Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[BoulderDawg]

I got into MA because I had harmonized my personal philsophy with Taoism and Buddhism...especially Zen...and knew there were physical exercises associated with these philosophies (I weight trained and ran distance....but was looking for something more.....and kung fu seemed like the way). I believe it is the way.

I don't know about your school but at mine they have gone to great lenghts to make sure that everyone knows that the program at CSC is in no way, shape or form associated with the buddhist religion.

Personally I think the two cannot be separated. Afterall it spring from the Shaolin Temple.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Same deal here.....and I agree.

[John Many Jars]

You sound like me a couple years ago.

I really liked the school and the Soards but was getting extrememly frustrated w/ not only being pushed to but the ease in which people would pass to the next belt level. How nobody (fellow students) could show me applications from forms because they didn't really know them and didn't care to learn them. Then listening to the enlarged egos of said people spouting how good our art is and how they could kick anybody's a$$.

It was about that time I found this forum and Bullshido and things went even more downhill. There was the question of lineage, made up forms, how real/alive (for the Bullshidokas) the training is, etc. My training went to hell and I started bringing my bad attitude to class. It was at that point I realized I had to quit the school. Not only for myself but out of respect for the school and what it had given me (there were still a lot of positives).

All said and done, I took about 4 mos. off. During that time I still got together w/ some classmates and found ways to supplement my training so I was getting what I needed to feel happy. I'll tell ya, not being around the frustrations of class really gave me time to put things in perspective.

Going to class is much easier now. Not only do I check my ego at the door but also my expectations. I'm always looking for somebody to work on applications with, spar, or whatever I feel like doing that day during practice hour and I usually can find at least one person that's into it. If not, that's fine. They're there for their own reasons, not mine.

IMVHO, the art offers many things to many people but not everything to every person. I'm lucky enough to have found a way to make it work for me through training outside of class w/ people who have similar goals. You need to decide (which you're doing now) if you can make it work for you. Personally, I woudn't hinge my decision on GMT's visit. GMT isn't the one teaching you every week. It's your instructor. If he's good, he's good. If he's not, he's not.

If you're having doubts about how you're measuring up to other arts, then hook up w/ people outside of your school to see how you compare.

Good luck. =)



On a side note, again, I don't think Master Grooms studied w/ the Soards so any changes he made to forms wouldn't have been from them. =/

[The Xia]

Are you kidding me? You're seriously telling Wookie to wait 10 years before deciding on what he wants to do? I think that's a ridiculous thing for him to do. I think that's the kind of thing that some people think is traditional but isn't and makes a lot of MMA guys laugh at TMA.
The only way I’d say ok to dropping 10 years to decide is if Wookie were doing that sensory depravation chamber immortality thing and it actually worked.
Shaolin Wookie confirmed that he has already asked himself the two questions I listed. In my opinion, the best thing for him to do is to honestly answer them and act accordingly. That's my two cents.

[BlueTravesty]

I found an art I loved and wanted to stay with, but the school closed down due to a variety of factors :( But they say it's better to have loved and lost than not to have loved at all. In my case, "her" name was MyJhong, and "she" was a beaut.

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=The Xia;738644]Are you kidding me? You're seriously telling Wookie to wait 10 years before deciding on what he wants to do?

I thought that was called a bad marriage:cool:
BQ

[BlueTravesty]

:D *rimshot*

[Lamassu]

Nobody here is saying Shaolin Wookie needs to stay with SD for 10 years before he decides if it's his cup of tea, at least, I'm not. I'm in perfect agreement with you that he should venture out, if only to see that despite all the smack talking on this forum from students of other schools, that they're no different from us. What this all boils down to is do we, Shaolin Do, lose a student to, any other cma out there in the U.S. As I said, I don't really care if he stays or goes because that is a personal decision on his part and doesn't really pertain to ANY of us, other than him asking for our imput and advice. Regardless, if I were to commit to a martial art, cma or otherwise, I personally, would stay with it for about a decade only because that's a long enough time to get to the meat of the martial art. Nothing worthwhile is easy and instant gratification is great for coffee and candy, but not for martial arts.

[The Xia]

I thought that was called a bad marriage:cool:
BQ
lol!!!! :D

[kwaichang]

THE GRASS ALWAYS SEEMS GREENER ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE !!!
I am saying 2 years is not enough time remember the fox that chases 2 rabbits catches neither KC:D

[The Xia]

Nobody here is saying Shaolin Wookie needs to stay with SD for 10 years before he decides if it's his cup of tea, at least, I'm not. I'm in perfect agreement with you that he should venture out, if only to see that despite all the smack talking on this forum from students of other schools, that they're no different from us. What this all boils down to is do we, Shaolin Do, lose a student to, any other cma out there in the U.S. As I said, I don't really care if he stays or goes because that is a personal decision on his part and doesn't really pertain to ANY of us, other than him asking for our imput and advice. Regardless, if I were to commit to a martial art, cma or otherwise, I personally, would stay with it for about a decade only because that's a long enough time to get to the meat of the martial art. Nothing worthwhile is easy and instant gratification is great for coffee and candy, but not for martial arts.
It seemed to me that KC was saying he should wait until he has 10 years in SD but whatever. I still disagree that roughly a decade in any art should be the key time for deciding on it, I feel that's way too long for all practicality. I agree with Yao Sing that a month should really do it.
THE GRASS ALWAYS SEEMS GREENER ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE !!!
I am saying 2 years is not enough time remember the fox that chases 2 rabbits catches neither KC:D
Actually, cross training is a time-honored tradition for martial artists across the globe. Besides, it seems that Wookie isn't just doing this to cross train but that he is at a crossroad where he wants to get to the bottom of what he's doing and see if he wants to take another road or not.
Sidenote-That’s a lot of uses of the word “cross”! :D

[Lamassu]

A month is enough time?! I don't care what martial art you study, the only way that is ample time to decide if the school you joined is right for you is if you're WAY off track, like say: "I want to focus on takedowns and ground fighting, and I end up in a wushu class!" You're still a white belt in one month's time for pete's sake! The core, the heart of ANY martial art cannot be ascertained in only ONE month's time! The way I see this so far is that KC wants Shaolin Wookie to wait too long and you want him out immedietly. I question your motives. Are you really concerned about Shaolin Wookie's CMA progress, or is it a chance for you to encourage a skeptic to leave Shaolin Do? I have faith in Shaolin Do, so much in fact that I WANT Shaolin Wookie to go out and explore and see for himself that all the other martial art schools out there are no different and NO BETTER than us!

[The Xia]

A month is enough time?! I don't care what martial art you study, the only way that is ample time to decide if the school you joined is right for you is if you're WAY off track, like say: "I want to focus on takedowns and ground fighting, and I end up in a wushu class!" You're still a white belt in one month's time for pete's sake! The core, the heart of ANY martial art cannot be ascertained in only ONE month's time!
I disagree, someone who has done enough research about martial arts and has an eye for what's what will be able to tell right away if something is the real deal or not. That aside, I think one month is enough for you to see how things are run and decide if that style is right for you. You may not go deep into the style in a month but you get a taste. And a taste is all it takes to see if you like something.
The way I see this so far is that KC wants Shaolin Wookie to wait too long and you want him out immedietly. I question your motives. Are you really concerned about Shaolin Wookie's CMA progress, or is it a chance for you to encourage a skeptic to leave Shaolin Do? I have faith in Shaolin Do, so much in fact that I WANT Shaolin Wookie to go out and explore and see for himself that all the other martial art schools out there are no different and NO BETTER than us!
If you've read through the bulk of my posts in this thread, you probably know my opinions about SD, so that's the view I'm coming from. You are free to feel the way you do about SD but I'm also free to feel the way I do. And just as you are free to comment based on the way you feel, so am I.

[kwaichang]

I think , as most have said, 10 years hardly scratches the surface. in any martial art. I trained in other systems for 10 years or more it only gave me greater insight to the MA KC:)

[Lamassu]

So there you have it. I believe you have more than enough imput within these past two pages of the post to make your decision. You have BLIND FAITH in Shaolin Do, and you have venemous words of those who don't care about you but simply hate Shaolin Do for their own delusional reasons. You are about to start a journey in self discovery, and regardless which path you end up taking, remember that ALL comments posted INCLUDING my own are asinine opinions and NO ONE knows what's best for you, but you.

[Yao Sing]

You have BLIND FAITH in Shaolin Do, and you have venemous words of those who don't care about you but simply hate Shaolin Do for their own delusional reasons.

I take exception to that rematk. He gets 2 'non-praise for everything SD' and you chalk it up to hate of SD for delusional reasons? I have no personal bias for or against SD. I couldn't care less whether he stays or not.

You're certainly not doing anything to put SD in a good light with comments like that.

And for the record nobody is saying you can get insight into the essence of a system in one month. What we're saying is that's long enough to see what's offered and how it's tught. Obviously if you see something of interest then stick with it a little longer to make a better decision.

I'm sure after 2 years he has a good idea of how the training goes there or are you suggesting it changes drastically for the better after a certain period of time?

What changes after 1st Black? All of a sudden you start sparring? All of a sudden they start teaching apps for every technique/form?

If you're learning crap the first month you're probably going to learn crap the following 1, 2, 3 years down the road. If you're looking to fight and the advanced students tell you there is no sparring class why stick around?

Apparently application is less then what he's comfortable with and the instruction is not what he expects from a martial arts school. If it's lacking in the first year it's likely to be lacking in the second year.

[BoulderDawg]

Just something that's crossed my mind:

How would someone handle leaving?

For example, if you were going to leave at the end of Feburary would you announce that now? Or would you wait until the last night and say "Goodbye folks!"? or would you simply leave and not say anything?

I go for not saying any goodbyes until the last night you are there. Because we all know human nature and no matter your excuse for leaving they'll be people there who will take it personally. That last week or so could be tough.

[NJM]

Tradition comes from the latin word traditio meaning to hand over or pass down. Having a belt ranking system is part of a new and different tradition . It does not make it any less "traditional " because it is used. I see this view as being shallow and non intrinsic. Nor does the uniform , the terminology/ language, or any of the outward appearances or physical/ symbolic rituals ,because of variation, make it any less traditional. What makes it traditional or not is whether it is taught, learned, and practice the same way for multiple generations. With all the same discipline , honor , respect , and loyalty,

Hey dude.

