Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[brucereiter]

This doesn't happen with us. We have a pre-test. If you can't pass your pre-test with flying colors, you save your $$ until you're ready, and go practice.

this is how it is done in atl also ... the pre test/evaluation is the real test ...

not to say that we dont have a bit of this problem also though :eek:

[MasterKiller]

Just a question or two for the hard core Shaolin-Do guys out there:

To start with I have no problem with the art itself and could really care less about the lineage. That said I draw the line at what I saw in a recent brown belt test.

There were two guys who were going from 3rd brown to 2nd brown. When they were taking the test it became obvious that they simply did not know the material. They could not get through any form they had to preform and during the preformance the Master had to coach them through the various moves to just get them to the end.

These two guys passed the test and were promoted to 2nd degree Brown Belt. I could not believe it. I'm wondering what value any belt has if you cannot fail a test for it.

I guess my questions for long timers out there are "Do you think this is right?" and "Do all Shaolin-Do schools do this?"


Did Sin The' promote these guys or their instructor?

[Flaca]

This doesn't happen with us. We have a pre-test. If you can't pass your pre-test with flying colors, you save your $$ until you're ready, and go practice.this is how it is done in atl also ... the pre test/evaluation is the real test ...

not to say that we dont have a bit of this problem also though :eek:

There are those who pre-test well, which is required at my school prior to testing for GMT, but who then 'freeze' in front of GMT. I've seen folks fail the pre-test, and rightly so. The pre-test is far more rigorous than the actual test. We're required to test on all our material up to level on the pre-test, which is gruelling. GMT only tests on the current material, plus a possible kata or 2 of his choice.

I'm approaching my 2nd BB test, and my current material alone takes 30 minutes to go through. For the pre-test, it'll take maybe 45 minutes on top of that to do the up-to-black material. :eek: :eek:

[Baqualin]

Just a question or two for the hard core Shaolin-Do guys out there:

To start with I have no problem with the art itself and could really care less about the lineage. That said I draw the line at what I saw in a recent brown belt test.

There were two guys who were going from 3rd brown to 2nd brown. When they were taking the test it became obvious that they simply did not know the material. They could not get through any form they had to preform and during the preformance the Master had to coach them through the various moves to just get them to the end.

These two guys passed the test and were promoted to 2nd degree Brown Belt. I could not believe it. I'm wondering what value any belt has if you cannot fail a test for it.

I guess my questions for long timers out there are "Do you think this is right?" and "Do all Shaolin-Do schools do this?"

NO THEY DON'T & NO IT'S NOT RIGHT:mad: It's things like this that caused the split between east & west. We like most, pretest......if you don't pass it then you wait till next time....period. The're Masters & students in our system who don't deserve the ranking & I don't care if they get mad for me saying this....it's the truth!!! It doesn't take a brain surgeon to see if someone $UCK$

Also FYI the head instructor at our school could care less about the money...only the art!!!

[kungfujunky]

i know and have trained with both guys you are attacking publicly boulder dawg.

they both passed their pretests but nerves do funny things to people

the pretest is the main test. if they do not pass that they dont test. the masters account for nerves. they have been around more tests than any of us in csc.

i think you are being a little harsh on this personally. those guys work every day at their material. its just hard for them. they get nervous.

not one person on that test did an even passing job if you grade to the extreme.


everyone had baubles and mess ups.

in my opinion unless you know the people and have trained with them then keep your judgements to yourself. because you dont know what they can do when they are in their comfort zone.

[kungfujunky]

NO THEY DON'T & NO IT'S NOT RIGHT:mad: It's things like this that caused the split between east & west. We like most, pretest......if you don't pass it then you wait till next time....period. The're Masters & students in our system who don't deserve the ranking & I don't care if they get mad for me saying this....it's the truth!!! It doesn't take a brain surgeon to see if someone $UCK$

Also FYI the head instructor at our school could care less about the money...only the art!!!



ah bq i think that is an unfair statement my friend.

i know gmt and have sat on his panels. i have seen him pass people that have had bad tests.

but when you start to get up in ranks in black belt he will fail you. as will the masters. ive seen a pretest for upper blacks that master david told one person he needed to wait until next year and work on his material more.

so dont take just one account of a test without knowing a bit more about the facts. yes they did poorly on the birds....but they both got through lien wu chang on their own and that is a much longer and technical form.

honestly this sort of thing should not be on a public forum.

if you had issue with it boulderdawg both the masters were there for your benefit. why didnt you ask them?

[brucereiter]

i know and have trained with both guys you are attacking publicly boulder dawg.

they both passed their pretests but nerves do funny things to people

the pretest is the main test. if they do not pass that they dont test. the masters account for nerves. they have been around more tests than any of us in csc.

i think you are being a little harsh on this personally. those guys work every day at their material. its just hard for them. they get nervous.

not one person on that test did an even passing job if you grade to the extreme.


everyone had baubles and mess ups.

in my opinion unless you know the people and have trained with them then keep your judgements to yourself. because you dont know what they can do when they are in their comfort zone.

i would also add that the test are about your own personal improvement. the way i look at it is i try to remember how the person was when they walked into the school the first time even if the "suck" there should be some improvement each time they test. it is not about how someone looks next to the other people testing but about how they are compaired to how they used to be ...

[Yao Sing]

in my opinion unless you know the people and have trained with them then keep your judgements to yourself. because you dont know what they can do when they are in their comfort zone.

Isn't that part of the test? Who gets into fights when they're in their 'comfort zone'?

A big part of testing should be how you function under pressure.

[tattooedmonk]

nerves?????? if you can not do it when the pressure is on for a test then how are you going to use it as a form of self defense???

you will get your A$$ handed to you if you do not know the material on all levels..

it needs to be hard wired into your body, spirit, and mind even at the white to yellow belt level.

yes it is about the money and yes it is about not alienating anyone but at what point do you say I am not going to compromise the integrity of the art just for these reasons??

if you do not do well on your test you do not pass ...period!!!

And I do not care how well a person does in class. it is not a reflection of how they will handle and/ or conduct themselves on the street.

you should not have to think about it .

if you do then you do not know it ........you only remember it. and remembering it does not get it done.

I know a lot of you guys are politically correct and all but give me a break.

I believe that there are too many compromises in certain areas that should not be. it devalues the integrity of the art, it's masters, and students.

I know that some of you might not like it but the truth is the truth and that is all that matters to me.

is it a martial arts program or a knitting class???:

Martial arts....... what is your definition of martial arts???

would you send and untrained or inadequate soldier out into the battlefield just because you did not want to hurt his/ her feelings??

come on now...

I believe many of you need to reevaluate as to what it is and why it is you are
in the martial arts if it is not for the desired effect, to be able to defend yourself in mind ( psychologically), spirit ( philosophically) , and body ( physically).

It is not martial arts unless you can use it in self defense or in a fight.

....otherwise it is just exercise/ performance art.

[kungfujunky]

a fight and performing forms are 2 way different things my friend

in their sparring both individuals did just fine

[tattooedmonk]

a fight and performing forms are 2 way different things my friend

in their sparring both individuals did just fineSO??? by that time they had a chance to loosen up and prepare. why should it be different???:D

[Flaca]

nerves?????? if you can not do it when the pressure is on for a test then how are you going to use it as a form of self defense???

And I do not care how well a person does in class. it is not a reflection of how they will handle and/ or conduct themselves on the street.

It is not martial arts unless you can use it in self defense or in a fight.

....otherwise it is just exercise/ performance art.

The same could be said for testing. Testing nerves are completely different from fighting intensity. Have you ever stuttered, been at a loss for words? That's comparable to testing nerves. That doesn't mean you wouldn't be able to defend yourself. It's unrelated to political correctness or girly arts.

One of the best martial artists I know got stuck twice on Hua fist in a tournament. It could have happened in a test. Does this make him less of a martial artist? No. Does this make him a wuss in a fight? He!! No. He's downright scary.

Sounds like you're someone who doesn't get severe nerve attacks and can safely put down anyone who does.

[tattooedmonk]

Isn't that part of the test? Who gets into fights when they're in their 'comfort zone'?

A big part of testing should be how you function under pressure. I agree!!!!!

[tattooedmonk]

Happy Holidays everyone! From the Sagascious Lu Da

[kwaichang]

Few have fight anxiety but many have test anxiety it has nothing to do with ability or knowledge level KC

[tattooedmonk]

The same could be said for testing. Testing nerves are completely different from fighting intensity. Have you ever stuttered, been at a loss for words? That's comparable to testing nerves. That doesn't mean you wouldn't be able to defend yourself. It's unrelated to political correctness or girly arts.

One of the best martial artists I know, 4th BB, got stuck twice on Hua fist in a tournament. It could have happened in a test. Does this make him less of a martial artist? No. Does this make him a wuss in a fight? He!! No. He's downright scary.

Sounds like you're someone who doesn't get severe nerve attacks and can safely put down anyone who does.this is my point ...if it happens in a test or in a performance it is because you are thinking about it.you should not have to think about it, if you do on the streets, you could be dead.

and yes this does mean that you might not be able to defend yourself in a fight.

this momentary freeze can cost you your life.

you ever heard of fight or flight response??

this is an area of training that I believe is lacking in many so called traditional schools

testing your nerves( this is part of the over all test) at such a low level intensity should not cause you to freeze up .

imagine if the intensity was higher and this happened. it can happen to everyone and probably has but this is why we train .......so this does not happen .

[tattooedmonk]

Few have fight anxiety but many have test anxiety it has nothing to do with ability or knowledge level KC most have fight anxiety . sparring is not the same .especially the way it is mostly done below BB ( tag). this should be part of test and in my opinion is. remembering something and knowing it are 2 different things.

[kungfujunky]

in a real fight people are not going to be using the new application from hua fist they just learned. they will be using there basics to survive. which in 99% of the fights will more than adequately suffice.

monk you have a very inflated idea of martial arts of today. we all train to learn and to be able to defend ourselves. (most anyways)

but you condemn us for not training to be able to pick up our dao and cut off an intruders head when he breaks into our home....

dude relax.

not everyone thinks the way you do and your philosophy towards training is extreme to say the least (at least your online philosophy...not sure how you train in real life)

if any martial artist were to get in a fight and happened to hurt the opponent bad guess what...we the martial artists go to jail.

there are a few instances where this wouldnt happen but for the most part thats how it is.

we train so we dont have to fight

a palm strike to the chest with power says just as much to an attacker as kicking them in the head.

we are not supposed to use our training to fight. we are supposed to use it to not fight.

