Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Meat Shake]

congrats.

Do the kid a favor, put him in capoeria until he is old enough to enroll in Judo, BJJ or the something similar.

[Judge Pen]

Of course I'm wondering the same thing. I just hope my daughter shown an interest.

[Baqualin]

congrats.

Do the kid a favor, put him in capoeria until he is old enough to enroll in Judo, BJJ or the something similar.

Do US a favor and go hang out on a BJJ forum....maybe you can help figure out the Gracie lineage.
BQ

[tattooedmonk]

Do US a favor and go hang out on a BJJ forum....maybe you can help figure out the Gracie lineage.
BQ.......NICE:D

[tattooedmonk]

The styles of the South Shaolin lineage have a reputation for their great effectiveness and power. This article gives an insight into what has made them this way, tracing their history to the legendary burning of the South Shaolin Temple in Fujian Province.


This article is not about any particular style within the South Shaolin family of martial arts, of which there are hundreds, and it is not meant as any kind of practical guide. Instead it is about the place and time that shaped these styles into what they are today.


Some would argue that martial arts are about action, not history – who cares where a style comes from if it is effective, right?


Wrong. In Chinese culture and in the East as a whole, heritage and ancestry are of paramount importance. In fact knowledge of and veneration for your ancestors is the greatest virtue in the Confucian canon and so it is in the martial arts world.


In practical terms this is embodied in the concept of a pattern. A pattern can be seen as an exercise in grounding yourself in certain basic principles, it can be seen as a form of shadow boxing, but it is also a method of transmitting the style’s heritage. This is best understood if you see a pattern as an object of art that has been crafted by each successive generation of masters, all of whom have left their unique signature on it. A skilled eye can see these signature features and trace the movements being performed back to the style’s originator. This is why patterns are so jealously guarded in China: they are the equivalent of the family silver!


Why such a long introduction? Because South Shaolin is unique in the world of Chinese martial arts. Being “martial” it is not surprising that styles are often created in times of violence and war, but no other style or family of styles can claim such a bloody and violent birth as the South Shaolin lineage.


There were actually not just one but three South Shaolin Temples, all located in different areas of Fujian Province:

The oldest was the Putian Temple, established in 557 AD, just 61 years after the mother temple in North China’s Henan Province.

The next was the Quanzhou Temple, established in the 9th century AD, after the Emperor of the Tang Dynasty sent a group of Shaolin monks south to protect the Fujianese coast from attacks by pirates.

The third Shaolin Temple was in Fuqing and was likely established at some point during the Song Dynasty (960-1279 AD)



History is confused about these three temples. It is not certain whether they existed all at the same time, or succeeded each other, or even which one of the three was the South Shaolin Temple immortalised in martial arts legend.


There is a good reason why this is so, for during the Qing Dynasty the South Shaolin Temple was destroyed so completely that not a single stone was left standing and the majority of historical records about it were burned. It can not even be verified when this took place: records are split between the dates 1674 and 1734, although the latter date is more probable.


Whenever it happened, the episode is one of the most important in the history of Chinese Martial Arts. It became a watershed, with styles created afterwards being distinctly different from all those that came before. The burning of the temple also entered folklore and became a subject of countless novels, plays and films. As such most people in the West, who know anything about Chinese Martial Arts, know about it (although they usually and mistakenly associate the burning with the Northern Temple on Songshan).


So why was the South Shaolin Temple burned down?


The reason has to do with invasion and rebellion and the all out war that was breaking out across the southern provinces of Guangdong and Fujian at that time.


Only a few decades prior, in 1644, China was at its lowest ebb. The Ming Dynasty that had ruled for three hundred years was weak, bloated and autocratic, the country was torn apart by rebellions and the last Emperor of the Ming committed suicide by hanging himself from a tree on a hill overlooking the Forbidden Palace. At this time China was invaded by the Manchu, a people whose homeland was to the North East of China’s traditional borders. It was in no condition to offer up any effective resistance against the invaders and within a few years most of China was under Manchu control – the Manchu Qing Dynasty began.


Only in the border provinces was there still resistance to the Manchu. Fujian, by virtue of its distance from the capital, its mountainous terrain and a long coast line, became the frontline in the resistance. At first this resistance was open, with the General Koxinga launching counterattacks against the Manchu strongholds further north, but by 1661, after suffering heavy defeats on the mainland, Koxinga retreated to Taiwan.


After his withdrawal resistance to the Manchu went underground and countless secret societies formed under the motto “Kill the Qing. Bring back the Ming.” Many of these societies had strong links with the South Shaolin Temple.


It is not surprising that the Shaolin Temple gave support to the rebels. In those days temples were political and military as well as religious institutions and Shaolin in particular had strong links to the Imperial Throne (ever since a thousand years previously a group of Shaolin monks saved the life of the second Emperor of the Tang Dynasty) and so it would be natural for the Temple to offer aid to remnants of the Ming Dynasty.


Here too there are contradicting stories. According to some, South Shaolin Temple offered protection to many rebel officers of the Ming, who enrolled in the temple as lay students after being defeated by the Qing. Other accounts say that after the establishment of the Qing Dynasty the monks at first tried to build bridges with the new Dynasty and even sent some of its fighters to support Qing troops in a campaign in the far west of China, but the only outcome of this was that the new masters of China became fearful of the temple’s power and influence.


Which ever is the case (and quite possibly the wily abbots were playing both sides at least in the beginning) the Manchu decided that the South Shaolin Temple was a threat to their rule and ordered for it to be burned and raised to the ground. Most of the monks the Manchu could lay their hands on were butchered. According to legend only five escaped – the five ancestors – though of course the open door nature of the Shaolin Temple meant that even if only five masters escaped on the night, there would have been hundreds around who had studied in the temple at some point before the destruction took place.


After the temple’s destruction, the survivors suddenly found themselves being driven underground, for the Manchu placed a prohibition on the open practice of martial arts. From this moment on martial arts in the South of China started to change and develop their own distinctive characteristics.


Demand for fighting skills was high in these dangerous times while at the same time enforced secrecy meant that there was less communication and cooperation between different masters across the province. In this environment hundreds of new styles were created, as each master was forced to set up on his or her own. Some of these styles, such as White Crane, Dog Style and the Five Ancestors Fist became widespread, gaining hundreds of followers. Others became closed family styles, transmitted in secrecy from father to son. This was far safer in a world where the mere act of practising your style could get you into trouble with the Manchu authorities.


In general these new styles emphasised simplicity and efficiency of movement, coupled with high destructive power. A student would want to get to a point where he could do some damage as soon as possible in his training, not knowing when his life might depend upon it. Harsh foundation training or Gong Fu was a key part of each style, building up the body to the point where it could generate and handle maximum power fast. As the saying goes: “In Fujian Shaolin no move without use.”


Practising in secret had its own results. For one thing, traditional military weapons were no longer allowed (at least in the open), so farming and other everyday tools were put to good use and new patterns were developed specifically for them. Another result was a general shortening of patterns – as training was often done behind closed doors where space and time were at a premium.


The fighters of the 18th and 19th centuries in South China did not just have the resistance to the Manchu to contend with. This was a period of great hardship and famines, communal strife and religious cults. The Taiping Rebellion in the mid 19th century, to name but one, is estimated to have cost over 20 million lives.


It is not surprising therefore that so many of the best known styles of traditional wushu practised today have their origins in this period and draw their lineage ultimately to the South Shaolin Temple. It is purely the law of supply and demand, tough times make for the best fighters.


Watch for the distinguishing features of the Southern Shaolin Styles: low powerful stances, fast and efficient arm movements, low kicks, a great emphasis on power generation and force spreading and by extension on breathing techniques, short, compact patterns. Then compare with a northern style, for example Chang Quan, to see the differences.

[kwaichang]

Hey Nasty where are you located KC

[NastyHaggis]

Hey KC, sent you a PM, check your inbox.

[Kung Pao]

So, I gather from an SD post on another thread that the fourth internal art has begun to be taught by Sin The....

So, what is it like? Does it feel like an incorporation of Tai Chi, Pa Kua, and Hsing-I? Or, is it something completely different in scope, etc. (being such as each of the other three internal arts are quite different in expression of power).

Just curious, as this art has been talked about by Shaolin Dokas for quite some time.

[kwaichang]

Like nothing I have ever seen in an internal system KC Awesome:) I feel sorry for those who quit SD prior to this time as we have learned so much over the last 3 to 4 years KC

[Baqualin]

So, I gather from an SD post on another thread that the fourth internal art has begun to be taught by Sin The....

So, what is it like? Does it feel like an incorporation of Tai Chi, Pa Kua, and Hsing-I? Or, is it something completely different in scope, etc. (being such as each of the other three internal arts are quite different in expression of power).

Just curious, as this art has been talked about by Shaolin Dokas for quite some time.

More closely related to Hsing I (same internal work) in being that it's not soft and flowing like Tai Chi or some Pakua's....multiple (12 to 28 continuous) high speed attacks to pressure points in all directions...360 degrees.....like a meteor shower.......very snake like and every attack is expressed with fajing.....also has kicks, sweeps and attacks from the ground.:D
BQ

[Kung Pao]

If it's snake-like, do you think it's a precursor to him teaching his snake style? From what I know, he's never taught in the style he claims that he's a master of.....

To be honest, the legitimacy of his system is probably dependent on him showing mastery of his master style....or so I gather from Shaolin Doka threads.

[kwaichang]

Golden Snake is reserved for the next Grand Master, I would think, or only for those who have shown complete dedication to him and SD. KC

[Baqualin]

If it's snake-like, do you think it's a precursor to him teaching his snake style? From what I know, he's never taught in the style he claims that he's a master of.....

To be honest, the legitimacy of his system is probably dependent on him showing mastery of his master style....or so I gather from Shaolin Doka threads.

