Is Shaolin-Do for real? [Archive] - Page 21

djcaldwell

06-06-2007, 07:38 PM

Actually CLF is part of SD from what I have heard. I understand that EML has most of the whole system taught to him by GMT.

From the brief stuff that I have seen and I don't know anything other than what I have seen with my own eyes - it does not have any attributes of CLF...sorry.

SD is more like any CMA and kung fu than most of you might realize.

Dude, figuratively speaking you are staning in a room of Chinese Martial Artists and saying tht it is more like CMA than they realize? It's like standing in the doctors office and arguing that your symptoms are more like some exotic disease when he's telling you that you have a simple cold.

You will never know until you are on the inside and on the receiving end of an @$$whipping.

This is customarily the last resort argument from one on the loosing end of it. Basically a WHATEVER...statement.

You all focus on the non intrinsic aspects , which really sucks for you. By the way I have material up to sixth , so it is probably taught around 7th or 8th, if it is true

Here is where I find amusement and what made me really post after lurking on this thread for a while. You argue it's validity and content and endorse the fact that it certainly has CMA or excuse me specifically "shaolin" attributes. I think you are mistaking techniques and what not that may have been "influenced" or poorly mimiced for actual integration of specific techniques and executions.

There is no argument from me that you can adopt a technique from another system and integrate it - big ups that's great. However, when techniques are integrated they are usually done the way they are from the other style or **** near close to it. Nothing I have seen looks or moves like CMA - it looks and moves like Karate / Kempo - I have 2 black belt Kemp stylists in my family - I know what that looks like.

Finally, the point I was getting at is you are professing the validity of these techniques and teachings but state that you have material up to the 6th but the "CMA Stuff" is introduced in the 7th or 8th - COME ON!!!

I'm not knocking the system - I don't know it and don't care about it but if your going to make statments like this and debate the point so adamently then at least have some 1st hand knowledge of what you are saying. Basically you just said = It's there! I haven't seen it yet myself... but I'm telling you it's there.

tattooedmonk

06-06-2007, 07:43 PM

Wow... and you believe that...

Tell you what... why not do two things...

1) Ask where the 5 Animal form comes from at your 4th to 5th degree.
2) Go watch a CLF class with Ng Fu Han or other CLF players in LA & come back & tell us honestly where you see CLF anywhere in SD.I have and it does.

sean_stonehart

06-06-2007, 07:58 PM

I have and it does.

Ok... then please describe the different gings from CLF you see in SD by technique & expression.

This should be simple if your beliefs are correct.

tattooedmonk

06-06-2007, 08:00 PM

From the brief stuff that I have seen and I don't know anything other than what I have seen with my own eyes - it does not have any attributes of CLF...sorry.

Dude, figuratively speaking you are staning in a room of Chinese Martial Artists and saying tht it is more like CMA than they realize? It's like standing in the doctors office and arguing that your symptoms are more like some exotic disease when he's telling you that you have a simple cold.

This is customarily the last resort argument from one on the loosing end of it. Basically a WHATEVER...statement.

Here is where I find amusement and what made me really post after lurking on this thread for a while. You argue it's validity and content and endorse the fact that it certainly has CMA or excuse me specifically "shaolin" attributes. I think you are mistaking techniques and what not that may have been "influenced" or poorly mimiced for actual integration of specific techniques and executions.

There is no argument from me that you can adopt a technique from another system and integrate it - big ups that's great. However, when techniques are integrated they are usually done the way they are from the other style or **** near close to it. Nothing I have seen looks or moves like CMA - it looks and moves like Karate / Kempo - I have 2 black belt Kemp stylists in my family - I know what that looks like.

Finally, the point I was getting at is you are professing the validity of these techniques and teachings but state that you have material up to the 6th but the "CMA Stuff" is introduced in the 7th or 8th - COME ON!!!

I'm not knocking the system - I don't know it and don't care about it but if your going to make statments like this and debate the point so adamently then at least have some 1st hand knowledge of what you are saying. Basically you just said = It's there! I haven't seen it yet myself... but I'm telling you it's there. 1. If you have not seen much and do not know anything about it, then you might as well have seen nothing and obviously know nothing about which you are talking about....sorry.

2. I am standing in a room with a bunch of people that think they know what CMA is . So, in that case I am standing in a room with a bunch of quack doctors.

3. And what is Kenpo / kempo anyway?

4. As for the @$$ whipping part ,I am refering to the same techniques that are in the same forms taught in SD and other CMA /Kung Fu Schools , and how they are applied.

5. Last but not least I did not say that CMA was taught at 7th or 8th I said that CLF was. Learn how to read and comprehend.

Save your lecture for someone that does not know what you are talking about , then you might find someone who will think that what you have to say has any merit!:D

MasterKiller

06-06-2007, 08:21 PM

DJ,
It's like trying to discuss Scientology with Tom Cruise...

tattooedmonk

06-06-2007, 08:23 PM

Ok... then please describe the different gings from CLF you see in SD by technique & expression.

This should be simple if your beliefs are correct.These are the ones I know.

Peng Jing (Pushing Power)
Peng is the very basic "power". It is the ability to transmit power, strength, energy, etc, thru an "extremity" (one of the 7 stars : head, shoulders, elbows, hands, hips, knees, feet).

Ding Jing (Listening Power)
Peng is considered also as the audible energy because it is through peng that one can listen to the opponent's body. As the student develops the core peng strength, work is begun on building a good connection and communication between student and opponent. Through the aid of practice to increase sensitivity, the student can precisely detect the opponent's power, center of gravity, direction, pressure, etc., as if actually hearing the vibrations. Understanding Power (Dong Jing) motivation, one can continue developing and advancing listening ability to the stage of under standing power. In other words, the mind becomes able to analyze and measure the pressure, direction character, speed, force, etc., of the opponent's movements in order to be able to cope with them properly. In most chinese martial arts this Power is trained thru Tuishou (pushing-hand) drills (f.e. called Chi sao inwingchun).

Zang Lian Jing (Sticking Power)
Through Rolling Hands Practice, Pushing Hands Practice, and practice in reversing the transfer of power process, the student develops the sensitivity and controlling ability known as sticking power. In other words, the student should be able to stick with an opponent in order to control him, attack, or defeat his attack. Usually with the initial contact between two people in a free-style fighting situation, the student can use peng to sense the opponent's hand (with advanced students the sensitivity will encompass the entire body) and there is an almost magnetic feeling. That is, the opponent feels as if he were stuck to the student almost like chewing gum can stick to the body. The special application of sticking power is the slowing of an opponent's speed and also the redirection of any kind of energy emitted by the opponent (a straight push get deflected without any apparent reason. This Power is also involved in the "unpushable man" trick).

Zuo Jing (Following Power)
By combining all of the previously described types of power, one can advance one's ability further and develop following power. This type of power allows the student to follow the direction of the opponent in all situations and respond accordingly.

Hua Jing (Neutralizing Power)
With neutralizing power the student is able to guide their following power in a yielding manner, in order to counterbalance or make ineffective the attacking and defending ability of an opponent.

Ce Jing (Borrowing Power)
Through borrowing power, the student is able to utilize an opponent's power by adapting it to purposes that are beneficial to the student's own designs. When an opponent attacks with, say, ten pounds of force, the student not only neutralizes (yields) but also borrows that force into his foot and reflects it back to the opponent, often at such an angle that the opponent is tossed away by largely his own power. In Luohan Quan this power is used at "An Jing" level for every move that appear as a block at "Ming Jing" level.

Ying Jing (Drawing-up Power)
Should an opponent refuse to transfer power, the student is in the situation of having no power to borrow from. In such a situation it is up to the student to cause the attacker to yield his power so that it can be utilized for reflection back to the opponent. This process is known as drawing-up power from an opponent. A lot of this may just be psychology and reflex.

Di Jing (Uprooting Power)
The ability to cause an opponent to bounce backward and upward, thereby making him lose his root to the ground, is known as uprooting power. When used in a more moderate fashion, i.e., by keeping peng in an upward direction to the opponent's center, this power will cause him to float. In Luohan Quan this power is used to prepare counterattacks and throws, usually combining the power of the arms with the power of the stance / hips.

Chen Jing (Sinking Power)
By reversing the practice of uprooting power the student is able to develop the ability to sink using it against an attempt to uproot him. Success in sinking power development can cause one's opponent to feel that it is impossible to uproot the student. The relaxed, connected body is the source of this.

Na Jing (Controlling Power)
Controlling power is applied during Rolling Hands practice or Free Hand practice. The student will try different methods to take over control of the situation and eventually lock the opponent into a position which will defeat him. The constant and skillful use of peng and connection are what power this skill. In Luohan Quan we all call this power the "trapping power" as it allows to lead the opponent in a way / posture that is uncomfortable and unstable.

Kai Jing (Open-up Power)
This is the application of internal power in such a manner as to cause an opponent who has maintained a defensive position for an extended period of time to open up his defenses and thus be defeated. Psychology and reflex in relation to the opponent are vital for this.

He Jing (Close-up Power)
In this case the student directs his internal power inward in such a manner as to cause an opponent to react by closing-up toward his center as a means of defense. In the process of closing-up, it is possible to trap the opponent because he is so drawn in toward his balance point that there is no way that he can move outward; thus the student is able to control the situation and defeat him. This is the perfect power to use against a bully opponent, attracting him to a "unprotected" area and then let him crash against a hard part of your body (knee, elbow, shoulder, ...)

Po Jing (Deflecting Power)
This is a specialized development of internal power. In applying deflecting power the practitioner is able to bounce an attacker to the side, or divert his force, to bring the student out of danger. Here the skill of controlling not only your own peng but the opponent's force vector (whether he uses peng or not) is critical.

