Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[kwaichang]

What do you mean by this ??

Boy, is my face red.

Some people call those who dont gently tell them that their bull**** is really pudding rude and *******s. No sweat off my ass.

Cant figure out what your trying to say. KC

[BM2]

Bubba, do you really think you can say anything to change their minds?
The worst part is, I think I was like that too at one time :confused:

[kungfujunky]

he isnt trying to change any minds. he thinks he knows exactly how a person acts because of a post he read online.

im not defending anything besides the fact that his posts are presumptious to say the least. and very aggressive.

if he has such a high level of martial ethics then he could have just as easily pmed sw to chat amiably about their difference of opinion.

instead he made threats and called names


wow very grown up.

i dont know you bubba but from your posts i am not impressed. but i certainly am open to the idea that online personas are always a bit different than what a person actually is.

im sure your a great martial artist and very respectful but your posts did not say that. all i saw in sw posts was a guy excited that he had done some research and checked some places out only to find he was where HE wanted to be all along.

just because he was able to slap a guy around does not mean he did it out of disrespect for the person or their art.

[Meat Shake]

What do you mean by this ??

Boy, is my face red.

Some people call those who dont gently tell them that their bull**** is really pudding rude and *******s. No sweat off my ass.

Cant figure out what your trying to say. KC



The first sentence is in regard to wookie saying something about I got told or something along those lines. I dont feel like reading back.
The second is in regards to you getting upset that I call shots as I see them and dont sugar coat things. Thick skin is a good thing to have.
No sweat off my ass means I dont really care if people think Im rude or not.

Why isnt ass censored? Weird.

Anyhow... I dont really care enough to argue anymore.
SD wasnt made for fighting as I learned, and I was trained by both my sifu in san antonio and master schaeffer in austin. I was never really impressed other than by my lack of knowledge.
Like I said many times.... Great for staying in shape, terrible for fighting.
If you took the material taught for just 1 belt and worked on that, you may accomplish something. Trying to learn the entire system will get you nowhere....
But good luck trying, I just hope you never have to use what you have tried to learn against someone who actually knows how to fight.

[Judge Pen]

The first sentence is in regard to wookie saying something about I got told or something along those lines. I dont feel like reading back.
The second is in regards to you getting upset that I call shots as I see them and dont sugar coat things. Thick skin is a good thing to have.
No sweat off my ass means I dont really care if people think Im rude or not.

Why isnt ass censored? Weird.

Anyhow... I dont really care enough to argue anymore.
SD wasnt made for fighting as I learned, and I was trained by both my sifu in san antonio and master schaeffer in austin. I was never really impressed other than by my lack of knowledge.
Like I said many times.... Great for staying in shape, terrible for fighting.
If you took the material taught for just 1 belt and worked on that, you may accomplish something. Trying to learn the entire system will get you nowhere....
But good luck trying, I just hope you never have to use what you have tried to learn against someone who actually knows how to fight.

I have, MS, and I did ok so I can't agree that you can't use it for fighting. I'll agree that most of the time the people in SD don't train in a way that would translate to fighting, but that's an individual problem and not a problem of the style itself. As I said earlier, If I were training for a"fight" then my methods of training what I know of SD would need to change. More drilling, more live work at all ranges--not just the typical SD class and forms work, but all the moves I would need would be in my forms.

Having said that, please don't think that I'm implying any disrespect to SC or your teacher. I haven't encountered anyone in SC, in person, and I would like to see what that is about. I, like SW, have worked out with and visited several other schools--there's a lot of good stuff out there, but for me I enjoy and can use what I'm taught in SD.

[kwaichang]

MS I trained in austin too PM me as to who you are I may know you if you are so inclined I will do the same. KC

[Bubba O'Reilly]

I'm also lacking in Chinese comprehension as well:rolleyes: . Care to elaborate? I speak Latin, French, Spanish, English (a little bit). I might take Chinese in grad school, if they'll let me. If you want to sound intelligent, translate it into either Latin, French, Spanish, and English, and we'll all be impressed, but maybe, just maybe, you'll make your point to me?:confused:

Spanish -- Virtud Marcial

It means in the barest & lowest level ... manners.



Funny though, I'm on an internet forum to talk to people about martial arts, because I don't know anyone outside of my school who would want to talk MA's at all, under any circumstances. Why the-hell-else would I be on here? BTW, my Master and I look nothing alike.

That's fine, but you missed what I said.


Self-respect is more important than rep. I respect myself, and I do my own dirty work, and I work hard at the things I do. If people think I'm an *******, well, they're probably right.

Again... you missed what I said.

[Bubba O'Reilly]

Bubba, do you really think you can say anything to change their minds?
The worst part is, I think I was like that too at one time :confused:

Nah not at all... just pointing out something that's stressed in most CMA schools that apparently they're lacking.

[Bubba O'Reilly]

Because he rubbed me the wrong way



Nah... nothing's impossible... however, a little manners goes a long way in telling the story

good point but it could also be your perception of his telling that is off.

It's possible but I'm doubting it.


Well... then what's the point?

the point is im sure the round was handled respectfully

How so? How's it handled respectfully if he comes in talking about "slapping around" a student of another school with the same training time as him. Do you see any commentary from the other school? Would you be as forgiving of the other school if they came on here talking about "slapping" him around?


What's the difference? If you're trading hands, you're trading hands. Otherwise you're playing pattycake.

true but there is trading hands with respect and their is beating a lesser fighter up just because you can

True, but can it said with certainty that the person was a "lesser fighter" since it wasn't a serious match? Was there consideration given or offered that maybe the other person was sparring down to his level?



Here we go with the slapping again. If you don't play the game that a person is accustomed to playing, chances are you're coming out on top just by confusing them. Don't mistake that for being better, take it for being different.

so i should fight down to my opponent because he doesnt know what im doing? that is a silly statement my friend

Well see here's the difference... it wasn't a fight. It was sparring. Tag... play fighting... nothing serious or on the line. So why should a person who is better or is conceivably better than their play partner go full on if they're just playing?



BTW... in that 5 years he said he trained... how many hours was that?

3 days a week he said. not sure his exact training routine.

Hmmm... begs the addage quality not quantity.



I never said that actually.

no but you implied that he had to have been a monster to achieve it


Yep I did because of his statements and implied of handling a student in the student's school with little or no effort.


And exactly what "style" is it?

depends on who im fighting actually. it can be tiger or crane or ba gua or tai chi(my preferred style) or monkey. still working on mantis but love the pressure point stuff

Hmmm... so you have no set style of fighting that you adapt to any situation. You have to "switch flavors" as it were. How can you switch like that when you have no real background training in any of the flavors?


Who says I haven't? Who says I have? Who's making presumptions now?

so far you have made presumptions and rude comments because you didnt perceive someones post in a way that you liked.

How can being direct & forthright be rude?


all you have done is criticize and mock. made presumptions about a persons character and claimed he would be called out in his school because you got rubbed the wrong way.

Oh trust me... I haven't mocked anything or anybody.


your attitude has come off as extremely rude to me. so i will presume you have not crossed hands with sd folks. if you have please let us know how big of a monster you were THAT day

Presume what you will. Your perrogative. It's too bad you don't have a clue about what I'm talking about though to understand what I'm saying. As far as me being a monster in sparring... far from it. But I do ok. Sometimes I win, sometimes I loose. Most of the time I do what most people who spar as SD does... play.

[Bubba O'Reilly]

he isnt trying to change any minds. he thinks he knows exactly how a person acts because of a post he read online.

You're right. Not trying to change any minds at all. As far as knowing exactly how he acts, I haven't got a clue. However based on what I read & the impression it made...


im not defending anything besides the fact that his posts are presumptious to say the least. and very aggressive.


I'm hardly agressive. Actually I'm quite laid back & non-confrontational in most situations. However, I do not mind hollering off-sides when called for.


if he has such a high level of martial ethics then he could have just as easily pmed sw to chat amiably about their difference of opinion.


True, but if SW understood basic Mo Duk I wouldn't even have this conversation.


instead he made threats and called names


Haven't done it yet to my knowledge, but if you can point it out, I'd be glad to see exactly who I threatened or called names.


wow very grown up.


Nah... I'm a kid at heart with an old body.


i dont know you bubba but from your posts i am not impressed. but i certainly am open to the idea that online personas are always a bit different than what a person actually is.

That's great because honestly I'm not out to impress people. I just saw a sitation that needed something said & so I did.


im sure your a great martial artist and very respectful but your posts did not say that. all i saw in sw posts was a guy excited that he had done some research and checked some places out only to find he was where HE wanted to be all along.

I try to be respectful, but people sometimes confuse things like disrespect with a deserved chewing or rude with forthrightness. All he had to say was he was happy after checking other schools & I would've never shown up. But he didn't so I did.


just because he was able to slap a guy around does not mean he did it out of disrespect for the person or their art.

Ever hear it's not what you say but how you say it?

[MasterKiller]

I think Shaolin Wookie said he's got 2 years in SD, so he's not even a blackbelt yet (probably).

He's just a dumb kid excited about training and hasn't had the time or the experience to really understand anything. Take what he says with a grain of salt.

[Bubba O'Reilly]

I think Shaolin Wookie said he's got 2 years in SD, so he's not even a blackbelt yet (probably).

Yeah I think I saw something about that, but growing up manners were instilled early & in the MA's just as early. Every CMA player I know though has been taught their school's version Mo Duk. Kinda makes you go :confused:, don't it? ;)


He's just a dumb kid excited about training and hasn't had the time or the experience to really understand anything. Take what he says with a grain of salt.

True. Very true.

[ZhuFu]

Does anyone know the name of Grandmaster Sin's TV program on KET? I'm on their website and have searched high and low in their archives but can't find it.

The title of the TV Series was:

"The Karate Television Series"

The book that came with the videos you could order from KET is simply called 'Karate"

Here is the info from the book:

Karate, c/o KET
600 Cooper Drive
Lexington, KY 40502

[ZhuFu]

[QUOTE=ZhuFu;742216]The title of the TV Series was:

I scanned a picture of the book for the Karate Series that came with the video series:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u5/zhufu/SinThekaratebook.png

This was pre-shao-lin Do era

[John Many Jars]

True, but can it said with certainty that the person was a "lesser fighter" since it wasn't a serious match? Was there consideration given or offered that maybe the other person was sparring down to his level?