To be honest, the main people who question the legitimacy of our system are people in the cyber world that know nothing about Shaolin Do and will never take the time to find out or talk face to face with GMS. Teaching the golden snake has nothing to do with anything except Golden Snake.....which by the way there's physical proof of his mastery of this particular system
40 years & still growing makes it pretty legit to me....how many styles can claim that

It's really kinda of sad that one of the first people to bring CMA to the states catches all the flak he does.....he should be appreciated for what he's done for CMA's down through the years.....That goes for you too Gene...you should give GMS a closer look...talk to him more in person....you might be surprised...he lives in your area now
BQ

[Baqualin]

Golden Snake is reserved for the next Grand Master, I would think, or only for those who have shown complete dedication to him and SD. KC

I would suspect the latter KC
BQ

[kwaichang]

BQL DO YOU KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT THIS i DONT? pm ME KC

[Meat Shake]

Golden Snake is reserved for the next Grand Master, I would think, or only for those who have shown complete dedication to him and SD. KC

Golden snake eh?
Yeah, I bet it can be you and sin the's little secret.

[kungfujunky]

Golden snake eh?
Yeah, I bet it can be you and sin the's little secret.

what a valuable post

man you need to troll somewhere else.

[Kung Pao]

I'm not trolling, I'm actually a little interested. I took some shaolin do awhile back. But once I recieved the 3 crane forms at brown belt, I moved on. I wanted more crane, they said there wasn't anymore except in seminar format, which we couldn't dictate, so I moved on and found a crane master. No hard feelings. I just knew what I wanted to study, and it wasn't what was on hte menu.

But the issue of Golden Snake(? his master style?): When I was younger and in college, I took physics, mathematics, chemistry, english, history, and the like. But I would only claim to be an authority in my major field, right? Why wouldn't I teach the one I had more experience in? It doesn't make sense to me.

Oh, and I'm not questioning his skill. I saw him multiple times in person, and even at a tourney or two doing exhibitions.:cool:

[Baqualin]

I'm not trolling, I'm actually a little interested. I took some shaolin do awhile back. But once I recieved the 3 crane forms at brown belt, I moved on. I wanted more crane, they said there wasn't anymore except in seminar format, which we couldn't dictate, so I moved on and found a crane master. No hard feelings. I just knew what I wanted to study, and it wasn't what was on hte menu.

But the issue of Golden Snake(? his master style?): When I was younger and in college, I took physics, mathematics, chemistry, english, history, and the like. But I would only claim to be an authority in my major field, right? Why wouldn't I teach the one I had more experience in? It doesn't make sense to me.

Oh, and I'm not questioning his skill. I saw him multiple times in person, and even at a tourney or two doing exhibitions.:cool:

Gms has his own master plan for teaching out the material....for the last 10 yrs. he's been building the internal side of the system...which now is offered seperately from the external side......you can't please everyone KP. My interest is in the internal, so I'm in heaven now...I'm getting everything I've dreamed of and more. That said, there's people in the system that are only interested in the external side and they would like more in that direction....everyone is different...we will get it all eventially....I'm sure we'll see Golden Snake someday when he feels it's time......like I said even with all this material you can't please everybody. I've been lucky enough to get what I'm interested in;)
BQ

[Baqualin]

Golden snake eh?
Yeah, I bet it can be you and sin the's little secret.

:p!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BQ

[kwaichang]

Yeah Meat Shake that is why you will never have anything, atttude. You trained in SanMarcos right then left couldnt take it. KC

[Leto]

Isn't it common for the master to reserve the "best" part of his style for family only, or for only select students? It may not seem to make sense to our western understanding, where we want to show everyone our best right away. But I know people who refuse to even talk about their family's art, never mind teach it to a bunch of strangers. Is it possible Sin The has this sensibility also?

like in Fist of Legend ;) The son of Fok Yuen Gap says "This style is not for the 'others'", and then shows Chen Zen the family mizong fist, which Fok Yuen Gap hadn't shown to any of his students.

[Meat Shake]

Yeah Meat Shake that is why you will never have anything, atttude. You trained in SanMarcos right then left couldnt take it. KC

LOL!
Couldnt take it eh?
Look up Kirk Woeller, San Antonio Combat Shuai Chiao association.
Look up John Wang in Austin, Texas.
Watch their videos, and watch david lin's videos. Tell me that I left SD for something "softer"....
I dont see any pregnant women or children practicing shuai chiao.
Before I moved up here for college I was in shuai chiao 8 hours a week and training another 25-30 hours a week.
One more thing... The whole "dont show anyone material" is just in place so you guys dont get laughed out of town. Someone may just show you that nothing you know works besides basic kicks and punches. Someone may show you what the original version of the form looked like before Sin The watered it down.
Every fighting based style I have trained always said to freely trade information and keep what is useful, show others what works for you and what may work for them, and ask the same of them.

[Golden Tiger]

Tell me that I left SD for something "softer"....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwy_C4cywNM

Uh yeah....you might want to tell them not to jump before the throw is executed or fall before the guys starts the sweep....looks almost as dangerous as some of those Akido demo's I have seen. You be careful Meat, hate for you to end up with a nasty rug burn.....:rolleyes:

[brucereiter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwy_C4cywNM

Uh yeah....you might want to tell them not to jump before the throw is executed or fall before the guys starts the sweep....looks almost as dangerous as some of those Akido demo's I have seen. You be careful Meat, hate for you to end up with a nasty rug burn.....:rolleyes:

remember it was a demo ... i have nothing but respect for john wang. if you check out a bit more of what he does i think you will find it of value.

[kwaichang]

Yep, I know the teacher in San M and know the kind of classes he runs. I definately hope you dont square up like that for your throws. If so , anyway I have heard about you already you know I took Aikido from a uchi Deshi of Euishibas and w/o with a judo guy there our throws and tech were much harder . KC

[Golden Tiger]

remember it was a demo ... i have nothing but respect for john wang. if you check out a bit more of what he does i think you will find it of value.


Yeah, I was just in a bit of a pi$$y mood lastnight. But since our demo's are always attacked, I figured it was within the rules.

I meant no offense to Mr. Wang nor anyone else. Just pointing out that to Mr. Meat.

[ninthdrunk]

Man, I just got around to watching my liu shing dvd. I can't believe how fast he is! I think I've gotten a good taste for it, especially after watching him go through first leopard at the seminar....but this is ridiculous! Anyone with the video, pay close attention during round 5. The man's hands are like lightning! And you can tell that each strike is going to each of those points he's calling.

Hope I'm rockin like that some day!

[Baqualin]

Man, I just got around to watching my liu shing dvd. I can't believe how fast he is! I think I've gotten a good taste for it, especially after watching him go through first leopard at the seminar....but this is ridiculous! Anyone with the video, pay close attention during round 5. The man's hands are like lightning! And you can tell that each strike is going to each of those points he's calling.

Hope I'm rockin like that some day!

It's amazing that someone who just turned 64 still has that much speed & power.....hopefully that will give you a little insight in to what we experienced 30+ yrs. ago when he was in his prime......people just don't realize.;) BQ

[Meat Shake]

Yeah, I was just in a bit of a pi$$y mood lastnight. But since our demo's are always attacked, I figured it was within the rules.

I meant no offense to Mr. Wang nor anyone else. Just pointing out that to Mr. Meat.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=T6MnGc2sAtk
... :rolleyes:
This is more along the lines of good Shuai Chiao demos.
Show me some SD at work.

[kwaichang]

Which one was you ? not too impressive by either one KC

[Meat Shake]

Which one was you ? not too impressive by either one KC

ROFL!

Wow...
You really know nothing of fighting. Neither was me, that was the chinese national team vs. thailand.
Sorry if there were no Chi blasts or death touches, but thats what real fighting looks like. Maybe next year someone will strike a crane pose or pull someones eye out...
:rolleyes:


Like I said, show me an SD video of more than a form. You cant produce one because the basic philosophy of SD is "too t3h d34d7y for the ring!!!??!!"...
riiiiight.....

[John Many Jars]

I liked the clip. Especially, when the San Shou guy throwing the Thai guy over the ropes. Speaking of which, his throws look very similar to the demo videos you posted. The techniques obviously carry over well to the ring.

Some of the comments on the clip said the San Shao guy looked more Muay Thai than the Muay Thai fighter and even though I know neither style that's what I was thinking.

If you recall, JP posted some clips of his sparring at a comp. and there was also a vid of a SD guy (w/ some ground training, I think) fighting and winning in the ring. So there are at least a couple out there. =\

[Meat Shake]

Actually, if you can find the links Id be very interested to see.

[kwaichang]

Yes I know "good" fighting and that aint it. Anybody with strength can do throws like that , no skill . So why take a gun to a knife fight anyway, I will be in texas in July or august , wil you be there MS ?? KC

[Judge Pen]

Actually, if you can find the links Id be very interested to see.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41609 (has a link to the SD guy in an amature MMA match.

And, for public ridicule: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42125

[ninthdrunk]

Are shuai chiao fights always broken up so often? I know they're hitting pretty hard, and it's a lot more intense than it looks, but I gotta say, I was a little disappointed. I would think that a throwing art wouldn't break from the clinch, or right after a throw. It seemed more like point sparring with throws.

[BM2]

I watched Cung Le fight and he is impressive although I do not care for the rules, i.e. stopping the action after a take down and not continuing it on the ground.
Been looking to get a used DVD on his take downs.
It is my opinion that MS is using a poor way of explaining he prefers a style that is geared just for fighting. But he is ignorant of SD if he thinks there is no one that can fight in SD :rolleyes:
It does take more time in TMA where forms have to be learned. It takes away from time spent on live training and sparring.

[Kung Pao]

MEat Shake....you need to chill, bro. The first MA I took was SD, and I quit after 2 years at brown belt--just like you. I went to several other CMA styles, and wound up in shuai chao for about a year, but moved back to stick with my crane teacher b/c he was the best I've ever met. You know what? I was able to use SD material in shaui chao with good results. :eek: .....shocker, right? And I'm not SD's biggest fan. But it ain't complete ****, hombre. And shaui Chao isn't exactly THE SHIZNIT par excellence.

