Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[boshea]

Master Luo JinHua doing the same Jiang style. The music is cheesy, but I love the form...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=icwEuTHsDKM
I actually have this video... he breaks each part down into segments in the later parts, showing some of the fajing inherent in the form. Might look 'wushu'ish from the short video, but it looks like he's got a very good grasp on the principles and applications!



Nice video clip! But, what do you mean the music is cheesy? I quite like it! :p

[Chain Whip]

We have seen Pa Kua and Tai Chi clips from Master Grooms and Bruce. Both from Atlanta. Can someone in KY post a Pa Kua and/or Tai Chi clip of Master Leonard or Master Price?

[Baqualin]

We have seen Pa Kua and Tai Chi clips from Master Grooms and Bruce. Both from Atlanta. Can someone in KY post a Pa Kua and/or Tai Chi clip of Master Leonard or Master Price?

M. Grooms & Bruce posted their own clips on youtube.......EML has no You Tube clips nor any desire to....also, he could care less about any of this (including the marketing part MK)
BQ

[Chain Whip]

So, is anyone in KY willing to put their Pa Kua and Tai Chi up on YouTube for scrutiny?

[Judge Pen]

So, is anyone in KY willing to put their Pa Kua and Tai Chi up on YouTube for scrutiny?

I'm sure Golden Tiger or Baqualin can't speak for everyone in KY just like I can't speak for anyone in Tennessee other than me and you can't speak for anyone in ATL other than you.

[Baqualin]

So, is anyone in KY willing to put their Pa Kua and Tai Chi up on YouTube for scrutiny?

I do, but I will have to get someone to film me first...when I do no one will know it's me until later....I want non biased opinions.
BQ

[Chain Whip]

I'm sure Golden Tiger or Baqualin can't speak for everyone in KY just like I can't speak for anyone in Tennessee other than me and you can't speak for anyone in ATL other than you.

Sorry - wasn't suggesting that they could or should. Just looking for a KY or a TN or a TX or a CO version.

I do, but I will have to get someone to film me first...when I do no one will know it's me until later....I want non biased opinions.

Good idea, it should be interesting!

When Bruce first invited people at Empty Flower to look at Master Grooms' Tai Chi DVD trailer - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPMbU63Y6Gg - no one seemed to know it was a SD guy. Just a skilled guy with frog buttons. Here are some of the comments:

Quote:
Looks pretty good. What is your teacher's name? Some of the apps shown are pretty simple, but I think that is alright cause it be a video. I envy his squatting SW.


Quote:
Those slow kicks were great!

Quote:
Nice looking vide - good to see a video of somebody promoting the 'Quan' of Taijiquan, espcially with all the no-touch nonsense doing the rounds of the video section at the moment. Looked like good solid applications.

Quote:
Your Sifu has excellent skill,and flexiblity...i like his simple and direct application's...
i also like his teaching style relaxed and straight foward...

Quote:
He moves really, really good. Very smooth and he sure knows how to use his structure and balance. Yes, the apps are very direct and simple, but also very basic. (Both advanced and basic methods can of course be direct and simple.) I would like to see more of what you do in class. Maybe you could take down the camera again and show more stuff from your teacher, apps that he think is to advanced to show here?

[Judge Pen]

Shoot, I would be embarrassed of any of my internal stuff aside from the Hsing Ie. Not that its that great, but its better than my pa kua or tai chi....

Nice finds on the quotes. I don't get over to empty flower very often, how did their attitude change after they found out he was SD?

[Chain Whip]

Pretty much ignored it and went on to the next thing. It's funny that Bruce goes all over the world meeting with people in SD or not in SD and everyone seems to respect his skill and knowledge.

[Judge Pen]

Pretty much ignored it and went on to the next thing. It's funny that Bruce goes all over the world meeting with people in SD or not in SD and everyone seems to respect his skill and knowledge.

I've crossed hands with him, and I respect his skill.

[Chain Whip]

It is hard not to. He can really apply what he has learned. Sometimes Bruce does not get the credit he deserves because of his size.

[Leto]

I made a discovery that may be interesting for some

I've been looking over the copies of the handwritten notes than GM The passes out for forms. I dug up my notes from "pick and play fist", to try to decipher the handwritten characters in that title.

We had talked about how our pick and play fist was very similar if not the same as "Zhai Yao" in other mantis styles. Well, the character for "pick", which GM The spells "tze" is spelled "zhai" in pinyin romanization. and the character which he translated as "sua", or shua in pinyin, for play, is extremely close to the character for "yao", or "important, vital".

摘zhai (to borrow, to pick (flowers, fruit); to pluck, to take, to select)
要yao (important, vital, to want, to be going, must) /
耍 shua (play with, to juggle)

because of the way the handwritten character look, it could very easily be either one. and if GM The inherited them this way, handwritten, from his teacher...

This form very well may have originally been called "zhai yao" an "important selection" or summary of mantis techniques.

[sean_stonehart]

What is taught as "Pick & Play" is very similar to the 4th Zhai Yao routine.

[brucereiter]

Shoot, I would be embarrassed of any of my internal stuff aside from the Hsing Ie. Not that its that great, but its better than my pa kua or tai chi....

Nice finds on the quotes. I don't get over to empty flower very often, how did their attitude change after they found out he was SD?

for the most part people accept it for what it is. only a few people had a strong bias against.

[brucereiter]

Was not too impressed by Grooms he did not seem to apply the basic principles even with the placing of the feet and why was he doing a wrist lock takedown already on the ground ? any students of M Grooms out there ? KC


i am a student of sr master grooms.

[brucereiter]

We have seen Pa Kua and Tai Chi clips from Master Grooms and Bruce. Both from Atlanta. Can someone in KY post a Pa Kua and/or Tai Chi clip of Master Leonard or Master Price?

i posted myself to foster conversation and can only speak for myself. if others feel comfortable putting videos of their practice up it would be interesting to see. i do understand some are just not interested.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Shaolin-Doiscool,

First...I will say this to you...as well as ALL SD students: Any MA which increases in its students a sense of self discipline, respect for oneself/others, balancing of emotions, respect for human life/dignity is..by the very nature of wanting to instill in its students, those qualities..honorable. And I applaud that...not because I am a sifu(I hope to one day however)..but as a human being.

Any critiques of SD I may offer are not related to the above. My criticisms have been based on factual innacuracies. If a historian wrote a book entitled : "World War 1: from 1974-1984"....well..lets just say that most people unless they were under the influence of hallucinogens would say "uh..back up there buddy..WW1 happened before those years"

"thanks for taking the time to reply. i do not mind someone respectfully disagreeing with me and often times debate leads to mutual benefit."

I agree and I also acknowledge that I've been overtly defensive at times..but not because I think SD is the worst art one could study(that honor..may very well belong to "Temple Kungfu")..but I prefer to not have a revisionist history in any area of life..not just kung fu. So when SKT says that he was the "only person ever to have 2 tablets " in honor of him by Shaolin..I just think "aaahh..yeah..and the point is? 2 tablets in honor of what I might add?"


"for example you say: <<Even the fastest style of tai-chi is still ALOT slower than most external arts. If you do Yang style tai chi at Choy Li Fut speed..you have missed the point.>>

how do you figure that to be true? take fair lady works shuttles as the yang tai chi chuan example and what ever external method is a similar block/punch type of movement."



Yes..but you see you are placing emphasis on the MOVEMENT rather than the concept. It is the concept that is key. One could even make the argument that you could take movements from ANY PATTERN of a form of ANY of the kung fu styles known for their external force(I would even include my current style of 8 step preying mantis) and if you slowed it down and modified the intent/breathing/generation of force/mind intent..I could almost create my own form of tai-chi...

"are you implying that a "tai chi" person should apply the movement slower than as you said a choy li fut person? (i might be misunderstanding you)"

Absolutely!!!!

"i think speed is important to all martial arts.

delivering the max mass at the highest rate ... ... ..."



I will defer to Bruce Lee himself when he gave an interview on DVD when he compared the force felt between a "Karate punch" versus a "Kung fu punch". I would enthusuatically recommend picking up a copy..


"are you implying that i do not practice yang tai chi chuan? i say that i do"

I don't study Yang Tai-Chi so I can't say w/ authority. Ask a YTC master/sifu.

[Judge Pen]

but you see you are placing emphasis on the MOVEMENT rather than the concept. It is the concept that is key. One could even make the argument that you could take movements from ANY PATTERN of a form of ANY of the kung fu styles known for their external force(I would even include my current style of 8 step preying mantis) and if you slowed it down and modified the intent/breathing/generation of force/mind intent..I could almost create my own form of tai-chi...

"are you implying that a "tai chi" person should apply the movement slower than as you said a choy li fut person? (i might be misunderstanding you)"

Absolutely!!!!

"i think speed is important to all martial arts.

delivering the max mass at the highest rate ... ... ..."



I will defer to Bruce Lee himself when he gave an interview on DVD when he compared the force felt between a "Karate punch" versus a "Kung fu punch". I would enthusuatically recommend picking up a copy..


"are you implying that i do not practice yang tai chi chuan? i say that i do"

I don't study Yang Tai-Chi so I can't say w/ authority. Ask a YTC master/sifu.


I agree with this concept. I suspect that, based on their applications, so would Master Grooms (the subject of much of this discussion) or my teachers who are not gentle or slow when they teach their applications to tai chi.

Now its an oversimplification to say you can create a tai chi form by slowing down any form or movement to tai chi speed (there's a lot more going on internally than just slowing down the movement to concentrate on the body mechanics behind the movement) but assuming that you observe the tai chi principles of structure and chi cultivation, then I suppose that you would be correct in a sense.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

"or my teachers who are not gentle"

There is this misnomer that just because TC is gentle to the touch that it is somehow not powerful. Power can be manifested in many ways.




"or slow when they teach their applications to tai chi."

Certain styles of TC are faster or slower than others..it depends on the family. It is also a misnomer that(not that I'm saying you are saying this Judge Pen) TC is merely just a health based exercise..in actuality...I would never want to fight a tai chi master..it's just too diverse and unpredictable a fighting art. Like trying to grab "water...

