Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[dragonf1y]

Chain Whip,

i think you are missing the point as to why people despise SD.

It appears that you are a Hung Gar guy and I am very happy for you. It is a great style. Can you clarify for me the significant differences between a Hung Gar guy that has about 2500 hours of training time in and a Shaolin-Do guy with the same amount of time in. I can tell you the SD guy will around 75 forms at this point. Maybe a few less, possibly 15 or 20 more though. Let’s assume they practice in pants and T-shirts, have no ranking system, never learn a single word in Chinese and never learn anything about lineage or history. We will also assume that they have identical aptitudes and athleticism. This should leave us with the only “real” part in martial arts - the development of body mechanics, physical and mental conditioning. In what way will their minds and bodies be so different as to validate the “reality” of Hung Gar and the ‘fakeness” of Shaolin-Do.

For converstation sake, lets throw Karate and TKD into that mix.

Now let's say that they are claiming to be Kung Fu.

Regardless of hours trained, development of body mechanics, physical and mental conditioning or any of that other great stuff, one fact still remains...

Karate & TKD are not 'Kung Fu'

THe same is true for SD.

To claim so would be either ingnorant or dishonest.

Which are you?

[Erasmus Mingatt]

For the record:

TingHexagram50 and I are housemates. I study preying mantis. He studies Wu tai chi. He doesn't have a computer..I do..so he asked if he could create a new screename. I said yeah as long as I can be aware of what he posts. I meant to log on before under my ER screename not his. Oops.

Hopefully this will clarify things..


""So now Shaolin-Do is fake,"

"I don't believe I ever used the word "fake". I think Ninjitsu is real also..I just don't say it's kung fu. If there is something about this point you still don't get..I'd be happy to break it down for you further..



"because you don’t like our uniforms (maybe TN and GA are okay though),"

Like? Now we are clearly going off on a tangent and into fashion sense. I think Karate uniforms look cool and like the design..just like I like kf uniforms, Aikido uniforms, Kendo uniforms,etc. But I don't wear an Aikido uniform and do Aikido maneuvers and philosophies and call it "kung fu".


"you question our lineage and don’t believe anyone could learn even 400 forms."

I'm not saying that this fellow Su Kong Djin(I'm sure I messed up the name--no disrepect intended) didn't exist. It's his claim of being "grandmaster of Shaolin" that makes me raise an eyebrow. I believe someone could learn 400 forms if each form were only 10 moves each. And why does it bother you that I don't believe it? I'm allowed to believe what I wish as are you. Better to be skeptical than to just accept something in blind faith. I could say I learned 10,000 forms. Doesn't mean I did. And for that matter...I'm not impressed with numbers. One could make the argument that all one would need in a fight would the mastery of just ONE form. We have a form in mantis called Da Fong Che(Large rolling wheel). I could take that form and only that form and practice it alone for 30 years...and beat to pieces someone who learned 400 or 900 forms just having a cursory understanding of each. Scratch that. I could practice one kick for 30 years and go against someone who learned 1,000 forms. Guess who is more likely to win? The kicker!!!


"That does not make it impossible."

Theoretically..ANYTHING is possible. I'm not questioning whether it's possible..I'm questioning whether it is LIKELY..vast difference ;)



"It is a great style." Have you studied any?


"Can you clarify for me the significant differences between a Hung Gar guy that has about 2500 hours of training time in and a Shaolin-Do guy with the same amount of time in."

Can't remember if it was you or someone else...but someone accused me of making a "p-ssing contest" about this. Now who is making the contest? There isn't a meter or a timer or pre-programmed ammount of hours that determines expertise. Which is one of the reasons why the belt system in so many respects is rather peculiar. People have this cultural authority which says "Well I got a black belt so..you can't tell me ,etc.". I've seen black belts get their a-ses handed to them by people who have lower belts. 2500 hours may be impressive compared to someone who has no experience..but the other part of the equation has to be HEART!!


"I can tell you the SD guy will around 75 forms at this point. Maybe a few less, possibly 15 or 20 more though. Let’s assume they practice in pants and T-shirts, have no ranking system, never learn a single word in Chinese and never learn anything about lineage or history."


As Felix Unger from the show "The Odd Couple" once said: "Never assume..because when you assume..you make an A-S out of you and me".


"We will also assume that they have identical aptitudes and athleticism. This should leave us with the only “real” part in martial arts - the development of body mechanics, physical and mental conditioning."

You keep coming back to this body mechanics thing. There is alot more to KF than body mechanics. There is: taking into account your opponents size, speed, leverage, age, conditioning, mental state, years of training and avenue of approach. I could go on and on. I also must take into consideration my own ability in these areas.


"In what way will their minds and bodies be so different as to validate the “reality” of Hung Gar and the ‘fakeness” of Shaolin-Do."

It seems I've hit a nerve. I'm not glorifying Hung Ga..there are aspects to it that I think are impractical and there are probably things about SD that work well in combat also. I hold no style on a pedestal. I'm also not saying that Shaolin-Do doesn't teach people how to fight. I'm saying that some of the ways that concepts and structures are identified in the style are not commensurate with what styles emanating from the Shaolin Temple are known for. If I created a style of Karate but didn't use the term "sensei" and made comments such as "Erasmus-Ryu Karate was started by Erasmus Mingatt--the Emperor of Japan..but we have no belt ranking system and no katas(two characteristics of karate which identify it AS Karate)" most traditional karate styles would scream "Bu-l****"!! See my point?

Peace,
EM

[Chain Whip]

Eramus

No - I don't see your point - mostly because you don't have one.

Your post today at 2:33pm was titled "SD is Fake!!" - so I think you did say that. Neither you or "Dragonfly" or your boyfriend "TingHexagram50" seem to be able to answer my simple question on the difference in the value of the training.

I could take that form and only that form and practice it alone for 30 years...and beat to pieces someone who learned 400 or 900 forms just having a cursory understanding of each. Scratch that. I could practice one kick for 30 years and go against someone who learned 1,000 forms. Guess who is more likely to win? The kicker!!!

You are wrong. Tell me where you live and I'll get a SD guy there to show you. For your sake I hope you don't live in Atlanta - or anywhere Bruce might travel to.

because you don’t like our uniforms (maybe TN and GA are okay though),"

Like? Now we are clearly going off on a tangent and into fashion sense. I think Karate uniforms look cool and like the design..just like I like kf uniforms, Aikido uniforms, Kendo uniforms,etc. But I don't wear an Aikido uniform and do Aikido maneuvers and philosophies and call it "kung fu".

glad to hear you like the uniforms

2500 hours may be impressive compared to someone who has no experience..but the other part of the equation has to be HEART!!

Let's make heart part of aptitude - and try and answer the simple question.

"I can tell you the SD guy will around 75 forms at this point. Maybe a few less, possibly 15 or 20 more though. Let’s assume they practice in pants and T-shirts, have no ranking system, never learn a single word in Chinese and never learn anything about lineage or history."


As Felix Unger from the show "The Odd Couple" once said: "Never assume..because when you assume..you make an A-S out of you and me".


That is the least intelligent answer I have ever heard for a hypothetical question.

You keep coming back to this body mechanics thing. There is alot more to KF than body mechanics.

Really - try telling that to the guy with superior mechanics as his beats your ass. Or try telling that to the doctor when you need surgery for poor mechanics - or poor health.

There is: taking into account your opponents size, speed, leverage, age, conditioning, mental state, years of training and avenue of approach. I could go on and on. I also must take into consideration my own ability in these areas.


That is why my hypothetical question eliminated those varibles. Again, I'll speak slowly now...... try...... to.....answer.....the.......question

are not commensurate with what styles emanating from the Shaolin Temple are known for.

This comment is based on what??? A person who hasn't been to either of the wushu temples and seems to believe there was an unbroken history along with great records. Do you realize there was NO SHAOLIN TEMPLE since long before you were born - until about 25 years ago when it looked to be a promising way to make money from people (read you) that didn't know any better. -- My mistake - I inferred you might be 25+ years old. But your posts indicate a 13 year old kid with an internet connection.

[dragonf1y]

Neither you or "Dragonfly" or your boyfriend "TingHexagram50" seem to be able to answer my simple question on the difference in the value of the training.

OK, since you obviously have a hard time understanding the point of posts, I will spell it out for you simply.

The 'value' of the training will likely not be much different (my opinion only). I will even say the value of training received traing received from a good SD instructor (oxy moron?) would be greater than the value of the training from a poor, yet actuall Kung Fu teacher.

That is not the point.

The point is this....

You would not call Karate or TKD as Kung Fu.

Why then would you call SD as Kung Fu?

Again I ask, Ingnorance or Dishonesty?

[Erasmus Mingatt]

"No - I don't see your point - mostly because you don't have one."

I've made no less than THREE points dude. And I've made them repeatedly!! I can't help it if you don't understand them.

"Your post today at 2:33pm was titled "SD is Fake!!" - so I think you did say that."

I guess my attempt at getting a rise out of you worked.LOL. Usually when they have resorted to ad homenim attacks on your character..it is a sign they have lost the argument. Yawn!




"Neither you or "Dragonfly" or your boyfriend "TingHexagram50"

For the record..I'm engaged...yes..to a woman. Usually when they resort to ad homenim attacks on your character..it is a sign they have lost the debate.




"You are wrong. Tell me where you live and I'll get a SD guy there to show you." There's a SD school only about a mile away from my apartment. No need to go to GA.




"
Let's make heart part of aptitude - and try and answer the simple question."

I did.

"That is the least intelligent answer I have ever heard for a hypothetical question."

Oh? When I take a fight between two people..I don't "assume" anything. The scenario you were describing about how "Now lets assume ..." and "lets also assume"..I try and never do.

"Really - try telling that to the guy with superior mechanics as his beats your ass."

You can have super mechanics and be slow. You can also have superior mechanics and lack a good strategy. So to can a person have superior mechanics and not have the ability to adapt to a changing situation.

"Or try telling that to the doctor when you need surgery for poor mechanics - or poor health."

Tangent #...? I forgot..Tangent #10? Now we are talking about surgery? :p


"That is why my hypothetical question eliminated those varibles. Again, I'll speak slowly now...... try...... to.....answer.....the.......question"

And I'll speak even S-L-O-W-E-R to yoooouuuuu..because you've got alot to learn sir!! You can talk about hypothetical situations till the river runs dry, I'm talking about an ACTUAL situation. You want to eliminate those variables..go ahead..but taking them into consideration will determine who wins the fight!


" is based on what??? A person who hasn't been to either of the wushu temples and seems to believe there was an unbroken history along with great records."