Just because you couldn't use it doesn't mean nobody can. It was my first MA, and it taught me a helluvalot (material and depth). Some of hte fighters there were the best I've met...and I've met a lot. But the best fighters I have ever met were all MMA. Sorry charlie. But you know what, I can use my White Crane material against MMA fighters. I even use some SD, b/c that's my foundation. But most of theose guys are bigger, faster, and stronger, and they're excellent groundfighters, so they overwhelme me eventually. Not always, but usually (I'm man enough to admit that).

I do remember one thing in particular about SD. Their pressure point strikers were scary. I've learned a lot about Dim Mak over the years. But I've never seen (that is, felt) pain like some of their best fighters inflicted on me. I remember sparring a fourth degree once, and every two seconds he had me in a throat lock I couldn't reverse that put me down quick (and out, once).

This whole thread (I won't even try to read the whole thing....) is ridiculous. It works if you can use it. It doesn't if you can't. I've met horrible MMA fighters, but their best are the best I've met (because they're pro fighters). I've met horrible CMA guys, but the best are right up there, too (the only thing holding them back is they don't train like pros do). There are some badazz shuai chao guys, but they're no more badazz than anyone else, and would bet whipped by a BJJ guy, (at least, probably, since most SC ends with hitting the floor), but I've met Muay Thai guys that are BJJ killers, cuz they kick with authority. I trained in a camp with a Thai champ, and one kick from this guy had me injured on the sidelines (and dang, man, I was holding a shield....:D ....).

Few of us could ever take on pro fighters. It's their job, their pride, and their life. We're all armchair Martial ARtists to them. So what is this SC vs. SD crap, man?

If you can use it, fine. If you can't use your SD material, congrats. Just means you suck at SD.

[Kung Pao]

Question: to all.

What does it mean to use your material?

I might not be able to pull off a series of consecutive crane kicks perched on one leg with a hand guarding high above my head, and the other sweeping back to protect my groin, but why the hell would I do that?

But if I grabbed your wrist or fingers (my favoritee, since most people don't protect against finger-wrenching) and locked it, raised it, and kicked you once in the rib (Liver 13 or 14-nasty place for a kick) or knee, it's the same thing. The extra kicks in a form help you with balance and strength conditioning. The ways you need to condition are often encoded in a form. (to practice for leg strength and stability, hold a hanging leg stance and fire off kicks above your head---sheesh, I'll recommend that to everyone. Awesome leg/balance exercise.) Fighting in a style doesn't necessarily mean flapping like a crane, dancing like a mantis, or ripping liike a tiger. It might only be three or four solid techniques, or variations on punches in a form. As my teacher always says: "Fighting should look like fighting." It's the linear/circular philsophies, body positioning, etc that really determines mastership of a style. My teacher looks like a crane when he does his forms. His shaking jin is amazing. If you grab him in any shaui chao grab (I have), he can shake you off with no effort.
But hwen he fights (he has family/professional relations who do MMA, and sometimes train with us---hardcore guys, they are), you see crane concepts and power generation. But you wouldn't say he looked like a crane, because he doesn't stay perched on one leg for ten minutes like in the movies. BUt to a trained eye, you'd say....holy ****, that man knows his crane. His strikes are crane strikes, but he can box straight up using what he's learned, and he's never studied anything except crane. You have to play with your forms, and dissect them, and train with others to attain understanding (especially the latter). Nothing will ever be more effective than a straight punch or a jab. Every MA uses them in some variation. Boxing didn't create it. It's in your CMA forms, too. For SD guys, your #1 punch (sparring tech) will always be your most effective strike, hands down.

And for hte record, SD's crane isn't that far off the mark. Different stylings, gave me my break, and still part of my daily repetoire. Owe it a lot.


Crane generates power through looseness, softness, and whipping power. It's footwork covers ground, best in mid-range or close up, IMO. Forms teach you what attacks are good for certain ranges. They teach you concepts.

You have to employ them. But employing your material doesn't entail imitating an animal, like in your forms. I don't flap my wings, squawk, and make funky neck movements. But my crane is effective, nonetheless.

[Baqualin]

Question: to all.

What does it mean to use your material?

I might not be able to pull off a series of consecutive crane kicks perched on one leg with a hand guarding high above my head, and the other sweeping back to protect my groin, but why the hell would I do that?

But if I grabbed your wrist or fingers (my favoritee, since most people don't protect against finger-wrenching) and locked it, raised it, and kicked you once in the rib (Liver 13 or 14-nasty place for a kick) or knee, it's the same thing. The extra kicks in a form help you with balance and strength conditioning. The ways you need to condition are often encoded in a form. (to practice for leg strength and stability, hold a hanging leg stance and fire off kicks above your head---sheesh, I'll recommend that to everyone. Awesome leg/balance exercise.) Fighting in a style doesn't necessarily mean flapping like a crane, dancing like a mantis, or ripping liike a tiger. It might only be three or four solid techniques, or variations on punches in a form. As my teacher always says: "Fighting should look like fighting." It's the linear/circular philsophies, body positioning, etc that really determines mastership of a style. My teacher looks like a crane when he does his forms. His shaking jin is amazing. If you grab him in any shaui chao grab (I have), he can shake you off with no effort.
But hwen he fights (he has family/professional relations who do MMA, and sometimes train with us---hardcore guys, they are), you see crane concepts and power generation. But you wouldn't say he looked like a crane, because he doesn't stay perched on one leg for ten minutes like in the movies. BUt to a trained eye, you'd say....holy ****, that man knows his crane. His strikes are crane strikes, but he can box straight up using what he's learned, and he's never studied anything except crane. You have to play with your forms, and dissect them, and train with others to attain understanding (especially the latter). Nothing will ever be more effective than a straight punch or a jab. Every MA uses them in some variation. Boxing didn't create it. It's in your CMA forms, too. For SD guys, your #1 punch (sparring tech) will always be your most effective strike, hands down.

And for hte record, SD's crane isn't that far off the mark. Different stylings, gave me my break, and still part of my daily repetoire. Owe it a lot.


Crane generates power through looseness, softness, and whipping power. It's footwork covers ground, best in mid-range or close up, IMO. Forms teach you what attacks are good for certain ranges. They teach you concepts.

You have to employ them. But employing your material doesn't entail imitating an animal, like in your forms. I don't flap my wings, squawk, and make funky neck movements. But my crane is effective, nonetheless.

Your teacher has taught you well....you have a true understanding of what forms are about.....something the majority miss out on

It's also apparent that you did learn from SD....your right about ole #1, it can be used in a variety of ways to where you don't see it till it hits you. Elder Master Eric Smith has Mastered sparring tech #1 & you can't stop it. So simple yet so effective. GMS has recently taught the Shaolin Ground Monkey & students who do alot of ground fighting are using some of the postures (not attacks) very successfully to compliment their ground fighting skills.:cool:
BQ

[kwaichang]

I will be in texas in July or august , wil you be there MS ?? KC
You never replied so I thought I would post it again KC

[Meat Shake]

KC- july or august possibly, but not likely. I move back for good in December.

"And shaui Chao isn't exactly THE SHIZNIT par excellence."

... Never said it was, and this is exactly why I supplement with BJJ and Muay Thai.

"Few of us could ever take on pro fighters. It's their job, their pride, and their life."

This is my aim within the next 2 years, to go pro. Its not SD vs SC... SC is my base, I train on more of an MMA platform. I have to stack enough money to safely work part time for the better part of a year and off I go.

and LOL at you guys all getting so worked up. A majority of the reason I give SD so much sh!t is because its the only art Ive walked into that told me "This is the ultimate complete art. You need NOTHING else. Ground fighting is useless, a well trained SD student will not go to the ground, yadayadayada..."
and this same attitude has been displayed a number of times on this forum. Look at my join date dude. Look up posts by the member who owns the moniker Shaolin-Do. Thats me. They are OOOLD.... I fought to prove everyone wrong that SD was great, until I was pointed in the direction of some actual fighting.
And no, in the end, its not any better or worse than 90% of what is out there, its just the general "ultimate martial art" attitude that earns it so much crap. Im sure SD does have one or two competent fighters to every thousand that train it, as I was training to fight full contact outside of SD for the short while I trained it. I like to argue, and I do that here. Its fun, and its funny.
I know Shuai Chiao isnt "the shiznit", but its fantastic for clinch and throws. Muay thai is better for striking, which is exactly why I like to work with MT fighters any and every chance I get, and BJJ rules on the ground, which is exactly why within the next few weeks after I finish my next album Ill be starting up again with a local pro fighting team.
Once again, the reason I give SD so much sh!t is because time and time again I have been told that its ultimate and complete, and its not. None of the people I trained SC with ever told me it was "complete". They just always said that if you are fighting on the ground your SC needs work, but never once told me to omit the training.
Hell, there was a rule at one of our SC tournies in austin that if you were on the ground for more than 10 seconds kirk and paul would rush you both from the sides and start kicking both opponents, because thats what its like in life.

Edit: That being said, the SC I trained DID go to the ground, just for clarification.

[Meat Shake]

Also, JP, thanks for the link and props for putting it out there.

The MMA clips didnt work. The page opens, but when I click play it just says connecting, loads, then says ready. You hit play and it just says connecting again...

Any youtube links of it?

KC- judging by your profile, you really must think you are a hard@ss. Hitman eh? Training in the Shaolin temple huh? Good for you.

"It is my opinion that MS is using a poor way of explaining he prefers a style that is geared just for fighting. But he is ignorant of SD if he thinks there is no one that can fight in SD"

Your opinion is correct. Im sure there are a couple of people in SD who can fight, but it didnt come from learning SD. The fighters would be fighters anyhow. Ive already said that half of the reason Im even on these retarded threads is because sometimes I get bored, and its fun to get peoples feathers in a ruffle. You guys continue to let me bother you, so I continue to do so.

[Baqualin]

Also, JP, thanks for the link and props for putting it out there.

The MMA clips didnt work. The page opens, but when I click play it just says connecting, loads, then says ready. You hit play and it just says connecting again...

Any youtube links of it?

KC- judging by your profile, you really must think you are a hard@ss. Hitman eh? Training in the Shaolin temple huh? Good for you.