Zhou Jing (Rubbing Power)
This transfer of power is achieved through a rubbing motion of the hands or other parts of the body. The motion used is similar to that of rubbing clay between the palms to form a long rope or coil. Often, qinna are applied with this for attacking opponent's muscles.

Fa Jing (Exploding Power)
This transfer of power is achieved through a burst of energy, releasing power suddendly and "overloading" the opponent. At "ming jing" level, this power is used for every "attacking" moves of Luohan Quan.

Ce Jing (Twisting Power)
When applying internal power in this manner, the student twists an opponent in an action similar to that of wringing out a wash cloth. This type of power is used to lock an opponent into a position where he can be easily defeated or just keep it secured. The internal version of this well known move different in that it relies on physical law rather than muscle power.

Zhuan Jing (Spiral Power)
Because of this screwing motion, this type of power transfer is sometimes referred to as screwing power. It is the base of Chan si Jing (silk reiling power)Mainly use in Baguazhang this power is used in every turning move of Luohan Quan, transforming a possibly weak posture into an even more powerful motion. Of course a good grounding and lower body strength is required.

Ci Jing (Cutting Power) or Heng Jing (Crossing Power)
This type of power transfer, is a clean, sharp cutting type of motion which is applied to an opponent from the side in order to disable or interrupt an attack. Used with Zhuan Jing this can produce extremely powerful moves which can inflict heavy damages.

Duan Jing (Interrupting Power)
Interrupting power usually refers to the skill of "leaving the jing in the opponent.... mainly so no return which borrows" your power can be used. This skill is very hard to train and requires a very trained mind.

Cun Jing (Inch Power)
Sometimes called short-power.... the ability to release great power with very little motion. The most famous martial artist using this power is of course Bruce Lee (the famous one inch punch), to achieve the maximum power, Zhuan Jing, Fa Jing and Ying Jing are required.

Zuo Te Jing (Folding Power)
Folding power usually implies the skill of folding the body and hitting with the closest body part, using fa jing. For instance, if an opponent holds your wrist, hit him with Elbow using fa jing or cun jing; if he holds your elbow, hit him with shoulder (Kao) or hip, etc.

tattooedmonk

06-06-2007, 08:26 PM

DJ,
It's like trying to discuss Scientology with Tom Cruise... So , once again you avoid my questions. What do you know of SD?? Do you have a ranking above black belt in the system ???Do you attend classes regularly?? Have you attended any advanced black belt seminars??If not how do you know what you are talking about??

djcaldwell

06-06-2007, 08:27 PM

DJ,
It's like trying to discuss Scientology with Tom Cruise...

LOL!

I wonder if they have the "special chair" in the back room.

sean_stonehart

06-06-2007, 08:28 PM

These are the ones I know.

jings

....snipped...

That's a great cut & paste for taiji jings, but that's not what I asked about. I asked about the CLF gings.

How about a simpler question... which of the CLF bagua hand sets taught in SD since SD encompasses CLF??

Also could you give me a heads up on noi lim sao? I'm trying to make it work & it's just not there yet...

sean_stonehart

06-06-2007, 08:33 PM

I have and it does.

You have what??

It does what??

These answers are a little vague.

djcaldwell

06-06-2007, 08:45 PM

Defensive Much?

1. If you have not seen much and do not know anything about it, then you might as well have seen nothing and obviously know nothing about which you are talking about....sorry.

I've been a CMA stylist for 18 years - I know when I see it.

4. As for the @$$ whipping part ,I am refering to the same techniques that are in the same forms taught in SD and other CMA /Kung Fu Schools , and how they are applied.

Oh so you mean that you punch and kick - so does my 3 year old and with about the same technique that I've seen from SD. There are similar techniques in Karate but you don't see them saying it's CMA because IT'S NOT. Boxers jab and cross - Thai throws round houses, front kicks but they don't call it CMA and SD does something but they call it CMA - go figure - don't be a poser - be proud of who you are!

5. Last but not least I did not say that CMA was taught at 7th or 8th I said that CLF was. Learn how to read and comprehend.

You debate about as good as the BFP guys. With as comprehensive as system as CLF is - and the techniques contained within - for a system that claims to be the most complete (per their website) why would CLF not be introduced until so late.

Obviously the voltage was pretty high in the SD Brainwave Chair. You're not going to ever understand what anyone here has to say as you have this vision of what it is you are or have learned and I understand it's difficult to come to the realization that all your years of "shaolin" training is...well...not.

How about a simpler question... which of the CLF bagua hand sets taught in SD since SD encompasses CLF??

He can't do this because he's only at 6th CLF isn't introduced until the 7th ask him again next year when this thread reaches 1000 pages.

Lamassu

06-06-2007, 08:46 PM

You have what??

It does what??

These answers are a little vague.

I'm confused, what's this latest pi$$ing contest about again? :confused:

sean_stonehart

06-06-2007, 09:04 PM

I'm confused, what's this latest pi$$ing contest about again? :confused:

I've actually not wet my pants or anybody else's...

I'm just asking questions. Simple ones really.

tattooedmonk

06-06-2007, 09:05 PM

Defensive Much?

I've been a CMA stylist for 18 years - I know when I see it.

Oh so you mean that you punch and kick - so does my 3 year old and with about the same technique that I've seen from SD. There are similar techniques in Karate but you don't see them saying it's CMA because IT'S NOT. Boxers jab and cross - Thai throws round houses, front kicks but they don't call it CMA and SD does something but they call it CMA - go figure - don't be a poser - be proud of who you are!

You debate about as good as the BFP guys. With as comprehensive as system as CLF is - and the techniques contained within - for a system that claims to be the most complete (per their website) why would CLF not be introduced until so late.

Obviously the voltage was pretty high in the SD Brainwave Chair. You're not going to ever understand what anyone here has to say as you have this vision of what it is you are or have learned and I understand it's difficult to come to the realization that all your years of "shaolin" training is...well...not.

He can't do this because he's only at 6th CLF isn't introduced until the 7th ask him again next year when this thread reaches 1000 pages.1. So what have you seen of SD that makes you come to these conclusions??
2. Not just punches and kicks . the stances ,the movements, the distributions of weight , energy, etc.
3. Because at that level you get complete systems to master. CLF is Just one available system to master.

So what is your definintion of CMA then??

And for your petty little insults...whatever.

By the way I did not say I was sixth, I said I have learned all the material up to sixth. What is wrong wth your reading and comprehension skills??

Judge Pen

06-06-2007, 09:07 PM

Actually CLF is part of SD from what I have heard. I understand that EML has most of the whole system taught to him by GMT. SD is more like any CMA and kung fu than most of you might realize. You will never know until you are on the inside and on the receiving end of an @$$whipping. You all focus on the non intrinsic aspects , which really sucks for you. By the way I have material up to sixth , so it is probably taught around 7th or 8th, if it is true

I have never heard that. I think that Sean has a bit of perspective on both SD and CLF, so I'll leave that topic to those that know more than me.

tattooedmonk

06-06-2007, 09:09 PM

That's a great cut & paste for taiji jings, but that's not what I asked about. I asked about the CLF gings.

How about a simpler question... which of the CLF bagua hand sets taught in SD since SD encompasses CLF??

Also could you give me a heads up on noi lim sao? I'm trying to make it work & it's just not there yet... What are the names of these GINGS? I might know them under different names for emitting energy than you do but the actions and the energies are the same, if not similar??

tattooedmonk

06-06-2007, 09:12 PM

I have never heard that. I think that Sean has a bit of perspective on both SD and CLF, so I'll leave that topic to those that know more than me.
Like I said it is just what I heard. I do not know if it is true or not, because at that level the material is taught in secret and is not advertised. But I have some reliable sources.;)

And he( sean) said that he knew nothing about SD except for that which he had seen , which as he admitted, was very little.

tattooedmonk

06-06-2007, 09:18 PM

I'm confused, what's this latest pi$$ing contest about again? :confused: Well it seems that some CLF guys, after their extensive study into SD, **rolls eyes** have come to the conclusion that it is not CMA and doe not have any similarities to CLF. Same $h!t as usual.

sean_stonehart

06-06-2007, 09:25 PM

What are the names of these GINGS? I might know them under different names for emitting energy than you do but the actions and the energies are the same, if not similar??

You know them or you don't. I'm not here to educate you on something you don't know. Based on the cut & paste job from the taiji jings, that speaks volumes on its own.

You still haven't answered me on the 5 Animal set, Bagua sets or noi lim sao. When you reached 5th, did you get special classes question aversion?

tattooedmonk

06-06-2007, 09:27 PM

After studying SD for over 15 years, studying CLF under Doc Fei Wong for the last 6 months, as well as many other reputable CMA masters I have come to the conclusion that yes SD is real Shaolin , although it has been modified and adapted for modern day usage. I admit that it has less of a "Chinese" feel to it than other syles I have done, but I would say that a few of the reasons for this are because of the large body of material that is taught and the amount of time that you have to learn it in , as well as the Indonesia importation factor.

sean_stonehart

06-06-2007, 09:27 PM

Like I said it is just what I heard. I do not know if it is true or not, because at that level the material is taught in secret and is not advertised. But I have some reliable sources.;)

Heresay... right. Reliable sources.

Could your reliable sources tell you if the 5 Body Shape sets of CLF is taught in SD?

And he( sean) said that he knew nothing about SD except for that which he had seen , which as he admitted, was very little.

Guess you missed lessons in humility too. I earned my 2nd degree in SD before I left.

sean_stonehart

06-06-2007, 09:31 PM

sean_stonehart

06-06-2007, 09:32 PM

Well it seems that some CLF guys, after their extensive study into SD, **rolls eyes** have come to the conclusion that it is not CMA and doe not have any similarities to CLF. Same $h!t as usual.