""Now its an oversimplification to say you can create a tai chi form by slowing down"


One could slow something down to where it takes 1 hour to do one complete arm movement and STILL not cultivate any chi...

"any form or movement to tai chi speed (there's a lot more going on internally than just slowing down the movement to concentrate on the body mechanics behind the movement)"


However..and this is not a contractiction to my above statement per se..but there is a certain axiomatic tendency to expend more force and deplete more chi as one goes faster...and faster..


"but assuming that you observe the tai chi principles of structure and chi cultivation, then I suppose that you would be correct in a sense."

If you take the concept of Dim Mak and reverse it insofar as taking the acupuncture meridians..one could take the opinion that Dim Mak is reversing the intent of circulating the chi for health promotion. In actuality..the damage inflicted by a master who truly understands the genesis of internal energy would be far more longer lasting than the Karate sensei who would try to shatter your spine to bits with one blow.(insofar as long term organ damage, disruption of consciousness,etc.)

[brucereiter]

erasmus e,

should a tai chi chuan person be fast and powerful?

[Judge Pen]

EM

I think we are in agreement. Tai chi is a devastating fighting art first and formost. Its techniques are fluid and can be yielding when appropriate, but they are not applied in a slow manner like Yang tai chi. They are fast and powerful when the time comes.

[arinathos.valin]

Shaolin-Doiscool,

First...I will say this to you...as well as ALL SD students: Any MA which increases in its students a sense of self discipline, respect for oneself/others, balancing of emotions, respect for human life/dignity is..by the very nature of wanting to instill in its students, those qualities..honorable. And I applaud that...not because I am a sifu(I hope to one day however)..but as a human being.

Any critiques of SD I may offer are not related to the above. My criticisms have been based on factual innacuracies. If a historian wrote a book entitled : "World War 1: from 1974-1984"....well..lets just say that most people unless they were under the influence of hallucinogens would say "uh..back up there buddy..WW1 happened before those years"

"thanks for taking the time to reply. i do not mind someone respectfully disagreeing with me and often times debate leads to mutual benefit."

I agree and I also acknowledge that I've been overtly defensive at times..but not because I think SD is the worst art one could study(that honor..may very well belong to "Temple Kungfu")..but I prefer to not have a revisionist history in any area of life..not just kung fu. So when SKT says that he was the "only person ever to have 2 tablets " in honor of him by Shaolin..I just think "aaahh..yeah..and the point is? 2 tablets in honor of what I might add?"




I think that was very well put, Erasmus.

[brucereiter]

Just a slip though i would expect more of a televised/computerized demo BY A Senior Master. I feel there is too much liberty with form. KC

do you have a video example of how you feel pakua should look?

what liberties do you feel were taken?

i have visited sd several schools in ky, tn, co, idaho, texas and of coarse atlanta and each person who i have seen teaching it and practicing it have done it very differently even within the same school. are they taking liberties?

[Mas Judt]

I think you will find that even in the non-SD oriented schools...

[kwaichang]

Do you have a copy of the 64 rules of PaKua /? Form stems from the rules and they were not exhibited even with the base , stepping. KC

[Erasmus Mingatt]

"do you have a video example of how you feel pakua should look? "

I realize you didn't address this ? to me..but I thought I may take the initiative a little since in 8 step preying mantis...monkey kung fu footwork you would see in a style such as 7 star preying mantis was replaced with Ba Gua/Hsing-I footwork.(I am still learning so I'll admit..I'm not sure if it was REPLACED with BG/HS-I or if BG-HS-I footwork was ADDED to it). I'll ask sifu.

Anyways..

My sifu made the analogy that the circles in all 3 arts look different but ultimately reach the same goal.

BA GUA--think of a circle.. placed on the ground. Think of someone putting a sombrero(mexican hat) flat on the ground and walking around the circumference. In this..one learns the 8 directions of fighting.

Hsing-I/Shing-Yi-- think of a circle but instead thinking of moving circular but forward..such as if one were mimicking the circle of a bicycle tire moving round and round or a car tire moving circular but forward.

Tai Chi Chuan--think of the electrons/protons(I always get them confused) of an atom cirulating all around the orbit of an atoms in multiple directions at once.

This is not the best analogy..but it's the only one I can think of for now...

[brucereiter]

Do you have a copy of the 64 rules of PaKua /? Form stems from the rules and they were not exhibited even with the base , stepping. KC

hi kc,

yes i do have jiang rong qiao's rules as translated and organized by gm sin the'.

i disagree with your observation that they were "not" exhibited. as many of the concepts were to a certain extent displayed. remember i am a student and am not claiming to do things perfectly or to have a perfect understanding but i do exhibit some of the shen fa (body method) as advised but the "64 rules".

i understand you may have a bias against my teacher/school based on many post from you over the years, there is no need for that i am just one student who is sharing what he understands. take it for what it is or leave it.

can or will you show me how you express the "64 rules" with your form? if you can not i would think you are not in a place to tell me in the absolute terms you used what i am doing or not doing with my form.

best,

bruce

p.s. i am trying to build unity between all of our schools.

[kwaichang]

Form like a Dragon
Expression of a Monkey
Sit like a Tiger
Flip like an Eagle

When stepping forward do not raise them too high do it like you are dragging them in the Mud The center or heart of the foot must be hollow toes and heel must hit at the same time. Just a few of the rules not exhibited. KC

[Chain Whip]

KC

I'm guessing this means you won't be posting a video of your Pa Kua - what a surprise!!

[brucereiter]

Form like a Dragon
Expression of a Monkey
Sit like a Tiger
Flip like an Eagle

When stepping forward do not raise them too high do it like you are dragging them in the Mud The center or heart of the foot must be hollow toes and heel must hit at the same time. Just a few of the rules not exhibited. KC

hi kc,

these are all valid things to pay attention to when practicing pakua.
i think i am doing these things as i said to a certain point.

the way you are making it seem with your comments is that you think i am on the wrong track with my practice. i guess you will not understand unless you can feel what i am doing. i hope we can meet and exchange ideas in the near future. which school do you go to?

there are several ways to walk what is shown in my clip is not mud stepping it is heal toe stepping.

do you have or will you make a video to demonstrate what you are saying is lacking in my practice? i am open for advice but i think you are not giving advice you may be sharing your bias.

like i said, i would like to help all of the schools/students communicate better and share information. we are all students and will always no matter how skilled we become be able to learn more and refine what we already know.

best,

bruce

[tattooedmonk]

hi kc,

these are all valid things to pay attention to when practicing pakua.
i think i am doing these things as i said to a certain point.

the way you are making it seem with your comments is that you think i am on the wrong track with my practice. i guess you will not understand unless you can feel what i am doing. i hope we can meet and exchange ideas in the near future. which school do you go to?

there are several ways to walk what is shown in my clip is not mud stepping it is heal toe stepping.

do you have or will you make a video to demonstrate what you are saying is lacking in my practice? i am open for advice but i think you are not giving advice you may be sharing your bias.

like i said, i would like to help all of the schools/students communicate better and share information. we are all students and will always no matter how skilled we become be able to learn more and refine what we already know.

best,

bruce You can still do heel /toe stepping but you should be doing the mud stepping as well. The rear foot should graze the inside of the front calf as you are stepping forward,( you should be scraping mud off of your rear foot as it passes the calf),( you need to actually touch the calf ), once you place it back down you plant with your heel then with your toe.

reverse if you are stepping backwards.

alot of people think that you should be placing both the heel and toe down at the same time but this will look and feel like you are stomping . It only appears to be landing at the same time. You are still going heel to toe it is just very subtle and unnoticable to the untrained eye.

[kwaichang]

I do not have a vid I will be glad to W/O with you guys though. None the less the rules do not say heel toe it says at the same time. I did not write the rules etc. I am sorry you feel I am bias but I am if the rules as I read them are not followed I dont care who the individual is. The form is of M Grooms and unless that is you I dont feel you should take my comments personally. KC PS if you raise the foot to the height of the calf perhaps that is too high , and in that case it would look like stomping try it ankle height instead. The rules say through the mud not over the mud. KC

[kwaichang]

I will show you what I think and the rules , my vid would not exhibit perfect form of the rules and would misrepresent what I am trying to convey through the rules with form. I am not perfect in form only am trying to get closer to the ideal. KC:)

[Baqualin]

First thanks to Bruce and everyone reaching out from all the schools, that's what it's all about.....we should learn from each other...bottom line... we all have the same teacher GMS

OK, Classical Pakua is very flowing like Tai Chi...never stops or hesitates...strikes are not accented, they flow in the form like water (not in application, just in the form)....stepping is also flowing, kinda like KC said through the mud...by doing this you can place toe & heel at the same time...gliding.....& your pants should brush between the ankle and calf, any higher and you look like your hopping (which is very common with most SD people). You should also see in the form what your attacking, what your attacking with, what your locking up or breaking and so forth.
BQ

Keep in mind That we're talking about Classical only.

[tattooedmonk]

I do not have a vid I will be glad to W/O with you guys though. None the less the rules do not say heel toe it says at the same time. I did not write the rules etc. I am sorry you feel I am bias but I am if the rules as I read them are not followed I dont care who the individual is. The form is of M Grooms and unless that is you I dont feel you should take my comments personally. KC PS if you raise the foot to the height of the calf perhaps that is too high , and in that case it would look like stomping try it ankle height instead. The rules say through the mud not over the mud. KCI was taught more or less the same thing, but following the rules I have found that brushing the arch of the foot along the lower part of the calf is along the line of the rules as the are printed in many publications( including the CSC manual), to create a proper distance between each step. Like I said it has the appearence and the feel of placing it down at one time. It is almost silmutanious, meaning that the heel to toe stepping is more exagerated in Tai Ji quan than in Ba Gua Zhang.


Another reason I say this is becuase if you are walking through mud you have to clean off you shoes as you go so they do not bog you down , which wil eventually happen. and the only way to do this is by taking it out of the mud slightly to scrape it off. I think sometime the rules are taken too literally and other times not enough, if at all .