"It is my opinion that MS is using a poor way of explaining he prefers a style that is geared just for fighting. But he is ignorant of SD if he thinks there is no one that can fight in SD"

Your opinion is correct. Im sure there are a couple of people in SD who can fight, but it didnt come from learning SD. The fighters would be fighters anyhow. Ive already said that half of the reason Im even on these retarded threads is because sometimes I get bored, and its fun to get peoples feathers in a ruffle. You guys continue to let me bother you, so I continue to do so.

Most of us are on here for the same reason MS....it's fun to pick at each other....keep us posted on your fights....FYI there's a MMA cage fight coming up soon in Ashland, Ky & there will be an SD participant there might want to check it out

[Meat Shake]

If you can get a video of it Id love to watch.

College debts make traveling more of a wish than a reality.

[Baqualin]

If you can get a video of it Id love to watch.

College debts make traveling more of a wish than a reality.

I hope to do that.
BQ

[kwaichang]

No I dont think I am a Hard a$$ but I am willing to spar you to show you some of the SD can fight will I win , Maybe but i believe you will know you have been in a scrap.
PS i will be 49 in August and instead of a mid life crises Red Sports car i thought it would be fun to just kick young punks a$$e$ who have big mouths. want a go? KC
Please be kind with my old brittle bones.

[Meat Shake]

heh...
Dude, you are old enough that Id feel bad for beating you down.
But sure, when I come back to texas if you are around Ill gladly smite you. There has been more than one instance in my life where I had to show an older gent that "young punks" can dismantle a "tough ass old man" with ease....

[CaptinPickAxe]

Time for a little dojo busting, eh shake? I can't believe these guys get so butt hurt over knowing that they aren't training in "THE ONE TRUE COMPLETE MARTIAL ART!!!" Get a ****ing clue. You'd be a fool to believe that there is any one true art. Most of you shaolin dopes (except the unspoken few...you know who you are) are so closed minded and share many triats with cult members walking to the culling. Think for yourself and realize that you are being lead...

[John Many Jars]

On a semi-related note, I was talking to a pretty new white belt yesterday and it turns out he's studied San Shao. It sounds like a pretty cool art.

[kwaichang]

Cool Sounds Good To Me. Kc Ill Be In Touch

[MasterKiller]

On a semi-related note, I was talking to a pretty new white belt yesterday and it turns out he's studied San Shao. It sounds like a pretty cool art.

San Shou kickboxing, or San Soo the too-deadly-to-spar style? There is a difference.

[Flaca]

heh...
Dude, you are old enough that Id feel bad for beating you down.
But sure, when I come back to texas if you are around Ill gladly smite you. There has been more than one instance in my life where I had to show an older gent that "young punks" can dismantle a "tough ass old man" with ease....

Do you think KC's been resting on his laurels for 38 years???? He's about the strongest and quickest guy in SD, of any age.
Smite? I doubt it. Although you sound like one of those guys who'll take anything (bloody noses, black eyes, bruised shins) and never admit defeat. "Just a flesh wound"

[Meat Shake]

"He's about the strongest and quickest guy in SD, of any age."

lol...
for some reason that is one of the least intimidating things anyone has ever said to back someone up.

"(bloody noses, black eyes, bruised shins) and never admit defeat."

If Im still standing then the fight isnt over.

[John Many Jars]

San Shou kickboxing, or San Soo the too-deadly-to-spar style? There is a difference.

I think it's San Shou. He said most of their stuff was in clinching range, w/ a lot of throws and ground work (chokes, etc.). I'll have to ask him next time I see him what kind of sparring they did.

[MasterKiller]

I think it's San Shou. He said most of their stuff was in clinching range, w/ a lot of throws and ground work (chokes, etc.). I'll have to ask him next time I see him what kind of sparring they did.

San Shou kickboxing has no ground work. It's kick/punch/throw, done with boxing gloves.

I bet he's San Soo....

It's pronouced the same, in fact, I think the Chinese characters are the same. But San Soo is a TMA, not a combat sport.

[Judge Pen]

San Shou kickboxing has no ground work. It's kick/punch/throw, done with boxing gloves.

I bet he's San Soo....

or he's cross-trained a bit.

[kwaichang]

Hey man I didnt solicit it Im slow as a sloth and weak as water Im fat and ugly so dont mind being hit, My technique sucks and I cant kick above the knee. KC

[CaptinPickAxe]

It seems the SDers have gotten a bit more testy since I've returned from my hiatus. Confidence can help gain a win, arrogance can be the sole reason for a loss. KC, you best choose your battles or train for a war. I'm Shake's training partner and I'll tell you straight up: Train hard or contact EMS pre-fight. If you take this fight, KC, (which I highly doubt...just another internet tough guy) crosstrain. You'll need it. The SD anti-grapple won't save you.

Also, if you can't take criticism get the **** off of KFO. And a word in advance, Shake and I are preparing to start training with a very respected MMA crew here in MLPS. We train for this, but soon we will be training to put our skills to the test in the ring. Are you a hobbyist or a fighter?

[kwaichang]

Im a hobbyist for 36 years 6-7 days a week , X pro fighter turned MA dont care about EMT I have fought some tough old cookies in my time. Trained old style Judo and others Bouncer for many years and more. and I dont psych out I just try real hard to win. KC

[CaptinPickAxe]

If your a 6-7 day a week, ex-fighter then you aren't a hobbyist. Do you have a link to your record? Where you ranked? What venues/formats have you fought in?

[CaptinPickAxe]

Also, now that we know your background. If you won, would it have been your judo or the SD that helped your win? If anything your "experience" is more daming than saving for SD. You openly admit to knowing other arts that would come into play. I know that SD has no respectable ground game so if you won by submission it would be the Judo. If you won by KO/TKO from a throw, it would have been the Judo. So, all that's left is striking for SD...I have my doubts to your claims but the truth stands.

[kwaichang]

I did the other but have found the truth SD how do you define what one is beaten by? So it doesnt matter, what venues I fought PKA , also in those days we challenged other schools and fought for the he// of it. I have a good knowledge of the ground and can kick and punch a little even at my advanced age. I fought on cards with Anthony the amp elmore in the 80's and a few other ranked people , my best friend and I trained pro boxing in Nashville he went on to be world welter weight and light weight champ. You know there is no way to say what beat who MS trained SD if he hits me and knocks me out then I will say it was the SD training. No way No way No way. GOIT. KC
Because he, MS doesnt like something he doesnt have the right or knowledge to cut it down. Its the man not the art. KC

[CaptinPickAxe]

Wow. The period button is next to the coma. That was hard to read.

So...where are the links? If you have fought, you should be easy to find. What's your name?

Also, you seem to be using your age as a crutch. If you can fight, then good. But if you can't don't use your age as a preemptive excuse.

[Meat Shake]

"MS trained SD if he hits me and knocks me out then I will say it was the SD training."
... SD actually taught me a few habits I had to unlearn when I began actually fighting. I train to fight and I fight to win. I dont play paticake with gloves on.

Anyhow...
Im getting bored with this thread.
Ill let you know when Im in texas.

Be well.

[ninthdrunk]

CSC folks, what's the deal with this form? I love our monkey forms, and I'm curious where/when the West acquired this form. I've heard it was taught to them by someone on the China trip awhile back, and didn't actually come from Grandmaster Sin. Anyone have this form and want to share the basics of what it's all about: where'd it come from, what's it like?

[Baqualin]

CSC folks, what's the deal with this form? I love our monkey forms, and I'm curious where/when the West acquired this form. I've heard it was taught to them by someone on the China trip awhile back, and didn't actually come from Grandmaster Sin. Anyone have this form and want to share the basics of what it's all about: where'd it come from, what's it like?

Stone monkey is one of the 5 monkey styles taught by the Monkey King.
BQ

[godzillakungfu]

CSC folks, what's the deal with this form? I love our monkey forms, and I'm curious where/when the West acquired this form. I've heard it was taught to them by someone on the China trip awhile back, and didn't actually come from Grandmaster Sin. Anyone have this form and want to share the basics of what it's all about: where'd it come from, what's it like?
That's kind of funny. Ha Ha funny not sarcastic funny.

We heard the same thing about the Chen Tai Chi Fan form.

As I recall, it was offered back in 91-92.

[tattooedmonk]

it was one of Master Hsiang's forms. It is a basic set with some nice techniques. classic monkey moves arm drag take downs, rolling, monkey paw wrist strikes.

[Baqualin]

it was one of Master Hsiang's forms. It is a basic set with some nice techniques. classic monkey moves arm drag take downs, rolling, monkey paw wrist strikes.

Didn't want to mention that but I think your correct.;)
BQ

[Sal Canzonieri]

I noticed the SD does a form that my system does, called Lien Wu Chang (linked 5 palms). SD sometimes calls it Whirling Palms too.

I don't know where SD got if from but it is a form from the Di Tang style, of Shandong province. The style goes back to the Song Dynasty.
Di Tang is known for its very low to the ground fighting movements, this form is from their above ground level material (not all the style's forms are on the ground). It does have some very low sweeps.

I don't know if it is same exact form as the one that SD does, but I think it is, because whenever I have heard someone from SD describe it, it sounds like the form I know.

Do you SD people know where SD got it from?

It's a northern style, not southern as SD has said about this form.

It's based on Tong Bei monkey / ape movements and can be done with the Dao / knife (even the double Dao).

Tell me more about this Lien Wu Chang (Tsang) form you do, and I will tell you if it the same as the official one of this style. Let's see if it is indeed the same form.
It is not a Shaolin form.

[Leto]

I have a theory that many, if not most of the forms done in SD are from Shandong province. It is interesting to note that there is "shantung kuntao" from Indonesia as well.

The Lien Wu Chang I learned from CSC has several low sweeps, and features turning and spinning to attack and cover ground. I don't think it's a southern form, either. A couple techniques which are repeated throughout the form are a hopping forward front sweep followed by a low back sweep with elbow, and a spinning front sweep/back sweep combo. also, an arm whirling takedown into a low crouched monkey sort of stance, followed by spinning double kick. Most of the palm attacks are from a forward bow and arrow stance, which should be pretty low.
If I had a video camera I'd show you how I do it.