Right except some of us do have SD training & more insight on things than you know.

tattooedmonk

06-06-2007, 09:33 PM

You know them or you don't. I'm not here to educate you on something you don't know. Based on the cut & paste job from the taiji jings, that speaks volumes on its own.

You still haven't answered me on the 5 Animal set, Bagua sets or noi lim sao. When you reached 5th, did you get special classes question aversion? I cut them from my blog. What about the five animal set?? what about the bagua sets?

tattooedmonk

06-06-2007, 09:39 PM

Heresay... right. Reliable sources.

Could your reliable sources tell you if the 5 Body Shape sets of CLF is taught in SD?

Guess you missed lessons in humility too. I earned my 2nd degree in SD before I left. Yes, it is heresay and I said that from the beginning, I am sure if they had that type of information they could tell me. My source is reliable.

Earned or bought your second degree??

As for humility , it does not sound like you have much there yourself. I have plenty , maybe not as much as I should have but there is still time I am still young. ,but that is what gives me the edge. Maybe you can teach me some, ehh??

sean_stonehart

06-06-2007, 09:43 PM

I cut them from my blog. What about the five animal set?? what about the bagua sets?

You haven't answered my questions that I asked earlier.

Let me repost them...

Ask where the 5 Animal form comes from at your 4th to 5th degree.

and

How about a simpler question... which of the CLF bagua hand sets taught in SD since SD encompasses CLF??

I still have no answer for them.

sean_stonehart

06-06-2007, 09:46 PM

Yes, it is heresay and I said that from the beginning, I am sure if they had that type of information they could tell me. My source is reliable.

Cool... so it shouldn't be that hard to ask them since you stated without doubt that CLF is taught as a subset of SD.

Earned or bought your second degree??

I dunno... paid for the test, took the test, got the belt & same certificate as you have. Ask yourself the same question.

As for humility , it does not sound like you have much there yourself. I have plenty , maybe not as much as I should have but there is still time I am still young. ,but that is what gives me the edge. Maybe you can teach me some, ehh??

Nah I doubt it... you're not in any mental frame to learn right now. Maybe in a year or two, but right now, you can't learn.

cjurakpt

06-06-2007, 09:53 PM

ok, I'll bite - are there any links to any of the SD forms out there just for the sake of curiosity?

sean_stonehart

06-06-2007, 09:54 PM

ok, I'll bite - are there any links to any of the SD forms out there just for the sake of curiosity?

There was at least at one time on the Denver site.

www.shao-lin.com and look for some festival.

Judge Pen

06-06-2007, 10:02 PM

Like I said it is just what I heard. I do not know if it is true or not, because at that level the material is taught in secret and is not advertised. But I have some reliable sources.;)

And he( sean) said that he knew nothing about SD except for that which he had seen , which as he admitted, was very little.

You mis-read that. I know him. He's had quite the bit of training in SD and CLF. I don't always agree with his opinions on SD now, but I can't argue with him on CLF. Aside from our 5 animal form, nothing in SD reminds me of CLF aside from the random technique here and there. I would be curious to compare our butterfly knife set to theirs.

MasterKiller

06-06-2007, 10:07 PM

There was at least at one time on the Denver site.

www.shao-lin.com and look for some festival.

http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=13

Pay particular attention to the "Shao-Lin Grandmaster" video.

cjurakpt

06-06-2007, 10:12 PM

There was at least at one time on the Denver site.

www.shao-lin.com and look for some festival.

sigh...I wish I hadn't looked;

it would have been fun to see what would have happened if they had shown up and competed at something like NACMAF or Jeff Bolt's tournaments (I assume that they don't participate in any of the current TCMA tourneys either)

cjurakpt

06-06-2007, 10:17 PM

http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=13

Pay particular attention to the "Shao-Lin Grandmaster" video.

that's the famous Epileptic Crane, if I am not mistaken...

MasterKiller

06-06-2007, 10:27 PM

sigh...I wish I hadn't looked;

it would have been fun to see what would have happened if they had shown up and competed at something like NACMAF or Jeff Bolt's tournaments (I assume that they don't participate in any of the current TCMA tourneys either)

Of course not. Haven't you seen their mission statement?

"If your primary interest is tournament skills, I advise you to seek your training elsewhere! Most of what you will learn here is too lethal for tournament use. I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.' As did the immortals, we should learn to destroy so that we may preserve! It is a way of truth. The knowledge that I offer you is not an athletic training; it is a sacred trust." --Shaolin Grandmaster Sin Kwang The'

The Annual Sin The' Karate Tournament®™ point-sparring matches must be like X-mas for the local morgue.

djcaldwell

06-06-2007, 10:49 PM

... at that level the material is taught in secret and is not advertised. But I have some reliable sources.;)

As I'm sure many will agree - the "secret" is that there is not real secret. Anyone who tells you they are going to teach you "secrets" is nonsense.

Judge Pen

06-06-2007, 11:11 PM

sigh...I wish I hadn't looked;

it would have been fun to see what would have happened if they had shown up and competed at something like NACMAF or Jeff Bolt's tournaments (I assume that they don't participate in any of the current TCMA tourneys either)

I have. Some schools do. There is a difference from school to school in the quality of instruction. Not saying that I'm that good (never pretended to be) but I will put myself out there from time to time.

Judge Pen

06-06-2007, 11:12 PM

As I'm sure many will agree - the "secret" is that there is not real secret. Anyone who tells you they are going to teach you "secrets" is nonsense.

I agree. There are things that aren't taught until a certain amount of time and effort have been put in and students shouldn't go around bragging about what they are being taught as opposed to someone else.

tattooedmonk

06-06-2007, 11:30 PM

As I'm sure many will agree - the "secret" is that there is not real secret. Anyone who tells you they are going to teach you "secrets" is nonsense. I agree , but that is not what I wrote. READ IT AGAIN.

tattooedmonk

06-06-2007, 11:33 PM

That's a great cut & paste for taiji jings, but that's not what I asked about. I asked about the CLF gings.

How about a simpler question... which of the CLF bagua hand sets taught in SD since SD encompasses CLF??

Also could you give me a heads up on noi lim sao? I'm trying to make it work & it's just not there yet... You are refering to the second stage of training( noi lim sau) the internal hands I believe? I am not there in CLF but I have learned it in Ba gua and other arts.

sean_stonehart

06-06-2007, 11:35 PM

You are refering to the second stage of training( noi lim sau) the internal hands I believe? I am not there in CLF but I have learned it in Ba gua and other arts.

Nice try from www.clfsd.com/kung.html ...

No I was wanting to hear about the way SD teaches noi lim sao in their CLF curriculum since according to you via reliable heresay they have the complete system to teach out.

Lamassu

06-06-2007, 11:38 PM

that's the famous Epileptic Crane, if I am not mistaken...

You're mistaken. It's 'Tung Lung Chuen'. :)

tattooedmonk

06-06-2007, 11:39 PM

that's the famous Epileptic Crane, if I am not mistaken... Funny, It is actually a form Known as Tang Lang Chien or Chuan . I was told that it was a form that was created my GMT when he was young based on the things he was taught about mantis early on. Each of the strikes that he is doing in the form are to specific pressure points and not some epileptic fit or flailing. I have not seen it ( the form)done in any other system, however I have seen many of the techniques done in other mantis forms.

tattooedmonk

06-06-2007, 11:43 PM

Nice try from www.clfsd.com/kung.html ...

No I was wanting to hear about the way SD teaches noi lim sao in their CLF curriculum since according to you via reliable heresay they have the complete system to teach out.No ,I was looking in my notes. Whatever link that is , it did not work. And how would I know if the forms from CLF have only been taught to the elder masters??

Lamassu

06-06-2007, 11:45 PM

Of course not. Haven't you seen their mission statement?

"If your primary interest is tournament skills, I advise you to seek your training elsewhere! Most of what you will learn here is too lethal for tournament use. I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.' As did the immortals, we should learn to destroy so that we may preserve! It is a way of truth. The knowledge that I offer you is not an athletic training; it is a sacred trust." --Shaolin Grandmaster Sin Kwang The'

The Annual Sin The' Karate Tournament®™ point-sparring matches must be like X-mas for the local morgue.

Boy this current pi$$ing contest is fun! :) This mission statement inticed me because when I joined, I wasn't interested in tournaments, I was interested in defending myself. Whether or not you subcribe to the history or if it's 'real' Shaolin is irrelevent to me. What matters to me is that I'll be able to defend myself in a real fight, and I have. So I'm satisfied with what I learned.

Keep on pi$$ing and moaning my friends! :D

sean_stonehart

06-06-2007, 11:53 PM

tattooedmonk

06-07-2007, 12:07 AM

The only reference to Noi Lim Sao on the net referred to as "2nd Level" is on his site. Site link fix... http://www.clfsd.com/kungfu.html

As far as knowing that... you're the one that provided the ground that you have a "reliable source" that apparently provided you with that info.

So ...
- you've been told wrong & won't admit it,
- caught in a sticky position & don't know how to get out of it with face,
- blind follower waiting for the UFO to come back with a cup of koolaide in your hand

Also you've shown outright contempt for GM Wong by calling him by his full name, and getting the name wrong as well, after you say you've been studying with him for 6 months.

So where do you want to go now? If I am wrong then I am wrong , but I have no reason to doubt this person nor will I . I will find out if it is true or not and will admit that I am wrong if it is untrue. Until then I will continue to take this person's word for it.

Do not make assumptions about me , you do not know me, nor do you want to know me.

As for contemt for GM Wong( Doc Fai Wong) give me a break.