Well see here's the difference... it wasn't a fight. It was sparring. Tag... play fighting... nothing serious or on the line. So why should a person who is better or is conceivably better than their play partner go full on if they're just playing?


I agree w/ these statements. At our school if you're sparring a lower belt you are supposed to spar down to that persons level. Especially if it's that person's first day. It's a fine balance, at least for me, between not wanting to scare away a perspective student (by going too hard or fast) and still being able to show them that the school has something worthwhile to offer.

IMVHO, when the more experienced person drops down to a less experienced person's level it becomes easier for the more experienced person to eat shots they wouldn't normally eat. The timing is off because the punches are coming in slower, you're evaluating what they're throwing at you to offer tips to make what they're doing more effective or efficient, etc. The problem increases when the new student has already studied MA. You have no idea of there skill level but it's still in your mind not to go too hard.

I have no idea if this is what happened w/ SW and his partner as I wasn't there.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I think Shaolin Wookie said he's got 2 years in SD, so he's not even a blackbelt yet (probably).

He's just a dumb kid excited about training and hasn't had the time or the experience to really understand anything. Take what he says with a grain of salt.

Hahaha...........:rolleyes:

I hear that all the time on here. Ya know.....2 years isn't a lot....but it's not nothing. You had to study for those same 2 years to get to where you are right now. You didn't learn anything in those two years? I have a piddling 2 years, yes, and a lifetime of intense athletics.:D I have the cardio of a distance runner (min. 35 miles/week on top of training:D ). I think that helps a little, don't you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterKiller
I think Shaolin Wookie said he's got 2 years in SD, so he's not even a blackbelt yet (probably).

Yeah I think I saw something about that, but growing up manners were instilled early & in the MA's just as early. Every CMA player I know though has been taught their school's version Mo Duk. Kinda makes you go , don't it?

Seriously, Bubba....you don't have a sense of humor, do you? Believe me, I'm polite. But I'm not talking to a person. I'm talking to a troll (Lungushan, is that you?) It is precisely when people start throwing around Dim Mok Du Wu Deus Ex Machina reprobations that I tend to think......oh my god, here comes someone with no sense of humor......"you will address me as sensei, young reprobate"......:rolleyes:

You're on an internet forum. Get over yourself. This isn't quite life and death.

I'm laughing my ass off, b/c this doesn't come down to ethics, morality, maturity, or anything else. You decided to read a post in a certain tone, and then got a little miffed that an SD guy actually used his bogus kung-fu to "slap around" a WC guy with "little effort".:rolleyes: :D Would you have been as miffed had I said my SD proved inferior and a WC guy slapped me silly because I couldn't keep up with him? No, you'd probably say....go check out D. Lin's Shuai Chou school and learn how to really fight............

Well, you already did say that.

Well, I don't know about you, but I've never sparred with little or no effort. Had I used little or no effort, the WC guy would have slapped me around silly.:eek:

What you seem to have a problem with is the manner in which I wrote my post, b/c obviously you got the impression that I think I'm invincible with my pre-blackbelt material, and that I went around laying the smackdown on every tom, ****, and harry in the ATL. Didn't quite go down like that. Guys who know me on here (there's one or two I know of) could quickly say---naw, man, he's good for a browbelt, but that's a bout it. If you want to offer writing advice, go ahead. I'm always open to that (I'm a writer, too....and a painter.....so I'm open to criticism). But the ethics of internet posting?

I scoff at this. Scoff! Scoff!

For specifics, it was sparring. You get hit. He picked the pace and hte level of impact. The guy knew I had 2 years experience (Iso did he-2 years....or did you miss that, too?) I'm laid back. I didn't issue a challenge. He said, use what you know. He didn't say, use my first-day material at WC. I didn't have any. But he said: why don't you join in the sparring, even though you don't have any material? Just use what you know. (wink wink...I slowed down to his pace after 3 minutes, when I realized there was a skill gap, and he kept turning his back and getting swept)......

When we were finished, we shook hands, smiled, said: that was a good match. After class, we talked about MA for 25 minutes. It was cool to go "shopping around," as I realized there were a lot of people very interested in MA, and passionate about their training.

You seem to have the image of a Shaw Bros movie in your head, where I laid out a challenge and took on a school. For Christ's sake, man........:D ......hahahaha.......

He asked me to spar. So I did. I owned. Good day. Story done.

Why don't you just get the **** over it? Or........perhaps it was you I slapped around with little or no effort?:D

Come on, man...........develop a sense of humor.

This issue is finished.

[MasterKiller]

I hear that all the time on here. Ya know.....2 years isn't a lot....but it's not nothing.

It's an associates degree, at best. You know what an associates gets you in the real world? Maybe $2 an hour more than the guy who barely passed high school. :rolleyes:

You had to study for those same 2 years to get to where you are right now. You didn't learn anything in those two years? I've learned enough since then to know after 2 years I didn't know d1ck.

I have a piddling 2 years, yes, and a lifetime of intense athletics.:D I have the cardio of a distance runner (min. 35 miles/week on top of training:D ). I think that helps a little, don't you?. Not really. Running 35 miles a week doesn't have anything to do with martial arts or fighting. Pro fighters don't run 35 miles a week. Most of them don't run 5 miles a week. Being an athelete is great, but unless you were a combat athelete (Judo, boxing, wrestling, etc...), it doesn't give you a bump in the experience category. Sorry, bro.

Your own style doesn't even recognize you as an official student until you reach your black belt.

[brucereiter]

It's an associates degree, at best. You know what an associates gets you in the real world? Maybe $2 an hour more than the guy who barely passed high school. :rolleyes:

I've learned enough since then to know after 2 years I didn't know d1ck.

each time a gain a new level of understanding with my martial arts practice it makes me a beginner all over again ... as you peel away the layers of skill you will always find a way that you can improve.


Not really. Running 35 miles a week doesn't have anything to do with martial arts or fighting. Pro fighters don't run 35 miles a week. Most of them don't run 5 miles a week. Being an athelete is great, but unless you were a combat athelete (Judo, boxing, wrestling, etc...), it doesn't give you a bump in the experience category. Sorry, bro.

true :-) ... having good physical condition is helpful but it does not translate to martial skill or understanding ...


Your own style doesn't even recognize you as an official student until you reach your black belt.
this is in a sense true. you are not really even a beginner until you have reached 1st black. then you should have the tools to start learning martial arts.

that time is about 3 years ... in this time you learn basics. its just most do not take the time to practice the basics they just "learn" them :-)

best,

bruce

[BoulderDawg]

Two years is not a lot of time. Personally I don't think anyone should even be near a black belt in that time period. However at the CSC one can very easily go from white belt to black belt in less than 15 months.

[brucereiter]

[QUOTE=ZhuFu;742216]The title of the TV Series was:

I scanned a picture of the book for the Karate Series that came with the video series:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u5/zhufu/SinThekaratebook.png

This was pre-shao-lin Do era

hi zhufu,

thanks for the picture. does the book talk about tai chi chuan, pakua chang or hsing i chuan? if so would you share what it says?

best,

bruce

[Shaolin Wookie]

:D The WC guy I sparred had 2 years as well, and he was a black belt......hahaha.....:D

Me, I'm waiting 3.:cool:

Ah well, I'm a noob.

Anyone who wants to take issue with me: I am accepting all challenges, so long as they are submitted in writing. But only I can pick Law or Lei....and we're playing Tekken Tag...none of that soft wishy-washy Tekken 4 or 5 crap.

Bring your own beer, beeyotch!!:D

[ZhuFu]

[QUOTE=ZhuFu;742232]

hi zhufu,

thanks for the picture. does the book talk about tai chi chuan, pakua chang or hsing i chuan? if so would you share what it says?

best,

bruce

My pleasure...

I always thought the book was a little odd, being that this was supposed to be kung fu.
In the first chapter it talks about the Samurai Soard, Nunchaku, Bo, Sai, Tonfa, Swriken stars, and Kris with the only mention of a traditional Chinese weapon being the spear. Another oddity is that his name is spelled Sin Kuang The, rather than Sin Kwang The.
There is very little history and background in the book, it does mention Tai Chi and Pa Kua but not much is said (A Shao-lin Do Association Manual, or Chinese Shao-lin Center manual has more info, depending on which empire you belong too).
Its mainly a book of drawings of 2 people going thru Chin Na, Ippons, and Techniques.

[Bubba O'Reilly]

Hahaha...........:rolleyes:

I hear that all the time on here. Ya know.....2 years isn't a lot....but it's not nothing. You had to study for those same 2 years to get to where you are right now. You didn't learn anything in those two years? I have a piddling 2 years, yes, and a lifetime of intense athletics.:D I have the cardio of a distance runner (min. 35 miles/week on top of training:D ). I think that helps a little, don't you?


Nah not really... it just means you can keep a cardio pace with a long distance runner. In many CMA schools two years of training time equals getting a pretty good grip on the basics, not much else.


Seriously, Bubba....you don't have a sense of humor, do you? Believe me, I'm polite. But I'm not talking to a person. I'm talking to a troll (Lungushan, is that you?) It is precisely when people start throwing around Dim Mok Du Wu Deus Ex Machina reprobations that I tend to think......oh my god, here comes someone with no sense of humor......"you will address me as sensei, young reprobate"......:rolleyes:

Actually I have a well developed sense of humor when something's funny. When it's not & in bad taste, I tend to not laugh much.

As to being a troll... hardly.


You're on an internet forum. Get over yourself. This isn't quite life and death.


Sure it's not. Never said it was. Again you missed the point of what I was trying to tell you. But that's ok... it's to be expected I guess.


I'm laughing my ass off, b/c this doesn't come down to ethics, morality, maturity, or anything else. You decided to read a post in a certain tone, and then got a little miffed that an SD guy actually used his bogus kung-fu to "slap around" a WC guy with "little effort".:rolleyes: :D Would you have been as miffed had I said my SD proved inferior and a WC guy slapped me silly because I couldn't keep up with him? No, you'd probably say....go check out D. Lin's Shuai Chou school and learn how to really fight............

Nope, but at least you wouldn't have come on bragging about it. Or if you had people would've probably congratulated you in learning something new. However you came on bragging about "this", saying you "learned all that" in a handful of intro classes. That's what got me miffed.


Well, you already did say that.