That post you quoted was just the explanation of another post, which, if you read, had nothing to do with judging the relevance of one tradition over another. I was just clarifying what I meant by a word in the above post. Learn 2 internet, fool. :D

[Lamassu]

I take exception to that rematk. He gets 2 'non-praise for everything SD' and you chalk it up to hate of SD for delusional reasons? I have no personal bias for or against SD. I couldn't care less whether he stays or not.

You're certainly not doing anything to put SD in a good light with comments like that.

And for the record nobody is saying you can get insight into the essence of a system in one month. What we're saying is that's long enough to see what's offered and how it's tught. Obviously if you see something of interest then stick with it a little longer to make a better decision.

I'm sure after 2 years he has a good idea of how the training goes there or are you suggesting it changes drastically for the better after a certain period of time?

What changes after 1st Black? All of a sudden you start sparring? All of a sudden they start teaching apps for every technique/form?

If you're learning crap the first month you're probably going to learn crap the following 1, 2, 3 years down the road. If you're looking to fight and the advanced students tell you there is no sparring class why stick around?

Apparently application is less then what he's comfortable with and the instruction is not what he expects from a martial arts school. If it's lacking in the first year it's likely to be lacking in the second year.

*sigh* :rolleyes:

You're right, by striking back at those that attack SD with no basis to do so, who even think that it's nothing more than a series of websites on the net, or gloss over what's stated in those websites with over generalization, or criticize it's technique without even experiencing it first hand... aren't I the heel to think less of those who think less of me and mine?

Sparring begins once you earn your yellow belt, and learning practical applications start at day one. These of course differ from instructor to instructor, though a poor instructor doesn't accurately represent other kwoons or the system itself, so it depends on who's teaching the student. What happens after you receive your 1st degree bb is you learn more complex and longer forms, in fact that's all you learn (while you do more sparring and practical application). After you receive your bb, you are expected to be mature and clever enough to figure out various practical applications on your own, and no, they may not be what the original intent of the form may be, but that's the point, to discover new practical applications from these forms and to challenge the student both physically and mentally. Has ANYONE here on this forum ever just THINK about a form they learned and what the practical applications are on their own?!! Why is this such a bizzare concept to everyone??!! :confused:

BTW, CMA trolls, when GMT talks about achieving immortality through a sensory deprivation tank, he doesn't mean it literally! Does anyone here even know what a sensory deprivation tank is?!! It's pretty self explanitory to me, GMT puts himself in an environment where he can neither see, nor hear, nor smell, nor touch, nor taste the outside world, so he won't be distracted and can therefore focus on various forms, philosophies, beliefs...whatever! He's not the first person to do this and he won't be the last.

The arrogance of those who belittle SD, with practically NO knowledge of it or it's forms, can only be matched by their ignorance!

[The Xia]

*sigh* :rolleyes:

You're right, by striking back at those that attack SD with no basis to do so, who even think that it's nothing more than a series of websites on the net, or gloss over what's stated in those websites with over generalization, or criticize it's technique without even experiencing it first hand... aren't I the heel to think less of those who think less of me and mine?
Have you read the things anti-SD people say on this thread? My opinions are based on the information I've read about the system and the skill I've seen of practitioners.
BTW, CMA trolls, when GMT talks about achieving immortality through a sensory deprivation tank, he doesn't mean it literally! Does anyone here even know what a sensory deprivation tank is?!! It's pretty self explanitory to me, GMT puts himself in an environment where he can neither see, nor hear, nor smell, nor touch, nor taste the outside world, so he won't be distracted and can therefore focus on various forms, philosophies, beliefs...whatever! He's not the first person to do this and he won't be the last.
So are you saying that Sin The's way of telling people that he wants to spend some time alone is announcing that he is going to achieve immortality through a sensory depravation tank?
The arrogance of those who belittle SD, with practically NO knowledge of it or it's forms, can only be matched by their ignorance!
I read about the system, read what people said about it, and have watched SDers doing forms. I guess I'm arrogant for forming an opinion based on that. :rolleyes:

[Meat Shake]

This subject is like a hydra... cut its head off once and seven more debates grow out of the wound...
I havent browsed these forums in quite some time.... Over a year.
I trained SD.
I am the one and only person here to hold the official moniker of Shaolin-Do.
I was proud of it once... I was also young and foolish. Its kinda like how you think Bud Ice is the greatest beer on earth.... Until you try an import.
No one wants to admit that what they work so hard for may not be what it was believed to be in the beginning. Everyone wants to cling on to the last bit of hope that what they have been told and believed as truth to be real, whether or not it goes against their better judgement.
I ask only one thing of you that study SD and continue to believe in it...
If you are training for fun, for health, or simply for something to do, by all means rid yourself of the burden of debating senselessly on online forums and enjoy what it is that you do. If you wish to learn how to fight however... Find an MMA student, Judo, Brazilian Jiujitsu, or Muay Thai student, and spar with them. See what you can use that you have learned. Dont tell me "Its too Deadly", because its not. I studied SD for about 2 years, and I have a great deal of respect for the people I trained with because in all honesty they treated me like family. The art I learned however, regardless of how cool some of the moves may look, was not anything that I would call effective. Its even to the point that anything besides some of the basic punches and kicks could get you seriously injured in a real confrontation.
Train hard and love what you do, but keep yourself grounded. Dont lose touch with reality. Its hard to let go of something you have worked hard to achieve, but open your eyes. The truth is right in front of you....

[Lamassu]

I think you're one of the few who criticize and express your opinion in a respectful manner. I understand that not everyone will like SD, but to insult people who do like it is pretty demeaning, and you can't admit that we SDer's, well, not most of us anyway, deserve to be treated like that, or like we're some joke. It's crap like that, that deterioates any meaningful conversation we try to have on this forum into mud slinging. It just seems like everytime one of us puts in our two cents about something, we're ridiculed right off the bat. I still spent 6 years of my life training in forms, sparring a wide variety of partners from little guys to giants, from white belts to 6th degree black belts. I still go home and practice my forms so that I maintain them in my muscle memory, and I still do about half an hour of stance training every day.

As for GMT striving for "immortality" in a sensory deprivation tank, I don't take that literally, and it's stupid to think otherwise.

For the record, I agree with you and Yao Sing that Shaolin Wookie should venture out and experiment with other schools, but for different reasons other than yours.

[Meat Shake]

Just understand that SD has been a subject on this forum as long as this forum has existed... This is nothing new. Some people have become callous in talking to others about it over time.
It does seem however, that the overwhelming majority of SD students who still believe whole heartedly in it and its capabilities, do not have much experience in "combat arts".
I left SD for Shuai Chiao, BJJ, and Muay Thai.
Its harder on the body, but for fighting, its more real.
I can simply equate it with learning to cook reading cook books without ever firing up the stove. Maybe you looked at your pots and pans, even tasted the sugar... But understanding how it all works together in action is integral to success.
What you study will however, at least keep you healthy, both mentally and physically. (So long as you continue to love what you do)
And in all honesty, if you believe in what you do, and enjoy it, does it really matter what people on an internet forum have to say?
And a CMA forum for f*cks sake? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
Half the people here are working just as hard to become a level 14 wizard as they are at learning to fight. :eek:
(Lightning bolt!)

[brucereiter]

If you're having doubts about how you're measuring up to other arts, then hook up w/ people outside of your school to see how you compare.

i have always though it was a good idea to meet with people from other schools and systems to "compare notes" doing so is one of the things that has affirmed many of the lessons i have learned from shaolin do.



I don't think Master Grooms studied w/ the Soards so any changes he made to forms wouldn't have been from them. =/


my teacher sr master grooms earned his first degree black belt under the soards when he lived in denver and learned almost everything from 1st to 2nd Black from them. Everything else with a couple of exceptions he got directly from grandmaster the'.

As far as “tweaking” of forms teachers try to teach as they were taught sometimes small things change but most of the material has been consistent since I started. I have noticed when visiting other sd schools that people do the forms different even from school to school under the same master …

at some point in your training you will perform some "moves" in your own way with your own understanding instead of your teachers understanding but while you are at the beginning of the learning process you will need to rely on your teachers "understanding" since at that point you might have no basis to make your own decisions from ... :-)

best,

b

[ninthdrunk]

I have always found it interesting that if people stick around for any length of time, of the ones who quit, most seem to quit after six months or two years. These time tables have been found to be the exact same length of time as the "infatuation" stage in dating. What's funny, is that so many people who end up leaving shaolin do around these time tables, are also the ones who spout out the most on their own behalf: "I train X amount of hours every day" "I have the most respect for my teacher" "I work very hard" etc. This always strikes me as pretty funny, since it's often really hard to find faults in ourselves when we're breaking up with someone as well. And sometimes, which is hard to admit too, there's no one at fault...y'all just don't mesh.

Man, sometimes you just don't want to do what it is you're doing after the infatuation has worn off. No biggie. It seems like you either A) really want someone to tell you why you should stay, or B) tell you why you should leave. In other words, it's like you're trying to rationalize your decision with a message board...you know setting up some sort of self-determination based on what you get here. And for the most part, we really only pay attention to the evidence supporting our decision anyway. Well, you seem like a pretty intelligent kid/guy/chick/whatever, and in relationships, it's good to have a support group. But, I think in this case I think you need to find an objective audience...people who don't have a stake in your decision (and in some small way, anyone who answers on here does have a stake). Deep down, I think you know what you want; I'm sure you can tell whether it's cold feet, or if you're really ready to leave

ps. If you decide to stick around, pm me for what I think is some of the best advice I've ever received about rank advancement and learning new material. I was where you were for awhile and Master Schaefer really helped put it in perspective for me.

[Baqualin]

I have always found it interesting that if people stick around for any length of time, of the ones who quit, most seem to quit after six months or two years. These time tables have been found to be the exact same length of time as the "infatuation" stage in dating. What's funny, is that so many people who end up leaving shaolin do around these time tables, are also the ones who spout out the most on their own behalf: "I train X amount of hours every day" "I have the most respect for my teacher" "I work very hard" etc. This always strikes me as pretty funny, since it's often really hard to find faults in ourselves when we're breaking up with someone as well. And sometimes, which is hard to admit too, there's no one at fault...y'all just don't mesh.