I doubt it would be identical to anything currently practiced by another style. The overall concept might be very similar, though. There could be indentical techniques in different orders, depending on the emphasis and interpretation they are given.

Is this from a ditang style like yours? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvNSDBapxzU

This form has movement and attacks very similar to the lien wu chang I know. some things we don't have, and the sweeps are performed in a different way, but very very similar means of moving/spinning. there are techniques in here that aren't in mine, or maybe were taught with such different emphasis that they are unrecongizeable. But this definately looks like a relative...three or four generations removed maybe.

[Leto]

I'm a google maniac! :)

Is this it? Is this the "official" lian wu chang from ditang quan?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmpcuyKJpEI

It is very similar to the one taught by CSC/SD. techniques are performed slightly differently. It has the hopping forward sweep, the spinning double kick, inside crescent kicks, the same style of body turning and palm attacks.
I am quite excited about this, to find another system with forms so close. it always bothered me that no one in SD or CSC knows or will tell us the lineage or origin of any of the forms (apart from common knowledge legends, like from Zhan SanFeng, Yue Fei, Wang Lang, etc, and the 2 masters of the SD lineage).
This is a most promising "lead" in this mystery. At least one of the The brothers' teachers must have been a shantung kuntao guy...shandong province is also the home of praying mantis styles, the same teacher could be the one who passed those forms as well.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I'm a google maniac! :)

Is this it? Is this the "official" lian wu chang from ditang quan?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmpcuyKJpEI

It is very similar to the one taught by CSC/SD. techniques are performed slightly differently. It has the hopping forward sweep, the spinning double kick, inside crescent kicks, the same style of body turning and palm attacks.
I am quite excited about this, to find another system with forms so close. it always bothered me that no one in SD or CSC knows or will tell us the lineage or origin of any of the forms (apart from common knowledge legends, like from Zhan SanFeng, Yue Fei, Wang Lang, etc, and the 2 masters of the SD lineage).
This is a most promising "lead" in this mystery. At least one of the The brothers' teachers must have been a shantung kuntao guy...shandong province is also the home of praying mantis styles, the same teacher could be the one who passed those forms as well.

WOW! Thanks for finding that!
That's the form, pretty much, all the postures, just done like a beginner student, but it's that form alright.
Thanks for finding that!

And, yes, this form is taught as part of some praying mantis in the system. They also do The Tiger Swallow form, and some other N Mantis forms.
It's the Ditang Mantis system from Shandong.

I've learned the forms from Master Tang, from Taiwan, when he visted NYC, he is coming back this July or so.

I have some tapes from the 1970s of Patrick Hodges doing other forms from the system.

Well, there you go!

[Sal Canzonieri]

I have a theory that many, if not most of the forms done in SD are from Shandong province. It is interesting to note that there is "shantung kuntao" from Indonesia as well.

The Lien Wu Chang I learned from CSC has several low sweeps, and features turning and spinning to attack and cover ground. I don't think it's a southern form, either. A couple techniques which are repeated throughout the form are a hopping forward front sweep followed by a low back sweep with elbow, and a spinning front sweep/back sweep combo. also, an arm whirling takedown into a low crouched monkey sort of stance, followed by spinning double kick. Most of the palm attacks are from a forward bow and arrow stance, which should be pretty low.
If I had a video camera I'd show you how I do it.

I doubt it would be identical to anything currently practiced by another style. The overall concept might be very similar, though. There could be indentical techniques in different orders, depending on the emphasis and interpretation they are given.

Is this from a ditang style like yours? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvNSDBapxzU

This form has movement and attacks very similar to the lien wu chang I know. some things we don't have, and the sweeps are performed in a different way, but very very similar means of moving/spinning. there are techniques in here that aren't in mine, or maybe were taught with such different emphasis that they are unrecongizeable. But this definately looks like a relative...three or four generations removed maybe.

That is the same form, this is more like how my system does it.

[godzillakungfu]

That is the same form, this is more like how my system does it.

Wow, I'd say there are subtle differences but, it is really close to the west version I learned.

I'd say, minus a few different angles, it was about 90% similar.

[Crushing Fist]

I suppose the natural question would be:

Does the style which has this Lian Wu Zhang also have a related form which translates to something like "Connecting Fist" or "Interconnected Fist" ?

Jie Quan or Che Chien?

I've been looking around for some history on these forms for awhile and haven't found anything until this.

They are referred to as "China Hand" style and I have heard of them being related to tiger style. However, to me they have always seemed very much like a longfist type of style.

It has always been a bit mysterious to me, though I do like them quite a lot.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I suppose the natural question would be:

Does the style which has this Lian Wu Zhang also have a related form which translates to something like "Connecting Fist" or "Interconnected Fist" ?

Jie Quan or Che Chien?

I've been looking around for some history on these forms for awhile and haven't found anything until this.

They are referred to as "China Hand" style and I have heard of them being related to tiger style. However, to me they have always seemed very much like a longfist type of style.

It has always been a bit mysterious to me, though I do like them quite a lot.

Jie Quan is a common beginner form taught at the famous Jingwu Association of SHANDONG province (the school in the Fearless film). It's not an old form. Its an amalgamation of various long fist forms. The Jingwu school has released for their anniversary a set of books on their beginner forms, you can see (learn?) this set very easily in these books. Plumflower carries them, the whole set.

Eagle Claw people use this Jie Quan form as a beginner form too, with eagle claw ideas.

The Jie means the same thing as Jeet as in Jeet Kune Do, Bruce Lee's style.

China Hand is Wah Quan, it is not a Wah Quan form. Nope.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Wow, I'd say there are subtle differences but, it is really close to the west version I learned.

I'd say, minus a few different angles, it was about 90% similar.

This version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmpcuyKJpEI

is missing some important transition movements.

This is a two person form and without the correct transition movements, you will get your ass kicked by the other person doing the other side of the form (the form splits into two, one half against the other half).

And, this version, although done MUCH better is also missing the same transition moves:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvNSDBapxzU

SO, that means that they do not want you to know them.
First time I was taught the form they left these moves out too (students of the teacher). Second and third time we went over the form (by the teacher and the teacher's teacher), I had to re-learn the form with the missing movements but back in and what their function was.

Anyways, thanks for finding these, they are great memory joggers for the form overall.

[Leto]

The way they may be related to eachother and to the black tiger forms taught in SD is if they are from Shandong. Our black tiger forms also include a lot of low/ground techniques, I wonder if they are related to the ditang quan mentioned as well? Sal, does your ditang quan have any forms called black tiger?
Jie Quan and Jin Gang Fu Hu Quan seem very different from Lian Wu Zhang, though they are closer to eachother. You often do see lineages which include forms from other traditions that don't necessarily "match" their core curriculum...like when a master will learn something from one of his friends, and teach that to his students out of respect for his friend's skill (or something like that). Or two families come together through marriage, or something, and add forms from both into a new "style".

Assuming our black tiger forms are really from Shandong, as we are told they are...then we have : 4 black tigers, lian wu zhang, probably 4 or 5 mantis forms (most of which are only taught in seminars by GM The and the elder masters), all from Shandong.

four roads of Hua quan is definately from northern chang quan...is chang quan and ditang mantis sometimes taught together?

[ninthdrunk]

Honestly, with the lian u chang forms, if I didn't know they were supposed to be similar forms, I might not even draw the connection based on the performance. The SD forms (as usual) seem to have some of the same moves, and elements of movement, but the overall flow and body mechanics are strikingly different.

That's just my take.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The way they may be related to eachother and to the black tiger forms taught in SD is if they are from Shandong. Our black tiger forms also include a lot of low/ground techniques, I wonder if they are related to the ditang quan mentioned as well? Sal, does your ditang quan have any forms called black tiger?
Jie Quan and Jin Gang Fu Hu Quan seem very different from Lian Wu Zhang, though they are closer to eachother. You often do see lineages which include forms from other traditions that don't necessarily "match" their core curriculum...like when a master will learn something from one of his friends, and teach that to his students out of respect for his friend's skill (or something like that). Or two families come together through marriage, or something, and add forms from both into a new "style".

Assuming our black tiger forms are really from Shandong, as we are told they are...then we have : 4 black tigers, lian wu zhang, probably 4 or 5 mantis forms (most of which are only taught in seminars by GM The and the elder masters), all from Shandong.

four roads of Hua quan is definately from northern chang quan...is chang quan and ditang mantis sometimes taught together?

Hmm, Black Tiger is from Shandong / Shantung province, yes.

Both Shandong Black Tiger and Shandong Ditang Quan come from the same school, its one system, based on aspects of Tai Tzu Quan that were elaborated on and became their own styles and sets. In other words, they are from the same Long Fist system dating to Song Dynasty and now based in Shandong.

Four Roads of Hua Quan is FLOWER Hua, not Wah Quan.
It is a Northern Long Fist system, it comes from Gan Feng Shi originally, it is a mixture of Hard Shaolin and Soft Emei Quan. There is no one "Northern Chang Quan" system, there are many systems that are "nothern chang quan" in essense. But not THE system, one of many.
It has nothing to do at all with Shandong styles (Black Tiger, Ditang, Tai Tzu, Hong Quan, Mantis, etc).
Completely different system with its' own rules.
Plumflower has VCDs of all 4 roads.

Jie Quan and Jin Gang Quan are not related to these other styles as well.
Jie Quan is essentially an Eagle Claw form, modern at that.

Northern MANTIS CHANG QUAN is a specific style, now taught commonly in Taiwan that collected a series of forms together from Shandong schools.
it is easy to find info on this style on the internet, it is well known in Taiwan.
Look up Gao Dao-Sheng, who is from Shandong, like: http://www.kungfuleuven.be/main_kungfu.htm

Some Tai Tzu Chang Quan people teach Black Tiger was well in Taiwan and Shandong. Some Long Fist people teach Black Tiger and Northern Mantis together instead.