Nope didn't say it... suggested you go see him with the same attitude you present here & bring up gong sau so you could experience "the real deal" instead of sparring, but never said out right to go. There's a difference.


Well, I don't know about you, but I've never sparred with little or no effort. Had I used little or no effort, the WC guy would have slapped me around silly.:eek:

Well, from the way you started off, you put it out there as it didn't take much. How were we supposed to know that?


What you seem to have a problem with is the manner in which I wrote my post, b/c obviously you got the impression that I think I'm invincible with my pre-blackbelt material, and that I went around laying the smackdown on every tom, ****, and harry in the ATL. Didn't quite go down like that. Guys who know me on here (there's one or two I know of) could quickly say---naw, man, he's good for a browbelt, but that's a bout it. If you want to offer writing advice, go ahead. I'm always open to that (I'm a writer, too....and a painter.....so I'm open to criticism). But the ethics of internet posting?


Ethics of internet posting are the same ethics you should use daily. Be nice, be polite, don't speak badly about other because it may come back to haunt you, etc... A good up bringing in MA ought to be like a good upbringing at home. You ever hear "If you don't have anything good to say, don't say it"?


I scoff at this. Scoff! Scoff!

You can see a doctor about that & probably get a prescription to fix it.


For specifics, it was sparring. You get hit. He picked the pace and hte level of impact. The guy knew I had 2 years experience (Iso did he-2 years....or did you miss that, too?) I'm laid back. I didn't issue a challenge. He said, use what you know. He didn't say, use my first-day material at WC. I didn't have any. But he said: why don't you join in the sparring, even though you don't have any material? Just use what you know. (wink wink...I slowed down to his pace after 3 minutes, when I realized there was a skill gap, and he kept turning his back and getting swept)......

Left out that juicy detail too huh?


When we were finished, we shook hands, smiled, said: that was a good match. After class, we talked about MA for 25 minutes. It was cool to go "shopping around," as I realized there were a lot of people very interested in MA, and passionate about their training.

Well at least you showed good manners in person.


You seem to have the image of a Shaw Bros movie in your head, where I laid out a challenge and took on a school. For Christ's sake, man........:D ......hahahaha.......

Nah... Shaw brothers are over rated.


He asked me to spar. So I did. I owned. Good day. Story done.

You still don't get it, but whatever works for you.


Why don't you just get the **** over it? Or........perhaps it was you I slapped around with little or no effort?:D

Nah... not quite.


Come on, man...........develop a sense of humor.

This issue is finished.

Like I said, my sense of humor is excellent when there's something to enjoy.

[brucereiter]

[QUOTE=shaolindoiscool;742267]

My pleasure...

I always thought the book was a little odd, being that this was supposed to be kung fu.
In the first chapter it talks about the Samurai Soard, Nunchaku, Bo, Sai, Tonfa, Swriken stars, and Kris with the only mention of a traditional Chinese weapon being the spear. Another oddity is that his name is spelled Sin Kuang The, rather than Sin Kwang The.
There is very little history and background in the book, it does mention Tai Chi and Pa Kua but not much is said (A Shao-lin Do Association Manual, or Chinese Shao-lin Center manual has more info, depending on which empire you belong too).
Its mainly a book of drawings of 2 people going thru Chin Na, Ippons, and Techniques.

thanks for the info ... :-)

[kwaichang]

Why is it that todays NEW martial artist have little or no regard for protocol and Manners ??? This is a trend I have noticed that has been around since the early 2000's. I have seen it on this forum and even in the schools themselves. WHATS WITH THAT /// ??? KC

[Judge Pen]

Every CMA player I know though has been taught their school's version Mo Duk.

Maybe, but everyone seems to forget their manners on an internet forum. And without being able to read tone and body-language, its easy to misconstrue things that are said. Point in fact, I thought you were being a bit to harsh on your commentary to SW, but since you've explained your position, perhaps I just misunderstood you.

As for SW's experiences, at least he's out there checking out other styles. All too often SD people are accused of keeping their heads in the sand. He doesn't and umbridge is taken in the way he described a friendly sparring encounter. Maybe his experience with the WC player isn't an accurate translation into a real world fight, maybe the guy was being nice, maybe the guy was trying real hard; who knows? It's not inconceivable that SD can train someone like SW to be capable in a friendly sparring match against one of another style.

I guarantee this. If SW has his rear handed to him in this friendly match, there will be some who say (and many more who think but remain silent) that its another piece of proof on how shoddy SD is.

I may have put some of the things that SW said in a different way, but I give him credit for putting himself out there.

Bubba, it seems that you have some perspective--what can you tell us about your background (while preserving your anonymity of course). A little background information on your training always helps us understand your perspective.

[Lamassu]

From what I could tell after reading this whole thread, I'd say there always BEEN a complete lack of manners (at least directed towards SD). I've just assumed that's how things are run here on this forum. Smack talking K1/WWE style: "Let me tell you something BROTHER!!!" *arrrgghhh* *grrrrrrrrr* *snort* Me heep big martial artist, you wimpy SD student! :p

[Shaolin Wookie]

It's always seemed strange to me, that although MMA trolls like KF, etc., talk down on CMA, they've rarely talked down to me--SD or no SD. Sometimes, but not that much when I consider it truthfully. Oftentimes, it's b/c I do raise a stupid point. But CMA guys do it all the time (talk down to each other, that is, rather than debating issues and points/counterpoints....it's always "I have this many years under this teacher, in this style, and who are you? How long you train? 2 years? What a child......a mere kid......[Please.....leave your lineages and ages at the door.....we're all MA's, beginners and pros, and we're here to talk MA....not measure our dongs....)....and they love to back their semantic nitpicking up with quotes from online dictionaries!!! Oh, the horror!! The horror!!!:p Then they spout Wu De, and such, because they think that when you voice an opinion, it ought to be censored, and put up for censure.:rolleyes: b/c obviously a newb has no genuine insight.....he's an uneducated little ***** with a massive ego complex.....ah...who's being presumptious and egotistical? Guess we have differing opinions.....and I never was much for moral authority:p . **** the Man!

The MMA guys only care--put up or shut up. In MMA, a kid w/ 2 quality years can sometimes kick the living crap out of a twenty year keyboard vet.....not to mention in CMA....

Even skeptics (amongst whom I might count myself) like RD and Xia are usually willing to have a decent conversation, as peers, and they don't hold things over your head with a "holier than thou" mentality. They'll talk with you, form opinions, and live and learn, for the most part, and occasionally post random nonsense about scam artist chicks they meet on the net (RD, that is).

And if I crack a joke, they might laugh. It might be an racy joke........but we're not in church, man! And I don't think there are a bunch of little old ladies posting here! Weeeellll....that might be a stretch.

Not to mention this dude has about as many posts as he's taken to quibble over idle clishmaclaver like it's his MO........:rolleyes: .......and I'm his object of......well......obsession.....

10 posts, just for me? I'm blushing.......

Quote: "I've been lingering for some time"...........hahahahaha.........jeeez....I think I see him "lingering" outside my window right now......

Can anyone say troll?

[Flaca]

And if I crack a joke, they might laugh. It might be an racy joke........but we're not in church, man! And I don't think there are a bunch of little old ladies posting here! Weeeellll....that might be a stretch.


Just me. :)

[kwaichang]

I have posted a number of times most recently in a discussion with SM and he was somewhat disrespectful to those he "talks" with. Not just me I dont really care I just try to look at the source and go from there . However I have noticed a blanket disrespect over all , even though we can all learn from each other. It seems to me that the MMA / Cross trining MA groups are the worst. Why is that ??? Is it really only about fighting ?? Of course those who are into fighting slander those who want more from what they do. I was always taught to respect other MA no matter the rankl but to show respect to those above me in rank. I too have fallen into trhe disrespect trap with JP to name one and now we get along. I think haha. Well I think I have been called out by 2-3 guys on this forum not directly mind you but sort of. Well no big deal. Its only words. But I have to wonder what happened to those who feel like they are the know all and tell all to be such asses. well I awaiot your comments and , off the subject but SM you did not pm me as to who you might be are you afraid I might know you are since I too trained in Austin ???? KC
OOPs I meant Meats shake not Shake meat

[Shaolin Wookie]

Thought you might have been talking about me....hehehe.....:)

I think respect works two ways. I'm into respect by default, so long as it's mutual. If it's demanded, mutual respect is not there (it's more emollument, than anything)......and I'm the kind of guy that'll walk off and pretty much disregard anything that person has to say, b/c I lose interest due to the attitude. If I had walked into an SD school, and the master took one look at me, and said: "Give me respect, because I've earned it....." Well, he may have earned it from others, but certainly not by demanding it by rank, etc....and he wouldn't earn it from me by demanding it. My teacher treated me with respect in our first interaction. He has so ever since. I respect the hell out of him, because he even tolerates some of the more.......unorthodox amongst his students (thinking of a good word for myself....:D .....)

I tutored students in English during college. I never held my expertise over anyone's head. I recognized I had a service someone needed, and I respected them for coming to me for help in order to improve themselves. It wasn't---give me money, now bow before the superior might of this almighty intellect!!!! They paid me for their time. I'd like to think I paid them for their time (just with a different currency;) ). Something I think I needed drilled home by KC and JP when I ranted on the subject of GM The' a while back.

It's a mutual thing. Not, I don't respect you yet, but you should respect me now. More like.....I know something you might not, I'm sure you know something I don't, so let's share......

Always been my approach to this board....except where we're debating religion and UFO's, of course....:D

[NastyHaggis]

Somebody mentioned it being possible to get a black belt at a CSC center in 15 months. That seems really quick. I can't imagine it taking me personally (and that's just me) less than 3 years at our school (Mullins) to get to black sash. Mathematically it would be possible to do it in 2 1/2 years, but you'd have to really be training daily and really know your stuff. That's just me, I'm not saying it couldn't be done, it just seems really quick for a student to mature that quickly.

Even in ITA TaeKwonDo it takes a minimum of two years mathematically.

By the way, anyone coming to Golden Leopard 3 & 4 this weekend?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Somebody mentioned it being possible to get a black belt at a CSC center in 15 months. That seems really quick. I can't imagine it taking me personally (and that's just me) less than 3 years at our school (Mullins) to get to black sash. Mathematically it would be possible to do it in 2 1/2 years, but you'd have to really be training daily and really know your stuff. That's just me, I'm not saying it couldn't be done, it just seems really quick for a student to mature that quickly.