Man, sometimes you just don't want to do what it is you're doing after the infatuation has worn off. No biggie. It seems like you either A) really want someone to tell you why you should stay, or B) tell you why you should leave. In other words, it's like you're trying to rationalize your decision with a message board...you know setting up some sort of self-determination based on what you get here. And for the most part, we really only pay attention to the evidence supporting our decision anyway. Well, you seem like a pretty intelligent kid/guy/chick/whatever, and in relationships, it's good to have a support group. But, I think in this case I think you need to find an objective audience...people who don't have a stake in your decision (and in some small way, anyone who answers on here does have a stake). Deep down, I think you know what you want; I'm sure you can tell whether it's cold feet, or if you're really ready to leave

ps. If you decide to stick around, pm me for what I think is some of the best advice I've ever received about rank advancement and learning new material. I was where you were for awhile and Master Schaefer really helped put it in perspective for me.

Most logical post on this subject yet....good to hear from you 9th....looking foward to seeing you at Meteor Fist!
I've seen the same thing seems like brown belt has the highest drop out rate.

[ninthdrunk]

BQ-

Yeah! I can hardly contain myself these days. I got really bummed a couple weeks ago when I remembered/realized that I had been thinking March came after January! hahaha...I was so excited that I blocked out a whole month.

Oh, so did anything ever get figured out about our little gathering? If not, no sweat, but it would be nice to get together afterward. I'm actually planning on taking at least an extra couple days in the area so maybe we could hook up after the excitement dies down a little?

[KungFu Student]

"Here's the skinny of it. I don't like the advancement system--I think it's too easy for some slackers to advance. I understand the business aspect of the school, believe me I do. But it makes me wonder if it's the right place for me, as an individual. Everyone asks me why I don't advance....I say, remembering a form is not "knowing" a form. They seem kind of bewildered by my reply. That always surprises me."

S.W., I know what you are talking about. I have seen what I consider "posers" testing and not know the material as well as they should. And it used to bother me. When I came to the understanding that their advancement, sometimes past me, has nothing to do with how good of a student I am, then things were all right. Some students seem to pick up the movements faster than me, and that is ok. It takes me a while to get the form down, and I work on it until I get it right. I am particularly bad about busting short kata's out fast and powerful. But those who move on, without truly understanding what they are studying, will have it come back to bite them later on.
My Master is running a business, and tests people who meet the requirements. However, I believe that he can tell the people who are in it because it is "cool" and those who are in it for the long haul. I mean, I waited almost five months before I even tested for my first Tai Chi sash. But in the end, he told me that he could tell I put in some hard work, and never has a issue with people who put in the extra time. Why should he? That just shows him dedication to the art.
I hope you figure out what road you want to travel. If it is with S.D. then great. If not, the choice is yours. But in the end, the road you travel is yours alone, and you should not let others tell you what road to take, they can just offer directions. :D

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=The Xia;738732]
So are you saying that Sin The's way of telling people that he wants to spend some time alone is announcing that he is going to achieve immortality through a sensory depravation tank?

Come on Xia your picking at words here....I already told you GMS is using the sensory depravation tank for mediation purposes.

No your not arrogant....you've made your observations on what you've heard and seen......no one has provided you with any information to change your opinion so far.....I have no problems with your post, the're always very logical & sometimes funny, but your running the sensory tank into the ground.;)
BQ

[Baqualin]

Just understand that SD has been a subject on this forum as long as this forum has existed... This is nothing new. Some people have become callous in talking to others about it over time.
It does seem however, that the overwhelming majority of SD students who still believe whole heartedly in it and its capabilities, do not have much experience in "combat arts".
I left SD for Shuai Chiao, BJJ, and Muay Thai.
Its harder on the body, but for fighting, its more real.
I can simply equate it with learning to cook reading cook books without ever firing up the stove. Maybe you looked at your pots and pans, even tasted the sugar... But understanding how it all works together in action is integral to success.
What you study will however, at least keep you healthy, both mentally and physically. (So long as you continue to love what you do)
And in all honesty, if you believe in what you do, and enjoy it, does it really matter what people on an internet forum have to say?
And a CMA forum for f*cks sake? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
Half the people here are working just as hard to become a level 14 wizard as they are at learning to fight. :eek:
(Lightning bolt!)

Where did you obtain your SD experience at??
BQ

[kwaichang]

You know guys some of you make these blanket statments about people who train in SD. Like many who are "believers" of SD have not done "real" combat arts. etc etc. Well Bull , those who train in the "MMA" {mixed up martial arts} seem to forget that most of the guys there have done "Traditional" MA for a long time. Like wise : since we arent pulling punches here, I have to agree with BQ as it were , when the going gets tough : the tough get going. In other words it is harder to train consistently in a Martial art that is like SD or Hung Gar or White Crane etc than the MMA BS. Lets define kick boxing ok: conditioning 4-5 kicks and boxing . There you have it. In a nut shell. It is much more difficult to Master a classical art where things take time to master or they work easily. thats where the art comes in.
So in a nut shell PEOPLE ARE BASICALLY LAZY AND LOOK FOR THE EASY WAY OUT. Much like those Brown belts / sashes who want to change and find their satori through the constant change so they can remain the enlightened White Belt and thus feed their EGO. Those who use excuses to change are simply too lazy to try and continue so they are the ego awe of the new school. KC

[Meat Shake]

Where did you obtain your SD experience at??
BQ

San Antonio, TX.

Kwaichang-
Are you saying that MMA is easy, and kung fu is much more difficult?

[Mas Judt]

How is MMA BS?

Look, by traditionalists, I'd be classified as a traditionalist. By MMA guys, I'm a MMA guy. Fighting is fighting.

Good MMA is HARD WORK. Heck, High School wrestlers work out harder and against more resistance than most 'martial artists.'

The fact is... and this is hard for a lot of people: most 'traditional' schools s@ck. It's true. It's always been true. Most 'traditional' schools don't practice real fighting, don't know they don't, or just don't understand how to really prepare for it. That being said, a good 'traditional school' can offer some great stuff - as long as it hasn't devolved into 'Society for Creative Anachronism' dedicated to preserving outdated war arts.

Meat Shake is correct. Heck Seven star came to a San Da seminar I gave years ago. He showed me his stuff. I felt bad, but i had to reccommend the Muay Thai & Judo, because his CMA options s@cked where he lived.

Fighting is fighting.

Now, it is tue that certain CMA do involve a much greater effort to develop the specific shen fa of the system. But in SD's case it is just memorizing a bunch of forms devoid of the original intent. So, I'd be wary of Meat Shake.

[Baqualin]

Where did you obtain your SD experience at??
BQ

San Antonio, TX.
I thought you all did some ground fighting there?
Kwaichang-
Are you saying that MMA is easy, and kung fu is much more difficult?

Getting your ass kicked is never easy.....what I think KC may be saying is it takes alot longer to effectively learn how to use the higher level techniques in chinese kung fu (most people never do) than the basic stuff you learned in two years of SD (kick & punch) and in the techniques used in most all competition fighting. And by the way we have SD people out there fighting in the cage and doing quite well...they love it when they get sh!t before they get in the ring. And some of us cross train with ground stylist or even Tai Chi Masters. H#ll even KC's training is as much other styles as SD....JP gets out there and goes a round or 2
Bottom line is what's best for you......everyone is different.....if you want to ring fight then train to ring fight....if you want to learn an ancient martial ART
then train for that.

By the way your very young now and can still fly....when your fifty Tai Chi will look alot different to you and when you look at the ring or mat you will hurt all over:cool:

[Baqualin]

How is MMA BS?

Look, by traditionalists, I'd be classified as a traditionalist. By MMA guys, I'm a MMA guy. Fighting is fighting.

Good MMA is HARD WORK. Heck, High School wrestlers work out harder and against more resistance than most 'martial artists.'

The fact is... and this is hard for a lot of people: most 'traditional' schools s@ck. It's true. It's always been true. Most 'traditional' schools don't practice real fighting, don't know they don't, or just don't understand how to really prepare for it. That being said, a good 'traditional school' can offer some great stuff - as long as it hasn't devolved into 'Society for Creative Anachronism' dedicated to preserving outdated war arts.

Meat Shake is correct. Heck Seven star came to a San Da seminar I gave years ago. He showed me his stuff. I felt bad, but i had to reccommend the Muay Thai & Judo, because his CMA options s@cked where he lived.

Fighting is fighting.

Now, it is tue that certain CMA do involve a much greater effort to develop the specific shen fa of the system. But in SD's case it is just memorizing a bunch of forms devoid of the original intent. So, I'd be wary of Meat Shake.

Not all SD schools just work on memorizing forms
The rest I agree with....If you want to fight competition you have to train for it or get your butt handed to you....strongest, fastest, bigest will win no matter the style.

[kwaichang]

? How Is MMA BS. You have answered it , it is just about fighting.
? to you. Do you think you train realistically ? Do you go to the street and test your skill ??
I think not.
Is MMA easy ? Yes. It is 70 % conditioning and 30 % skill. If you are in good shape for the ring you will win. Skill means winning when you have skill regardless of conditioning.
I speak from experience when I say this.
Kung fu traditionally taught is harder, if it is done right.
Why ? It involves the brain as well as the body. Example is Go Rin No Sho, The Art of War . Both Combat thesis but neither talk much about conditioning and mostly about Technique , strategy and Mind . Who of you have fought for real or has it been just sport. KC

[Yao Sing]

*sigh* :rolleyes:

You're right, by striking back at those that attack SD with no basis to do so, who even think that it's nothing more than a series of websites on the net, or gloss over what's stated in those websites with over generalization, or criticize it's technique without even experiencing it first hand... aren't I the heel to think less of those who think less of me and mine?

No, you were striking back at those that didn't tow the SD party line and YOU didn't like what you were reading and I'm calling you on it. All the SD peeps pretty much told him to stick it out except for The Xia and myself.

Either show me where I "attack SD with no basis to do so", "think that it's nothing more than a series of websites on the net", "criticize it's technique without even experiencing it first hand" or apologize for mischaracterizing my comments.

Man up or be the typical Internat a$$hole. Your choice.