I've neve been to Iraq or North Korea yet..does your comment mean that I need to go to either place to read about it's TRUE history?


"Do you realize there was NO SHAOLIN TEMPLE since long before you were born"

There was a temple allright. It may not have been functionng as it did in the Ming dynasty- but it sure existed.

"until about 25 years ago when it looked to be a promising way to make money"

Ah yes..making money just like Sin Kwang The has done..and it seems quite handsomely from people(read you ) who want to believe a revisionist history of a style of kung fu which calls forms "katas"..all 900 of them.

We can play this game all day buddy! Ya know what? I grow tiresome of this pointless diatribe. If you doubt me..take a trip to either Shaolin temple(since you are so fond of using the visiting angle as a platform to further your argument) and mention to the head Abbott that Su Kong Djin was the "grandmaster of the temple" and learned 900 forms. I am sure that he would be polite and not laugh but that doesnt mean he likely would not be thinking "is this guy on crack?".

" My mistake - I inferred you might be 25+ years old. But your posts indicate a 13 year old kid with an internet connection."


I'm 41 and clearly you are missing the mark.


As for a SD beating an 8 step sifu in a real fight..I have no desire to do this and I can tell you with certainty it would be no contest--900 forms or not! :cool:

I find that people who are confident of their ability in what they are studying do not need to issue internet tough guy challenges all the way from Georgia. Nuff said..

EM

[Erasmus Mingatt]

"No - I don't see your point - mostly because you don't have one."

I've made no less than THREE points dude. And I've made them repeatedly!! I can't help it if you don't understand them.

"Your post today at 2:33pm was titled "SD is Fake!!" - so I think you did say that."

I guess my attempt at getting a rise out of you worked.LOL. Usually when they have resorted to ad homenim attacks on your character..it is a sign they have lost the argument. Yawn!




"Neither you or "Dragonfly" or your boyfriend "TingHexagram50"

For the record..I'm engaged...yes..to a woman. Usually when they resort to ad homenim attacks on your character..it is a sign they have lost the debate.




"You are wrong. Tell me where you live and I'll get a SD guy there to show you." There's a SD school only about a mile away from my apartment. No need to go to GA.




"
Let's make heart part of aptitude - and try and answer the simple question."

I did.

"That is the least intelligent answer I have ever heard for a hypothetical question."

Oh? When I take a fight between two people..I don't "assume" anything. The scenario you were describing about how "Now lets assume ..." and "lets also assume"..I try and never do.

"Really - try telling that to the guy with superior mechanics as his beats your ass."

You can have super mechanics and be slow. You can also have superior mechanics and lack a good strategy. So to can a person have superior mechanics and not have the ability to adapt to a changing situation.

"Or try telling that to the doctor when you need surgery for poor mechanics - or poor health."

Tangent #...? I forgot..Tangent #10? Now we are talking about surgery? :p


"That is why my hypothetical question eliminated those varibles. Again, I'll speak slowly now...... try...... to.....answer.....the.......question"

And I'll speak even S-L-O-W-E-R to yoooouuuuu..because you've got alot to learn sir!! You can talk about hypothetical situations till the river runs dry, I'm talking about an ACTUAL situation. You want to eliminate those variables..go ahead..but taking them into consideration will determine who wins the fight!


" is based on what??? A person who hasn't been to either of the wushu temples and seems to believe there was an unbroken history along with great records."

I've neve been to Iraq or North Korea yet..does your comment mean that I need to go to either place to read about it's TRUE history?


"Do you realize there was NO SHAOLIN TEMPLE since long before you were born"

There was a temple allright. It may not have been functionng as it did in the Ming dynasty- but it sure existed.

"until about 25 years ago when it looked to be a promising way to make money"

Ah yes..making money just like Sin Kwang The has done..and it seems quite handsomely from people(read you ) who want to believe a revisionist history of a style of kung fu which calls forms "katas"..all 900 of them.

We can play this game all day buddy! Ya know what? I grow tiresome of this pointless diatribe. If you doubt me..take a trip to either Shaolin temple(since you are so fond of using the visiting angle as a platform to further your argument) and mention to the head Abbott that Su Kong Djin was the "grandmaster of the temple" and learned 900 forms. I am sure that he would be polite and not laugh but that doesnt mean he likely would not be thinking "is this guy on crack?".

" My mistake - I inferred you might be 25+ years old. But your posts indicate a 13 year old kid with an internet connection."


I'm 41 and clearly you are missing the mark.


As for a SD beating an 8 step sifu in a real fight..I have no desire to do this and I can tell you with certainty it would be no contest--900 forms or not! :cool:

I find that people who are confident of their ability in what they are studying do not need to issue internet tough guy challenges all the way from Georgia. Nuff said..

EM

[Leto]

Kung Fu means mastering a skill through hard work, or time and effort. practicing karate is "kung fu". practicing tae kwon do is "kung fu". Painting, calligraphy, and cooking are all "kung fu". Shaolin do is definately Kung Fu. It was definately taught by a man of Chinese descent, born and raised in Indonesia, who adapted himself to live and do business in America. It's content is similar enough to other Chinese styles that it is plausible that it has a similar root as all those other styles which say they came from shaolin, and different enough that we can't say it actually is one of those other styles. (only a few of the forms seem to be exactly the same as those taught by other styles). Which forms came from where, who and when is unknown. How and why different elements were added can be debated, but can't be known for sure without talking to the people who added them.

not getting sufficient training, not understanding core principles, and employing various organizational methods does not change what animal it is.

If it looks like a dragon and sounds like a dragon, it must be a dragon. Now what's a dragon? ;)

[TingHexagram50]

Sorry for the repeated post.

" Do you realize there was NO SHAOLIN TEMPLE since long before you were born - until about 25 years ago when it looked to be a promising way to make money"

So let me get this straight. Up until 1982 there was no Shaolin temple. It never existed and some guy ..lets call him John Smith said "Hey..I've got a great idea..I was tripping on some awesome LSD last night..and I thought it would be a great marketing gimmick to make this new place called a "Shaolin temple". What's that you say? I'm gonna build this elborate structure with walls and a 1,000 pound gold Buddah. As another way to draw people in..I'm going to ask all my beer drinking buddies who are at home watching Jerry Springer to shave their heads, take a vow of celibacy, become vegetarians and try this new thing called "kung fu".

Clearly sir..you have delusions of grandeur!! For starters lets take a look at how if there was "NO SHAOLIN TEMPLE" since long before I was born..there would be no kung fu(of ANY style)..much less a "system of Shaolin"..much less..you guessed it..NO SHAO-LIN DO!!!

Therefore..I can only conclude that you are quite gullable and fall for just about any claim offered by someone and this is potentiated by the fact that he makes an innacurate claim that he was the "Grandmaster of Shao-lin".

I can claim that the USA elects a prime-minister as they do in Canada..doesn't mean its so!

[synack]

I take Shao-lin Tao at one of the Atlanta schools. My wife studies TKD and I can tell you they are worlds apart.

I like the people I've met in Shao-lin Tao (I'm new to it) and I think they have some great instructors. But like anything...some instructors aren't as great, but that doesn't mean the school is fake. Most everyone has a full time job.

As far as lineage is concerned. I try not to get into the lineage discussion because I think it's a waste of time. Nothing is proven and I'm a skeptic anyway. If I can't prove something, I won't waste my time on it.

If you have questions about Shaolin-do or Shao-lin Tao (whereever you are located). Stop in and watch a class... you can even attend if you want. Nobody will bite.. we're all nice people like you. I don't feel like I'm being "taken" by attending a school with a non-proven lineage because I went in and watched. Liked what I saw and signed up.

Too bad the internet bullies won't bother to check it out for themselves.

peace,
synack

[Erasmus Mingatt]

"It was definately taught by a man of Chinese descent, born and raised in Indonesia, who adapted himself to live and do business in America"

There is no Shaolin temple in Indonesia.

I've been unfairly judged here. I'm not saying that SD is an ineffective fighting style..nor am I suggesting that a person should not learn it.

I'm sure that the style trains its practitioners adequately to get the job done..and in the end..that is what matters..

It's with some of the CLAIMS made..that's a horse of a different color.

[Chain Whip]

There is no Shaolin temple in Indonesia.

Correct - there was no Shaolin Temple anywhere at the time GM The' began training. Yes, the temple was reopened/rebuilt around 1982. There was a Shaolin Temple(s) at least until the 1920's. So, if it about the building and not the transference of knowledge - then none of us have traditional Shaolin Kung Fu. We could only have the new 25 year old style called Shaolin because it comes from a building that was reconstructed on the same site. They teach modern wushu there.


I've been unfairly judged here. I'm not saying that SD is an ineffective fighting style..nor am I suggesting that a person should not learn it.

Thank you.

I'm sure that the style trains its practitioners adequately to get the job done..and in the end..that is what matters..

Again - I agree and thank you. I have seen some outstanding people in Shaolin-Do and some awful ones. Just like any school/style/system/art/ that has a lot of students.

It's with some of the CLAIMS made..that's a horse of a different color.

Cannot argue this point. Some of the claims and history are "out there" I really wish they weren't.

.............................

To say it isn't CMA is silly. Yes, we use too many Japanese terms, but that does not change the forms/katas:) Also, a lot of the basic material looks like Japanese Karate - seeing we believe the Japanese got their martial arts from China - shouldn't real traditional Chinese martial arts have a similar look? In other words it isn't that our early stuff looks like Japanese Karate, it is that Japanese Karate looks like rudimentary Shaolin. In one of Robert Smiths first books he had a quote from a Chinese martial arts master that was essentially "Karate is nothing more that rudimentary Shaolin" If this is true (and I am not old enough to have been there and witnessed the first time a Japanese person learned from a Chinese person) then it would be hard to say you are doing Shaolin unless you had material that strongly resembled Japanese Karate. You would also need the I Chin Ching and a few other things to be real traditional.

However, if you believe that it is only CMA if it falls into the what we would classify as being modern. We have many forms that are taught in other CMA schools. Our Tiger/Crane, Classical Hua, Preying Mantis, some spear forms, some of the Drunken forms, several of the sword forms, etc. etc. etc. If we aren't doing CMA then most CMA schools aren't either.

Hopefully, we can all agree that our lineage and history are suspect. But, as in any school, the people that train hard, develop skills and improve their health.