It depends on the level/frequency of practice. If I were to practice 4 times as much as the guy who does it in 3-4 years, with better focus, and greater intensity, more frequency, I do honestly believe I'd yield far better results. Seems common sense to me. It's body memory and body mechanics, general understanding, and everything else that goes into it----which is all centers on focus....which is reflected in the frequency of practice. The guy who does it lackadaisically in 3-4, or with "regular" committment in that time period........he'll have material for longer, so it may seem familiar, but he'll have diluted results, achieved with less intensity.

I'm not saying its the best thing to do, but I think it is.......I'm allowed to attend lower belt classes in addition to my brownbelt ones (for free). I do that combination generally 3 times a week (2, if I'm working more), combining the two (usually a 3 hour period of classtime, which is really friggin' cool:cool: lots of workout/forms/apps/basics/sparring/general horsing around when nobodys looking:o )....and I have access to it on two other days as well....though I use my Saturdays right now to do Longfist. Mix classtime with regular practice at home on days when i can't make it....(solo is just as important as classwork, I find).....and you can progress "faster" than "regular" students. Just like in college--I progressed faster by hitting the books harder, tacking down more outside resources, etc. You could say, "yeah, maybe you were just busier....it didn't mean you learned anything more, per say....".........but I find that this is often just a cop out for mediocre committment. An excuse tossed out derisively by people upset with the curve breaker (one of the many roles I played in college, when I wasn't pretending to be Superman:o :D ).


Lots of CMA guys say we learn to much in too little time. As a student/educator, I also think there's a danger in learning too little in too great a length of time.

In CMA, and on this board, people tend to take self-assurance and pride in one's achievements as something negative. But I ask--if you're not proud of what you're doing, why are you doing it?

If you have no pride, you have nothing. Why do Western virtues have to be so divorced from Eastern martial arts? Blend Eastern and Western mindsets, and I think you get a beautiful brainchild. Self assurance without self-righteous pomp.

[BoulderDawg]

Somebody mentioned it being possible to get a black belt at a CSC center in 15 months. That seems really quick.

It's extremely easy. Many people can get their brown belt in 3 months or less. Which in my opinion is not near enough time to learn the basics...but then what do I know. Then all of the brown belt long forms (I believe there are 15 total) are taught in a year(usually one, sometimes two forms a month).

As mentioned the premise being that you don't really become a student until you are a black belt.

[Shaolin Wookie]

It's extremely easy. Many people can get their brown belt in 3 months or less. Which in my opinion is not near enough time to learn the basics...but then what do I know. Then all of the brown belt long forms (I believe there are 15 total) are taught in a year(usually one, sometimes two forms a month).

As mentioned the premise being that you don't really become a student until you are a black belt.

3 months? If material is taught on schedule, and you test the minute you get your last bit.....I don't even think you could advance that quick, could you?

[BoulderDawg]

In our school there is no set schedule for lower belt material. Usually the master will just say "Break down into your learning groups". Then you are soon joined by a black belt who says "What do you guys need to work on".......:D

Let me just back up and say getting your 3rd brown is fairly difficult for someone who doesn't have access to a brown/black belt 24/7 (such as a spouse or parent). But it can be done and, to be honest, I've ever seen anyone fail a test. So, in theory, you could probably take a test every week and be a brown belt in a month.

[John Many Jars]

Belt levels below brown (CSC western states) basically test when they've memorized their material. So conceivably it could take as little as 4 days. I've never heard of this happening but it's possible. Once they're in brown then they follow a schedule of testing.

It took me about 17 months to get to black. Of course, it will have taken me 4 yrs., if I test next year or 5 if I hold off again, to go from 1st to 2nd.

*edit*

you beat me to it

[Meat Shake]

I have to admit....I know next-to-nothing about shuai chiao.......but if, say, I was a fool, and I decided not to check out D. Lin's shuai chiao school, would you pity me?

Actually I would...
Seriously... Please do yourself a favor and at least go sit in on one class.
You wont want to leave.
...
Unless it hurts more than youd like.
Fantastic stuff though.

[Judge Pen]

Somebody mentioned it being possible to get a black belt at a CSC center in 15 months. That seems really quick. I can't imagine it taking me personally (and that's just me) less than 3 years at our school (Mullins) to get to black sash. Mathematically it would be possible to do it in 2 1/2 years, but you'd have to really be training daily and really know your stuff. That's just me, I'm not saying it couldn't be done, it just seems really quick for a student to mature that quickly.

Even in ITA TaeKwonDo it takes a minimum of two years mathematically.

By the way, anyone coming to Golden Leopard 3 & 4 this weekend?

It took me just shy of three, but that was just being able to regurgitate the forms. I was probably in the system for 4 or 5 years before I felt comfortable "knowing" my lower rank material (not just being able to perform a form but apply the technique and undertand the different principles involved.)

I'll see you Saturday.

"It's extremely easy. Many people can get their brown belt in 3 months or less. Which in my opinion is not near enough time to learn the basics...but then what do I know. Then all of the brown belt long forms (I believe there are 15 total) are taught in a year(usually one, sometimes two forms a month)."

Maybe, but in my experience 3 months is probably too fast to get a yellow sash. That's only 10 short form (similar to abbreviated tam tui) and 10 sparring techniques (contrived drills used to aid one in applying short form in a sparring situation). In honesty it should be at least 6 months at that level, but, in a commercial setting, most people would burn out.

No disrespect to the CSC, but 15 months is way too fast imo.

JMJ, I waited 10 years to test to 2nd. :p I had all the material, but I took some time off in school and I wanted to really know the stuff [I]before[I] I tested again.

[ZhuFu]

In our school there is no set schedule for lower belt material. Usually the master will just say "Break down into your learning groups". Then you are soon joined by a black belt who says "What do you guys need to work on".......:D

Let me just back up and say getting your 3rd brown is fairly difficult for someone who doesn't have access to a brown/black belt 24/7 (such as a spouse or parent). But it can be done and, to be honest, I've ever seen anyone fail a test. So, in theory, you could probably take a test every week and be a brown belt in a month.

It's been more shocking than most realise:
There wasn't a set schedule there for black belts either at one time (although it was written on paper), it was all about who snuggled up. (Until the SDA masters complained), One associate master there went from 4th-5th black in 10 months.
The instructor in Vegas and the one in LA (current 5ths) didn't have their time in either, but they went to all the GMT seminars which gave them their ticket.

[Baqualin]

Hey JP & KC
How are the babies doing.....KC you never posted a picture?

KC & 9th Drunk do you all know your schedule for Meteor Fist yet....lets get together at least one night:D
BQ

[kungfujunky]

hey bq we should chat again soon!

as for the csc testing. i agree it seems fast. and you can tell in the way some people do their stuff.

but i HAVE seen people not pass. on more than one occasion. so dont take boulderdawgs assumption that you can test just to test.

also to note. in sd currently you have more forms on your curriculum per belt level. csc is adjusting their curriculum to match but it will probably take a couple years to get there.

and also. gmt signed off on csc's way of doing things. so why have issue with it? the grandmaster ok'ed it.

honestly i dont look at rank. if a person can handle themselves in sparring with respect and skill then they have taken the time to learn what they have been taught. if they cant then they have missed some things along the way.

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=Shaolin Wookie;742387]It depends on the level/frequency of practice. If I were to practice 4 times as much as the guy who does it in 3-4 years, with better focus, and greater intensity, more frequency, I do honestly believe I'd yield far better results. Seems common sense to me. It's body memory and body mechanics, general understanding, and everything else that goes into it----which is all centers on focus....which is reflected in the frequency of practice. The guy who does it lackadaisically in 3-4, or with "regular" committment in that time period........he'll have material for longer, so it may seem familiar, but he'll have diluted results, achieved with less intensity.

Doesn't make you ready to receive a blk. belt in 15 mo.'s, only makes you really good when it is time to test for it.:)

[Leto]

3 months? If material is taught on schedule, and you test the minute you get your last bit.....I don't even think you could advance that quick, could you?

I was in the CSC system. I started in mid January and was ready to test to 3rd brown by the end of March. I had to wait until April when the Soards came down for their yearly visit, though. It was actually nice to spend a little time just reviewing. (no one forced me to test on this schedule, but I was hungry for as much new material as I could process at that time.). To be fair, I had around ten years of experience in martial arts before I started, so maybe that made it easier to memorize stuff. However, five years later I am just starting to look back and reinterpret the lower belt and brown belt forms, and really investigate their uses. I got to a point where I felt like I had enough material for a long while, and decided to become a perverbial mountain hermit, to refine myself and my art. Someday soon I might come down from the mountain and see how things look again.

In the CSC, at least when I was there a few years ago, it was very possible to get to brown in three months, or less. You'd need to attend every class and be shown something new every class, and memorize everything pretty much the first time it was shown to you.

[MasterKiller]

How many ranks are we talking here?

White to Yellow
Yellow to Blue
Blue to Green
Green to Brown

?

You mean to say you guys are racking up 4 ranks in 3 months???!?

And that includes


Short Kata 1-30
One Step Sparring 1-9
Bo Techniques (4 spins)
Hand to Hand Techniques
Numchaku Techniques 1-12
4-8 Bo
Sparring Techniques 1-20
Big Bird Spreads its Wings
Fist of the Lo Han
Short Stick of the Northern Beggar
Four Door Way Break
Flying Tiger Came Out of the Cave


5 long forms, plus a sh1t load of smaller forms...in 3 months?

[Baqualin]

How many ranks are we talking here?

White to Yellow
Yellow to Blue
Blue to Green
Green to Brown

?

You mean to say you guys are racking up 4 ranks in 3 months???!?

And that includes


Short Kata 1-30
One Step Sparring 1-9
Bo Techniques (4 spins)
Hand to Hand Techniques
Numchaku Techniques 1-12
4-8 Bo
Sparring Techniques 1-20
Big Bird Spreads its Wings
Fist of the Lo Han
Short Stick of the Northern Beggar
Four Door Way Break
Flying Tiger Came Out of the Cave


5 long forms, plus a sh1t load of smaller forms...in 3 months?

MK Hopefully their talking about going from green to 3 brown:confused:

[Judge Pen]

How many ranks are we talking here?

White to Yellow
Yellow to Blue
Blue to Green
Green to Brown

?