I read about the system, read what people said about it, and have watched SDers doing forms. I guess I'm arrogant for forming an opinion based on that. :rolleyes:

Yeah, you haven't spent 10 years in the system so who are you to make a judgement? :)

[brucereiter]

? How Is MMA BS. You have answered it , it is just about fighting.
? to you. Do you think you train realistically ? Do you go to the street and test your skill ??
I think not.
Is MMA easy ? Yes. It is 70 % conditioning and 30 % skill. If you are in good shape for the ring you will win. Skill means winning when you have skill regardless of conditioning.
I speak from experience when I say this.
Kung fu traditionally taught is harder, if it is done right.
Why ? It involves the brain as well as the body. Example is Go Rin No Sho, The Art of War . Both Combat thesis but neither talk much about conditioning and mostly about Technique , strategy and Mind . Who of you have fought for real or has it been just sport. KC
hi kc,

i went to a pro mma fight last weekend. i saw a lot of skill specifically from nissen osterneck and from micah miller. i think both of those fighters have great conditioning and great "sensitivity" and great understanding of how the body works. lots of skill was shown. not just conditioning ... on the other hand i saw fighters who were just thugs with a lot of muscle beating on each other. i dont think you can generalize any art. it is the individual not the system they choose :-)

[Meat Shake]

Hehehe... Where to start...

"And by the way we have SD people out there fighting in the cage and doing quite well..."

Who? What venues?

" ? How Is MMA BS. You have answered it , it is just about fighting.
? to you. Do you think you train realistically ? Do you go to the street and test your skill ??"

Actually... Ive lived downtown in Minneapolis without a car for the last 2 years. Go online and look at the crime rate. Every 2 weeks there are between 6-20 violent crimes in within the 4 square mile radius between my place and CPA's. Not to mention the few nights stumbling home drunk across an empty downtown at 3 am...

"Is MMA easy ? Yes. It is 70 % conditioning and 30 % skill. If you are in good shape for the ring you will win. Skill means winning when you have skill regardless of conditioning."
This is just a statement of pure delusion... Nice statistics btw. How many times have you seen an immaculately healthy man get taken down by some tub of sh!t with large hulking man boobs? Plenty. Skill without conditioning is like having bullets with no gun.

As I said, if you are just interested in getting in shape, SD is great. So is Tai Chi. Tai Chi because of the breath focus is even good for your brain. Doesnt mean they make you a good fighter. Fighting does.

[John Many Jars]

my teacher sr master grooms earned his first degree black belt under the soards when he lived in denver and learned almost everything from 1st to 2nd Black from them. Everything else with a couple of exceptions he got directly from grandmaster the'.


Well, he can't be all bad if he lived in Denver. ;) j/k

Thanks for the info. I've only heard the Atlanta school mentioned once in class by a student who said the schools weren't connected and his web site never listed the Soards as his instructors.


You know, a bullet doesn't have to be shot out of a gun to poke somebody's eye out. :D

I'll probably get slammed from both sides for this but because of the way we train (at least at my school), the majority of students won't become great fighters, most likely not even good. I think they'll probably become better fighters than they were but not great. There are always exceptions and I see most of those exceptions in the higher ranks. Time definately seems to have its advantages in this art.

I haven't fought in pro or amatuer venues or (knock on wood) been in a street fight, so I can't back my statements up in that respect. But some of my classmates and I put the gloves on fairly regularly and up the intensity and speed at which we spar and I do see a lot of growth there. Maybe not as much or as fast as people training boxing, MT, wrestling or any other full contact sport but there definately is some there.

Just my 2 cents.


-So I don't give the wrong impression, there isn't a student at my school I can think of that I don't respect for the time and effort they've put into this art.

[Baqualin]

Hehehe... Where to start...

"And by the way we have SD people out there fighting in the cage and doing quite well..."

Who? What venues?

" ? How Is MMA BS. You have answered it , it is just about fighting.
? to you. Do you think you train realistically ? Do you go to the street and test your skill ??"

Actually... Ive lived downtown in Minneapolis without a car for the last 2 years. Go online and look at the crime rate. Every 2 weeks there are between 6-20 violent crimes in within the 4 square mile radius between my place and CPA's. Not to mention the few nights stumbling home drunk across an empty downtown at 3 am...

"Is MMA easy ? Yes. It is 70 % conditioning and 30 % skill. If you are in good shape for the ring you will win. Skill means winning when you have skill regardless of conditioning."
This is just a statement of pure delusion... Nice statistics btw. How many times have you seen an immaculately healthy man get taken down by some tub of sh!t with large hulking man boobs? Plenty. Skill without conditioning is like having bullets with no gun.

As I said, if you are just interested in getting in shape, SD is great. So is Tai Chi. Tai Chi because of the breath focus is even good for your brain. Doesnt mean they make you a good fighter. Fighting does.

Most of us are not calling MMA BS If you train to fight all out full contact no matter your style you will be a good fighter...if you don't train to fight that way you will not....it really has nothing to do with style....it's what you train for....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. Yes the're good fighters in SD and like anyother MA including MMA the're ones that suck.
You guys are arguing over nothing.

[BoulderDawg]

I'll probably get slammed from both sides for this but because of the way we train (at least at my school), the majority of students won't become great fighters, most likely not even good. I think they'll probably become better fighters than they were but not great. There are always exceptions and I see most of those exceptions in the higher ranks. Time definately seems to have its advantages in this art.

The honest to god truth about it is that we receive no training. During the time that the Soards were away we did not even spar for three months. Even now we've lucky if we do it once a week.

Even then it's "Grab your sparring equipment.........spar". So we dance around for a few minutes and thats about it. We have also done some silly stuff such as all black belts versus all brown belts........There really is no training or advice giving during sparring. However, of course, any sparring is better than none at all. You'll be able to pick up a little on your own.

[Lamassu]

No, you were striking back at those that didn't tow the SD party line and YOU didn't like what you were reading and I'm calling you on it. All the SD peeps pretty much told him to stick it out except for The Xia and myself.

Either show me where I "attack SD with no basis to do so", "think that it's nothing more than a series of websites on the net", "criticize it's technique without even experiencing it first hand" or apologize for mischaracterizing my comments.

Man up or be the typical Internat a$$hole. Your choice.

Yeah, you haven't spent 10 years in the system so who are you to make a judgement? :)

This whole **** thread is nothing but SD bashing, and SDer's defending their art, look at the title of the thread for pete's sake. How many times must I say that I agreed with you and Xia about Shaolin Wookie trying out other schools? How many? Do you black out when you come across those very words or merely gloss over them and continue to be antagonistic towards me? As for internet a$$hole, yes I am one, but no bigger than you, Xia, or anyone else on this forum swinging their ego's around and talking mad smack. This, BTW, has gone WAY off topic and now it's only a matter of pointless bickering. I'm done with it, think of me however you like, like Xia said: I have my opinions and he has his and you have yours. I'm having too good of a day to let this petty bickering that you won't let die, ruin it. :)

BTW, no, I haven't been in SD for 10 years, only 6 and hopefully I'll be able to continue my training until the day I die. :cool:

[godzillakungfu]

The honest to god truth about it is that we receive no training. During the time that the Soards were away we did not even spar for three months. Even now we've lucky if we do it once a week.

Even then it's "Grab your sparring equipment.........spar". So we dance around for a few minutes and thats about it. We have also done some silly stuff such as all black belts versus all brown belts........There really is no training or advice giving during sparring. However, of course, any sparring is better than none at all. You'll be able to pick up a little on your own.
It wasn't always like that. Not trying to say the schools alway made good fighters. Just saying there is a reason your upper ranks look good. It has less to do with time and more to do with contact.

[Mas Judt]

"? How Is MMA BS. You have answered it , it is just about fighting.
? to you. Do you think you train realistically ? Do you go to the street and test your skill ??
I think not.
Is MMA easy ? Yes. It is 70 % conditioning and 30 % skill. If you are in good shape for the ring you will win. Skill means winning when you have skill regardless of conditioning.
I speak from experience when I say this.
Kung fu traditionally taught is harder, if it is done right.
Why ? It involves the brain as well as the body. Example is Go Rin No Sho, The Art of War . Both Combat thesis but neither talk much about conditioning and mostly about Technique , strategy and Mind . Who of you have fought for real or has it been just sport. KC"

Kwai - the above post makes it very clear that you do not even have a frame of reference to make an intelligent observation. You need to crawl out from under your rock and get some experience young puppy...

[John Many Jars]

BoulderDawg,

This is what, IMHO, you should do. When a form is being taught, at some point, Master Dave or Sharon usually show applications for the form. When they do, remember them. Some of them are easier to pick up than others so if you have a question about what they're doing, ask them as they're showing it or after class.

Outside of class or during practice hour get w/ a parter and work on those applications. Turn them into a one step technique, gradually increasing the amount of resistance and have the attacker change the timing up. Then start incorporating that into your sparring.

If what I was trying to do wasn't working I'll go up to the person I was sparring (usually the highest rank I can get to spar w/ me) and say "I was trying to get this in but it just wasn't happening. Am I doing something wrong?" More often than not I'll get a good answer.

You've got some really good upper level BB in Boulder. People, I consider to be tough, not just good at doing forms. Those are the ones I would seek out, if I were you.


*edit* BoulderDawg check your PM's

[Meat Shake]

"if you don't train to fight that way you will not....it really has nothing to do with style....it's what you train for....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. Yes the're good fighters in SD and like anyother MA including MMA the're ones that suck."


Its not just that... SD is not geared for fighting, it is geared for forms. Straight down to the impractical moves that are taught.
That said.... I honestly dont think its much if any worse off than a good amount of other "traditional" styles of kung fu.
When I started Shuai Chiao, on my very first day, I spent 2 hours being thrown like a ragdoll to learn how to fall. As training progressed, the sessions moved to 4 hours of throwing and being thrown, and free wrestling, which was nothing more than applying what we had learned in a practical situation against a resisting opponent. Generally we would roll for the last 30 minutes to hour after we were already exhausted.
SD... I went in, we would do kicks, do punches, hit a bag, hit a bag moving, do forms, do kicks, do punches, do some more forms, swing around some weapons, and spar for 10 minutes with light contact and no realistic feedback.

[John Many Jars]

SD... I went in, we would do kicks, do punches, hit a bag, hit a bag moving, do forms, do kicks, do punches, do some more forms, swing around some weapons, and spar for 10 minutes with light contact and no realistic feedback.

When you say realistic feedback are you referring to the level of contact or lack of instruction? Just curious.

