Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[MasterKiller]

How about a forum titled P!ss!ng Contests or something like that where anyone who wants to have those discussions can Internet-fight to their heart's content? And anytime a thread starts to degenerate into a flame war, it just gets sent to that forum? That way those of us who are not really interested in either p!ss!ing or in having to smell the p!ss of others can just enjoy the good aspects of the forum.

Or we could just start a forum for whiners and move posts like this into it.

[DPL]

Or we could just start a forum for whiners and move posts like this into it.

So that's one vote for more sniping and bickering... anyone else?

[Lamassu]

So that's one vote for more sniping and bickering... anyone else?

Oo, me! me! :p

Seriously, though I like your suggestion, but I don't think it would be feasible, especially since 9 times out of 10 these threads lead to p!ssing contests anyway, and moving them about amongst the multiple forums would become a full time job. The only way a thread will not degenerate to cok swinging, is if the topic is so obscure that no one that isn't familiar with it can rightly form an opinion, much less bicker about why their's is better, and if those involved in the actual topic just ignore the asinine posts that slip in every now and just stay on topic.

Of course with a thread titled like this one 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?', what it actually says is 'p!$$ and moan here'.

[NastyHaggis]

Hey DPL, check your private messages.:)

[Kung Pao]

You know, I don't really remeber much of my SD mantis (1 form--only remember a couple movements), but this reminds me of it.

Don't know if it's a simlar form. Thought it was intresting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah1sORstDpY

[kwaichang]

Wow Kung Pao what did you learn no mantis in SD even looks like that at all KC

[dougadam]

You know, I don't really remeber much of my SD mantis (1 form--only remember a couple movements), but this reminds me of it.

Don't know if it's a simlar form. Thought it was intresting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah1sORstDpY

Interesting video, it appears to be a soft style.

[Golden Tiger]

I agree KW. I noticed no similarities in the form either.

[Judge Pen]

I agree KW. I noticed no similarities in the form either.

Long time, no posts. Good to see you still check things out around here. How's training?

[Golden Tiger]

Long time, no posts. Good to see you still check things out around here. How's training?


Yeah, I'm still lurking in the background.;) Training is good, of course if I told you anymore, I would have to kill ya:p

Hope all in well for you and yours down south.

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, I'm still lurking in the background.;) Training is good, of course if I told you anymore, I would have to kill ya:p

Hope all in well for you and yours down south.

Going well. Still working on 4th, but I'm getting closer. Training with a baby to distract me is interesting.

[Kung Pao]

Wow Kung Pao what did you learn no mantis in SD even looks like that at all KC

:o I suppose my only excuse is, it's been a very, very long time.

[Kung Pao]

I went back and read some of the old posts on this thread never really did before, but I was bored. Apparently, a lot of people take exception to Shaolin-Do's contention that hinese Martial Arts were outlawed in Indonesia somewhere in the middle of hte century.

I have a bunch of old issues of Inside Kungfu Magazine that I bought featureing Grandmaster The when I was still in that style a long time ago wen it was cool to see your GM in a magazine back then. Shaolin -Do was in that magazine. In November 1987, James Halladay the writer of the articlal stated quite clearly that the reason the art adopted Japanese trappings was in order to avoid negative publicity due to intolerance displayed towards Chinese by the Indonszns. There is no mention of illegal practice or laws.

So which is it? Was it outlawed, and so adopted Jaanese styling? Or was it just to "fit in" to avoid negative publicity?

Another question: is Sin himself Chinese, or Indonesian, ethnically speaking?

Just curious. It's been a long time. If this isn't a touchy subject for you guys, i'm interested to know. Might settle a beef or two.

[MasterKiller]

Sin came to the U.S. in 1966.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Chinese_legislation_in_Indonesia


PP 10/1959, which forced Chinese Indonesian to close their businesses by 1 January 1960 and relocate in urban areas.
Presidium Directive 127/U/Kep/12/1966 that explicitly requires Chinese Indonesian to adopt Indonesian-sounding names.
Cabinet Presidium Instruction No. 37/U/IN/6/1967, which prohibits further residency or work permits to new Chinese immigrants, their wives, or children; freezing any capital raised by "foreigners" in Indonesia; closure of "foreign" schools except for diplomatic corps and their families; the number of Indonesian students must be the majority and in proportion to "foreigners" in any state schools; and that implementation of the "Chinese issue" will henceforth be the responsibility of the minister for political affairs.
Presidential Instruction No. 14/1967 (Inpres No. 14/1967) on Chinese Religion, Beliefs, and Traditions, which effectively ban any Chinese literatures and cultures in Indonesia, including the prohibition of Chinese characters. Although Chinese names are not explicitly mentioned, "newly naturalized" Indonesian Chinese were strongly advised to do so. (Annulled by former president Abdurrahman Wahid in Keppres No. 6/2000; annulment supported by former president Megawati Soekarnoputri in Keppres No 19/2002 by declaring Chinese New Year as national holiday)
Resolution of the Provisional People's Consultative Assembly no. 32, 1966 (TAP MPRS No. 32/1966) expressly bans the use of Chinese characters in public.
Presidium Directive No. 240/1967 (Inpres No. 240/1967) which mandates assimilation of "foreigners" and support the previous directive of 127/U/Kep/12/1966 for Indonesian Chinese to adopt Indonesian-sounding names.
Home Affairs Ministry No. 455.2-360/1988 on Regulation of Temples, which effectively and severely restrict building or repairing Chinese temples.
Circular of the Director General for Press and Graphics Guidance in the Ministry of Information No.02/SE/Ditjen-PPGK/1988, which further restrict the usage of Chinese language and/or characters.
Instruction of the Ministry of Home Affairs No. X01/1977 on Implementing Instructions for Population Registration and the confidential instructions No.3.462/1.755.6 of the Jakarta government January 28, 1980 both authorize special codes in national identification cards to indicate ethnic Chinese origin. The code was "A01" prefix.
Cabinet Presidium Circular SE-06/Pres-Kab/6/1967 on Changing the Term China and Chinese, requires the usage of the term "Cina" (which is considered a derogatory term by many Chinese Indonesians) instead of "Tionghoa" (as ethnic Chinese refer to themselves).

[Kung Pao]

Wow. That's amazing. It's hard to believe how they'd supress it like that.

Still, if those dates are right, it would seem that the legal thing can't explain it. It would explain wihy the Indonesian school whouldo have changed in his absence, but Sin would already be a such and such blackbelt by then, so the Japanese styling would have to predate that. I'm sure the laws didn't come from nowhere. there must have been local pressures before the national ones, you know? So maybe it's a bit of both.

But is he Indonesian, or Chinese, by birth. Not nationality. Ethnicity, I mean.

Does anyone know where his parents were from? I read that article again, it said they were from mainland china. What province, maybe city?

[DPL]

In November 1987, James Halladay the writer of the articlal stated quite clearly that the reason the art adopted Japanese trappings was in order to avoid negative publicity due to intolerance displayed towards Chinese by the Indonszns. There is no mention of illegal practice or laws.

So which is it? Was it outlawed, and so adopted Jaanese styling? Or was it just to "fit in" to avoid negative publicity?



I had never heard the 'outlawed' story until I began reading this forum. When I started with SD it was explained that it was a way to avoid antagonism, and my impression was always that it was more form than anything (i.e. as long as the d*** Chinese don't act too Chinese then it's okay.) That last bit could have been inferred by me, though.

To be completely frank coming from a Japanese style it was initially a bit odd to see CMA folks wearing gis. But it was explained as above and wasn't any kind of big deal at all.

I agree with JP in that it's probably the least important difference between SD and other CMA styles. Some of the more recent threads that have gone over similarities and differences of SD and other styles have been encouraging, rather than constantly going over all the same old cr@p again and again.

Does anyone have access to the original discussions about SD and the original posts where all these claims were made? Unfortunately I can't seem to search the archives back past mid-2000 to see those. They're referred to quite often, but there's no way to see who really said what, when all this started.

[Leto]

I don't know where in China the The family came from. One thing I can gather, is that at some point they must have been quite wealthy. This is based on a story GM The told of one of his great grandfathers in China, who had servants, and also happened to be an expert martial artist and master of pressure point striking. Also, the fact that they could afford to send two sons to a university in the US, (Sin The was originally going to go to school in Germany, but that fell through for some reaon), would indicate wealth.
I might presume that they lived in the southern areas of China, like Fujian, based on the dialect that seems to be used in some of the form names (like "Pai Hao" for white crane). Of course, that could have come from Ie Chang Ming or one of the other teachers.

maybe in Indonesia it was just way easier to get a hold of judogi, rather than some traditional old-style Chinese clothes. Heck, there's a picture of Hung I Hsiang, from Taiwan, wearing a Japanese gi in Robert Smith's "Masters and Methods" book. This tradition of wearing whatever is available probably carried over to Kentucky, too. The same reason they used Japanese style swords for dao, back in the day. There was no intenet back then...Where would you get Chinese style clothes and weapons in Kentucky in the 60's or 70's, or even 80's? Was there a China town in Lexington?

I would like to know more about the real history and origins of the style, too.

[kwaichang]

The traditional broad sword/tao looks more like a katana in shape than the current bs sold today. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Back for a quick question:

Anyone know what this style is? We have all these movements in short forms with minor variations. I know they're simple, but it's interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5vd-L2TZxo

[The Xia]

Back for a quick question:

Anyone know what this style is? We have all these movements in short forms with minor variations. I know they're simple, but it's interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5vd-L2TZxo
Lung Ying. The form is Sup Luk Dong (16 Moves).

[Judge Pen]

I've seen something similar. It's southern dragon.... nice stuff and stuff that you don't find that often.

[NastyHaggis]

For what it's worth, not everyone in this style wears Japanese Gi's. Our branch of schools (Elder Master Mullins in Tennessee) wear Chinese uniforms. No one mistakes us for a Japanese style at all.

[Shaolin Wookie]

The southern styles I've come across all have very similar hand motions to those practiced by SD, in my opinion. Especially in Southern Mantis(but then, I saw more of this firsthand than any other). They're not exactly the same, not at all, but the principles and movements of arms/hands are quite alike. If you threw an SD uniform on many southern stylists them and told them to relax and add more snap (hence the karate-libel SD gets) and be more fluid, it would pretty much be the same. Granted, there are small differences, but I honestly think silat and kuntao (primarily the former) may have had their influence on the way SD was taught pre-America. Certain styles are almost reciprocated word-for-word in SD: like Taizu (especially), Chaquan (Muslim longfist, I think--and Indonesia was heavily Muslim, if I remember correctly--but shortforms and this are so alike I think they're the same), some Southern Mantis, and many 5-animal styles. I had some time to check out this kuntao silat de thouars school in Roswell (I originally wrote them off as strange guys, but went back for "research" purposes to see the links between what I do and what other styles do). There are some notable similarities. If they had a better schedule, I might have stayed there (to cross-train), but I wound up cross-training in capoeira instead (which is loads of fun). Anyways, for those who think SD is kuntao or silat, it's not. It has much the same flavor, but it's quite different. The more I look at SD, I realize how unique it is. Sure, it gets ragged on here. But it has a little bit from many sources. Most of all, it draws from CMA, undoubtedly. Which CMA? Not sure, but probably older Shaolin--not the more "contemporary traditional". And the sparring principles remind me a lot of Bando. I saw a little of this from a Georgia State Student at the kuntao school, and apparently GSU offers Bando clinics on campus with full contact sparring (and Bando guys are seriously hardcore [if there's a knockout, the fight doesn't end, they drag him back to his corner, revive him, and send him back out, so you might see 3 knockouts before the fight's over. Good for killing brain cells, but not much more....hahahaha....) so I'll check those out when I start Grad School this September. They mentioned something about Bando forms....not quite sure what that means. I thought Bando was like Muay Thai, only Burmese. Didn't know there were any forms in either, outside a Wai Khru.

SD seems like the unique product of a melting pot history. Born in china, raised in Indonesia, forced to change and morph due to cultural pressures, transported to america, and personalized by Sin The, perhaps with a little more karate-like intent.

I've come to appreciate that. I think they package and sell it strangely, but hell, I've come to like it for what it is. Longfist--cool art, but not for me---just didn't sit in my stomach very well, except for weight transitioning drills.

BTW, capoeira is the only art I found in my lookabout that surpasses the conditioning rigors of SD. Combining the two--holy crap, man. It's tough.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I was looking at some SD site, or maybe Hiang's site, that mentioned Ground Dragon Boxing forms. Does anyone know if this is Earth Dragon (dog) boxing? And does SD teach it?

[Shaolin Wookie]

I went back and read some of the old posts on this thread never really did before, but I was bored. Apparently, a lot of people take exception to Shaolin-Do's contention that hinese Martial Arts were outlawed in Indonesia somewhere in the middle of hte century.

I have a bunch of old issues of Inside Kungfu Magazine that I bought featureing Grandmaster The when I was still in that style a long time ago wen it was cool to see your GM in a magazine back then. Shaolin -Do was in that magazine. In November 1987, James Halladay the writer of the articlal stated quite clearly that the reason the art adopted Japanese trappings was in order to avoid negative publicity due to intolerance displayed towards Chinese by the Indonszns. There is no mention of illegal practice or laws.

So which is it? Was it outlawed, and so adopted Jaanese styling? Or was it just to "fit in" to avoid negative publicity?

Another question: is Sin himself Chinese, or Indonesian, ethnically speaking?

Just curious. It's been a long time. If this isn't a touchy subject for you guys, i'm interested to know. Might settle a beef or two.

Hey, I think I saw that article online somewhere on an SD site. I might be wrong, but I think there was.

I'd buy the original off you if you'd be willing to sell it. How much you want?

hahaha......

But seriously, how much?

[ninthdrunk]

As far as I know SD only teaches one Ground Dragon form...that doesn't mean they aren't there, though. Ground Dragon seems to be one of the more advanced/demanding systems, and it would make sense that the forms don't get taught until much later. Or, it could be the case that this form is the only form from that system to carry over after the split.

I'm pretty dang sure it's a dragon system...never any mention of dog. (That'd be pretty odd to call a dog system Ground Dragon :p)

[Shaolin Wookie]

I know it might seem that way, but in Chinese martial arts, Dog Boxing is referred to as Earth Dragon style. I didn't know if perhaps Ground Dragon was a transliteration of Earth Dragon.

Just curious.

[tattooedmonk]

What's up?? Anyway I have noticed that no one that has said that SD is not real Shaolin has not come up with any definative proof to prove that it is not, why is this??

[Judge Pen]

What's up?? Anyway I have noticed that no one that has said that SD is not real Shaolin has not come up with any definative proof to prove that it is not, why is this??

Because, apparently, this is a debate of attrition. :D

[MasterKiller]

What's up?? Anyway I have noticed that no one that has said that SD is not real Shaolin has not come up with any definative proof to prove that it is not, why is this??

Didn't your momma ever tell you? The proof is in the pudding.

[Judge Pen]

Didn't your momma ever tell you? The proof is in the pudding.

My pudding tastes just fine.

[MasterKiller]

My pudding tastes just fine.

Wife making you taste your own pudding, JP? Should we start calling you "snowball"?

[Lamassu]

Wife making you taste your own pudding, JP? Should we start calling you "snowball"?

Where would this thread be without you MasterKiller? :D

[cjurakpt]

What's up?? Anyway I have noticed that no one that has said that SD is not real Shaolin has not come up with any definative proof to prove that it is not, why is this??

um, maybe because anyone who sees it knows that it's kenpo, because that's what it looks like, and because the stuff that's done by actual Shaolin practitioners looks totally different...

[tattooedmonk]

um, maybe because anyone who sees it knows that it's kenpo, because that's what it looks like, and because the stuff that's done by actual Shaolin practitioners looks totally different...Kenpo just means boxing in Japanese, just like Chuan Fa means boxing in Chinese. What is your point?? I admit that SD has a "Japanese" look and feel but this still does not mean that it is not Shaolin. The forms are the same. Just because they are not as pretty does not make them any less Shaolin or Chinese either. More of the fluidity comes through time and effort( real kung fu) and something you see after many years of practice not something that is a major focus at the beginning and intermediate levels. I think that too much emphasis is put on looking at the finger that is pointing at the moon rather than the moon . Most of what you see as Shaolin is superficial. The intent and effect is the same. You ,like most people, are caught up in the non-intrinsic aspects.

[tattooedmonk]

Where would this thread be without you MasterKiller? :D Good question!

[tattooedmonk]

Because, apparently, this is a debate of attrition. :D Right you are. For the record I like my pudding too!!

[kwaichang]

Quote : um, maybe because anyone who sees it knows that it's kenpo, because that's what it looks like, and because the stuff that's done by actual Shaolin practitioners looks totally different... This coming from a PT that should be able to back up what he says with definitive studies or proof. As the original poster said the proof is in the pudding and none have shown any pudding. KC

[Fu-Pow]

I haven't posted on this thread in like 2 years but every 2 years or so I have to pop in and say....

...yeah and Shaolin-Do sucks!
















Please continue with your regular scheduled programming;):rolleyes::D

[cjurakpt]

Quote : um, maybe because anyone who sees it knows that it's kenpo, because that's what it looks like, and because the stuff that's done by actual Shaolin practitioners looks totally different... This coming from a PT that should be able to back up what he says with definitive studies or proof. As the original poster said the proof is in the pudding and none have shown any pudding. KC

well, I saw the youtube postings of what the USSD gues demo'd when they went to Shaolin temple; in my personal opinion, what the USSD guys demo'd were a bunch of patchwork forms forms that to the uninformed would look like kung fu, but to anyone with experience in TCMA lack characteristics of pattern, flow, progression and play and which completely lacked the so-called inner essence that tatooed monk is always harping about

BTW, as far as "definitive studies or proof", if there are any randomized double blind clinical trials related to the topic, I'd be happy to reference them, but until then, anything anyone says on the topic is basically anecdotal opinion, mine included; sorry to say, this is not about physical therapy (because if it were, then I'd be happy to provide you with enough research data on a given topic to choke a moose) so you may not like it, you can certainly argue against it, but I would say that the burden of proof is on those making the claims, and at this point the "evidence" presented is lacking

[brucereiter]

I haven't posted on this thread in like 2 years but every 2 years or so I have to pop in and say....

...yeah and Shaolin-Do sucks!
Please continue with your regular scheduled programming;):rolleyes::D

i am going to be in seattle on sunday ...
:-) pm me if you would like to meet up for some push hands with a shaolin do student.
then you can see first hand the suck lol :-) i always enjoy meeting with skilled martial artists.

best,

bruce

[cjurakpt]

Kenpo just means boxing in Japanese, just like Chuan Fa means boxing in Chinese. What is your point??
I don't really know what this has to do with anything - so they both translate as "fist technique" - what is your point?

I admit that SD has a "Japanese" look and feel but this still does not mean that it is not Shaolin. The forms are the same. Just because they are not as pretty does not make them any less Shaolin or Chinese either.
I wouldn't say that SD has a "Japanese" flavor to it - what they do is noting like classical bugei (sp?) arts - which actually have nothing to do with Siu Lum either (I'm not talking about the Okinawan based arts, obviously most of those are rooted in TCMA) ; and forget pretty - that's an arbitrary qualification; they lack the intrinsic essence of what comprises Siu Lum and other TCMA arts

More of the fluidity comes through time and effort( real kung fu) and something you see after many years of practice not something that is a major focus at the beginning and intermediate levels. I think that too much emphasis is put on looking at the finger that is pointing at the moon rather than the moon . Most of what you see as Shaolin is superficial. The intent and effect is the same. You ,like most people, are caught up in the non-intrinsic aspects.
that's one heck of an assumption - how do you know what I am actually basing my critique on? as I said, they not only don't look the same outwardly, inwardly the are empty: it doesn't work to just arbitrarily string techniques together to make it look like TCMA: the whole continuity of the form is like a piece of music arranged in that order for very specific purposes; Siu Lum masters, having their roots in yogic practice and later intertwined it with taoist practice, structured forms not only for fighting but for health; meaning that the order of the moves is often relevent to specific meridian flow patterns - there's you inner essence - change that around or even practice it without knowing why you are doing it in the order you are doing it and you loose that aspect; let's ask anyone at USSD if they understand how the Siu Lum forms they practice work with meridian flow and let's see what kind of an answer they come up with - if they can articulate it along those lines then I will be the first take back what I said and apologize.

[tattooedmonk]

I don't really know what this has to do with anything - so they both translate as "fist technique" - what is your point?