You mean to say you guys are racking up 4 ranks in 3 months???!?

And that includes


Short Kata 1-30
One Step Sparring 1-9
Bo Techniques (4 spins)
Hand to Hand Techniques
Numchaku Techniques 1-12
4-8 Bo
Sparring Techniques 1-20
Big Bird Spreads its Wings
Fist of the Lo Han
Short Stick of the Northern Beggar
Four Door Way Break
Flying Tiger Came Out of the Cave


5 long forms, plus a sh1t load of smaller forms...in 3 months?

If that's what they are saying, then it is waaaaay tooooo fast in my humble opinion. Even if you could remember it the "first time" you were shown, you need to let this stuff settle in and work only on that material for an extended period of time to really get a feel for it. This is crock pot cooking, not frying! If this is true, then I think this is one of the reasons our stuff is criticized and why it looks like ass on the internet!

[Leto]

MK, yes, all that stuff in 3 months. from white to brown. The test is only based on memorization of material, and even then they give help sometimes. Another reason I decided to take a break from it. While I had everything memorized and could perform it quite well, there was very little drilling of applications from the form, or "breaking it down". Knowing how to use the material is not a part of any test. And I saw too many people test who barely had it memorized, couldn't perform the techniques properly, and still pass. The only way to fail a test was to refuse to even try to do the techniques. Too many brown belts barely knew their material, and were relearning the short forms during the warm up of brown belt class. Too many black belts barely remember their brown belt forms, and forget things. It's sad when the brown belts who just learned their form are showing a black belt how to do it because he forgot, and hasn't practiced it in a year (I've seen this happen more than once). I know all this doesn't sound good, and I'm not trying to make people think that there's no merit to the material or the system, because there is. Every school is run a little differently, it's really a "get out of it what you put into it" thing. I put in effort almost every waking moment to working on my material, in one form or another, for about three years (That's not an exaggeration). I now have a base of material which has great depth of application, which I have been discovering more being on my own than I had the opportunity to being at the school where things had to be conducted in a certain way. It seems kind of sad, but even this type of school has its purpose for some people. It's sort of like a library. If you don't know how to read yet, a library doesn't do you much good, because you can really only appreciate the pictures in the books. But when you know how to read, and are already a student of learning, the library is an amazing place where you can find out about almost anything you want. You need a method to help you understand how to apply the knowledge in all those books, the library itself can't do that.
From my experience, CSC doesn't have that method, you'd need to pick it up somewhere else. maybe it gets introduced after many years of staying there...like only the trusted disciples who have proved themselves loyal get initiated into the "real" learning...but in my opinion that should be the foundation for everyone, not the "advanced" material for private classes. But I am thankful that I was able to see so many different forms and styles in my short time there.

[Leto]

It's amazing you guys had no idea that this is how it was. SD in the east must be very different. In my original style, there would be mandatory six months in between testing (there weren't quite as many ranks, but still, it took at least four or five years to get to first black...and some people consider that way too fast!) It means more when you've put more time into it. Sometimes this sort of system feels like it's holding you back, when you feel you have learned your stuff and can do it in your sleep, and want to learn something new. I think a balance is needed...not to hold someone back who has the ability to move on, but not to allow someone to pass by who doesn't have a firm grasp of the material. Really, I wish we could do away with the whole "rank" thing, and teach based on individual needs and abilities. Of course, this is hard to do with a large group of students at once.

[brucereiter]

How many ranks are we talking here?

White to Yellow
Yellow to Blue
Blue to Green
Green to Brown

?

You mean to say you guys are racking up 4 ranks in 3 months???!?

And that includes


Short Kata 1-30
One Step Sparring 1-9
Bo Techniques (4 spins)
Hand to Hand Techniques
Numchaku Techniques 1-12
4-8 Bo
Sparring Techniques 1-20
Big Bird Spreads its Wings
Fist of the Lo Han
Short Stick of the Northern Beggar
Four Door Way Break
Flying Tiger Came Out of the Cave


5 long forms, plus a sh1t load of smaller forms...in 3 months?

i dont know about the "external" program but below is the atl internal program.

Level One: Requirement
Yang 64 Tai Chi Chuan
49 Postures-I Chin Ching
Gold Sash Two Sections of Yang 64
Blue Sash Four Sections of Yang 64
Green Sash Entire Yang 64 Form

Level Two: 1st, 2nd, 3rd Brown to 1st Black Sash Time Line / Requirement
Classical Pa Kua Chang (Sections 1-4) 3 Months
Classical Pa Kua Chang (Sections 5-8) 4 Months
Chen 18 Move Modified Form 2 Months
Ho Tien Chi Breathing 2 Months
Yin Dagger 2 Months
Yang Dagger 2 Months
Yeh Fay Spa Kwan 2 Months


all of the above material is needed to test for 1st Black Sash in the ga csc.
it takes a minimum of 23 months. most people take 2 1/2 - 3 years to first black.

Level Three: 1 Black to 2 Black Sash Time Line
Hsing-I Five Roads 2 Months
Hsing-I Linkage Form 2 Months
Tai Chi 64 Appl & Push Hands – 1/2 1 Month
Five Animal Dead Training 3 Months
Hsing-I Animals 1-6 2 Months
Five Animal Live Training 3 Months
Hsing-I Animals 7-12 2 Months
Tai Chi 64 Appl & Push Hands (2/2) 1 Month
Tai Chi Sword 18 move Form 2 Months
Tai Chi 24 Combination Form 3 Months

it take a minimum of 22 months from first to 2nd black sash.

(i reached 2nd degree black sash rank
earned after several year of practice
(aproximately 4000 hours between
aug 8, 1997 and september 9 2005, about 8 years at a minimum of 500 hours per year)

i might test for 3rd black in september 07 as a now have all of the material ... :-)

the key is a organized practice schedule :-)
internal arts practice schedule 2007 each day is a minimum of 1 hour and often 4 hours, not including time in class ...

Mon
I chin ching #1-12
yang 64 tai chi chuan
24 tai chi chuan
chen 83 tai chi chuan xin jia
yang 38 broad sword
pakua original + 8 animal

Tue
I chin ching #13-18
yang 64 tai chi chuan
chen 18
chen 83 tai chi chuan xin jia
chen tai chi 32 straight sword
hsing-I 5 roads/linkage/12 animals

Wed
I chin ching #19-27
yang 64 tai chi chuan
5 animal dead/live
chen 83 tai chi chuan xin jia
18 sword
pakua original + 8 animal

Thu
I chin ching #28-33
yang 64 tai chi chuan
yueh fei spa kwan
chen 83 tai chi chuan xin jia
chen iron fan
hsing-I 5 roads/linkage/12 animals

Fri
I chin ching #34-41
yang 64 tai chi chuan
ho tien chi breathing
chen 83 tai chi chuan xin jia
yin yang dagger
pakua original + 8 animal

Sat
I chin ching #42-49
yang 64 tai chi chuan
yang 38 broad sword
chen 83 tai chi chuan xin jia
yueh fei spa kwan
hsing-I 5 roads/linkage/12 animals
ho tien chi breathing/shein tien chi

best,

bruce

[KungFu Student]

I agree. Three months is entirely too short of a time for someone to understand all that material. It has taken me over a year to get to third brown, and that is going to class 5 to 6 days a week, and practicing at home. We have a minimum of three months between belt tests from white to brown, then six months for 3rd-1st brown, and 2 years up at black. They have in the past reduced the time somewhat, but in unusual situations. It is sad to think that they place more importance on the color of their belt then the quality of their skill. But I am sure that the CSC does not corner the market on this practice.

[ZhuFu]

If this is true, then I think this is one of the reasons our stuff is criticized and why it looks like ass on the internet!

It all boils down to people. There are lots of instructors and since they are all human as well, they are subject to different standards than others, as well as to all the other problems humans have. A question comes to mind, which SD student would be well to represent the art? Or how about which instructor?
I have seen tests where the entire panel did not pass the student, and the head master on the test passed them any way to the shock of the panel. When I asked, they told me "He should know he did poorly and he will most likely quit anyway".. From my perception of the csc-west is that test fee's outweigh what it done on a test in many cases; however this is not all the csc's, its really dependent on what instructor you talk too.
I heard a rumor once that a person went from White to 3rd Brown in 3 weeks in Denver. But since it was a rumor I take it with a grain of salt as they say.
When this kind of stuff is said it makes the entire art look bad, personally I think that its really down to the individual instructors more than the art in how it is represented

[BM2]

I actually laughed when I read how fast you could get your brown belt. I think about 3 months is quick enough for your first belt.
What others do does not effect me in the least. Also we may take ourselves too seriously at times. It seems to be more important how many stripes or diamonds we have on our belts and the attention from others that it receives that is important.
I saw my bjj instructor cry when he got his black belt. I wonder if any 15 month bb cried when he received his bb but he had about ten years in it too.
It took me a little over three years to get my SD bb and that was when there were only the Golden Tiger, sai and sword for each degree of brown. My instructor just thought it wasn't right to have a bb before at least three years.

[NastyHaggis]

Testing fees...yikes. When I managed a TaeKwonDo school back in the day we had to do that to keep the doors open. However, one of the reasons I quit was because I saw WAY too many people testing when they shouldn't have, and were still passed. There was just too much dependence on the money coming in from testings, and the owner/instructors weren't being greedy, they literally needed that money to keep the doors open.

Thankfully, we don't have testing fees at our school, and I really think that takes the emphasis off of the whole "hurry up and test" thing.

On a side note, after 8 years of marriage, our first baby is due on the 28th! Yippee! I guess I'll be doing tai chi with the child in one of those little backpack baby carriers. It'll make me go REALLY slow.

[BoulderDawg]

Testing fees are a big problem. I don't believe there should be a fee to test. This would alleviate pressure on everyone.

Also one thing that bothered me as a lower belt was the constant pressure by one of the Masters to test:

"Why haven't you tested yet?'

"We need to sign you up for testing?"

Here's the clipboard put your name on it".........

They know as well as I that a large percentage of students drop out after several months. This pressure gives the apperance they are trying to squeeze every penny out of you before you quit.