[tattooedmonk]

"if you don't train to fight that way you will not....it really has nothing to do with style....it's what you train for....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. Yes the're good fighters in SD and like anyother MA including MMA the're ones that suck."


Its not just that... SD is not geared for fighting, it is geared for forms. Straight down to the impractical moves that are taught.
That said.... I honestly dont think its much if any worse off than a good amount of other "traditional" styles of kung fu.
When I started Shuai Chiao, on my very first day, I spent 2 hours being thrown like a ragdoll to learn how to fall. As training progressed, the sessions moved to 4 hours of throwing and being thrown, and free wrestling, which was nothing more than applying what we had learned in a practical situation against a resisting opponent. Generally we would roll for the last 30 minutes to hour after we were already exhausted.
SD... I went in, we would do kicks, do punches, hit a bag, hit a bag moving, do forms, do kicks, do punches, do some more forms, swing around some weapons, and spar for 10 minutes with light contact and no realistic feedback. Well I would say a great deal of your problem, and many others like you, is that there was not enough real training for fighting and more emphasis put on health and teaching material.

Quite simply there are not enough hours at the schools to put the time into practical application and usage. And I agree but not all SD / CSC schools are like this ( most are though).

Although the art is authentic Shaolin it is looked at more as a business/ social endeavor rather than a martial arts training center.

To combat this for years I personally took it upon myself to get together with students and take each of the elements of each form and teach and practice practical application and usage.

I am no longer affiliated but I still believe in SD and GMS. I learned all the material through 6th black ( which is more than enough for a lifetime)and now teach what I have learned with fighting and practical application the way that it should be done .

Do not get me wrong the business , social, and health / fitness aspect is very important but not as much as the practical application, usage, and the integrity of The Art.

I believe that this is compromised by the business aspect and the lack of Taoist , Confucist, Buddhist, and shamanist PHILOSOPHY.

Oh by the way my shuai jiao training has helped my bagua zhang out a whole hell of a lot.

[tattooedmonk]

BoulderDawg,

This is what, IMHO, you should do. When a form is being taught, at some point, Master Dave or Sharon usually show applications for the form. When they do, remember them. Some of them are easier to pick up than others so if you have a question about what they're doing, ask them as they're showing it or after class.

Outside of class or during practice hour get w/ a parter and work on those applications. Turn them into a one step technique, gradually increasing the amount of resistance and have the attacker change the timing up. Then start incorporating that into your sparring.

If what I was trying to do wasn't working I'll go up to the person I was sparring (usually the highest rank I can get to spar w/ me) and say "I was trying to get this in but it just wasn't happening. Am I doing something wrong?" More often than not I'll get a good answer.

You've got some really good upper level BB in Boulder. People, I consider to be tough, not just good at doing forms. Those are the ones I would seek out, if I were you.


*edit* BoulderDawg check your PM'sI agree!!!!

[tattooedmonk]

Most of us are not calling MMA BS If you train to fight all out full contact no matter your style you will be a good fighter...if you don't train to fight that way you will not....it really has nothing to do with style....it's what you train for....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. Yes the're good fighters in SD and like anyother MA including MMA the're ones that suck.
You guys are arguing over nothing. I agree. .........

[Shaolin Wookie]

After talking with plenty of people from both sides of the table, I've figured out a way to maximize my training with what I believe will be better results.

I sat down this afternoon (boss called me out today...got a day of rest:cool: ) and did something I considered hokey and pointless. I started drafting my goals for training. What I wanted to accomplish this year. Fitness. Conditioning. Skill. Refinement, etc.

Then I examined, honestly, what kind of person I am. I'm a painter, a writer, a pianist (poor one:o ), a runner, athelete, martial artist, philosopher, soon-to-be grad student looking to teach.

Then I examined my relationships with each of these facets of my personality, and how I'd dealt with them, and how I'd refined each of them.

I found a parallel: As a painter, I was an ardent artist all my life. So it was my decision to make it one of my two majors in college. I passed the reviews, took the classes, and began to learn new approaches (very new) to my art. The first class I took, the teacher collected everyone's materials and then confiscated them (almost all pencils and pens--my bread and butter:eek: ). He said: "you can have these back at the end of the year." Then he handed us big blocky 25 cent charcoal, and said: "Today you learn how to draw." It was true. I had to learn all over again, and it made me a thousand times better. But it wasn't all a labor in paradise. I struggled with various teachers really hard. There were at least two times I nearly dropped out of the art program to major in English alone. But every time I got to the point where I felt there was just no hope of coping with the program (very abstract-oriented, not much room for realists)....I would pull out my portfolio, set my latest works beside my older ones, and just critique myself...very honestly.

It was at these times I began to realize how I'd changed as an artist. I'd begun to think differently, approach things differently, see them differently, and describe them differently. But until that moment, where I really sat down to criticize myself, I'd felt like I'd hit a wall, and I couldn't see past it. And then, wham, some relfection and introspection would just punch right through that wall. I'd see these vast changes, and where they could take me.

I guess this kind of describes what I've been going through. I'm not through it, but at least I'm finding a way to get around it. It's much harder to gauge your progress in martial arts, because there's no finished product to look at. It's just....do I feel like I've made progress? Am I better? Do I enjoy what I'm doing? Would I do better elsewhere?

Well, I still enjoyed it. I wasn't sure I was better, though...but how could I not be? I just didn't feel like I'd made any progress. But when I looked around, I saw a couple of people I thought were on another level--where I wanted to end up. So surely SD was the right path. I've just got to find my way in the Way (redundant, I know:p ). It's not gonna be "one size fits all". I might have to make some of my own adjustments....in my mind, viewpoint, etc. Then I reminded myself that I'm always my own worst critic. I hate positive feedback. I don't feel it helps me much. I only want to hear negative criticism. That's just how I work, I guess. So I was probably just full of my own self-abnegation. Everything else...the whole real-shaolin...fake shaolin...Master The' this...Master The' that....that was all a cop out. It has nothing to do with training. It's all just the packaging. It wasn't the product, if you guys can feel me. I'm not going to apologize for the things I said, though--they were said in earnest. But as regards Master The': if he taught the guys I consider "on another level," then he's got to be good enough for me....just seems logical. If I can learn from him I should, rather than just scrutinize. Funny, usually that's my motto. Just don't know what's come over me recently....maybe I jsut had to expand my viewpoint.

So many people gave me good advice these past two weeks. But the best came from my brother yesterday. We'd been doing BJJ (me cross-training) for the past month....but didn't plan on doing it anymore (he was paying for both of us, and apparently World of Warcraft was more important to him..."dude, I just started a draenei Shaman....:D ....what a ****....haha....). Anyway, I told him I was considering a switch. He asked why. I told him, more or less.

He just said: dude, you've never quit anything in your life. Well, I disagreed. I mentioned religion and a bunch of other things. And he just replied: yeah, man, but you question everything. It's just what you do, and you'll never stop doing that.

So I kind of came to the realization that I was just doing what I do best (the conversation was much longer, and he was acutally informative---surprise surprise....my wierd, lazy brother:eek: ). All I was doing was struggling with some questions I needed to answer for myself. I've made that my new M.O. in the martial arts, now, rather than being spoonfed dogma--to seek. My brother told me: "Dude, if you lived in another era, you'd start up a Revolution just to see what'd happen." It was kind of true. I'm just a ****kicker, prankster, all around monkeyman...so I'm always going to be picking at something. I guess my martial arts was the subject of the day. My teacher talked with me that night, for which I am thankful, and it just reinforced what I'd been thinking about.

I'm sticking with what I'm doing. I've just got to hammer out the kinks. Can't quit. I don't plan on testing anytime soon. I'm going to focus on the external stuff, and my Tai Chi. So I'll just be doing one side of hte coin (mostly anyways, since I really do Tai Chi for body mechanics to help my fu...though I think my fu makes my Chi better....weird....). Tai Chi is a lot to handle in itself...and I don't really want to tack anymore internal stuff onto that struggle. On the off days, I could cross-train in SPM, if I feel like it....and right now I have the urge to look around. So, I could do that, and probably will. It's really different from what I learn now, in shape anyways. I think it'll help me make some progress. Maybe it won't....but at least I'll have satisfied my curiousity....and I'm a man ruled by curiousity. It's just the way I am. I know that, and I always have known that. I want to do everything, but I want to do one thing excellently. Sprout a root, then branch out....but stay grounded in the root. I figure I'm the guy who's always going to look, maybe even dabble here and there, but keep his roots solid.

Man, I hope my girlfriend never reads that.........

Anyways....I think I'm just going to read a book at work now. So much for this forum for a while. Not to slight it, but I could be doing something better. I can even work on some tension excercises instead. Might as well. Although, I've always treated this forum like a Demosthenian society--man, I miss those things....so it does have its value...kind of.....and it gives you a decent education in argument, so long as you can ignore a troll or two.

Well, later dudes....

[kwaichang]

What kind of experience would you recommend that I havent done. Or am doing . I have trained in many fighting arts probably longer than you have been alive.
Boxing at 6 years old
Began CMA at 11
Japanese Karate at 17
Boxed pro from 19 to 24
Entered no holds barred Matches 22-27, Bouncer in Numerous bars in Nashville and C/ Ville
Studied Ai Ki jutsu and Judo along with Japanese Karate hard style until 34
Began SD at 34
Trained with pro kick boxers including light welter and welter weight world champion
Fought Anthony the Amp elmore World Kick Boxing Heavy weight Champ
Train 5-7 days per week cross train with 10-15 rounds 4 x per week Heavy Bag work
No Puppy here son. KC
PS I didnt have time or room for all of it sorry, Oh did I mention Instructoe for joint special forces team ranger , airborne Navy special ops ??

[Mas Judt]

Nah, we're probably about the same age 'son'.

Unfortunately this just makes you look a little thick....

[Baqualin]

Well I would say a great deal of your problem, and many others like you, is that there was not enough real training for fighting and more emphasis put on health and teaching material.

Quite simply there are not enough hours at the schools to put the time into practical application and usage. And I agree but not all SD / CSC schools are like this ( most are though).

Although the art is authentic Shaolin it is looked at more as a business/ social endeavor rather than a martial arts training center.

To combat this for years I personally took it upon myself to get together with students and take each of the elements of each form and teach and practice practical application and usage.

I am no longer affiliated but I still believe in SD and GMS. I learned all the material through 6th black ( which is more than enough for a lifetime)and now teach what I have learned with fighting and practical application the way that it should be done .