By the way , cool site.

djcaldwell

06-07-2007, 12:56 AM

I agree , but that is not what I wrote. READ IT AGAIN.

Uhm...I do have a college degree I am able to comprehend what you wrote. Which stated that the "CLF" as you specifically noted is only taught at 7th and 8th levels and is done in "secret" are there many more ways that I can read that.

To which my response remains anything that needs to be conveyed in "secret" is crap. Especially when you're referring to a system that is widely known as CLF. It's not like you're learning to throw out chi blasts...or...are you?!!

djcaldwell

06-07-2007, 01:23 AM

that's the famous Epileptic Crane, if I am not mistaken...

LOL...you're hysterical.

djcaldwell

06-07-2007, 01:36 AM

There was at least at one time on the Denver site.

www.shao-lin.com and look for some festival.

WOW...

Double Daggers - so as long as I hold two daggers at the same time and do absolutely nothing with them I too can have a shaolin double dagger form. Why the heck have I been trying to work them in both hands for all these years?

I do concede that is a 5 animal form. Perhaps it's not the traditional but - squirrels, bunnies, pigeons, kittens and salmon are animals none the less.

Drunken Style - oh I thought that was part of the 5 animals....let's not touch the spear vs. sword or I mean sword hacking at spear.

Shaolin all the way dude!

tattooedmonk

06-07-2007, 01:43 AM

Uhm...I do have a college degree I am able to comprehend what you wrote. Which stated that the "CLF" as you specifically noted is only taught at 7th and 8th levels and is done in "secret" are there many more ways that I can read that.

To which my response remains anything that needs to be conveyed in "secret" is crap. Especially when you're referring to a system that is widely known as CLF. It's not like you're learning to throw out chi blasts...or...are you?!! Haha,

Originally Posted by tattooedmonk
... at that level the material is taught in secret and is not advertised.( post 5021)

Obviously your college education did not help you with this one.

You have been misreading and responding to most of what I have said , talk about defensive much!

djcaldwell

06-07-2007, 02:32 AM

Haha,

Originally Posted by tattooedmonk
... at that level the material is taught in secret and is not advertised.( post 5021)

Obviously your college education did not help you with this one.

You have been misreading and responding to most of what I have said , talk about defensive much!

Are you a complete twit? Nevermind - you answered that time and time again.

I GOT IT..."THAT LEVEL"..."MATERIAL TAUGHT IN SECRET"...EQUALS...B.S.

Maybe you should read your own writing or perhaps learn to convey what you mean. But obviously you don't KNOW what you mean to convey so therefore you convey nonsense.

If you enjoy your training then by all means continue - be it shaolin or not - that's another story but as long as you enjoy disillusion then that's great - go for it.

I'm out...at least 'till later.

kwaichang

06-07-2007, 03:09 AM

Your out alright out of your mind KC

cjurakpt

06-07-2007, 03:33 AM

let's not touch the spear vs. sword
yes, I'd like to comment on that -

this "set" showed a total lack of any comprehension of how either weapon is supposed to be used; it lacked all but the most basic types of exchanges, and even those were poorly organized; the way the set was structured was that one person purely attacked and the other only defended for a number of moves, and then it reversed - this is the antithesis of how every other 2-person TCMA weapon set I've seen or learned works (I've seen one or two in my time); additionally, neither weapon was used properly in terms of the ranges and how each one handles the other when in their range of strength (e.g. - what do you do with a broadsword against a spear at long range to get into short range, and what does the spear player then do when fighting at short range)

I say nothing per se about the "skill" of the performers (which was pretty low), because some will no doubt say some schools and practitioners are beter than others, etc.; fine - I am talking about the content of the form purely on a technical level

some will argue against this based on the fact that I am not a high ranking SD blackbelt, that I am missing the "inner essence" of the forms, etc.

it's very simple: you can try to deflect the reality with all sort sorts of qualifiers, attacking the poster, etc.; bottom line is that, if you don't get why that set was totally lame, then you are beyond my personal powers of persuasion; I also can recommend another weapon set that you would no doubt find to be of very high level...
http://www.tigerkungfu.com/videos/Emei.html

djcaldwell

06-07-2007, 04:04 AM

yes, I'd like to comment on that -

it's very simple: you can try to deflect the reality with all sort sorts of qualifiers, attacking the poster, etc.; bottom line is that, if you don't get why that set was totally lame, then you are beyond my personal powers of persuasion; I also can recommend another weapon set that you would no doubt find to be of very high level...
http://www.tigerkungfu.com/videos/Emei.html

ROTFLMAO...

kwaichang

06-07-2007, 04:40 AM

You guys think that is a good sword form ??? No accounting for lack of judgement KC

MasterKiller

06-07-2007, 04:44 AM

He was being sarcastic, KC. Doo Wai gets punked about as much as Sin The' online.

djcaldwell

06-07-2007, 04:57 AM

This is a quality performance. Sorry if someone already found it but I didn't go back through all 300+ pages of this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnpaW5hXWDg

cjurakpt

06-07-2007, 05:21 AM

He was being sarcastic, KC. Doo Wai gets punked about as much as Sin The' online.

we HAVE to get those two together...

sean_stonehart

06-07-2007, 05:49 AM

If I am wrong then I am wrong , but I have no reason to doubt this person nor will I . I will find out if it is true or not and will admit that I am wrong if it is untrue. Until then I will continue to take this person's word for it.

Of course there's no reason. They're receiving the same inaccurate information but since you won't remove the blinders, they are obviously correct.

Do not make assumptions about me , you do not know me, nor do you want to know me.

Is that some kind of veiled attempt at intimidation?

As for contemt for GM Wong( Doc Fai Wong) give me a break.

That right there speaks volume about you.

By the way , cool site.

I'm sure they think so. It's layout & presentation is professional & clean. No doubts there.

sean_stonehart

06-07-2007, 05:52 AM

WOW...

Yeah that's one response.

Double Daggers - so as long as I hold two daggers at the same time and do absolutely nothing with them I too can have a shaolin double dagger form. Why the heck have I been trying to work them in both hands for all these years?

Yeah pretty much

I do concede that is a 5 animal form. Perhaps it's not the traditional but - squirrels, bunnies, pigeons, kittens and salmon are animals none the less.

Ouch

Drunken Style - oh I thought that was part of the 5 animals....let's not touch the spear vs. sword or I mean sword hacking at spear.

.....:eek:

cjurakpt

06-07-2007, 06:10 AM

Funny, It is actually a form Known as Tang Lang Chien or Chuan . I was told that it was a form that was created my GMT when he was young based on the things he was taught about mantis early on. Each of the strikes that he is doing in the form are to specific pressure points and not some epileptic fit or flailing. I have not seen it ( the form)done in any other system, however I have seen many of the techniques done in other mantis forms.

it looks nothing like classical mantis, neither northern nor southern; if it is mantis, it's about the strangest conceptualization of it I've ever seen; I don't know what techniques from the clip in question are similar in any way to any established mantis style: so maybe we can post it over in the mantis forum and see what people who do mantis regularly have to say over there...

also, here's a poser: how exactly do you train strikes to "specific pressure points" by doing forms in the air? what are you aiming at? ever try to hit a pressure point on a moving, resisting opponent? also, aren't pressure points going to be located differently from one person to another (ever heard of anatomical variation?), and also won't they be spaced differently from each other depending on the person's size?

djcaldwell

06-07-2007, 06:26 AM

also, here's a poser: how exactly do you train strikes to "specific pressure points" by doing forms in the air? what are you aiming at? aren't pressure points going to be located differently from one person to another (ever heard of anatomical variation?), and also won't they be spaced differently from each other depending on the person's size?

I've always been spot on in my pressure point attacks - the wind doesn't dare blow uninvited in my backyard anymore.

Come on...we're talking about a group that swing spears wildly overhead at a single opponent that is maybe 2 feet away from them. They have to grasp spatial differntials before they can even begin to wrap their brain around anatomical variations.

tattooedmonk

06-07-2007, 06:35 AM

yes, I'd like to comment on that -

this "set" showed a total lack of any comprehension of how either weapon is supposed to be used; it lacked all but the most basic types of exchanges, and even those were poorly organized; the way the set was structured was that one person purely attacked and the other only defended for a number of moves, and then it reversed - this is the antithesis of how every other 2-person TCMA weapon set I've seen or learned works (I've seen one or two in my time); additionally, neither weapon was used properly in terms of the ranges and how each one handles the other when in their range of strength (e.g. - what do you do with a broadsword against a spear at long range to get into short range, and what does the spear player then do when fighting at short range)

I say nothing per se about the "skill" of the performers (which was pretty low), because some will no doubt say some schools and practitioners are beter than others, etc.; fine - I am talking about the content of the form purely on a technical level

some will argue against this based on the fact that I am not a high ranking SD blackbelt, that I am missing the "inner essence" of the forms, etc.

it's very simple: you can try to deflect the reality with all sort sorts of qualifiers, attacking the poster, etc.; bottom line is that, if you don't get why that set was totally lame, then you are beyond my personal powers of persuasion; I also can recommend another weapon set that you would no doubt find to be of very high level...
http://www.tigerkungfu.com/videos/Emei.htmlHey, I even admit that those videos on the CSC web site suck . I did in the past and I do now.

They are not the best representatives of the art.

I know all those forms and most of them are quite unrecognizable. Makes me sick. The forms themselves are purely CMA but it is hard to tell with the hacks butchering them.