[Baqualin]

OK
KFJ...your right about this, it should be discussed in private instead of on a public forum. But it wasn't, so I expressed my opinion and stick with it. I wasn't saying someone has to perform their material like a world champion....making a few mistakes is one thing, but someone at the Brown belt level should at the least know the material their testing on...nervous or not. Nobody needs to rush their rank....Shaolin-Do is not about rank, it's a lifestyle...testing is a gauge to where your at...if your to nervous to pass your test, then you are not comfortable enough with your material to overcome that. You need to step back and work on your material till it becomes 2nd nature or just be a form hog. This should have been noticed in the preTest.

[Baqualin]

Isn't that part of the test? Who gets into fights when they're in their 'comfort zone'?

A big part of testing should be how you function under pressure.

I agree
The later especially.....functioning under pressure...not just about fighting,
life in general....is this not part of GMS training.

KFJ by the way I'm not upset with you, I've just seen alot of this down thru the years, not just one incident and I get frustrated sometimes. The problem here is none of us were there to see the pretest or the regular test. I have to agree with JP this is why it's hard to find true SD performances anymore.:o

[Baqualin]

I think this is a problem now. When I first started, they would have had the opportunity to stop, collect themselves, and re-start the test in a few moments to see if it was just nerves etc. Then if they still had the problem, they would have failed and tested the next time GMT was in (back then GMT came to our little school every three months). I think this problem is because of $$ and the fear of alienating a student. The by-product is that now there's so many lackluster students out there that its hard to find any good examples of SD anymore.

I agree again This is why when Flying Monkey see's what's available he says it's not kungfu & he's right. He's not talking about our forms in general but how it's performed.

[Baqualin]

a palm strike to the chest with power says just as much to an attacker as kicking them in the head.

As an internal practictioner I had rather be kicked in the head:D

[Baqualin]

Happy Holidays everyone! From the Sagascious Lu Da

THANKS
And the same to you!!!

[kwaichang]

Many of you guage a martial artists ability by how well they fight, that is why I said that about "fight anxiety". However test anxiety is very real , I have known those who can perform their "stuff" forward and backward but still have difficulty with testing. Should they fail ?? and should those with ego judge them and say they arent any good. Many can fight but lose in tournaments so I guess they cant fight. If I use your views then , they cant fight or shouldnt pass because they cant do Hua well or test poorly. I feel testing is a poor method to "test" the level of a martial artist. To some it is a way to make money to others it is a way of tearing down the ego. Both reasons are flawed.

Do not judge the level of a person by how poorly they test. KC :cool:

[kwaichang]

Hey TTM when I was in another system my test for 2 BB was to do my Katas and "spar" 2 people at the same time . One thing though they were told to try and break my nose now that was "tag" your it anxiety. Was a good test. KC

[KungFu Student]

This is how I think my Master looks at testing, I could be wrong, but it is how it seems to me, and I think it works. For adults, white through green, if you can get through the material without major mistakes, then that indicates to him that you are able to continue to work on the material you have on your own, and can move on to learn something new. He does not coach anyone during the test, and if you screw up really badly, he tells you what you need to work on and gives you a week before he allows you to test again. Third through first brown he holds to a somewhat higher standard, allows fewer mistakes but it is similiar to what happens with the lower belts. Now with black belts, he does not cut them any slack. They must pre-test first, and if they don't have it, then they have to keep working at it.
I realize that everyone has a different level of compentence with MA, and some are better at it then others, I do not believe that a person that is conducting a test should have to coach the students through it. If they don't know the material, then it is too soon for them to move on. If they know it, even if they have to struggle, or make minor mistakes, then I have no problem with them advancing, knowing that they will still be going over previous material at some point during subsequent classes.

[Baqualin]

Many of you guage a martial artists ability by how well they fight, that is why I said that about "fight anxiety". However test anxiety is very real , I have known those who can perform their "stuff" forward and backward but still have difficulty with testing. Should they fail ?? and should those with ego judge them and say they arent any good. Many can fight but lose in tournaments so I guess they cant fight. If I use your views then , they cant fight or shouldnt pass because they cant do Hua well or test poorly. I feel testing is a poor method to "test" the level of a martial artist. To some it is a way to make money to others it is a way of tearing down the ego. Both reasons are flawed.

Do not judge the level of a person by how poorly they test. KC :cool:

It's not about level...it's about where you are in your studies, just like in any education...if someone cannot multiply very well they will have a hard time moving on to division. If they cannot carry one basket wouldn't it be unfair to try and make them carry two. The problem here is none of us were there....did they perform poorly or leave out a major portion of the form....there's a difference.
AS was stated by SDS the FIRST time you test on a particular form they just want to see if you can do the moves.....as you test later they want to see an improvement in how you do the form....to make sure your on the road to understanding applications, power generation and biomechanics.

I personally have not seen ego problems at the testing I've participated in and regarding the money thing it would make sense to pass everyone regardless.....more weapons to sell and higher test fees with higher rank.

Knowing you I'd say no one could be as hard on you as you are on yourself and when you test for 5th you will be very nervous and pass with flying colors.

Sometimes your just to nice....please don't change:D
BQ

[kungfujunky]

a palm strike to the chest with power says just as much to an attacker as kicking them in the head.

As an internal practictioner I had rather be kicked in the head:D



lol i knew youd like that one

and no worries my man. i didnt take it persoanl at all

[kwaichang]

The ego is not those who are testing the students but on those observing the testing. That is the gauge by which many judge. Like driving down the road and seeing a runner struggling. Some might think: that poor guy cant run very well I think man he must have run a long way. KC

[Baqualin]

The ego is not those who are testing the students but on those observing the testing. That is the gauge by which many judge. Like driving down the road and seeing a runner struggling. Some might think: that poor guy cant run very well I think man he must have run a long way. KC

Now that, I've seen alot of!:eek:
But I've also seen those same guys get their $h!t handed to them down the road...we have a few ego beaters hanging around:cool:

I guess I really I'm a moderate....if I saw the same dude running I'd probally think, either that guy is bad out of shape or he's been running for 5 days:D

[BoulderDawg]

i know and have trained with both guys you are attacking publicly boulder dawg.

they both passed their pretests but nerves do funny things to people

the pretest is the main test. if they do not pass that they dont test. the masters account for nerves. they have been around more tests than any of us in csc.

i think you are being a little harsh on this personally. those guys work every day at their material. its just hard for them. they get nervous.

not one person on that test did an even passing job if you grade to the extreme.


everyone had baubles and mess ups.

in my opinion unless you know the people and have trained with them then keep your judgements to yourself. because you dont know what they can do when they are in their comfort zone.

I'm not attacking anyone. I'm just stating what I saw. Had I of sat on that panel I could not have passed these guys....and maybe because of what I saw I will be rather leary of sitting on any in the future.

I just don't think it's fair for people who work their butts off for these belts....and, in reality, is it fair to the people who did poorly on the test to just be passed through the system?

Maybe I am being too harsh but I want to be proud of the art.

[kwaichang]

BD Isnt it enough to know you did the best YOU could. Why do you worry about others.

Lets assume that you have to do a form with the side splits in it and lets assume you need that form for that rank should you be held back because you cant do them ? Or how about doing an arial ?? There are those in 3rd to 4th BB in SD if you cant do one should you not pass ??
I feel those that do test should be graded on where they were when they last tested and if they have improved. There are those that "aint pretty" but try very very hard, I would rather pass them than those that can do the forms perfect but have no heart or love for Shaolin Do . Let those without sin cast the first stone. KC :D

[BoulderDawg]

It's not so much that someone "can't" do the form. I believe maximum effort should be rewarded. What I saw spoke more to a lack of preparation than an inability to do some aspect of the form.

Isn't Kung Fu mastery through time and effort? I guess this was my major sticking point here.

Anyway it's my understand that some schools do not charge for testing. Now the money is not really going to break many people however I think less pressure would be there for all parties involved if you did not pay for your test.

[kwaichang]

I agree BD but who are we to judge if someone has prepared or not ? I think that testing is a bit archaeic but that is my opinion only I think. Well maybe the talk of these people will get back to them and they will try harder next time .
Have you ever heard of Wolfs law as it pertains to Contractile tissues. In a nut shell " tissues will respond to the level of stress placed upon them" thus Muscle growth from weight training. Maybe the pressure from peers is like wolfs law and they will come around. KC

[kungfujunky]

It's not so much that someone "can't" do the form. I believe maximum effort should be rewarded. What I saw spoke more to a lack of preparation than an inability to do some aspect of the form.

Isn't Kung Fu mastery through time and effort? I guess this was my major sticking point here.

Anyway it's my understand that some schools do not charge for testing. Now the money is not really going to break many people however I think less pressure would be there for all parties involved if you did not pay for your test.



i agree.

and i know for a fact those guys had spent every waking moment in the school trying their best to get it down.

they really did apply maximum effort for what they could do.

not everyone, like kc said, can do forms to wow and awe.

what about the girl who nailed the kwan dao only to blank at the very last move? should she have failed? even though 98% of the form was done with spirit and focus and intensity?

[Lamassu]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the thread but I've been following it for a couple of months now... very entertaining. I just want to throw in my two cents about the whole testing thing now that I actually have an opinion on a topic being covered.