[kwaichang]

Hey Nasty, when I was in Austin I taught the Mantis class with my son strapped to my chest , he loved it he is 2 now and knows his snake, Leopard and Mantis hand positions along with dragon fist and Tiger Hand. It is great you will love it. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

MK, yes, all that stuff in 3 months. from white to brown. The test is only based on memorization of material, and even then they give help sometimes. Another reason I decided to take a break from it. While I had everything memorized and could perform it quite well, there was very little drilling of applications from the form, or "breaking it down".

Had that same issue, but I found people in the school and school system who had the drive that I did, and have greatly benefited from this. SDiscool and Crushingfist---you'll see me turn up intermittently....as my schedule has mellowed out into something that approaches "sanity".:D


Knowing how to use the material is not a part of any test.

Ah, but it is a test of yourself and your dedication. If you're willing to look and pose the questions, there are answers. I've seen this happen firsthand of late. Pickin' up apps left and right, and "discovering" (they're already there) new ones.....:D I just had to ask the right people....i.e. the people in it for the same reasons I am. I can't ask a student in it for PT the apps for every form. He or she might never have cared to learn and retain that information. Obviously, I just have to ask the right people. The people I look at and say.......****.....that dude's on another level. That's where I want to get to. Sure enough, those are the guys that clean up in sparring.

It's sort of like a library. If you don't know how to read yet, a library doesn't do you much good, because you can really only appreciate the pictures in the books. But when you know how to read, and are already a student of learning, the library is an amazing place where you can find out about almost anything you want. You need a method to help you understand how to apply the knowledge in all those books, the library itself can't do that.

This is the best metaphor for SD training that I have ever come across. Again, not the best way to train all students, but the best way for the right kinds of students.

From my experience, CSC doesn't have that method, you'd need to pick it up somewhere else.

Thought so too, recently. Finding out I was wrong. I've learned that I just have to ask more questions.;) I think for a while I was a little embarassed to ask questions, b/c I didn't want to make it look like the teacher glossed something over that was really important. But if they do, you just have to question step-by-step, and the answer will be there. In short, you have to be a bit of a pest.....hey, can you show me this? Hey, what about that? Are we there yet?

Still, it does do a world of good to look around a bit.....at least, it did for me.



Cool, man. Where'd you train, BTW?

[Shaolin Wookie]

But I am sure that the CSC does not corner the market on this practice.

I can tell you firsthand, from my recent travels, that I know this to be true. You'd be surprised how many "traditional schools" corner that market.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I saw my bjj instructor cry when he got his black belt. I wonder if any 15 month bb cried when he received his bb but he had about ten years in it too.
.

That's because there's no crying in kung fu........:cool: :D

[Shaolin Wookie]

Testing fees are a big problem. I don't believe there should be a fee to test. This would alleviate pressure on everyone.

Also one thing that bothered me as a lower belt was the constant pressure by one of the Masters to test:

"Why haven't you tested yet?'

"We need to sign you up for testing?"

Here's the clipboard put your name on it".........

They know as well as I that a large percentage of students drop out after several months. This pressure gives the apperance they are trying to squeeze every penny out of you before you quit.


Wow, I've never really seen that kind of pressure. There is a peer pressure....though.....kind of like---hey man, you're good enough to jump up to the next level.....why you wanna review for that long? From non-instructors, that is. Some instructors take pride in their students, which is a good thing. It might sway their judgment, though, to push them towards advancement. Although I loathe the testing fees as well, as I'm not rich, I've never once gotten the impression that I'm being screwed over by the business side of MA....although i did get that from the BJJ school I attended (still getting calls from them every three days, despite the fact I keep telling them I'm not interested......what's with that?), and the WC school. The others were really laid back---they put out their wares, said: "Look around, see if this is a place for you. If not, good luck." When I signed up with CSC, that's the pitch I got. They took pride in what they did on a daily basis, put it out for public review, and basically left the decision up to you without sales pitches every class session.

But since I'm not 13, peer pressure means **** to me.:D I feel I'm making significant progress in my studies right now, after this long period of stasis that put me into a funk. I'm really learning how to move in my forms, and put 'em to work. If you've ever gotten that feeling, you might know what I'm talking about.:cool:

[brucereiter]

In short, you have to be a bit of a pest.....hey, can you show me this? Hey, what about that? Are we there yet?

true true! sr master gary makes fun of me because i ask and have always asked a lot of questions lol but after a while i think he thought it was good because he can see improvement in my skills and i have learned to ask questions based on where i am at in my training. "ask a big question, get a big answer" :-)

one thing to remember when asking questions is to ask questions related to what you are already at in your training ...

best,

bruce

[B-Rad]

What do you guys think of the belt system? Do you find it a pain, or do you feel it helps your training in any way? Or do you just not care one way or the other? :p

[brucereiter]

What do you guys think of the belt system? Do you find it a pain, or do you feel it helps your training in any way? Or do you just not care one way or the other? :p

hi b-rad,

i think the rank system is good, but just because you have attained a certain rank does not mean you have skill beyond a basic memory of how to perform the material. i think it is important for each student to find which part of the system they want to become an expert in and focus on that while still "rounding" out your martial education by learning all the system has to offer.
i dont think it helps or hurts ... i look at rank as a organizational tool.

how do you feel about belt ranking systems b-rad?

best,

bruce

[Leto]

The rank system is a good logical idea for a large group of students studying an ordered curriculum. It's just a way to tell where everyone is at in their studies. Businesses have made it into a way to get extra cash, and for people who know nothing about martial arts, it's become the focus, unfortunately.
It really has nothing to do with training. You can train just as hard without anyone telling you you are a black belt, or any other color. I find it difficult to talk about this to people who don't know anything about martial arts, so I avoid it. I hate when I am asked "what belt" I have, so in that respect I wish such a system had never been invented so people wouldn't keep asking such inane questions. *lol*

When I am teaching, I will not have any ranks, as I find they are just a distraction from what's real. But I don't plan on trying to run a strip-mall martial arts business, either. More like a mountain/forest retreat. You can pay for your training with labor in the garden, chopping wood, and carrying water. ;)

[MasterKiller]

OK...JP...KC...MK...WS here's something new to look at.:cool:

Paste this link in your browser:eek:

www.quasi-modo.net/Li_Po_Sui.html

Have Fun
BQ

Willowsword posted this a year or so ago. It is my contention, based on these photos, that this is the same guy as the guy in the Su Kong pictures. I think some other SD folks agreed.

[Baqualin]

Willowsword posted this a year or so ago. It is my contention, based on these photos, that this is the same guy as the guy in the Su Kong pictures. I think some other SD folks agreed.

Not me and Su Kong passed on in 1922....makes no sense to use this guy, he has to much publicity surrounding him......... GMS is smarter than that...that I know! Anyway the answer is in the link...someone who cares just needs to contact the Archeologist listed.
BQ

[MasterKiller]

Not me and Su Kong passed on in 1922 Where is his tombstone?

[Judge Pen]

Willowsword posted this a year or so ago. It is my contention, based on these photos, that this is the same guy as the guy in the Su Kong pictures. I think some other SD folks agreed.

Actually I posted that link since I found it looking for outside verification of Su Kong. I gotta say that the two look similar, but I suppose you can argue that all Chinese men covered with hair look alike to me! :p

[BoulderDawg]

I believe the man is more legend than real. There is a story in the manual:

According to the story Su walked into a room that held 12 people with an assassin hidden in the rafters. He then threw a knife up into the rafters killing the assassin.

He later explained that he heard 13 people breathing instead of 12..........:rolleyes:

Sorry but I'm calling BS on this. However I would love anyone in the martial arts to prove me wrong!:)

[kwaichang]

BD a mans capabilities are only limited by his own desire. Most people are told by society and others from the time of their birth that they cant do something but many can . It is the negative pessimism and thoughts that limit us all from fulfilling our true potential as humans. EX: you cant or this other guy is gifted so you cant etc. I say BULL SH// and a human can accomplish many feats thought by most to be impossible. KC

[Lamassu]

yeah, like breaking iron bars off your noggin'. :p Though I'm sure there's a rational scientific explanation for that, like banging metal against your head doesn't hurt or something. :rolleyes:

[godzillakungfu]

Somebody mentioned it being possible to get a black belt at a CSC center in 15 months. That seems really quick. I can't imagine it taking me personally (and that's just me) less than 3 years at our school (Mullins) to get to black sash. Mathematically it would be possible to do it in 2 1/2 years, but you'd have to really be training daily and really know your stuff. That's just me, I'm not saying it couldn't be done, it just seems really quick for a student to mature that quickly.

Even in ITA TaeKwonDo it takes a minimum of two years mathematically.

By the way, anyone coming to Golden Leopard 3 & 4 this weekend?Yes, it has happened on quite a few occasions in recent years.

I've also seen people fail although it is rare. As of 2005 anyways.

[BoulderDawg]

BD a mans capabilities are only limited by his own desire. Most people are told by society and others from the time of their birth that they cant do something but many can . It is the negative pessimism and thoughts that limit us all from fulfilling our true potential as humans. EX: you cant or this other guy is gifted so you cant etc. I say BULL SH// and a human can accomplish many feats thought by most to be impossible. KC


There come a time when the human will is not enough. For example there is not a human being alive (nor will there be any modern human) that can run a two minute mile...no matter how much you may want it.

This falls into that catergory. The claim is so outlandish as to be laughable. That is unless you know someone who can actually repeat this.

[ZhuFu]

OK...JP...KC...MK...WS here's something new to look at.:cool:

Paste this link in your browser:eek:

www.quasi-modo.net/Li_Po_Sui.html

Have Fun
BQ

Thanks for this!! I took all of these picts as well as all the other Su Kong picts and put them on photobucket so you could see both Li Po Sui and Su Kong Tai Djin together. Its a difficult call see what you think:
http://s164.photobucket.com/albums/u5/zhufu/

[kwaichang]

Lamassu to quote" that is why you fail". It is this attitude exactly that causes failure. Do you think a man can lift 1000 pounds if need be ??? KC

[BoulderDawg]

Lamassu to quote" that is why you fail". It is this attitude exactly that causes failure. Do you think a man can lift 1000 pounds if need be ??? KC

Of course certain men can lift a 1,000 pounds. That is actually within the capacity of men to do.

However there is no one alive that can lift 10,000 pounds. Just like there is no one that could ever distinguish between 12 people breathing and 13 people breathing.

Are you saying they are people who can run a two minute mile, lift 10,000 pounds or maybe jump 50 feet in the air?