I wouldn't say that SD has a "Japanese" flavor to it - what they do is noting like classical bugei (sp?) arts - which actually have nothing to do with Siu Lum either (I'm not talking about the Okinawan based arts, obviously most of those are rooted in TCMA) ; and forget pretty - that's an arbitrary qualification; they lack the intrinsic essence of what comprises Siu Lum and other TCMA arts


that's one heck of an assumption - how do you know what I am actually basing my critique on? as I said, they not only don't look the same outwardly, inwardly the are empty: it doesn't work to just arbitrarily string techniques together to make it look like TCMA: the whole continuity of the form is like a piece of music arranged in that order for very specific purposes; Siu Lum masters, having their roots in yogic practice and later intertwined it with taoist practice, structured forms not only for fighting but for health; meaning that the order of the moves is often relevent to specific meridian flow patterns - there's you inner essence - change that around or even practice it without knowing why you are doing it in the order you are doing it and you loose that aspect; let's ask anyone at USSD if they understand how the Siu Lum forms they practice work with meridian flow and let's see what kind of an answer they come up with - if they can articulate it along those lines then I will be the first take back what I said and apologize.

My point is that kenpo and chuan fa are just a names and whether you use one or the other really means nothing to me in the greater picture .

If you want to get into a battle about symantics then that is something different.

So what do you base your opinions on?? Are you a black belt at least in SD, or higher, to say whether it is all that you say it is, more or less??

We are not talking about USSD we are talking about Shaolin Do.

As for Qi , meridins, pressure points , flow, root, etc. SD goes into great detail and lengths about these areas of CMA.

By the way, I agree with you about USSD.

[tattooedmonk]

well, I saw the youtube postings of what the USSD gues demo'd when they went to Shaolin temple; in my personal opinion, what the USSD guys demo'd were a bunch of patchwork forms forms that to the uninformed would look like kung fu, but to anyone with experience in TCMA lack characteristics of pattern, flow, progression and play and which completely lacked the so-called inner essence that tatooed monk is always harping about

BTW, as far as "definitive studies or proof", if there are any randomized double blind clinical trials related to the topic, I'd be happy to reference them, but until then, anything anyone says on the topic is basically anecdotal opinion, mine included; sorry to say, this is not about physical therapy (because if it were, then I'd be happy to provide you with enough research data on a given topic to choke a moose) so you may not like it, you can certainly argue against it, but I would say that the burden of proof is on those making the claims, and at this point the "evidence" presented is lacking This is not USSD thread, this isthe Shaolin Do thread.

[tattooedmonk]

I haven't posted on this thread in like 2 years but every 2 years or so I have to pop in and say....

...yeah and Shaolin-Do sucks!
















Please continue with your regular scheduled programming;):rolleyes::D How so?? What are you using as evidence to back up this statement??

[tattooedmonk]

i am going to be in seattle on sunday ...
:-) pm me if you would like to meet up for some push hands with a shaolin do student.
then you can see first hand the suck lol :-) i always enjoy meeting with skilled martial artists.

best,

bruce
I would pay money to see this!!

[cjurakpt]

ok - let me first clarify my initial error - I mistakenly, as tatooed monk correctly points out, was posting as if this was a USSD thread - I think with about 4 or 5 threads about USSD dfloating around in the Shaolin area, I got onto this one and equated Shaolin Do to USSD - maybe with the USSD and SD abbreviations I got confused?

so, let me retract anything in regards to Shaolin Do specifically, because I have no idea about it all, I've never seen it, I don't know what they do (although from checking some of their websites I know that they wear gi's and that the GM had some sort of hirsutism issues), and that's that

as such, my comments were totally directed towards USSD, hence the use of the kenpo term and whatnot; and we seem to agree on that issue

apologies for the confusion

[tattooedmonk]

ok - let me first clarify my initial error - I mistakenly, as tatooed monk correctly points out, was posting as if this was a USSD thread - I think with about 4 or 5 threads about USSD dfloating around in the Shaolin area, I got onto this one and equated Shaolin Do to USSD - maybe with the USSD and SD abbreviations I got confused?

so, let me retract anything in regards to Shaolin Do specifically, because I have no idea about it all, I've never seen it, I don't know what they do (although from checking some of their websites I know that they wear gi's and that the GM had some sort of hirsutism issues), and that's that

as such, my comments were totally directed towards USSD, hence the use of the kenpo term and whatnot; and we seem to agree on that issue

apologies for the confusion Thank you. As for the hirsutism issues, I agree. Great word by the way. This could apply to him and Su Kong Tai Djin. HAHAHAHAHAHa
No offense to anyone who can not take this as a joke and will take personal offense to the post.

[cjurakpt]

Thank you. As for the hirsutism issues, I agree. Great word by the way. This could apply to him and Su Kong Tai Djin. HAHAHAHAHAHa
No offense to anyone who can not take this as a joke and will take personal offense to the post.

actually Su Kong Tai Djin was the person to whom I was referring; no one else seemed to have any particular tonsorial concerns...

[tattooedmonk]

actually Su Kong Tai Djin was the person to whom I was referring; no one else seemed to have any particular tonsorial concerns... What about Master Sin?:D He definately needs one!!!Yet again another great word.

[Fu-Pow]

Shaolindoiscool and tatooed monk....

simmer down guys it was a joke. I think this whole thread is retarded.

Would meet up with you on Sunday but I've already got my whole weekend mapped out.

Take care,

FP

[Judge Pen]

Wife making you taste your own pudding, JP? Should we start calling you "snowball"?

Nah, I was just taking your mom's word. She thinks my pudding tastes greeeat! :D

[Judge Pen]

i am going to be in seattle on sunday ...
:-) pm me if you would like to meet up for some push hands with a shaolin do student.
then you can see first hand the suck lol :-) i always enjoy meeting with skilled martial artists.

best,

bruce

Fu Pow,

Shaolindoiscool knows your comment was a joke. He's not doing an internet challenge, but he really likes crossing hands with as many different people as he can.

I'd take him up on this Fu Pow. Bruce is very humble and respectful. And he's not bad at push hands.

[brucereiter]

Shaolindoiscool and tatooed monk....

simmer down guys it was a joke. I think this whole thread is retarded.

Would meet up with you on Sunday but I've already got my whole weekend mapped out.

Take care,

FP

maybe next time ... i pass through every few months ... :-)

[BlueTravesty]

The traditional broad sword/tao looks more like a katana in shape than the current bs sold today. KC

The Willow Leaf Saber (http://www.shaolinwushu.be/images/willow-leaf.jpg) (which I can only assume is what you mean by "traditional") was indeed the main saber in use throughout most of the Ming Dynasty. It featured a narrow blade that had the same superficial SHAPE as a katana (though most were a bit broader and lighter, being designed for use in one hand.)

The current archetype for Chinese Style Single-edged swords (dao/tao) is based upon an actual historical type called the Oxtail Saber (niuwei dao.) This type of saber was in vogue throughout the the later Qing dynasty. This site has a very good example of an actual Oxtail saber a little bit further down http://www.northernwu.com/Swordgrp.htm There was also an issue of Kungfu Magazine :D on this as well. Scott Rodell is currently the leader of the pack when it comes to research on historical Dao/Tao in English.

If by BS you mean "not suitable for combat" then yes, the great majority of Dao/Tao being sold today would be BS. But the shape of the blade is not BS at all. The main reason the Oxtail model is so popular in today's CMA schools is due to the fact that Most of the popular CMA's today were either created, or were popularized during the later Qing Dynasty. While we all like to fantasize about styles and traditions that go back 1500 years etc etc ad nauseum, Chinese Martial Arts have always adapted to trends and advancements in weapons-making. Hence why the Chinese used swords, sabers and spears instead of throwing rocks and pointy sticks. This is also why they use guns, tanks and such instead swords sabers and spears today.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I always thought the Chinese broadsword looked more like a machete than anything else.

[NJM]

I always thought the Chinese broadsword looked more like a machete than anything else.

I thought machetes were much thinner.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Depends on the kind of bush your machete-ing.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Sorry, I just always thought it sounded cool in the movies when someone refers to the jungle as "bush."

I.E.: Predator

"I've seen some badass bush in my days, but nothin' like this...."

[Shaolin Wookie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pDc7ocvdv4

Does anyone know what this Zhao Jia kung fu is? I keep seeing it referred to as Chow Gar, but I thought Chow Gar was Southern Mantis....

I recognize many likenesses between SD and this. I know I say that about a lot of things....and I think SD is kind of a multicultural mishmash of styles based on some kind of Chinese kung fu...something very much like this. The forms, in movements, manners, and tempo, remind me of this Zhao Jia.....(not so much in this clip, but in related ones I'm too lazy to link to).

Just curious. Puttin' it out there for more edumacted folks than myself on this subject.

Friggin' cool style, though.

[BentMonk]

Not bad. They get extra points for jammin' to Linkin Park while they demo. :D

[Shaolin Wookie]

Had I only started so young.....

[cjurakpt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pDc7ocvdv4

Does anyone know what this Zhao Jia kung fu is? I keep seeing it referred to as Chow Gar, but I thought Chow Gar was Southern Mantis....
.

it looks like Jow Ga (Chow) which is a pretty "standard" southern style, very similar to CLF, Hung Kyuhn and others - I think that there is a big school in DC or Maryland (Derric Mims?); there's a school up here in NYC I have heard of that is a bit low key, I knew some guy who had been with them for a few decades;

I think the So Mantis you are talking about is Chu Ga?

[Shaolin Wookie]

That's interesting. I have been trying to find parallels for what's studied in Shaolin-Do, based on the structure of the forms, their tempo, rhythm and technique. I've always thought CLF was a striking parallel, forms wise. Now, for striking, technique.....waaay different. Lots of winding, circular strikes. But the sheer variety of styles in the system, and such, and the way the forms move--SD has many like features.

I'm not trying to solve the Shaolin-Do riddle. Part of me thinks it's authentic, the other part thinks it's modified, or a generic mishmash. I just occasionally like to see where styles like it came from, where and when they were developed, and how they've evolved.

[Crushing Fist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pDc7ocvdv4


I recognize many likenesses between SD and this.

The forms, in movements, manners, and tempo, remind me of this Zhao Jia.....(not so much in this clip, but in related ones I'm too lazy to link to).


In that clip, the clearest similarity to a form I've seen in SD is Tiger/Crane.

Stop being lazy, post some more links... and come to a Norcross Wednesday Brown Belt class already.

[cjurakpt]

That's interesting. I have been trying to find parallels for what's studied in Shaolin-Do, based on the structure of the forms, their tempo, rhythm and technique. I've always thought CLF was a striking parallel, forms wise. Now, for striking, technique.....waaay different. Lots of winding, circular strikes. But the sheer variety of styles in the system, and such, and the way the forms move--SD has many like features.

I'm not trying to solve the Shaolin-Do riddle. Part of me thinks it's authentic, the other part thinks it's modified, or a generic mishmash. I just occasionally like to see where styles like it came from, where and when they were developed, and how they've evolved.

CLF is a hybrid system incorporating long arm northern strikes & kicks and southern short hand stuff, so it has both linear and circular stuff; Jow Ga has probably less of the circular striking, but shares many of the same techniques, as far as I can tell; as for SD, I have no idea about it, where it came from, etc. or what it looks like so I am unable to make any comparisons

[sean_stonehart]

That's interesting. I have been trying to find parallels for what's studied in Shaolin-Do, based on the structure of the forms, their tempo, rhythm and technique. I've always thought CLF was a striking parallel, forms wise. Now, for striking, technique.....waaay different. Lots of winding, circular strikes. But the sheer variety of styles in the system, and such, and the way the forms move--SD has many like features.

I'm not trying to solve the Shaolin-Do riddle. Part of me thinks it's authentic, the other part thinks it's modified, or a generic mishmash. I just occasionally like to see where styles like it came from, where and when they were developed, and how they've evolved.

No dude... trust me.

The honest simularites shared by CLF & SD is that both use hands to hit, feet to kick. That's about as far as that dance goes.

[sunfist]

and so, to conclude the thread, the answer is no:D

[Lamassu]

and so, to conclude the thread, the answer is no:D

This thread will never end; nor should it. :)

[cjurakpt]

This thread will never end; nor should it. :)

this is the thread that never ends
it just goes on and on my friends
some people started posting here not knowing what it was
and they'll continue posting here forever just because...
(repeat from beginning)

1,000 samolians to the geek that knows where this comes from...

[tattooedmonk]

and so, to conclude the thread, the answer is no:DWhat do you know about SD?? Do you have a high rank in it, have you practiced it for a long period of time ,have you been to advanced black belt seminars?? How many forms do you know??

[tattooedmonk]

No dude... trust me.

The honest simularites shared by CLF & SD is that both use hands to hit, feet to kick. That's about as far as that dance goes.Actually CLF is part of SD from what I have heard. I understand that EML has most of the whole system taught to him by GMT. SD is more like any CMA and kung fu than most of you might realize. You will never know until you are on the inside and on the receiving end of an @$$whipping. You all focus on the non intrinsic aspects , which really sucks for you. By the way I have material up to sixth , so it is probably taught around 7th or 8th, if it is true

[sean_stonehart]

Wow... and you believe that...

Tell you what... why not do two things...

1) Ask where the 5 Animal form comes from at your 4th to 5th degree.
2) Go watch a CLF class with Ng Fu Han or other CLF players in LA & come back & tell us honestly where you see CLF anywhere in SD.

[djcaldwell]

Actually CLF is part of SD from what I have heard. I understand that EML has most of the whole system taught to him by GMT.

From the brief stuff that I have seen and I don't know anything other than what I have seen with my own eyes - it does not have any attributes of CLF...sorry.

SD is more like any CMA and kung fu than most of you might realize.

Dude, figuratively speaking you are staning in a room of Chinese Martial Artists and saying tht it is more like CMA than they realize? It's like standing in the doctors office and arguing that your symptoms are more like some exotic disease when he's telling you that you have a simple cold.

You will never know until you are on the inside and on the receiving end of an @$$whipping.

This is customarily the last resort argument from one on the loosing end of it. Basically a WHATEVER...statement.

You all focus on the non intrinsic aspects , which really sucks for you. By the way I have material up to sixth , so it is probably taught around 7th or 8th, if it is true

Here is where I find amusement and what made me really post after lurking on this thread for a while. You argue it's validity and content and endorse the fact that it certainly has CMA or excuse me specifically "shaolin" attributes. I think you are mistaking techniques and what not that may have been "influenced" or poorly mimiced for actual integration of specific techniques and executions.

There is no argument from me that you can adopt a technique from another system and integrate it - big ups that's great. However, when techniques are integrated they are usually done the way they are from the other style or **** near close to it. Nothing I have seen looks or moves like CMA - it looks and moves like Karate / Kempo - I have 2 black belt Kemp stylists in my family - I know what that looks like.

Finally, the point I was getting at is you are professing the validity of these techniques and teachings but state that you have material up to the 6th but the "CMA Stuff" is introduced in the 7th or 8th - COME ON!!!

I'm not knocking the system - I don't know it and don't care about it but if your going to make statments like this and debate the point so adamently then at least have some 1st hand knowledge of what you are saying. Basically you just said = It's there! I haven't seen it yet myself... but I'm telling you it's there.

[tattooedmonk]

Wow... and you believe that...

Tell you what... why not do two things...

1) Ask where the 5 Animal form comes from at your 4th to 5th degree.
2) Go watch a CLF class with Ng Fu Han or other CLF players in LA & come back & tell us honestly where you see CLF anywhere in SD.I have and it does.

[sean_stonehart]

I have and it does.

Ok... then please describe the different gings from CLF you see in SD by technique & expression.

This should be simple if your beliefs are correct.

[tattooedmonk]

From the brief stuff that I have seen and I don't know anything other than what I have seen with my own eyes - it does not have any attributes of CLF...sorry.



Dude, figuratively speaking you are staning in a room of Chinese Martial Artists and saying tht it is more like CMA than they realize? It's like standing in the doctors office and arguing that your symptoms are more like some exotic disease when he's telling you that you have a simple cold.



This is customarily the last resort argument from one on the loosing end of it. Basically a WHATEVER...statement.



Here is where I find amusement and what made me really post after lurking on this thread for a while. You argue it's validity and content and endorse the fact that it certainly has CMA or excuse me specifically "shaolin" attributes. I think you are mistaking techniques and what not that may have been "influenced" or poorly mimiced for actual integration of specific techniques and executions.

There is no argument from me that you can adopt a technique from another system and integrate it - big ups that's great. However, when techniques are integrated they are usually done the way they are from the other style or **** near close to it. Nothing I have seen looks or moves like CMA - it looks and moves like Karate / Kempo - I have 2 black belt Kemp stylists in my family - I know what that looks like.

Finally, the point I was getting at is you are professing the validity of these techniques and teachings but state that you have material up to the 6th but the "CMA Stuff" is introduced in the 7th or 8th - COME ON!!!

I'm not knocking the system - I don't know it and don't care about it but if your going to make statments like this and debate the point so adamently then at least have some 1st hand knowledge of what you are saying. Basically you just said = It's there! I haven't seen it yet myself... but I'm telling you it's there. 1. If you have not seen much and do not know anything about it, then you might as well have seen nothing and obviously know nothing about which you are talking about....sorry.

2. I am standing in a room with a bunch of people that think they know what CMA is . So, in that case I am standing in a room with a bunch of quack doctors.

3. And what is Kenpo / kempo anyway?

4. As for the @$$ whipping part ,I am refering to the same techniques that are in the same forms taught in SD and other CMA /Kung Fu Schools , and how they are applied.

5. Last but not least I did not say that CMA was taught at 7th or 8th I said that CLF was. Learn how to read and comprehend.

Save your lecture for someone that does not know what you are talking about , then you might find someone who will think that what you have to say has any merit!:D

[MasterKiller]

DJ,
It's like trying to discuss Scientology with Tom Cruise...

[tattooedmonk]

Ok... then please describe the different gings from CLF you see in SD by technique & expression.

This should be simple if your beliefs are correct.These are the ones I know.

Peng Jing (Pushing Power)
Peng is the very basic "power". It is the ability to transmit power, strength, energy, etc, thru an "extremity" (one of the 7 stars : head, shoulders, elbows, hands, hips, knees, feet).

Ding Jing (Listening Power)
Peng is considered also as the audible energy because it is through peng that one can listen to the opponent's body. As the student develops the core peng strength, work is begun on building a good connection and communication between student and opponent. Through the aid of practice to increase sensitivity, the student can precisely detect the opponent's power, center of gravity, direction, pressure, etc., as if actually hearing the vibrations. Understanding Power (Dong Jing) motivation, one can continue developing and advancing listening ability to the stage of under standing power. In other words, the mind becomes able to analyze and measure the pressure, direction character, speed, force, etc., of the opponent's movements in order to be able to cope with them properly. In most chinese martial arts this Power is trained thru Tuishou (pushing-hand) drills (f.e. called Chi sao inwingchun).

Zang Lian Jing (Sticking Power)
Through Rolling Hands Practice, Pushing Hands Practice, and practice in reversing the transfer of power process, the student develops the sensitivity and controlling ability known as sticking power. In other words, the student should be able to stick with an opponent in order to control him, attack, or defeat his attack. Usually with the initial contact between two people in a free-style fighting situation, the student can use peng to sense the opponent's hand (with advanced students the sensitivity will encompass the entire body) and there is an almost magnetic feeling. That is, the opponent feels as if he were stuck to the student almost like chewing gum can stick to the body. The special application of sticking power is the slowing of an opponent's speed and also the redirection of any kind of energy emitted by the opponent (a straight push get deflected without any apparent reason. This Power is also involved in the "unpushable man" trick).

Zuo Jing (Following Power)
By combining all of the previously described types of power, one can advance one's ability further and develop following power. This type of power allows the student to follow the direction of the opponent in all situations and respond accordingly.

Hua Jing (Neutralizing Power)
With neutralizing power the student is able to guide their following power in a yielding manner, in order to counterbalance or make ineffective the attacking and defending ability of an opponent.

Ce Jing (Borrowing Power)
Through borrowing power, the student is able to utilize an opponent's power by adapting it to purposes that are beneficial to the student's own designs. When an opponent attacks with, say, ten pounds of force, the student not only neutralizes (yields) but also borrows that force into his foot and reflects it back to the opponent, often at such an angle that the opponent is tossed away by largely his own power. In Luohan Quan this power is used at "An Jing" level for every move that appear as a block at "Ming Jing" level.