And that tiger claw video ......PURE $H!T

tattooedmonk

06-07-2007, 06:38 AM

This is a quality performance. Sorry if someone already found it but I didn't go back through all 300+ pages of this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnpaW5hXWDgPURE $H!T!!!!

tattooedmonk

06-07-2007, 06:43 AM

it looks nothing like classical mantis, neither northern nor southern; if it is mantis, it's about the strangest conceptualization of it I've ever seen; I don't know what techniques from the clip in question are similar in any way to any established mantis style: so maybe we can post it over in the mantis forum and see what people who do mantis regularly have to say over there...

also, here's a poser: how exactly do you train strikes to "specific pressure points" by doing forms in the air? what are you aiming at? ever try to hit a pressure point on a moving, resisting opponent? also, aren't pressure points going to be located differently from one person to another (ever heard of anatomical variation?), and also won't they be spaced differently from each other depending on the person's size?
Maybe not but there are many points in the forms where it is . There are many styles of mantis some known and some not known . If you knew the form in question you would see the valid techniques through out.

And yes I have heard of anatomical variation . I study TCM as well as utilize pressure points in all aspects of my training.
As for the pressure point striking in the air , that is just stupid . You still have to do the techniques while doing the form . The pressure point strikes are practice on partners and studied in depth in the system.

djcaldwell

06-07-2007, 06:50 AM

Maybe not but there are many points in the forms where it is . There are many styles of mantis some known and some not known . If you knew the form in question you would see the valid techniques through out.

I'm going to asssume that was from one of those "not known" oh wait..."secretly taught" styles of mantis. cjurakpt is far better suited to continue that discussion if he wants. I only really know a couple of mantis players.

tattooedmonk

06-07-2007, 08:23 AM

I'm going to asssume that was from one of those "not known" oh wait..."secretly taught" styles of mantis. cjurakpt is far better suited to continue that discussion if he wants. I only really know a couple of mantis players. you can assume anything you want. Grow up .

djcaldwell

06-07-2007, 08:33 AM

you can assume anything you want. Grow up .

Grow up? Did I say nah nah nah or something? No, rather I pointed out inconsistencies and commented on performances and techniques that were clearly below par.

Your making statements about something which you are clearly unable to substantiate about a system that by its own former members statements (and more than one member) is misrepresenting itself.

Like I said earlier - if you're fulfilling your dream and are getting from it all that you need then there is no need to defend it. You have all you need, right? Yet, you persist in the discussion without providing anything to base your argument on other than the fact that you have a "reliable" source. So are you convincing us (not likely) or are you justifying it to yourself?

If you come to the table then be prepared. Otherwise, continue with your training and move on.

boshea

06-07-2007, 10:20 AM

Had I only started so young.....

....then you'd have been the baddest kung fu mofo on the planet by now. Yea, I think a lot of us are wishing the same thing!

Ah well, can only make the best of it now and train hard in the present...

Cheers,
-b

tattooedmonk

06-07-2007, 10:30 AM

Grow up? Did I say nah nah nah or something? No, rather I pointed out inconsistencies and commented on performances and techniques that were clearly below par.

Your making statements about something which you are clearly unable to substantiate about a system that by its own former members statements (and more than one member) is misrepresenting itself.

Like I said earlier - if you're fulfilling your dream and are getting from it all that you need then there is no need to defend it. You have all you need, right? Yet, you persist in the discussion without providing anything to base your argument on other than the fact that you have a "reliable" source. So are you convincing us (not likely) or are you justifying it to yourself?

If you come to the table then be prepared. Otherwise, continue with your training and move on. Yeah, former students who know nothing about the art.
(low level ) Save the other b.s for someone who gives a $h!T

sean_stonehart

06-07-2007, 03:47 PM

TTM... are you going to answer my questions or not?

If so, please do without too much time on Google.

If not, please say that you're not. There are several options available to you that will help you save face.

Among them are:
--- don't know & won't admit it
--- won't adjust your mindset to maybe learn something
--- just too stubborn to think that you might've been wrong for 15 years

What material are you working on since you've been doing CLF for 6 months now?

Judge Pen

06-07-2007, 06:45 PM

how exactly do you train strikes to "specific pressure points" by doing forms in the air? what are you aiming at? ever try to hit a pressure point on a moving, resisting opponent? also, aren't pressure points going to be located differently from one person to another (ever heard of anatomical variation?), and also won't they be spaced differently from each other depending on the person's size?

I'm going to chime in here, but let me say from the onset that I'm not a fan of pressure point technique at least not the way they are often presented. PP striking is almost impossible because of the reasons listed above, but it's not a bad idea to train for them and aim for them. So you don't a specific point, but at least you are aiming for very specific targets that are massed together in vulnerable areas. Hard object striking soft target equals effective technique whether you hit a specific point or not.

As for accounting for size differences etc, people who focus on PP do spend quite a bit of time learning the points anatomically. As for form performance, you assume the opponents in the form are roughly the same size as you. If I'm 6'1" then my 'punch to the nose' would be to someone that is 6'1" while I'm doing the form. That's no substitute for live training.

kwaichang

06-07-2007, 09:12 PM

djcaldwell

06-07-2007, 09:42 PM

There are about 700 PP on the human body which correlate with nerves and or blood vessels or origin and insertion points. to hipt them specifically takes practice to hit them in a certain order takes more . to hit them sometimes just takes luck. When a fighter shoots in for a take down there are approx 40-50 points vulnerable to strike. They work and are outlawed by the UFC along with groin grab eye gouge etc. KC

The fact that they exist and are targetable even in order is not disputed - the particular form and the notion that that array of whatever it was is designed to attack particluar points is what was questionable. Aside from the obvious fact that when training to target pressure points you can't do it effectively by striking the air. You need to have specific visual targets to strike.

From working with real people I know what targets I'm aiming even in motion and general areas to strike. Some people the spots are different - hey some people don't even react - my brother is one who really doesn't respond to several of the more commonly targeted areas. Others as noted are difficult to pinpoint which is cjurakpt's point - that by working them in the air you are never going to effectively learn to strike at these points. That aside from the fact that he doesn't appear to be striking at anything specific -versus having some type of spasm.

boshea

06-07-2007, 09:45 PM

There are about 700 PP on the human body which correlate with nerves and or blood vessels or origin and insertion points. to hipt them specifically takes practice to hit them in a certain order takes more . to hit them sometimes just takes luck. When a fighter shoots in for a take down there are approx 40-50 points vulnerable to strike. They work and are outlawed by the UFC along with groin grab eye gouge etc. KC

Are the 40-50 vulnerable points among the 700 pressure points that you are referring to here?

It's certainly legal to strike an opponent who is going in for a takedown. I don't see any mention of the 40-50 points vulnerable to strikes that you say are outlawed in the UFC rules (http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules#section3). Which are they?

The UFC rules do mention a few specific strikes that are not allowed:

- Eye gouging of any kind.
- Groin attacks of any kind.
- Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
- Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
- Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
- Kicking to the kidney with the heel.

Thanks,
-brian

cjurakpt

06-07-2007, 10:01 PM

[
When a fighter shoots in for a take down there are approx 40-50 points vulnerable to strike. They work and are outlawed by the UFC KC

hey, guess what? thought I'd ask the MMA crowd what they thought about that!

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46733

kungfujunky

06-07-2007, 10:27 PM

djcaldwell

06-07-2007, 10:47 PM

the rules state no eye gouges and no groin attacks. in those areas there are AT LEAST 40-50 pressure points.

this is a fact and is not a statement that shaolin do is to deadly for ufc

grow up man your just looking to cause fights.

your acting like a troll

That is why people laugh at TCMA because of statments like that - ooh it's too deadly - I can't show you my secret killing techiques. What do you truly believe that SD has that other TCMA or MA has for that matter that makes it so much more lethal.

I'm not the MMA bandwagon guy but the training and conditioning these guys do is intense - they may not know the paralyzing pressure point combination that will make your head pop off - but I'm sure they can pretty much just take your head off.

WAKE UP - the kung fu fantasy that you live in doesn't exist - expand your knowledge be "realistic" in what your capable of doing and maybe then you'll find real Kung Fu. Nobody - NOT EVEN IN HONG KONG buys into the special secret killing powers of kung fu. Its a western mythology based on cinematic dreams.

Look my Sifu grabs me and leaves me bruised - not because he has magical death touch but because he spent the last 26 years of his life training, conditioning and building that strength that when he pokes me in the chest it FEELS like his finger is going to come out of my back but it's nothing secret about it. He can grab the right spot probably more often than not but let not kid. It's because he's grabbed those points probably 10,000 times throughout his life.

The deadliness of the art doesn't come from the art itself but from the understanding and effectiveness of it's practitioner. An MMA guy or a Boxer I assure you has a better jab, cross and uppercut than your above average MA guy...why - because they do it day in and day out.

Sifu tosses out a saying all the time - don't fear the man that knows 10,000 techniques but fear the man that knows one and does it 10,0000 times.

Too deadly...please tell me some of the techniques that would make your art too deadly...if they're not secret of course.

kungfujunky

06-07-2007, 10:58 PM

exactly. the same holds true for my instructors and grandmaster.

the point is what kc said was true. those crucial pressure point areas are off limits in ufc.

he didnt say we are to deadly. simply that those points are against the rules.

you guys are making some sweeping generalizations here.

kwaichang

06-07-2007, 11:02 PM

I guess if the mma guys practiced to hit a point it would work for them and they might have more respect for it, instead they would rather just hit a head. As far as being too deadly well I guess that depends on the practioner not the art, but training in an art that is just pitty pat will only get you killed. As far as SD is concerned there are classes closed to those with out the time in. Ifought ion the street and elsewhere and I know what Isee and have experienced. JUST A QUESTION have you cj or pt really used your stuff or are you guys just wannabes and like to argue///?? KC

boshea

06-07-2007, 11:18 PM

That is why people laugh at TCMA because of statments like that - ooh it's too deadly - I can't show you my secret killing techiques. What do you truly believe that SD has that other TCMA or MA has for that matter that makes it so much more lethal.