Some people say the Sin The got his Black Tiger form from a book that came out in the late 60/ early 70s, called Black Tiger Intersectional Boxing. It's supposed to be a Mantis form.

Beggar Style has Black Tiger form as well, that form is from Tai Tzu in its roots.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Honestly, with the lian u chang forms, if I didn't know they were supposed to be similar forms, I might not even draw the connection based on the performance. The SD forms (as usual) seem to have some of the same moves, and elements of movement, but the overall flow and body mechanics are strikingly different.

That's just my take.


Well, these two performers are just kids doing them, have lots of flaws (arms moving disconnected to waist moving, etc). But overall, all the postures are in correct order, minus the non-public moves.

What can I say about the SD versions? Most would say that they are done without the correct ancient traditional CMA natural body mechanics so they look karate like, sorry.

[Leto]

just as you and I didn't see that the two links I had earlier were the same form, it might be hard to see the connection between ours and those...but the elements are all there. The techniques are there, the emphasis is different. flavored by other styles? Who knows. I thought the overall flow was quite similar to mine, the way I learned it in the west. I bet it is a bit different in the east. SD obviously doesn't do things the same way as most "traditional" Chineses styles, otherwise it would be recognized right away as a legit style, or having elements of legit styles.
My mindset is one of reverse engineering and reinterpretation of the flow and body mechanics of many of the forms...mostly out of curiosity to know where all the stuff I was taught really came from. Or at least, where it came from before GM The and his brother, and their teachers in Bandung. Other styles have lineages which tell them approximately who taught who what, and where all the elements of their style came from. All we've got is a tall tale about a hairy monk who mastered styles from all over China. Even if that tale is true, who were his teachers, and what did they teach him? He was supposedly around in the late nineteenth century, when there was plenty of documentation about lineages in the martial arts being formulated. Which temple, and which abbott, and which styles did they know? most other styles go back a lot ****her before they have the tall tales...like to the burning of shaolin and pai mei et al., or to zhang sanfeng, or something like that. Maybe it's not important. It's a little bit like an adopted child wanting to find out about his birth parents. His real "parents" are those who adopted him, but sometimes you just need to know...

This is getting away from the valuable part of the discussion, though. Which is finding solid links between our forms and those of other Chinese styles.

Anyone out there have any info on bird and crane forms? Or black tiger? Part of our problem in SD is that many of our form names are not translated accurately, and they all seem to be in a not-so-common dialect, like fukienese or something. Or maybe we spell them phonectically, and not in correct pinyin, so our transliteration of the words is confusing us and everyone. We need to get the characters for our form names, so people from other styles can better help us out.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Black Tiger is easy, there are a few books out about the style and there is lots of people doing the forms, and you can get VCDs of them forms.

The Crane forms most likely come from Fujian, they usually do, and again there are lots of books and vcds on them.

The Bird forms, I so far haven't come across them in my travels.

[Leto]

I'm not sure our jie quan is related to eagle claw, it seems like the name could be quite common and generic. You'd probably have to see it to tell what group it is related to. It is definately related to the basics they call "Lohan short forms", in SD, and where those came from who knows. Maybe they are related to the basics in Jinwu curriculum. Sin The and his brother were teenagers in the fifties, so modern forms definately aren't out of the question in terms of where SD material came from. (take the 24 posture combined taiji form, for one)

as for the white cranes...they really don't look like any fujian crane forms I've ever seen. maybe they are, but they don't have the fundamentals of the "saam chien" form (which SD also has a version of). Have you seen any fujian crane forms that include drop kicks, rolling and attacking from the ground?

I have the book "black tiger, northern art of shaolin", and it really doesn't look anything like the forms I know. It has different fist formation, basics look different, and the form shown isn't at all similar to ours.
Any way to find that black tiger book from the 60's or 70's, do you think it's still around? The black tiger forms really don't seem like mantis at all, but maybe they have been changed in order to hide their origin.
It seems like mantis would have been the secondary, and that longfist or some other style was the primary, for whoever taught the The brothers Shandong styles. (assuming that one of their teachers taught arts dervied from Shandong, and that all these forms are related, and not just from a bunch of random books)

it's possible that Sin The, having great talent in the martial arts he had learned so far (at least having great enthusiasm), may have turned to books and any other sources he could get his hands on for his continued learning, since he was living in the US from the time he was college age. As awesome a guy as he is, it is very hard to believe he mastered, or even learned the basic shape, of all the stuff the style teaches by the time he was eighteen.
I can actually empathize with this. I would never teach anyone else solely things that I only know from a book...but being alone and without access to a teacher for a long time, and having knowledge and ability in martial arts already, I might learn something new from a book or video. Years later, some of these techniques and movements might be ingrained into my personal style, and if I did teach someone...well some of what they learn would have come from a book.

[kwaichang]

If you are a SD student you should be ashamed for saying such a thing as GMT taught us from books. From old manuscript given to him by GGM Ie but not modern books. also have you ever really learned a form and then did not practice it for a while ?? If so then you know your muscle and body have memory and it is easier to recall. KC

[Meat Shake]

Sin teaches from books.
No doubt about it.
FYI... Manuscripts are what books once were...

[Leto]

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/kungfu/collbk_Mantis1.htm
Here's a book on black tiger intersecting fist. according to this the black tiger intersecting fist is a short set which primarily uses mantis hooking. If this was used as a source for anything, it would have to be one of the mantis forms that is taught, not what we call hei hu quan.

Our hei hu quan has palm strikes, whipping attacks with the palm and claws, fist strikes with unique hand formation. (maybe it is related to the shantung black tiger book I have...we are taught to extend the middle knuckle, but maybe that is a variation of the thumb-on-top fist described in the book and elsewhere as being the special "black tiger fist") Three of the four forms include acrobatic kicking techniques, like cartwheel kicks, flying drop kick, low tiger tail and iron broom sweeps, jumping spinning kicks. Two of the forms also include attacking from the ground, moving along the ground with kicking and clawing techniques, and rolling.

We know Shandong martial arts made their way to Indonesia, the same way it went to Taiwan. According to the story of Hiang The's history, one of the teachers in their shaolin school was from northern China. Did they make up that story to make Hiang The's lineage seem more plausible?

For you long-time SD guys who knew Master The back in the seventies and early eighties, how often did he go back to Indonesia? During the summers? Once or twice a year? How long would he be gone? Did he start teaching new material after a visit home? Somewhere back in this thread, it was stated approximately when master The started teaching the current brown belt material, including lien wu chang and the other "China hand" forms. When did the black tigers first appear? When did tang lang chien and tang lang tse tzu and sze sua chien, and monkey steals the peach first appear?

[Meat Shake]

"China hand" = karate....
:confused: :confused: :eek: :eek: :confused: :confused:

[kwaichang]

Boy MS havent you got anything better to do , better get to training. KC

[Leto]

I'm not saying he did or didn't. I'm saying it's possible. I only want to know the truth. KC, is it true that GM Sin inherited a ton of manuals from master Ie? Is that what he uses to teach everything? Do you think he learned all that stuff first hand, before master Ie died, or was most of it interpreted from the manuscripts? What dialect are our form names in? Who translated them? How come the English translation never seems to match what the Chinese seems to be?
Does anyone know any of this first hand?

I know that memory fades after not practicing something for a while. You can jog your memory and remember it using books and pictures. I've done this. I've also learned new things from books, based on what I remember seeing, and my experience in the style that the book was written about. There's no reason that GM The couldn't do this as well, given his experience and skill.

I'm trying to decipher the code, here. I know there is real, genuine, Chinese martial arts in the SD/CSC style. I'm trying to link the aspects of the Bandung/The style to it's parent arts, and noticing the differences. Were all our form names created in Indonesia, or do they exist somewhere in Chinese martial arts as well? how much in common do they have? The form names are one of the keys to linking styles together...

PS: there are no karate techniques taught in SD/CSC, at least not anymore. I don't know what it was like in the early days. If Sin The practiced karate before he started teaching kung fu, that might explain a little bit...but he certainly doesn't teach any karate now. If you practiced any style of karate it would be apparent.

[kwaichang]

There is a book called Bibishi ? on the spelling any way it has history and connection between the Ryukyu arts and the Chinese as well as pressure strikes etc. might help. KC

[kwaichang]

Also I think he learned prob 95% from GM Ie then the manuscripts helped him to recall uit as he was taught. That is what I have gathered from my time in the art. KC

[Leto]

I was encouraged by the fact that a form of the same name as one of ours, and with very similar techniques and movements, has been "found". This is a basic and probably common form...more advanced forms will be harder to find less likely to match so closely. Like I said originally after seeing the form, it must be three or four generations removed, with lots of changes and differences. The rest of the forms are probably the same way. Maybe the reason it doesn't look like the known Chinese styles is because the lineage holders went to Indonesia before or just after the turn of the twentieth century. A variant of Chinese styles that just doesn't "live" in China anymore. It's grandparents and great grandparents still live in China, though, and that's what I'm curious to see.
It is the same with Okianwan karate, which is what originally led me to search for Chinese martial arts...I really haven't found many modern Chinese styles that look much like karate techniques, since they have changed so much over the last 200-300 years. Only sanchin/saam chien is recognizeable. Some kata I know are definately influenced by crane...but in terms of finding matching forms, there's no luck.

The Bubishi only very generally relates to actual karate techniques. I have a translation of that (there are many variations and versions). It is about the principles and techniques of fujian white crane, and "monk fist" boxing, and includes a couple form poems. It is said that several prominent karate masters used the bubishi as a reference. It is definately a great resource in general, but in terms of specifics, it doesn't really link karate and Chinese arts. (there is one form, happoren/ba bu lien, which is in some karate traditions and is also a form in fujian white crane. this form is described in the book...though the karate version still looks quite different from the crane version.)

[Sal Canzonieri]

ehhh. No offense meant:

When all is said and done, there is no such thing as internal, external and so on but only traditional natural CMA body mechanics, which has flowing movements that are single weighted.

Karate is double weighted and the movements stop the flow.