If you were walking through the mud you would eventually get bogged down and not beable to move because of all the mud right??

I am just thinking realistically that is all.

This is how the weight is distributed evenly from the back leg to the front . It is ever so slight . This also follows proper body mechanics, and use of the kinetic chain from hips, upper legs , knees, lower legs , ankles, and feet.

The heel to to toe thing happens so close to the ground I would say that you almost do place it down at the same time.

I feel this is where the two arts over lap.

Just my experience . Not to say either one is wrong or right , just different , we are SD brothers.:D

I say split the difference.

[JonathanD]

I know Master Grooms is quite knowledgeable in the arts( in general ), however, I heard recently that he got the idea in his head that he was the foremost authority on internal in SD.:rolleyes:


I heard that exact same thing. Quite a bold statement if you ask me.

[JonathanD]

Do you have a copy of the 64 rules of PaKua /? Form stems from the rules and they were not exhibited even with the base , stepping. KC

I do, and it's an intense read.

[Chain Whip]

First thanks to Bruce and everyone reaching out from all the schools, that's what it's all about.....we should learn from each other...bottom line... we all have the same teacher GMS

Might be the best thing any SD person has said on this forum.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Nope. Not even close. Here's the best posts (not SD people, though):


just remember to shave your runway! :eek:

You coming in for a landing?

[kwaichang]

I have been accused of not being a team player as it were in SD and by being critical of M Grooms. I re read the rules slowly so as not to miss anything and looked at the movie of M Grooms. If calling things the way I see them is disrespectful then OK. But if one has the rules and understands them and still does the form different , on purpose, than the rules call for, then that in itself is what makes others question the quality and realness of SD. If we are all students of GMT " those of us that are" and those continue to perform it "wrong" that is sad for what ever the reason. How can 4 different Senior Masters do the same form so different if they all know the rules ?? KC

[synack]

I see this all the time in SD. I know in the CSC, you might have 3 different people show you the same thing. ALL DIFFERENTLY. VERY annoying.

I don't think this is limited to M Grooms. It's a problem with the system. Too much to learn in to short of time.

[Baqualin]

I see this all the time in SD. I know in the CSC, you might have 3 different people show you the same thing. ALL DIFFERENTLY. VERY annoying.

I don't think this is limited to M Grooms. It's a problem with the system. Too much to learn in to short of time.

Your very correct...I see it in all schools including ours...not just SD/CSC....GMS gives us the tools...it's up to us to learn how to use them....he wants us to research & study...as I said before, most people in the system are everyday working people who have a life outside of SD/CSC & don't practice & study outside of their class. My anwser to to much to fast is to SLOW down smell the roses....work you way to Blk belt at you own pace then decide what you like best and focus on that. Regarding the differences in the masters...people are people.....everyone has their take on things and it's hard to over come that when the system has got as large as SD/CSC... the ego differences will not let everyone work as a unit.....GMS has tried to standardize everything, but everybody wants to do their own thing...now look what we have now.....politics!!:D
BQ

I'm really glad to see all the students from both sides trying to get to know each other...that can change things.
BQ

[Chain Whip]

Your very correct...I see it in all schools including ours...not just SD/CSC....GMS gives us the tools...it's up to us to learn how to use them....he wants us to research & study...as I said before, most people in the system are everyday working people who have a life outside of SD/CSC & don't practice & study outside of their class. My anwser to to much to fast is to SLOW down smell the roses....work you way to Blk belt at you own pace then decide what you like best and focus on that. Regarding the differences in the masters...people are people.....everyone has their take on things and it's hard to over come that when the system has got as large as SD/CSC... the ego differences will not let everyone work as a unit.....GMS has tried to standardize everything, but everybody wants to do their own thing...now look what we have now.....politics!!
BQ

I'm really glad to see all the students from both sides trying to get to know each other...that can change things.
BQ

Great post BQ. Very well said. The differences between various people in SD should not create animosity. Obviously, GMT has a different outlook. He signed the Master level certificates for all of the Master’s in our art. The problem stems from teachers saying “this way is right – everyone else is wrong” A great example was a few years back EM Leonard taught a Tai Chi Broadsword Two-Man Set seminar in Atlanta. It was a fair bit different than what SM Grooms was doing – not bad – not wrong – just different. A couple of years later SM Grooms has to teach the same form to people in the Internal Program. To try avoiding any controversy he pulled out the video of him learning the form with EM Mingione as GMT talks them through it. He made sure that what was taught out was exactly what he learned from GMT. If you put the video of EM Leonard teaching Tai Chi Broadsword Two-Man set next to the one of GMT teaching it, they have several significant differences. SM Grooms passed on exactly what he was taught by his teacher. SM Grooms doesn’t think EM Leonard is wrong but he has to pass on what HE was taught.

[kwaichang]

A persons application of a technique may be different but the technique should be based upon what they are taught and the rules . If this is done we should all do the technique the same or close. Much closer than some of the observations I have made. So how do these MAJOR changes come about. ?? I think it is ego everyone wants to do their own thing, they dont call their art SD as GMT calls it they call it something else like Shaolin Kung fu or CSC or Shaolin Tao. Everyone wants to be the big fish. If this offends I appologize but I just call it the way I see it. There is GMT then EM Leonard then EM Smith then the others I am not sure of the total order . Sorry guys but that is the pecking order and that is how it is. It is based on rank and time in the art. PERIOD. Not vague claims. KC As for me and mine I follow that order. I respect them all but show my allegance to GMT and his students based upon their rank and time in the art and their allegance to GMT and SD. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'm not trying to troll you KC, or start up anything, but that's even what GM The' did. His brother split off to teach another program with a different structure, called Chung Yen (apparently the name of the school in Indonesia). GM The' called his Shaolin-do. I'm willing to bet neither is a reproduction of the Indonesian school, and I'm sure the Indonesian school was not a reproduction of the way GGM Ie Chang Ming learned from GGGM Su Kong. Just like I'm sure the CSC isn't verbatim Shaolin-do.

Labeling it ego shouldn't really be pejorative. Ego is I. The person practicing the art is the art in action. It's always going to change according to personal preference, physical ability, and geography. Nobody is the same. Some day GM The' is going to pass on (hopefully far in the future). But definately in our lifetimes. Will SD and CSC remain bonded?

From hints of tensions on this board, and rumors that circulate, I'd speculate they'll just co-exist without any interaction whatsoever outside of private liaisons. I'm not trying to be an @$$hole....it just doesn't seem (from tensions on this board, and various PM's), that there would be an heir to the system that would be as accepting and unifying a force as GM The'.

What will happen then?
What's your opinion? Again...not meant to troll. Just thinking.

[tattooedmonk]

that I am of the same mind as BQ , we all are here for the same reason and have been influenced and taught by GMS, without him we would not know or have what it is that we do. Everyone is going to find differences in their material because of interpretations and perceptions . This does not make one person right and another person wrong, just different .

As long as we follow by the rules and guidlines set out by the ancient masters we could make MMA into a traditional and internal art!!!:eek::p;):D

[kwaichang]

But, if you are taught a straight punch 20 years ago in a form, for example, and the rule says the elbow brushes the side, then why is the punch changed to a hook punch. When a student whatever the level changes what they are taught then something is lost. What I have seen from the upper powers is a MAJOR change for the sake of change. This to me spells disaster for our style as it discredits us all. The changes I am talking about are blatant. I am not talking application. Later KC

[brucereiter]

But, if you are taught a straight punch 20 years ago in a form, for example, and the rule says the elbow brushes the side, then why is the punch changed to a hook punch. When a student whatever the level changes what they are taught then something is lost. What I have seen from the upper powers is a MAJOR change for the sake of change. This to me spells disaster for our style as it discredits us all. The changes I am talking about are blatant. I am not talking application. Later KC

kc,

what do you think some of the "major" changes to forms are with yang/chen tai chi chuan, classical "original" pakua, hsingi?

best,

bruce

p.s. take a look at some more of my practice if you like. some of what is shown is not so good and some of what is shown is ok.

http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

[kwaichang]

Your form seems OK I think if you used your legs more and dropped your center your deflection would be more effective. Just an opinion . also I feel the changes are more in the Classical pakua and Taichi Yang. I have not seen others Chen so cant judge. Mostly the changes seem to be in the other external stuff 2-5th Black level. KC:cool::D:eek::confused::):mad::p:o:(

[brucereiter]

I have been accused of not being a team player as it were in SD and by being critical of M Grooms. I re read the rules slowly so as not to miss anything and looked at the movie of M Grooms. If calling things the way I see them is disrespectful then OK. But if one has the rules and understands them and still does the form different , on purpose, than the rules call for, then that in itself is what makes others question the quality and realness of SD. If we are all students of GMT " those of us that are" and those continue to perform it "wrong" that is sad for what ever the reason. How can 4 different Senior Masters do the same form so different if they all know the rules ?? KC

hi kc,

here are several examples of jiangs rong qiao "original" form pakua aka "classical pakua"

you will note each person demonstrates different ways of approaching the same style.


starting with my understanding, this is me ... i am no expert as you may see but i am getting better all the time ... lol ...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=tKOjfBuc5TA
http://youtube.com/watch?v=eI3mMhNMbLU

below are a few clips, some are known masters, teachers and some are just plain old students.