Some of you may never have seen any of our art done by reasonably skilled people. I just found these clips on Master Grooms' YouTube Channel. Maybe I'm wrong, but broadsword, drunken, and 3-sectional sound Chinese to me. The 3-sectional is just a guy with a few years training doing some spins. The other two forms can be found elsewhere in the world of CMA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACZAk5fKrys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwLrwRefi-c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWfUBipuzXk

[WhiteEarp]

Well i'm throwing myself in the mix again. Just for the hack of it. I love this discussion. There's no end to it!:D
Anyway, Shaolin-Do...
Allright picture this:

Put a shaolin-do practicioner in say pants, feiyue shoes and a t-shirt.
Change all the terminology into Chinese. Call Shaolin-Do Shaolin-Tao or something else.
I don't think anyone would be complaining as much as they do now.
And again if you people have been reading through the posts.
Yes!
There was a school in Bandung Indonesia and yes they taught kung fu.
(And kun-tao for the indonesian people.)

Let's examen this for awhile. It's 1961. Indonesia, there were not many kung fu schools outside of Asia.
There were no big branches no commercially exploited international schools with shiny uniforms.

It was hardcore to the bone. The trainingregiments in those days were grizly hard.
Broken bones and other serious injuries are not uncommon you train everyday for 6 hours.

Instead of going 2/3 times a week for 2 hours to your local school after work.
If you know some history about indonesia after WWII you would know that chinese we're(and still are) not the most loved people there. CMA and other traditions we're forbidden by the state.

So some masters put the pupils in Gi's and gave them rankingbelts and used indonesian/japanese terminology. In secret they were still teaching kung fu.
In those days, who the hell cared what you wore anyway?? :confused:
On the old black and white pictures i see just an old man with a white t shirt and black pants and chinese shoes.

It reminds me of Skateboarding back in the day. If you didn't wore Airwalk sneakers an pants hanging on your ass and XXL shirts and used words from the street you weren't a real "skater" according to the so called "skaters maffia". But one guy who just wore "normal clothing" and just spoke "normal" beated all of the other guys on technique speed and agility.:p

Is this happening to the kung fu? We now have a kungfu maffia deciding for us what's real kung fu and what's not based on what language they speak/use and what clothes they were and what kind of system they use to keep track of each students progress??:rolleyes:

[BentMonk]

Of the three clips posted the drunken form is, IMO the best one. I consider this to be an example of good SD. I also see nothing but TCMA in that form.

[Lamassu]

Of the three clips posted the drunken form is, IMO the best one. I consider this to be an example of good SD. I also see nothing but TCMA in that form.

Nah! It's apparent now after watching those three vids that GM The is totally ripping us off! Any of these trolls, Erasmus, TH50, could kick Master Grooms @$$. I don't even know who they are or if they're any good, but they talk a lot of trash so they must be a bunch of bad@$$es! :p

"It's not real kung fu because you guys wear japanese gi's; and 'Do's a japanese word."

LOL

You trolls are the ones that keep this thread going, so in that respect, thank you. :D

[sunfist]

Also, a lot of the basic material looks like Japanese Karate - seeing we believe the Japanese got their martial arts from China - shouldn't real traditional Chinese martial arts have a similar look? In other words it isn't that our early stuff looks like Japanese Karate, it is that Japanese Karate looks like rudimentary Shaolin. In one of Robert Smiths first books he had a quote from a Chinese martial arts master that was essentially "Karate is nothing more that rudimentary Shaolin" If this is true (and I am not old enough to have been there and witnessed the first time a Japanese person learned from a Chinese person) then it would be hard to say you are doing Shaolin unless you had material that strongly resembled Japanese Karate.


There is no absolute proof of anything, so how do we know?

But of course i know, because i take shaolin do!

http://www.richmond.k12.mi.us/~lmacdonald/March/SEUDONE.gif

[WhiteEarp]

There is no absolute proof of anything, so how do we know?

But of course i know, because i take shaolin do!

http://www.richmond.k12.mi.us/~lmacdonald/March/SEUDONE.gif

Anyway, (okinawa) Karate is derived from White Crane.
I once saw a Sensei in Ishin Ryu(mix of sports and traditional karate)perform a form for me and my brother. And i recognized some of the techniques.

But i can see that the late grandmasters didn't tell everything to the japanese.
Some techniques they performed in their form are just plain "wrong" according to my teacher.

[MasterKiller]

Some of you may never have seen any of our art done by reasonably skilled people. I just found these clips on Master Grooms' YouTube Channel. Maybe I'm wrong, but broadsword, drunken, and 3-sectional sound Chinese to me. The 3-sectional is just a guy with a few years training doing some spins. The other two forms can be found elsewhere in the world of CMA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACZAk5fKrys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwLrwRefi-c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWfUBipuzXk

The broadsword and drunken look like Karate guys trying to play Kung Fu. They have the execution, but not the flavor, which is indicative of all the SD I've seen. The time spent in Indonesia seems to have changed the way your people execute Chinese forms, which is why people tell you it's not CMA, even though you can see CMA technqiues.

JP's Horse Cutter was probably the most Chinese-looking SD form I've seen so far, and that includes the videos of Sin The'.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The broadsword and drunken look like Karate guys trying to play Kung Fu. They have the execution, but not the flavor, which is indicative of all the SD I've seen.

JP's Horse Cutter was probably the most Chinese-looking SD form I've seen so far, and that includes the videos of Sin The'.

I would have to agree.
It just seems like its "karate-like kung fu".

Even Shoriniji Kempo is more "kung fu like" than that.

Wither you use Gi's of Japanese "terminology" matters very little to me, but it just doesn't look like any Shaolin-based forms I ahve seen.

[WhiteEarp]

I would have to agree.
It just seems like its "karate-like kung fu".

Even Shoriniji Kempo is more "kung fu like" than that.

Wither you use Gi's of Japanese "terminology" matters very little to me, but it just doesn't look like any Shaolin-based forms I ahve seen.


Okay this looks well uhm... not bad or something but indeed it looks like karate or kempo people trying to imitate modern wushu forms.
It does not look like anything i've been tought and my master went to the same place and in the same period as your grand master did.:)
Please don't take this as bashing or flaming or anything.
I'm curious do you have a monkeyform you could post here.(a non acrobatic and non show version please)you may also send me a private message.

[Chain Whip]

The broadsword and drunken look like Karate guys trying to play Kung Fu. They have the execution, but not the flavor,

I would say you are completely correct on this "flavor" point.

When we have done demos in China, they recognize our "flavor" as being traditional CMA. It appears many people aren't able to recognize TCMA because they have only seen modern traditional and wushu (not that there seems to be much difference)

Besides hitting with power what else is it that we do that "flavors" the movements in a way you are unfamilar with?

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Look..

If you're being attacked..I don't care if you call what you learn in the style "oogie-boogies" instead of forms. I also don't care if you practice your MA in the nude or with armor like the Knights did in mideval times. Nor do I care if you claim to know 5 million forms or just 3!(if you exclude weapon sets..Wing Chun only has 3 forms). A raving psychotic wants to cause you HARM..if you jab the f-cker in the eye and elbow smash him in the windpipe..unless he's on PCP and thinks he can fly/is Jesus..he's more than likely going to go down. Call it kung fu, shaolin do, Dying slug style, I'm hung like a bear on Growth hormone fist..who cares!(this is "from a pragmatic POV)

BUT...

"To say it isn't CMA is silly."


Technically Karate is CMA based..technically so is Jiu Jitsu,etc.etc. When these styles grew and evolved from Feudal Japan/Okinawa and were modified by subtracting moves and changing around certain philosophies..for example the way punches are thrown and how power is generating in a different manner..it may have Chinese ORIGINS..but it really becomes something else. When Bruce Lee modified Wing Chun and added aspects of boxing and fencing..it was no longer Wing Chun..it became the core identity of JKD. I'm not saying this is bad..nor am I saying it is good..I'm just saying it is what
"IS"





"Yes, we use too many Japanese terms, but that does not change the forms/katas Also, a lot of the basic material looks like Japanese Karate - seeing we believe the Japanese got their martial arts from China - shouldn't real traditional Chinese martial arts have a similar look?"

Real traditional Chinese martial arts should look LIKE real TCMA.
I think again to clarify it would be helpful to understand that I don't look at another form of MA and say "If it's not KF..it's worthless..I don't want to learn it". Aikido and Kuk Sool Won are two styles..I'd like to learn..one is Japanese..one is Korean. But both are performed and look COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than eachother since both are looking to do completely different things. You don't try and learn TKD and then call it "Aikido-Do" because it's not Aikido!


"In other words it isn't that our early stuff looks like Japanese Karate, it is that Japanese Karate looks like rudimentary Shaolin."

In alot of respects..Japanese Karate IS rudimentary Shaolin..but that's not the point. Japanese Karate doesn't claim that Sensei ------- who founded the system was GM of Shaolin.

"If this is true (and I am not old enough to have been there and witnessed the first time a Japanese person learned from a Chinese person) then it would be hard to say you are doing Shaolin unless you had material that strongly resembled Japanese Karate."

I suppose but to get the time line accurate it would be the other way around. And again.. what is meant by rudimentary? Shaolin as a PLACE..has hundreds and perhaps thousands of styles. Some are sub styles..some are modifications of existing styles..some are novel and some are dead styles. I would have less of an issue if Robert Smith said --------- or -------- - Do is a modification of --------- style of kung fu. Saying a modification of Shaolin is a malapropism. It's like saying that ------ style is a modification of Dojo. One is the place where Karate-ka practice..and what they practice is the MA.

I'll explain it from a slightly different stance. There is a "kung fu" school about 5 miles away from where I live(It's not SD but another school). When I first moved here I called this school and asked "What style of Kung fu do you teach"? They paused and said "Shaolin". I thanked them politely and hung up. Saying one teaches Shaolin is almost like calling a 4 year University and asking "What majors does your University offer?" and the representative says "College". See my point now?



"You would also need the I Chin Ching and a few other things to be real traditional." One can learn traditional kung fu without never opening the I-Ching.

"However, if you believe that it is only CMA if it falls into the what we would classify as being modern. We have many forms that are taught in other CMA schools. Our Tiger/Crane, Classical Hua, Preying Mantis, some spear forms, some of the Drunken forms, several of the sword forms, etc. etc. etc. If we aren't doing CMA then most CMA schools aren't either."

OK..yes..but again to digress. Tiger-Crane is a form from Hung Ga. Classical Hua(flower fist) is a form originally derived from Bak Sil Lum(an umbrella term to include the 5 Northern fighting families). Preying Mantis is a complete style with many branches and within "Preying mantis" are different forms.

If SD wants to borrow forms from other styles fine. But give credit to those styles. Don't say that these forms are part of a system that is named after a temple.