Ying Jing (Drawing-up Power)
Should an opponent refuse to transfer power, the student is in the situation of having no power to borrow from. In such a situation it is up to the student to cause the attacker to yield his power so that it can be utilized for reflection back to the opponent. This process is known as drawing-up power from an opponent. A lot of this may just be psychology and reflex.

Di Jing (Uprooting Power)
The ability to cause an opponent to bounce backward and upward, thereby making him lose his root to the ground, is known as uprooting power. When used in a more moderate fashion, i.e., by keeping peng in an upward direction to the opponent's center, this power will cause him to float. In Luohan Quan this power is used to prepare counterattacks and throws, usually combining the power of the arms with the power of the stance / hips.

Chen Jing (Sinking Power)
By reversing the practice of uprooting power the student is able to develop the ability to sink using it against an attempt to uproot him. Success in sinking power development can cause one's opponent to feel that it is impossible to uproot the student. The relaxed, connected body is the source of this.

Na Jing (Controlling Power)
Controlling power is applied during Rolling Hands practice or Free Hand practice. The student will try different methods to take over control of the situation and eventually lock the opponent into a position which will defeat him. The constant and skillful use of peng and connection are what power this skill. In Luohan Quan we all call this power the "trapping power" as it allows to lead the opponent in a way / posture that is uncomfortable and unstable.

Kai Jing (Open-up Power)
This is the application of internal power in such a manner as to cause an opponent who has maintained a defensive position for an extended period of time to open up his defenses and thus be defeated. Psychology and reflex in relation to the opponent are vital for this.

He Jing (Close-up Power)
In this case the student directs his internal power inward in such a manner as to cause an opponent to react by closing-up toward his center as a means of defense. In the process of closing-up, it is possible to trap the opponent because he is so drawn in toward his balance point that there is no way that he can move outward; thus the student is able to control the situation and defeat him. This is the perfect power to use against a bully opponent, attracting him to a "unprotected" area and then let him crash against a hard part of your body (knee, elbow, shoulder, ...)

Po Jing (Deflecting Power)
This is a specialized development of internal power. In applying deflecting power the practitioner is able to bounce an attacker to the side, or divert his force, to bring the student out of danger. Here the skill of controlling not only your own peng but the opponent's force vector (whether he uses peng or not) is critical.

Zhou Jing (Rubbing Power)
This transfer of power is achieved through a rubbing motion of the hands or other parts of the body. The motion used is similar to that of rubbing clay between the palms to form a long rope or coil. Often, qinna are applied with this for attacking opponent's muscles.

Fa Jing (Exploding Power)
This transfer of power is achieved through a burst of energy, releasing power suddendly and "overloading" the opponent. At "ming jing" level, this power is used for every "attacking" moves of Luohan Quan.

Ce Jing (Twisting Power)
When applying internal power in this manner, the student twists an opponent in an action similar to that of wringing out a wash cloth. This type of power is used to lock an opponent into a position where he can be easily defeated or just keep it secured. The internal version of this well known move different in that it relies on physical law rather than muscle power.

Zhuan Jing (Spiral Power)
Because of this screwing motion, this type of power transfer is sometimes referred to as screwing power. It is the base of Chan si Jing (silk reiling power)Mainly use in Baguazhang this power is used in every turning move of Luohan Quan, transforming a possibly weak posture into an even more powerful motion. Of course a good grounding and lower body strength is required.

Ci Jing (Cutting Power) or Heng Jing (Crossing Power)
This type of power transfer, is a clean, sharp cutting type of motion which is applied to an opponent from the side in order to disable or interrupt an attack. Used with Zhuan Jing this can produce extremely powerful moves which can inflict heavy damages.

Duan Jing (Interrupting Power)
Interrupting power usually refers to the skill of "leaving the jing in the opponent.... mainly so no return which borrows" your power can be used. This skill is very hard to train and requires a very trained mind.

Cun Jing (Inch Power)
Sometimes called short-power.... the ability to release great power with very little motion. The most famous martial artist using this power is of course Bruce Lee (the famous one inch punch), to achieve the maximum power, Zhuan Jing, Fa Jing and Ying Jing are required.


Zuo Te Jing (Folding Power)
Folding power usually implies the skill of folding the body and hitting with the closest body part, using fa jing. For instance, if an opponent holds your wrist, hit him with Elbow using fa jing or cun jing; if he holds your elbow, hit him with shoulder (Kao) or hip, etc.

[tattooedmonk]

DJ,
It's like trying to discuss Scientology with Tom Cruise... So , once again you avoid my questions. What do you know of SD?? Do you have a ranking above black belt in the system ???Do you attend classes regularly?? Have you attended any advanced black belt seminars??If not how do you know what you are talking about??

[djcaldwell]

DJ,
It's like trying to discuss Scientology with Tom Cruise...

LOL!

I wonder if they have the "special chair" in the back room.

[sean_stonehart]

These are the ones I know.

jings

....snipped...

That's a great cut & paste for taiji jings, but that's not what I asked about. I asked about the CLF gings.

How about a simpler question... which of the CLF bagua hand sets taught in SD since SD encompasses CLF??

Also could you give me a heads up on noi lim sao? I'm trying to make it work & it's just not there yet...

[sean_stonehart]

I have and it does.


You have what??

It does what??

These answers are a little vague.

[djcaldwell]

Defensive Much?

1. If you have not seen much and do not know anything about it, then you might as well have seen nothing and obviously know nothing about which you are talking about....sorry.


I've been a CMA stylist for 18 years - I know when I see it.


4. As for the @$$ whipping part ,I am refering to the same techniques that are in the same forms taught in SD and other CMA /Kung Fu Schools , and how they are applied.

Oh so you mean that you punch and kick - so does my 3 year old and with about the same technique that I've seen from SD. There are similar techniques in Karate but you don't see them saying it's CMA because IT'S NOT. Boxers jab and cross - Thai throws round houses, front kicks but they don't call it CMA and SD does something but they call it CMA - go figure - don't be a poser - be proud of who you are!

5. Last but not least I did not say that CMA was taught at 7th or 8th I said that CLF was. Learn how to read and comprehend.

You debate about as good as the BFP guys. With as comprehensive as system as CLF is - and the techniques contained within - for a system that claims to be the most complete (per their website) why would CLF not be introduced until so late.

Obviously the voltage was pretty high in the SD Brainwave Chair. You're not going to ever understand what anyone here has to say as you have this vision of what it is you are or have learned and I understand it's difficult to come to the realization that all your years of "shaolin" training is...well...not.


How about a simpler question... which of the CLF bagua hand sets taught in SD since SD encompasses CLF??


He can't do this because he's only at 6th CLF isn't introduced until the 7th ask him again next year when this thread reaches 1000 pages.

[Lamassu]

You have what??

It does what??

These answers are a little vague.

I'm confused, what's this latest pi$$ing contest about again? :confused:

[sean_stonehart]

I'm confused, what's this latest pi$$ing contest about again? :confused:

I've actually not wet my pants or anybody else's...

I'm just asking questions. Simple ones really.

[tattooedmonk]

Defensive Much?



I've been a CMA stylist for 18 years - I know when I see it.




Oh so you mean that you punch and kick - so does my 3 year old and with about the same technique that I've seen from SD. There are similar techniques in Karate but you don't see them saying it's CMA because IT'S NOT. Boxers jab and cross - Thai throws round houses, front kicks but they don't call it CMA and SD does something but they call it CMA - go figure - don't be a poser - be proud of who you are!



You debate about as good as the BFP guys. With as comprehensive as system as CLF is - and the techniques contained within - for a system that claims to be the most complete (per their website) why would CLF not be introduced until so late.

Obviously the voltage was pretty high in the SD Brainwave Chair. You're not going to ever understand what anyone here has to say as you have this vision of what it is you are or have learned and I understand it's difficult to come to the realization that all your years of "shaolin" training is...well...not.




He can't do this because he's only at 6th CLF isn't introduced until the 7th ask him again next year when this thread reaches 1000 pages.1. So what have you seen of SD that makes you come to these conclusions??
2. Not just punches and kicks . the stances ,the movements, the distributions of weight , energy, etc.
3. Because at that level you get complete systems to master. CLF is Just one available system to master.

So what is your definintion of CMA then??

And for your petty little insults...whatever.

By the way I did not say I was sixth, I said I have learned all the material up to sixth. What is wrong wth your reading and comprehension skills??

[Judge Pen]

Actually CLF is part of SD from what I have heard. I understand that EML has most of the whole system taught to him by GMT. SD is more like any CMA and kung fu than most of you might realize. You will never know until you are on the inside and on the receiving end of an @$$whipping. You all focus on the non intrinsic aspects , which really sucks for you. By the way I have material up to sixth , so it is probably taught around 7th or 8th, if it is true

I have never heard that. I think that Sean has a bit of perspective on both SD and CLF, so I'll leave that topic to those that know more than me.

[tattooedmonk]

That's a great cut & paste for taiji jings, but that's not what I asked about. I asked about the CLF gings.

How about a simpler question... which of the CLF bagua hand sets taught in SD since SD encompasses CLF??

Also could you give me a heads up on noi lim sao? I'm trying to make it work & it's just not there yet... What are the names of these GINGS? I might know them under different names for emitting energy than you do but the actions and the energies are the same, if not similar??

[tattooedmonk]

I have never heard that. I think that Sean has a bit of perspective on both SD and CLF, so I'll leave that topic to those that know more than me.
Like I said it is just what I heard. I do not know if it is true or not, because at that level the material is taught in secret and is not advertised. But I have some reliable sources.;)

And he( sean) said that he knew nothing about SD except for that which he had seen , which as he admitted, was very little.

[tattooedmonk]

I'm confused, what's this latest pi$$ing contest about again? :confused: Well it seems that some CLF guys, after their extensive study into SD, **rolls eyes** have come to the conclusion that it is not CMA and doe not have any similarities to CLF. Same $h!t as usual.

[sean_stonehart]

What are the names of these GINGS? I might know them under different names for emitting energy than you do but the actions and the energies are the same, if not similar??

You know them or you don't. I'm not here to educate you on something you don't know. Based on the cut & paste job from the taiji jings, that speaks volumes on its own.

You still haven't answered me on the 5 Animal set, Bagua sets or noi lim sao. When you reached 5th, did you get special classes question aversion?

[tattooedmonk]

After studying SD for over 15 years, studying CLF under Doc Fei Wong for the last 6 months, as well as many other reputable CMA masters I have come to the conclusion that yes SD is real Shaolin , although it has been modified and adapted for modern day usage. I admit that it has less of a "Chinese" feel to it than other syles I have done, but I would say that a few of the reasons for this are because of the large body of material that is taught and the amount of time that you have to learn it in , as well as the Indonesia importation factor.

[sean_stonehart]

Like I said it is just what I heard. I do not know if it is true or not, because at that level the material is taught in secret and is not advertised. But I have some reliable sources.;)

Heresay... right. Reliable sources.

Could your reliable sources tell you if the 5 Body Shape sets of CLF is taught in SD?


And he( sean) said that he knew nothing about SD except for that which he had seen , which as he admitted, was very little.

Guess you missed lessons in humility too. I earned my 2nd degree in SD before I left.

[sean_stonehart]

After studying SD for over 15 years, studying CLF under Doc Fei Wong for the last 6 months, as well as many other reputable CMA masters I have come to the conclusion that yes SD is real Shaolin , although it has been modified and adapted for modern day usage. I admit that it has less of a "Chinese" feel to it than other syles I have done, but I would say that a few of the reasons for this are because of the large body of material that is taught and the amount of time that you have to learn it in , as well as the Indonesia importation factor.

Ohhh.... so now you study CLF under GM Wong?? Were you in NoCal last month?? My sifu apparently missed you. Since we're CLF relatives now, why don't you PM me your name??

[sean_stonehart]

Well it seems that some CLF guys, after their extensive study into SD, **rolls eyes** have come to the conclusion that it is not CMA and doe not have any similarities to CLF. Same $h!t as usual.


Right except some of us do have SD training & more insight on things than you know.

[tattooedmonk]

You know them or you don't. I'm not here to educate you on something you don't know. Based on the cut & paste job from the taiji jings, that speaks volumes on its own.

You still haven't answered me on the 5 Animal set, Bagua sets or noi lim sao. When you reached 5th, did you get special classes question aversion? I cut them from my blog. What about the five animal set?? what about the bagua sets?

[tattooedmonk]

Heresay... right. Reliable sources.

Could your reliable sources tell you if the 5 Body Shape sets of CLF is taught in SD?



Guess you missed lessons in humility too. I earned my 2nd degree in SD before I left. Yes, it is heresay and I said that from the beginning, I am sure if they had that type of information they could tell me. My source is reliable.

Earned or bought your second degree??

As for humility , it does not sound like you have much there yourself. I have plenty , maybe not as much as I should have but there is still time I am still young. ,but that is what gives me the edge. Maybe you can teach me some, ehh??

[sean_stonehart]

I cut them from my blog. What about the five animal set?? what about the bagua sets?

You haven't answered my questions that I asked earlier.

Let me repost them...

Ask where the 5 Animal form comes from at your 4th to 5th degree.

and

How about a simpler question... which of the CLF bagua hand sets taught in SD since SD encompasses CLF??

I still have no answer for them.

[sean_stonehart]

Yes, it is heresay and I said that from the beginning, I am sure if they had that type of information they could tell me. My source is reliable.

Cool... so it shouldn't be that hard to ask them since you stated without doubt that CLF is taught as a subset of SD.


Earned or bought your second degree??


I dunno... paid for the test, took the test, got the belt & same certificate as you have. Ask yourself the same question.


As for humility , it does not sound like you have much there yourself. I have plenty , maybe not as much as I should have but there is still time I am still young. ,but that is what gives me the edge. Maybe you can teach me some, ehh??

Nah I doubt it... you're not in any mental frame to learn right now. Maybe in a year or two, but right now, you can't learn.

[cjurakpt]

ok, I'll bite - are there any links to any of the SD forms out there just for the sake of curiosity?

[sean_stonehart]

ok, I'll bite - are there any links to any of the SD forms out there just for the sake of curiosity?

There was at least at one time on the Denver site.

www.shao-lin.com and look for some festival.

[Judge Pen]

Like I said it is just what I heard. I do not know if it is true or not, because at that level the material is taught in secret and is not advertised. But I have some reliable sources.;)

And he( sean) said that he knew nothing about SD except for that which he had seen , which as he admitted, was very little.

You mis-read that. I know him. He's had quite the bit of training in SD and CLF. I don't always agree with his opinions on SD now, but I can't argue with him on CLF. Aside from our 5 animal form, nothing in SD reminds me of CLF aside from the random technique here and there. I would be curious to compare our butterfly knife set to theirs.

[MasterKiller]

There was at least at one time on the Denver site.

www.shao-lin.com and look for some festival.

http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=13

Pay particular attention to the "Shao-Lin Grandmaster" video.

[cjurakpt]

There was at least at one time on the Denver site.

www.shao-lin.com and look for some festival.

sigh...I wish I hadn't looked;

it would have been fun to see what would have happened if they had shown up and competed at something like NACMAF or Jeff Bolt's tournaments (I assume that they don't participate in any of the current TCMA tourneys either)

[cjurakpt]

http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=13

Pay particular attention to the "Shao-Lin Grandmaster" video.

that's the famous Epileptic Crane, if I am not mistaken...

[MasterKiller]

sigh...I wish I hadn't looked;

it would have been fun to see what would have happened if they had shown up and competed at something like NACMAF or Jeff Bolt's tournaments (I assume that they don't participate in any of the current TCMA tourneys either)

Of course not. Haven't you seen their mission statement?

"If your primary interest is tournament skills, I advise you to seek your training elsewhere! Most of what you will learn here is too lethal for tournament use. I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.' As did the immortals, we should learn to destroy so that we may preserve! It is a way of truth. The knowledge that I offer you is not an athletic training; it is a sacred trust." --Shaolin Grandmaster Sin Kwang The'

The Annual Sin The' Karate Tournament®™ point-sparring matches must be like X-mas for the local morgue.

[djcaldwell]

... at that level the material is taught in secret and is not advertised. But I have some reliable sources.;)

As I'm sure many will agree - the "secret" is that there is not real secret. Anyone who tells you they are going to teach you "secrets" is nonsense.

[Judge Pen]

sigh...I wish I hadn't looked;

it would have been fun to see what would have happened if they had shown up and competed at something like NACMAF or Jeff Bolt's tournaments (I assume that they don't participate in any of the current TCMA tourneys either)


I have. Some schools do. There is a difference from school to school in the quality of instruction. Not saying that I'm that good (never pretended to be) but I will put myself out there from time to time.

[Judge Pen]

As I'm sure many will agree - the "secret" is that there is not real secret. Anyone who tells you they are going to teach you "secrets" is nonsense.

I agree. There are things that aren't taught until a certain amount of time and effort have been put in and students shouldn't go around bragging about what they are being taught as opposed to someone else.

[tattooedmonk]

As I'm sure many will agree - the "secret" is that there is not real secret. Anyone who tells you they are going to teach you "secrets" is nonsense. I agree , but that is not what I wrote. READ IT AGAIN.

[tattooedmonk]

That's a great cut & paste for taiji jings, but that's not what I asked about. I asked about the CLF gings.

How about a simpler question... which of the CLF bagua hand sets taught in SD since SD encompasses CLF??

Also could you give me a heads up on noi lim sao? I'm trying to make it work & it's just not there yet... You are refering to the second stage of training( noi lim sau) the internal hands I believe? I am not there in CLF but I have learned it in Ba gua and other arts.

[sean_stonehart]

You are refering to the second stage of training( noi lim sau) the internal hands I believe? I am not there in CLF but I have learned it in Ba gua and other arts.


Nice try from www.clfsd.com/kung.html ...

No I was wanting to hear about the way SD teaches noi lim sao in their CLF curriculum since according to you via reliable heresay they have the complete system to teach out.

[Lamassu]

that's the famous Epileptic Crane, if I am not mistaken...

You're mistaken. It's 'Tung Lung Chuen'. :)

[tattooedmonk]

that's the famous Epileptic Crane, if I am not mistaken... Funny, It is actually a form Known as Tang Lang Chien or Chuan . I was told that it was a form that was created my GMT when he was young based on the things he was taught about mantis early on. Each of the strikes that he is doing in the form are to specific pressure points and not some epileptic fit or flailing. I have not seen it ( the form)done in any other system, however I have seen many of the techniques done in other mantis forms.

[tattooedmonk]

Nice try from www.clfsd.com/kung.html ...

No I was wanting to hear about the way SD teaches noi lim sao in their CLF curriculum since according to you via reliable heresay they have the complete system to teach out.No ,I was looking in my notes. Whatever link that is , it did not work. And how would I know if the forms from CLF have only been taught to the elder masters??

[Lamassu]

Of course not. Haven't you seen their mission statement?

"If your primary interest is tournament skills, I advise you to seek your training elsewhere! Most of what you will learn here is too lethal for tournament use. I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.' As did the immortals, we should learn to destroy so that we may preserve! It is a way of truth. The knowledge that I offer you is not an athletic training; it is a sacred trust." --Shaolin Grandmaster Sin Kwang The'

The Annual Sin The' Karate Tournament®™ point-sparring matches must be like X-mas for the local morgue.

Boy this current pi$$ing contest is fun! :) This mission statement inticed me because when I joined, I wasn't interested in tournaments, I was interested in defending myself. Whether or not you subcribe to the history or if it's 'real' Shaolin is irrelevent to me. What matters to me is that I'll be able to defend myself in a real fight, and I have. So I'm satisfied with what I learned.

Keep on pi$$ing and moaning my friends! :D

[sean_stonehart]

The only reference to Noi Lim Sao on the net referred to as "2nd Level" is on his site. Site link fix... http://www.clfsd.com/kungfu.html

As far as knowing that... you're the one that provided the ground that you have a "reliable source" that apparently provided you with that info.

So ...
- you've been told wrong & won't admit it,
- caught in a sticky position & don't know how to get out of it with face,
- blind follower waiting for the UFO to come back with a cup of koolaide in your hand

Also you've shown outright contempt for GM Wong by calling him by his full name, and getting the name wrong as well, after you say you've been studying with him for 6 months.

So where do you want to go now?

[tattooedmonk]

The only reference to Noi Lim Sao on the net referred to as "2nd Level" is on his site. Site link fix... http://www.clfsd.com/kungfu.html

As far as knowing that... you're the one that provided the ground that you have a "reliable source" that apparently provided you with that info.