Jin Liangchan
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dCn7pOKMW0Y

novell bell
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q5qi5TTCUvU

ben hill
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-UhZ3PYOAt8

m grooms
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4044921926652657971&q=pakua&total=271&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=7

Luo Jinhua
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icwEuTHsDKM

if anyone has any other demonstrations of this style of pakua they can link please do ...

best,

bruce

p.s.

this is just for entertainment ... lol ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIYrIgy5t-I

[brucereiter]

Your form seems OK I think if you used your legs more and dropped your center your deflection would be more effective. Just an opinion . also I feel the changes are more in the Classical pakua and Taichi Yang. I have not seen others Chen so cant judge. Mostly the changes seem to be in the other external stuff 2-5th Black level. KC:cool::D:eek::confused::):mad::p:o:(

true about dropping my center ...

can you explain some of the changes/differences with yang 64 and with classical pakua.

the external stuff i really do not know about ...

best,

bruce

[kwaichang]

When I say changes I mean differences, some train Yang 64 at a 30 minute pace some 20, at times the angle and stance are different some do it with the front and back foot in line and some off line. some have more waist and others do not. These are just observations I have made, also Hsing Ie seems to be the one with the biggest differences. For example the three Body stance seems to have a different meaning in Colorado Tennessee Texas and Atlanta from what I have seen. I try to maintain the triangle of my stance. if it is a short bostance then it does not maintain the definition of the 3 body stance. As I was taught. KC

[brucereiter]

When I say changes I mean differences, some train Yang 64 at a 30 minute pace some 20, at times the angle and stance are different some do it with the front and back foot in line and some off line. some have more waist and others do not. These are just observations I have made, also Hsing Ie seems to be the one with the biggest differences. For example the three Body stance seems to have a different meaning in Colorado Tennessee Texas and Atlanta from what I have seen. I try to maintain the triangle of my stance. if it is a short bostance then it does not maintain the definition of the 3 body stance. As I was taught. KC

i have also seen very different understandings expressed from the various schools i have visited.

i have heard some say they practice the yang 64 for at a pace that takes them 30-50 minutes to complete. i think that is too slow.

i do it 3 basic ways:
"fast" round about 4-5 minutes
"normal" round 10-13 minutes
"long" round about 20 minutes.

in my practice i will do yang 64 back to back several times. sometimes i will go very slow pace and others a bit fast but the important part in my opinion is not how slow i go but how connected my movements are.

i understand your thought on san ti, i have observed many versions of it from all the "groups" you mentioned. i think the height of the "bo stance" is not as important as the body alignment. but you should do it as you are taught and also as you discover from practicing what you were taught.

another question i will repeat is do you think gmt could have taught (lets use yang 64 as the example) differently to the various masters/teachers/students that he has taught one on one or in a class setting.

best

bruce

[Golden Tiger]

another question i will repeat is do you think gmt could have taught (lets use yang 64 as the example) differently to the various masters/teachers/students that he has taught one on one or in a class setting.


Move for move, yes. Master Sin has never been a big stickler for "this hand must go right here " everytime as opposed to Master Hiang who was. And there will always be some variation when someone learns and does a form. Personally, I think spending a lot of time on it is missing the forest for the trees.

But having said that, I can see a lot of differences in the forms from when they were first taught (yes, I was there for most of them) and drilled and drilled and drilled and some of the versions today. I think what happened is a dilution effect. Some popped up to the Sports Center, learned something once, took notes (this was in the days of 200lb camcorders mind you) then never took the time to soilidify the foundation of what the particular form had to offer.

So it comes as no suprise that when some of us see obvious additions, subtractions and just plain wrong stuff being done, we do stop and just shake our heads at it.

[Baqualin]

Move for move, yes. Master Sin has never been a big stickler for "this hand must go right here " everytime as opposed to Master Hiang who was. And there will always be some variation when someone learns and does a form. Personally, I think spending a lot of time on it is missing the forest for the trees.

But having said that, I can see a lot of differences in the forms from when they were first taught (yes, I was there for most of them) and drilled and drilled and drilled and some of the versions today. I think what happened is a dilution effect. Some popped up to the Sports Center, learned something once, took notes (this was in the days of 200lb camcorders mind you) then never took the time to soilidify the foundation of what the particular form had to offer.

So it comes as no suprise that when some of us see obvious additions, subtractions and just plain wrong stuff being done, we do stop and just shake our heads at it.

You always pop in just to show how smart you are.;)

[Daniel09]

I wish I could learn this stuff properly, but I don't have anyone or anything to learn by. Everything I can find only explains the concept and I can't afford to go anywhere.

On a happier note, I've figured out how to fall properly (aka without hurting myself). :D

[kwaichang]

I originally stated SD in 1981 at that time the first 6 of 1-30 were taught in 6 months. Maybe the speed it is taught attributes to the differences. Not the amount of material KC:D

[Leto]

yes KC, I think you are right. Now they try to teach over 20 long forms in less than 2 years, not to mention all the other beginning material. It's too much. I really wish there could have been more time spent on drills and conditioning for the various styles and weapons. The way it's taught in the west, it's like "here's this month's form, hurry up and learn it. we're spending four weeks learning this martial arts style, next month it's something different. So you better come to every class if you don't want to miss something!". I spent three years doing it that way, and stopped. Now I've backtracked to spend the last two years on my own, internalizing the stuff I learned, mostly the material through first black, and some forms I learned from GM The. I don't plan on re-entering the "system" any time soon...I have enough material to keep me occupied for a long time.
There is a wealth of awesome application just in the black tiger forms, which takes a lot of practice to master. There is no way one month can get you anywhere close to knowing it all. (I realize that the forms are revisited every year at the same time, but doing 20 things once a year is a very slow and inefficient way to learn. It would take you at least ten years doing it that way to become as proficient as if you spent one solid year practicing it. )

The average student would be a lot more solid if they had the opportunity to train the way you guys did "back in the day". Someone should do something about that ;)

[tattooedmonk]

yes KC, I think you are right. Now they try to teach over 20 long forms in less than 2 years, not to mention all the other beginning material. It's too much. I really wish there could have been more time spent on drills and conditioning for the various styles and weapons. The way it's taught in the west, it's like "here's this month's form, hurry up and learn it. we're spending four weeks learning this martial arts style, next month it's something different. So you better come to every class if you don't want to miss something!". I spent three years doing it that way, and stopped. Now I've backtracked to spend the last two years on my own, internalizing the stuff I learned, mostly the material through first black, and some forms I learned from GM The. I don't plan on re-entering the "system" any time soon...I have enough material to keep me occupied for a long time.
There is a wealth of awesome application just in the black tiger forms, which takes a lot of practice to master. There is no way one month can get you anywhere close to knowing it all. (I realize that the forms are revisited every year at the same time, but doing 20 things once a year is a very slow and inefficient way to learn. It would take you at least ten years doing it that way to become as proficient as if you spent one solid year practicing it. )

The average student would be a lot more solid if they had the opportunity to train the way you guys did "back in the day". Someone should do something about that ;)BINGO!!!:D;):cool:

[kwaichang]

When I learned the 1-30 I tried to do each one 500 times then the next etc. I feel 1st BB should take 5 years so as to promote a good foundation. Many years ago I had a teacher that made you do the forms you had learned for the previous belt before learning the next , we didnt even get to see the next form until we had done that . KC

[Daniel09]

What are the 1-30? And can they be explained in text so that I could try it?

[kungfujunky]

number 1 block punch block down step

got it?

[Daniel09]

I think so. What's a down step and what kind of block? I'm not knowledgable of what the names for different activities are.

[tattooedmonk]

I think so. What's a down step and what kind of block? I'm not knowledgable of what the names for different activities are.This might help a little more than that. # 1. Step forward into a bow and arrow stance ( gong bu). If the right leg is forward then the left arm should be out in front doing a horizontal fist punch ( shoulder height) and the right hand should be pulled into your hip (Do not rest it on your hip), next, the left arm is going to horizontally block high, above your head at a right angle as the right arm thrusts forward into a horizontal fist punch( where the previous fist was) then you are going to block down with both of your forearms about waist height and at a 45 degree angle, then step forward............ Make sure your hips , shoulders ,and feet are square and in alignment. Meaning that you should be able to draw a line from your right foot , hip, and shoulder. Same for the other side. Get it??

[Golden Tiger]

If the right leg is forward then the left arm should be out in front doing a horizontal fist punch ( shoulder height) and the right hand should be pulled into your hip (Do not rest it on your hip), next, the left arm is going to horizontally block high, above your head at a right angle The blocking hand should stop at the temple, palm out, knuckles aligned slighty behind the corner of the eyeas the right arm thrusts forward into a horizontal fist punch( where the previous fist was)while rotating the shoulders from a perpindicular line of the hips to a straight line, beginning the drive from the left foot, through the hips, finally to the shoulders (serial linkage) then you are going to block down with both of your forearms about waist height the left hand should make an arcing path from the head to rest near the left hip, the right also making an arc to the outside in, snapping the fist to palm up to snap the forearm just prior to the stop, stopping in line with the body, elbow pinky to thumb length from the bottom rib, bent at a 45 deg. angle, fist slightly below the line of sightand at a 45 degree angle, then step forward............ Make sure your hips , shoulders ,and feet are square and in alignment. Meaning that you should be able to draw a line from your right foot , hip, and shoulder. Same for the other side. Get it??


See, same form, taught a million times, practiced even more, with subtle differences....go figure

[Chain Whip]

When I learned the 1-30 I tried to do each one 500 times then the next etc. I feel 1st BB should take 5 years so as to promote a good foundation. Many years ago I had a teacher that made you do the forms you had learned for the previous belt before learning the next , we didnt even get to see the next form until we had done that . KC

Building a solid foundation with 1-30 is critical for development in our art. We don't care much about time in the art as much as what you have done since your first class. An athletically gifted student who works very hard should progress a lot faster than an average athlete who doesn't practice hard at all. (GMT went from white belt to 10th black in 18 years. So, traditionally advancement must have been merit based and not seniority based. Our current time frames say it is a minimum of 56 years to reach 10th Black - 16 years minimum to get to 5th Black)

Doing each short form 500 times is a great idea - as is actually doing all 49 I Chin Ching every week. We have always required that a person be able to do all the previous material. To test for 5th Black for instance, the evaluation covers all the test material for every earlier rank. You never know what order you will have to perform it in. You might do a couple of tiger forms followed by brown belt weapons and then have to do 1-30 out of sequence - something like odd numbers only ascending and then do the even numbers descending - and still get done in 3 minutes. You might have to start in the middle of a couple of forms. You have to do all 5 levels of Classical Pa Kua training, know all the I Chin Ching from memory. So, you essentially have to do all of your previous tests with additional twists to make it more difficult. GMT will only test on the material in that rank when he comes to town (be a really long test otherwise) But the person standing in front of GMT is capable of doing any and every earlier rank test - but better than when they initially tested . We pride ourselves on having all this material, but if you aren't still doing the things you learned 10 years ago then you really don't have that much material anyway. One of the best quotes about our system - I think it comes from EM Smith, is: "The best thing about our system is we have all this material. The worst thing about our system is we have all this material."