[MasterKiller]

When we have done demos in China, they recognize our "flavor" as being traditional CMA. It appears many people aren't able to recognize TCMA because they have only seen modern traditional and wushu (not that there seems to be much difference)

blah blah.

The Chinese say....When we were in CHina....This old Chinese guy at a tournament said...

Fortune Cookie anectdotes.

[Lamassu]

The broadsword and drunken look like Karate guys trying to play Kung Fu. They have the execution, but not the flavor, which is indicative of all the SD I've seen. The time spent in Indonesia seems to have changed the way your people execute Chinese forms, which is why people tell you it's not CMA, even though you can see CMA technqiues.

JP's Horse Cutter was probably the most Chinese-looking SD form I've seen so far, and that includes the videos of Sin The'.

I've noticed that as well when comparing SD forms with other TCM forms. SD isn't excecuted as fluidly as say, Hung Gar, Wing Chun, or Shaolin (in reference to the bald guys living in the temples). I've also noticed the utter lack of forms comparably similar from our school and others. All this is frustrating for a student of SD when talking shop with martial artists in other schools, because our technique isn't traditionally TCM in excecution, but neither is it karate. Eh, all I know is I likes it and it makes me good! :D

[Chain Whip]

I'll explain it from a slightly different stance. There is a "kung fu" school about 5 miles away from where I live(It's not SD but another school). When I first moved here I called this school and asked "What style of Kung fu do you teach"? They paused and said "Shaolin". I thanked them politely and hung up. Saying one teaches Shaolin is almost like calling a 4 year University and asking "What majors does your University offer?" and the representative says "College". See my point now?

Again it is your issue with terminology. If you made the same phone call to many schools in China, especially the ones in DongFong. You have to hang up on most of them. Probably the biggest school in Beijing is called something like "The Beijing Shaolin Wushu Academy" The head guy there "trained at the Shaolin Temple" He says he does Shaolin Kung-Fu. Their demos are pure modern wushu with parlor trick "chi demos" -- exactly like they do at the Temples.

[Chain Whip]

blah blah.

The Chinese say....When we were in CHina....This old Chinese guy at a tournament said...

Fortune Cookie anectdotes.

Great answer - I see what you mean about "flavor" I'm converted now - can I come train with you??????:D:D:D:D

[Erasmus Mingatt]

http://www.morrowsacademy.com/

Another guy who is misrepresenting kung fu. I checked this guy out twice and he's doing Shotokan Karate. I asked to see some of his 5 animal forms and I don't know WHAT the he-l he's doing.

[KungFu Student]

Great answer - I see what you mean about "flavor" I'm converted now - can I come train with you??????:D:D:D:D

The real question you need to ask yourself is why should you care what they naysayer’s on this thread think? As you have seen, no matter what you say or do will change their minds, they are already made up. If you are happy with your training, then stick with it, and pay no attention to the detractors.

[MasterKiller]

Burying your head in the sand is always a good tactic in life.

Use what others say to inform yourself.

If you like it, that's cool. But that's no reason to walk around ignorant.

[KungFu Student]

Burying your head in the sand is always a good tactic in life.

Use what others say to inform yourself.

If you like it, that's cool. But that's no reason to walk around ignorant.

How is being content with your training and disagreeing with another's point of view being ignorant? I personally don't see the point in trying to convince someone who's mind is already made up.

[Black Jack II]

Technically Karate is CMA based..technically so is Jiu Jitsu,etc.etc

One of the biggest myths ever....no proof in this.

[Mas Judt]

Well, Sumo probably is rooted in CMA ... the Sumo syllabus of throws is classical Shuai Chiao minus the big belly...

Some karate is rooted in Fukien Kung Fu - although they totally misinterpreted it. The similarities between 5 ancestors fist and some Karate is fairly obvious - although it the karate version is certainly something different now....


But it is not a valid thing to say 'karate evolved from CMA, therefore karate is the same as CMA or Shoalin.

The only serious issue CMA players have with SD is the outright lies and BS about 'the grandmaster of shaolin' et al. Long hashed over. Isn't this put to rest yet?

[MasterKiller]

How is being content with your training and disagreeing with another's point of view being ignorant? I personally don't see the point in trying to convince someone who's mind is already made up.

Well, how does SD not looking like CMA keep you from being content?

A lot of people seem to have an enormous amount of emotional and personal investment in maintaining that SD is real Shaolin.

If you are truely content in the training, it shouldn't matter.

[Lamassu]

Well, how does SD not looking like CMA keep you from being content?

A lot of people seem to have an enormous amount of emotional and personal investment in maintaining that SD is real Shaolin.

If you are truely content in the training, it shouldn't matter.

It doesn't.

[MasterKiller]

It doesn't.

But for some on here, it does...

[KungFu Student]

But for some on here, it does...

I agree in the fact that some put too much emphasis on whether or not some art is considered traditional, has lineage ect. If that is important to you, great. The things that were important to me;
1. Would it make me into something more that I was? (An overweight slacker ;))
2. Is it something I would want to devote a part of my life to and strive to excel at?
3. Could I afford it? (Hey, I have to watch my pennies!)

I don't expect the execution of my forms to look like a Shaolin monk, a TCMA practitioner, or anybody else. I am who I am, and the way I go through my forms will be different. I make no claims, and if someone does not like the fact that it does not look like what they believe is TCMA, then so be it.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

"Again it is your issue with terminology."

But chainwhip..it's IMPORTANT amigo!! If you are scheduled to get your appendix removed and before you go under the gas..the surgeon looks at your chart and says "Ah.yes..Mr. Chainwhip..we see you are going to have one of your testicles removed"..wouldn't you say "Uh..hey doc..WHOA!!..you got the wrong chart there sir"?

Take some verifiable traditional kung fu for a few years and THEN you will see what I mean. Some examples of good styles include(in no particular order): Wing Chun, Eagle Claw(not eagle claw wu-shu), Preying mantis(there are several versions--some include 7 star, 8 step, wah lum, plum blossom, tai chi mantis, 6 harmonies), Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut, Bak Mei(white eyebrow style), Chang Chuan and others.



"Probably the biggest school in Beijing is called something like "The Beijing Shaolin Wushu Academy" The head guy there "trained at the Shaolin Temple" He says he does Shaolin Kung-Fu. Their demos are pure modern wushu"

Wu shu and kung fu are not the same thing. Wu Shu is a demonstration sport..it's analagous to Sport Tae Kwon Do when compared to the TKD"

"with parlor trick "chi demos"


chi is not a parlor trick. There are some things that some sifus do which is not a real fair demonstration of chi--but trust me...it exists. It would be wise to not counter with "no..chi is a myth"..unless you want to open up a can of worms and have this thread go on for ANOTHER 300 something pages!



What state do you live in? I'm sure I could recommend several schools..just for your own knowledge...you'd be pleasantly suprised at the difference.

[Judge Pen]

JP's Horse Cutter was probably the most Chinese-looking SD form I've seen so far, and that includes the videos of Sin The'.


That's funny to me, because that form has been done that way for as long as I can remember. I did it the way I was taught and I didn't try to change its appearance in any way. And, I kow I'm really a poor forms person in comparison.

I will say that the drunk guy was very very good. I have trouble seeing how his techniques, such as the 360 degree front sweep that I've only seen done that way in other chinese styles, doesn't look CMA enough. I can understand people picking at a drunk form's applicability/utility, but not the origin of the techniques displayed.

I'll agree that there has been some influence on the way SD is perfomred that has altered the way its forms are done when compared to other CMA forms. And, at the same time, the way that CMA evolved in other areas. I think that SD in Bangdung was probably isolated from other CMA and it took on more of a power emphasis instead of the flowing emphasis that other CMA has more of. That makes SD its own unique animal, but I still maintain that its origins are chinese, not japanese, korean or indonesian.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

"That makes SD its own unique animal, but I still maintain that its origins are chinese, not japanese, korean or indonesian."

Doesn't this get tiring after a while? Having an ORIGIN isn't the same thing as BEING the same thing.

My origins are from my mother and father. I have traits from both..but you don't see me saying "I AM my father(or mother)."

[Judge Pen]

Classical Hua(flower fist) is a form originally derived from Bak Sil Lum(an umbrella term to include the 5 Northern fighting families). Preying Mantis is a complete style with many branches and within "Preying mantis" are different forms.

If SD wants to borrow forms from other styles fine. But give credit to those styles. Don't say that these forms are part of a system that is named after a temple.

Bak Si Lum is southern shaolin, right. Si Lum is the Cantonese pronouciation of the mandarian shaolin. Hua chuan that is taught in SD isn't the flower fist but the hua mountain fist, a nothern long-fist form.

Here's what I believe: Many teachers taugth many styles in Indonesia with Ie Chang Ming being recognized as the lead instructor. He claimed lineage to Su Kong (whether true or not). Several forms from many divergent styles were taught. Whether these styles originated in a shaolin temple or were incorporated into a shoalin temple later--they have a shaolin connection. Hence the art that is taught in the U.S. is a patchwork of chinese forms with a connection with the temple that have taken on its own unique flavor. It is its own animal. Maybe it deserves its own designation. It is kung fu and it is different than kung fu. It has styles and techniques that are only found in kung fu, but it is recognizable as flavored differently. So what is it? As offensive as it may be, I will still say kung fu. How many styles of CMA were derived from another and modified to the point that they are divergently different from the styles that composed it? Are those styles not still kung fu even if unrecognizable to the people that practice the root style?

To go back to the Bruce Lee example, he modified wing chun and added elements from other arts. Is JKD a style of kung fu or something else?

[Judge Pen]

"That makes SD its own unique animal, but I still maintain that its origins are chinese, not japanese, korean or indonesian."

Doesn't this get tiring after a while? Having an ORIGIN isn't the same thing as BEING the same thing.

My origins are from my mother and father. I have traits from both..but you don't see me saying "I AM my father(or mother)."

Nah, this is fun! Ultimately all martial arts is an evolution into something else. It amuses me at how a name or the trappings can anger people so much when I dare say that their MA probably would be unrecognizable to people 250 years ago who supposedly did the same stuff.

[Judge Pen]

Isn't this put to rest yet?

As long as new people come along and stumble across threads like this, this matter will be hashed over again and again.

How are things going? I keep meaning to get down and check out R. Clear's school close to me.

[MasterKiller]

I will say that the drunk guy was very very good. I have trouble seeing how his techniques, such as the 360 degree front sweep that I've only seen done that way in other chinese styles, doesn't look CMA enough.