So ...
- you've been told wrong & won't admit it,
- caught in a sticky position & don't know how to get out of it with face,
- blind follower waiting for the UFO to come back with a cup of koolaide in your hand

Also you've shown outright contempt for GM Wong by calling him by his full name, and getting the name wrong as well, after you say you've been studying with him for 6 months.

So where do you want to go now? If I am wrong then I am wrong , but I have no reason to doubt this person nor will I . I will find out if it is true or not and will admit that I am wrong if it is untrue. Until then I will continue to take this person's word for it.

Do not make assumptions about me , you do not know me, nor do you want to know me.

As for contemt for GM Wong( Doc Fai Wong) give me a break.

By the way , cool site.

[djcaldwell]

I agree , but that is not what I wrote. READ IT AGAIN.

Uhm...I do have a college degree I am able to comprehend what you wrote. Which stated that the "CLF" as you specifically noted is only taught at 7th and 8th levels and is done in "secret" are there many more ways that I can read that.

To which my response remains anything that needs to be conveyed in "secret" is crap. Especially when you're referring to a system that is widely known as CLF. It's not like you're learning to throw out chi blasts...or...are you?!!

[djcaldwell]

that's the famous Epileptic Crane, if I am not mistaken...

LOL...you're hysterical.

[djcaldwell]

There was at least at one time on the Denver site.

www.shao-lin.com and look for some festival.

WOW...

Double Daggers - so as long as I hold two daggers at the same time and do absolutely nothing with them I too can have a shaolin double dagger form. Why the heck have I been trying to work them in both hands for all these years?

I do concede that is a 5 animal form. Perhaps it's not the traditional but - squirrels, bunnies, pigeons, kittens and salmon are animals none the less.

Drunken Style - oh I thought that was part of the 5 animals....let's not touch the spear vs. sword or I mean sword hacking at spear.

Shaolin all the way dude!

[tattooedmonk]

Uhm...I do have a college degree I am able to comprehend what you wrote. Which stated that the "CLF" as you specifically noted is only taught at 7th and 8th levels and is done in "secret" are there many more ways that I can read that.

To which my response remains anything that needs to be conveyed in "secret" is crap. Especially when you're referring to a system that is widely known as CLF. It's not like you're learning to throw out chi blasts...or...are you?!! Haha,

Originally Posted by tattooedmonk
... at that level the material is taught in secret and is not advertised.( post 5021)

Obviously your college education did not help you with this one.

You have been misreading and responding to most of what I have said , talk about defensive much!

[djcaldwell]

Haha,

Originally Posted by tattooedmonk
... at that level the material is taught in secret and is not advertised.( post 5021)

Obviously your college education did not help you with this one.

You have been misreading and responding to most of what I have said , talk about defensive much!

Are you a complete twit? Nevermind - you answered that time and time again.

I GOT IT..."THAT LEVEL"..."MATERIAL TAUGHT IN SECRET"...EQUALS...B.S.

Maybe you should read your own writing or perhaps learn to convey what you mean. But obviously you don't KNOW what you mean to convey so therefore you convey nonsense.

If you enjoy your training then by all means continue - be it shaolin or not - that's another story but as long as you enjoy disillusion then that's great - go for it.

I'm out...at least 'till later.

[kwaichang]

Your out alright out of your mind KC

[cjurakpt]

let's not touch the spear vs. sword
yes, I'd like to comment on that -

this "set" showed a total lack of any comprehension of how either weapon is supposed to be used; it lacked all but the most basic types of exchanges, and even those were poorly organized; the way the set was structured was that one person purely attacked and the other only defended for a number of moves, and then it reversed - this is the antithesis of how every other 2-person TCMA weapon set I've seen or learned works (I've seen one or two in my time); additionally, neither weapon was used properly in terms of the ranges and how each one handles the other when in their range of strength (e.g. - what do you do with a broadsword against a spear at long range to get into short range, and what does the spear player then do when fighting at short range)

I say nothing per se about the "skill" of the performers (which was pretty low), because some will no doubt say some schools and practitioners are beter than others, etc.; fine - I am talking about the content of the form purely on a technical level

some will argue against this based on the fact that I am not a high ranking SD blackbelt, that I am missing the "inner essence" of the forms, etc.

it's very simple: you can try to deflect the reality with all sort sorts of qualifiers, attacking the poster, etc.; bottom line is that, if you don't get why that set was totally lame, then you are beyond my personal powers of persuasion; I also can recommend another weapon set that you would no doubt find to be of very high level...
http://www.tigerkungfu.com/videos/Emei.html

[djcaldwell]

yes, I'd like to comment on that -


it's very simple: you can try to deflect the reality with all sort sorts of qualifiers, attacking the poster, etc.; bottom line is that, if you don't get why that set was totally lame, then you are beyond my personal powers of persuasion; I also can recommend another weapon set that you would no doubt find to be of very high level...
http://www.tigerkungfu.com/videos/Emei.html

ROTFLMAO...

[kwaichang]

You guys think that is a good sword form ??? No accounting for lack of judgement KC

[MasterKiller]

He was being sarcastic, KC. Doo Wai gets punked about as much as Sin The' online.

[djcaldwell]

This is a quality performance. Sorry if someone already found it but I didn't go back through all 300+ pages of this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnpaW5hXWDg

[cjurakpt]

He was being sarcastic, KC. Doo Wai gets punked about as much as Sin The' online.

we HAVE to get those two together...

[sean_stonehart]

If I am wrong then I am wrong , but I have no reason to doubt this person nor will I . I will find out if it is true or not and will admit that I am wrong if it is untrue. Until then I will continue to take this person's word for it.

Of course there's no reason. They're receiving the same inaccurate information but since you won't remove the blinders, they are obviously correct.


Do not make assumptions about me , you do not know me, nor do you want to know me.

Is that some kind of veiled attempt at intimidation?


As for contemt for GM Wong( Doc Fai Wong) give me a break.

That right there speaks volume about you.


By the way , cool site.

I'm sure they think so. It's layout & presentation is professional & clean. No doubts there.

[sean_stonehart]

WOW...

Yeah that's one response.


Double Daggers - so as long as I hold two daggers at the same time and do absolutely nothing with them I too can have a shaolin double dagger form. Why the heck have I been trying to work them in both hands for all these years?

Yeah pretty much


I do concede that is a 5 animal form. Perhaps it's not the traditional but - squirrels, bunnies, pigeons, kittens and salmon are animals none the less.

Ouch


Drunken Style - oh I thought that was part of the 5 animals....let's not touch the spear vs. sword or I mean sword hacking at spear.


.....:eek:

[cjurakpt]

Funny, It is actually a form Known as Tang Lang Chien or Chuan . I was told that it was a form that was created my GMT when he was young based on the things he was taught about mantis early on. Each of the strikes that he is doing in the form are to specific pressure points and not some epileptic fit or flailing. I have not seen it ( the form)done in any other system, however I have seen many of the techniques done in other mantis forms.

it looks nothing like classical mantis, neither northern nor southern; if it is mantis, it's about the strangest conceptualization of it I've ever seen; I don't know what techniques from the clip in question are similar in any way to any established mantis style: so maybe we can post it over in the mantis forum and see what people who do mantis regularly have to say over there...

also, here's a poser: how exactly do you train strikes to "specific pressure points" by doing forms in the air? what are you aiming at? ever try to hit a pressure point on a moving, resisting opponent? also, aren't pressure points going to be located differently from one person to another (ever heard of anatomical variation?), and also won't they be spaced differently from each other depending on the person's size?

[djcaldwell]

also, here's a poser: how exactly do you train strikes to "specific pressure points" by doing forms in the air? what are you aiming at? aren't pressure points going to be located differently from one person to another (ever heard of anatomical variation?), and also won't they be spaced differently from each other depending on the person's size?

I've always been spot on in my pressure point attacks - the wind doesn't dare blow uninvited in my backyard anymore.

Come on...we're talking about a group that swing spears wildly overhead at a single opponent that is maybe 2 feet away from them. They have to grasp spatial differntials before they can even begin to wrap their brain around anatomical variations.

[tattooedmonk]

yes, I'd like to comment on that -

this "set" showed a total lack of any comprehension of how either weapon is supposed to be used; it lacked all but the most basic types of exchanges, and even those were poorly organized; the way the set was structured was that one person purely attacked and the other only defended for a number of moves, and then it reversed - this is the antithesis of how every other 2-person TCMA weapon set I've seen or learned works (I've seen one or two in my time); additionally, neither weapon was used properly in terms of the ranges and how each one handles the other when in their range of strength (e.g. - what do you do with a broadsword against a spear at long range to get into short range, and what does the spear player then do when fighting at short range)

I say nothing per se about the "skill" of the performers (which was pretty low), because some will no doubt say some schools and practitioners are beter than others, etc.; fine - I am talking about the content of the form purely on a technical level

some will argue against this based on the fact that I am not a high ranking SD blackbelt, that I am missing the "inner essence" of the forms, etc.

it's very simple: you can try to deflect the reality with all sort sorts of qualifiers, attacking the poster, etc.; bottom line is that, if you don't get why that set was totally lame, then you are beyond my personal powers of persuasion; I also can recommend another weapon set that you would no doubt find to be of very high level...
http://www.tigerkungfu.com/videos/Emei.htmlHey, I even admit that those videos on the CSC web site suck . I did in the past and I do now.

They are not the best representatives of the art.

I know all those forms and most of them are quite unrecognizable. Makes me sick. The forms themselves are purely CMA but it is hard to tell with the hacks butchering them.

And that tiger claw video ......PURE $H!T

[tattooedmonk]

This is a quality performance. Sorry if someone already found it but I didn't go back through all 300+ pages of this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnpaW5hXWDgPURE $H!T!!!!

[tattooedmonk]

it looks nothing like classical mantis, neither northern nor southern; if it is mantis, it's about the strangest conceptualization of it I've ever seen; I don't know what techniques from the clip in question are similar in any way to any established mantis style: so maybe we can post it over in the mantis forum and see what people who do mantis regularly have to say over there...

also, here's a poser: how exactly do you train strikes to "specific pressure points" by doing forms in the air? what are you aiming at? ever try to hit a pressure point on a moving, resisting opponent? also, aren't pressure points going to be located differently from one person to another (ever heard of anatomical variation?), and also won't they be spaced differently from each other depending on the person's size?
Maybe not but there are many points in the forms where it is . There are many styles of mantis some known and some not known . If you knew the form in question you would see the valid techniques through out.

And yes I have heard of anatomical variation . I study TCM as well as utilize pressure points in all aspects of my training.
As for the pressure point striking in the air , that is just stupid . You still have to do the techniques while doing the form . The pressure point strikes are practice on partners and studied in depth in the system.

[djcaldwell]

Maybe not but there are many points in the forms where it is . There are many styles of mantis some known and some not known . If you knew the form in question you would see the valid techniques through out.

I'm going to asssume that was from one of those "not known" oh wait..."secretly taught" styles of mantis. cjurakpt is far better suited to continue that discussion if he wants. I only really know a couple of mantis players.

[tattooedmonk]

I'm going to asssume that was from one of those "not known" oh wait..."secretly taught" styles of mantis. cjurakpt is far better suited to continue that discussion if he wants. I only really know a couple of mantis players. you can assume anything you want. Grow up .

[djcaldwell]

you can assume anything you want. Grow up .

Grow up? Did I say nah nah nah or something? No, rather I pointed out inconsistencies and commented on performances and techniques that were clearly below par.

Your making statements about something which you are clearly unable to substantiate about a system that by its own former members statements (and more than one member) is misrepresenting itself.

Like I said earlier - if you're fulfilling your dream and are getting from it all that you need then there is no need to defend it. You have all you need, right? Yet, you persist in the discussion without providing anything to base your argument on other than the fact that you have a "reliable" source. So are you convincing us (not likely) or are you justifying it to yourself?

If you come to the table then be prepared. Otherwise, continue with your training and move on.

[boshea]

Had I only started so young.....

....then you'd have been the baddest kung fu mofo on the planet by now. Yea, I think a lot of us are wishing the same thing!

Ah well, can only make the best of it now and train hard in the present...

Cheers,
-b

[tattooedmonk]

Grow up? Did I say nah nah nah or something? No, rather I pointed out inconsistencies and commented on performances and techniques that were clearly below par.

Your making statements about something which you are clearly unable to substantiate about a system that by its own former members statements (and more than one member) is misrepresenting itself.

Like I said earlier - if you're fulfilling your dream and are getting from it all that you need then there is no need to defend it. You have all you need, right? Yet, you persist in the discussion without providing anything to base your argument on other than the fact that you have a "reliable" source. So are you convincing us (not likely) or are you justifying it to yourself?

If you come to the table then be prepared. Otherwise, continue with your training and move on. Yeah, former students who know nothing about the art.
(low level ) Save the other b.s for someone who gives a $h!T

[sean_stonehart]

TTM... are you going to answer my questions or not?

If so, please do without too much time on Google.

If not, please say that you're not. There are several options available to you that will help you save face.

Among them are:
--- don't know & won't admit it
--- won't adjust your mindset to maybe learn something
--- just too stubborn to think that you might've been wrong for 15 years


What material are you working on since you've been doing CLF for 6 months now?

[Judge Pen]

how exactly do you train strikes to "specific pressure points" by doing forms in the air? what are you aiming at? ever try to hit a pressure point on a moving, resisting opponent? also, aren't pressure points going to be located differently from one person to another (ever heard of anatomical variation?), and also won't they be spaced differently from each other depending on the person's size?

I'm going to chime in here, but let me say from the onset that I'm not a fan of pressure point technique at least not the way they are often presented. PP striking is almost impossible because of the reasons listed above, but it's not a bad idea to train for them and aim for them. So you don't a specific point, but at least you are aiming for very specific targets that are massed together in vulnerable areas. Hard object striking soft target equals effective technique whether you hit a specific point or not.

As for accounting for size differences etc, people who focus on PP do spend quite a bit of time learning the points anatomically. As for form performance, you assume the opponents in the form are roughly the same size as you. If I'm 6'1" then my 'punch to the nose' would be to someone that is 6'1" while I'm doing the form. That's no substitute for live training.

[kwaichang]

There are about 700 PP on the human body which correlate with nerves and or blood vessels or origin and insertion points. to hipt them specifically takes practice to hit them in a certain order takes more . to hit them sometimes just takes luck. When a fighter shoots in for a take down there are approx 40-50 points vulnerable to strike. They work and are outlawed by the UFC along with groin grab eye gouge etc. KC

[djcaldwell]

There are about 700 PP on the human body which correlate with nerves and or blood vessels or origin and insertion points. to hipt them specifically takes practice to hit them in a certain order takes more . to hit them sometimes just takes luck. When a fighter shoots in for a take down there are approx 40-50 points vulnerable to strike. They work and are outlawed by the UFC along with groin grab eye gouge etc. KC

The fact that they exist and are targetable even in order is not disputed - the particular form and the notion that that array of whatever it was is designed to attack particluar points is what was questionable. Aside from the obvious fact that when training to target pressure points you can't do it effectively by striking the air. You need to have specific visual targets to strike.

From working with real people I know what targets I'm aiming even in motion and general areas to strike. Some people the spots are different - hey some people don't even react - my brother is one who really doesn't respond to several of the more commonly targeted areas. Others as noted are difficult to pinpoint which is cjurakpt's point - that by working them in the air you are never going to effectively learn to strike at these points. That aside from the fact that he doesn't appear to be striking at anything specific -versus having some type of spasm.

[boshea]

There are about 700 PP on the human body which correlate with nerves and or blood vessels or origin and insertion points. to hipt them specifically takes practice to hit them in a certain order takes more . to hit them sometimes just takes luck. When a fighter shoots in for a take down there are approx 40-50 points vulnerable to strike. They work and are outlawed by the UFC along with groin grab eye gouge etc. KC

Are the 40-50 vulnerable points among the 700 pressure points that you are referring to here?

It's certainly legal to strike an opponent who is going in for a takedown. I don't see any mention of the 40-50 points vulnerable to strikes that you say are outlawed in the UFC rules (http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules#section3). Which are they?

The UFC rules do mention a few specific strikes that are not allowed:

- Eye gouging of any kind.
- Groin attacks of any kind.
- Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
- Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
- Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
- Kicking to the kidney with the heel.

Thanks,
-brian

[cjurakpt]

[
When a fighter shoots in for a take down there are approx 40-50 points vulnerable to strike. They work and are outlawed by the UFC KC


hey, guess what? thought I'd ask the MMA crowd what they thought about that!

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46733

[kungfujunky]

the rules state no eye gouges and no groin attacks. in those areas there are AT LEAST 40-50 pressure points.

this is a fact and is not a statement that shaolin do is to deadly for ufc

grow up man your just looking to cause fights.

your acting like a troll

[djcaldwell]

the rules state no eye gouges and no groin attacks. in those areas there are AT LEAST 40-50 pressure points.

this is a fact and is not a statement that shaolin do is to deadly for ufc

grow up man your just looking to cause fights.

your acting like a troll

That is why people laugh at TCMA because of statments like that - ooh it's too deadly - I can't show you my secret killing techiques. What do you truly believe that SD has that other TCMA or MA has for that matter that makes it so much more lethal.

I'm not the MMA bandwagon guy but the training and conditioning these guys do is intense - they may not know the paralyzing pressure point combination that will make your head pop off - but I'm sure they can pretty much just take your head off.

WAKE UP - the kung fu fantasy that you live in doesn't exist - expand your knowledge be "realistic" in what your capable of doing and maybe then you'll find real Kung Fu. Nobody - NOT EVEN IN HONG KONG buys into the special secret killing powers of kung fu. Its a western mythology based on cinematic dreams.

Look my Sifu grabs me and leaves me bruised - not because he has magical death touch but because he spent the last 26 years of his life training, conditioning and building that strength that when he pokes me in the chest it FEELS like his finger is going to come out of my back but it's nothing secret about it. He can grab the right spot probably more often than not but let not kid. It's because he's grabbed those points probably 10,000 times throughout his life.

The deadliness of the art doesn't come from the art itself but from the understanding and effectiveness of it's practitioner. An MMA guy or a Boxer I assure you has a better jab, cross and uppercut than your above average MA guy...why - because they do it day in and day out.

Sifu tosses out a saying all the time - don't fear the man that knows 10,000 techniques but fear the man that knows one and does it 10,0000 times.

Too deadly...please tell me some of the techniques that would make your art too deadly...if they're not secret of course.

[kungfujunky]

exactly. the same holds true for my instructors and grandmaster.

the point is what kc said was true. those crucial pressure point areas are off limits in ufc.

he didnt say we are to deadly. simply that those points are against the rules.

you guys are making some sweeping generalizations here.

[kwaichang]

I guess if the mma guys practiced to hit a point it would work for them and they might have more respect for it, instead they would rather just hit a head. As far as being too deadly well I guess that depends on the practioner not the art, but training in an art that is just pitty pat will only get you killed. As far as SD is concerned there are classes closed to those with out the time in. Ifought ion the street and elsewhere and I know what Isee and have experienced. JUST A QUESTION have you cj or pt really used your stuff or are you guys just wannabes and like to argue///?? KC

[boshea]

That is why people laugh at TCMA because of statments like that - ooh it's too deadly - I can't show you my secret killing techiques. What do you truly believe that SD has that other TCMA or MA has for that matter that makes it so much more lethal.


In kungfujunky's defense, I'm pretty sure he was not saying that. His wording was a bit awkward and would have benefitted from some punctuation, but read it again. He was definitely not saying that Shaolin-Do is too deadly for UFC:


this is a fact and is not a statement that shaolin do is to deadly for ufc


-brian

[Judge Pen]

- Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
- Striking downward using the point of the elbow.


I think these two rules limit the options one has to defending the shoot. Not that these are the only or best way to defend the shoot, but they have obviously been outlawed because of the potential for spinal injury.

[Judge Pen]

The thing is, in any TMA, these techniques (striking the spine, groin, eye gouges, elbows down to the back, spine or head) are taught, at least in the forms/applicaitons, but they are rarely practiced because they are dangerous if unrestricted. So, in a sense, most TMA, from Muay Thai to Tai Chi, contains techniques that are "too deadly" and rule exist to protect agasint them from being used. It doesn't make people that train TMA better or worse.

I agree with the 10,000 technique vs. the 1 technique done 10,000 times statement. In essence, effectivness depends upon the intensity and quality of training involved with the individual. I agree it's a crock to sit back and say you're too deadly if you don't take the time to be effective at all techniques that you can use. MMA fighters are so effective because they train so intensly and are so conditioned physically and with timing and resistance. But there are trade offs. . .