In kungfujunky's defense, I'm pretty sure he was not saying that. His wording was a bit awkward and would have benefitted from some punctuation, but read it again. He was definitely not saying that Shaolin-Do is too deadly for UFC:

this is a fact and is not a statement that shaolin do is to deadly for ufc

-brian

Judge Pen

06-07-2007, 11:32 PM

- Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
- Striking downward using the point of the elbow.

I think these two rules limit the options one has to defending the shoot. Not that these are the only or best way to defend the shoot, but they have obviously been outlawed because of the potential for spinal injury.

Judge Pen

06-07-2007, 11:36 PM

The thing is, in any TMA, these techniques (striking the spine, groin, eye gouges, elbows down to the back, spine or head) are taught, at least in the forms/applicaitons, but they are rarely practiced because they are dangerous if unrestricted. So, in a sense, most TMA, from Muay Thai to Tai Chi, contains techniques that are "too deadly" and rule exist to protect agasint them from being used. It doesn't make people that train TMA better or worse.

I agree with the 10,000 technique vs. the 1 technique done 10,000 times statement. In essence, effectivness depends upon the intensity and quality of training involved with the individual. I agree it's a crock to sit back and say you're too deadly if you don't take the time to be effective at all techniques that you can use. MMA fighters are so effective because they train so intensly and are so conditioned physically and with timing and resistance. But there are trade offs. . .

kwaichang

06-07-2007, 11:50 PM

djcaldwell

06-07-2007, 11:53 PM

In kungfujunky's defense, I'm pretty sure he was not saying that. His wording was a bit awkward and would have benefitted from some punctuation, but read it again. He was definitely not saying that Shaolin-Do is too deadly for UFC:
-brian

My bad KC as it would appear that was not the intended statement and TTM can now say that I actually did read something wrong. The point I make in itself is still valid.

JUST A QUESTION have you cj or pt really used your stuff or are you guys just wannabes and like to argue///?? KC

I grew up living in 3 out of 5 boroughs of NYC the oldest of my generation so I spent my entire youth fighting. If not for me then for a younger cousin or brother. When I was a kid it's how disputes were settled - you win you're right you loose shut up and go home. I've won and I've lost. I've also fought in the ring Muay Thai and San Da again with both wins and losses. Since I reached a certain level of skill and w/ age I stopped fighting out side and even working the door at bars found that I break up and diffuse more than throw down. I love to spar with anyone who is willing. It's the only way to work skill and grow. So the in short - Yeah I've fought a little.

tattooedmonk

06-07-2007, 11:54 PM

Are the 40-50 vulnerable points among the 700 pressure points that you are referring to here?

It's certainly legal to strike an opponent who is going in for a takedown. I don't see any mention of the 40-50 points vulnerable to strikes that you say are outlawed in the UFC rules (http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules#section3). Which are they?

The UFC rules do mention a few specific strikes that are not allowed:

- Eye gouging of any kind.
- Groin attacks of any kind.
- Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
- Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
- Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
- Kicking to the kidney with the heel.

Thanks,
-brianStriking to the throat, trachea, back of the head ,and spine, as well as using the tip of the elbow

BentMonk

06-08-2007, 12:02 AM

Posted by: djcaldwell - "Sifu tosses out a saying all the time - don't fear the man that knows 10,000 techniques but fear the man that knows one and does it 10,0000 times."

This is my favorite MA saying. I also agree that whatever combat art one studies, there is no substitute for live training, and serious physical conditioning. This is how we train in Louisville. I know other SD schools that do as well. As to the quality of the posted clips...

I am not familiar enough with mantis outside of SD to make an informed comparison.

The tiger clip was IMO on par with any average student in any MA. Most people who study MA do so as a hobby. Life is too hectic for most of us to devote as much time to training as we'd like. I also feel that it would be tough for any SD player to get a truly unbiased critique from this crowd. There have been exceptions, JP's kwan do and sparring clips for two. I have seen remarkable performances of SD material. I have asked the people who did them to please post themselves, they politely declined. They're indifferent to this entire discussion. On the one hand I see their point, and most of the time I am of a similar mind. Then there are times that I get tired of seeing my art get slammed all the time. I'd post videos of myself, but I am average at best.

tattooedmonk

06-08-2007, 12:03 AM

My bad KC as it would appear that was not the intended statement and TTM can now say that I actually did read something wrong. The point I make in itself is still valid.

I grew up living in 3 out of 5 boroughs of NYC the oldest of my generation so I spent my entire youth fighting. If not for me then for a younger cousin or brother. When I was a kid it's how disputes were settled - you win you're right you loose shut up and go home. I've won and I've lost. I've also fought in the ring Muay Thai and San Da again with both wins and losses. Since I reached a certain level of skill and w/ age I stopped fighting out side and even working the door at bars found that I break up and diffuse more than throw down. I love to spar with anyone who is willing. It's the only way to work skill and grow. So the in short - Yeah I've fought a little.
Actually you have been misreading all along. What the hell is this crap?Talk about lacking in humility.

Judge Pen

06-08-2007, 12:15 AM

There have been exceptions, JP's kwan do and sparring clips for two.

I disagree with you there. I'm average at best myslef, but I'm a scrapper and don't mind the contact. As for my form, I can spend hours pointing out the flaws there, but my point in posting my form wasn't to show how good or bad of a performer that I am, but to give an honest representation of the typical SD form (one that has been taught in SD for as long as I've been around and --I'm told--for a fair bit longer) and show that it is unmistakingly Chinese in origin

People can criticize me and my performance, but the form is CMA. Although many argue that it is a more accurate representation of a pu dao form instead of a kwan dao form, it is still CMA in technique. It is not used as one would a naginata for instance.

djcaldwell

06-08-2007, 12:22 AM

In boxing aspect of MMA jab, cross, upper cut, hook short and long and haymaker for those who like it 10 rounds = approx 1800 - 2300 punches with and w/o resistance = 5000 punches a day . In Ma forms the back fist, finger thrust tech, chops, palm heels ridge hand . BLAA blaaa blaaa. My point by the time you do 20 forms 3 x each with all the techniques you have equaled the repetion done by a boxer fighter MMA. then add focus mits in MA Heavy bag and sparring too just like the other guys but tweek it with more accuracy to specific points and specific punching and striking ways, and I guesss you will just be OK at best. KC

So you're working 20 forms 3 times a week and then doing all the the other stuff as well.

Look I'm not speaking from a desk jockeys position...I've trainined I've trained in CMA since I was a teen and I've trained Thai Boxing and even had the opportunity to train with David Ross at his school and with his guys. IT'S DIFFERENT.

Forms are not ever going to make someone an efficient fighter. I love forms, I think they rule and serve their purpose but IT IS NOT to create a fighter. Yeah boxers shadow box and there is a drill that is worked with punches - but its purposes are more a) warm up b) develop muscle memory and c) speed. But you do not and can not develop the "feel" until you hit something with purpose. Then you feel how your body reacts, then you feel how the positioning that may be off in form affects your strikes.

As for accuracy and perhaps I'm misreading again but if the implication is that there is "less accuracy" required for boxing then - you haven't boxed. It's not just wild swinging at someones head. There are targets and points just as in any other fighting - now make it Thai and you have to worry about a world more than just those hands.

Look I love TCMA and for years I was under the same illusion as many in which I was the KF advocate and dare you say that our skill is not deadly. Both my Sifu's had told me that it's not really like that and I STILL DIDN'T BELIEVE IT. Until I went to Hong Kong with my Sifu heard the same thing he Sifu had been telling me for two years and the light went off in my head.

Look KF without a doubt is Kick arse and by the rest of the MA world, totally underated right now and it's not because it's not efficient. It's because we have groups of people who boast of it's deadliness but never show it. Who speak of the effectiveness of their training and how they can do anything...until they get in the ring and can't adapt.

As far as I'm concerned - a good martial artist, a good fighter, needs to evolve, grow and learn from their mistakes. If you can't compete because your techniques are too strong or illegal and you as a fighter can't adapt them to do it then you have no "Kung Fu" you're in essense a monkey duplicating the same thing he /she has been taught.

Learn, grow and make yourself better.

boshea

06-08-2007, 12:25 AM

Striking to the throat, trachea, back of the head ,and spine, as well as using the tip of the elbow

Forgive me if I'm missing something, but isn't that what I just posted?

What I was asking was specifically about the 40 or 50 pressure points that kwaichang said are banned by the UFC. Kungfujunky responded and said that between eye gouges and groin attacks there are at least 40 or 50 pressure points. I think that's splitting hairs a bit, but it looks like just a matter of using different terms.

Thanks for clarifying guys.
-brian

djcaldwell

06-08-2007, 12:29 AM

Actually you have been misreading all along. What the hell is this crap?Talk about lacking in humility.

Well I was addressing a question posed to me by KC. As for humility, where is it in the MA handbook that one needs to be humble to be a martial artist. That again is a KF Fantasy of the "moral" code that we must abide by in order to truly succeed at our art.

It's neither required nor is one held back because he's not such a nice person. Does the name Bok Mei mean anything to you?

Not to mention that if I lacked humility I certainly would not have posted that I've lost fights - I would present myself as the ultimate fighter - but alas - I'm not - would like to be - but - no actually I'm good the way I am.

tattooedmonk

06-08-2007, 12:34 AM

Forgive me if I'm missing something, but isn't that what I just posted?

What I was asking was specifically about the 40 or 50 pressure points that kwaichang said are banned by the UFC. Kungfujunky responded and said that between eye gouges and groin attacks there are at least 40 or 50 pressure points. I think that's splitting hairs a bit, but it looks like just a matter of using different terms.