I've been practicing Shaolin-Do kung fu for over 5 years now, and my attitude whenever I tested had been that this was my chance to shine; to show off, and whenever I felt I wasn't ready to test then I would inform my sifu and I would be tested a later time. I think the reason why so many students seem unprepaired and nervous is because they're not ready to test yet, but feel pressured to do so. It's like they're afraid to be ostracized by their fellow students if they stay behind a belt level, kinda like grade school. But this isn't the focus of the kwoon; nor should it ever be. Students are attracted to our school like any other martial art schools: to learn and better themselves and they should realize the only person they're competing with as far as learning new material and progressing to higher belt ranks is with themselves. So what if your buddy that you joined SD is a belt level or two higher, that doesn't mean he's better than you or that your a lousy student. It just means you need more time to grasp the forms and know them intimately enough to progress to more complex ones. So should students fail testing if their forms aren't up to snuff? Absolutely, but it should never get that far. The sifu as well as the student should know well before the actual test if he/she is ready to and it's up to the student once testing has been scheduled, to practice consistently and step up the intensity to insure they not only pass, but more importantly know the material. After all, that is what you're paying for.

[brucereiter]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the thread but I've been following it for a couple of months now... very entertaining. I just want to throw in my two cents about the whole testing thing now that I actually have an opinion on a topic being covered.

I've been practicing Shaolin-Do kung fu for over 5 years now, and my attitude whenever I tested had been that this was my chance to shine; to show off, and whenever I felt I wasn't ready to test then I would inform my sifu and I would be tested a later time. I think the reason why so many students seem unprepaired and nervous is because they're not ready to test yet, but feel pressured to do so. It's like they're afraid to be ostracized by their fellow students if they stay behind a belt level, kinda like grade school. But this isn't the focus of the kwoon; nor should it ever be. Students are attracted to our school like any other martial art schools: to learn and better themselves and they should realize the only person they're competing with as far as learning new material and progressing to higher belt ranks is with themselves. So what if your buddy that you joined SD is a belt level or two higher, that doesn't mean he's better than you or that your a lousy student. It just means you need more time to grasp the forms and know them intimately enough to progress to more complex ones. So should students fail testing if their forms aren't up to snuff? Absolutely, but it should never get that far. The sifu as well as the student should know well before the actual test if he/she is ready to and it's up to the student once testing has been scheduled, to practice consistently and step up the intensity to insure they not only pass, but more importantly know the material. After all, that is what you're paying for.

you have a good outlook. keep up the practice and enjoy.

[BentMonk]

Well said Lamassu. I too see a rank advancement test as a chance to demonstrate my knowledge and skill at that point in my training. IMO MA study is a mostly personal journey, and the truest competition is with one's self. One of my goals in MA training was to become a black belt. I've done that. Now my goal is to continue perfecting that knowledge. I am no longer concerned with rank. It is not what rank you hold, or how many forms you can remember, it is how well you understand and apply what you know. JMO. Peace. :)

[Baqualin]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the thread but I've been following it for a couple of months now... very entertaining. I just want to throw in my two cents about the whole testing thing now that I actually have an opinion on a topic being covered.

I've been practicing Shaolin-Do kung fu for over 5 years now, and my attitude whenever I tested had been that this was my chance to shine; to show off, and whenever I felt I wasn't ready to test then I would inform my sifu and I would be tested a later time. I think the reason why so many students seem unprepaired and nervous is because they're not ready to test yet, but feel pressured to do so. It's like they're afraid to be ostracized by their fellow students if they stay behind a belt level, kinda like grade school. But this isn't the focus of the kwoon; nor should it ever be. Students are attracted to our school like any other martial art schools: to learn and better themselves and they should realize the only person they're competing with as far as learning new material and progressing to higher belt ranks is with themselves. So what if your buddy that you joined SD is a belt level or two higher, that doesn't mean he's better than you or that your a lousy student. It just means you need more time to grasp the forms and know them intimately enough to progress to more complex ones. So should students fail testing if their forms aren't up to snuff? Absolutely, but it should never get that far. The sifu as well as the student should know well before the actual test if he/she is ready to and it's up to the student once testing has been scheduled, to practice consistently and step up the intensity to insure they not only pass, but more importantly know the material. After all, that is what you're paying for.

You've spent your 5 years well:)
BQ

[Lamassu]

Thanks. It feels good to 'talk' with other SDer's again. I moved up to Chicago from Austin last year and I miss the friendly atmosphere at the North Austin kwoon and especially the San Marcos kwoon. I never realized how good I had it in central Texas until I moved into a state with no SD kwoon whatsoever. The nearest one is in Indiana, but my work schedule doesn't really give me time to travel. No classmates, no sifu or master to guide you, it's a lot harder to keep up with your material without the usual trappings of a martial art school. At least Master Schaefer gave me the go ahead to open one up here in Illinois. :D In the mean time I'm practicing my forms wherever and whenever I can.

Can you imagine all the weird looks you get when practicing your kung fu in a public park?

[kwaichang]

Lamassu I think I know you PM me KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Alright...I'm constantly having to spar higher ranking black belts at my school. I can hold my own on the defensive, because I'm good at protecting my line. It's really easy to turn a defensive stance into an offensive maneuver. For me, however, it's a lot harder to take the offensive/attacker position straight from the start. Now, I know I'm pretty much screwed when it comes to attacking certain ranks, but I compete hard, and am extremely good at stepping and dodging (i.e. footwork). My opening moves are generally feints, which allow me to mix up the attacker/defender personas two opponents generally take.

I'm kind of aggressive in a way. I'm not all hyped up and spastic, like some guys. I'm really cool and collected, but I go straight in, looking for any open head shots or opportunities for chin-na/sweeps to get the fight over with ASAP. Problem is, every higher ranking student takes a defensive position and awaits an attack. This leaves me at a disadvantage. I always have to open the match. I'm not expecting to go in and whoop a third/fourth degree, but it'd be nice to keep from getting whooped right off the bat. My opening movements always seem to leave me too open. Anyone have any solid tips for how to open a fight? (I do internal/external [same thing in my opinion] so I'm open to tips from both sides.) And please don't recommend a kick to open--that doesn't work for me, and I don't think that I ever want it to---I'm really not into kicks unless they're in the middle of a combo, aiming for the stomach/lower ribs.

Thanks....

[brucereiter]

Alright...I'm constantly having to spar higher ranking black belts at my school. I can hold my own on the defensive, because I'm good at protecting my line. It's really easy to turn a defensive stance into an offensive maneuver. For me, however, it's a lot harder to take the offensive/attacker position straight from the start. Now, I know I'm pretty much screwed when it comes to attacking certain ranks, but I compete hard, and am extremely good at stepping and dodging (i.e. footwork). My opening moves are generally feints, which allow me to mix up the attacker/defender personas two opponents generally take.

I'm kind of aggressive in a way. I'm not all hyped up and spastic, like some guys. I'm really cool and collected, but I go straight in, looking for any open head shots or opportunities for chin-na/sweeps to get the fight over with ASAP. Problem is, every higher ranking student takes a defensive position and awaits an attack. This leaves me at a disadvantage. I always have to open the match. I'm not expecting to go in and whoop a third/fourth degree, but it'd be nice to keep from getting whooped right off the bat. My opening movements always seem to leave me too open. Anyone have any solid tips for how to open a fight? (I do internal/external [same thing in my opinion] so I'm open to tips from both sides.) And please don't recommend a kick to open--that doesn't work for me, and I don't think that I ever want it to---I'm really not into kicks unless they're in the middle of a combo, aiming for the stomach/lower ribs.

Thanks....

hi there ...

try to put yourself in what appears to be a bad position by throwing a punch stepping in or what ever you can do that will cause a certain reaction from your training partner. this might cause them to "do" something and then you will have your chance to take advantage. lead them into your idea instead of letting them lead you into theirs.

another thing to try is to cause them to pay attention to one thing while you do another ...

keep up the hard work.

best,

b

[John Many Jars]

Are the feints not working for you or are you just looking to add more to your repertoire? If they aren't working maybe you're not selling them well enough. Or maybe you're becoming too predictable? =/ Have you tried occasionally striking with the technique you're feinting? What's that saying in poker? You can't bluff if you've never had a winning hand? Something like that. Just a thought.

Try to keep the pressure on your opponent. If you're not doing it already, throw multiple sets of combinations/ techniques every time you move in to attack.

Since you're good at "stepping and dodging" have you tried adapting your attacking techniques to include moving around your opponent. I get a lot of my applications from the 3 birds and with the exception of a few direction changes theyseem like pretty linear forms....to me anyway. But even something as simple as a hook/elbow/chop from Lo Tien (sp?) can add a new demention to your game. What if instead of just raising your knee up to protect the groin and body for the "hook/elbow", then step forward for the chop, you step forward and swing your rear leg out 90 degrees. Now all of a sudden your sqared up to either his side or back which could set you up for your next attack. I realize everything I'm saying is pretty elementary but it's really just a segue to my next point...variation.

Decide on an opening attack and come up with multiple variations of it from the same starting position. That way you become more unpredictable to your sparring partner.

I have one other note. My personal experience w/ feints is that the harder the level of contact I go the more effective my feints have become. I think there's something about wanting to avoid getting hit in the head that makes people over-commit w/ their blocking.


Disclaimer. This only pertains to my personal experience w/ sparring. I really have no idea if any of it would work in a real fight. Though a guy I practice w/ occasionally like to really go at it. ;)

[Baqualin]

Just wanted to wish everyone including trolls a MERRY CHRISTMAS & A HAPPY NEW YEAR OR HAPPY HOLIDAYS OR WHAT EVER YOUR INTO.....PEACE TO ALL:)

[brucereiter]

Just wanted to wish everyone including trolls a MERRY CHRISTMAS & A HAPPY NEW YEAR OR HAPPY HOLIDAYS OR WHAT EVER YOUR INTO.....PEACE TO ALL:)

peace too you and yours too ... merry christmas!

[ShaolinGirl]

You ever see a 79-year-old that had naturally dark hair?
My Korean grandmother was in her 80's and her hair was black. And there's no way she ever dyed her hair.

[Judge Pen]

I don't believe in "feints" in the traditional sense. Every technique and combonation should be thrown so that each technique is intended to land with maximum force; however, you should maintain proper balance and body control so that you can modify a technique midstream into a better technique for the circumstance that your opponent is presenting. Often times I throw a straight punch just to change it into a hook at the last opportunity or a punch is quickly withdrawn into a block so that me second hand in the combonation takes lead. But I always throw the first punch with full intent. Ok, I always *try* to anyway...