[kwaichang]

In boxing aspect of MMA jab, cross, upper cut, hook short and long and haymaker for those who like it 10 rounds = approx 1800 - 2300 punches with and w/o resistance = 5000 punches a day . In Ma forms the back fist, finger thrust tech, chops, palm heels ridge hand . BLAA blaaa blaaa. My point by the time you do 20 forms 3 x each with all the techniques you have equaled the repetion done by a boxer fighter MMA. then add focus mits in MA Heavy bag and sparring too just like the other guys but tweek it with more accuracy to specific points and specific punching and striking ways, and I guesss you will just be OK at best. KC

[djcaldwell]

In kungfujunky's defense, I'm pretty sure he was not saying that. His wording was a bit awkward and would have benefitted from some punctuation, but read it again. He was definitely not saying that Shaolin-Do is too deadly for UFC:
-brian

My bad KC as it would appear that was not the intended statement and TTM can now say that I actually did read something wrong. The point I make in itself is still valid.

JUST A QUESTION have you cj or pt really used your stuff or are you guys just wannabes and like to argue///?? KC

I grew up living in 3 out of 5 boroughs of NYC the oldest of my generation so I spent my entire youth fighting. If not for me then for a younger cousin or brother. When I was a kid it's how disputes were settled - you win you're right you loose shut up and go home. I've won and I've lost. I've also fought in the ring Muay Thai and San Da again with both wins and losses. Since I reached a certain level of skill and w/ age I stopped fighting out side and even working the door at bars found that I break up and diffuse more than throw down. I love to spar with anyone who is willing. It's the only way to work skill and grow. So the in short - Yeah I've fought a little.

[tattooedmonk]

Are the 40-50 vulnerable points among the 700 pressure points that you are referring to here?

It's certainly legal to strike an opponent who is going in for a takedown. I don't see any mention of the 40-50 points vulnerable to strikes that you say are outlawed in the UFC rules (http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules#section3). Which are they?

The UFC rules do mention a few specific strikes that are not allowed:

- Eye gouging of any kind.
- Groin attacks of any kind.
- Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
- Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
- Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
- Kicking to the kidney with the heel.

Thanks,
-brianStriking to the throat, trachea, back of the head ,and spine, as well as using the tip of the elbow

[BentMonk]

Posted by: djcaldwell - "Sifu tosses out a saying all the time - don't fear the man that knows 10,000 techniques but fear the man that knows one and does it 10,0000 times."

This is my favorite MA saying. I also agree that whatever combat art one studies, there is no substitute for live training, and serious physical conditioning. This is how we train in Louisville. I know other SD schools that do as well. As to the quality of the posted clips...

I am not familiar enough with mantis outside of SD to make an informed comparison.

The tiger clip was IMO on par with any average student in any MA. Most people who study MA do so as a hobby. Life is too hectic for most of us to devote as much time to training as we'd like. I also feel that it would be tough for any SD player to get a truly unbiased critique from this crowd. There have been exceptions, JP's kwan do and sparring clips for two. I have seen remarkable performances of SD material. I have asked the people who did them to please post themselves, they politely declined. They're indifferent to this entire discussion. On the one hand I see their point, and most of the time I am of a similar mind. Then there are times that I get tired of seeing my art get slammed all the time. I'd post videos of myself, but I am average at best.

[tattooedmonk]

My bad KC as it would appear that was not the intended statement and TTM can now say that I actually did read something wrong. The point I make in itself is still valid.



I grew up living in 3 out of 5 boroughs of NYC the oldest of my generation so I spent my entire youth fighting. If not for me then for a younger cousin or brother. When I was a kid it's how disputes were settled - you win you're right you loose shut up and go home. I've won and I've lost. I've also fought in the ring Muay Thai and San Da again with both wins and losses. Since I reached a certain level of skill and w/ age I stopped fighting out side and even working the door at bars found that I break up and diffuse more than throw down. I love to spar with anyone who is willing. It's the only way to work skill and grow. So the in short - Yeah I've fought a little.
Actually you have been misreading all along. What the hell is this crap?Talk about lacking in humility.

[Judge Pen]

There have been exceptions, JP's kwan do and sparring clips for two.

I disagree with you there. I'm average at best myslef, but I'm a scrapper and don't mind the contact. As for my form, I can spend hours pointing out the flaws there, but my point in posting my form wasn't to show how good or bad of a performer that I am, but to give an honest representation of the typical SD form (one that has been taught in SD for as long as I've been around and --I'm told--for a fair bit longer) and show that it is unmistakingly Chinese in origin

People can criticize me and my performance, but the form is CMA. Although many argue that it is a more accurate representation of a pu dao form instead of a kwan dao form, it is still CMA in technique. It is not used as one would a naginata for instance.

[djcaldwell]

In boxing aspect of MMA jab, cross, upper cut, hook short and long and haymaker for those who like it 10 rounds = approx 1800 - 2300 punches with and w/o resistance = 5000 punches a day . In Ma forms the back fist, finger thrust tech, chops, palm heels ridge hand . BLAA blaaa blaaa. My point by the time you do 20 forms 3 x each with all the techniques you have equaled the repetion done by a boxer fighter MMA. then add focus mits in MA Heavy bag and sparring too just like the other guys but tweek it with more accuracy to specific points and specific punching and striking ways, and I guesss you will just be OK at best. KC

So you're working 20 forms 3 times a week and then doing all the the other stuff as well.

Look I'm not speaking from a desk jockeys position...I've trainined I've trained in CMA since I was a teen and I've trained Thai Boxing and even had the opportunity to train with David Ross at his school and with his guys. IT'S DIFFERENT.

Forms are not ever going to make someone an efficient fighter. I love forms, I think they rule and serve their purpose but IT IS NOT to create a fighter. Yeah boxers shadow box and there is a drill that is worked with punches - but its purposes are more a) warm up b) develop muscle memory and c) speed. But you do not and can not develop the "feel" until you hit something with purpose. Then you feel how your body reacts, then you feel how the positioning that may be off in form affects your strikes.

As for accuracy and perhaps I'm misreading again but if the implication is that there is "less accuracy" required for boxing then - you haven't boxed. It's not just wild swinging at someones head. There are targets and points just as in any other fighting - now make it Thai and you have to worry about a world more than just those hands.

Look I love TCMA and for years I was under the same illusion as many in which I was the KF advocate and dare you say that our skill is not deadly. Both my Sifu's had told me that it's not really like that and I STILL DIDN'T BELIEVE IT. Until I went to Hong Kong with my Sifu heard the same thing he Sifu had been telling me for two years and the light went off in my head.

Look KF without a doubt is Kick arse and by the rest of the MA world, totally underated right now and it's not because it's not efficient. It's because we have groups of people who boast of it's deadliness but never show it. Who speak of the effectiveness of their training and how they can do anything...until they get in the ring and can't adapt.

As far as I'm concerned - a good martial artist, a good fighter, needs to evolve, grow and learn from their mistakes. If you can't compete because your techniques are too strong or illegal and you as a fighter can't adapt them to do it then you have no "Kung Fu" you're in essense a monkey duplicating the same thing he /she has been taught.

Learn, grow and make yourself better.

[boshea]

Striking to the throat, trachea, back of the head ,and spine, as well as using the tip of the elbow

Forgive me if I'm missing something, but isn't that what I just posted?

What I was asking was specifically about the 40 or 50 pressure points that kwaichang said are banned by the UFC. Kungfujunky responded and said that between eye gouges and groin attacks there are at least 40 or 50 pressure points. I think that's splitting hairs a bit, but it looks like just a matter of using different terms.

Thanks for clarifying guys.
-brian

[djcaldwell]

Actually you have been misreading all along. What the hell is this crap?Talk about lacking in humility.

Well I was addressing a question posed to me by KC. As for humility, where is it in the MA handbook that one needs to be humble to be a martial artist. That again is a KF Fantasy of the "moral" code that we must abide by in order to truly succeed at our art.

It's neither required nor is one held back because he's not such a nice person. Does the name Bok Mei mean anything to you?

Not to mention that if I lacked humility I certainly would not have posted that I've lost fights - I would present myself as the ultimate fighter - but alas - I'm not - would like to be - but - no actually I'm good the way I am.

[tattooedmonk]

Forgive me if I'm missing something, but isn't that what I just posted?

What I was asking was specifically about the 40 or 50 pressure points that kwaichang said are banned by the UFC. Kungfujunky responded and said that between eye gouges and groin attacks there are at least 40 or 50 pressure points. I think that's splitting hairs a bit, but it looks like just a matter of using different terms.

Thanks for clarifying guys.
-brian Actually,what I was saying that in these areas are the pressure points in which he was talking about . Actually there are more than that.

[kwaichang]

Boxing does not teach to take a knuckle and hit a point and if it doesnt teach it and you dont do it it anit going to happen for you. I have boxed and there is accuracy see De Lahoya when he got knocked out TKO by a strike to Liver 13. That is an exception though. Most KO 's are due to trauma repetive to the brain stem via the chin. KC

[tattooedmonk]

So you're working 20 forms 3 times a week and then doing all the the other stuff as well.

Look I'm not speaking from a desk jockeys position...I've trainined I've trained in CMA since I was a teen and I've trained Thai Boxing and even had the opportunity to train with David Ross at his school and with his guys. IT'S DIFFERENT.


Forms are not ever going to make someone an efficient fighter. I love forms, I think they rule and serve their purpose but IT IS NOT to create a fighter. Yeah boxers shadow box and there is a drill that is worked with punches - but its purposes are more a) warm up b) develop muscle memory and c) speed. But you do not and can not develop the "feel" until you hit something with purpose. Then you feel how your body reacts, then you feel how the positioning that may be off in form affects your strikes.

As for accuracy and perhaps I'm misreading again but if the implication is that there is "less accuracy" required for boxing then - you haven't boxed. It's not just wild swinging at someones head. There are targets and points just as in any other fighting - now make it Thai and you have to worry about a world more than just those hands.

Look I love TCMA and for years I was under the same illusion as many in which I was the KF advocate and dare you say that our skill is not deadly. Both my Sifu's had told me that it's not really like that and I STILL DIDN'T BELIEVE IT. Until I went to Hong Kong with my Sifu heard the same thing he Sifu had been telling me for two years and the light went off in my head.

Look KF without a doubt is Kick arse and by the rest of the MA world, totally underated right now and it's not because it's not efficient. It's because we have groups of people who boast of it's deadliness but never show it. Who speak of the effectiveness of their training and how they can do anything...until they get in the ring and can't adapt.

As far as I'm concerned - a good martial artist, a good fighter, needs to evolve, grow and learn from their mistakes. If you can't compete because your techniques are too strong or illegal and you as a fighter can't adapt them to do it then you have no "Kung Fu" you're in essense a monkey duplicating the same thing he /she has been taught.

Learn, grow and make yourself better. Yes , forms will make you a better fighter if you know how to use them properly. They are more than just shadow boxing or just a dance . You have to know how to use them or they are just what you think they are ....useless for fighting. Do you understand how forms are used in their entirety ??Each piece needs to be brokendown for practical appilication and all the techniques can be used at the proper place and time ...if not ....it is just a dance.

A big reason why no one can prove it's effectiveness in the ring is because it is for martial purposes ......you know WAR!!?!? On the battlfield it is kill or be killed. All the rules of MMA prohibit the use of certain techniques that are the mainstay of CMA ........ which are going in for the kill .

It is not for sport . Yeah you can train a CMArtist to fight in the ring but that means that he does justs what everyone else is doing punching ,kicking , and grappling. Just the basics.

What makes CMA more profound is the depth of psychology , philosophy and physiology that is delved into. It is more than what MMA is about.

I know that there are plenty of guys in MMA that practice TMA but have to strip it down to basics for sport. This relys on a certain state of mind ,spirit and body than a TMArtist or a real warrior would use.

It is very difficult to learn how to follow within a specific set of rules when normally anything goes. So any MMA guy who has never trained in TMA has an advantage over someone who does not and just learns MMA right from the beginning in a sport setting. you put a MMA guy in the setting of a real warrior or someone who does not have to follow rules but they do....they get their asses handed to them..

CMA and TMA can and do get into the ring and win and lose just like anyone else . But most guys that practice TMA or CMA do not focus on the ancient teaching while competing in sport because that is not what the sport is about . It is about money and fame ...which is not what CMA and TMA are about. It is what sport and business are all about

[djcaldwell]

Yes , forms will make you a better fighter if you know how to use them properly. They are more than just shadow boxing or just a dance . You have to know how to use them or they are just what you think they are ....useless for fighting. Do you understand how forms are used in their entirety ??Each piece needs to be brokendown for practical appilication and all the techniques can be used at the proper place and time ...if not ....it is just a dance.

Okay if you believe that forms will make you a better fighter then it is not me who does not understand their use and I will not try and convince you otherwise. But question, what would happen if heaven forbid you just practiced the applications? AH...the world might implode. I know many teachers that only teach form after application to avoid the illusion that you have falledn under.

A big reason why no one can prove it's effectiveness in the ring is because it is for martial purposes ......you know WAR!!?!? On the battlfield it is kill or be killed. All the rules of MMA prohibit the use of certain techniques that are the mainstay of CMA ........ which are going in for the kill .

You are joking right? Basically if you can't apply what you have learned in 'ANY' setting then you do not have a grasp on what it is you do. The whole it's for battlefield fighitng is nothing more than an excuse for those who are unable to adapt. David Ross I feel your pain.

It is not for sport . Yeah you can train a CMArtist to fight in the ring but that means that he does justs what everyone else is doing punching ,kicking , and grappling. Just the basics.

If your training is not all encompassing in that you can't do those things above that you mentioned then you're in for a rude awakening should you ever be confronted by someone who can. Even "basic" grappling fundamentals can make the world of difference - but of course with your deadly skills the fight would never make it to the ground.

What makes CMA more profound is the depth of psychology , philosophy and physiology that is delved into. It is more than what MMA is about.

You are no fighter - because that comment is just foolish. Have you ever stood eye to eye with someone - tell me that your psychology and philosophy are going to win the fight for you if you have never done it before. You save all your killing skills for when you need it - how do you know you can ever use them. YOU DON'T and since we don't embark on battles for our lives on a daily basis anylonger you and others are able to live in the fantasy that if you ever have to you will be able to defeat any opponent.


It is very difficult to learn how to follow within a specific set of rules when normally anything goes. So any MMA guy who has never trained in TMA has an advantage over someone who does not and just learns MMA right from the beginning in a sport setting. you put a MMA guy in the setting of a real warrior or someone who does not have to follow rules but they do....they get their asses handed to them..

Say that to Matt Hughes or Matt Serra or Rich Franklin and see how they feel about it. What do you define as a warrior? I know people who have never taken MA a day in their lives that have kicked the crap out of people who studied for years and years dilligently - he was a warrior. I would like to know what you picture a warrior to be - my family is all marines and veterans of the wars you speak of - they are warriors - so I'm really intersted in your response.

[boshea]

Actually,what I was saying that in these areas are the pressure points in which he was talking about . Actually there are more than that.

It just looked funny because everything you listed in that post was listed right above it in the text that you quoted.

This is your entire post, excluding what you quoted:


Striking to the throat, trachea, back of the head ,and spine, as well as using the tip of the elbow


Which followed this quoted text posted by me, and which contained everything that you said above:


...
The UFC rules do mention a few specific strikes that are not allowed:

- Eye gouging of any kind.
- Groin attacks of any kind.
- Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
- Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
- Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
- Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
...


I'm not calling you on the accuracy of your statement (or on your martial skill.) I don't doubt that there are many pressure points on the human body, and many more than were listed above. That list was a subset of the fouls listed on the UFC web site, since that is what was being discussed (i.e. strikes that are explicitly banned in the UFC rules). What confused me was that what you said and what you say you meant differ, in my opinion. No offense intended, just trying to learn and understand.

Thanks for the responses. This is an interesting thread.

Regards,
-brian

[kwaichang]

One cannot compare apples to oranges although they are both fruit.TMA/CMA are thousands of years old the forms are a representation of the techniques used in real combat. If one cant apply the techniques in training the will not be efficiently used in a fight. MMA is not a fight it is a sport and although the guys in it can perform their art well that does not mean they can fight. While I am sure some can that does not mean the TMA cant. I feel the level of conditioning the MMA fighter is at assists him/her in their sport and would give the illusion that they can fight. On the other hand the TMA is usually not as well cond and employs a different training strategy for their techniques. To watch a man doing forms and assume he can fight just because his/her form is good is stupid. However there is something raw about the TMA that can fight and do forms. I believe therefor that a TMA that applies the proper training principles in his training can win against a MMA fighter. due to the fact that a MA has proven war techniques and strategy at his disposal and it is not a sport if performed correctly. KC

[boshea]

One cannot compare apples to oranges although they are both fruit.TMA/CMA are thousands of years old the forms are a representation of the techniques used in real combat. If one cant apply the techniques in training the will not be efficiently used in a fight. MMA is not a fight it is a sport and although the guys in it can perform their art well that does not mean they can fight. While I am sure some can that does not mean the TMA cant. I feel the level of conditioning the MMA fighter is at assists him/her in their sport and would give the illusion that they can fight. On the other hand the TMA is usually not as well cond and employs a different training strategy for their techniques. To watch a man doing forms and assume he can fight just because his/her form is good is stupid. However there is something raw about the TMA that can fight and do forms. I believe therefor that a TMA that applies the proper training principles in his training can win against a MMA fighter. due to the fact that a MA has proven war techniques and strategy at his disposal and it is not a sport if performed correctly. KC

While this is theoretically true, I think where the MMA guys are coming from is that typical MMA training (in which sparring is an integral part, and frequently competition as well) gets pretty close to real fighting, where typical TMA training does not tend to emphasize that aspect of it. I'm not including forms competition in this. I mean fighting in competition. And it's not universal, just a tendency that many people have observed. That is not to say that TMAs aren't effective, or that a TMA practitioner can't become as effective a fighter or more so. You mention that conditioning is important, but being able to use your techniques under the pressure of a real confrontation is just as important.

It is really a numbers game. Take a look at the number of people who practice MMA, vs. the number of people who practice a TMA. I ask myself, percentage-wise which side is more slanted towards being prepared for a real fight? I think it's probably on the MMA side, mainly because what they focus on in their regular training involves a realistic confrontations.

You can have the best technique in the world, but if you have never actually practiced using it in a real confrontation where both people (or more) are really trying to defeat the other(s), it's impossible to know what it will feel like when the time comes to use that technique. I agree that many TMAs (Northern Shaolin being the only one that I have any experience with) have very effective techniques. The Shaolin monks fought off warlords, which speaks to the effectiveness of their techniques. Warlords! How many of us TMA practitioners have ever done that? So if you want to talk about comparing apples and oranges...

So, you'd think that I was one of those MMA guys the way I talk! No, but I realize that after all the years I've put into training TMA, I don't think I'm prepared for a realistic fight (yet.) So I am addressing that.

Just my opinion. Peace everybody!
-brian

[kwaichang]

MMA ring fighting is not a fight in a fight a beer mug cracks your skull and a chair over the head and a table leg in the ear. I dont see that in a MMA fight. But I guess if you want to throw a punch and roll around on a nice soft mat and try to hurt some one with those tech thats ok . But when you roll on broken glass or concrete or sticks it changes things and while most TMA dont do the bag work or the mit work you can if you want but the MMA guys and the hybrid MA guys usually dont train the other way cause they make their money that way and if they get hurt they get poor. I think if you were to put a TMA that has trained realistically and with effort and a MMA in a bar fight the TMA would fare better. If it is a 1x1 confront the MMA might do better but that can depend on environment and how many friends the opponent has. KC

[cjurakpt]

ok, now that the bruhaha has ensued, I guess I should clarify a few things

first off, I am well aware that no one specifically said SD was too deadly for UFC - there's a little known literary device known as sarcasm, perhaps some of you have heard of it?

second, I think that some people are missing the point about the comment I bolded out re: the 40 to 50 "illegal" points that would be exposed when someone does a shoot: first, when I think of a shoot, i think of a good shoot - not one where you bend forward at the waist and rush in head first; this is cr@p; a good shoot is where you drop your center and maintain your postural integrety as you come in, usually after some sort of fake, whatever; so, what that means is that, a couple of things: first, you are not exposing the back of your head, neck or upper torso (which obviates the whole notion of elbowing the back of the head as a shoot defense); you are coming in with hands up, being cautious to evade anything coming your way - so the degree of exposure, in a good shoot, is still there, but it's calculated risk and not the same as someone barreling in on you pell mell; now, this may be what you all had in mind as well - I don't know for sure, just clarifying; point is, the degree of exposure in a good shoot is not as much as in a poorly executed one

second, I'm surprised that no one picked up on the obvious contradiction of the statement about 40-50 points being exposed during a shoot which are all allegedly illegal: so here's the thing - considering just the head and shoulders, if you consider the distribution of 20 points per side of the body, well, there's no place left to hit that WOULDN'T have at least one of those points! now, far be it from me to ask someone to name and describe those points specifically, but it would be impossible NOT to hit someone in at least one of them under the described scenario;

just sayin'...