That's what SD forms are done like, double weighted with disjointed flow, like karate, and so that's what makes SD forms look so different from traditional CMA.

If you take any SD form and do the movements so that they flow seamlessly with single weighted postures, then it will look just like any traditional CMA style.

[Sal Canzonieri]

There was a long article in a recent issue of Classical Fighting Arts where the author did extensive research on the earliest Peijan forms of Okinawan karate and they map up to the form shown in General Qi Qiguan's famous military book.

[kwaichang]

Please explain your biomechanical concept of double and single weighted. KC

[Sal Canzonieri]

Leto, southern Chinese martial arts are full of styles that look a lot like Okinawan karate.

The Go Ju Ryu style is the Five Ancestors style of Southern martial arts, some material.
The Southern Tai Tzu style is where the San Chin form comes from originally.

Five Ancestors got the form from them, as one of the 5 ancestors is the Southern Tai Tzu style.

The Beggar's style of southern china is very much like karate as well, and Five Ancestors is a sister style to Beggar's style.
One of the founder's of Okinawan karate traveled to China and learned Beggar's style and Five Ancestor's style. Spies hid out as beggar.
If read many articles about this topic and these events.
There has been extensive research done on the origins of the Okinawan forms and styles and their direct correlation to specific Southern Chinese martial arts.

You can find them on the internet if you dig around.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Please explain your biomechanical concept of double and single weighted. KC

That when stepping from movement to movement/posture to posture there is no "stopping" posture actually
AND
the body weight is never on two legs at the same time, only one leg when stepping from one movement to another.
The supporting leg's waist fold, the inguinal fold, the Kua in chinese, is always folded in and it opens and closes as the body weight moves from one step to another step.

The fundamental difference between traditional natural CMA and all other things (karate, modern wushu crap, etc, etc) is purely the concept of being single weighted at all times, the waist and the shoulders never being in two opposing directions, the arms not moving independently of the waist, the knee always being in alignment with the front of the toes.
Here read this, this covers the topic:

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle2.htm

[kwaichang]

Ok, I read the article and the same biomechanics are emphasised in Japanese Karate the only difference is the moment of Kime in the Japanese arts. as far as SD is concerned the object is to do what is explained in your article with transitional movements but I will say it is not often emphasised. KC

[Leto]

I'm aware of the correlations between naha te/goju ryu and southern chinese styles like five ancestors and white crane. Shorin ryu/shuri te has less clear correlations. I'll have to look for that article about the Peichurrin and the general's book. Believe me, I have dug around a lot, and there's not a whole lot besides theories about what styles specifically influenced shorin ryu. goju ryu and uechi ryu are much closer to their chinese roots than shorin ryu is.

But this is all off the topic...I'm not questioning karate's Chinese roots, just looking for specifics.
It's the same with SD, except it is much closer to the root Chinese styles. I think most of its forms have matches or near matches in other styles that are currently practiced. Looking at these other styles might tell more about how the SD forms fit together, where to look for more instruction, how to fill in the gaps.
At least in the way I was taught, there are gaps. No offense to the SD believers, but it is obvious to me that we're not doing the forms correctly, (at least according to the way they are classically practiced).
Did GM The or his teachers make innovations that they believe improved upon the classic forms? Did they not know them well enough? Did they just not bother to teach the "real stuff" to us westerners? Whatever the case is, I want to know as much as I can.

before anyone says I should focus on training and not so much on seeking knowledge:
Seeking knowledge is not opposed to sincere practice...it's about adding elements of practice that are useful and removing those that are incorrect or detrimental. You can practice hard at the same time as learning new things and modifying your practice.

[Kung Pao]

Regarding biomechanics, the weight shifting/stepping issue was the first one I had to deal with when stepping into a "purist" CMA style. SD does misso ut on that, but it can be performed it without much trouble. I think that's why SD seems slpooy to some people.

[BlueTravesty]

As a non-SD'er, it kinda makes sense that SD would employ such a structure though- simply because it has in its curriculum so many different systems. Each of these systems emphasize not only different fighting strategies and ways of stepping and transitioning, but also radically different body structures. For example, you have Hua Quan, which is a Northern style. The typical "northern" structure is back straight and in some cases, arched to align with the tailbone, chin down and in, lots of longer-range strikes and kicks, with some throws close in. Then you also have Tiger Crane, a southern form from Hung Gar- the Hung Gar structure is a more "hunched in" head-on approach with more short-range striking, and less grappling. In stances, the butt is tucked in. My guess is to keep all the styles harmonized, the SD currciculum uses a "neutral" posture, body structure, and way of stepping that avoids the particulars of the individual systems so that one does not build contradictory habits.

Just an outsider's theory.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Well, there are so many thousands of people all over the USA now that are either in SD or have been in SD, so it no longer makes sense to keep saying "SD sucks", whether it is true or not is not doing anyone any service right now.

Regardless, SD has Chinese Martial Arts roots and uses forms/sets from various styles.

The most positive thing I can do for any current or former SD person is to help them discover and learn about the original traditional natural Chinese Martial Arts roots of their forms.

Also, learning about the ancient ways to do the sets and body mechanics is an ENORMOUS help making one the best martial arts one can be. By understanding WHY you do something in a set you will be able to apply the movements and make them part of your second nature much more easily and faster, thus you will accelerate your martial arts abilities and your training.

The fact that I have demolished anyone that has ever attacked me I attribute solely to the fact that I have internalized WHY movements work from spending so much time (over 30 years) researching, analyzing, and applying the most ancient and traditional methods, sets, and body mechanics of CMA.

And, the fact that I have been able to save people's lives via martial arts I again attribute to the same thing.

The study of why and where traditional CMA movements come from and their purpose allowed me to have a deep enough knowledge and ability to be able to revive accident victims when nothing else would have worked. Martial Art movement with out nei gong built into the movements is dead movement. It might look like martial art, but it is only dancing.

[Judge Pen]

As a non-SD'er, it kinda makes sense that SD would employ such a structure though- simply because it has in its curriculum so many different systems. Each of these systems emphasize not only different fighting strategies and ways of stepping and transitioning, but also radically different body structures. For example, you have Hua Quan, which is a Northern style. The typical "northern" structure is back straight and in some cases, arched to align with the tailbone, chin down and in, lots of longer-range strikes and kicks, with some throws close in. Then you also have Tiger Crane, a southern form from Hung Gar- the Hung Gar structure is a more "hunched in" head-on approach with more short-range striking, and less grappling. In stances, the butt is tucked in. My guess is to keep all the styles harmonized, the SD currciculum uses a "neutral" posture, body structure, and way of stepping that avoids the particulars of the individual systems so that one does not build contradictory habits.

Just an outsider's theory.

I think this is an unintentional consequence of the various styles that are taught in SD. By the way, the "neutral" posture you reference is actually the postures taught in our short-form (which I've described as the back-bone of SD). It's not that the different principles of Hua or Tiger-Crane are not taught, its just that when its said and then done, people tend to go back to their foundations.

Sal, interesting article on "double-weighted" body mechanics. I'm sure, however, we can put our heads together and find CMA styles that employ double-weighted mechanics. CMA is a large and diverse place.

[Baqualin]

Well, there are so many thousands of people all over the USA now that are either in SD or have been in SD, so it no longer makes sense to keep saying "SD sucks", whether it is true or not is not doing anyone any service right now.

Regardless, SD has Chinese Martial Arts roots and uses forms/sets from various styles.

The most positive thing I can do for any current or former SD person is to help them discover and learn about the original traditional natural Chinese Martial Arts roots of their forms.

Also, learning about the ancient ways to do the sets and body mechanics is an ENORMOUS help making one the best martial arts one can be. By understanding WHY you do something in a set you will be able to apply the movements and make them part of your second nature much more easily and faster, thus you will accelerate your martial arts abilities and your training.

The fact that I have demolished anyone that has ever attacked me I attribute solely to the fact that I have internalized WHY movements work from spending so much time (over 30 years) researching, analyzing, and applying the most ancient and traditional methods, sets, and body mechanics of CMA.

And, the fact that I have been able to save people's lives via martial arts I again attribute to the same thing.

The study of why and where traditional CMA movements come from and their purpose allowed me to have a deep enough knowledge and ability to be able to revive accident victims when nothing else would have worked. Martial Art movement with out nei gong built into the movements is dead movement. It might look like martial art, but it is only dancing.

Thanks for your attitude Sal....most all SDers are very dedicated to the CMA's and any insight or constructive criticism you have is more than welcome
A lot of the problems with SD is the size of our organization...by the time a form gets passed on by various teachers it is slightly changed each time from person to person...it's no longer one or two teachers, teaching everyone
BQ

[Sal Canzonieri]

I think this is an unintentional consequence of the various styles that are taught in SD. By the way, the "neutral" posture you reference is actually the postures taught in our short-form (which I've described as the back-bone of SD). It's not that the different principles of Hua or Tiger-Crane are not taught, its just that when its said and then done, people tend to go back to their foundations.

Sal, interesting article on "double-weighted" body mechanics. I'm sure, however, we can put our heads together and find CMA styles that employ double-weighted mechanics. CMA is a large and diverse place.

If a CMA style "became" double-weighted over time via "playing telephone" and doing things the lazy or ignorant way, then this is more a reflect of teacher's screwing this up than a CMA style that is "Supposed" to be double weighted.
Double weighted means death, as anyone that knows sword sets understands (hopefully).

What might appear as a double-weighted CMA, such as southern CMA that are used on boats (Southern Tai Tzu, beggar's style, Wing Chun, etc) are in actuality using the body as a surfer or skateboarder would (or like when you are standing on a subway floor without having a pole to hold on to), which means you are shifting weight to one side of the other very smoothly. If you stayed completely double weighted when subway surfing, you would tip over.

[Crushing Fist]

Sal - I am very interested in your understanding of body mechanics.


One things I would like to clear up is this:

You said that Karate is double weighted

You also said that double weighted means death.


The natural inference is that you feel karate to be at best misguided, and at worst completely useless.

Could you reconcile your meaning of these two points to make it a bit more clear?