Thanks for clarifying guys.
-brian Actually,what I was saying that in these areas are the pressure points in which he was talking about . Actually there are more than that.

kwaichang

06-08-2007, 12:48 AM

Boxing does not teach to take a knuckle and hit a point and if it doesnt teach it and you dont do it it anit going to happen for you. I have boxed and there is accuracy see De Lahoya when he got knocked out TKO by a strike to Liver 13. That is an exception though. Most KO 's are due to trauma repetive to the brain stem via the chin. KC

tattooedmonk

06-08-2007, 01:03 AM

So you're working 20 forms 3 times a week and then doing all the the other stuff as well.

Look I'm not speaking from a desk jockeys position...I've trainined I've trained in CMA since I was a teen and I've trained Thai Boxing and even had the opportunity to train with David Ross at his school and with his guys. IT'S DIFFERENT.

Forms are not ever going to make someone an efficient fighter. I love forms, I think they rule and serve their purpose but IT IS NOT to create a fighter. Yeah boxers shadow box and there is a drill that is worked with punches - but its purposes are more a) warm up b) develop muscle memory and c) speed. But you do not and can not develop the "feel" until you hit something with purpose. Then you feel how your body reacts, then you feel how the positioning that may be off in form affects your strikes.

As for accuracy and perhaps I'm misreading again but if the implication is that there is "less accuracy" required for boxing then - you haven't boxed. It's not just wild swinging at someones head. There are targets and points just as in any other fighting - now make it Thai and you have to worry about a world more than just those hands.

Look I love TCMA and for years I was under the same illusion as many in which I was the KF advocate and dare you say that our skill is not deadly. Both my Sifu's had told me that it's not really like that and I STILL DIDN'T BELIEVE IT. Until I went to Hong Kong with my Sifu heard the same thing he Sifu had been telling me for two years and the light went off in my head.

Look KF without a doubt is Kick arse and by the rest of the MA world, totally underated right now and it's not because it's not efficient. It's because we have groups of people who boast of it's deadliness but never show it. Who speak of the effectiveness of their training and how they can do anything...until they get in the ring and can't adapt.

As far as I'm concerned - a good martial artist, a good fighter, needs to evolve, grow and learn from their mistakes. If you can't compete because your techniques are too strong or illegal and you as a fighter can't adapt them to do it then you have no "Kung Fu" you're in essense a monkey duplicating the same thing he /she has been taught.

Learn, grow and make yourself better. Yes , forms will make you a better fighter if you know how to use them properly. They are more than just shadow boxing or just a dance . You have to know how to use them or they are just what you think they are ....useless for fighting. Do you understand how forms are used in their entirety ??Each piece needs to be brokendown for practical appilication and all the techniques can be used at the proper place and time ...if not ....it is just a dance.

A big reason why no one can prove it's effectiveness in the ring is because it is for martial purposes ......you know WAR!!?!? On the battlfield it is kill or be killed. All the rules of MMA prohibit the use of certain techniques that are the mainstay of CMA ........ which are going in for the kill .

It is not for sport . Yeah you can train a CMArtist to fight in the ring but that means that he does justs what everyone else is doing punching ,kicking , and grappling. Just the basics.

What makes CMA more profound is the depth of psychology , philosophy and physiology that is delved into. It is more than what MMA is about.

I know that there are plenty of guys in MMA that practice TMA but have to strip it down to basics for sport. This relys on a certain state of mind ,spirit and body than a TMArtist or a real warrior would use.

It is very difficult to learn how to follow within a specific set of rules when normally anything goes. So any MMA guy who has never trained in TMA has an advantage over someone who does not and just learns MMA right from the beginning in a sport setting. you put a MMA guy in the setting of a real warrior or someone who does not have to follow rules but they do....they get their asses handed to them..

CMA and TMA can and do get into the ring and win and lose just like anyone else . But most guys that practice TMA or CMA do not focus on the ancient teaching while competing in sport because that is not what the sport is about . It is about money and fame ...which is not what CMA and TMA are about. It is what sport and business are all about

djcaldwell

06-08-2007, 01:26 AM

Yes , forms will make you a better fighter if you know how to use them properly. They are more than just shadow boxing or just a dance . You have to know how to use them or they are just what you think they are ....useless for fighting. Do you understand how forms are used in their entirety ??Each piece needs to be brokendown for practical appilication and all the techniques can be used at the proper place and time ...if not ....it is just a dance.

Okay if you believe that forms will make you a better fighter then it is not me who does not understand their use and I will not try and convince you otherwise. But question, what would happen if heaven forbid you just practiced the applications? AH...the world might implode. I know many teachers that only teach form after application to avoid the illusion that you have falledn under.

A big reason why no one can prove it's effectiveness in the ring is because it is for martial purposes ......you know WAR!!?!? On the battlfield it is kill or be killed. All the rules of MMA prohibit the use of certain techniques that are the mainstay of CMA ........ which are going in for the kill .

You are joking right? Basically if you can't apply what you have learned in 'ANY' setting then you do not have a grasp on what it is you do. The whole it's for battlefield fighitng is nothing more than an excuse for those who are unable to adapt. David Ross I feel your pain.

It is not for sport . Yeah you can train a CMArtist to fight in the ring but that means that he does justs what everyone else is doing punching ,kicking , and grappling. Just the basics.

If your training is not all encompassing in that you can't do those things above that you mentioned then you're in for a rude awakening should you ever be confronted by someone who can. Even "basic" grappling fundamentals can make the world of difference - but of course with your deadly skills the fight would never make it to the ground.

What makes CMA more profound is the depth of psychology , philosophy and physiology that is delved into. It is more than what MMA is about.

You are no fighter - because that comment is just foolish. Have you ever stood eye to eye with someone - tell me that your psychology and philosophy are going to win the fight for you if you have never done it before. You save all your killing skills for when you need it - how do you know you can ever use them. YOU DON'T and since we don't embark on battles for our lives on a daily basis anylonger you and others are able to live in the fantasy that if you ever have to you will be able to defeat any opponent.

It is very difficult to learn how to follow within a specific set of rules when normally anything goes. So any MMA guy who has never trained in TMA has an advantage over someone who does not and just learns MMA right from the beginning in a sport setting. you put a MMA guy in the setting of a real warrior or someone who does not have to follow rules but they do....they get their asses handed to them..

Say that to Matt Hughes or Matt Serra or Rich Franklin and see how they feel about it. What do you define as a warrior? I know people who have never taken MA a day in their lives that have kicked the crap out of people who studied for years and years dilligently - he was a warrior. I would like to know what you picture a warrior to be - my family is all marines and veterans of the wars you speak of - they are warriors - so I'm really intersted in your response.

boshea

06-08-2007, 02:28 AM

Actually,what I was saying that in these areas are the pressure points in which he was talking about . Actually there are more than that.

It just looked funny because everything you listed in that post was listed right above it in the text that you quoted.

This is your entire post, excluding what you quoted:

Striking to the throat, trachea, back of the head ,and spine, as well as using the tip of the elbow

Which followed this quoted text posted by me, and which contained everything that you said above:

...
The UFC rules do mention a few specific strikes that are not allowed:

- Eye gouging of any kind.
- Groin attacks of any kind.
- Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
- Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
- Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
- Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
...

I'm not calling you on the accuracy of your statement (or on your martial skill.) I don't doubt that there are many pressure points on the human body, and many more than were listed above. That list was a subset of the fouls listed on the UFC web site, since that is what was being discussed (i.e. strikes that are explicitly banned in the UFC rules). What confused me was that what you said and what you say you meant differ, in my opinion. No offense intended, just trying to learn and understand.

Thanks for the responses. This is an interesting thread.

Regards,
-brian

kwaichang

06-08-2007, 02:49 AM

boshea

06-08-2007, 03:37 AM

One cannot compare apples to oranges although they are both fruit.TMA/CMA are thousands of years old the forms are a representation of the techniques used in real combat. If one cant apply the techniques in training the will not be efficiently used in a fight. MMA is not a fight it is a sport and although the guys in it can perform their art well that does not mean they can fight. While I am sure some can that does not mean the TMA cant. I feel the level of conditioning the MMA fighter is at assists him/her in their sport and would give the illusion that they can fight. On the other hand the TMA is usually not as well cond and employs a different training strategy for their techniques. To watch a man doing forms and assume he can fight just because his/her form is good is stupid. However there is something raw about the TMA that can fight and do forms. I believe therefor that a TMA that applies the proper training principles in his training can win against a MMA fighter. due to the fact that a MA has proven war techniques and strategy at his disposal and it is not a sport if performed correctly. KC

While this is theoretically true, I think where the MMA guys are coming from is that typical MMA training (in which sparring is an integral part, and frequently competition as well) gets pretty close to real fighting, where typical TMA training does not tend to emphasize that aspect of it. I'm not including forms competition in this. I mean fighting in competition. And it's not universal, just a tendency that many people have observed. That is not to say that TMAs aren't effective, or that a TMA practitioner can't become as effective a fighter or more so. You mention that conditioning is important, but being able to use your techniques under the pressure of a real confrontation is just as important.

It is really a numbers game. Take a look at the number of people who practice MMA, vs. the number of people who practice a TMA. I ask myself, percentage-wise which side is more slanted towards being prepared for a real fight? I think it's probably on the MMA side, mainly because what they focus on in their regular training involves a realistic confrontations.

You can have the best technique in the world, but if you have never actually practiced using it in a real confrontation where both people (or more) are really trying to defeat the other(s), it's impossible to know what it will feel like when the time comes to use that technique. I agree that many TMAs (Northern Shaolin being the only one that I have any experience with) have very effective techniques. The Shaolin monks fought off warlords, which speaks to the effectiveness of their techniques. Warlords! How many of us TMA practitioners have ever done that? So if you want to talk about comparing apples and oranges...