[BM2]

My Korean grandmother was in her 80's and her hair was black. And there's no way she ever dyed her hair.


I read that those of Celtic heritage also go grey later as did former President Ronald Reagan.
My Great Uncle was mostly German and retained his black hair, all of it and his teeth into his eighties. On top of that, he was an alocholic, spent time in prison for killing a man in a bar fight over some woman, in the 1920s till somtime in the '30s when prison wasn't as nice as it is now. And never married. Hmmm.... I wonder how much of the later had an influence on how he aged.;)

[Shaolin Wookie]

My favorite technique to open with is the reverse punch/front snap kick (left hand, right foot) combination so prevalent in the short forms and China Hands....or hell, the sparring tech #5, I guess. Sometimes I'll throw the kick, sometimes I'll keep it chambered for a knee trap in case the opponent thinks he can shoot a kick into an opening. Anyway, the threat of the kick is enough to throw a lot of people off guard (they've got to contend with two weapons). These work okay, because I have a lot of options once these attacks have landed (thanks to the short forms/china hands)...

But they're not really that successful against experienced fighters. Like I said...I've got to play it aggressive b/c I'm the attacker (I do like playing that role---I just don't want to become 1-dimensional in my press). The highest martial artists in my school just love to sit back and wait, and I'm not sure I want to have them on the attacking tip....they're just too good.

I'm really just trying to get a pool of ideas I can play around with in order to be a better attacker. My defense is fine. And yeah, I know they're the same thing, ultimately. But real skill comes with time and experience. I guess I'm just asking for tips from experience.

[Lamassu]

Oh I do love sparring!

Sparring is a learning experience, it's your chance to put what you learned in the context of a particular form to practice. Now some things work for some people but not for all. Me, when I spar I decide ahead of time which particular form or animal set I'll incorporate in my strategy, in order to discover the practical applications. This opens me up for receiving hits at times while I'm learning how best to use this particular form, but at least it's in a friendly environment where nothings really at stake except my pride. And since, this is a learning experience, you can ask your sparring partner to slow down a bit while you figure things out. I know this doesn't sound very appealing or macho, but I feel its vital as a learning tool so that what you learn in forms can be used in combat. I've seen too many matches where the two squaring off are upper belt levels that have a lot of different techniques under their belt, but they stick to sparring techniques, or (sometimes...maybe) short forms. What's the point of learning these forms if you're not going to use them? Also, sparring is not fighting, you can't do certain things in sparring that you can do in a real street fight. Your sifu will frown on you breaking your partner's kneecap, but in a real fight that's one of the first targets I go for. Anyway, the bottom line is there is a progression of development in your study of martial arts:

1. learn the form
2. experiment different techniques while sparring (learn first hand their practicality)
3. pick and choose the techniques you like and use in sparring
4. continue to experiment; try to use less favorable techniques to understand them better
5. incorporate more that you learned from past sparring techniques, until you have a wide range you can pick and choose on the fly while sparring.

Repeat this cycle until you have experimented with all that you've learned, the reason why black belts seem so good is because this is how we learn and strive to get better. Remember, when a black belt challenges you in a sparring match, don't look at it as a test or something personal. They're simply interested in how you progress, and if you implement this form of learning in your sparring, then they'll show an interest and even give you the tips and tricks that you're looking for.

Happy sparring!

[BentMonk]

Sparring is a great way to learn. I also think that doing traditional no head contact, medium to heavy body contact "tag" sparring breeds bad habits. It's one thing to acknowledge a shot to your head, it's completely different to take a shot to your head. I'm not saying every sparring match should be full contact. Healing interferes with training. I am saying that learning to be hit should be part of your training. As Muhammad Ali said, "Every body's got a plan, 'til they get hit."

[Lamassu]

full contact sparring is effective, with the proper equipment and between two sparring partners that are familiar with each others technique so as no accidental injuries occur, but keep in mind that sparring is not fighting. Sparring tests reflexes and quick thinking, fighting is pure self preservation. Now getting knocked in the head hurts and people react to it, but keep in mind that punch or kick that makes it through your opponent's defenses, usually leads to a string of attacks or combo's inherint within whatever form you're utilizing, which students rarely follow through with because that initial 'hit' didn't actually affect their opponent, it just breached his/her defenses. This is because the students are sparring; not fighting. In a fight, once that first hit gets through, you shouldn't let up until your opponent is on the ground and doesn't feel like fighting anymore. Whereas, with sparring, if your partner asks you to back off, then you do it, because you're both in a learning environment and not really trying to kill each other (hopefully). Pain is a major factor in fighting of course, and there are methods within the SD system that toughen the body to withstand pummeling, but sparring is not, nor should it ever be, where you learn to take a hit. This could lead to serious injury and worse, litigation.

[BentMonk]

There are different types of sparring. IMO the one that is the most neglected in MA is sparring with hard to mostly full contact. The way boxers spar is the best example. Protection is worn, but you can get knocked out while sparring. This type of sparring enables you to become accustomed to the shock of being hit. It also teaches you self control. IMO the ability to withstand a shot, and keep your focus are two elements that are essential to surviving a fight. The reality is that I have a much greater likelihood of testing my abilities in the ring than I do getting into a fight. I don't go to bars, I don't frequent rough neighborhoods, I keep my mouth shut, and I don't mess with people. I am fairly certain that this will keep me out of most trouble. Still if it doesn't, I'm not going to let the first serious shot to the dome I take come from Bubba 10 years after I start training. I'd rather be at least partially prepared. :D

[John Many Jars]

You two bring up a good point and have peaked my curiosity. I know each school is run differently but what intensity do the SD'ers here spar?

The level of intensity definately goes up the higher the rank at my school but even during gloved sparring I don't think I've seen anybody making more than medium contact. Most of the time it's just the light contact to the body/no contact to the head. Also, the protective equipment and facilities that we use aren't really ideal for full contact, so maybe that's why. =/ Luckily, I have a few friends I can get together with and push the envelope a little.

[brucereiter]

You two bring up a good point and have peaked my curiosity. I know each school is run differently but what intensity do the SD'ers here spar?

The level of intensity definately goes up the higher the rank at my school but even during gloved sparring I don't think I've seen anybody making more than medium contact. Most of the time it's just the light contact to the body/no contact to the head. Also, the protective equipment and facilities that we use aren't really ideal for full contact, so maybe that's why. =/ Luckily, I have a few friends I can get together with and push the envelope a little.

in our school we spar generally at a mutually agreed upon intensity. most of the time it is medium contact to any part of the body. (we try not to damage each others bodies :-) )
with some students who i trust we spar very hard ...

[brucereiter]

I don't go to bars, I don't frequent rough neighborhoods, I keep my mouth shut, and I don't mess with people. I am fairly certain that this will keep me out of most trouble.

wise words to live by ...

[ninthdrunk]

Lamassu,

There's another North Austin SDer in Chicago right now. Lxtruong on the boards here. I'm sure if you were around the north school for the past five years you know him...It's Long. He taught a lot of classes for Master Schaefer. I know he's really busy with law school right now, but you should let him know you're in town so the two of you can get together when time permits.

[Lamassu]

Done and done! :) Long and I have already had some dialogue over being fellow strangers in a strange land. We'll see what happens next year.

As for intense sparring with knockdown blows, I understand (firsthand) and appreciate it's value, but for the sake of a MA school, I wouldn't recommend implementing it into the curriculum. The hardcore sparring I did was with my best friend and sparring partner back in Texas, and we're both black belts, but if lower belts who don't know each other very well, we're to do it, then it would spell disaster for the school since someone will assuredly get hurt, and no one should pay to get their a$$ kicked. Now if a couple of experienced students who are black belts and close friends were to spar like this on their own time outside of the MA school, well it's a free country.

But we digress, the question was what can be told about new opening moves and tactics for sparring in class, and I say start experimenting with what you learn in your forms while you spar with your partner. You'll find yourself open at first, but you'll learn fast enough when and where any particular technique is effective. And you'll be more satisfied with what you've learned when you land some of those hits. ;)

[Judge Pen]

This could lead to serious injury and worse, litigation.

I'm effective at inflicting both.

Serioulsy, most of the sparring at the SD schools I've encounterd is the medium body, light to no contact to the head variety which has its place. Occassionally, we mix it up with heavier contact with the proper gear, but the clinch work and ground techniques are still lacking to some degrees. Of course, my teachers have no issue with me going to where-ever I want to mix it up with other schools in other formats which is a supplement to my sparring training. (Like Oso's school). I get more ground and clinch work there which is a great environment to learn. It's certainly humbling to get tossed like a rag-doll from someone who knows how to cleanly execute a throw and it's also a good litmus test to see how well you land and react to being tossed. I learn something new everytime I cross hands with someone.

[Judge Pen]

But we digress, the question was what can be told about new opening moves and tactics for sparring in class, and I say start experimenting with what you learn in your forms while you spar with your partner. You'll find yourself open at first, but you'll learn fast enough when and where any particular technique is effective. And you'll be more satisfied with what you've learned when you land some of those hits. ;)


Here's a different perspective. Most people get good enough to keep a good cover and not get hit until they start being offensive. Counter-techniques and reactions are key to good sparring. As an opening move throw a good sold technique or combo into their guard. Don't worry about getting through their gurad, but force them to react to you. Make them change their guard or stance and then try to take advantage of the opening it creates. Just don't over-extend yourself in the process. It's like a boxer who works the jab...the point isn't to hit them with every technique, but to keep it in their face and force them to work around it. Eventually it will open up the cross or the hook where the real impact can occur. Try a crisp teep or side kick into their guard and try to frce them to react. Eventually their hands will start to drop and allow you to play off of your kicks.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Serioulsy, most of the sparring at the SD schools I've encounterd is the medium body, light to no contact to the head variety which has its place

That's wierd...CSC ATL doesn't let lower belts (white-green) hit very hard. But when it comes to brown belt, the training is to end a fight asap by getting someone on the ground (sweeps, mostly). I'm not saying anything negative...it's just what all the instructors drill us on. There's plenty of opportunity to hit the head at that level, and one can expect to get hit in the head even by black belts at a good contact level...to give a brownie plenty of time to get used to it.