Because he looks like a Karate guy imitating Kung Fu.

[Lamassu]

Because he looks like a Karate guy imitating Kung Fu.

In what way? :confused: What are the details that Master Grooms is lacking in order for his 360 sweep to look like a kung fu guy doing a kung fu move instead of a karate guy doing a kung fu move? And please give me more than merely the fact he's wearing a gi.

[Fu-Pow]

I haven't chimed in on this thread other than to say "Yeah Shaolin-Do suck" every couple years or so".....just to be a smart ass.

But one thing I'd like to point out having read the last couple pages of messages is that Shaolin-Do wouldn't have so many problems if it didn't emphasize forms so much.

One poster noted that if a technique works then why should we care if its CMA or JMA or MMA or whatever?

I totally agree and I'll take it one step further.....

Why are forms so important to SD at all? I think the forms are what get SD "in trouble" with other forms-based schools. The execution of the forms is more like JMA than CMA. Looking across other schools and styles its quite obvious.

But my point is....so what? The forms aren't that important anyways. SD, like any other style of CMA/JMA would do better by abandoning forms almost entirely and concentrating on conditioning, drills, competitive drills and competitive sparring formats.

Let it evolve into something new that's beyond national distinctions.

Do you see my point?

[Judge Pen]

Fu Pow,

That's a criticism that can be carried over to many styles like CLf, p. Mantis, BSL, wah lum etc. (styles with several forms). But as each would say, forms have a tradition in their style. It provides structure and an aestic that has value to the people that chose to participate in these styles.

I have a handful of forms that I focus on and the rest, I keep up well enough to stay current in my style and my rank in that style. To me the rank or the number of forms doesn't mean that much, really, but that's not the case with everyone.

The fact is people enjoy forms. I confess, I like weapon forms for the simple fact that they are cool to see a rack full of weapons and know a form with each that you can play around with. You don't have to do them to get into shape or to be a fighter, but if they keep people interested in the style and keep people in shape and improving their own selfs (for self-defense or whatever) then its a good thing.

[MasterKiller]

Fu-Pow,
You can keep your forms and still fight. I maintain my handsets at home and train MMA/submission wrestling/San Shou at class.

You don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but if your practice time gets pressed, forms should be the first thing to go...

If you want to be a fighter, that is.

[Judge Pen]

Fu-Pow,
You can keep your forms and still fight. I maintain my handsets at home and train MMA/submission wrestling/San Shou at class.

You don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but if your practice time gets pressed, forms should be the first thing to go...

If you want to be a fighter, that is.

You still keep up with your Monk's Spade as well?

[Chain Whip]

chi is not a parlor trick. There are some things that some sifus do which is not a real fair demonstration of chi--but trust me...it exists.

One, I don't trust you. Two, I never said chi didn't exist. I just said their demos were not demonstrations of chi. Simple basic physics explains all the tricks and most anyone could do the same things.

--

On another note the guy doing the Flexible Immortal is one of Master Grooms' students. The guy in form (Steve Wieck) is about 6'5" tall -- Master Grooms is about 5'8"

[Chain Whip]

The time spent in Indonesia seems to have changed the way your people execute Chinese forms, which is why people tell you it's not CMA, even though you can see CMA technqiues.

Maybe the time spent in Communist China especially during the Cultural Revolution changed the way your people execute Chinese forms. Which is why most CMA people look like dancers that can't hit worth a darn to us, even though you can see CMA technqiues.

[Judge Pen]

Maybe the time spent in Communist China especially during the Cultural Revolution changed the way your people execute Chinese forms. Which is why most CMA people look like dancers that can't hit worth a darn to us, even though you can see CMA technqiues.

I don't think the forms stayed in stasis. I think they continue to change and evolve despite the best intentions to keep them consistent.

[MasterKiller]

Maybe the time spent in Communist China especially during the Cultural Revolution changed the way your people execute Chinese forms. Which is why most CMA people look like dancers that can't hit worth a darn to us, even though you can see CMA technqiues.

Um, my kung fu left China in the 1940s.

[MasterKiller]

You still keep up with your Monk's Spade as well?

I play around with the rope dart now and then, but for the most part I don't have enough time to maintain all my weapons forms.

When I'm too old to fight I'll go back to them, which shouldn't be too far away. :D

[BlueTravesty]

Maybe the time spent in Communist China especially during the Cultural Revolution changed the way your people execute Chinese forms. Which is why most CMA people look like dancers that can't hit worth a darn to us, even though you can see CMA technqiues.

I've always loved this theory. All those teachers fleeing communist china and teaching in hong kong, taiwan and the US were all "secret commies"

That's almost as good as Gabriel Chin's "Chen Style Tai Chi is a communist hoax" theory.

[WhiteEarp]

Good point. And correct.
Most masters fled china because of the (proven) witchhunt.
Communists are materialistic. So there is no space for "chi" and special "herbs".

But at one point they found out they lost a lot of tradition through this. So Wushu, a competition form was born.

And now some 30/40 odd years from the first wushu forms they want more traditional Kung Fu again because foreigners are taking a walk with them.

Why would so many foreigners would know kung fu, only one explanation. That a lot of masters migrated out of that communist hole.
Most traditional masters in those days could be found in Vietnam, Taiwan,Hong Kong, Indonesia or Thailland.(some mongolia)
It is no myth it is fact. Just search the internet on Chinese imigrants after WWII.

[sunfist]

Anyway, (okinawa) Karate is derived from White Crane.
I once saw a Sensei in Ishin Ryu(mix of sports and traditional karate)perform a form for me and my brother. And i recognized some of the techniques.

But i can see that the late grandmasters didn't tell everything to the japanese.
Some techniques they performed in their form are just plain "wrong" according to my teacher.

So when you see someone with a legitimate karate lineage perform a technique, which your shaolin do master does differently, your immediate conclusion is the karate guy is 'wrong'.

****ing brilliant.

[synack]

I said before I wouldn't address the lineage argument. But reading through this thread... I now want to address it.

Here's my take:

Do I think the lineage is bull****? Yes and No

Yes, I think Ie knew Kung fu and yes I think GM Sin knows Kung Fu. Do I think there was a legendary hairy monk? No, But that doesn't make it not Kung Fu. It does however make you wonder where the Kung Fu came from.

Also I'd like to add that I think it is unfortunate that GM Sin knows these questions are constantly surrounding his school. Yet he leaves his students to answer what they cannot. If I ever have the chance to speak with him and the subject of his school comes up. I will ask about the lineage and explain what his students are having to defend. (something by which he brought out in the open and only he can prove). It takes a lack of due care to put your students in that place (IMHO). I consider myself to be under M Grooms not GM Sin. (until he clears up the cloudiness)

Do I like Shao-lin Tao? Yes, and I do not think it's Karate (I know ppl who have taken Karate). But, I do think people are rushed through forms way too much. I do work on everything I learn in my free time, usually at the gym when I'm not running or lifting.

But to conclude, only GM Sin or Hiang can answer any of this. And I think there are reasons that they aren't (either it isn't provable or it's a fabrication).

[WhiteEarp]

So when you see someone with a legitimate karate lineage perform a technique, which your shaolin do master does differently, your immediate conclusion is the karate guy is 'wrong'.

****ing brilliant.

No And i'm not shaolin-do, there are no shaolin-do schools in holland.
Anyway. I do Choy Li Fut , yang style tai chi and hou quan, if you read some of my posts you would know this.:rolleyes:

Anyway, example: a kick with the knifeedge of your foot against the knee. Now, a karate practicioner first liftshis foot up turns his hip in and then kicks to the knee.

This is the karate way.;)

Now the kung fu way. you keep your hip and body still and lift your foot up and kick with the knifeedge and imediatly put your feet back.
Cost less time. you don't use your hip and the oponent has more difficulty detecting your move. Were if a karateka would kick him "the karate way" he would imediately see him turn his waste/hip etc.

Now those are the little secrets the masters didn't tell the japanese! So in a "kung fu way" i would consider this wrong.

But in a general martial arts way there is one rule: there are no "wrong styles" it depends solely on the practicioner. So you've must have understood me wrong.
i love to watch okinawa karate http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbiN5IerC00 just much as i love to watch contemporary shaolin monks or MMA fights.

[MasterKiller]

Also I'd like to add that I think it is unfortunate that GM Sin knows these questions are constantly surrounding his school. Yet he leaves his students to answer what they cannot. If I ever have the chance to speak with him and the subject of his school comes up. I will ask about the lineage and explain what his students are having to defend. (something by which he brought out in the open and only he can prove). It takes a lack of due care to put your students in that place (IMHO). I consider myself to be under M Grooms not GM Sin. (until he clears up the cloudiness)

I don't think Sin is necessarily the driving force behind the aggressive "Shaolin" marketing campaign. More like Bill Leonard and the SDA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

From my "limited" experience, the little I have seen looks like "karatefied kung fu".

Kind of crappy too.

[Baqualin]

I don't think Sin is necessarily the driving force behind the aggressive "Shaolin" marketing campaign. More like Bill Leonard and the SDA.

MK,
That statement makes absolutely no sense what so ever.:confused:
BQ

[Baqualin]

No And i'm not shaolin-do, there are no shaolin-do schools in holland.
Anyway. I do Choy Li Fut , yang style tai chi and hou quan, if you read some of my posts you would know this.:rolleyes:

Anyway, example: a kick with the knifeedge of your foot against the knee. Now, a karate practicioner first liftshis foot up turns his hip in and then kicks to the knee.

This is the karate way.;)

Now the kung fu way. you keep your hip and body still and lift your foot up and kick with the knifeedge and imediatly put your feet back.
Cost less time. you don't use your hip and the oponent has more difficulty detecting your move. Were if a karateka would kick him "the karate way" he would imediately see him turn his waste/hip etc.

Now those are the little secrets the masters didn't tell the japanese! So in a "kung fu way" i would consider this wrong.

But in a general martial arts way there is one rule: there are no "wrong styles" it depends solely on the practicioner. So you've must have understood me wrong.
i love to watch okinawa karate http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbiN5IerC00 just much as i love to watch contemporary shaolin monks or MMA fights.

And while we're sorting through the BS on here your teacher was never a student of GM Ie.:eek:
BQ

[Judge Pen]

So when you see someone with a legitimate karate lineage perform a technique, which your shaolin do master does differently, your immediate conclusion is the karate guy is 'wrong'.

****ing brilliant.

White Earp doesn't do shaolin do, but he says that his teacher did train with Master Ie for a period of time in Indonesia. So don't lump SD in with him or him in with SD.