[Daniel09]

If the right leg is forward then the left arm should be out in front doing a horizontal fist punch ( shoulder height) and the right hand should be pulled into your hip (Do not rest it on your hip), next, the left arm is going to horizontally block high, above your head at a right angle The blocking hand should stop at the temple, palm out, knuckles aligned slighty behind the corner of the eyeas the right arm thrusts forward into a horizontal fist punch( where the previous fist was)while rotating the shoulders from a perpindicular line of the hips to a straight line, beginning the drive from the left foot, through the hips, finally to the shoulders (serial linkage) then you are going to block down with both of your forearms about waist height the left hand should make an arcing path from the head to rest near the left hip, the right also making an arc to the outside in, snapping the fist to palm up to snap the forearm just prior to the stop, stopping in line with the body, elbow pinky to thumb length from the bottom rib, bent at a 45 deg. angle, fist slightly below the line of sightand at a 45 degree angle, then step forward............ Make sure your hips , shoulders ,and feet are square and in alignment. Meaning that you should be able to draw a line from your right foot , hip, and shoulder. Same for the other side. Get it??


See, same form, taught a million times, practiced even more, with subtle differences....go figure

Thanks! That makes sense and I'll make sure to practice it to the point where a line can be drawn from my foot to hip to shoulder. This'll take me awhile to get somewhat correct so I'll probably inquire step two in a few weeks or possibly a month or two.

[tattooedmonk]

If the right leg is forward then the left arm should be out in front doing a horizontal fist punch ( shoulder height) and the right hand should be pulled into your hip (Do not rest it on your hip), next, the left arm is going to horizontally block high, above your head at a right angle The blocking hand should stop at the temple, palm out, knuckles aligned slighty behind the corner of the eyeas the right arm thrusts forward into a horizontal fist punch( where the previous fist was)while rotating the shoulders from a perpindicular line of the hips to a straight line, beginning the drive from the left foot, through the hips, finally to the shoulders (serial linkage) then you are going to block down with both of your forearms about waist height the left hand should make an arcing path from the head to rest near the left hip, the right also making an arc to the outside in, snapping the fist to palm up to snap the forearm just prior to the stop, stopping in line with the body, elbow pinky to thumb length from the bottom rib, bent at a 45 deg. angle, fist slightly below the line of sightand at a 45 degree angle, then step forward............ Make sure your hips , shoulders ,and feet are square and in alignment. Meaning that you should be able to draw a line from your right foot , hip, and shoulder. Same for the other side. Get it??


See, same form, taught a million times, practiced even more, with subtle differences....go figureThanks for your help!:D:cool:

[Shaolin Wookie]

Ouch!!!! I kicked the friggin' corner of my bed this morning when I was stumbling around, getting ready for work! I'm limping like a war vet with shrapnel in his foot.

Them dar beds is lethal weapons, ya' here!:mad:

Why do they have to be made of that super-metal adamantium bone-shattering alloy?

Right on the top of the foot, too. Not a usual stubbed toe. Not a good morning at all.

[John Dufresne]

OK GUYS I GUESS YOU HAVE ABOUT SAID IT ALL. I JUST WISH I HAD THE TIME WASTED BY US ALL TO TRAIN EVEN MORE IN SD. BUT ALAS I DO NOT AND I TOO HAVE CAST MY PEARLS BEFORE SWINE. YOU ALL SAY THAT SD IS NOT THE REAL DEAL BUT ALL YOU DO IS OFFER HERESAY AND A SMIDGEN A VERY SMALL SMIDGEN OF TRUTH AT BEST. SO SINCE YOU CANT PROVE OR DISPROVE ANYTHING LET ME SAY YOU ARE JUST JEALOUS.
I HAVE FOUND IN LIFE THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE ENVIOUS OF SOMETHING TYPICALLY TRY TO MAKE IT INTO A LIE OR SAY BAD OR UNTRUE THINGS, IT IS HUMAN NATURE. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE AN ITEMIZED LIST OF FALSEHOODS OF THE SD SYSTEM NUMBERED SO WE CAN DEBATE THEM 1 BY 1.
HOW ABOUT IT TWS I KNOW YOU BEST AND WHY YOU ARE SO DETERMINED TO SAY SD IS NOT FROM THE SHAO-LIN TEMPLES IS BEYOND ME YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE AN EGO . SO HERE IS ALL YOU GUYS CHANCE TO ITEMIZE AND PROVE YOUR WAY OF THINKING ONCE AND FOR ALL. THIS IS A CHALLENGE TO ALL WHO FEEL SD IS NOT SHAOLIN. KC:o

Hehehehe

Should we begin at 1?
Shaolin---------Chinese
Karate Do-----Japanese
or 2?
From Indonesia; neither place
or 3?
I was there!!
Oh Im sorry 1 more small bit of trivia- I spent the last 20 years travelling to and from China and I have been to North Shaolin as well as Putian (Southern Shaolin) I was the coach of the US Team to the first Nan Shaolin Competition in 1994; FYI no one knows him or SD or anything that resembles the forms they do.

I remember first hand being in Beijing while working out with the Beijing team when he brough a group from Lexington to china to errect a monument at the Shaolin Temple that was paid for by the students who traveled with them. Not because of some liniage to the Temple- anyone can buy a monument there-- they were trying to collect funds for restorations to the temple at that time. Many american schools have monuments there. But it was said to those students that the whole reason to traveled there was in honor of the rising of this monument in the name of SD. Some what decieving dont you think?I spoke with Chen Guan Shi (Monk at North Shaolin Hunan) he told me personally "they laughed when SD students demonstrated their forms" while they visited there.

Anyway sorry why am I even typing? What is the truth something that is said but not done or something done but not said? Everyone knows the truth- if we refuse to hear the truth its only because we have listed to lie's to long, we loose the ability to hear the truth.

[kwaichang]

How can we debate this and I guess you should be believed ?? Your point is ???? KC

[John Dufresne]

How can we debate this and I guess you should be believed ?? Your point is ???? KC

How can "we" debate? Well you cant- you were not there---I was -I dont have to prove or disprove!
"it is what it is"!
Are you a student? be one listen and be silent

[John Dufresne]

How can "we" debate? Well you cant- you were not there---I was -I dont have to prove or disprove!
"it is what it is"!
Are you a student? be one listen and be silent

Oh and one more thing you can debate all you want with other of this forum about what was or what might have happened. But you are talking to me- I refuse to hear lies by someone who has NOT A CLUE! who was not there- and dont tell me that you heard from someone who heard it from someone who taught someone else.
I am giving it to you straight--- If you choose to live in a fantasy go right ahead- the people of this forum were obviously trying to help you not hurt. Sometimes truth can be painful the further away we go.

[tattooedmonk]

So what ?? I mean people laugh and poke fun at just about anyone and/or anything. Some people will say it is real and some people will say it is made up, etc. But just because you come here all of a sudden and say things that many people before you have said , are we are just suppose to say"oh now we know SD is not real chinese martial arts ,etc.because this guy says so, case closed."???

Give it a rest already and get over yourself.:rolleyes:

I admire the skill that it takes to master wushu but I would laugh right in your face if you said you could use it to fight or defend yourself. At least we know that SD works for this purpose and we have a good time doing it and learning it , which is all that really matters. The stories legends , lineage ,etc. really do not matter in the grand scheme of things all that matters is that it works. :D

[kwaichang]

"Are you a student? be one listen and be silent. "

I am not your student and dont care to be . If you are who you say you are then you should have been taught respect and discipline 1st. You are just rude and arrogant. Not the personality of a true master. Wu Shu well I wont even comment on it not worth my time. KC

[MasterKiller]

Ouch!!!! I kicked the friggin' corner of my bed this morning when I was stumbling around, getting ready for work! I'm limping like a war vet with shrapnel in his foot.

Them dar beds is lethal weapons, ya' here!:mad:

Why do they have to be made of that super-metal adamantium bone-shattering alloy?

Right on the top of the foot, too. Not a usual stubbed toe. Not a good morning at all.

Do you live in a prison? Who the hell sleeps in a metal bed?

[Chain Whip]

I remember first hand being in Beijing while working out with the Beijing team when he brough a group from Lexington to china to errect a monument at the Shaolin Temple that was paid for by the students who traveled with them.

I spoke with Chen Guan Shi (Monk at North Shaolin Hunan) he told me personally "they laughed when SD students demonstrated their forms" while they visited there.

I hope you are better with your other "facts" than this. You are speaking of the 1992 Trip where the Soards - not GMT brought a group primarily from Denver – not Lexington and saw the unveiling of the marker paid for by the Soards -not the people on the trip. The Head Abbott was there and was kind and pleasant. There was no laughing at the demo (however most of it was pretty poor other than one Hua and the Drunken Spear form) it seems you are indicating that these "honorable" monks were so disingenuous as to laugh behind our backs instead of to GMT's face.

[John Dufresne]

I hope you are better with your other "facts" than this. You are speaking of the 1992 Trip where the Soards - not GMT brought a group primarily from Denver – not Lexington and saw the unveiling of the marker paid for by the Soards -not the people on the trip. The Head Abbott was there and was kind and pleasant. There was no laughing at the demo (however most of it was pretty poor other than one Hua and the Drunken Spear form) it seems you are indicating that these "honorable" monks were so disingenuous as to laugh behind our backs instead of to GMT's face.