To be honest, I wouldn't want to train with too many restrictions. Sure, there's no use trying to hurt anyone. But I've learned invaluable lessons about maintaining a guard in all scenarios--on attack, defense, on the move, etc. (especially with regard to the face and head [and groin]). Someone can tell you to always maintain a guard, and you can practice it, but if you don't have to during sparring, you probably won't when you really need to. All stances should negate concerns with those anyways with regard to leg/hand position. I firmly believe tournament training/cheap sparring waters down the essentials in order to cater to what's legal, not what's effective or available.

Or were you talking about tournaments? We don't really have those down here. Seems to be a Do thing exclusively. Not doggin' ya JP, just pointing out geographical differences. I saw your vid of sparring in Asheville 'gainst a "Shaolin" guy. You had him down pretty quick on most of the matches.

PS--he wasn't SHaolin. He was practicing Isshun-Ryu Karate. That arm waving cadence/toe stepping is unmistakable.

[brucereiter]

CSC ATL doesn't let lower belts (white-green) hit very hard.


it is because they are the most dangerous :-) lol ...

i am all for heavy contact sparring as long as there is no anger involved, when somebody starts getting ****ed off and show anger i stop working with them.

i think it is good that it does not get broken up right when it goes to the ground (if that happens) for the most part you want to stay off the ground but if you never go there you will not know what to do when it happens :-)

peace

[Judge Pen]

To be honest, I wouldn't want to train with too many restrictions. Sure, there's no use trying to hurt anyone. But I've learned invaluable lessons about maintaining a guard in all scenarios--on attack, defense, on the move, etc. (especially with regard to the face and head [and groin]). Someone can tell you to always maintain a guard, and you can practice it, but if you don't have to during sparring, you probably won't when you really need to. All stances should negate concerns with those anyways with regard to leg/hand position. I firmly believe tournament training/cheap sparring waters down the essentials in order to cater to what's legal, not what's effective or available.

I couldn't agree with you more about that. I think that the way sparring is taught in most SD schools can lead to bad habits IF that's all that was taught. I do think you should start out lighter and work your way up and that the sparring should always be controlled, but it should be a progression to the point where we are sparring with mor practicality than playing a game of tag.

Or were you talking about tournaments? We don't really have those down here. Seems to be a Do thing exclusively. Not doggin' ya JP, just pointing out geographical differences. I saw your vid of sparring in Asheville 'gainst a "Shaolin" guy. You had him down pretty quick on most of the matches.

That tournament was an open style tournament. I participate in some of the SD tournaments too, when we have them, but I like fighting agasint other people from other styles as it tests what I'm taught versus what else is out there.

PS--he wasn't SHaolin. He was practicing Isshun-Ryu Karate. That arm waving cadence/toe stepping is unmistakable. Yeah, I knew it was soething else, but I wasn't sure what. To be honest, the guy was a tournament guy--probably one who went around and fought in all kinds of tornaments because he liked to fight and he liked to get trophys. He was very fast and very atletic. I watched him measure the ring so he could guage the distance for different techniques before the fights started. He knew what he was doing and he ultimately took first in that tournament.

[tattooedmonk]

Hope you all are doing well . Especially all you new parents. :D

[Shaolin Wookie]

Yeah, I knew it was soething else, but I wasn't sure what. To be honest, the guy was a tournament guy--probably one who went around and fought in all kinds of tornaments because he liked to fight and he liked to get trophys. He was very fast and very atletic. I watched him measure the ring so he could guage the distance for different techniques before the fights started. He knew what he was doing and he ultimately took first in that tournament.

I'll take your word for it. He looked competent enough. That scissors sweep was pretty sweet...I don't think I'd ever go for it, but maybe I just don't practice it enough for mine to be effective.

[Judge Pen]

I'll take your word for it. He looked competent enough. That scissors sweep was pretty sweet...I don't think I'd ever go for it, but maybe I just don't practice it enough for mine to be effective.

Yeah, I didn't see that one coming either. I switched stances to try to bait him into a high technique, but I got something different. Oh well, live and learn.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Alright.....apps time....

Anyone have White Monkey Steals the Peach?

At the beginning of section 2, when you turn and flourish to the right hip,
then step forward with the left foot and flourish.....


I was told this was a sweep. Didn't have it demonstrated, b/c at the time I was just trying to memorize the movements.

Does anyone know how this works? It's unlike anything I've seen so far.

[Golden Tiger]

Anyone have White Monkey Steals the Peach?

At the beginning of section 2, when you turn and flourish to the right hip,
then step forward with the left foot and flourish.....


I was told this was a sweep. Didn't have it demonstrated, b/c at the time I was just trying to memorize the movements.


If you are refering to the: Cross hands, turn 180, move hands to the other side and then step, then step and hit HN5(temple), side chop ST9(neck), slide hit RN17(low midline)...I have never seen those first steps used as sweeps but I am sure if you were able to trap the hands, twist , pull across and step, you could get a sweep out of it.

I do remember the form but each person pulls different things out of it. Hope that helps a bit.

[tattooedmonk]

Alright.....apps time....

Anyone have White Monkey Steals the Peach?

At the beginning of section 2, when you turn and flourish to the right hip,
then step forward with the left foot and flourish.....


I was told this was a sweep. Didn't have it demonstrated, b/c at the time I was just trying to memorize the movements.

Does anyone know how this works? It's unlike anything I've seen so far. Yes this is how master sin explained the moves. It is like BQ said.

[kungfujunky]

im seeing this in a little over a month so i will make sure to ask when i get to that spot

ill keep you posted

[Shaolin Wookie]

Thanks guys...

I'll continue playing with it until I understand it a little better. To GT--yeah, that's the spot exactly. When I asked some of the better guys with mantis, they asked to see my form. I did it. Then they said--keep practicing it before you take the plunge into that particular application.....:o .....

But it is good advice. There's a lot of useful stuff in there, and I haven't had it for very long...and hell, like I found out last week, my backsweeps are gettin' rusty...so I have plenty of other things to worry about....haha...

So I'll just play with it and think about it...

Nothing new.:cool:

[brucereiter]

Shaolin Wookie check your pm's please

[Shaolin Wookie]

Yeah...about that post. I got rid of it after I cooled down a bit.


I thought it would spark a conversation, but I was sure it would turn into bickering.

For those who didn't see it: I just flared up after an assistant internal arts instructor told me how "ineffective" the forceful techs of the external program were against his "superior" internal techs. It kind of got me ****ed, b/c he crossed the line in decency. I rarely talk about one being better than the other (I do both). They're mutually reinforcing. I can't imagine one without the other. But he slipped in his little underhanded slight with the intent of ****ing me off, b/c I was practicing my Double Dagger form before class and he was going to help teach the Yin/Yang dagger form (which I love). He then starts pointing out (unasked, interrupting me) that certain movements were "unsophisticated"......(well, I kind of wanted to show them how unsophisticated they could be). I asked him why. He said, basically, "nah, nah nah, nah nah, nah," with a real smug smile on his face. Didn't offer any criticism. Just said...."they're unsophisticated." Well, I'm pretty good at that form. I understand it, and I love it. I'll always be open to tips and apps....but to come up and say: "That's sooo unsophisticated.....?" That'll strike a nerve real quick.

I didn't say anything. I usually don't. I just stifle my outrage and smile, and then I bowed. But I was waiting, all class, to take a verbal shot at him.....which I am glad that I didn't.

I usually don't lose my cool. It's almost impossible to even break my cool.
Drama just slides right off me, man. I just loathe overweening pride, however. But anyway, he started talking about how if he was ever in a knife fight, he'd just do these three little slashes. I asked: "Well, how are you going to set them up? And does the other guy have a knife?" He said it didn't matter.

At that point, I knew he was just talking out of his ass. So in my post I kind of ragged on that attitude. There's a difference between internal development and cultivation and actual battle applications--especially with the Yin/Yang form. It can be useful--but when studied in the proper vein (of knifefighting in general). I got the feeling he hadn't tapped into that yet. So I suggested something. He shot it down, flat out. Said no. I said, "well sure, you might get your knife into position, and you might clear one arm out of the way, but what about his other hand." He said: "well, if I cut him, he won't throw it." I said: "Are you willing to risk it? You should watch that other hand....what if he's got a knife....or he knocks you out with a punch after you stab him, and then he slits your throat after he gets you onto the pavement?" Then I demonstrated how I might go about sliding past a guard (with external techniques), knife or no, and he stopped me. I was just trying to help--thought it would help us all learn a thing or two. He put a damper on it without even listening. And this was the experimental part of class we call "Applications."

I mean, if that's not the time to experiment, when is?

I knew, from previous push hands (at which I admittedly suck), that I could have thrown an "unsophisticated" punch at him and knocked him out cold. That's just a fact. I'm not boasting. Just an evaluation of speed, etc....and I'm really **** fast (it's my saving grace).

Normally, I don't get into these gripes with pride. But hell....like I said in my post:
"I know I'm not God....but neither are you."

That's actually been my first interaction with someone at SD (in the past couple of years) that I would actually label "unpleasant."

But for SDiscool and anyone else who saw the post--I'm sure you can understand why I deleted it. First I edited it. BUt then I saw how whiny and pathetic it was, so I dropkicked it into low orbit.

I vented my anger, cooled off. Damage done. So I deleted it. No biggie.

I'll take his class again, try to explain how we ought to share (the next time he stops me) and hopefully we'll all get along. We always do anyway.

I just thought it might be a lesson for all to learn.

[brucereiter]

Yeah...about that post. I got rid of it after I cooled down a bit.


I thought it would spark a conversation, but I was sure it would turn into bickering.