[djcaldwell]

MMA ring fighting is not a fight in a fight a beer mug cracks your skull and a chair over the head and a table leg in the ear. I dont see that in a MMA fight. But I guess if you want to throw a punch and roll around on a nice soft mat and try to hurt some one with those tech thats ok . But when you roll on broken glass or concrete or sticks it changes things and while most TMA dont do the bag work or the mit work you can if you want but the MMA guys and the hybrid MA guys usually dont train the other way cause they make their money that way and if they get hurt they get poor. I think if you were to put a TMA that has trained realistically and with effort and a MMA in a bar fight the TMA would fare better. If it is a 1x1 confront the MMA might do better but that can depend on environment and how many friends the opponent has. KC

Don't know what bars you hang out in but I'll stay away from there! I've been in bars and clubs since I was 16 years old and I've only seen one person get hit with a bottle and that's cause he was an idiot. I saw one person get cut and one person get completely stomped. All the rest and I'm talking I've seen a huge 10 on 5 brawl and yeah they go to the ground but not the other things you noted are rare occassions.

Alas I know that there is no way I'm going to shed any light on this subject for you as you will believe what you will. I've lived it and it's a harsh reality actually makes you bitter for a little while but when the reality of the situation sets in you realize that a) Kung Fu is great BUT our training and methods need some modification.

If you're (and I mean that in the general sense) not fighting different people, different styles and working outside the mindset that we have trapped ourselves in as TCMA practitioners then the art will be doomed. KF needs to grow and expand.

Good luck in your training. Just a side note when the day comes that you (again general) are faced with the reality through being tested - just try not to blame the KF itself as I have seen so many others do. Look back on the experience, see where improvement is needed what did and didn't work and build on it. That's the only way KF will continue to grow and compete in everysense in the MA world that is rapidly changing.

[boshea]

MMA ring fighting is not a fight in a fight a beer mug cracks your skull and a chair over the head and a table leg in the ear. I dont see that in a MMA fight. But I guess if you want to throw a punch and roll around on a nice soft mat and try to hurt some one with those tech thats ok . But when you roll on broken glass or concrete or sticks it changes things and while most TMA dont do the bag work or the mit work you can if you want but the MMA guys and the hybrid MA guys usually dont train the other way cause they make their money that way and if they get hurt they get poor. I think if you were to put a TMA that has trained realistically and with effort and a MMA in a bar fight the TMA would fare better. If it is a 1x1 confront the MMA might do better but that can depend on environment and how many friends the opponent has. KC

But that is what I am saying. We are in agreement about what a TMA practitioner can become. What I am saying is that this is not often born out in reality. You say that MMA guys don't train in bar fight situations where they risk being hit by beer mugs or having to fight on hard floors with broken glass. But neither do TMA guys (at least none that I know train that way.) Let's be balanced here.

What does happen is this: MMA fighters (for the most part) prepare themselves for a confrontation. TMA practitioners (for the most part) practice forms. There are exceptions on both sides. I am just stating why I think the perception is such that MMA fighters are more prepared for real-world fighting than most TMA practitioners. It doesn't matter how good your techniques are if you don't pit them against someone else's. The timing is different and the consequences of failure are higher.

This is not a matter of "MMA is better than TMA" or vice versa. This is a matter of the way that we TMA practitioners train. We can become more effective if we start training in competitive and "realistic" situations like the MMA guys do (even if our training lacks beer mugs and broken glass). It's the psychological effect that a confrontation has (and how prepared you are for it) that makes the difference, in my experience. In the times that I have gotten into confrontations that could have turned ugly (fortunately I have always been able to end them diplomatically), I might have been able to defeat the other guy with the techniques that I have learned, even though he may have been bigger than me (I was almost in such a situation recently, but those who know me know that as sure as I am given to long parenthetical statements in my posts, I am not given to violence), the one thing that consistently robbs me of my confidence has been not knowing how well my techniques will work in a real fight situation. Not being sure that I can land the strike while the other guy is fighting back. Just a moment of hesitation due to this lack of confidence might have made the difference between me being able to defend myself, or me getting stomped.

Personally I want to be prepared, and that means admitting where my training has had its shortcomings, and eliminating them.

[BentMonk]

I have seen SD used in the ring. The SD guy won by TKO. I too hate the "TCMA techniques are too deadly for the ring" cop out. If you train for the ring, you'll be able to use your techniques in the ring. I think it's obvious that no sport combat match is going to bear any resemblance to a real fight. Real fights are brief, and ugly. IMO if you put your skills to the test in the ring a few times, you will have a better understanding of what might work for you in a fight. I have no desire to be in a real fight. They're messy and have lots of consequences. Sport combat is like sparring on steroids. I also think it's good to find out how you'll really react when you take a solid hit to the dome. MMA fighters and boxers have a serious advantage over anyone in any art that doesn't train live with contact. As Ali said, "Every body's got a plan 'til they get hit." I can know 1000 deadly techniques, but if it only takes a hay maker from Bubba to drop me, what's the point? You will fight the way you train. Peace :)

[NastyHaggis]

this is the thread that never ends
it just goes on and on my friends
some people started posting here not knowing what it was
and they'll continue posting here forever just because...
(repeat from beginning)

1,000 samolians to the geek that knows where this comes from...

Barney. Now pay up sucka! LOL!

[cjurakpt]

MMA ring fighting is not a fight in a fight a beer mug cracks your skull and a chair over the head and a table leg in the ear.
so, if you are talking about context specific training, i take it that you mimic that sort of environment when you drill your techniques (you know, dark, crowded, loud, smokey, rowdy patrons, slippery floors, testosterone charged 20somethings...); if not, then you are equally at the same disadvantage

I dont see that in a MMA fight. But I guess if you want to throw a punch and roll around on a nice soft mat and try to hurt some one with those tech thats ok .
that's the way they actually are selling it these days, believe it or not "MMA - it's all about your comfort level.":rolleyes:

But when you roll on broken glass or concrete or sticks it changes things and while most TMA dont do the bag work or the mit work you can if you want but the MMA guys and the hybrid MA guys usually dont train the other way cause they make their money that way and if they get hurt they get poor. I think if you were to put a TMA that has trained realistically and with effort and a MMA in a bar fight the TMA would fare better.
what, again, does training "realistically" mean? unless you are training in the actual context, then you are not training "realistically" so to speak; in MMA, there is one major components of that "realistic" aspect present all the time, training techniques always in context (resistance) versus abstractly (forms); and most TMA guys not only don't do the contact work, they don't do the on context realistic stuff you are talking about either

If it is a 1x1 confront the MMA might do better but that can depend on environment and how many friends the opponent has. KC
look, you gotta stay consistent with your argument: what you are trying to cover for is the fact that on a BASIC level, MMA training is more realistic then pretty much all TCMA at this point, in the sense that it emphasizes immediate application of learned techniques in a resisted environment, and that it requires a greater level of physical conditioning as well; your argument seeks to downplay that by saying that this will do you no good or less good in a "real" fight situation; as for friends and whatnot - this is a HIGHLY unpredictable variable, which in the right combination will render ALL martial arts training useless

so here's the question:
(and spare me the battle field analogy - TCMA has NOTING to do with battlefield combat - mainly because battlefield combat was ALWAYS done with weapons, while wearing protective gear - really sounds more like Dog Brothers!):

what is it SPECIFICALLY about TCMA that better prepares you for a "real" fight than training MMA style? is it the techniques? how you train? what? what is this oft alluded to but never specified secret decoder ring noumenna? ("ding an sich" for you Kantians out there);

the world is dying to know...

[cjurakpt]

Barney. Now pay up sucka! LOL!

eh! (sound of wrong answer buzzer a la wrong Family Feud)

thank you for playing!

to be fair though, you are close, in the right genre - it is a kiddie show, but it's pre-Barney (think sock puppet...)

[tattooedmonk]

Okay if you believe that forms will make you a better fighter then it is not me who does not understand their use and I will not try and convince you otherwise. But question, what would happen if heaven forbid you just practiced the applications? AH...the world might implode. I know many teachers that only teach form after application to avoid the illusion that you have falledn under.



You are joking right? Basically if you can't apply what you have learned in 'ANY' setting then you do not have a grasp on what it is you do. The whole it's for battlefield fighitng is nothing more than an excuse for those who are unable to adapt. David Ross I feel your pain.



If your training is not all encompassing in that you can't do those things above that you mentioned then you're in for a rude awakening should you ever be confronted by someone who can. Even "basic" grappling fundamentals can make the world of difference - but of course with your deadly skills the fight would never make it to the ground.



You are no fighter - because that comment is just foolish. Have you ever stood eye to eye with someone - tell me that your psychology and philosophy are going to win the fight for you if you have never done it before. You save all your killing skills for when you need it - how do you know you can ever use them. YOU DON'T and since we don't embark on battles for our lives on a daily basis anylonger you and others are able to live in the fantasy that if you ever have to you will be able to defeat any opponent.




Say that to Matt Hughes or Matt Serra or Rich Franklin and see how they feel about it. What do you define as a warrior? I know people who have never taken MA a day in their lives that have kicked the crap out of people who studied for years and years dilligently - he was a warrior. I would like to know what you picture a warrior to be - my family is all marines and veterans of the wars you speak of - they are warriors - so I'm really intersted in your response. !What illussion have I fallen under??. You obviously do not know how to utilize forms properly then. what part of what I said you not understand ?? I do not think just doing forms for forms sake will make you a better fighter . Read what I wrote again. You missed somethings.

What ?? Martial arts is not for sport . It is for warfare Period . I did not say you could not adapt . It will just take longer to unlearn what you have learned.If you have a specific mind set whether it is going from doing for warfare to sport or from fitness to warfare or any other combination you can think of . You have to train with the intent that it is just for sport to be a fighter in the ring.

Trust me I can use everything I have ever learned in a fight.

I teach and practice for real world applications . We practice with a great deal of gear and lots of times people need some type of medical assistance afterwards . .

Mind you these are martial artist that do it for just that and it is any thing goes just short of maiming someone or killing them. The people that do it for social and fitness reasons are a different story.

Of course unless you use it for fighting it is not going to work in a fight but most fights are psychological and philosophical . The physical aspect is only 1/3rd of the fight. Shows how much you really know.

As for those guy they are ring warriors and in many circumstance can and would be able to fight in a real fight and prevail but they are just ring warriors.

As for military I come from a military backround. Two different arenas, fighting for your life and fighting for money and fame ....like I said two completly different things.

what is up with your reading and comprehension skils man?? why do you miss read and take everything out of the context in which it is presented??

[tattooedmonk]

It just looked funny because everything you listed in that post was listed right above it in the text that you quoted.

This is your entire post, excluding what you quoted:



Which followed this quoted text posted by me, and which contained everything that you said above:



I'm not calling you on the accuracy of your statement (or on your martial skill.) I don't doubt that there are many pressure points on the human body, and many more than were listed above. That list was a subset of the fouls listed on the UFC web site, since that is what was being discussed (i.e. strikes that are explicitly banned in the UFC rules). What confused me was that what you said and what you say you meant differ, in my opinion. No offense intended, just trying to learn and understand.

Thanks for the responses. This is an interesting thread.

Regards,
-brianpost 5097.......

[kwaichang]

You guys must be using your own half hearted traditional training and are trying to project your own experiences on others. I come from a varied back ground in MA but have found the MMA fighters to have poor kicks "for the most part" and mediocre hands at best , there are exceptions "NOW". Few win with a KO it is ground work that makes them win. That is not combat. Most fights end up on the ground well where I come from if that happens and from my experience if i take a guy to the ground I better break something and get up within 3-5 seconds or I will be clubbed by the guys buddy. This is my mental state when I train, I do forms with the mentality, unless I am nursing an injury, that I am in a realistic situation. The techniques have been passed down for a reason the were used in real situations therefore there is truth in them. So good luck and know that if you meet a truly traditional MA he does Iron Shirt , Aerobic repetition of technique chin Na and runs and fights under varied cond. Snow ice rain grass wood concrete etc etc. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

In that clip, the clearest similarity to a form I've seen in SD is Tiger/Crane.

Stop being lazy, post some more links... and come to a Norcross Wednesday Brown Belt class already.

Love to...but my schedule leaves me in certain parts of town on certain days, and that's right out.

[Shaolin Wookie]

No dude... trust me.

The honest simularites shared by CLF & SD is that both use hands to hit, feet to kick. That's about as far as that dance goes.

I know you have knowledge of both. I wasn't implying one is like the other any more than in the patterns of the forms. And how the forms move between techniques. And somtimes the tempo. Nothing else. As I said, the techniques and strikes are waaaay different.

[tattooedmonk]

You guys must be using your own half hearted traditional training and are trying to project your own experiences on others. I come from a varied back ground in MA but have found the MMA fighters to have poor kicks "for the most part" and mediocre hands at best , there are exceptions "NOW". Few win with a KO it is ground work that makes them win. That is not combat. Most fights end up on the ground well where I come from if that happens and from my experience if i take a guy to the ground I better break something and get up within 3-5 seconds or I will be clubbed by the guys buddy. This is my mental state when I train, I do forms with the mentality, unless I am nursing an injury, that I am in a realistic situation. The techniques have been passed down for a reason the were used in real situations therefore there is truth in them. So good luck and know that if you meet a truly traditional MA he does Iron Shirt , Aerobic repetition of technique chin Na and runs and fights under varied cond. Snow ice rain grass wood concrete etc etc. KC I believe we are on the same page my brother.

[Knifefighter]

LOL @ all you guys who think MMA is only about training for the ring with what are admittedly becoming more and more pansy-a$$ rules.

There is a whole contingent of MMA based fighters who are training specifically for the street with no rules... and to mess someone up badly.

You'd be surprised at the stuff they train... all the stuff you guys are talking about plus more.

You think MMA fighters can't fight in a club? There are guys who train specifically for this. Imagine getting into it with someone in a club and thinking you are about ready to have a confrontation with him, when before you have a chance to do anything, his buddy throws on a RNC on you and they break your arms or your knees while you are sleeping.

You may be training in ancient battlefield techniques, but there are MMA guys out there training for the realities of today's urban environment.

And this isn't even considering the really bad guys that are learning MMA and applying to their predator mentalities. You think grappling doesn't work for the street? Wait till you get taken down by one of these guys, mounted and have a blade shoved into your eye.

You guys are truly clueless about what's happening in the MMA scene.

[Shaolin Wookie]

After studying SD for over 15 years, studying CLF under Doc Fei Wong for the last 6 months, as well as many other reputable CMA masters I have come to the conclusion that yes SD is real Shaolin , although it has been modified and adapted for modern day usage. I admit that it has less of a "Chinese" feel to it than other syles I have done, but I would say that a few of the reasons for this are because of the large body of material that is taught and the amount of time that you have to learn it in , as well as the Indonesia importation factor.

Okay, I'm reading this hash of furious posts you've made several pages ago. You should stop right here, because this is probably the best thing you've said. You get so angry and furious and outraged that people are calling your Shaolin fake, or not CLF. Well...it's not CLF....:D....duh.......

I agree with this post 100%, and would only add that the transition to America had a huge influence, as well.

[djcaldwell]

!What illussion have I fallen under??. You obviously do not know how to utilize forms properly then. what part of what I said you not understand ?? I do not think just doing forms for forms sake will make you a better fighter . Read what I wrote again. You missed somethings.

yadda....yadda...yadda....

What ?? Martial arts is not for sport . It is for warfare

And the last time you went out fighting hand to hand for your life recently was...

Period . I did not say you could not adapt . It will just take longer to unlearn what you have learned.If you have a specific mind set whether it is going from doing for warfare to sport or from fitness to warfare or any other combination you can think of . You have to train with the intent that it is just for sport to be a fighter in the ring.

All due respect this whole statment is just stupid.


I teach and practice for real world applications . We practice with a great deal of gear and lots of times people need some type of medical assistance afterwards . .

Now your FOS - do you retain a lot of students that way. I've taught privately and in the school - privately no pads for anyone and no one, aside from a jammed finger or some serious bruising has ever had to seek emedial assistance afterwards. So either you guys are supermen or complete hacks.


Of course unless you use it for fighting it is not going to work in a fight but most fights are psychological and philosophical . The physical aspect is only 1/3rd of the fight. Shows how much you really know.

How many times have you stood toe to toe in the ring? How many times have you had to fight "for real" - oh that's right you're too deadly - I've had more fights by the time I was out of elemetary school than you've probably had in your life so spare me the psychological crap. Physical aspect is only 1/3 tell that to a drunk in a bar. There is an entirely logical discussion to be had with regard to intent and the psyche as concerns fighting - but I'm not wasting it on you.

As for those guy they are ring warriors and in many circumstance can and would be able to fight in a real fight and prevail but they are just ring warriors.

YOU ARE CONTRADICTING YOURSELF...Either they can or they can't they're sport or they're warriors...now they are ring warriors and can and would be ablet to fight in a real fight - but they are still ring warriors to a true warrior like yourself.

So again, how many times have you stood in the ring? I'm sure you've stared down many fights - or did they just get tired of you talking about what your going to do to them if you weren't so lethal.

As for military I come from a military backround. Two different arenas, fighting for your life and fighting for money and fame ....like I said two completly different things.

Now you have military experience too...

So between your profile disappearing - and stating so you became a 15 year SD practitioner who still hasn't acquired any CLF knowledge...Oh wait...you have studied with DFW for 6 months so you know all about CLF now. Your understanding and ability to seperate the applications from forms and understanding of CMA is too much for me. 15 1/2 years (I'll add the 6months for ya) on top of your now Military Background...I shy in comparison and to find out that on top of it all you're teaching people this greatness (when they are not in the hospital of course) is just to much for me.

I'll concede to your greatness and try to apply your wisdom to my own pathetic training. Thank you.

[tattooedmonk]

LOL @ all you guys who think MMA is only about training for the ring.

There is a whole contingent of MMA based fighters who are training specifically for the street with no rules... and to mess someone up badly.

You'd be surprised at the stuff they train... all the stuff you guys are talking about plus more.

You think MMA fighters can't fight in a club. There are guys who train specifically for this. Imagine getting into it with someone in a club and thinking you are about ready to have a confrontation with him, when before you have a chance to do anything, his buddy throws on a RNC on you and they break your arms or your knees while you are sleeping.

You may be training in ancient battlefield techniques, but there are MMA guys out there training for the realities of today's urban environment.

And this isn't even considering the really bad guys that are learning MMA and applying to their predator mentalities. You think grappling doesn't work for the street? Wait till you get taken down one of these guys, mounted and have a blade shoved into your eye.

You guys are truly clueless about what's happening in the MMA scene. we were just talking about guys who do mixed martial arts for the ring. I agree there are guys who train for urban warfare and bar fights who do MMA but these numbers are few. I train with this mentality....and as far as I am concernd Shaolin is a mixed martial art. Look at the history and you will see this is correct. grppling works on the street for a short period of time m. Most people use this as a fall back because they can not stand and fight.....but no one is going to come along and say uncle and no ref is goiing to stop the fight. and you do not have the same limitations in areal fight that you do in the ring. Most MMa schools now just practice for sport and fitness and for their egos..... I train for all that tooo but I also train to defend my life and the ones I love.

[Shaolin Wookie]

As I'm sure many will agree - the "secret" is that there is not real secret. Anyone who tells you they are going to teach you "secrets" is nonsense.

Every CMA school I've ever visited is thereby nonsense. Every CMA school I've seen, from Wing Chun, to Hung Gar, to Hop Gar, to Shaolin Chuan (northern longfist school)....they all had secret styles. It's a part of the marketing.....hahahaha.....why does anyone think it's a big deal?

[cjurakpt]

LOL @ all you guys who think MMA is only about training for the ring with what are admittedly becoming more and more pansy-a$$ rules.

There is a whole contingent of MMA based fighters who are training specifically for the street with no rules... and to mess someone up badly.

You'd be surprised at the stuff they train... all the stuff you guys are talking about plus more.