No Im not "GMT" was there -so was I -were you?
Arogant? I get alittle ****ed off at being called a lier from people that have no clue- I dont know you- find out who your talking with before you make such big claims youself.
I really dont care (consdering the source) what you think of me- You are speaking from the mouth of other people- you dont know the history other than what you have been told. So for that "I forive you" Bt dont continue to argue a point with someone that was there- I NEVER made any claims- everyone else has- a statement was made- I am the proof- that is why I answered. Why is my language so hard for you to understand? The truth is the truth. You can tell me that peaches come from pair tree's till your blue in the face. I judge the by the fruit not what someone is telling me what type of a tree you come from.
By the way sonny- If you think im arogant- look at yourself befor youmake your claim-you are the one arguing with someone that has studied MA for 45 years. Have some respect- By the way who are you anyway? I am on here with my real name

[kwaichang]

You are on here to toot your own horn. The fact that you were there means nothing it just means you were there the Swords gave GMT one stone and Lex the other. So what. That does not disprove anything about Sd and I have laughted at many MA that were legit and I too know real MA. You are just an arrogant self promoting MA if you really are one. The Modern WuShu is nothing more than dance as Funakoshi said MA without the mind of the enemy is only dance. The proof is in the pudding. Can you use it or not does it work or not period I dont give a Rats A$$ where it comes from but SD is the real deal like it or not. KC

[John Dufresne]

You are on here to toot your own horn. The fact that you were there means nothing it just means you were there the Swords gave GMT one stone and Lex the other. So what. That does not disprove anything about Sd and I have laughted at many MA that were legit and I too know real MA. You are just an arrogant self promoting MA if you really are one. The Modern WuShu is nothing more than dance as Funakoshi said MA without the mind of the enemy is only dance. The proof is in the pudding. Can you use it or not does it work or not period I dont give a Rats A$$ where it comes from but SD is the real deal like it or not. KC

WHAT! Promte what----Im not promoting anything- where have I said or made a claim to fame (Frankly I know nothing)
Im just angry at people that mention my name - stop

Let me ask you- to simply put yourself in my shoes- how would you react? Frankly I have sat back and said nothing for YEARS. Enough is enough cut it out stop mentoning me.
Call me on the phone we will talk in person not in a forum- you think I want to self promote- I have nothing to promote.
978-846-7417

[John Dufresne]

WHAT! Promte what----Im not promoting anything- where have I said or made a claim to fame (Frankly I know nothing)
Im just angry at people that mention my name - stop

Let me ask you- to simply put yourself in my shoes- how would you react? Frankly I have sat back and said nothing for YEARS. Enough is enough cut it out stop mentoning me.
Call me on the phone we will talk in person not in a forum- you think I want to self promote- I have nothing to promote.
978-846-7417

Boy you really are ignorant- (Wu-shu) proof in the pudding? where are you? who are you? you definatly dont know me very well do you!!!!!!!!!! I have already proven many many times- I definatly dont need to prove to a ignorant child like you- but if your willing I live in boston- you know my number- quite talkin start walkin.

[kwaichang]

You are the only one that has mentioned your name you came on here spouting off. Why, :cool: are you just a troll. Seems that way. I have no need to meet or call you. I have nothing to prove you are on here to start cra/ so why dont you just go wu and shu somewhere else. KC:(

[Golden Tiger]

Welcome back Johnny, heck, its been what, 3 years or so since you last graced the forum with your insightfulness?:rolleyes:

[Shaolin Wookie]

Now all we have to do is a little net search, and order a dozen or so pizzas..........;)

[kwaichang]

No Wookie that would put you on his level. I dont understand his post?? Who mentioned his name until he showed up I hadnt heard of him.
You know at work I work with 5-6 different disciplines, PT OT Speech MD Nurses CNA etc, everyone feels that what they do is the most important and best thing for the patient. Well we are a team and even though there are members of the team that are self promoting as to what they do we still need to work togethor. I saw a movie once that said basically that until he feels the force of what you do he will not respect you. I feel that is the thing here. We are all brothers in a way even the brother that is the wayward one. So lets just talk technique and quit all the bashing. I personally started on this forum to converse about MA not is this this real or not. I know some of my posts do not reflect that though. I just love MA period and feel strongly about my life in MA KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

'Sall good. Same here. BTW, this dude's a troll, man.

[Mas Judt]

I would love to referee a match between a modern Wushu coach from China and an SD master. I'd be happy to arrange it and video it.

I think you will be very surprised with the result. Just because a good chunk of the training has been modified for performance, it does not mean they are with skill. And thier material is much more in line with CMA principle than Shaolin Do.

now, put that Kool Aid down...

[kwaichang]

Mas You slay me. Ha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. KC

[Mas Judt]

Why is it so funny? I mean, I know why I think it is funny, but I guess you are probably laughing from fear.

I'll be happy to set it up and ref, if you think I am not impartial, I can get an MMA guy to ref. (Just don't wear all those zippy patches on your pajamas, it might influence his decision.)

[kwaichang]

Again you slay me I bet you hoped it would be fought like the ancient Greek olympics didnt ya KC:rolleyes::eek:

[kwaichang]

BTW You dont have to be impartial when one is unconscious. I could care less who refs. KC

[synack]

For those who want to critique. There is a new video up at http://shaolincenter.com/

[Chain Whip]

John Dufresne;780608]No Im not "GMT" was there -so was I -were you?
Arogant? I get alittle ****ed off at being called a lier from people that have no clue- I dont know you- find out who your talking with before you make such big claims youself. I didn't say GMT wasn't there - I said he didn't "bring" the group. Yes, I was there - don't recall you being there. If you were there why don't you tell the story about the firecrackers at the unveiling of the marker?

You are speaking from the mouth of other people- No I'm not.

one arguing with someone that has studied MA for 45 years. Have some respect- Maybe you should do something to earn it. I'm happy for you that you took your first class 45 years ago - I have no idea what you have actually done since then - but I have seen you perform a couple of times - thought you were pretty good actually - just not as good as you think you are.

[BM2]

Do you live in a prison? Who the hell sleeps in a metal bed?

Man I never thought about it before now but I do:o And it's a canopy:o

[BM2]

It is my opinion that the stone is in honor of the ones who purchased it (Soards). For those of have seen it, what is your opinion?

[DPL]

WHAT! Promte what----Im not promoting anything- where have I said or made a claim to fame (Frankly I know nothing)
Im just angry at people that mention my name - stop

Let me ask you- to simply put yourself in my shoes- how would you react? Frankly I have sat back and said nothing for YEARS. Enough is enough cut it out stop mentoning me.
Call me on the phone we will talk in person not in a forum- you think I want to self promote- I have nothing to promote.
978-846-7417

Boy you really are ignorant- (Wu-shu) proof in the pudding? where are you? who are you? you definatly dont know me very well do you!!!!!!!!!! I have already proven many many times- I definatly dont need to prove to a ignorant child like you- but if your willing I live in boston- you know my number- quite talkin start walkin.

Dude, when you quote yourself and post something like this under it, it looks like you're arguing with yourself. Maybe that's a skill you picked up in your '45 years of MA experience', and hopefully you have some good, intelligent, impassioned discussions with yourself, but most people just think it's nuts.

There's almost a rhythm to the flame wars starting up and dying down on this thread. It's like the rising and setting of the sun, or the changing of the tides. Or drinking then throwing up until you dry heave every weekend in college...

[DPL]

Bt dont continue to argue a point with someone that was there- I NEVER made any claims- everyone else has- a statement was made- I am the proof- that is why I answered.

You want the proof? I AM THE PROOF! YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE PROOF!!!

[cjurakpt]

For those who want to critique. There is a new video up at http://shaolincenter.com/

when someone starts a broadsword form with the opposite hand in a sword-finger mudra...sigh

[Mas Judt]

Well, at least you understand you would be knocked out KC.

Man that Kool aid must be tasty.

[tattooedmonk]

when someone starts a broadsword form with the opposite hand in a sword-finger mudra...sighThat is creative expression, the form does not start like that.

[tattooedmonk]

Is this the writer??

[cjurakpt]

That is creative expression, the form does not start like that.

wow, you guys just never quite with your rationalizations and justifications; the SD org should be paying you all an honorarium as Lord High Apologists

I mean, it's always something, right? no matter what inconsistencies get pointed out, they are always "not how it's really done"; amazing how pretty much every public display of SD is incorrect because of the individual doing it - I guess somewhere there is a hidden temple of SD people doing all the forms perfectly that he outside world will never get to see...
so, if it's "creative expression", where did it come from? I'll tell you where - they saw someone do a tai chi straight sword set like that, and thought it would look cool to do with a broadsword, having absolutely NO understanding of why you do that with a a straight sword and not a broadsword; you see lots of "creative expression" in TCMA, but it's within a framework based on certain sets of principles;
so, when he puts the broadsword behind the arm in the ready position after doing the bizzare move across his face from the craddle hold - is that also "creative expression"? is the cr@p that they pass off as a 2-man staff set or their strange version of "tai chi" also just being "creative"? and if he's being creative, why is it being done on a promo vid for a school that is promoting itself as "original" and "authentic"? why be creative if you got the real stuff? answer: 99% of the people seeing it have no clue, so, like all other SD stuff out there, you can have something that looks "kung fuey" that the general public is going to buy, but that actually contains all sorts of errors and inconsistencies that anyone with authentic TCMA experience will pick up; face it - its done like that because that's how it's it's taught, it's basically a cheap rip-off of TCMA, and that's the end of it;

[tattooedmonk]

wow, you guys just never quite with your rationalizations and justifications; the SD org should be paying you all an honorarium as Lord High Apologists

I mean, it's always something, right? no matter what inconsistencies get pointed out, they are always "not how it's really done"; amazing how pretty much every public display of SD is incorrect because of the individual doing it - I guess somewhere there is a hidden temple of SD people doing all the forms perfectly that he outside world will never get to see...

so, if it's "creative expression", where did it come from? you see lots of "creative expression" in TCMA, but certain things don't occur, because they are intrinsic to the thing itself (like doing sword mudra w/broad sword); and when he puts the broadsword behind the arm in the ready position after doing the bizzare move across his face from the craddle hold - is that also "creative expression"? is the cr@p that they pass off as a 2-man staff set or their strange version of "tai chi" also just being "creative"? and if he's being creative, why is it being done on a promo vid for a school that is promoting itself as "original" and "authentic"? why be creative if you got the real stuff? answer: 99% of the people seeing it have no clue, so, like all other SD stuff out there, you can have something that looks "kung fuey" that the general public is going to buy, but that actually contains all sorts of errors and inconsistencies that anyone with authentic TCMA experience will pick up; face it - its done like that because that's how it's it's taught, it's basically a cheap rip-off of TCMA, and that's the end of it;Look ,I just said what I believe it to be . He may have learned it like that, but I did not . I learned it from GMS and was right next to him for the whole seminar.