[Judge Pen]

I said before I wouldn't address the lineage argument. But reading through this thread... I now want to address it.

Here's my take:

Do I think the lineage is bull****? Yes and No

Yes, I think Ie knew Kung fu and yes I think GM Sin knows Kung Fu. Do I think there was a legendary hairy monk? No, But that doesn't make it not Kung Fu. It does however make you wonder where the Kung Fu came from.

Also I'd like to add that I think it is unfortunate that GM Sin knows these questions are constantly surrounding his school. Yet he leaves his students to answer what they cannot. If I ever have the chance to speak with him and the subject of his school comes up. I will ask about the lineage and explain what his students are having to defend. (something by which he brought out in the open and only he can prove). It takes a lack of due care to put your students in that place (IMHO). I consider myself to be under M Grooms not GM Sin. (until he clears up the cloudiness)

Do I like Shao-lin Tao? Yes, and I do not think it's Karate (I know ppl who have taken Karate). But, I do think people are rushed through forms way too much. I do work on everything I learn in my free time, usually at the gym when I'm not running or lifting.

But to conclude, only GM Sin or Hiang can answer any of this. And I think there are reasons that they aren't (either it isn't provable or it's a fabrication).

The thing is, Master Sin can't prove it either. Really, we know that there were more than one teacher in Indonesia and each of them taught their own stuff. Neither Master Hiang or GM The knew Su Kong Tai Djian; he reportedly died before either of them were born. If they were told about him, it would have to be from Ie and/or the other teachers there. Of course they would believe their teacher (or if they didn't I doubt they would have openly questioned him out of respect). So all the information they would have on Su Kong would be hearsay as well.

Ultimately whether Su Kong existed or didn't (in whatever capacity) is a little importance to me. There is no verifiable third-party accounts of Su Kong (although part of me would love for something like that to turn up--just to shake things up a bit). I do believe in GM The' and my teachers' ability and I think SD is a very good art. I've crossed hands with many people from differnt styles and backgrounds and, in those moments, arguments of lineage and flavor of forms seemed less important than the techniques that we were using at the time. I think that the people that I've crossed hands with came out of the encounter respecting me and what my teachers taught as I did with them and their teachers. I'm always willing to a friendly sparring session as that is what builds respect for each other and different styles. Isn't that what it should be about?

[Baqualin]

White Earp doesn't do shaolin do, but he says that his teacher did train with Master Ie for a period of time in Indonesia. So don't lump SD in with him or him in with SD.

JP,
If I ever need a Lawyer I'm calling you...your the most rational person on here. Hope all is well with the kids.
BQ:)

[Baqualin]

The thing is, Master Sin can't prove it either. Really, we know that there were more than one teacher in Indonesia and each of them taught their own stuff. Neither Master Hiang or GM The knew Su Kong Tai Djian. If they were told about him, it would have to be from Ie and/or the other teachers there. Of course they would believe their teacher (or if they did n't I doubt they would have openly questioned him out of respect). So all the information they would have on Su Kong would be hearsay as well.

DITTO:D
BQ

[Judge Pen]

I consider myself to be under M Grooms not GM Sin. (until he clears up the cloudiness)

synack,

I appreciate your willingness to come on here and participate in this merry-go-round of a dialogue. But if you're a student of Master Grooms then you are under Master Sin. Who do you think taught him? If you're happy with the art and what it is teaching you then don't get caught up in the lineage arguments, because trust me, it is not limited to SD. MANY major styles have spent countless hours arguing over legitmacy and lineage. Look at Wing Chun and the arguments over who was taught what by Yip Man. Heck there are branches of CLF who claim lineage to a "green grass" monk that is openly challenged by other branches of CLF and, in those circles, is just as controversial as Su Kong. Anything that claims lineage to "the Southern Temple" is going to have controversy in its lineage.

Do your kung fu (or whatever people want to call SD) and be happy.

[Baqualin]

Legends just legends.....all martial arts have their legends & lineage problems.
One thing I have noticed is that everytime someone meets GM Sin in person they always get real humble and very respectful....they may go back to their BS later but not to his face.:cool:
BQ

[Baqualin]

Originally Posted by synack
I consider myself to be under M Grooms not GM Sin. (until he clears up the cloudiness)

I think you owe M. Grooms an apology.:(
BQ

[Judge Pen]

from another thread, but I thought it related to one of the petty debates here:

On another note, as "Tao" and "Do" are the same character (in two different dialects), the title annoys me to no end

Tao of Jeet Kune Do

"way of jeet kune way?"

way of jeet kune way of jeet kune way of jeet kune way....

[MasterKiller]

(in two different dialects)

. . . . . .

[Erasmus Mingatt]

You bring up several good points which I'd like to comment on.



"Do I think the lineage is bull****? Yes and No"

I believe Sin Kwang The probably did learn some form of martial arts from Ie Ching whatever his name is(it's in the morning and my retention of Chinese names is not good at this hour). Do I think there was a man with a rare disorder causing hair to grow over his face who learned kung fu? (Shrugs shoulders). I don't know. Do I think that said monk was "Grandmaster of the Shaolin temple". No. If for no other reason than the fact that BOTH temples(h-ll even the E-Mei and Wu-Tang temples) have never had a single individual who held the term "grandmaster". SD People can defend this claim all you want in the name of "well not everything has an unbroken written history,etc." as much as you want. The Shaolin temple didn't go from having no GM for centuries and thousands of yeas and **just coincidentally** in some time that may not have been accounted for..just all of a sudden decided to give someone the title just for a 'trial run". It does not work that way guys..


"Also I'd like to add that I think it is unfortunate that GM Sin knows these questions are constantly surrounding his school. Yet he leaves his students to answer what they cannot."


I'd have no problem whatsoever asking him these questions! I wouldn't resort to name calling..but it would be interesting to hear his answer. One rule of thumb I go by is to not go by heresay and small talk and go "straight to the horses mouth". In this case..the horse in question is the written history of Shaolin corroborated by what actual Shaolin monks(both past and present) say about what happened. And if noone has ever mentioned that there was a "grandmaster", that Shaolin is a "system", that it contains "900 forms" and other malapropisms and factual innacuracies..I just can't in all good concscience believe it! It's like using terminology in any branch of Protestant Christianity that is germane and unique ONLY to Protestantism and then applying it to the Catholic Church..when the Catholic Church never uses those concepts.


"It takes a lack of due care to put your students in that place (IMHO). " Quite right. It also shows a disparity between words and actions(lack of integrity).

I'm not saying every style of kung fu on earth has every aspect of lineage written down..but to reiterate(yet again)..you don't see and art like Ninjitsu say things like "Here in Togakure-Ryu Ninjitsu we proudly carry on the history and tradition of being pacifists..where Sifu(a CHINESE term for instructor..not Japanese) Sin instills the principles of pacifism and a committment to gentle ways among the ninja trainees". Why do I make such a statement? 1. Ninjas were TRAINED ASSASSINS..they were anything but peaceful 2. It's analagous to what SD is saying about claims referring to the Shaolin temple and kung fu styles emanating from it.

[synack]

Originally Posted by synack
I consider myself to be under M Grooms not GM Sin. (until he clears up the cloudiness)

I think you owe M. Grooms an apology.:(
BQ

I don't think I need to apologize to anyone. I like the art and the school. I don't like the tall tales. I know M. Grooms was a student of Sin. I know he probably likes him and respects him. But because he does and believes what he says. Doesn't mean that I have to or even justify what I believe or apologize for having an unpopular opinion.

Go to Sin's site and look through his bio... he talks about being attacked by six guys with knives and .... at first he is just "playing around" with them. Until he gets stabbed by a poison knife. So he takes care of everyone and goes home to get a secret antidote. I choose not to believe what he says because it's always "out there." And really for no reason but to keep this mysterious kung fu movie aura around himself.

It should be an honor for someone to want to learn from you. (edited here for better clarity)

This is why I didn't originally want to address the lineage because I have an unpopular view on it. AND I am a student of the school.

[Baqualin]

I don't think I need to apologize to anyone. I like the art and the school. I don't like the tall tales. I know M. Grooms was a student of Sin. I know he probably likes him and respects him. Go to Sin's site and look through his bio...
It should be an honor for someone to want to learn from you. As well as someone wanting you to teach them.

This is why I didn't originally want to address the lineage because I have an unpopular view on it. AND I am a student of the school.


I don't have to go to Sin's site, GMS was my teacher from 1974 till he moved to Ca. & I also took a few specialty classes from Hiang...EML is my teacher now & I also help teach the internal classes and you young man have no clue....there's no story you can tell me that I haven't already heard and I've seen things you will never see (all way before the movie sh!t)....it's an honor to have GMS as a teacher an a friend...everybody questions things & there's nothing wrong with that....it's all in the way you present yourself....JP is the closest to my beliefs on this forum & the only one that makes any sense. Go talk to shaolin wookie, Bruce or Mike Reid......oh, by the way M. Grooms is still a student of GMS, not was

[synack]

I don't have to go to Sin's site, GMS was my teacher from 1974 till he moved to Ca. & I also took a few specialty classes from Hiang...EML is my teacher now & I also help teach the internal classes and you young man have no clue....there's no story you can tell me that I haven't already heard and I've seen things you will never see (all before the movie sh!t)....it's an honor to have GMS as a teacher an a friend...everybody questions things & there's nothing wrong with that....it's all in the way you present yourself....JP is the closest to my beliefs on this forum & the only one that makes any sense. Go talk to shaolin wookie, Bruce or Mike Reid......oh, by the way M. Grooms is still a student of GMS, not was


There are things you've seen that I may never see? For instance?

What movie ****? I was referring to the way he presents himself to the public. Using an analogy.

If you've heard it all before then why such a knee jerk reaction?

[Judge Pen]

It should be an honor for someone to want to learn from you. (edited here for better clarity)


Every time I see Master The and have the chance to speak to him, he acts as if its his honor to have me as a student. He acts that way to all of his students. All the tall tales and website quotes aside, he is very down to earth and humble in person. I can forgive him for not caring about a petty internet dialogue over things that he really can't prove himself.

But don't take my word for it. Talk to your teachers about your thoughts.

[Baqualin]

There are things you've seen that I may never see? For instance?
GMS, his brother and other top masters in their prime and in action.


What movie ****? I was referring to the way he presents himself to the public. Using an analogy.

RE: And really for no reason but to keep this mysterious kung fu movie aura around himself.




If you've heard it all before then why such a knee jerk reaction?