You think MMA fighters can't fight in a club. There are guys who train specifically for this. Imagine getting into it with someone in a club and thinking you are about ready to have a confrontation with him, when before you have a chance to do anything, his buddy throws on a RNC on you and they break your arms or your knees while you are sleeping.

You may be training in ancient battlefield techniques, but there are MMA guys out there training for the realities of today's urban environment.

And this isn't even considering the really bad guys that are learning MMA and applying to their predator mentalities. You think grappling doesn't work for the street? Wait till you get taken down by one of these guys, mounted and have a blade shoved into your eye.

You guys are truly clueless about what's happening in the MMA scene.

welcome to the real world...sounds a lot like what the TCMA purists are touting as the basis for what they do - except that was long ago and far away...

[Knifefighter]

welcome to the real world...sounds a lot like what the TCMA purists are touting as the basis for what they do - except that was long ago and far away...

Yeah, and the MMA "street" guys are using modern training methods instead of old, out-dated ones like forms.

[djcaldwell]

Every CMA school I've ever visited is thereby nonsense. Every CMA school I've seen, from Wing Chun, to Hung Gar, to Hop Gar, to Shaolin Chuan (northern longfist school)....they all had secret styles. It's a part of the marketing.....hahahaha.....why does anyone think it's a big deal?

Then I consider myself very fortunate to have only been taught by people like my Sifu who flat out said there are not secrets - no special things to learn - just you're not ready for that yet.

And of course told me what you're saying now that it's basically what they tell students to keep them interested. You can't leave you haven't learned the secret handshake yet!!

[Judge Pen]

While this is theoretically true, I think where the MMA guys are coming from is that typical MMA training (in which sparring is an integral part, and frequently competition as well) gets pretty close to real fighting, where typical TMA training does not tend to emphasize that aspect of it. I'm not including forms competition in this. I mean fighting in competition. And it's not universal, just a tendency that many people have observed. That is not to say that TMAs aren't effective, or that a TMA practitioner can't become as effective a fighter or more so. You mention that conditioning is important, but being able to use your techniques under the pressure of a real confrontation is just as important.

It is really a numbers game. Take a look at the number of people who practice MMA, vs. the number of people who practice a TMA. I ask myself, percentage-wise which side is more slanted towards being prepared for a real fight? I think it's probably on the MMA side, mainly because what they focus on in their regular training involves a realistic confrontations.

You can have the best technique in the world, but if you have never actually practiced using it in a real confrontation where both people (or more) are really trying to defeat the other(s), it's impossible to know what it will feel like when the time comes to use that technique. I agree that many TMAs (Northern Shaolin being the only one that I have any experience with) have very effective techniques. The Shaolin monks fought off warlords, which speaks to the effectiveness of their techniques. Warlords! How many of us TMA practitioners have ever done that? So if you want to talk about comparing apples and oranges...

So, you'd think that I was one of those MMA guys the way I talk! No, but I realize that after all the years I've put into training TMA, I don't think I'm prepared for a realistic fight (yet.) So I am addressing that.

Just my opinion. Peace everybody!
-brian

I am seeing both sides of this argument and what you say is very true. The trouble with TMA is that there in many schools, there is a lack of realistic sparring, or, to take KC's point to heart, a lack of more realsitic training. At the same time, the unexpected and the unfair are integral parts of any "real" encounter and that is very difficult to simulate in a school or in a ring. But the better you are at keeping your head and your cool in a competitive environment can only serve you well in an unrestricted encounter.

[djcaldwell]

Yeah, and the MMA "street" guys are using modern training methods instead of old, out-dated ones like forms.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO... Did you just say that forms training won't give me what I need to beat these guys. You must not understand how to use them either.;)

[djcaldwell]

we were just talking about guys who do mixed martial arts for the ring. I agree there are guys who train for urban warfare and bar fights who do MMA but these numbers are few. I train with this mentality....and as far as I am concernd Shaolin is a mixed martial art. Look at the history and you will see this is correct. grppling works on the street for a short period of time m. Most people use this as a fall back because they can not stand and fight.....but no one is going to come along and say uncle and no ref is goiing to stop the fight. and you do not have the same limitations in areal fight that you do in the ring. Most MMa schools now just practice for sport and fitness and for their egos..... I train for all that tooo but I also train to defend my life and the ones I love.

All I can say is AHHHHRRRGGG!!!

[tattooedmonk]

[QUOTE=tattooedmonk;768696]!What illussion have I fallen under??. You obviously do not know how to utilize forms properly then. what part of what I said you not understand ?? I do not think just doing forms for forms sake will make you a better fighter . Read what I wrote again. You missed somethings.

[QUOTE]

And the last time you went out fighting hand to hand for your life recently was...



All due respect this whole statment is just stupid.




Now your FOS - do you retain a lot of students that way. I've taught privately and in the school - privately no pads for anyone and no one, aside from a jammed finger or some serious bruising has ever had to seek emedial assistance afterwards. So either you guys are supermen or complete hacks.




How many times have you stood toe to toe in the ring? How many times have you had to fight "for real" - oh that's right you're too deadly - I've had more fights by the time I was out of elemetary school than you've probably had in your life so spare me the psychological crap. Physical aspect is only 1/3 tell that to a drunk in a bar. There is an entirely logical discussion to be had with regard to intent and the psyche as concerns fighting - but I'm not wasting it on you.



YOU ARE CONTRADICTING YOURSELF...Either they can or they can't they're sport or they're warriors...now they are ring warriors and can and would be ablet to fight in a real fight - but they are still ring warriors to a true warrior like yourself.

So again, how many times have you stood in the ring? I'm sure you've stared down many fights - or did they just get tired of you talking about what your going to do to them if you weren't so lethal.



Now you have military experience too...

So between your profile disappearing - and stating so you became a 15 year SD practitioner who still hasn't acquired any CLF knowledge...Oh wait...you have studied with DFW for 6 months so you know all about CLF now. Your understanding and ability to seperate the applications from forms and understanding of CMA is too much for me. 15 1/2 years (I'll add the 6months for ya) on top of your now Military Background...I shy in comparison and to find out that on top of it all you're teaching people this greatness (when they are not in the hospital of course) is just to much for me.

I'll concede to your greatness and try to apply your wisdome to my own pathetic training. Thank you. I train with guys who are in the military now who practice the art that I learned and have taught them ( shaolin) and we do go at it until ........?

Like I wrote ( which you seem to always distort and misread) that people who do it for fitness and socialablity is something different. I KEEP THAT SEPERATE.

Actually I have 25 years experience in martial arts and 15+ is in SD. I have a mind and an eye for martial arts techniques and see what others can not. with 25 years experience and plenty of fight experience I would say I should know the differences in style and their similarities.

Did I say they go to the Hospital ?? No I said medical attention. Do you not know the difference .....First aid is medical attention .

the key word being CAN but do they ...no ! Why?? Because they would not risk their lives or reputation in some street or bar fight. and if they were real warrior( there is a difference ) then they would be over in Iraq or Afganistan or some place else putting it all on the line.

My profile disappearing?? I never had my profile up .

Here I may sound like I am all talk ...but on the streets and in the gym I am all business

The last thing you wrote was the smartest thing you have the whole time ....thanks.

[Shaolin Wookie]

yes, I'd like to comment on that -

this "set" showed a total lack of any comprehension of how either weapon is supposed to be used; it lacked all but the most basic types of exchanges, and even those were poorly organized; the way the set was structured was that one person purely attacked and the other only defended for a number of moves, and then it reversed - this is the antithesis of how every other 2-person TCMA weapon set I've seen or learned works (I've seen one or two in my time); additionally, neither weapon was used properly in terms of the ranges and how each one handles the other when in their range of strength (e.g. - what do you do with a broadsword against a spear at long range to get into short range, and what does the spear player then do when fighting at short range)

I say nothing per se about the "skill" of the performers (which was pretty low), because some will no doubt say some schools and practitioners are beter than others, etc.; fine - I am talking about the content of the form purely on a technical level

some will argue against this based on the fact that I am not a high ranking SD blackbelt, that I am missing the "inner essence" of the forms, etc.

it's very simple: you can try to deflect the reality with all sort sorts of qualifiers, attacking the poster, etc.; bottom line is that, if you don't get why that set was totally lame, then you are beyond my personal powers of persuasion; I also can recommend another weapon set that you would no doubt find to be of very high level...
http://www.tigerkungfu.com/videos/Emei.html


Man, you guys are just silly. What's in those videos? It's a bunch of Shaolin Do practitioners of varying levels out in a park, having fun performing what they know and do. Some are good, some aren't as good. They're not forms competitors. They're average joes, some are exceptional joes, displaying their knowledge. I'm sure they'll be the first to admit they aren't perfect. But I am impressed by several of their demos. I think anyone who can use a chain whip and a broadsword at the same time deserves mad respect. I have that double dagger form, and I'm a first brown. I'd wager mine looks 10X better, but maybe it's because I practice mine more. He was displaying something he knew at whatever level he did, because they were looking for vareity. Is the guy a double dagger masteR? Probably not. Were any of them master's of what they were doing? Maybe. And I guarantee that all of them know they can improve, and probably like the forms they perform because they find new ways to improve them. I've seen the 5 animals guy do that form in several videos. He obviously loves that form. Is he perfect at it? I don't know it, but I'll guarantee he's not, and he'll admit it. BUt he loves it, and probably loves to share his love for it.

This was not the Chinese National or World Championships forms competition......

You guys are so **** silly, it makes me laugh.

I've attended a wushu, northern longfist school. They drilled their forms to look good. And you know what? They did. But they knew absolutely **** about fighting. And when the senior student ran through a broadsword form that looked nicer than mine, but didn't contain a single technique that wasn't in mine, and wasn't as long as mine---when he got finished, he was winded and breathing hard. There was no cardio outside the forms, and no physical conditioning. Just stretching and forms. No drills. Their forms looked good, structurally, but that was about it. But they weren't conditioned to use them.

You train according to your like. I llike SD's training.

There's already the infamous Wing Chun incident here in Atlanta that I caught an ass-chewing from (in this thread), when I said I visited a pretty well respected WC school and slapped the assistant instructor (a black sash with as much experience in his art as I have in mine) silly as he explained to me the mechanics of proper fighting. He asked me to use all of my training against his Biu Jee (spelling?) techniques in a friendly sparring match, and I ended up slapping him around because I had already split his lip when I connected a little too hard, and felt bad. His form was excellent. But I don't think he understood what he was doing. He acted as if I was going to play his game, which I wasn't. Fine, trap my hands (he was good at that), then punch....but I'm not just going to stand there. I can high block and punch, which I did, and split his lip if I want to (I didn't, but that was the result). CMA is a world filled with neurotic people. This web board seems to attract all of them....hahaha...myself included.

In my capoeira school where I cross-train, people explain to me the mechanics of fighting. I listen. I don't argue. But none of them have ever sparred. They've been in the roda, where you actually try not to hit someone. Yes, their kicks are fantastic. And the strength of capoeira is in learning to read the opponent and anticipate his moves before he makes them, and judging lightning quick how to dodge a malalua (spelling?) before it takes your head off.

But sparring with contact is different, and if I don't create openings, their knowledge base of what to do is so ridiculous, it makes me laugh a little inside as they tell me how I can whirlwind kick someone before they see it coming.

But I'll tell you this as well. The mestre of the school could kill me where I stand before I had a second to consider what my life had meant to me up to the moment I laid down the challenge of a death match.

You train according to your like, according to what you like.

If your'e good, you're good. But I've seen the mestre stumble. I've seen my instructors stumble and forget. And if you're not a forms competitor, looking for pure aesthetic, your form's never gonna be the standard. I guarantee that people in other arts (this I know, from having looked at so many arts in person in the last 6 months from various cultures, mostly CMA)--aren't perfect. It's the same cross-section you see in SD.

Get over yourselves....hahaha.....

[tattooedmonk]

All I can say is AHHHHRRRGGG!!!No , we were talking about MMA ring fighters then MMA street fighter they are two different things as well.....moron. Once again just picking out what you want and leaving the rest . you been hit too many times in the head or something.

[djcaldwell]

No , we were talking about MMA ring fighters then MMA street fighter they are two different things as well.....moron. Once again just picking out what you want and leaving the rest . you been hit too many times in the head or something.

Everything with you is two, three and four different things.

I've already conceded to your vast martial ability. Carry on.

[tattooedmonk]

Everything with you is two, three and four different things.

I've already conceded to your vast martial ability. Carry on. the greater and lesser aspects of yin and yang .( 4) Heaven , animals , earth, ( 3) yin yang(2) (1 )is all things united and 0 is all things whole. Thanks again for playing.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Then I consider myself very fortunate to have only been taught by people like my Sifu who flat out said there are not secrets - no special things to learn - just you're not ready for that yet.

And of course told me what you're saying now that it's basically what they tell students to keep them interested. You can't leave you haven't learned the secret handshake yet!!

There's even a secret handshake in capoeira. I know it, and you don't. If you study its history, you'd know why.

Like SD....I laugh with glee as I write this....capoeira was outlawed from being practiced, but people got together in dark alleys and did it anyways.

Who cares if it's just to keep people interested? It's marketing. It just means that your Sifu isn't capitalizing on the market to the fullest effect.:D

[djcaldwell]

Who cares if it's just to keep people interested? It's marketing. It just means that your Sifu isn't capitalizing on the market to the fullest effect.:D

Capitalizing on the market and BS'ing people are not the same. Actually, his schools gross close to $50K a month. I want to miss out like he is!!:)

[cjurakpt]

Man, you guys are just silly. What's in those videos? It's a bunch of Shaolin Do practitioners of varying levels out in a park, having fun performing what they know and do. Some are good, some aren't as good. etc.
you really need to work on your reading comprehension; in my original post that you quoted in its entirety but obviously did not read through, I stated very clearly that I was not talking about the skill of the individual performers, I was talking about the TECHNICAL CONTENT of the spear vs. sword form; interesting that for all your diatribe and explanations about why individual practitioners may or may not look better than others, you seem to have completely neglected the entire point of my post; I'm beginning to get a feel for SD evasion technique (or maybe it's your capoeira esquivas training)...

Like SD....I laugh with glee as I write this....capoeira was outlawed from being practiced, but people got together in dark alleys and did it anyways.
you laugh with glee as you write about SD people getting together in dark alleys and "doing it"?
:rolleyes:
well anyway, given the cramped space and low lighting conditions, it would go a long way towards explaining what we've seen...

[cjurakpt]

BTW, I'm really just trying to push the thread up past 350 pages...

[Golden Tiger]

Capitalizing on the market and BS'ing people are not the same. Actually, his schools gross close to $50K a month. I want to miss out like he is!!


Looks like I am in the wrong line of work! This fellow is the Trump of all MA's!:D

[djcaldwell]

Looks like I am in the wrong line of work! This fellow is the Trump of all MA's!:D

Actually that would be Tiger Schulman...for now :)!!

[djcaldwell]

BTW, I'm really just trying to push the thread up past 350 pages...

I'll be up for a while - think we could make 350 tonight - I just have to start responding to GomerPile again and we're there.

[Knifefighter]

No , we were talking about MMA ring fighters then MMA street fighter they are two different things as well.....

Not necessarily.

[sean_stonehart]

I know you have knowledge of both. I wasn't implying one is like the other any more than in the patterns of the forms. And how the forms move between techniques. And somtimes the tempo. Nothing else. As I said, the techniques and strikes are waaaay different.

Gotcha... :D

[xcakid]

BTW, I'm really just trying to push the thread up past 350 pages...



Hell, I am trying to get the USSD thread to catch up to this one. Problem is, no one wants to defend USSD. If they do, they pretty don't have much of an argument.

[SenseiShellie]

Hell, I am trying to get the USSD thread to catch up to this one. Problem is, no one wants to defend USSD. If they do, they pretty don't have much of an argument.

LOL! So true...

[sunfist]

What do you know about SD?? Do you have a high rank in it, have you practiced it for a long period of time ,have you been to advanced black belt seminars?? How many forms do you know??

I am actually the real gradmaster of shaolin do, as is verified by my lineage of people nobody but my sect has ever heard of, which is very similar to your equally unverifiable lineage, but obviously shorter, thus making me the grandmaster.

[Lamassu]

I am actually the real gradmaster of shaolin do, as is verified by my lineage of people nobody but my sect has ever heard of, which is very similar to your equally unverifiable lineage, but obviously shorter, thus making me the grandmaster.

You are so funny! Oh my god, I can't believe how hilarious that is! You should do stand up, you're just outrageous! Wow, I haven't laughed this hard since Bruce Lee died! :D

[sunfist]

Im glad we see eye to eye on these things.

[tattooedmonk]

SH!T.......:rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

...a whole bunch of mantis videos in the video thread on this forum.

I have to say that a lot a people talk trash about SD and our lack of real CMA material , understanding , etc., but specifically mantis.

I have no idea why when as I can see they are the same forms,( refering to the ones which have been released),and these guys are worse than anyone in SD that I have ever seen.

And you guys think that these are Good??

Do not get me wrong I saw a lot of impressive videos as well, but come on there are good and bad in everything .
( yinyang principle) .

I also have noticed that when it come to people criticizing your styles on the same things you guys talk trash about us you justify it and give the same explanations we have. What is the difference??

Oh that is right we do not practice real Shaolin , CMA , or Kung Fu.:rolleyes:

[BentMonk]

I've said many times that if someone with good form from SD posted vids on this forum they would not receive a fair review. Too many knee jerk "oh it's SD it sucks" reactions. It's too bad that most in SD who have great form totally do not care about this discussion. I'd post vids of myself, but my form would suck even if it wasn't adapted to suit my CP. :D

[cjurakpt]

I've said many times that if someone with good form from SD posted vids on this forum they would not receive a fair review. Too many knee jerk "oh it's SD it sucks" reactions. It's too bad that most in SD who have great form totally do not care about this discussion. I'd post vids of myself, but my form would suck even if it wasn't adapted to suit my CP. :D

nice set-up, but it's a straw man argument: in other words, pre-supposing that the rationale behind a negative comment is because of the context instead of the content is a thinly veiled attempt to "head off at the pass" someone with a valid criticism; for example, if you read my commentary on a video of a broadsword vs. spear set (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782&page=338), you will see that I say nothing about the skill of the participants nor about whether it is "real" Shaolin or not and I draw no conclusions about SD in general; my comments focused soley its technical aspects, e.g. - whether the weapons were being used in a way that, given their respective characteristics, made sense in terms of strategic combat useage; interestingly enough, the rebuttles came only in the form of comments to the effect of "oh, you can't judge SD by people whose skill level is low, etc."; again, the skill of the practitioners can be low or high, but it doesn't change the content of the form: illogical moves with a weapon are as such regardless of how well they are done, and quite frankly, most of the moves were illogical: for example, there is no range changing in the form at all: a major component of 2-person sets is to get both practitioners to learn how to use their weapon in a range that is inherently less advantageous (e.g. - spears at short range, swords at long range), and also how to get themselves out of that and back into the optimal range; Idon't care who you are or what style you do, if you don't have that aspect as part of a two-man weapons set you are wasting your time - and this is true even for basic 2-man sets, so don't pull up the "it's a beginner's 2-person" BS excuse;

BTW, there's one other thing I've noticed: every vid that does get posted, the SD supporters to a man decry it as a bad example of SD; would one of the SD authorities kindly provide a link to what they consider to be a good example?

[tattooedmonk]

nice set-up, but it's a straw man argument: in other words, pre-supposing that the rationale behind a negative comment is because of the context instead of the content is a thinly veiled attempt to "head off at the pass" someone with a valid criticism; for example, if you read my commentary on a video of a broadsword vs. spear set (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782&page=338), you will see that I say nothing about the skill of the participants nor about whether it is "real" Shaolin or not and I draw no conclusions about SD in general; my comments focused soley its technical aspects, e.g. - whether the weapons were being used in a way that, given their respective characteristics, made sense in terms of strategic combat useage; interestingly enough, the rebuttles came only in the form of comments to the effect of "oh, you can't judge SD by people whose skill level is low, etc."; again, the skill of the practitioners can be low or high, but it doesn't change the content of the form: illogical moves with a weapon are as such regardless of how well they are done, and quite frankly, most of the moves were illogical: for example, there is no range changing in the form at all: a major component of 2-person sets is to get both practitioners to learn how to use their weapon in a range that is inherently less advantageous (e.g. - spears at short range, swords at long range), and also how to get themselves out of that and back into the optimal range; Idon't care who you are or what style you do, if you don't have that aspect as part of a two-man weapons set you are wasting your time - and this is true even for basic 2-man sets, so don't pull up the "it's a beginner's 2-person" BS excuse;

BTW, there's one other thing I've noticed: every vid that does get posted, the SD supporters to a man decry it as a bad example of SD; would one of the SD authorities kindly provide a link to what they consider to be a good example? I am not saying some of the criticisms are not valid, just that they are excused and justified by others who are not in SD and are doing the same things in their arts and forms. I am talking about the same things you are in this post and just because they are with some well known master or any of the other reasons they are excused but not in SD.