Yes, most of what is there is creative expression and or forms being done poorly.

Most people do not do them for the same reasons . The only people that look pretty doing them are forms champions or masters, these people do not fall into either of these catagories.

Why not give them a break and compliment them on what they have done that looks good or is done right??

This would be the sign of a true master and not an online critic.

Not everything is as it seems.

[brucereiter]

is that also "creative expression"? is the cr@p that they pass off as a 2-man staff set or their strange version of "tai chi" also just being "creative"? it's basically a cheap rip-off of TCMA, and that's the end of it;

hi cjurakpt,

i would like to address part of the above quote from you.

here is a clip of me practicing my understanding of yang tai chi chuan.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9nJ3vwcR1EQ

what is "strange" about the way i presented yang tai chi chuan as i have learned it from shaolin do?

how is what i presented a "basically cheap rip off of tcma"?

what is it the end of?

best,

bruce

[kwaichang]

Yes someone would. For once you are right. KC Hey PT some people do change the forms and the intro etc. that does not make the whole system wrong just that person. Some like Bobath some dont but the rehab works . KC

[kwaichang]

The demo tape looks like a compilation of about 5-6 different forms Green Dragon Broadsword , Taichi BSword , Tai chi and others. KC

[DPL]

wow, you guys just never quite with your rationalizations and justifications;

Wow, you guys just never quit with the attacks.

[Golden Tiger]

It is my opinion that the stone is in honor of the ones who purchased it (Soards). For those of have seen it, what is your opinion?


I am with you on this one.......:rolleyes:

[Golden Tiger]

so, if it's "creative expression", where did it come from? I'll tell you where - they saw someone do a tai chi straight sword set like that, and thought it would look cool to do with a broadsword, having absolutely NO understanding of why you do that with a a straight sword and not a broadsword;

I will not apologize. The two finger salute (as aposed to the one finger salute that I usually am know for) is called "immortal points the way" and while generally seen only in jian forms, is present in the opening of the Green Dragon Broadsword form.

While it is used as a balance to the jian in "tai chi sword forms" as you say, it is merely used in this one as an opening move.

so, when he puts the broadsword behind the arm in the ready position after doing the bizzare move across his face from the craddle hold - is that also "creative expression"?

As KC stated, this is several different parts of different forms spliced together.

See, this is another case of commenting on something inwhich you know absolutely nothing about. How about you learn the forms first, then make an "informed "decision.......

[Judge Pen]

John, I don't think anyone has mentioned your name on these forums for quite some time.... not since the go-round I had with Frank regarding the existance (of lack of existance) of that tape.

Having said that, I'm a bit bemused as to the attacking tone. :confused:

[Mas Judt]

I think it should be obvious...

[Judge Pen]

Not from prior posts etc. I thought he was respectful in his disagreement especially considering the personal nature of the comments back then. Now its just the same old merry-go-round of SD arguments. No one was attacking John or discussing him until he came back on here.

Shoot, as much as we've discussed these topics, we should be on autopilot by now. :D

[cjurakpt]

Look ,I just said what I believe it to be . He may have learned it like that, but I did not . I learned it from GMS and was right next to him for the whole seminar.
ok, so you learned it differently - seems to be a lot of variation going on then (see below)...

Yes, most of what is there is creative expression and or forms being done poorly.
again, it always seems to be what is publically available that falls under those categories - interesting coincdence...
seems to be a lot of "creative expression" being encourraged - hey, fine - but is that still "authentic" and "original"? but I can understand why its encouraged, considering there was probably a lot of that at the source...

Most people do not do them for the same reasons . The only people that look pretty doing them are forms champions or masters, these people do not fall into either of these catagories.
I don't care about "pretty" - that's not my point at all - you can do a form "badly" but the intrinsic elements can still be intact...but if they're not there, it doesn't matter how you do it...

Why not give them a break and compliment them on what they have done that looks good or is done right??
when i see some, I'll say it

This would be the sign of a true master and not an online critic.
since I never claimed to be a master of anything, I don't have to worry about living up to some sort of idealized criteria of great equanimity

Not everything is as it seems.
apparantly disproportionately so in the world of SD; but then again, some people think that JFS won against Osiris...

[cjurakpt]

what is "strange" about the way i presented yang tai chi chuan as i have learned it from shaolin do?
well, compared to classical Yang Family set (which I don't do myself), some of the moves are different or missing (e.g. - you do brush knee only 2x and only with the left foot forward, as opposed to 5x; you don't have "raising up the hands" in between dan bin and bak hok leung chi; you do some extra movements with the left hand and don't have the twisting step going into bun lan choih); I wouldn't call it strange per se, but it certainly is not classical Yang

how is what i presented a "basically cheap rip off of tcma"?
what you presented specifically looks like an alteration of the Yang set, which hey, if someone has done tai chi as their primary art for some years and feel that they have the purview to make some well-informed changes, that's cool; tai chi is certainly not one big happy family with everyone doing the same form, that's for sure; so BTW, who changed around the form to the version you do?

[cjurakpt]

Hey PT some people do change the forms and the intro etc. that does not make the whole system wrong just that person. Some like Bobath some dont but the rehab works . KC
you know, the way you seem to really luv addressing me by those initials after my name - I'm guessing you've met one or two PT's in your life that rubbed you the wrong way (get it? get it?), hmmm?

and hey, as for changing forms - I say go for it - do it up! but what is informing those changes? c'mon, be honest...

Bobath? what's that?

[cjurakpt]

I will not apologize.
well that's a relief...BTW, what is it that you aren't sorry about?

The two finger salute (as aposed to the one finger salute that I usually am know for) is called "immortal points the way" and while generally seen only in jian forms, is present in the opening of the Green Dragon Broadsword form.
actually, classically the move "Immortal Points the Way" involves a bit more than just pointing with the fingers...for example, the direction in which you point is kinda important; also, pointing the way to what?...:rolleyes:
and also, so according to you it is present in the opening - looks like you and your training brother have some disagreement over that...
Originally Posted by tattooedmonk:
Look ,I just said what I believe it to be . He may have learned it like that, but I did not . I learned it from GMS and was right next to him for the whole seminar.

so, which is correct? or is it the custum of SD to play fast and loose with the "original" and "authentic" style it is passing down?

While it is used as a balance to the jian in "tai chi sword forms" as you say, it is merely used in this one as an opening move.
so, if it's "merely" used as an opening, what is the reason it was used as an opening? lemme guess - it looks nice...
look, if you want to switch things around, go ahead - go Pollock on the whole system if you want - but spare us the paens about authenticity and traditional Shaolin being taught

As KC stated, this is several different parts of different forms spliced together.
ummm - yeah, I think I got that...

See, this is another case of commenting on something inwhich you know absolutely nothing about. How about you learn the forms first, then make an "informed "decision.......
it seems like there are so many different versions of the forms going around that even you guys can't agree on what's what, so which versions would I have to learn? as for knowing nothing about it - well, after studying TCMA for the last 20+ years with various teachers actually from China, I think I have a little bit of an informed perspective on TCMA...but that's ok, you don't have to believe me...

[cjurakpt]

Wow, you guys just never quit with the attacks.

well, there's just so much material to cover...

[Baqualin]

Not from prior posts etc. I thought he was respectful in his disagreement especially considering the personal nature of the comments back then. Now its just the same old merry-go-round of SD arguments. No one was attacking John or discussing him until he came back on here.

Shoot, as much as we've discussed these topics, we should be on autopilot by now. :D

John Dufresne???
Hey JP, from what I know of John....this is not him.......he's much more respectful........it has to be some troll, trying to stir up more sh!t....these post made no since at all.
BQ

[Chain Whip]

It is my opinion that the stone is in honor of the ones who purchased it (Soards). For those of have seen it, what is your opinion?

It is unquestionably to honor the Soards as is the marker in Putian. GMT is almost an after thought. The marker at Chen Village honors GMT - paid for by the students on the 1998 trip.

[Chain Whip]

I would love to referee a match between a modern Wushu coach from China and an SD master. I'd be happy to arrange it and video it.

I think you will be very surprised with the result. Just because a good chunk of the training has been modified for performance, it does not mean they are with skill. And thier material is much more in line with CMA principle than Shaolin Do.

now, put that Kool Aid down...

Let's say we do this:)

If the SD Master lost you (and others) would cite it as "proof" that we are "fake" or whatever.

If the SD Master won you would not have the opposite reaction. So, what value would there be in doing it? Unless everyone promised to say an SD victory would be the ultimate proof of our validity.

Can we pick any modern wushu coach and can we use any SD Master we wish?:D:D

[Judge Pen]

Let's say we do this:)

If the SD Master lost you (and others) would cite it as "proof" that we are "fake" or whatever.

If the SD Master won you would not have the opposite reaction. So, what value would there be in doing it? Unless everyone promised to say an SD victory would be the ultimate proof of our validity.

Can we pick any modern wushu coach and can we use any SD Master we wish?:D:D


This type of ancedotal evidence is unreliable as so much will depend on the individual. I know people who have told me that they sparred an SD black belt and they were bad, displayed no power or root etc. and all I can say is oh, well I hope that I'm better. I've also heard people say that they've seen an SD black sash fight and that, whatever you say about the history, that student could fight well. Ok, great. Good for the student and his teachers.