Cause I feel you have presented yourself in a disrespectful way to M. Grooms & GMS ( Whom from your post you have never met) you can't give any credit to M. Grooms with out giving credit to GMS...everything he teaches you came from GMS....meet him & talk to him before you write him off.....Shaolin Wookie went through something similar....talk to him.
BQ

[Shaolin Wookie]

Synack==I'm the highest ranking brown belt at the Marietta school--Morgan.

Believe me, dude, if you think SD is an isolated case, go check out some of the other local schools. There's a dude in Smyrna who trains his WC students like they're military recruits. Their uniforms are military fatigues and berets, and they practice rapelling, and their teacher says he basically was a renegade crime fighter in his hometown. You have to interview to become a student. They're good, no doubt, but they're eccentric as all hell. NEvertheless, behind all that, they're regular guys who train hard and are good at what they do.

Case closed.

There are eccentric personalities throughout all of chinese martial arts. I've found very few down-to-earth guys, at least in my terms. One of the few exceptions are the guys at CSC. Trust me, you've got at least 5 sifus of excellent calibre. Master REid's the best teacher I've seen yet, though he probably wouldn't admit he was. I was taking Longfist from a wushu coach who explicated the deadly techniques of Shaolin Ch'uan, but when I asked if they practiced them in sparring, he said: "What? You mean fight? No...no...no...no...."...and it showed. But they had excellent form.

The stories are a part of the history of the art. But how often in class have you ever even heard them told, except by roundabout circumstance? Never. You read them in a book you don't have to buy, or you hear them ragged on here on this forum. CSC doesn't deny it, nor does SD. They don't hide it. But it isn't really a part of your practice, is it?

Do your forms. Practice your technique. Practice your applications. The rest is just tales and tradition, and every art has 'em. There's not a single school in Atlanta that I have not heard ragged on by another lineage. H. Poo Yee's southern mantis in Atlanta has feuds with another classmate's lineage, sometimes bitterly, calling each other false. The Eagle Claw school in ATL is billed as nothing more than wushu, but a session with those cats proved they had some BA mofos in class. Hell, my capoeira school (not quite billed as a deadly martial art) has some fighters in it that would clean the floor with plenty of guys on here [it helps the teacher was a boxer, and now has a former NHB BJJ fighter at school.]

Whether or not GM The' fought off six dudes with poisoned knives isn't going to help me block a punch. But the techs he taught will. Take the stories for entertainment. IF you're not entertained, then you'll just have to find a teacher with more far out stories, and there are quite a few within traveling distance. I can give you directions to them.:D Personally, I've decided I'd rather have a dude with a few stories tucked under his sleeve than some guy with none.

Anyways, train hard, train a lot. The stories don't mean much, except where it concerns the irrelevant traditions of the art. I didn't sign up to learn the stories of Shaolin Do, and I didn't agree to any clause that I had to believe the stories. If someone decides to rag on your lineage, and calls you a fake, offer to show 'em just how fake your art is. The meat of the art is its forms and techs. The stories are parsley.

And I only eat parsley when I'm out with my girlfriend and she double-dog dares me.

[synack]

Cause I feel you have presented yourself in a disrespectful way to M. Grooms & GMS ( Whom from your post you have never met) you can't give any credit to M. Grooms with out giving credit to GMS...everything he teaches you came from GMS....meet him & talk to him before you write him off.....Shaolin Wookie went through something similar....talk to him.
BQ

I didn't disrespect GMS by saying I think the tall tales are tall tales. They are of course... his stories. How am I being disrespectful?

I do credit GMS with teaching M Grooms but I have yet to see tall tales tied to M Grooms directly.

So I give him a slightly higher level of personal respect.

[synack]

@Shaolin Wookie

I do train and practice and I love the art. No question. But to say that because other schools in the area are equally "shady" in their lineage is no excuse for the cloudiness of our own.

But to say the questions should be ignored or to call someone disrespectful is just a way of sidestepping the question.

When someone questions something, it is always easier to attack the person questioning than the actual question. By calling them "disrespectful" or in the case of dissent to your government "unpatriotic" and on and on.

[Baqualin]

I didn't disrespect GMS by saying I think the tall tales are tall tales. They are of course... his stories. How am I being disrespectful?

I do credit GMS with teaching M Grooms but I have yet to see tall tales tied to M Grooms directly.

So I give him a slightly higher level of personal respect.

In the way you worded your statements by not reconizing M. Grooms Teacher....he is guilty before proven. All styles have their stories....but the stories directly related to GMS may not be as far fetched as you believe.....Su Kong is one thing, but I have seen with my own eyes & felt what GMS is capable of....this is what I meant by things you will never see...not mystical stuff but pure power, speed, and athletisism and at 64 he's still very impressive.
As I said you have some really good people in Atlanta go talk to them & meet GMS...he's a very unique indiviual....extremist sometimes.....but he is the real deal.
Good Luck,
BQ

[brucereiter]

Cause I feel you have presented yourself in a disrespectful way to M. Grooms & GMS ( Whom from your post you have never met) you can't give any credit to M. Grooms with out giving credit to GMS...everything he teaches you came from GMS....meet him & talk to him before you write him off.....Shaolin Wookie went through something similar....talk to him.
BQ

hi ya'all,

sr master grooms should be respected for the hard work he has put into practicing and teaching what grandmaster sin the' has taught him. i feel fortunate to be a student of sr master grooms who is a direct student of sin kwang the'.

master grooms has allowed me the freedom to think for myself and find out what works for me. the biggest thing he has taught me is how to think for myself, learn and how to teach myself. on the several occasions i have had to speak with sin the' i have found him to be very humble and kind.

i think it would be more interesting for us to talk about the content and usage of our style and also to discuss where each of us are in our training and understanding instead of bickering about the same old stuff ...

bruce

[synack]

I wasn't trying to disrespect anyone. I thought I had a legitimate question. If you feel I disrespected M Grooms or GMS by claiming to be under M Grooms instead, I'll apologize for that now. But it doesn't change how I view M Grooms and GMS's statements and it also doesn't nullify my questioning of GMS.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the school and the material. But I do think there is room for improvement on GMS's part especially on clarification of his lineage.

Personally, I tend to respect a more humble attitude. So telling stories about beating up 6 guys with poison knives and having a secret antidote and also claiming the GM of all of China's Shaolin temples seems very far fetched to me. It's just my opinion. I'd like clarification. Knowing this... I still choose to learn under his students. That should say something about his skill and the skill of the people I train with at the CSC's.

I think what I'm asking isn't disrespectful at all....but since you know GMS, I can see how you think it came off that way.

Ask him for clarification and we won't have to debate on a thread called "Is Shaolin-do for real" for 300 something pages.

peace,
synack

[Judge Pen]

I didn't disrespect GMS by saying I think the tall tales are tall tales. They are of course... his stories. How am I being disrespectful?

I do credit GMS with teaching M Grooms but I have yet to see tall tales tied to M Grooms directly.

So I give him a slightly higher level of personal respect.

If you'll notice, baqualin, shaolin wookie and myself all think that these are legends or tall tales also. But we still have a level of respect for our teacher's teacher. That is the difference.

[synack]

I see what you're saying. But how do you give a higher level of respect to someone who is your teacher's teacher.

When

1. a student should (IMO) almost always exceed his teacher in skill

and

2. the teacher's teacher isn't as humble in his public statements nor forthright?

Let's also not forget that this is a business and there is money changing hands. M Grooms from what I've read and seen of him has done nothing for me to question him. GMaster Sin The on the other hand has a lot of tall tales. I know you can simply discard them and keep a high level of respect. But for me, it's much more difficult.

As the old saying goes... Loose lips sink ships.

[synack]

But like I said earlier, this lineage argument will go nowhere. Bringing it up only causes conflict.

I said my apologies and I'll drop it if you agree to drop it. Otherwise we can go another 300 something pages.

I enjoy the school and the art. I'm just not the type of person who believes in the "mysterious" and not the type of person who lets unchecked statements go unnoticed. That's not to say I challenge everything under the sun (quite the contrary). I'm a peaceful person. But when money changes hands, things tend to get personal.

We've both said what we had to say.

Again peace to everyone SD or not,
synack

[Golden Tiger]

I consider myself to be under M Grooms not GM Sin.

I know M. Grooms was a student of Sin.

I was referring to the way [GMS] presents himself to the public.

I do credit GMS with teaching M Grooms but I have yet to see tall tales tied to M Grooms directly.

So I give him a slightly higher level of personal respect.



:rolleyes:

[Shaolin Wookie]

In answer to your question regarding respecting your teacher's teacher, try this:

In any occasion you see M. Grooms and GM Sin standing together, walk up and introduce yourself, then bow to M. Grooms with a traditional, formal, down-on-the knees bow, then get up and slightly incline your head towards GM Sin, and say: "'sup, dude?"

How do you think M. Grooms would feel about that? He'd be friggin' insulted, at the very least.

I've heard M. Grooms, and many senior students, are very protective of GM Sin. It isn't because he's under attack by ninjas, or anything. They just respect the hell out of him, as their teacher. IF you respect M. Grooms, you should respect his respects.

From a cynical perspective, if you have to take it....I prefer the skeptical....you ought to respect GM Sin for several reasons:

1. As you said: the system has merit, martially.
2. Without him, there wouldn't be said system.
3. Without him, there wouldn't be Shaolin-Do.
4. Without SD, there wouldn't be CSC.
5. Without him, there wouldn't be M. Grooms.
6. Without him, there wouldn't be you (martially).

[Shaolin Wookie]

If GM Sin seems a bit strange, or odd, that's just your character judgement. I know this: he has trained his entire life with far greater dedication and regularity than I, came from a poorer country and got a fine education at a great university, which is ranked higher than mine nationally, in a much more difficult major (from my perspective), and has run a very successful martial arts system (nationally), and from what I hear, it's hard enough for most people to just keep one school open.

I think he's a little eccentric, true. And I heard him give one or two lectures, stating many points I disagreed with. Sure, he still wants to write/make/be in a movie.

But hell, I know people far stranger than that. Take my girlfriend, for instance....:D

[synack]

If you call Su Kong under your own logic a "Tall Tale" you are also insulting GM Sin and Ie. The logic is just a way to discredit the messenger and not the message.

What does it matter what my opinion is of GM Sin? My opinions are formed by what I've read of his own statements thus far. If he changes that, then so be it. If he doesn't then he doesn't. I'll still like the art.

I don't see how this is a big deal at all. If they were standing together, I would bow to both of them. This can be put directly to government too... I can respect the Congress (I don't) and still not respect the President. Or even say that I respect and like the constitution and not our elected representatives for their own public statements. I'd still shake their hand if I met them but I don't have to like their policies or statements.