[kwaichang]

i AM SAYING THAT IF YOU SET LIMITATIONS BASED UPON THE NORM THEN YOU WILL not accomplish any thing worth while. Can a man lift 10000 lbs I dont know a woman has been known to lift a Car or 4000 pounds off a baby. I feel we limit ourselves due to our own negativity which you through logic seem to portray. Can a man / woman run a 3 minute mile or 4 minute mile or 100 meters in 9 seconds. 50 years ago the answer was the same as you have said "Its impossible" and so it is. But the 4 minute miles has been broken and maybe soon the 2 minute mile. as long as people dont get to that guy and brainwash him into thinking he cant. KC

[NastyHaggis]

In reference to the Photobucket pictures:

Was that Tang Soo Do tablet at the Shaolin Temple? If so, what was it doing there? I know Tang Soo Do means something like "Way of the China Hand" or something similar, but I thought most Korean stylists considered that a purely Korean art.

When I was in TaeKwonDo, we got a lot of Tang Soo Do people in our school, and one of my first instructors was a black belt in TSD and not TKD. They never referenced ANYTHING Chinese about that art. In fact, they talked about how Traditionally Korean it was.

If that wasn't a picture from China, then ignore what I just asked.

[BoulderDawg]

i AM SAYING THAT IF YOU SET LIMITATIONS BASED UPON THE NORM THEN YOU WILL not accomplish any thing worth while. Can a man lift 10000 lbs I dont know a woman has been known to lift a Car or 4000 pounds off a baby. I feel we limit ourselves due to our own negativity which you through logic seem to portray. Can a man / woman run a 3 minute mile or 4 minute mile or 100 meters in 9 seconds. 50 years ago the answer was the same as you have said "Its impossible" and so it is. But the 4 minute miles has been broken and maybe soon the 2 minute mile. as long as people dont get to that guy and brainwash him into thinking he cant. KC

So let's get down to it.

You believe that there was once a man that could go into a crowded room and actually tell you how many people are in that room by counting the people breathing?

If so, how did this man gain this skill?

[kwaichang]

There is a stry I heard once about a blind man who could tell you how many people were in a room and he could also walk by a number of them and let them tell him their name and then go into the other room and let the people walk into the room and he could tell them who they were. BTW the people did not say anything. I believe wuth training one can have enough sensitivity that they can detect , PARDON THE PUN" a disturbance of the vibrations of the room. we all have electromagnetic or should I say biomagnetic waves we are all different then whynot 13 instead of 12. Havent you ever had a feeling and it end up being true ?? KC

[BoulderDawg]

There is a stry I heard once about a blind man who could tell you how many people were in a room and he could also walk by a number of them and let them tell him their name and then go into the other room and let the people walk into the room and he could tell them who they were. BTW the people did not say anything. I believe wuth training one can have enough sensitivity that they can detect , PARDON THE PUN" a disturbance of the vibrations of the room. we all have electromagnetic or should I say biomagnetic waves we are all different then whynot 13 instead of 12. Havent you ever had a feeling and it end up being true ?? KC


That doesn't answer the question.

The question was: Do you believe there was a man who could tell how many people are in a room by counting how many is breathing?

I'll answer that with a direct "No".

[ZhuFu]

In reference to the Photobucket pictures:

Was that Tang Soo Do tablet at the Shaolin Temple? If so, what was it doing there? I know Tang Soo Do means something like "Way of the China Hand" or something similar, but I thought most Korean stylists considered that a purely Korean art.

When I was in TaeKwonDo, we got a lot of Tang Soo Do people in our school, and one of my first instructors was a black belt in TSD and not TKD. They never referenced ANYTHING Chinese about that art. In fact, they talked about how Traditionally Korean it was.

If that wasn't a picture from China, then ignore what I just asked.

The masters at the csc denver school made this claim for many years in regards to the stone tablets that they/GMT claimed they have been honored by at the Hunan Temple in China:
"He is the only person in 1500 years to be honored with a monument at the Hunan Shao-lin Temple". The problem was is that this Tang So Do tablet was there first, as well as quite a few other schools. A donation was paid to the temple in order to have a tablet. This picture was taken in China, at the Hunan Shao-lin Temple in 1989 which was prior to their (csc) tablet being placed. They still maintain that they were "invited to have a tablet" and then "honored" with one, with no mention of the donation made.
(I would guess like a public TV station inviting you to make a donation, and then honoring you by sending a t-shirt after you send your money in), my attemp of synical humor, not meant to offend anyone..

[kungfujunky]

yes i believe a person could and can tell the difference between 12 and 13 people breathing.

sensitivity training and sensory deprivation training make this skill attainable

it is no different than a blind person being able to navigate a room they have never been in before purely by their senses.

[BoulderDawg]

It makes for a good fairy tale but in all honesty it can't be done.

To prove me wrong I wouldn't mind hearing about someone who can do this now.

[tattooedmonk]

Not me and Su Kong passed on in 1922....makes no sense to use this guy, he has to much publicity surrounding him......... GMS is smarter than that...that I know! Anyway the answer is in the link...someone who cares just needs to contact the Archeologist listed.
BQwho's to say that Master Sin started it . Maybe Ie Chang Ming did. I have to admit that these look like the same person. Remember these people and this person were around long before all of us.

I am not saying it is not Su Kong but...it looks like it is the same person. The picture of Su kong is from when?? this other picture is from what 1921 and Su Kong died in 1922?? Very strange to say the least.

[tattooedmonk]

Whether the story of Su Kong is legend or not ,( who ****ing cares anyway? it could have been a story just to entertain a young student). The hearing of 13 breaths instead of 12 is possible.

Was is not in Empire Strikes Back where Luke is training with Yoda and Yoda raise the x wing fighter out of the swamp and Luke says something like "I do not believe it." and yoda says something like" this is why you fail."

it is because of the doubt and question in our minds and hearts that we can not achieve these types of things.

[tattooedmonk]

I believe for anyone to have a strong foundation in the art they need to spend 6months at each belt level up to brown , 2 years for brownbelt levels ,total 4years period. The Cr@p I have seen coming out of the schools is rediculous.

[BoulderDawg]

Whether the story of Su Kong is legend or not ,( who ****ing cares anyway? it could have been a story just to entertain a young student). The hearing of 13 breaths instead of 12 is possible.

Was is not in Empire Strikes Back where Luke is training with Yoda and Yoda raise the x wing fighter out of the swamp and Luke says something like "I do not believe it." and yoda says something like" this is why you fail."

it is because of the doubt and question in our minds and hearts that we can not achieve these types of things.


Well what can I say, many people believe in Sasquatch and Aliens too.

All that said I would like to see a demostration in a controlled environment. I would also bet any amount of money that I have that this is impossible.

[kwaichang]

Well BD you must be from Missouri haha, YES I BELIEVE IT, I have seen some phenominal unexplainable things and I believe with the right training it can be done. KC
PS if you only believe what you can see or is Logically proven then you must have little faith Grasshopper

[Shaolin Wookie]

Of course certain men can lift a 1,000 pounds. That is actually within the capacity of men to do.

However there is no one alive that can lift 10,000 pounds. Just like there is no one that could ever distinguish between 12 people breathing and 13 people breathing.

Are you saying they are people who can run a two minute mile, lift 10,000 pounds or maybe jump 50 feet in the air?

No, but as Gene has submitted to public review many times, there's a guy that can pull a friggin' airplane with his dong. Last I heard, he was trying to get his hands on a 747 for a record pull.

[Shaolin Wookie]

It makes for a good fairy tale but in all honesty it can't be done.

To prove me wrong I wouldn't mind hearing about someone who can do this now.

Interestingly enough, I've seen several TV specials about how blind people cope with blindness. There's a group in NYC that has come up with a veeeery interesting method to navigating the city.

They basically emulate sonar. They walk around the city with little "clickers" that make a click. Based on how the click sounds, they can tell where things are in relation to themselves with remarkable accuracy. They react to the reverberations of sound waves. I was astounded by this feat. Apparently, there's quite a few people that can do this--none of them superheroes, and little more than ordinary blind folk. All it took was very specific focus on a desired result. (Hahaha......that last sentence is like the usual translation of "kung-fu"):cool: .

The reason I bring this up, is that their "sixth sense" sensory perception is directly related to their survival. If they take one step too many at an intersection---could be lights out forever.....in a manner of speaking. (OK, that's a bad joke, I admit it).

If Liu Fu Tao has a kernel of truth to it, I'm sure it's just capitalizing on the same sensory tuning these blind people have capitalized on.

If I can find a link, I'll edit this post and post it below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpBm4KoWsrY

Okay....there's the link. I'm at work, and I can't access Youtube's vids, so I can't verify that this is a good link, or even on target, but by the description, it sounds like it's valid. Basically, this is a guy named Underwood (last name) who was featured in People magazine for using "Echol"---their sonar emulation technique.

Once again, Shaolin Wookie dropkicks the abstruse into a low earth orbit. Thank you all. You're much too kind.....please don't bow....

[Shaolin Wookie]

Whether the story of Su Kong is legend or not ,( who ****ing cares anyway? it could have been a story just to entertain a young student). The hearing of 13 breaths instead of 12 is possible.

Was is not in Empire Strikes Back where Luke is training with Yoda and Yoda raise the x wing fighter out of the swamp and Luke says something like "I do not believe it." and yoda says something like" this is why you fail."

it is because of the doubt and question in our minds and hearts that we can not achieve these types of things.

Do you know what my first reaction to the Su Kong story was?

I was entertained. It made for a good story.

Does it have to be true? Well, does the Triad story have to be true for other lineages? Does CLF's history have to be true?

Nope. It just has to gel with the Martial Art's students, and give them a model to work after---hence, a master with unbelievable skill, achieved with what? Kung-fu....hard work. Note--nobody ever became a better martial artist by believing in a story. But it might have entertained him for a good 15 minutes.

I'm starting to think a little like Gene regarding the SD lineage. I think the hairy monk tale is one of the best stories it has, to be honest. Does it have to be true? Nope.

Who knows, maybe Su Kong stumbled, or a drop of water fell from the ceiling, and he looked up for a second and saw the guy, then started screaming: "Ahhhhhhhh!" And then threw a knife at the guy. Or maybe the guy cut the cheese, thereby revealing his position.