Truth is, none of it means much outside of the motivation, skill and will of the two individuals at that precise moment in time. All other things equal, the validity of an art and its training methods should make a difference, but the other intangibles will always get in the way.

[Mas Judt]

JP,
I am offering the match in respone to comments about the superiority compared to Modern Wushu. which demonstrates a deep misunderstanding of who is actually out there and included under that label - guys like Liang shouyu, Pan qing fu or Li tai liang - guys with real skills.

It would be an illuminating experience for SD, as it would not really be a fight. Trust me on this.

[kwaichang]

Hey PT that is what you are right ? You are a PT and dont know the Bobath approach to Spasticity with Stroke TBI pt. ??? OK I guess you know as much about SD. And Mas there are good fighters in SD just like there are good ones else where put the best Wu Shu guy against the worst SD guy and he would lose take your pick on which one that would be . And as far as the form it is not the Immortal points the Way it is a Dragon Hand as the form is Green Dragon Broadsword not Tai Chi Broad Sword or Jian. KC:p

[cjurakpt]

Hey PT that is what you are right ? You are a PT and dont know the Bobath approach to Spasticity with Stroke TBI pt. ???


me PT, but not know Bobath - brain hurts when think about it :rolleyes:

boy, I'll bet you were all a-twitter thinking that I didn't know it (BTW, I was trained in NDT by Lois Bly - you can ask your PT friends who she is)

you know, we can throw out lots of other PT "must know" names: Kendal, Voss, Mitchell, Maitland; the list goes on...and what?

OK I guess you know as much about SD.
actually, I know more than I really want to at this point...but that's ok, I'm done arguing pointlessly with you, well, whoever you are (I'd refer to you by professional initials, but I'm not sure what it is that you actually do...)

And as far as the form it is not the Immortal points the Way it is a Dragon Hand as the form is Green Dragon Broadsword not Tai Chi Broad Sword or Jian. KC:p
looks like you and your training brother Golden Tiger have some discussing to do on that - man, somebody better have a chat with the folks at SD Quality Assurance...
btw, what does the Green Dragon symbolize, just for kicks?

[tattooedmonk]

It is unquestionably to honor the Soards as is the marker in Putian. GMT is almost an after thought.
I have to agree with this.They paid for it themselves.:rolleyes:

They did because they thought it would add credibilty to what they study and teach.

Just like the USSD people.:rolleyes::eek:

[tattooedmonk]

ok, so you learned it differently - seems to be a lot of variation going on then (see below)...


again, it always seems to be what is publically available that falls under those categories - interesting coincdence...
seems to be a lot of "creative expression" being encourraged - hey, fine - but is that still "authentic" and "original"? but I can understand why its encouraged, considering there was probably a lot of that at the source...


I don't care about "pretty" - that's not my point at all - you can do a form "badly" but the intrinsic elements can still be intact...but if they're not there, it doesn't matter how you do it...


when i see some, I'll say it


since I never claimed to be a master of anything, I don't have to worry about living up to some sort of idealized criteria of great equanimity


apparantly disproportionately so in the world of SD; but then again, some people think that JFS won against Osiris...#1 Yes there is.

#2 I believe it is because any of the masters do not care about what people think either way.

#3 Authentic and original forms have been changed and altered by masters in every style to suit their needs , why should SD be any differen? The forms are taught , for the most part , consistently the same way in most of the schools.

#4 So what do see as being the most intrinsic aspects of the forms and /or pieces of the forms that you have seen that are missing from what you have seen in SD ??


#5 So you have seen nothing that was good in SD what so ever?? Material or otherwise.

#6 So what makes you so qualified then to say one way or another as to what is correct or incorrect about what it is that SD does.

I mean it is easy to say from behind a computer, looking at a two dimensional video of forms to say" yeah they do not have this and this is not right, etc. But is it possible that looks my be deceiving ,that if you tried to test your beliefs against any of these people, that the you might be wrong??

[kwaichang]

My fupa PT I am sure you are Out pt, as I was for 11 years. I follow other precepts not a big fan of Maitland, I like Paris and Myo - Fascial met tech , Structural to Soft tissue. mobs. Strain counter strain and Corley / Kelsey tendon cond and Un-loading principles. So having said that what do i do for work. Likewise as you were not familiar with Bobath you may not be familiar with all the nuances of SD. as far as Dragon hand etc I am basing this on my DVD of the form by GMT it looks like a DRagon Hand not Immortal hand. I will look at the notes to be sure/. Mas who do you know in Wu Shu that you could set up a match with and what is their weight class ?? Just Curious. KC

[Chain Whip]

JP,
I am offering the match in respone to comments about the superiority compared to Modern Wushu. which demonstrates a deep misunderstanding of who is actually out there and included under that label - guys like Liang shouyu, Pan qing fu or Li tai liang - guys with real skills.

It would be an illuminating experience for SD, as it would not really be a fight. Trust me on this.

So, answer the question.

Can we pick any modern wushu coach and can we use any SD Master we wish?

[Judge Pen]

JP,
I am offering the match in respone to comments about the superiority compared to Modern Wushu. which demonstrates a deep misunderstanding of who is actually out there and included under that label - guys like Liang shouyu, Pan qing fu or Li tai liang - guys with real skills.

It would be an illuminating experience for SD, as it would not really be a fight. Trust me on this.


Sorry, I don't trust you on this, although I for one have never said that a wu shu person couldn't fight...if they train to. Their atleticism alone means they would be formidable if they have any will and intent and I think that there remains some marital intent in wu shu... it just doesn't have the intent that it did prior to the standardization and competition elements.

Pan qing fu is one of my favorites: "you must first hit with your eyes and then your heart; your hands will follow."

I stand by my statement that its more of an idividual element as opposed to a style vs. style.

[cjurakpt]

My fupa PT I am sure you are Out pt, as I was for 11 years. I follow other precepts not a big fan of Maitland, I like Paris and Myo - Fascial met tech , Structural to Soft tissue. mobs. Strain counter strain and Corley / Kelsey tendon cond and Un-loading principles. So having said that what do i do for work. Likewise as you were not familiar with Bobath you may not be familiar with all the nuances of SD. as far as Dragon hand etc I am basing this on my DVD of the form by GMT it looks like a DRagon Hand not Immortal hand. I will look at the notes to be sure/.

Maitland is a nice system if that's all you use - it is internally consistent to a fault; mixing it with other things diminishes its efficacy, IMHO (to wit, I have worked with a few GDMT's from Oz - they were very effective using it alone); Paris seems to be basically Maitland mixed in with other stuff (Kaltenborn, Grimsby, Roccobado, etc.), from what i understand, but I never took his courses; MFR is ok, but Barnes is a bit culty and somewhat of an Upledger wanna-be; as for Dr. John, don't get me started, I spent a lot (too much?) time with him in my early years, before getting into more classical osteo stuff (Mitchel, Sutherland, Jones - counterstrain is the DEAL - fixes pretty much everything; the rest usually can be nailed with MET and adjustment - yes, I do a good deal of adjust / Gr. V - cuts down on rx. time when used appropriately in a big way!); on the neuro end, picked up PNF from Vicki Johnson, and as for Bobath, again to be clear, I studied NDT but have used it for peds (CP, etc.); never did any in-patient adult neuro, never that interested in it for some reason; and I am not familiar with Corley / Kelsey

as for SD, hey, whatever - I have seen more TCMA in my travels than I care to remember, and quite frankly, I think I can make a pretty good assessment of what is what, and SD just doesn't have the right taste to it - it looks like, in all the examples I have seen, a 4th or 5th generation xerox of TCMA: may have started out as it, but got messed with here and there to the point where it lacks all but a superficial reseamblance to it; but whatever, as I said, that's just my opinion, it won't change things one bit

[cjurakpt]

#1 Yes there is.
what informs that variety?

#2 I believe it is because any of the masters do not care about what people think either way.
obviously they do if they are promoting thir schools as being "authentic" and "original" Shaolin...

#3 Authentic and original forms have been changed and altered by masters in every style to suit their needs , why should SD be any differen? The forms are taught , for the most part , consistently the same way in most of the schools.
again, what informs their decision to change something and the way in which it is changed? there's a big difference between me going in and moving stuff around in Bethoven's Fifth and Leonard Bernstein doing it...

#4 So what do see as being the most intrinsic aspects of the forms and /or pieces of the forms that you have seen that are missing from what you have seen in SD ??
the moves themselves, how they are strung together, the way they are played - all TCMA, despite being comprised of 100's of styles, has a certain flavor to it - SD lacks that, IMO

#5 So you have seen nothing that was good in SD what so ever?? Material or otherwise.
nope

#6 So what makes you so qualified then to say one way or another as to what is correct or incorrect about what it is that SD does.
nothing makes me qualified - I am just giving an opinion based on 20+ years in the world of TCMA; take it or leave it, you obviously choose the latter

I mean it is easy to say from behind a computer, looking at a two dimensional video of forms to say" yeah they do not have this and this is not right, etc. But is it possible that looks my be deceiving ,that if you tried to test your beliefs against any of these people, that the you might be wrong??
why is it that you can look at other TCMA styles who post their vids, and you can see what is going on just fine, but when it comes to SD, that is not the case? why does "defense" of SD always involves complex arguments and justifications? I mean, I can do a CLF form, and someone may tell me I suck, but no one would ever suggest it's not actually CMA - but for some reason, something about SD consistently sets off bells, whistles and red flags for TCMA practitioners - just sayin'

look guys, you believe in your reality, it's obviously done right by you, so I'm just gonna drop it here and let it be, because there's obviously no point in pursuing this any further

[kwaichang]

Corley and Kelsey are a husband / wife PT team with 20 years of research and they are the ones that originated the suni unloading system. It is a de-weighting principle excellent for disc pathology and sports rehab. I worked with Doug F. the inventor of ex-pro program. As far as the SD Green Dragon the opening move is " Fu Pu Liang Chang" " Tiger step spread the palm" not Immortal points the way. The guy just F/U as people do . Please do not judge the style by the man as we are all imperfect. PT I think we c