For those who didn't see it: I just flared up after an assistant internal arts instructor told me how "ineffective" the forceful techs of the external program were against his "superior" internal techs. It kind of got me ****ed, b/c he crossed the line in decency. I rarely talk about one being better than the other (I do both). They're mutually reinforcing. I can't imagine one without the other. But he slipped in his little underhanded slight with the intent of ****ing me off, b/c I was practicing my Double Dagger form before class and he was going to help teach the Yin/Yang dagger form (which I love). He then starts pointing out (unasked, interrupting me) that certain movements were "unsophisticated"......(well, I kind of wanted to show them how unsophisticated they could be). I asked him why. He said, basically, "nah, nah nah, nah nah, nah," with a real smug smile on his face. Didn't offer any criticism. Just said...."they're unsophisticated." Well, I'm pretty good at that form. I understand it, and I love it. I'll always be open to tips and apps....but to come up and say: "That's sooo unsophisticated.....?" That'll strike a nerve real quick.

I didn't say anything. I usually don't. I just stifle my outrage and smile, and then I bowed. But I was waiting, all class, to take a verbal shot at him.....which I am glad that I didn't.

I usually don't lose my cool. It's almost impossible to even break my cool.
Drama just slides right off me, man. I just loathe overweening pride, however. But anyway, he started talking about how if he was ever in a knife fight, he'd just do these three little slashes. I asked: "Well, how are you going to set them up? And does the other guy have a knife?" He said it didn't matter.

At that point, I knew he was just talking out of his ass. So in my post I kind of ragged on that attitude. There's a difference between internal development and cultivation and actual battle applications--especially with the Yin/Yang form. It can be useful--but when studied in the proper vein (of knifefighting in general). I got the feeling he hadn't tapped into that yet. So I suggested something. He shot it down, flat out. Said no. I said, "well sure, you might get your knife into position, and you might clear one arm out of the way, but what about his other hand." He said: "well, if I cut him, he won't throw it." I said: "Are you willing to risk it? You should watch that other hand....what if he's got a knife....or he knocks you out with a punch after you stab him, and then he slits your throat after he gets you onto the pavement?" Then I demonstrated how I might go about sliding past a guard (with external techniques), knife or no, and he stopped me. I was just trying to help--thought it would help us all learn a thing or two. He put a damper on it without even listening. And this was the experimental part of class we call "Applications."

I mean, if that's not the time to experiment, when is?

I knew, from previous push hands (at which I admittedly suck), that I could have thrown an "unsophisticated" punch at him and knocked him out cold. That's just a fact. I'm not boasting. Just an evaluation of speed, etc....and I'm really **** fast (it's my saving grace).

Normally, I don't get into these gripes with pride. But hell....like I said in my post:
"I know I'm not God....but neither are you."

That's actually been my first interaction with someone at SD (in the past couple of years) that I would actually label "unpleasant."

But for SDiscool and anyone else who saw the post--I'm sure you can understand why I deleted it. First I edited it. BUt then I saw how whiny and pathetic it was, so I dropkicked it into low orbit.

I vented my anger, cooled off. Damage done. So I deleted it. No biggie.

I'll take his class again, try to explain how we ought to share (the next time he stops me) and hopefully we'll all get along. We always do anyway.

I just thought it might be a lesson for all to learn.

hi sw,

i like your explanation ... you gave a very honest reply. sometimes it can be difficult to deal with peoples egos but this is one of the many lessons we can learn from practicing martial arts.

the assistant teacher in question (i know who you are talking about, i think :-) ) i am sure has good intentions even if he may have expressed the poorly take what ever you can of value from him and remember that we are all still just students forever. when we stop being a student maybe it is time to quit.

i think a better way for him to have expressed his opinion to you might be for example:
i see you are performing "xyz" like this ... well, let me show you my take on that and how i use that ... after sharing your ideas he might say "cool now go and play with that and see what you come up with maybe it will help you with "xyz"

he could have chosen better words than "that is unsophisticated" ... it might suck hearing that but their might also be value in it. to be able to obtain the value you can not listen with your ego as it will get in the way.

remarkably i have learned some very valuable lessons from people who have pretty low skill. every now and then a "moron" has good insight ... no ego no ego and no ego ..... . . . .... . . .....

no need to post an answer to these questions just ponder them.
what did you learn about yourself from this situation?
what did you learn about the other person from this situation?
what value did your anger and frustration have?

my invitation is alway open ...

best,

b

[Shaolin Wookie]

every now and then a "moron" has good insight

Hahaha.....the very words I live by....:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

Live and learn...I guess I'll just play it cool.

It was actually just a high ranking student helping to teach an oversized class. Not really an official assistant instructor. I think you're referring to a certain bald-headed third-degree (or fourth, maybe) sash, SDiscool, but naw, that's not him.

That guy has always been straight-up with me.

[John Many Jars]

I'm just a little curious as to what he meant by "unsophisticated". Too direct and to the point (so to speak)? Did he mean elegant? =/

Maybe you were doing the moves at the wrong time of day. Next time wait for High Tea and keep that pinky high.

It seems to me that knife fighting is a pretty dirty business and anything you can do to get out of the situation alive should be appreciated. But then again I've never been described as a sophisticated person so what do I know.

Hearing you talk about the forms kind of makes me wish I hadn't passed on seeing them. Maybe next time.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Anyways.....new topic:


I read this article...forget where:mad: ...about an SD cat who fought in some heavyweight tournaments in the eighties or something. He was a personal student of GM The, and was apparently a good fighter. The article said he knocked out some dude with a flip kick to take the title, and something about meeting/taking a punch from a big-time boxer (again, I forget who....). If I find a link to it, I'll post it.

But here's the meat:

When I joined up, I was told not to enter any tournaments. I had no intention to, and still don't---not why I'm here.

But if SD could turn out a fantastic fighter (w/ GM S.The's supervision, no less), why would our schools prevent it? They didn't before......why now? I know that's not what we're about...but....

Seems wierd to me. Don't know why......just does.

Who knows? Maybe someday when I get better I'll want to enter a tournament...in the spirit of learning. Tournament fighting does have some upsides. It's not all negative....

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'm just a little curious as to what he meant by "unsophisticated". Too direct and to the point (so to speak)? Did he mean elegant?


It seems to me that knife fighting is a pretty dirty business and anything you can do to get out of the situation alive should be appreciated.

I'm not sure what he meant....but when coupled with a smug smile and a condescending tone....I think I knew exactly what he meant:

"Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah...."in a child's schoolyard lingo.

The form itself is actually pretty fluid and elegant, getting from A to B, that is. But the actual cuts/apps are really small motions, except when used in combination (such as 'Giant Python Flips the Body', where you throat slash during a 180 jump, land, stab into the gut with both knives in a 1-2-fashion, then dropstep in order to gut and disembowel)--but even then, the elegance is quick and small [ie, its a quick small jump/turn without covering much distance).

The Yin/Yang dagger form is very elegant, I believe. It's all about coordination. But you show me a Yin/Yang dagger expert who could peform "Giant Python Flips the Body" on the first try with good placement and balance......and I'll shut up. I was ****ed that someone could be soooooo closeminded to think that external guys/forms were unsophisticated/brutish. We all learn from Masters taught by GM The......and I don't know anyone with any SD acumen that would make that charge about hte guy who originated the arts.

I thought it was a poor show of logic in general. He was indicting GM The in the process........

But the point is this.....learning the form will not, in itself, teach knifefighting. I've taken a couple of knifefighting seminars elsewhere, and sat in on part of a lecture given in Marietta last year before the form was taught.........

There's a lot to think about. You have to be all-aware, because you can't trade blows. You have to get the first cut the first time, in the right place, at the right time. Stabbing someone won't end the fight. Most people don't even notice they've been cut until hte end of a squabble.

Knifefighting is pretty unsophisticated in general.....and deadly. Throw a punch at a knifefighter, and expect to have your wrist cut. Game over.......

Hell, it might be unsophisticated. But it is incredibly economical.

[Judge Pen]

As far as I know, there is "SD ban" on fighting in tournaments. Personally I would be suspect of a teacher that said that from the off-set--I'm not saying this is the reason that your teacher said no tournaments--, but I would always be suspect that the real reason--wrapped up in some fortune cookie explanation--is that they are afraid that their students will not do well and it would hurt their reputation and their bottom line.

My teachers have never had an issue with me seeking open competition--I've never taken first, but I've always represented them and myself well. Wgat's wrong with that?

[brucereiter]

As far as I know, there is "SD ban" on fighting in tournaments. Personally I would be suspect of a teacher that said that from the off-set--I'm not saying this is the reason that your teacher said no tournaments--, but I would always be suspect that the real reason--wrapped up in some fortune cookie explanation--is that they are afraid that their students will not do well and it would hurt their reputation and their bottom line.

My teachers have never had an issue with me seeking open competition--I've never taken first, but I've always represented them and myself well. Wgat's wrong with that?

hi jp,

hope all is well with the baby/family :-)

as a teacher here in atlanta i have never heard of there being a ban on fighting in tournaments. i also dont know any students here who do that type of training, but there are several who i think would do really well. i would love to see someone go to a tournament and compete (as jp did) if i heard of a student wanting to i would offer them encouragement ...

best,

b

[Zen Archer]

Hello again, all. It's good to see some intelligent discourse on this thread. Hope you all had wonderful holiday times with your families. I have a response to the question regarding us participating in tourneys. As far as I know, it is discouraged, but not banned. I have personal experience of people from the CSC Denver school competing in tourneys. Back in the 90's we had a 5th sash black who was the most formidable fighter in the school by most accounts. I myself personally had a couple of bloody sparring matches with him as a brown belt. A good friend of mine who was also a brown at the time did the same. This 5th black did participate in some tourneys in the mid-90's. They were somewhat point based with a lot of rules of things not allowable. He did not win the top title of tourneys I saw due to lack of points, and lack of executing impressive technique. However he was very obviously not hurt or even rocked by any technique executed against him even though they resulted in points and wins for his opponent. He is no longer with the school, and some said he had a bad attitude ( my fellow brown and close friend was one ). Personally I liked the guy, and he was always completely honorable and helpful with me. Though our matches could be a little brutal, I learned a lot from him, about myself especially. :cool:

[kwaichang]

I competed in tournaments from 1975 - 1984. The tournaments of today are far different than those of that time. I competed again in 2000 and 2002 but was not as successful. I had trained with alot of contact for many of those years and realize that Tourneys are not a realistic way of competing , too many rules. As far as the "do not compete in others tournaments I was told not to but said if I did no big deal. I think it was due primarily to the concept that you should fight as you train and many of the techniques taught in SD are not allowed or applicable in tournaments. Example how many people use a Tiger or white crane technique purely ?? KC