So, you'd think that I was one of those MMA guys the way I talk! No, but I realize that after all the years I've put into training TMA, I don't think I'm prepared for a realistic fight (yet.) So I am addressing that.

Just my opinion. Peace everybody!
-brian

kwaichang

06-08-2007, 03:48 AM

cjurakpt

06-08-2007, 04:22 AM

ok, now that the bruhaha has ensued, I guess I should clarify a few things

first off, I am well aware that no one specifically said SD was too deadly for UFC - there's a little known literary device known as sarcasm, perhaps some of you have heard of it?

second, I think that some people are missing the point about the comment I bolded out re: the 40 to 50 "illegal" points that would be exposed when someone does a shoot: first, when I think of a shoot, i think of a good shoot - not one where you bend forward at the waist and rush in head first; this is cr@p; a good shoot is where you drop your center and maintain your postural integrety as you come in, usually after some sort of fake, whatever; so, what that means is that, a couple of things: first, you are not exposing the back of your head, neck or upper torso (which obviates the whole notion of elbowing the back of the head as a shoot defense); you are coming in with hands up, being cautious to evade anything coming your way - so the degree of exposure, in a good shoot, is still there, but it's calculated risk and not the same as someone barreling in on you pell mell; now, this may be what you all had in mind as well - I don't know for sure, just clarifying; point is, the degree of exposure in a good shoot is not as much as in a poorly executed one

second, I'm surprised that no one picked up on the obvious contradiction of the statement about 40-50 points being exposed during a shoot which are all allegedly illegal: so here's the thing - considering just the head and shoulders, if you consider the distribution of 20 points per side of the body, well, there's no place left to hit that WOULDN'T have at least one of those points! now, far be it from me to ask someone to name and describe those points specifically, but it would be impossible NOT to hit someone in at least one of them under the described scenario;

just sayin'...

djcaldwell

06-08-2007, 04:24 AM

MMA ring fighting is not a fight in a fight a beer mug cracks your skull and a chair over the head and a table leg in the ear. I dont see that in a MMA fight. But I guess if you want to throw a punch and roll around on a nice soft mat and try to hurt some one with those tech thats ok . But when you roll on broken glass or concrete or sticks it changes things and while most TMA dont do the bag work or the mit work you can if you want but the MMA guys and the hybrid MA guys usually dont train the other way cause they make their money that way and if they get hurt they get poor. I think if you were to put a TMA that has trained realistically and with effort and a MMA in a bar fight the TMA would fare better. If it is a 1x1 confront the MMA might do better but that can depend on environment and how many friends the opponent has. KC

Don't know what bars you hang out in but I'll stay away from there! I've been in bars and clubs since I was 16 years old and I've only seen one person get hit with a bottle and that's cause he was an idiot. I saw one person get cut and one person get completely stomped. All the rest and I'm talking I've seen a huge 10 on 5 brawl and yeah they go to the ground but not the other things you noted are rare occassions.

Alas I know that there is no way I'm going to shed any light on this subject for you as you will believe what you will. I've lived it and it's a harsh reality actually makes you bitter for a little while but when the reality of the situation sets in you realize that a) Kung Fu is great BUT our training and methods need some modification.

If you're (and I mean that in the general sense) not fighting different people, different styles and working outside the mindset that we have trapped ourselves in as TCMA practitioners then the art will be doomed. KF needs to grow and expand.

Good luck in your training. Just a side note when the day comes that you (again general) are faced with the reality through being tested - just try not to blame the KF itself as I have seen so many others do. Look back on the experience, see where improvement is needed what did and didn't work and build on it. That's the only way KF will continue to grow and compete in everysense in the MA world that is rapidly changing.

boshea

06-08-2007, 04:25 AM

MMA ring fighting is not a fight in a fight a beer mug cracks your skull and a chair over the head and a table leg in the ear. I dont see that in a MMA fight. But I guess if you want to throw a punch and roll around on a nice soft mat and try to hurt some one with those tech thats ok . But when you roll on broken glass or concrete or sticks it changes things and while most TMA dont do the bag work or the mit work you can if you want but the MMA guys and the hybrid MA guys usually dont train the other way cause they make their money that way and if they get hurt they get poor. I think if you were to put a TMA that has trained realistically and with effort and a MMA in a bar fight the TMA would fare better. If it is a 1x1 confront the MMA might do better but that can depend on environment and how many friends the opponent has. KC

But that is what I am saying. We are in agreement about what a TMA practitioner can become. What I am saying is that this is not often born out in reality. You say that MMA guys don't train in bar fight situations where they risk being hit by beer mugs or having to fight on hard floors with broken glass. But neither do TMA guys (at least none that I know train that way.) Let's be balanced here.

What does happen is this: MMA fighters (for the most part) prepare themselves for a confrontation. TMA practitioners (for the most part) practice forms. There are exceptions on both sides. I am just stating why I think the perception is such that MMA fighters are more prepared for real-world fighting than most TMA practitioners. It doesn't matter how good your techniques are if you don't pit them against someone else's. The timing is different and the consequences of failure are higher.

This is not a matter of "MMA is better than TMA" or vice versa. This is a matter of the way that we TMA practitioners train. We can become more effective if we start training in competitive and "realistic" situations like the MMA guys do (even if our training lacks beer mugs and broken glass). It's the psychological effect that a confrontation has (and how prepared you are for it) that makes the difference, in my experience. In the times that I have gotten into confrontations that could have turned ugly (fortunately I have always been able to end them diplomatically), I might have been able to defeat the other guy with the techniques that I have learned, even though he may have been bigger than me (I was almost in such a situation recently, but those who know me know that as sure as I am given to long parenthetical statements in my posts, I am not given to violence), the one thing that consistently robbs me of my confidence has been not knowing how well my techniques will work in a real fight situation. Not being sure that I can land the strike while the other guy is fighting back. Just a moment of hesitation due to this lack of confidence might have made the difference between me being able to defend myself, or me getting stomped.

Personally I want to be prepared, and that means admitting where my training has had its shortcomings, and eliminating them.

BentMonk

06-08-2007, 04:39 AM

I have seen SD used in the ring. The SD guy won by TKO. I too hate the "TCMA techniques are too deadly for the ring" cop out. If you train for the ring, you'll be able to use your techniques in the ring. I think it's obvious that no sport combat match is going to bear any resemblance to a real fight. Real fights are brief, and ugly. IMO if you put your skills to the test in the ring a few times, you will have a better understanding of what might work for you in a fight. I have no desire to be in a real fight. They're messy and have lots of consequences. Sport combat is like sparring on steroids. I also think it's good to find out how you'll really react when you take a solid hit to the dome. MMA fighters and boxers have a serious advantage over anyone in any art that doesn't train live with contact. As Ali said, "Every body's got a plan 'til they get hit." I can know 1000 deadly techniques, but if it only takes a hay maker from Bubba to drop me, what's the point? You will fight the way you train. Peace :)

NastyHaggis

06-08-2007, 04:59 AM

this is the thread that never ends
it just goes on and on my friends
some people started posting here not knowing what it was
and they'll continue posting here forever just because...
(repeat from beginning)

1,000 samolians to the geek that knows where this comes from...

Barney. Now pay up sucka! LOL!

cjurakpt

06-08-2007, 05:01 AM

MMA ring fighting is not a fight in a fight a beer mug cracks your skull and a chair over the head and a table leg in the ear.
so, if you are talking about context specific training, i take it that you mimic that sort of environment when you drill your techniques (you know, dark, crowded, loud, smokey, rowdy patrons, slippery floors, testosterone charged 20somethings...); if not, then you are equally at the same disadvantage

I dont see that in a MMA fight. But I guess if you want to throw a punch and roll around on a nice soft mat and try to hurt some one with those tech thats ok .
that's the way they actually are selling it these days, believe it or not "MMA - it's all about your comfort level.":rolleyes:

But when you roll on broken glass or concrete or sticks it changes things and while most TMA dont do the bag work or the mit work you can if you want but the MMA guys and the hybrid MA guys usually dont train the other way cause they make their money that way and if they get hurt they get poor. I think if you were to put a TMA that has trained realistically and with effort and a MMA in a bar fight the TMA would fare better.
what, again, does training "realistically" mean? unless you are training in the actual context, then you are not training "realistically" so to speak; in MMA, there is one major components of that "realistic" aspect present all the time, training techniques always in context (resistance) versus abstractly (forms); and most TMA guys not only don't do the contact work, they don't do the on context realistic stuff you are talking about either

If it is a 1x1 confront the MMA might do better but that can depend on environment and how many friends the opponent has. KC
look, you gotta stay consistent with your argument: what you are trying to cover for is the fact that on a BASIC level, MMA training is more realistic then pretty much all TCMA at this point, in the sense that it emphasizes immediate application of learned techniques in a resisted environment, and that it requires a greater level of physical conditioning as well; your argument seeks to downplay that by saying that this will do you no good or less good in a "real" fight situation; as for friends and whatnot - this is a HIGHLY unpredictable variable, which in the right combination will render ALL martial arts training useless

so here's the question:
(and spare me the battle field analogy - TCMA has NOTING to do with battlefield combat - mainly because battlefield combat was ALWAYS done with weapons, while wearing protective gear - really sounds more like Dog Brothers!):

what is it SPECIFICALLY about TCMA that better prepares you for a "real" fight than training MMA style? is it the techniques? how you train? what? what is this oft alluded to but never specified secret decoder ring noumenna? ("ding an sich" for you Kantians out there);

the world is dying to know...