Do not get me wrong the business , social, and health / fitness aspect is very important but not as much as the practical application, usage, and the integrity of The Art.

I believe that this is compromised by the business aspect and the lack of Taoist , Confucist, Buddhist, and shamanist PHILOSOPHY.

Oh by the way my shuai jiao training has helped my bagua zhang out a whole hell of a lot.

DITTO!! To all above!!;)

[kwaichang]

Truth is a hard thing to swallow , BTW what is the meaning of thick. ??? If you think I am lieing about what I told you son then you are in for a rude awakening. It is sad that those who train in Traditional / Classical MA do not put the time or effort into them to make them work. Those who train in MMA or other hybrid styles seem to have a decreased desire to put in the time to do it. It is this short cut method that leads to people wanting instant gratification which seems to be a short lived thing. KC

[Meat Shake]

In terms of feedback I mean that practical applications were pretty much never taught.
"Time to spar, no heavy contact, dont hit the head!"
When I asked about getting out of certain holds or avoiding certain situation some strange an ineffective move was always shown.
Its not so much the training philosophy of SD that I say isnt good for fighting, its the actual impractical techniques of the system.
Like I said, some of them may look really cool, but for the most part none of them have anything to do with fighting.

"PS I didnt have time or room for all of it sorry, Oh did I mention Instructoe for joint special forces team ranger , airborne Navy special ops ??"

If all that is the case... I have a hard time believing you would see anything other than aerobic kickboxing in SD.
I had a golden gloves boxer in my SD class that quit right about when I did.
And as for who you trained under... There was more than once when I went to Austin for seminars with master schaeffer... Its the same sh!t there, just put into a mystical awe that he is a "master".
My Shuai Chiao instructor trained for 25 years and had barely gotten his 3rd degree blackbelt. With the group I was training with, to get your first degree black belt took 7-10 years, and required use of virtually every technique and sparring within a free fighting environment.

[Mas Judt]

KC, I was being a bit rude - 'thick' meaning 'dense'. It was a casual slam at not noticing that the average MMA-er shows many more of the positive attributes of MA training than most 'traditionalists.'

I assure you, if you told an old-time Chinese caravan gaurd that you thought you were better off learning something that took longer and offered more 'health' benefits, they would laugh you right out of there.

CMA used to be all about fighting too. The other benefits came from training to fight.

[KungFu Student]

In terms of feedback I mean that practical applications were pretty much never taught.
"Time to spar, no heavy contact, dont hit the head!"
When I asked about getting out of certain holds or avoiding certain situation some strange an ineffective move was always shown.
Its not so much the training philosophy of SD that I say isnt good for fighting, its the actual impractical techniques of the system.
Like I said, some of them may look really cool, but for the most part none of them have anything to do with fighting.

"PS I didnt have time or room for all of it sorry, Oh did I mention Instructoe for joint special forces team ranger , airborne Navy special ops ??"

If all that is the case... I have a hard time believing you would see anything other than aerobic kickboxing in SD.
I had a golden gloves boxer in my SD class that quit right about when I did.
And as for who you trained under... There was more than once when I went to Austin for seminars with master schaeffer... Its the same sh!t there, just put into a mystical awe that he is a "master".
My Shuai Chiao instructor trained for 25 years and had barely gotten his 3rd degree blackbelt. With the group I was training with, to get your first degree black belt took 7-10 years, and required use of virtually every technique and sparring within a free fighting environment.

So how long were you in SD before you decided it was not for you?

[Judge Pen]

If I were training for a full contact fight, then my training would have to drastically change from my typical SD routine, but the techiques and applications that I've been taught could and would be used. My training methods would have to be modified. I think that's common with many who have a life outside of the martial arts (full time job and family). My training time is limited and I'm as interested in the aestics as I am in the fighting.

[MasterKiller]

If I were training for a full contact fight, then my training would have to drastically change from my typical SD routine, but the techiques and applications that I've been taught could and would be used. My training methods would have to be modified.

If you were training for a full contact fight, you would need more than just a modification to routine. You need lots of clinch work, and lots of ground work, two things lacking in most kung fu schools, including the one I initially trained in.

My kung fu punches, kicks, and throws work fine in an MMA environment...but without lots and lots of clinch work and lots and lots of ground work (wrestling and submissions, not the usual 'kick from the ground' TCMA stuff), you are destined to lose, no matter how hard you train your usual stuff.

Oh but wait, I know...I know...Most SD schools have awesome clinch work, and some even have a jiu-jitsu coach on Friday nights (not aimed at you, JP).

Guess what...even if it's true, it's still not enough.

[KungFu Student]

If I were training for a full contact fight, then my training would have to drastically change from my typical SD routine, but the techiques and applications that I've been taught could and would be used. My training methods would have to be modified. I think that's common with many who have a life outside of the martial arts (full time job and family). My training time is limited and I'm as interested in the aestics as I am in the fighting.

Well spoken. I think herein lies the rub. I personally do not think it is wise to let lower ranks to spar full speed/full contact. The chance of injury due to lack of control and technique is just too great. But the black belts do go at it hard when they spar at my school, but the control is obvious. People who do not devote their lives to study a M.A. for the most part cannot afford the chance of time away from work due to injury that full speed/contact sparring can possibly bring.

I was told from day one that forms are not to be taken literally, and used exactly as shown in a fighting situation, but more like building blocks to help you develop your own moves based on what you have been shown. Now being a lowly green belt, my experience is very limited, and I have yet to put my time in, so I am a work in progress.

It has also been my experience that each time I learned a new technique or form, I was instructed in it's practical application. Granted, there were times I said to myself "I don't think that I would do that in that situation", but I have had that issue in other M.A. that I have taken as well.

If a person wants to learn how to beat someone up, then i will admit that there are probably quicker ways to learn how to do it then SD. But I have no doubts that sticking with it and putting in quality practice, that I can defend myself if I need to. But that is not the main reason I take M.A.

[MasterKiller]

People who do not devote their lives to study a M.A. for the most part cannot afford the chance of time away from work due to injury that full speed/contact sparring can possibly bring.

I've witnessed more blown knees from badly landed tornado kicks and whatnot (2) that I've seen in MMA (0).

Both were kung fu brothers that never recovered enough to return to regular practice. I have never trained with anyone in MMA that got hurt so bad they had to quit. One guy got a bad staph infection and was out 6 weeks, but sometimes sh1t just happens that way.

Sure you can get hurt. But you can train hard and train safe at the same time.

Being hurt and being injured are not the same thing.

[KungFu Student]

Sure you can get hurt. But you can train hard and train safe at the same time.

Being hurt and being injured are not the same thing.

I cannot disagree with you there. I recently got kicked right in my left eyeball not to the side or up or down, square in the ball. It hurt, took all the fight out of me, but I sat down for a bit, and got back to it later on. The possibility of getting hurt or injured when you spar, especially full contact/speed, is the risk you have to take. But there are those who just don't want to take that chance, and I can accept that. There are also those who flat out don't like to spar, and I am ok with that too, different stokes and all. There are also those who want to train and spar hard, but can't stay safe at the same time. I have been in the situation where I have had to stop sparring with an individual because they were out of control, at least for me. It might be ok for some, but at my level of training I was not willing to keep going at their intensity level and risk getting injured. Some might view this as weak, but I know what I can do, and I know when I am in over my head.

[Judge Pen]

If you were training for a full contact fight, you would need more than just a modification to routine. You need lots of clinch work, and lots of ground work, two things lacking in most kung fu schools, including the one I initially trained in.

My kung fu punches, kicks, and throws work fine in an MMA environment...but without lots and lots of clinch work and lots and lots of ground work (wrestling and submissions, not the usual 'kick from the ground' TCMA stuff), you are destined to lose, no matter how hard you train your usual stuff.

Oh but wait, I know...I know...Most SD schools have awesome clinch work, and some even have a jiu-jitsu coach on Friday nights (not aimed at you, JP).

Guess what...even if it's true, it's still not enough.

You're right. What I would need is a lot more conditioning, more bag-work, drilling agasint resistance, and sparring at all ranges (clinch and ground especially). I couldn't agree more. But the applications in my forms contain these techniques. I would need to modify my intensity and training methods drastically if I were to square off against a well conditioned and well trained opponent in a full contact match. Look, we have 900 forms! We have plenty of application to chose from. :p

Something that always rubbed me wrong about MMA and UFC? Are there any regulations for steriods, performance enhancers or pain killers?

[kwaichang]

So anyway, I train to fight I love the forms but I can make them work or should I say the ABC's of them. 20 years ago or so I was a bouncer there were 20- 30 people going at it. Our job was to get them out of the club to the street. I was doing ok when this guy got me in a rear choke standing. As I remember it the following happened he started his choke I grabbed a leg he wrapped me with the other, i was losing it. So I thrust my self backward and slammed him on the curb his buddies picked hiom up and took him off. Let me say this about clinch work or ground. A thumb 2 inches into the eye socket or a testicle clamped between a thumb and fore finger , crunch, will break any hold. KC

[brucereiter]

Let me say this about clinch work or ground. A thumb 2 inches into the eye socket or a testicle clamped between a thumb and fore finger , crunch, will break any hold. KC

hi kc,

all respect to you but i think that might be a little naive ...

how do you get your thumb into the eye?
what if they move just enough that it does not hurt them? where do you go from there?

how do you get your hand on their nuts?
what if they are wearing big baggy thick jeans lol or even a nut cup?(i know people who do a lot of slamming in mosh pits and get into fights at shows who wear a cup and mouth guard)
what if you miss?
what if you just grap the "sack" and not the testicle?
then what good are these "moves"

i think a situation/fight would have to be pretty extreme for me to feel the need to blind a human being.

all i am getting at is it is not as easy as it sounds to poke an eye out or to grab/kick the nuts. specifically on a skilled fighter.

best,

b

[The Xia]

A good grappler will make it very difficult for you to use those techniques. I don't really get why some people see no value in grappling. Here's a fact, grappling is part of TMA, including Kung Fu!

[kwaichang]

WHAT IF? the great ultimate question the statement though effective is a rhetorical and an effective one. You can what if all day long. That is the intensity to fight with even the MMA have rules. If it is for real then make it for keeps. Dont F around. KC I like biting too the human mouth is very nasty. PS there is always something to grab.