For the record, I have been taught in SD not to be double weighted in most circumstances.

[Lamassu]

What might appear as a double-weighted CMA, such as southern CMA that are used on boats (Southern Tai Tzu, beggar's style, Wing Chun, etc) are in actuality using the body as a surfer or skateboarder would (or like when you are standing on a subway floor without having a pole to hold on to), which means you are shifting weight to one side of the other very smoothly. If you stayed completely double weighted when subway surfing, you would tip over.

Kewl! :cool: I thought I was the only one who subway surfed (or 'L' surfing here in Chicago). It was very difficult at first, but I learned how to shift my body weight in accordance with the g-forces in play and now find my stances are more firmly rooted. :)

Everything is Training!!!

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal - I am very interested in your understanding of body mechanics.


One things I would like to clear up is this:

You said that Karate is double weighted

You also said that double weighted means death.


The natural inference is that you feel karate to be at best misguided, and at worst completely useless.

Could you reconcile your meaning of these two points to make it a bit more clear?


For the record, I have been taught in SD not to be double weighted in most circumstances.

Not that karate sucks, Okinawan Karate is great.

Just that much modern mcDojo 'karate' has by process of playing telephone watered down and all double weighted.

By death I mean that you simply cannot on the street do double weighted moves, you will be anchored with a strong stance in only one direction. Ancient sources always implied that double weightedness would cause your death. IN a confrontation you have to be as nimble AND flexibly rooted as a bull fighter is.

Also even if not double weighted there has to be smooth flow, like a leveraging machine, so that energy is not cut off between the movements.
The action is BETWEEN the postures, not the postures themselves in a form.
The postures are only transition movements.

Modern karate thinks of Horse stance, bow stance, etc as posture to "stop" at, like stations, when doing a kata. Whereas, real CMA uses postures when going through someone, they are used in action not frozen, the action between the postures do the real work and the postures are transition movements to the next flowing part.

[Crushing Fist]

Not that karate sucks, Okinawan Karate is great.

Just that much modern mcDojo 'karate' has by process of playing telephone watered down and all double weighted.

By death I mean that you simply cannot on the street do double weighted moves, you will be anchored with a strong stance in only one direction. Ancient sources always implied that double weightedness would cause your death. IN a confrontation you have to be as nimble AND flexibly rooted as a bull fighter is.

Also even if not double weighted there has to be smooth flow, like a leveraging machine, so that energy is not cut off between the movements.
The action is BETWEEN the postures, not the postures themselves in a form.
The postures are only transition movements.

Modern karate thinks of Horse stance, bow stance, etc as posture to "stop" at, like stations, when doing a kata. Whereas, real CMA uses postures when going through someone, they are used in action not frozen, the action between the postures do the real work and the postures are transition movements to the next flowing part.



Yes, I agree with all of this.

I think that any martial art, done well, will have these principles.

[kwaichang]

I agree except your concept of Karate is wrong as a STOP and then continueing on KC

[The Xia]

I agree with kwaichang that Karate is not "stop and go". I think "stop and go" movement is more something that beginners of any style often do.

[kwaichang]

Hey Xia I am going to find a way to print your post and frame it , we finally agreed about something KC

[The Xia]

I was thinking about adding a part about hell freezing over but decided to let it stand as is. :D
Now all we need is something for you and Meatshake to agree on! :eek:

[Sal Canzonieri]

yeah, if only people were going past that beginner stage, but they aren't.
Come on, these mcdojo's (there are 10 karate schools in a 3 mile radius where I live in NJ!!!!!) are churning out black belts at 12 years of age like it was a white belt.
By 20 years old they haven't gone past doing this craparate that they are learning in mass. My favorite thing to do at a party is to tell one of these people to attack me with their best shot, and I take them down in seconds and then gently place them down on the ground like they were little babies. They always look amazed. Till I tell them that they just spend 10 years getting ripped off and then they look not happy.

IF you don't know that you didn't learn the correct things, then how do you know what is correct when you see it? You can't, you can't recognize it, you're blind to it, someone has to specifically point details out to you in that case.

How can a novice go into a class and "observe" the school, what the heck do they know? How in any way possible would this novice knowing by "observing" if the school is just junk? How would they know what to look for? How would they recognize excellence?

[The Xia]

I don't judge styles by mcdojos that claim to teach them. Mcdojos don't truly represent the arts they claim to teach. It’s the real practitioners that show what a style is about.

[Citong Shifu]

I don't judge styles by mcdojos that claim to teach them. Mcdojos don't truly represent the arts they claim to teach. It’s the real practitioners that show what a style is about.

Good post Xia, well said.

[Crushing Fist]

How can a novice go into a class and "observe" the school, what the heck do they know? How in any way possible would this novice knowing by "observing" if the school is just junk? How would they know what to look for? How would they recognize excellence?

I think that a reasonably intelligent and unbiased person can tell the difference between mediocrity and excellence in most things, when shown both.

If they had never seen excellence, mediocrity may be thought more than it is, but upon seeing true excellence, it generally speaks for itself.

[kwaichang]

TRUE, HOWEVER there is more mediocrity than excellence. When I 1st started it was different there were few if any schools, In the town I worked in at 18 , there were 65000 people and only 2 schools of MA and no CMA at all/ KC

[Judge Pen]

What might appear as a double-weighted CMA, such as southern CMA that are used on boats (Southern Tai Tzu, beggar's style, Wing Chun, etc) are in actuality using the body as a surfer or skateboarder would (or like when you are standing on a subway floor without having a pole to hold on to), which means you are shifting weight to one side of the other very smoothly. If you stayed completely double weighted when subway surfing, you would tip over.

That's what I'm interested in. Hung Gar for example. The tiger-crane sets that I've seen outside of SD start in a stable horse stance or a "triangle" stance like wing-chun. I understand that many of these styles developed because of boat fighting, but the forms don't reflect the surfing motion as you point out. Their stance is strong and stable.

I will say that many forms in SD and in other CMA have stable stances for conditioning purposes, but the stance itslef is ony a transition from move to move. At least that's my understanding, but I can see from the earlier posts (that I didn't read until I started posting) that this concept has already been discussed.

[Sal Canzonieri]

That's what I'm interested in. Hung Gar for example. The tiger-crane sets that I've seen outside of SD start in a stable horse stance or a "triangle" stance like wing-chun. I understand that many of these styles developed because of boat fighting, but the forms don't reflect the surfing motion as you point out. Their stance is strong and stable.

I will say that many forms in SD and in other CMA have stable stances for conditioning purposes, but the stance itslef is ony a transition from move to move. At least that's my understanding, but I can see from the earlier posts (that I didn't read until I started posting) that this concept has already been discussed.

BECAUSE:
The opening stances for these forms are CHI-Gong / Nei Gong, you are supposed to use special breathing methods to cultivate "chi" and then have it flow through you when you do the rest of the form's movements.

Forms in CMA aren't only a collection of techniques for self-defense, they are first and foremost nei-gong exercises. The internal aspects are interwoven into the movements, forms are for generating health, they are moving yoga.
As opposed to chi-gong exercises where you maintain a static posture, forms allow muscle-tendon stretching and strengthening, along with deep breathing benefits.
So, that's why the openings of every CMA is a standing posture, they are internal movements.

(and the Wing Chun 'triangle' stance and hung gar horse stance are indeed from boat use, read the history of these styles, they came from members of the opera that lived on boats)

[Judge Pen]

BECAUSE:
The opening stances for these forms are CHI-Gong / Nei Gong, you are supposed to use special breathing methods to cultivate "chi" and then have it flow through you when you do the rest of the form's movements.

Forms in CMA aren't only a collection of techniques for self-defense, they are first and foremost nei-gong exercises. The internal aspects are interwoven into the movements, forms are for generating health, they are moving yoga.
As opposed to chi-gong exercises where you maintain a static posture, forms allow muscle-tendon stretching and strengthening, along with deep breathing benefits.
So, that's why the openings of every CMA is a standing posture, they are internal movements.

(and the Wing Chun 'triangle' stance and hung gar horse stance are indeed from boat use, read the history of these styles, they came from members of the opera that lived on boats)

I wasn't disputing the history of the stances and their original intent, I was just saying that their typically isn't a "surfing" motion in those stances. I appreciate the nei-gong aspects of these styles. It's just that hung gar really emphasizes this in the begining of forms such as Tiger-Crane. Its also great strenghting and conditioning as well.

[Citong Shifu]

I wasn't disputing the history of the stances and their original intent, I was just saying that their typically isn't a "surfing" motion in those stances. I appreciate the nei-gong aspects of these styles. It's just that hung gar really emphasizes this in the begining of forms such as Tiger-Crane. Its also great strenghting and conditioning as well.


This is very interesting! Southern styles of kungfu and the short deep stances. Let me reply to the boat theory first. This is true, when on the boats kungfu stylist would use a short deep stance, but out of the boat, they would use what was natural and necessary for that situation.

Forms in general are or were trained as a way to condition the body (internal / external, ROM, flexibility, speed, power, stability, etc) and martial technique / principles. These forms were designed to be trained with the person working from unusual and restrictive postions so that the person could react with confidence while being at a disadvantage point. So, when a person moved naturally they would be 100 times stronger, faster, etc... Regardless if in a short, high, long, deep stance...

I bring this up because there is always so much debate on this stance and that stance. Northern or southern. Etc.

I know there are differences between how the teachers teach there art, short deep horse vs. triangle horse, etc. However training the forms are a guide and condition the body. If you think for one minute Wong Fei Hung only use short deep stance and low kicks all the time or an old time Wing Chun master only used the short restrictive WC footwork training in a real situation, then some more research is advisable...

You guys can take this for what you think its worth, but remember, once you limit yourself to one way of doing something, you have limited your overall potential...

This post does not mean to be demeaning, just find it curious that so many debates arise over this or that stance work....

Respectfully.
Ron.

[Sal Canzonieri]

This is very interesting! Southern styles of kungfu and the short deep stances. Let me reply to the boat theory first. This is true, when on the boats kun