[Shaolin Wookie]

GM The's exact, word for word answer on Snake Training.

"Yes, I learned the Snake Form, which is the highest form in our art. The idea is that when you are attacked you do not block the blows with your hands or feet. You move and twist your body out of thw way, like a snake being attacked by an eagle. This leaves your hands and feet free free to counterattack. Master Ie would tie my hands and feet and throw me a lake or sometimes a river. I would have to swim by wriggling my body like a snake."

No mention of pec muscles at all. Swimming like this isn't easy, but probably any decent swimmer could do it in a short amount time.

On the sand burn story GM The' never said he melted a baby. He said his original teacher killed his own baby accidently. His exact words - referring to his teacher was: " .....And he picked it up...and he burned it with his hands...and it died."

My sister was a swimmer. Anyone here ever tried Butterfly stroke? The arms are only thrown for momentum. You have to coordinate the entire body and swim like a dolphin. I've never been abled to do it. I just throw my arms, and end up looking like a drowning victim. She friggin' flies.

Anyways, sweet vid posts, CW.

[Shaolin Wookie]

If you call Su Kong under your own logic a "Tall Tale" you are also insulting GM Sin and Ie. The logic is just a way to discredit the messenger and not the message.

What does it matter what my opinion is of GM Sin? My opinions are formed by what I've read of his own statements thus far. If he changes that, then so be it. If he doesn't then he doesn't. I'll still like the art.

I don't see how this is a big deal at all. If they were standing together, I would bow to both of them. This can be put directly to government too... I can respect the Congress (I don't) and still not respect the President. Or even say that I respect and like the constitution and not our elected representatives for their own public statements. I'd still shake their hand if I met them but I don't have to like their policies or statements.

Then what's your issue?

[synack]

I have no issue. Someone said I disrespected M Grooms and GM Sin. I was responding to the accusation. I was also pointing out why I had the opinion that I have of GM Sin. Because of his own words.


Shaolin Wookie - your next post is going to be evil (666)

[Shaolin Wookie]

but what you wear is generally an indicator of what you are taught.

So what is traditional garb? I've been to at least 10 CMA schools in Atlanta. Some wore silk pajamas. My longfist school was whatever you were wearing at the moment: my first day I was wearing my work uniform...hahaha....(so was I learning how to do my job (law enforcement admin.) at a CMA school?)hahaha......some wore track unifroms, one was wearing military fatigues, another wearing gi's (because they're tougher and stronger...note: it wasn't SD), one with sweatpants.......

hahaha.......and why do you think BJJ schools have no-gi classes?




Again..what's your point? I don't get it!!! You are not going to see Taoist/Buddhist monks being impolite to anyone.

Monks are pacifists.


Read American Shaolin by Matt Polly. They were impolite to many people, and they got in plenty of fights, sometimes over trivial stuff.

But generally, they were just nice guys who tried not to **** off the communist party members that oversaw the running of the temple. And they were verty touchy on the issue of Buddhism and Taoism, because they didn't practice it religiously (figuratively and literally).

BTW......before immense popluarity of the movie Shaolin Temple, there were only like two monks living at the temple, for the sake of upkeep. Apparently, they didn't really know much or any kung fu, and Shaolin Chan was pretty much gone.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Shaolin Wookie - your next post is going to be evil (666)

Hahaaha....sometimes when I go to McDonalds and get the #1 combo, large size, with a chocolate dipped ice cream cone--the total comes out to $6.66.

Coincidence, I think not.:D

As for the disrespect issue, I did the same thing awhile back. I didn't mean any disrespect, but I came across that way--as being disrespectful. I saw how that was true, afterwards.

So I understand.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I wasn't trying to disrespect anyone. I thought I had a legitimate question. If you feel I disrespected M Grooms or GMS by claiming to be under M Grooms instead, I'll apologize for that now. But it doesn't change how I view M Grooms and GMS's statements and it also doesn't nullify my questioning of GMS.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the school and the material. But I do think there is room for improvement on GMS's part especially on clarification of his lineage.

Personally, I tend to respect a more humble attitude. So telling stories about beating up 6 guys with poison knives and having a secret antidote

I've only heard this story in the Shaolin-Do book. Never heard it mentioned anywhere else. I sincerely doubt he tells this story everywhere he goes. I've never heard it in the two lengthy lectures I heard him give (one via video afterwards). I'm sure the makers of the book just really liked that story, plus, they were telling the story of GM Sin--and since, I dare say--his life probably wasn't as action packed as John McLane's, a little action and martial play in the story helps keep you interested, and shows you he can handle himself, and has some kind of handle on Chinese meds.

He seems like a humble guy to me. Just ltwo weeks ago, I was invited by one of my friends, Richie, from that Longfist school I used to go to. He has a cousin staying with him this month who was going to show him an Emei Snake routine , and he knew I really wanted to learn a little snake, so he invited me. I went, and sucked at it (wushu is really friggin' hard), and he's supposed to show us the rest today, if I can make it. I ordered the HElen Liang DVD of it off MartialArtsMart, so I could practice in between lessons. Anyways, we were talking all that evening while learning, and I was relating some of the movements to stuff I'd seen at CSC. They were familiar with the controversies, but were surprised I knew as much about the body mechanics, techniques, applications, etc., that go along with CMA. They started in on meditation and such, and I mentioned some stuff I'd learned about Hou Tien Chi at green sash in the internal division of CSC, and they were surprised I knew about some of that. They said they'd had to spend years in service of their teacher before he was willing to teach this or that technique, this or that meditation technique, or this or that form.

--oops...edit--not meditation, they're not into that.....just the breathing and chi stuff.....

GM The' is humble enough to teach it to those who are willing without demanding anything but hard work and dedication, and standard prices, where martial arts are concerned. As far as I see it, he's one of those humble teachers CMA students are always trying to find, and complain about not having.


and also claiming the GM of all of China's Shaolin temples seems very far fetched to me. It's just my opinion. I'd like clarification.

Happy to oblige. He's never claimed to be Grandmaster of all of China's Shaolin Temples. Neither did GGM Ie, nor did GGGM Su Kong. That's a misinterpretation taken by some outsiders, who read a couple of sensationalized statements, and figure we think we're a part of the Shaolin Temple govt in service today. He's the Grandmaster of the Shaolin-Do system, which draws from the martial knowledge of all the Shaolin temples. But GM SIn has no authority or ranking privelges at any of the Shaolin temples. He is not abbot, nor has he ever claimed to be. When he visited the Henan or Fujien temple, he was a tourist like anyone else. He wore street clothes, somtimes his gi (I've only seen pics), and his ubiquitous fanny pack:D (not poking fun, it's just he needs it 'cuz his gi doesn't have pockets) and probably had a camera, too. Su Kong was not an abbot, nor did he ever claim to be. Su Kong helped run the martial arts activities of the Southern Temple at Fujien as a secular monk (and there were plenty of those in the temples---criminals claiming assylum, and those deemed unfit for religious service [i.e.--not everyone's cut out for chastity, pacifism, and endless meditation---I certainly wouldn't be...hahaha....])


Ask him for clarification and we won't have to debate on a thread called "Is Shaolin-do for real" for 300 something pages.

peace,
synack

He probably doesn't care. He gave what information he had, and as far as I know, he's never changed the story. Some people don't like it, so they bicker. What can he offer that will end the bickering?

Nothing.

If he pulled off this little miracle and proved without a shadow of a doubt that Shaolin-Do was pure shaolin, people would still say: "But it still looks like karate, so it sucks." or "Why are you wearing gi's then?" or "Then why isn't Su Kong listed on the temple records?"

It's the same reason almost every lineage on this forum, and in the chinese martial arts world, is subject to debate.

[synack]

SWookie - Thank you for your response. I don't care about what we wear or don't (frog buttons or shoes) wear. When I read about GM Sin, I got the same impression that he was claiming to be the GM of all Shaolin arts/temples.

Maybe the wording is sensationalized or should be clarified.

As far as the six guys with poison knives is concerned. I read that on his site under his bio. I did a lot of research before joining SD (Tao). And yet I still joined. When I read that it made me roll my eyes and further question the man in charge of the school. If what you say is true, whomever does his writing (if not him). Needs to chill out a bit. Wild statements can bring you business but they can also deter business.

For now, I'm sticking around. I like everyone I've met in SD (even on this board). And yes, even the ones who called me disrespectful. Everyone has a right to their opinion.

Meditation... I practiced some meditation some number of years ago and am now recently back at it. I'm no pro and don't know most of the traditional aspects of it. But I can get to clear and calm state during my practice. The way it makes me feel has caused it to an almost mandatory daily practice.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Marketing is marketing. When you're a part of such a large system as ours, there is going to be lots of marketing, and everything looks bad in marketing unless there's a scantily clad chick in a thong spread out over whatever you're trying to sell.:D Since SD people don't go that route, sometimes there's some sensationalization. No big deal. Most people that come into ATlanta CSC's sometimes have sensationalized notions about kung fu and the system (ususally through movies, and are sometimes disheartened to learn that a properly executed butterfly kick/twist combo won't take out a legion of super-ninjas armed with machetes and samurai swords), and they're quickly stripped of their delusions and illusions.

As much as GM Sin is a legitimate martial artist, he is also a business man. His duty as a martial artist is to maintain the integrity of the system he teaches, to hone his personal skills, and to help teach others so the art survives. If you've ever looked at the schedule he keeps between Shaolin-Do and CSC schools, it seems like hte man basically lives on an airplane. He jets out constantly to teach forms seminars, and personally sees to every black belt given out through the system, both divisions. He is definately dedicated. The black belt stipulation is the most amazing part of his dedication.

He is also a businessman, and as such, has to market, keep people interested with the newest and deadliest technique and style, and represent the best martial art he knows......and what he knows is Shaolin-Do.

But sometimes guys like you or I see one part, and don't really see the other. He's a very busy guy, and I doubt he cares whether some teenagers and internet MA's think his system is bogus, or misrepresentative, or Indonesian Karate-fu.

[MasterKiller]

Happy to oblige. He's never claimed to be Grandmaster of all of China's Shaolin Temples. Neither did GGM Ie, nor did GGGM Su Kong. That's a misinterpretation taken by some outsiders, who read a couple of sensationalized statements, and figure we think we're a part of the Shaolin Temple govt in service today. He's the Grandmaster of the Shaolin-Do system, which draws from the martial knowledge of all the Shaolin temples. But GM SIn has no authority or ranking privelges at any of the Shaolin temples. He is not a