[Zen Archer]

I agree with you, Kwaichang. One of the main reasons tournament fighting is discouraged is that by training to fight within a rules system for a large percentage of your training time spent you may become somewhat conditioned to not using some of your most effective techniques. Since my #1 practical and physical goal in training is for the ability to deal effectively with real life bad situations directed toward myself or my family, I would hate to condition myself into not using what is most immediately effective for me in those situations. I believe that the individual I referred to suffered from two problems in those contests. One, I believe, was actually stage fright from performing in front of a large crowd, in other words not being comfortable in that type of environment. The other, by my personal opinion, was the issue of not being able to use many techniques integral to our art. This is not an excuse, but my opinion on why he did not fare so well. By the same token, in most sparring within schools or in most competitions of today, even so-called NHB events there are rules. In reality, if someone is going to train for competetition they should be able to adjust their style to reflect the given rules and still remain somewhat effective. There may be some truth in the statement that it might reflect on the school badly if someone did not fare well in tourneys as for a reason why they are discouraged. However, when our student competed I know almost everyone in the school including the masters were there to give support and to observe this person compete. In a "real" test of martial skill there are absolutely no rules, this is the only true way of testing whether x person from style a is a superior fighter to y fighter from style b. As far as tournament fighting today I haven't seen a huge amount of events recently, but I don't see competing as being necessarily a negative thing. Personally, if I were to compete I would prefer to compete in a variety of organizations and rule systems so as to cultivate the ability to adapt and incorporate or remove various aspects of my fighting style based on the given situation, at will. This, to me, would be positive and would create in me a fighter that would easily add technique back to his fighting style in a hairy situation if needed to defend effectively.

[Zen Archer]

One more thing one a different subject. I have been doing some research on TCMA and Shaolin versus other styles of martial art. Maybe I can get some of my "favorite" posters up in arms again, while being like Shiva and destroying ignorance. One of the main points of argument on many different threads has been how various martial arts stack up. One that really made me laugh (search realfighting on yahoo) rated shaolin last in a list of ten martial arts as being effective for defense. All you fellow Shaolin: these "experts" ranked us below karate, judo, muay thai, jujitsu, & boxing in effectiveness for self defense. They as well as many other individuals indicate there is no ground defense in Shaolin as well as many other untruths. Aside from the fact there is much ground technique in many of our different styles, we have a seminar once or twice a year devoted solely to learning and practicing application of ground technique. This is just an example of misinformation. I digress, back to my point. The point is this: it is commonly known in (Eastern) Chinese martial arts circles including true Shaolin that effective defense comprises proficiency in four areas. Ti or kicking, Da or punching, Shuai or wrestling, & Na or Qin Na also known as to seize and to hold. This would also encompass jujitsu etc. A complete fighter must posess ability in all areas for street defense or the ancient art of Lei Tai ( real no holds barred fighting). Wrestling in ancient China and other places was developed as a defense against kicking and punching, and for this reason very few kick-and-punch only practitioners do well a against a wrestler at the same level of skill. Qin Na was developed as defense against wrestlers, hence the success of pure Qin Na stylists (or Jujitsu) against many wrestlers of similar skill. And for the last one that is sure to get some egotistical response from Gracie fighters and other jujitsu fans: Kicking and punching is the best defense against Qin Na or Jujitsu. Before you argue that one better go back and look at some of the 60 or so UFC. You will find that many of the people who defeated primarily Jujitsu style fighters, while maybe having a little knowledge of Jujitsu and it's counters, were in fact expert strikers! Is Shaolin-Do for real? Well, I'll tell you this: anyone highly proficient at kicking and punching will do very well against jujitsu practoners by the application of a single and very simple strategy: don't let them grab you and punish them every time they try to do so, which has been demonstrated in UFC and other NHB events. When I say highly proficient kickers and punchersI would specifically refer to Shaolin at the top of their game, just to be clear. One of the problems with this comparison is that someone who is truly at a high level in Shaolin should have destroyed the ego or be close to that goal, and may see no need to compete or engage in combat, thus the endless criticisms from all about it's not real. Maybe I should train for these events, since I have a long way to go in my spiritual development and destruction of the ego. :D I HAVE been describrd on this forum as pompous. That would be quite a riot to see a forty something (old) Shaolin pounding some NHB fighters in the ring, wouldn't it? Rest assured, if I were to do it I would have proficiency in all four areas mentioned! If I can come up with a way to feel like I'm not going backward in my spiritual development by doing this, you may all see me in the Octagon at 45.:D

[jigahus]

There are only 3 things constant in life. Death, taxes, and this freakin Shaolin-Do thread.

[Golden Tiger]

When I joined up, I was told not to enter any tournaments. I had no intention to, and still don't---not why I'm here.


To the best of my knowledge, there is not and never was a ban on entering outside tournaments. I have many friends that came out of the Lexington gym, back when Master Sin taught there (even back at the Sports Center with Master Hiang) that fought in just about everyone that was within driving distance.

It might not have ever been encouraged for what ever reason, but we trained in the gym with Master Sin watching many nights for open matches.

I kind of agree with JP's take on it but we (Lex) have never worried if we were going to do good or bad, we just liked to fight.

[Judge Pen]

hi jp,

hope all is well with the baby/family :-)

as a teacher here in atlanta i have never heard of there being a ban on fighting in tournaments. i also dont know any students here who do that type of training, but there are several who i think would do really well. i would love to see someone go to a tournament and compete (as jp did) if i heard of a student wanting to i would offer them encouragement ...

best,

b

Hey b, I didn't think there was a ban down there, but I've heard people say "my teacher won't let us compete in an open style tournament" and that always galls me. Tournament competition is what it is, but you can learn a lot about yourself in the process.

As far as the limitations of tournaments on ones effective technique, well that's a topic that's will be debated long after this SD thread has died--I'll say this--any controled environment will have certain rules for safety (they have to) and that will put some degree of hinderance on the technique one can use, but in order to train the live elements that would allow one the timing and the composure to employ an unlimited technique you have to be able to work agasint a resisting opponent and sparring, tournament or otherwise, is one of the best ways to cultivate those skills. Today, more than ever, there are venues that allow for more variety in technique that at least make the sparring more realistic then the point-sparring tournaments that we've all seen. Its a tool to your personal advancement, nothing more.

Zen Archer, I liked what you said "someone who is truly at a high level in Shaolin should have destroyed the ego or be close to that goal, and may see no need to compete or engage in combat" and I agree with that. I think that the competition is in myself and with my ego--can I overcome my ego and still have the desire to push myslef to become better? Can I overcome pride in winning and resentment in losing? I can sit at home and think that I can while pondering my belly-button, but until I put myself out there my beliefs remain unchallenged and untested.

[Shaolin Wookie]

One that really made me laugh (search realfighting on yahoo) rated shaolin last in a list of ten martial arts as being effective for defense. All you fellow Shaolin: these "experts" ranked us below karate, judo, muay thai, jujitsu, & boxing in effectiveness for self defense.

Haha....yeah. I love those comparisons. As if there weren't variations in karate, judo, muay thai, jujitsu, or boxing. I disregard those rankings as soon as I see 'em. Lumps everything into a convenient package.....little regard to internal variation. Hell, I know a lifetime TKD'er who can kick a little ass now and again:D . And I still don't know of anyone, in any martial art, who would have wanted to face Tyson in his prime.

Ti or kicking, Da or punching, Shuai or wrestling, & Na or Qin Na also known as to seize and to hold. This would also encompass jujitsu etc. A complete fighter must posess ability in all areas for street defense or the ancient art of Lei Tai ( real no holds barred fighting).

If there's one gripe I have with SD, it's that chin-na are often taught as escape maneuvers, rather than offensive maneuvers. Yeah, they might be elementary at first (a la the 30 that newbies learn).....but even those can get something going and throw off the pace of a fight. CMA guys seem to shun excessive grabbing--for a reason, true. But sometimes it can be your best friend...depending on the scenario. And if you know how to grab, you often learn how to defend against a grab twice as effectively...not to mention that if you don't practice it, you'll be all the more susceptible to it......ah....a lesson for push hands....;)my weakest skill



And for the last one that is sure to get some egotistical response from Gracie fighters and other jujitsu fans: Kicking and punching is the best defense against Qin Na or Jujitsu.


I believe MK once refuted the statement that ground fighters/bjj fighters had an almost perfect record in full contact tournaments by saying (paraphrased): "That's impossible. Only one ground fighter can win a match. So BJJ has a 50% win record, at best, against other ground fighters....." [only, he said it better, and I'm sure he'd agree]:cool:


Anyways...about the tournaments. Interesting perspectives. I was told that tourneys were pretty much taboo when I entered. I even remember the words "kicked out" appearing in their context. But I think the sifu in question simply meant "without my consent." Maybe it's a way to make sure only students with the right mentality/skill should represent his reputation in a public forum (not an online one, thank god, or I'm sure I'd be in some heat:o:D ).

Although right now I have no intention of really being a "tournament guy", it mmight be fun every once in a while testing out my skills against other styles. I always hear tell of sparring groups open to the general public, but I'm never around for it----although, sooner or later I'm gonna have to sneak into one of SDiscool's sparring sessions to check it out.:D

Soon as my danged schedule gets hammered out. Got passed up for the job that would have done it for me.....****......

But hell, if they want second best, they can take it.:p

[ironcu]

Mr. Ching, Gene

I noticed you have removed both of mine postings

1. need an honest answer
2. in search for knowledge

Your reasons was that I posted my ads in every forum. Maybe that's the rule that I didn't know about or did not read about. My reasons doing that was because I thought every forum is different and that in order for people to see my ad I must post my ad in every forum. If the rule is not to post the same ad in every forum that's fine with me however I disagree. I think my ads are very reasonable and deserve attention from all the members in the martial art community and all serious martial artists. My ads are intended for education purposes only because I am serious about learning and I have no other intention besides learning. If I may ask you to place my ads back in any forum you choose to so others can view and respond to. Thanks you for your time!

sincerely,
Ironcu.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Plus....if I've never been in a tournament....how could I really criticize? I've heard both good and bad extolled. Maybe it does help one mature---and maybe it would make me a better, more appreciative MA?