[KungFu Student]

A thumb 2 inches into the eye socket or a testicle clamped between a thumb and fore finger , crunch, will break any hold. KC

Heh, absolutely. It always cracks me up when I am confronted by the "know every countermove" student. You know the type, the one that has the "ultimate" counter move for any situation. "If you did this, I would do this, and it would be over." I think to my self, "Ok, then I could kick you in the balls, or gouge you in the eyes or kick you in the knee." It is the simple moves that work the best. Not that I advocate doing that to a fellow student...:D

[KungFu Student]

A good grappler will make it very difficult for you to use those techniques. I don't really get why some people see no value in grappling. Here's a fact, grappling is part of TMA, including Kung Fu!

I see alot of value in grappling, I am doing some reading on San Shou Kuai Jiao and wish I could find somewhere locally that teaches it.

[BoulderDawg]

I don't know why we can't learn it all.

Let's learn how to kick and punch and also learn how to grabble.

Just from a nonviolent standpoint would not it be better to grab somebody in an armlock or leglock for a brief period until they calmed down instead of breaking their jaw?

I think grabbing someone in an armlock and saying "I know this hurts but if you calm down I will let you go" is much more impressive than smashing someone's face.

Also, from a self defense standpoint, I think learning some grabbling moves is better for a female in trouble. Using leverage against a man gives her enough advantage to get away. However trying to "slug it out" of go for the nuts or eyes might get the lady killed.

[The Xia]

KungFu Student,
Shuai Jiao is a great style. Good luck in finding a sifu.
BoulderDawg,
Grappling can be brutal as well. Throwing someone on a hard surface can do a lot of damage. It's even worse if the person doesn't know how to fall. Also, you don't have to "submit" someone, you can break and move on. That's really how you'd do it in a street situation where multiple opponents may be involved. It really depends on the situation. If you are a bouncer in a club, sparring, or competing, to name a few, it's a different story.

[KungFu Student]

Also, from a self defense standpoint, I think learning some grabbling moves is better for a female in trouble. Using leverage against a man gives her enough advantage to get away. However trying to "slug it out" of go for the nuts or eyes might get the lady killed.

In my opinion, I believe it is just the opposite. A female trying to get into grappling reach of a man would in most cases let the male utilize his strength advantage. By using you long reach weapons in a quick attack, in this case a kick to the groin or knee, or the jab to the eyes hopefully would stun them enough to allow a quick getaway. I was not advocating a slug fest in any way, man or women.

[The Xia]

Groin strikes and eye pokes don't always work.

[KungFu Student]

Groin strikes and eye pokes don't always work.

True, but there are alot of things that don't always work. :p A difference of opinion to be sure, but that is all it is. I am not saying that grappling does not have it's place in a real life confrontation. But me personally, I am going to do what ever I can to stay as far away from my assailant as possible, but if that is not an option, then I had better know how to keep them tied up as well.

[Baqualin]

If you were training for a full contact fight, you would need more than just a modification to routine. You need lots of clinch work, and lots of ground work, two things lacking in most kung fu schools, including the one I initially trained in.

Oh but wait, I know...I know...Most SD schools have awesome clinch work, and some even have a jiu-jitsu coach on Friday nights (not aimed at you, JP).

Guess what...even if it's true, it's still not enough.

MK read all my post about this subject before you pick at me. My statement is true, but I never said it was enough...never said we were a fight school....never said most....never said awesome clinch work...I was only making a point that there's more to some SD schools than people realize. I've always said, if your going to fight all out in the ring you have to train specifically for that or you will get your a$$ handed to you...I'm not stupid, I've been at this for 36 yrs. There are some people in SD training that way,not most and not me, I'm to old....but I still like to get on the ground once in a while. ;)
BQ

[kwaichang]

Hey I even like to do ground work especially if shes real good looking and built like Rachel Mcclish KC

[The Xia]

True, but there are alot of things that don't always work. :p A difference of opinion to be sure, but that is all it is. I am not saying that grappling does not have it's place in a real life confrontation. But me personally, I am going to do what ever I can to stay as far away from my assailant as possible, but if that is not an option, then I had better know how to keep them tied up as well.
That really depends on what kind of fighter you are. Some styles are short range and others long range and some are both. Some fighters prefer to keep distance and use long range techniques and others like to plow through the opponent and fight close range. Some prefer grappling, some prefer striking. Some like to do all of these things.
Hey I even like to do ground work especially if shes real good looking and built like Rachel Mcclish KC
If you are a fighter, it's not wise to dismiss groundfighting.

[kwaichang]

You slay me XIA. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

BJJ is a formidable fighting art. I've witnessed this firsthand this past month. The only thing is....tackling someone is not 100%....and it's where all the risk is involved.

I learned a lot about takedowns. Enough to know the art wasnt' for me.

But on a curious sidenote, just last Thursday my brother, who is out of shape and has no training whatsoever, and has an enormous flinch complex, was training takedowns with one of the purple belts at the school (which, from what I heard there, was pretty high rank). He was scary, mean, looking. Had all kinds of tats, and a bulldog on the back of the neck. He was ripped, had some scars, and the beginnings of cauliflower ears. I think he was a wrestler, or something.

This dude (who I won't name) was talking about the value of surprise in a takedown. He didn't announce what he was doing, and shot in for a takedown on my bro, I guess to prove his point. My brother flinched and threw a knee without thinking. It caught the guy square in the forehead....just crack! The guy curled up on the ground, and my brother was like: "Oh my god!! Are you okay!" The guy was swearing, red in th eface, and he got up about 5 minutes later, threatening my brother with basically bodily mutilation before he calmed down. (We haven't been back since.....:o ........)

So....groundwork, as we learned, is complex, technical, and takes a lot of skill. But like anything, it has its flaws and its weaknesses, and even a lucky shot can take the best of th ebest down like little *****es every once and a while.

(My brother's been bragging about it ever since......:D .....)

It's interesting, but definately not Invincible. But I know it's not particularly catching to some people. Plus, I didn't like the people we trained with. Some of 'em were,......I don't know.....a little....what's the word?

Assholish?:D

[Judge Pen]

I agree that a good grappler will make it very difficult to apply the classic "non-grappling" ground defenses of pressure points, eye-pokes and biting. It's like anything else, the theory and the concept are vastly differnt in application. These techniques can work, however, and should be considered in your aresenal if your in a scrape as should the full array of grappling techniques. BJJ guys can poke eyes and bite you too--I think a lot of people think that these techniques will catch a grappler unaware, which is silly. If its there and justified you do it to survive, but you won't know your opportunities until you are comfortable in the basics of ground-fighting. I see value in learning everything.

[Judge Pen]

So....groundwork, as we learned, is complex, technical, and takes a lot of skill. But like anything, it has its flaws and its weaknesses, and even a lucky shot can take the best of th ebest down like little *****es every once and a while.


Absolutely! Everyone should know enough to at least protect yourself if you get taken down and how to get back on your feet witout getting hurt. If you can learn that without the eye-pokes, biting, pressue-points, etc., then great--in a "real" encounter you will have that much more to employ.

[The Xia]

I agree that a good grappler will make it very difficult to apply the classic "non-grappling" ground defenses of pressure points, eye-pokes and biting. It's like anything else, the theory and the concept are vastly differnt in application. These techniques can work, however, and should be considered in your aresenal if your in a scrape as should the full array of grappling techniques. BJJ guys can poke eyes and bite you too--I think a lot of people think that these techniques will catch a grappler unaware, which is silly. If its there and justified you do it to survive, but you won't know your opportunities until you are comfortable in the bbasics of ground-fighting. I see value in learning everything.
I couldn't put it better myself.
Wookie,
Interesting story. I think it ties into what JP just said. Sure, sprawling is an effective counter to the shoot but knees, downward elbows, and other techniques can also work. It really has to do with the fighters involved.

[MasterKiller]

I learned a lot about takedowns. Enough to know the art wasnt' for me. Takedowns are easy. I grab you and we fall down. BJJ is about positional awareness and dominance on the ground after the takedown.

If you left a BJJ class and think it was only about takedowns, then you didn't learn d1ck.

The technique you don't study is the one that will beat you.

[Baqualin]

I couldn't put it better myself.
Wookie,
Interesting story. I think it ties into what JP just said. Sure, sprawling is an effective counter to the shoot but knees, downward elbows, and other techniques can also work. It really has to do with the fighters involved.

Hey Xia
You impress me more everyday. At our school some of us are working on how to avoid a total take down and if not sucessful, what to do on the way down to get in your pressure point strikes or breaks or whatever (helps your Baqua) to keep from getting killed once on the ground.
I've also seen first hand what JP described, regarding the ability of a really good grappler to avoid pressure point strikes, biting, eyepokes or anything else while humiliating upper level Blk belts. It's kinda funny, makes them stand back and scratch their head.:eek:
BQ

[Shaolin Wookie]

Found some interesting clips while d1cking around this afternoon after a little nap after work this morning. The Hakka forms have a lot of the same "essence" as our forms....just ours have more of a stereotypically northern footwork pattern, I think. Some of 'em aren't Hakka. Just related......thought SD guys might enjoy 'em. Haters 'll just laugh.....:rolleyes:

Reminds me, shorlty, of our 3 brown belt bird forms....you'll see why....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE1SEgpcRSs&mode=related&search=



Okay, some of the movements are a little different, but it has the same feel as our San He Chien, especially towards the end:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7cG_DKeZII&mode=related&search=

I've seen every one of these moves so far....before black belt.:D :cool: I'm thinking between White Monkey Steals the Peach, our short forms...china hands....just, mismatched/rehashed....same cadence, rhythm, essence, though....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfhExcU_ltc&NR

36 Seconds in...again that trademark bird (All 3 Shaolin birds) retreat into a broken leg stance....which I haven't really seen much in kung-fu except in these clips.....(addend: it appears in some Bak Mei forms in a less "flashy" fashion...only they don't seem to put the broken leg's heel flat to the floor [also in 1st/3rd crane]).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONezKWEvrBw&mode=related&search=

1:50 in.....a Chinese guy using Sai? Say it ain't so!!! :D Different form, some shared movements with SD's sai's, but many differences.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnA32dap4Lw&mode=related&search=

******!!! I posted the wrong link.....just another one of that bird/broken leg retreat.....think he's doing a mantis form...not really sure......Hakka forms kind of blend together after a while.....or maybe I just don't have the eye for it.