Only a putz takes legend as fact. Here's a good, relevant example: At the battle of Thermopylae, who actually believes 300 Spartans took on several million Persians?

Answer: very few......there were probably a couple hundred thousand Spartans in the least.....but it makes for a really cool story, doesn't it?

**If I recall correctly, I believe someone much wiser than myself mentioned this when he talked with me regarding SD's history.....(so I don't think that's an original Wookie comparison).**

[Baqualin]

Do you know what my first reaction to the Su Kong story was?

I was entertained. It made for a good story.

Does it have to be true? Well, does the Triad story have to be true for other lineages? Does CLF's history have to be true?

Nope. It just has to gel with the Martial Art's students, and give them a model to work after---hence, a master with unbelievable skill, achieved with what? Kung-fu....hard work. Note--nobody ever became a better martial artist by believing in a story. But it might have entertained him for a good 15 minutes.

I'm starting to think a little like Gene regarding the SD lineage. I think the hairy monk tale is one of the best stories it has, to be honest. Does it have to be true? Nope.

Who knows, maybe Su Kong stumbled, or a drop of water fell from the ceiling, and he looked up for a second and saw the guy, then started screaming: "Ahhhhhhhh!" And then threw a knife at the guy. Or maybe the guy cut the cheese, thereby revealing his position.

Only a putz takes legend as fact. Here's a good, relevant example: At the battle of Thermopylae, who actually believes 300 Spartans took on several million Persians?

Answer: very few......there were probably a couple hundred thousand Spartans in the least.....but it makes for a really cool story, doesn't it?

**If I recall correctly, I believe someone much wiser than myself mentioned this when he talked with me regarding SD's history.....(so I don't think that's an original Wookie comparison).**

NICE;)
BQ

[kwaichang]

Greeks Fight the Immortals:
On the third day, Leonidas led his 300 Spartan hoplites (elite troops selected because they had living sons back home) plus the allied Thespians and Thebans against Xerxes and his army of "10,000 Immortals." The Spartan-led forces fought this unstoppable Persian force to their deaths in order to block the pass long enough to keep Xerxes and his army occupied while the rest of the Greek army escaped.

Here you BTW there were 700 volunteers. So yes i do believe KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Are you quoting Herodotus on that? From what I remember, he had much larger figures......

The moral of the story is this: With superior ground and tactical position, a smaller force can fend off a larger one, if they have the courage to stand and fight.

Plus, it was good PR for the oft-scorned Spartans.....

Herodotus himself (The Father of History) once said something to the gist of: "I am not obliged to record the truth of history, such as this is never consensus." And he backs it up by sometimes citing several versions of a story.

Historians of the new mould began with Thucydides, who took varying accounts, blended them together, cut off the excess with Occam's razor, and presented the product as historical truth. Only, it was the truth as he saw it.....not necessarily historical truth. And he doesn't always cite his sources. That's a big no-no nowadays.

BTW....if anyone ever intends to read Thucydides (I give him some much-warranted post-mortem publicity on this forum), order the translation by Thomas Hobbes. Believe me, it's fantastic.

[kwaichang]

Thanks SW I like being proven right by those I do not know. I say SKTJ heard 13 breathing any takers after the video I witnessed KC

[kungfujunky]

kc great clip!

honestly after seeing that how can you doubt?

there are similar stories of ninjas doing amazing things with their sensory perceptions.

it is just a matter of focus and practice

[kwaichang]

Hey KFJ I didnt post it it was SW

[The Xia]

I don't see any evidence for Su Kong's existence let alone such feats. The reasons why I don't believe the Su Kong story are as follows.
A) The Five Elders story is echoed by many lineages and is present all over Chinese folklore. If the Su Kong story were true, wouldn't it be well known within the Mo Lum and folklore? But it isn't, the Five Elders are though. The Su Kong story also contradicts the Five Elders story. What does that say?
B) Su Kong's dates don't match with those of Southern Shaolin history.
C) I don’t think it's possible to learn 900 forms well in one lifetime.
D) SD claims a lot of styles and says that they descend from the Shaolin Temple. In lineages recognized by the Mo Lum, many of the listed styles do trace back to the Shaolin Temple but they evolved over time. Also, many of the styles SD lists aren't even Shaolin. Not to mention, you’d have to be connected to certain recognized lineages that SD isn’t in order to really have certain styles.
E) I hear that funky lineage stories are really common in Indonesian martial arts.

[kungfujunky]

Hey KFJ I didnt post it it was SW



your right my mistake!

thx sw

[kungfujunky]

I don't see any evidence for Su Kong's existence let alone such feats. The reasons why I don't believe the Su Kong story are as follows.
A) The Five Elders story is echoed by many lineages and is present all over Chinese folklore. If the Su Kong story were true, wouldn't it be well known within the Mo Lum and folklore? But it isn't, the Five Elders are though. The Su Kong story also contradicts the Five Elders story. What does that say?

that doesnt make it false. many styles dont echo that story. does that make them inherintly false just because? that is a loose argument at best


B) Su Kong's dates don't match with those of Southern Shaolin history.

of known recorded shaolin history. not more than 10-15 years ago southern shaolin temples were considered a fairy tale and yet they have found a number of them


C) I don’t think it's possible to learn 900 forms well in one lifetime.

thats your opinion of course. but has no bearing on the overall point of contention


D) SD claims a lot of styles and says that they descend from the Shaolin Temple. In lineages recognized by the Mo Lum, many of the listed styles do trace back to the Shaolin Temple but they evolved over time. Also, many of the styles SD lists aren't even Shaolin. Not to mention, you’d have to be connected to certain recognized lineages that SD isn’t in order to really have certain styles.

what styles are you referring to and hundreds of years ago there very well could have been a connection. so again this is not a solid point


E) I hear that funky lineage stories are really common in Indonesian martial arts.

and i hear there are martians on mars. while that very well may be true it is not relevant.



it has been said time and again that sd had to adapt and add new things to it to stay hidden from persecution while in indonesia.

from what i have seen all of those newer trappings are shown before first black.

after that we learn traditional shaolin kung fu styles.

[kwaichang]

History is just that HIS STORY. History is warped to fit the purpose of the teller. Perhaps the 5 elders story is off a little, anyway I have trained in SD for 15 years and have learned over 100 forms if my count is correct. So I think 900 in a life time is possible with the right effort. "funky" Lineage stories are also prevelant in Japanese English and Chinese histories as well. This as you say has no Logic as to why you dont believe the history of SD.

I will tell you why I do believe and it is simple. I have heard GMT tell the story of SD many times and I have heard the story from those he told. If it is a lie then the story would change as we all know a story that is not true tends to change over time. And since no one can disprove it it is true in my opinion. Also it is well known that the Chinese would often kill infants that were undesirable , the greeks and spartains and Japanese as well so why should they talk of it ??? KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

I finally watched the link I posted on the blind guys and echol to verify it.

Surprise, surprise, it wasn't any of the ones I'd seen before. I've seen even more impressive feats---blind guys navigating with echol on noisy city streets and busy intersections.

Just goes to show there are people doing what SKTJ is purported to having done on an everyday basis.:D

[The Willow Sword]

You know this is a broken record guys. It is uncanny how one thread in a whole plethera and multitude of forums can be so redundant to the point of ridiculous and comical. I am amazed at it all really. Still though, no answers worth giving ole willow sword here from the Man himself( i guess letters do not arrive at their destinations in tact, or they are disregarded) No meetings this Feb ever took place to ask the questions and get answers. Alot of talk and posturing, but no real actions taken.

Oh well, it is almost davinci code'ish in that the Truth could shock the very foundation of the shaolin-do world,LOL:D The Kung FU world at that:eek:

i am envisioning an Old Kwaichang kneeling before an elaborately created pyramid with the sarcophagus of Sukong himself underneath in the year 2045.:rolleyes:



Peace and prosperity to you all ,,TWS.

[BoulderDawg]

i am envisioning an Old Kwaichang kneeling before an elaborately created pyramid with the sarcophagus of Sukong himself underneath in the year 2045


I just want to see some bones with hair all over them.:D

Is this like "The Lost Tomb of Su"!

[tattooedmonk]

I just got done watching and reviewing a wushu,( contemporary and modern.mostly contemporary, meaning fighting arts ), virtual magazine site which has all these videos of CMA.

Anyway......... I am sitting here watching all these forms and seeing so many moves directly out of some of our forms in SD, performed just like we do them.

For all you idiots that think and believe that SD does not teach authentic Shaolin Kung Fu you are lost and totally clueless.

You all get caught up in the outward trappings and whatever but none of you have any idea of what true Shaolin or CMA is if you think SD is not the real deal.

You are too caught up in the non intrinsic aspects to see the truth.

SD is for real.

Yeah some of the claims and this and that may be out there but this does not take away from the true heart of the art ,which SD definately has.

So go pull your heads out of your @$$es long enough to experience SD for a couple of months and you will surely be convinced .

and by the way.........STFU already about all this BULL$hit. Unless you have some undeniable proof that SD is not what it claims to be STFU!!!

what I am tired of hearing from all you @$$ wipes is the same old sorry cr@p. pick something relievant and intrinsic about the art to debate about.

stupid keyboard martial arts want a bees.:D

[tattooedmonk]

...........as I understand it the southern temple that Su Kong resided in is different than the one from the Five Elders history.

The one of the five elders history was a smaller temple associated with the main temple ,so this would account for the difference in dates and histories.

Just like it was said before it is HIS Story.

Even the Bible is said to be the word of God but the problem is man wrote it and he has flaws and makes mistakes . Man has a narrow perspective based on biases. Do you , if you believe in the Bible , believe that it is all accurate and has no flaws ??

Hell so many books have been left out of the Bible.

As far as I am concerned the editing and leaving sections out is a flaw and outright a mistake.

Anyone read the Book of Enoch ?? That is some mind blowing $h!t!!

Only recently, ( this is relative ), has there been the documentation and publishing of the history of CMA and the Shaolin Temples .

There is a great deal of the history that has been lost for many reasons for many years.

Some say there was only one Shaolin Temple, in Honan. Some say that there was never any martial arts taught there. Many peolpe say all sorts of things and a great deal of it is hard to prove .

So take that and stick it in your ear!!!

[kungfujunky]

i agree the omitted books of the bible paint a very different picture than what the church wanted seen

hey willow sword i knew the pic thing would get you to post lol