Who knows?

Or maybe I'd just drop some money on a worthless experience.....not that that hasn't happened before.....I actually paid to go see Snakes on a Plane with my girlfriend....:o (as a joke though....):D

But for right now....I've got plenty on my plate already. That can wait until another day....when I'm much better than I am now. Sparring top-notch SD'ers is a trip in itself. And any time an Atlanta CSC teacher says something to me, and it just clarifies the obvious (which I obviously missed:o ), I know just how far I am from understanding what's in front of me. Keeps me humble and honest (when I'm not getting fed up and venting on this forum...hahaha).

Anyway, thanks for the input.

Maybe you guys could answer another question:

What's with the break between SDA and CSC? I hope I'm not stirring up bad blood, and I know there's some differences in the way we study....and even in some of the forms.....

If it's not too touchy/personal a subject, might be interesting to know. I hear both sides talk (mostly, people are indifferent and think it's unfair to divide them up), but I wonder how it came to be that there are two sides....:confused:

I heard that if I went to an SDA school, my CSC belt ranking wouldn't transfer with me. I can understand that (to a certain degree), but it seems a little wierd.

There's two different camps writing the same history. I've just been wondering why.....:confused:

[Shaolin Wookie]

As an afterthought.........

Don't think b/c there isn't much talk of tournaments that we don't have good fighters in ATL. I've seen the best fighters in my life studying the Do (Tao...whatever) here in the dirty south.

Funny how SD and good fighting reputations seem to follow each other around, even on this forum, when we're the group on the "fringe"....:D :D ;) :cool:

[Shaolin Wookie]

I appreciate that, and I'll keep it confidential. I've heard good things about SD even from my CSC instructors. My sifu says they're the same thing, but there's this screen of fog about why they're different.

As for cordialty---I've never gotten an ill vibe from any SD guys---'specially y'all. Same with CSC.....that's why I figured it was politics. And if GM Sin can see past it, I don't see why any of us can't.

You know?

[brucereiter]

I will tell you that all students of GMS (SD or CSC) are welcome anytime at the Lex. school to work out or what ever....but I would advise you to not let anybody on your end find out if you decide to visit:)
BQ

and any student of gmt is welcome to come train in atlanta :-)

i dont think there is a problem in visiting other schools and would not be concerned about "letting anybody on your end" know :-) ...

best,

b

[brucereiter]

I always hear tell of sparring groups open to the general public, but I'm never around for it----although, sooner or later I'm gonna have to sneak into one of SDiscool's sparring sessions to check it out.

i am waiting :-) lol ...

[John Many Jars]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the rift between SD and CSC was between the east and west schools. I didn't think there was any issue between SD and Master Groom's schools.

I asked the masters about visiting some SD schools a couple of years ago and they seemed fine with it. We've also had a few SD'ers stop in to train. It was cool seeing some of the different movements and applications from the forms.

Here's a question. Has anybody seen chin na 31 and up?


Zen Archer wrote:
They as well as many other individuals indicate there is no ground defense in Shaolin as well as many other untruths. Aside from the fact there is much ground technique in many of our different styles, we have a seminar once or twice a year devoted solely to learning and practicing application of ground technique.

Are you talking about being able to defend yourself from the ground (wrestling) , taking people to the ground (sweeps/throws) or avoiding being taken to the ground?

By my definition, I don't qualify what we learn in those festivals as "ground defenses". Maybe sweeping or kicking somebody from the ground could count but that's about it. In my short time in the art I've basically learned how to take people to the ground (sweeps), if I'm on the ground, how to attack a standing person w/ sweeps and kicks and some ways to try to avoid being taken to the ground (chin na, striking, foot work, etc.) but as far as handling myself if an attacker already has me on the ground, not much. Maybe some holds and strikes. Definately, no wrestling of any kind. =/

[kungfujunky]

been awhile!

as for the rift...there was an email from gmt to stop it or get out basically lol

so i think that one is done

as for belt transferring...i can see why they wouldnt straight transfer the rank since there are subtle differences in every school.

but in my opinion i think they should let you transfer it..just repass the material for your new instructor

as for ground techniques i have learned a lot! in watching ufc i see instance after instance where a ground technique we/i have learned would have ended the match.


so yes we get a very good background on holds sweeps takedowns and what to do when your on the ground.

hey bq how you been man?

[Shaolin Wookie]

It seems to me that the whole issue of ground defense and its "groundedness" revolves around the mentality of the teacher. For instance, in Atlanta, I've heard Senior Master Grooms repeatedly state that he will do anything he can to stay on his feet and avoid going to the ground (and I believe it--he kicks and punches like lightning!). From the couple of times I've trained in Marietta, I got plenty of groundwork--Master Reid's takedown seminars focus more on the wrestling aspect than other ATL CSC groups (mounts, locks, holds, etc.). There are major differences in takedowns depending on the teacher. But for the most part, most of them focus on stand-up takedowns and throws.

[BoulderDawg]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the rift between SD and CSC was between the east and west schools. I didn't think there was any issue between SD and Master Groom's schools.

I'm a little confused here. I know Master G studied under Master's David and Sharon. So aren't the southern schools at least associated with the Chinese Shaolin Center?

In any case I do sense some tension between SD and CSC. For example on the CSC website they show GMT's schedule. However it only covers the events at the CSC schools and no mention of SD. Also if you go over to the SD website there is no mention of CSC or a list of their Masters.

Should there not be general information about the art on both sites?

By the way props goes to the Atlanta School for having a complete list of Masters from all branches of the art.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Hey BDAWG.....

I got the skinny from several peeps on both sides. It's nothing. All the schools are related.....but some ego-tripping, etc. caused several divisions.

I think all we need to know is that GM Sin The is the Grandmaster.

That should probably suffice. If any of my teachers said--hey, I don't like how they do this at this or that school.....or hey, I don't like how this guy teaches at this or that school....or hey, I don't like the rank advancement standards at this or that school.......I'd probably just chalk it up as a personal thing, and something I don't have to agree with.....and probably shouldn't.

I say let sleeping dogs lie. It's really nothing to yunguns like you or I.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Do any of you guys ever experiment with the forms?

For instance: When I run through Sea-Dragon Cane, I kind of get the picture of Sun WuKong in my head, and use it to enhance the form--since it's a tale taken from the Hsi Yu Chi. I don't make monkey sounds or scratch, but I stress the monkey aspects of it (and in the story, he's quite prideful and angry when he's thrashing through the dragon's underwater temple--so I mimic it a little with certain rhythms). It's not "marketed" as a monkey form....but its monkey overtones are readily apparent (360's, circular strikes, quick footwork). Some people have commented that they think I get into the spirit of animal forms better than others. That's always been my focus---besides striking hard/properly.

I hear people say "get into the spirit" all the time......but I rarely see that performance aspect in their forms. But the one's I see do this are usually the best.

I suppose what I'm driving at is this: "Getting into the spirit", from what I've seen on a large part in SD, is usually akin to....I'm doing tiger, so I'll just make a flurry of motion and hope it looks fierce, and hit hard, maybe even harder/off balance.....not, the tiger is powerful and graceful, and always in perfect balance and sync, so therefore I'll get the most power out of a fluid motion (with very deep stances)....not a flurry of motion.

I'm still a rookie by most accounts (KFM, and otherwise...what a bad pun):D .....just wondering which approach is better, in the long run.

Someone told me a while back that I shouldn't perform my forms, or else they lose their meaning. I think anyone who has ever met me in my school would say I extract more meaning/applications out of them than they thought possible....and I know I've barely scratched the surface. But as I get these applications/meanings, I tend to "perform" the form even more. For instance....during a form, I'll often pause at a particular stance (i.e. during Luo Tien, at the end of the second section, you fold arms, unwind, then kind of do a low clearing motion with a bird beak [as in clearing a kick] while guarding high with the right hand--same as in Interconnecting Fist near the beginning]). I do something like this in every form, sometimes several times, but I still stress hard/realistic strikes and technically sound stances. I feel that every form has certain internal "markers" at which one should pause, maybe even reflect, on the motions before and the motions after. It gives a form a rhythm. Not a long pause, but what one critic of my form once called "posing". He said it looked good, and I was striking hard....but I posed once or twice in each form.

Is that really so bad? When you hit a seven star stance, or a tiger bow/cat, etc. in the middle of a form, I think you ought to pause--for a second, maybe. Those are the kinds of markers that distinguish a form, IMHO.

Lots of people just hurry through them without any rhythm, and it looks sloppy. Might be good for cardio, but it doesn't really teach 'em much. Consequently, they wind up kickboxing and never using hte material.

I'm pretty good a sparring in each style I've learned (even at my lowly level in the big scheme of things). Might sound like I'm getting a big head here, but trust me, I'm not. I'm just looking for tips from experienced guys.

I'm not talking wushu-like performance....but in a way, my forms attain a cosmetic appeal. I actually think it's made me better as an MA. Concentrating on rhythm and fluidity has given me insights into power generation. And sometimes the snappiness of a form isn't its strength. Mantis forms are generally snappy, from what I've seen. But crane forms are fluid, golden tigers are fluid, drunken are fluid....etc....etc....etc....

I've had limited exposure to him in my 2 years.....would you say GM The "performs" his forms? I thought he did in 1 or 2 that I've seen....but he was teaching them at the time, so it was hard to tell.

Anyone have an opinion? Any advice for a dedicated student?

[Lokhopkuen]

I agree with you, Kwaichang. One of the main reasons tournament fighting is discouraged is that by training to fight within a rules system for a large percentage of your training time spent you may become somewhat conditioned to not using some of your most effective techniques. .

I have never once been to a "controlled contact" tournament that was anything less than full contact. One of the sad things in this country is people attempting to injure others under the guise of sportsmanship. However if you are training to be a FIGHTER becoming conditioned should not even be an issue as ANY fighting experience is Good experience 'if' you are training to become a FIGHTER. Martial art practice is about learn