Well, I gotta go to class now....enough web fu this week.

[Baqualin]

Found some interesting clips while d1cking around this afternoon after a little nap after work this morning. The Hakka forms have a lot of the same "essence" as our forms....just ours have more of a stereotypically northern footwork pattern, I think. Some of 'em aren't Hakka. Just related......thought SD guys might enjoy 'em. Haters 'll just laugh.....:rolleyes:

Reminds me, shorlty, of our 3 brown belt bird forms....you'll see why....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE1SEgpcRSs&mode=related&search=



Okay, some of the movements are a little different, but it has the same feel as our San He Chien, especially towards the end:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7cG_DKeZII&mode=related&search=

I've seen every one of these moves so far....before black belt.:D :cool: I'm thinking between White Monkey Steals the Peach, our short forms...china hands....just, mismatched/rehashed....same cadence, rhythm, essence, though....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfhExcU_ltc&NR

36 Seconds in...again that trademark bird (All 3 Shaolin birds) retreat into a broken leg stance....which I haven't really seen much in kung-fu except in these clips.....(addend: it appears in some Bak Mei forms in a less "flashy" fashion...only they don't seem to put the broken leg's heel flat to the floor [also in 1st/3rd crane]).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONezKWEvrBw&mode=related&search=

1:50 in.....a Chinese guy using Sai? Say it ain't so!!! :D Different form, some shared movements with SD's sai's, but many differences.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnA32dap4Lw&mode=related&search=

******!!! I posted the wrong link.....just another one of that bird/broken leg retreat.....think he's doing a mantis form...not really sure......Hakka forms kind of blend together after a while.....or maybe I just don't have the eye for it.

Well, I gotta go to class now....enough web fu this week.

Welcome back!!!;)
BQ

[kwaichang]

So it seems those clips posted look more like Yoshukai Karate not kung fu so does that mean its real chinese Kung fu??? KC

[tattooedmonk]

So it seems those clips posted look more like Yoshukai Karate not kung fu so does that mean its real chinese Kung fu??? KC This is the thing that most people forget ........a great deal of kung fu is based on Taoist principles one of them being yin /yang.

Why people think that kung fu is only soft is beyond me .

It is something that is perpetuated and practiced and is out right wrong ...and one of the big reasons why kung fu guys get their @$$es handed to them .

As you can see this kung fu style is more hard than soft ( greater yang). And anyone who does SD can tell you we have the best of both worlds.:D

[kwaichang]

It was a joke the CMA clearly looks Karate ish. Thus my point as to why SD is real CMA despite what others say as to the way it looks KC

[The Xia]

Baqualin,
Glad my posts do something! :D
The point about grappling is important though. It's best to have a complete arsenal. In truth, TMA does have grappling. Throws and locks are in the forms but they need to be drilled for you to be able to apply them. Chin na can work if it's properly drilled. Techniques like the fu jow are great as well. Hell, it's a staple of many styles. The key is to drill it well and condition the hand to be able to deliver it. Here's another little nugget, the gripping strength you acquire from properly training your fu jow translates well into grappling. And there is nothing wrong with training in grappling arts like Judo, Shuai Jiao, BJJ, etc. Cross training is a great thing.
Shaolin Wookie,
You may be surprised to see sai in CMA, but it is a Chinese weapon as well. They're very Buddhist actually.
On the topic of Karate and Kung Fu, there are many similarities between styles from Southern China and Karate. Historically, there is a connection. There is a lot of interesting reading out there on that.

[Baqualin]

Baqualin,
Glad my posts do something! :D
The point about grappling is important though. It's best to have a complete arsenal. In truth, TMA does have grappling. Throws and locks are in the forms but they need to be drilled for you to be able to apply them. Chin na can work if it's properly drilled. Techniques like the fu jow are great as well. Hell, it's a staple of many styles. The key is to drill it well and condition the hand to be able to deliver it. Here's another little nugget, the gripping strength you acquire from properly training your fu jow translates well into grappling. And there is nothing wrong with training in grappling arts like Judo, Shuai Jiao, BJJ, etc. Cross training is a great thing.
Shaolin Wookie,
You may be surprised to see sai in CMA, but it is a Chinese weapon as well. They're very Buddhist actually.
On the topic of Karate and Kung Fu, there are many similarities between styles from Southern China and Karate. Historically, there is a connection. There is a lot of interesting reading out there on that.

You have said more in this one post than most people have all week

1) Most people don't realize what forms are for and what's contained in them...they need to look deeper.
2) Most people don't understand the proper training needed to use these tecniques.
3)Cross training is important in all styles...it's nice to have a base style like I have in SD, but one should compliment that with other styles like BJJ which has a totally different emphasis ...besides When I look at other styles sometimes It will open my eyes to an app. contained in our forms that I never noticed before. I believe it helped me to start my MA training with JUDO before moving on to SD....I wasn't surprised by ground fighters like most....I know what they can do!!!
4) The Sai......the reason Wookie brought this up is because we always catch sh!t for our sai forms not being CMA:eek:

Keep up the good post!!

[Royal Dragon]

So it seems those clips posted look more like Yoshukai Karate not kung fu so does that mean its real chinese Kung fu??? KC

Reply]
Those clips are showing Chinese Hakka styles. Most of it is Five Ancestor's Fist, but some appears to be some version of Southern Tai Tzu Quan and even White Crane as well. The reason it looks Karateish is because these styles are the Chinese roots of Okinawian Karate.

[tattooedmonk]

So it seems those clips posted look more like Yoshukai Karate not kung fu so does that mean its real chinese Kung fu??? KC

Reply]
Those clips are showing Chinese Hakka styles. Most of it is Five Ancestor's Fist, but some appears to be some version of Southern Tai Tzu Quan and even White Crane as well. The reason it looks Karateish is because these styles are the Chinese roots of Okinawian Karate. no $H!T???LMAO I think we all know this by now , and kc I knew you were joking!;)

[Baqualin]

no $H!T???LMAO I think we all know this by now , and kc I knew you were joking!;)

LMAO!!! TTM you gotta love the direction this is headed:D
BQ

[kwaichang]

We can see the direction all of these people who have tried to discredit SD due to the {karate type moves} yet those posted are karate like as well so maybe that is not real CMA either. Is that the direction you mean. KC:p

[tattooedmonk]

LMAO!!! TTM you gotta love the direction this is headed:D
BQ oh you know it.:D Hey a little side note......... I am in communications with the senior student of Lawrence Day . Interesting stuff he has to say. Do you know him or a man named Don Madden??He seems to know a little about Master Sin and Master Hiang and when they came to america . Most of it can be found on the net so ...you know...anyway just curious. you can pm me if you do not want to put it out here.

[Crushing Fist]

In regards to the Bird "retreat to broken leg"

Drop by Norcross on a Wednesday (8pm Brown Belt) and I'll show you my take on an application for that move. It's one of my favorites.

HINT: I don't do it as a retreat :)


I'm big on apps and I've read that you like to work on them, so consider me at your service.




On the topic of Yoshukai Karate, that was the first martial art I did when I was a kid. When I started SD the first thing I noticed was the similarity The Lo Han Short Forms had to it.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Takedowns are easy. I grab you and we fall down. BJJ is about positional awareness and dominance on the ground after the takedown.

If you left a BJJ class and think it was only about takedowns, then you didn't learn d1ck.

The technique you don't study is the one that will beat you.

It was a really highly touted school run by a Gracie top student. Most of the class was spent in the guard/mount....rolling I guess, cuz that's what they called it.

But in order to get to the ground with advantageous positioning, you had to know how to take someone down safely. You don't just charge in. If you hit the ground in a disadvantageous position....game over.

[Shaolin Wookie]

HINT: I don't do it as a retreat :) .

Neither do I. I've yet to get the fullbody mechanics into any application. But as for the fold up and unwinding of the hands.....it's an excellent way to clear the line. But it's in plenty of our forms....tiger comes to mind....china hands...

If you're going to be in Marietta for the leopard....maybe you could show me then. Don't know if I'll be in Norcross before the 9th. Then again, who knows? Might just up and come out (I'm trying to get some new perspectives anyways, and I love those 3 birds):cool: But the SPM school I'm checking into will have me booked on Wednesdays.

The purpose of the clips wasn't really to start up some SD/CMA crap. I knew it would do that a little. I just thought SD guys might be interested in seeing their movements in other Southern CMA's. Laugh, laugh: and after seeing some Hakka stuff, and some SPM, I found it laughable to call SD "mechanical".

Nothing wrong with being more "mechanical". SPM's one-inch power is really quite cool, and well, powerful. From an outside view, the forms look kind of ugly....in a purely aesthetic sense. I think so, anyways. They're about as far from Wushu/stereotypical shaolin as anything I've seen. No spinning kicks, outside inside smashes, or anything like that. I think the fanciest movement I saw in their staff work was a la-na-cha.....:D They even appear harder than most karate. But their understanding of economical fighting---that's the part where the beauty is...kind of like Wing Chun. Not a lot of wasted action. Simple footwork, small motions, quick results........but with some really cool mantis influence. Centerline theory....I've always found it intriguing. Hakka has a unique insight.

P.S. in the link to the slideshow (Tai Tzu Ancestral Fist)......dude wears a gi....hahahhaha......

[tattooedmonk]

and another thing... I found a web site that has these, what appears to be self proclaimed " Grandmasters" ,who are ex SD BBs who have created their own system with a bunch of high level karate guys. do any of you easterners:D know anything about this or them???

[BM2]

The bjj school that I roll with is taught by a former #2 in the state H.S. wrestler. Also teaching is a former Div I NCAA wrestler and Brown belt in Judo who also has had 10 fights in the cage\ring. The take downs used are wrestling and judo. Also there are about 10 guys who fight in the cage/ring. They practice take downs from strikes/kicks as well.
So what you will about them, ego is not there. I thought it was from all the belts having to roll with each other e.g. purple,blue,green and white belts. No one sits on their rank wanting to be treated as a Prima Donna . They are trying to get each other better. I think it is most likely the best school in the state.
I like SD too. I like it better. With everything, it is the person in it that is teaching which makes the difference.

[kwaichang]

Hey CF who was your Yoshukai Teacher ? KC