Why ??

They will not post forms because they will get sued, they have the threat of law suit , striping of their rank hanging over their head if they do, and / getting kicked out , losing friends,or they just do not care about this forum and what anyone thinks about how it looks as long as it is effective .

I will not lower myself to say that it is a beginners 2 man set . Most people do not have the time to rehearse/ practice the set with anyone person consistantly, they constantly have to change partners, and plus they have no clue as to what you are talking about here ,which I totally agree with and agreed with you back in post 5067.Plus most people in CSC are hobbiest and do it for health and for a social activity and basically buy their belts and do not earn them .Even at black belt.

IMHO this sucks and is a discrace to the Art, Master Sin and the lineage.But it is partly his fault. Now it is a mostly just business , how many forms are obtained, etc. The Soards do not care about it like they used to.

[cjurakpt]

I am not saying some of the criticisms are not valid, just that they are excused and justified by others who are not in SD and are doing the same things in their arts and forms. I am talking about the same things you are in this post and just because they are with some well known master or any of the other reasons they are excused but not in SD.

Why ??

They will not post forms because they will get sued, they have the threat of law suit , striping of their rank hanging over their head if they do, and / getting kicked out , losing friends,or they just do not care about this forum and what anyone thinks about how it looks as long as it is effective .

I will not lower myself to say that it is a beginners 2 man set . Most people do not have the time to rehearse/ practice the set with anyone person consistantly, they constantly have to change partners, and plus they have no clue as to what you are talking about here ,which I totally agree with and agreed with you back in post 5067.Plus most people in CSC are hobbiest and do it for health and for a social activity and basically buy their belts and do not earn them .Even at black belt.

IMHO this sucks and is a discrace to the Art, Master Sin and the lineage.But it is partly his fault. Now it is a mostly just business , how many forms are obtained, etc. The Soards do not care about it like they used to.

ok, you make some valid points; but first off, I must say that if the reason someone is not posting forms is because they are under threat of reprisal, legal or othewise, that's pretty sad: I mean, who really cares? what are they paranoid about? someone seeing the form and stealing some hidden secrets? gimmie a break; or, as my teacher says, let someone see everything he's got, good luck trying to reproduce the essence; it's pretty silly...

anyway, the bottom line is that the form I saw was sorely lacking in terms of intrinsic value, regardless of who was doing it or how many partners they were doing it with: theoretically, that shouldn't matter; of course, if the content has been watered down to fit the performer, that's understandable - and nothing new! to wit: Master Yang Lu Chan did quite a bit of accommodation for his students who were nobility - now, 150 years later, his watering down has become authentic tradition! so , maybe in another 150 the CSC forms will be the same...

that said, I would still like to see at least ONE example of a SD form that cannot be dis-qualified by saying that the practitioner was butchering it or what not: is there not at least one person out there who can post even 15 seconds doing an SD form the way it's supposed to be done?

[tattooedmonk]

when I get my computer fixed I plan to post some videos.

[WhiteEarp]

Master Yang Lu Chan did quite a bit of accommodation for his students who were nobility - now, 150 years later, his watering down has become authentic tradition! so , maybe in another 150 the CSC forms will be the same...



Hmm, the arts are dying out i guess. That's what is happening to our art. Masters don't tell their students everything.
Because students who are not ready to use certain powers cannot be trusted with them and thus become a danger for their fellow students and their master.
So some secrets die in the grave.

And each generation lacks a little bit of the original knowledge.
So today it becomes a sport for athletes. True knowledge gone with the wind. Or is it?

There are some masters who "Rediscover" certain secrets.
And this will allways be the circle.
Some things get lost until found again.
And people who have the ability to rediscover those secrets are the people who are ready to use them.

So, don't abandon all hope yet!

[Judge Pen]

Hmm, the arts are dying out i guess. That's what is happening to our art. Masters don't tell their students everything.
Because students who are not ready to use certain powers cannot be trusted with them and thus become a danger for their fellow students and their master.
So some secrets die in the grave.

And each generation lacks a little bit of the original knowledge.
So today it becomes a sport for athletes. True knowledge gone with the wind. Or is it?

There are some masters who "Rediscover" certain secrets.
And this will allways be the circle.
Some things get lost until found again.
And people who have the ability to rediscover those secrets are the people who are ready to use them.

So, don't abandon all hope yet!


Did you get more pics together or even some clips of the forms that Master Ie taught your teacher? We were waiting for that info.

[BentMonk]

cjurakpt - Your points are valid, and you weren't style bashing. Unfortunately you are the exception rather than the rule. I, like TTM have noticed that the same critiques that are used to slam SD are overlooked in vids from more accepted styles. I'm not sure why this is, but that's how it is and likely always will be.

[brucereiter]

ok, you make some valid points; but first off, I must say that if the reason someone is not posting forms is because they are under threat of reprisal, legal or othewise, that's pretty sad: I mean, who really cares? what are they paranoid about? someone seeing the form and stealing some hidden secrets? gimmie a break; or, as my teacher says, let someone see everything he's got, good luck trying to reproduce the essence; it's pretty silly...

anyway, the bottom line is that the form I saw was sorely lacking in terms of intrinsic value, regardless of who was doing it or how many partners they were doing it with: theoretically, that shouldn't matter; of course, if the content has been watered down to fit the performer, that's understandable - and nothing new! to wit: Master Yang Lu Chan did quite a bit of accommodation for his students who were nobility - now, 150 years later, his watering down has become authentic tradition! so , maybe in another 150 the CSC forms will be the same...

that said, I would still like to see at least ONE example of a SD form that cannot be dis-qualified by saying that the practitioner was butchering it or what not: is there not at least one person out there who can post even 15 seconds doing an SD form the way it's supposed to be done?

HI ...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9nJ3vwcR1EQ

THIS IS ME:-)

ya get more than 15 seconds.

enjoy ... any constructive comments are welcome.

[Yao Sing]

Props for putting yourself out there but I was hoping to see some Shaolin Kung Fu a la Shaolin Do. Maybe some of that Hua or a bird set we always hear about.

Something with some good apps. Anyone got a clip like that worth watching? (I'll let the internal guys post feedback on your clips)

[MasterKiller]

cjurakpt - Your points are valid, and you weren't style bashing. Unfortunately you are the exception rather than the rule. I, like TTM have noticed that the same critiques that are used to slam SD are overlooked in vids from more accepted styles. I'm not sure why this is, but that's how it is and likely always will be.

Don't use lame excuses, BM. You're tougher than that.

[BoulderDawg]

Hmm, the arts are dying out i guess. That's what is happening to our art. Masters don't tell their students everything.
Because students who are not ready to use certain powers cannot be trusted with them and thus become a danger for their fellow students and their master.
So some secrets die in the grave.

That is if these mystical magical deadly skills ever existed in the first place. Something tells me the truth was a lot different.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

This is all I am going to say about Shao-lin-Do. It's a compound word that begins with a B and ends in a T. The word is 8 letters long. Can you guess what word it is boys and girls? Hint: the 2 of the two words rhymes with "Hit".

I knew you could guess it boys and girls...:)

I was talking to this guy in a Thai restaurant about 3 months ago in the bar area. I order my second beer(Tsing-Tao--good stuff) and the guy sits down. We start talking about assorted odds and ends about the world,etc.

Somehow we get on the subject of Martial arts. He starts telling me "Well the Shao-lin system has 900 styles..the grandmaster of our system Sin Kwang The learned all 900" :eek::eek::eek::eek::

I say "Well..I think you've been misinformed..shaolin is a PLACE..not a style";)

Him: "I beg to differ. Sin Kwang The learned all 900 styles. He should know..he told us so":rolleyes:

Me: " A style is composed of forms. Forms are composed of patterns. Patterns are composed of individual moves. Are you saying he learned 900 forms"?

Him: "He learned the whole SHAO-LIN system"

Me: reiterating what I last said. Then I add: "To give you an example. There is a style known as Choy Li Fut. It has in some lineages..close to 200 forms. Even if each of the 900 styles you claim that Sin Kwang The learned only had 2 forms per style..that would be 1800 forms to learn. If there were a standard number of 10 forms per style that would be 9,000 forms. Unless he started studying at birth and lived to 400 years old and practiced all of those 400 years..learning even 1800 forms much less 9,000 is impossible." :p

Him: "If you don't believe me you can schedule a consultation. Our head instructor will be happy to explain it to you"

Me: "So..who do you think is going to win the next Presidential election"? :rolleyes:

[BlueTravesty]

I've said many times that if someone with good form from SD posted vids on this forum they would not receive a fair review. Too many knee jerk "oh it's SD it sucks" reactions. It's too bad that most in SD who have great form totally do not care about this discussion. I'd post vids of myself, but my form would suck even if it wasn't adapted to suit my CP. :D

Then the trick is to choose someone to represent your style, post a vid, and DON'T TELL ANYONE IT'S SHAOLIN DO. And wear some non-gi form of clothing. T shirt and sweats is just fine for any sort of extra-curricular martial art practice. That way, if it's one of these "excellent" SD performances that looks soooo much better than all these chumps (who've been practicing mantis and little else for the entirety of their involvement in martial arts ) we won't be able to tell the difference.
...
Right?

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Blue,

Do I detect a looking down your nose stance at people who study mantis?(as I do?)..and I might add..Mantis is not originally part of Shaolin..the actual shaolin temple..not SD...

[Shaolin Wookie]

No, the trick is to actually say: Yes, this is Shaolin-Do.

Don't deny. Embrace.:D

It doesn't matter whether the people in the vids are experienced or not. If they do sparring tech 1, and do it crappy, it's still sparring tech 1 of Shaolin-Do.

Their skill doesn't make it more or less Shaolin-Do.

If we have two videos, one of a form performed beautifully, and one of it performed crappily, it's still the same material.

IF we have two videos, one where the practitioner understands everything he's doing and moves fluidly with purpose, and one where the practitioner just snaps technique, bends his back, and violates training principles to get shoddily-enforced power, it's still the same material. (I had this happen recently: Someone far better than I martially and of much higher rank, who knows the techs and apps, still showed me how to get snap in a form, but violated some defense principles I don't in my forms, and I wasn't sure how to take it, b/c the Master of the school drilled me in those principles to get me out of cheating for snap, and the MAster's make faaaaar more sense).

But if Shaolin-Do produces only crappy videos, it would lead people to believe that nobody understands anything they're doing, and move choppily without directed purpose.

If any Shaolin Do practitioners backbite other SD vids, it's really a ****ty thing to do. If they don't post vids of themselves, yet insist on the importance of showcasing talent, which it seems some of the SD practitioners here do, and are confident of their understanding of the forms, and the content of them, what's the roadblock?

It's a MA forum, not Showtime at the Apollo. Bruce posted a vid (I didn't watch it, yet). He didn't get eviscerated. Sure, some A-hole might start trolling, but who cares? Bruce seems like a down-to-earth guy, and big enough to enforce for himself:cool:. I'm sure he wouldn't get miffed.

Honestly, if I had a digital cam, I wouldn't really care whether one person here thought I sucked. I'm demonstrating my knowledge of something. If I don't know it, then I don't know it. If I do it crappy, I do it crappy. But if I know one movement in a form, or one sequence, and I know it well, and I have fantastic purpose in that sequence, then props to me. PErhaps one day I might have it for the entire form, or all 900:p:D......just kiddin'....

[Shaolin Wookie]

Seriously.....when martial artists get together, they can be worse than a sewing circle.

And when they're on the internet, they can be as foppish as American Idol.

[Chain Whip]

most of the moves were illogical: for example, there is no range changing in the form at all: a major component of 2-person sets is to get both practitioners to learn how to use their weapon in a range that is inherently less advantageous (e.g. - spears at short range, swords at long range), and also how to get themselves out of that and back into the optimal range;

I hate to say this - but cjurakpt is right. The problem is how poorly is was taught/performed. All of the traits outlined DO exist in that form - just not in that rendition. This form is one of those SD forms that can be found move for move in book. ---Please save the tired arguements about if it can be found in book then GM The' must have got it from the book. Because the other fun arguement is if it can't be found in a book then it isn't traditional CMA and either GM The' made it up or it is an Indonsian form.

This form was originally taught move for move - exactly as it is displayed in "New Approach - Chinese Kung-Fu Training Methods - A Complete Course Book One" Published in Hong Kong in 1984. Written by Xi Yuntai, Zhang Wenguang, Xia Bohua, Wen Jingming and Cai Longyun - whoever they might be.

However, I suspect that if some equally untalented non- shaolin-do guys went to Hong Kong and learned the same form from one of the authors of the book and then posted an equally poor performance on YouTube it would be assessed differently. Probably it would be called a really nice form done at an acceptable level.

I have seen this form done by much faster, much more advanced, much more athletic shaolin-do guys - and it looks pretty impressive. - and no I do not have any video of a better performance.

[ninja matt]

How many break away schools do you guys have?

[BentMonk]

Don't use lame excuses, BM. You're tougher than that.

I didn't realize when I typed it how whinny my post sounded. Still, I do think there is a bit of a double standard when it comes to critiquing forms where SD is concerned. I've decided that adapted or not, I'm going to post myself on here soon. The flames will be glorious. :D Also, props to SDIC for posting himself doing Tai Chi. IMO he looks as good if not better than any other Tai Chi clip I've seen posted on here. I also notice that no one had anything to say about his clip. What gives?

[MasterKiller]

What gives?

Not many pajama-wearing hippies in the Shaolin forum. Take it to Emptyflower and see what they have to say....

[Chain Whip]

So, are you implying that Bruce is a pajama wearing hippie?

[MasterKiller]

So, are you implying that Bruce is a pajama wearing hippie?

Are you insinuating that I implied that Bruce is a pajama wearing hippie?

[brucereiter]

Are you insinuating that I implied that Bruce is a pajama wearing hippie?

lol i saw the dead once but i am more of a metal head but i do like bob marley .... .... lol ...

bruce

[brucereiter]

Not many pajama-wearing hippies in the Shaolin forum. Take it to Emptyflower and see what they have to say....

my point in showing tai chi chuan is it is part of shaolin do and it happens to be what i study for about 10 years. i have not learned any of the external styles of shaolin do.

there are many threads and post about and by me on emptyflower. i think i am generally respected there for my skills and ability to apply what i have learned from our system, i will say "they" do not like my hsing i very much but i am fine with that and i would agree with many of the observations they have had about my understanding and performance of hsingi.

here is some push hand / application practice ...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9L9atX7yAFs

best,

bruce

[Chain Whip]

Are you insinuating that I implied that Bruce is a pajama wearing hippie?

Bruce is really not a hippie - and you will have to ask his wife about the pajama thing.

[BentMonk]

lol i saw the dead once but i am more of a metal head but i do like bob marley .... .... lol ...

bruce

I didn't get to see the Dead. I did go to Woodstock '99. Marley is awesome. BTW, what's wrong with pajama wearing hippies? They make great sparring partners. :D

[BlueTravesty]

Blue,

Do I detect a looking down your nose stance at people who study mantis?(as I do?)..and I might add..Mantis is not originally part of Shaolin..the actual shaolin temple..not SD...

Actually, no. As far as the "chumps" thing, I was actually being sarcastic. Mostly due to this interesting sentiment that a SD mantis practitioner would be viewed as less adept than a student of, say, Seven Star Mantis ONLY BECAUSE they are from SD (IE "knee-jerk anti-SD reaction") Personally, if they are viewed as less, I'd say it's because their curriculum doesn't allow them to reach the proficiency of someone who specializes in Mantis. Praying Mantis is a great style, and while I have never had the opportunity to practice it, it seems like a formidable style. I apologize, and did not mean any disrespect.

In addition to the slight sarcasm, I was proposing a solution to the supposed "knee-jerk anti-shaolin-do" sentiment. If a practitioner doesn't wear a gi, and doesn't identify him/herself as Shaolin-do, this would effectively take such a reaction out of the equation. It wouldn't, as Shaolin Wookie said make it any less SD, but it would keep this "unfair" attitude from being part of the equation.

And who knows? If they're really good, they might get someone to say "wow, I've been studying X style all my life, and this is awesome!" At which point the incognito SD practitioner could be all like "JOKES ON YOU, I LEARNED IT FROM SD ROFFLECOPTER LOLLERSKATES!"

But hey, if there is a video that some SD'er wants to post to show us all how the "real" thing looks, then by all means, do so. Just post a thread that says something like "Found an interesting Mantis/BaGua/Tiger Crane Video"

Again, no disrespect was meant toward you, Erasmus. And really, none was meant toward SD itself... I know if I trained in a multitude of HIGHLY DISPARATE FORMS AND STYLES, each with theories, concepts and strategies that require years of study individually, my form would have no hope of looking as good or being as technically sound as someone who specialized in that style. That's just how it goes. MMAists aren't insulted when someone tells them their hands aren't as good as Boxers, or they can't do the flying knee as well as Muay Thai people. They just shrug and keep cross-training.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

No problem...no offense taken..

As far as knee jerk reaction towards SD..while I admit that them wearing karate Gis makes it harder to giggle and take them seriously, and this guy Sin Kwang The claims that the guy with the wolf face was at one time "grandmaster of the S. Temple"(I wonder what the current S.T. has to say about this)..I really couldn't care less about what they wear. What I have an issue with is their self-aggrandizing statements.

900 styles? It would be d-man near impossible to learn 900 FORMS much less 900 styles.

One could are there are 900(or perhaps more) styles of Kung fu if you consolidate Shaolin, Wu-Tang and E-Mei temples(I'm speaking about the written ones..not "lost" systems)..but to say there are 900 styles in one? And that it's posisble to learn all of them?

That's when I must say bullsh-t!!!;)

[Chain Whip]

It is supposed to be 900 forms, not styles. Maybe 200 have been taught to date. Depending on how you count them. There are people currently in Shaolin-Do that can actually do over 100 forms. Not all schools wear the gis, Tennessee and Georgia schools wear frog button uniforms. Not that clothes really matter. GM The' does not claim to be able to actually do 900 forms at any time. It is more like he at one time saw the forms and practiced them for a short while. Now he has notes for a lot of forms and prepares the form off the notes when he is getting ready to teach it.

As to the Southern Temple.......GM The' has been to both of the current Southern Temples (rumor has it that a third is in the works) No fights broke out when he got there. At the government run "temple" in Putian they brought the same wushu coach that had been at the Northern Temple for awhile. They are a very nice northern style wu shu school. I'm pretty sure they have nothing to say considering they don't even teach kung-fu.

The Quanzhou Temple that was built by a Japanese group actually does Southern style kung-fu - including sai and tonfa :). Don't know what the group from Japan thinks about a guy from Indonesia claiming Southern Temple lineage, but at least they do kung-fu

[Baqualin]

It is supposed to be 900 forms, not styles. Maybe 200 have been taught to date. Depending on how you count them. There are people currently in Shaolin-Do that can actually do over 100 forms. Not all schools wear the gis, Tennessee and Georgia schools wear frog button uniforms. Not that clothes really matter. GM The' does not claim to be able to actually do 900 forms at any time. It is more like he at one time saw the forms and practiced them for a short while. Now he has notes for a lot of forms and prepares the form off the notes when he is getting ready to teach it.

As to the Southern Temple.......GM The' has been to both of the current Southern Temples (rumor has it that a third is in the works) No fights broke out when he got there. At the government run "temple" in Putian they brought the same wushu coach that had been at the Northern Temple for awhile. They are a very nice northern style wu shu school. I'm pretty sure they have nothing to say considering they don't even teach kung-fu.

The Quanzhou Temple that was built by a Japanese group actually does Southern style kung-fu - including sai and tonfa :). Don't know what the group from Japan thinks about a guy from Indonesia claiming Southern Temple lineage, but at least they do kung-fu

Around 400 forms to date...but only to higher level masters.
BQ

[synack]

Since my posting abilities are now in effect. Thanks Gene!

I'll use this opportunity to introduce myself. I take Shao-lin Tao at one of the Atlanta Schools and like it so far. Only been in a few weeks.

And yes, we do wear frog button uniforms (really doesn't matter to me though).

So hello! :cool: