Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[kungfujunky]

I'm not going to lose any sleep tonight KFJ it's late here and I'm going to bed...just one of Hiang's senior students opening up an old wound...it will give everybody something new to talk about. I don't even want to get started on Hiang anyway....I studied under him also:cool:

pm sent my man

[Baqualin]

funny thing is that this is not the first or second time I have heard this....very interesting..to say the least......bluegrass conspiracy?!?!?!

Have you ever heard of a thing called a Body guard;)
ELM's not a tyrant and a bully...he's a pretty good guy once you get to know him....especially to have him on your side:)
I got to go to bed before I get started:D

[BM2]

I would like to defend EML but he can do that himself without me. Will add that the book sucks.

[Golden Tiger]

anyone have any evidence to refute it? gt? bq? kc?

Yeah, I'll get back to you on it. It's too early for that much typing right now.

[Judge Pen]

funny thing is that this is not the first or second time I have heard this....very interesting..to say the least......bluegrass conspiracy?!?!?!I have heard and know a little about it ....but would like to know more..just for history sake!!

But the book; it's on Amazon.

[Royal Dragon]

This brings the question as to what are the differences between the two Brother's curriculems.

Does Hiang 'The have a more recognizable Shaolin curriculem? If so, what in his system is compareable to other well known southern Shaolin systems?

[Golden Tiger]

Several items concerning the system and Sin’s history need to be clarified and I intend to set the record straight. None of my comments should be mistaken for value judgments, except where I clearly say so.

Since most of your claims are slanted towards M. Hiang and are derogatory towards M. Sin, I have to conclude that all your statements are value judgements.

My motivation for speaking out is simple; my friends and I are getting older and the longer we wait the more damage will be done.

Perhaps you and your friends should have come to the school and voiced these concerns rather than on a public forum where at best, it would only reach 10 or 15 of the students you are so concerned about.

Although Master Hiang acquiesced to the situation for undetermined reasons, family loyalty to the eldest son probably played a part. In addition, he had just arrived from Indonesia, barely spoke English and his brother was his only link to home.

And during this time, M. Hiang never once hinted anything otherwise. He never refered to M. Ie as his grandfather, ALWAYS refered to M. Sin as the grand master and from stories I have heard lately, no longer has a link back home.

He passed away in 1968, and his grave is marked and dated. I do not understand the confusion on this issue. While Master Hiang did not broadcast this fact until the mid-1980s, he never lied about it.

There has been much confusion about this but I clearly remember when and how it came out. M. Haing returned from Indo and told EML in the car on the way back from the airport. It was not in '68, I do know that but months after the fact in '76.

Although Master Hiang arrived in the U.S. in 1968, he continued to return to Indonesia to train with Master Liu Su Peng (Sen Pien Sow) and others after the death of Grandmaster Ie. Two of these trips lasted over a year each. He received his last promotion to seventh-level in 1978 shortly before Master Liu’s death that year.


This is true, I remember it well.


His senior students then ordered his red/black belt and agreed that in light of the historical situation and facts that he was now the legitimate grandmaster of the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School.

If M. Sin was always his senior in rank, and they both studied at the same school, how did that allow him to become the "grandmaster"?

The first point of reference is the certificate that is hanging in the main (headquarters) school of the organization headed by Sin. This certificate is described on the website as “Certificate to Grandmaster Sin The from deceased Grandmaster Ie Chang Ming”

It is a certificate to M. Sin from M. Ie. I might also add that it is my understanding that M. Hiang has the original and for some reason, won't give it back to M. Sin.

As for the translation, I used to have it but don't have it handy at the moment. But the poster is correct on most of it. I did find it odd that my translation had "minored" as "excelled" in.

First, there is nothing to indicate this document is naming Sin as the grandmaster. Quite the opposite, it is signed by Ie Chang Ming who is listed as founder and principal of the school.

Thats because, as you stated, M. Sin was not named Grand Master until '68, also in a letter that I believe that M. Hiang has. It's been discussed before.

Second, a fifth level certificate doesn’t qualify a person in the Chung Yen Shaolin system to call themselves a master or to promote people to the level of master.


Then why did M. Hiang always refer to him as Master Sin?

Third, the dates conflict significantly with the information posted on the main Shaolin Do website about Sin’s training and background. In this version Sin (born 1944) began his training at age 7 and was given the title of grandmaster at age 25 when Master Ie retired.


It has always been told that Master Sin started training with M. Ie long before he was accepted as a student. Otherwise, I have no explanation to this.

Fourth, the same webpage states that, “In Shaolin Do, this body of knowledge is almost limitless, as Grandmaster Thé constantly reveals new training and forms from the 900-plus Shaolin forms he has mastered.” There is nothing on this certificate to indicate anything to support these statements.

I know about twice as many forms that are listed on a masters certificate. This means nothing.

Fifth, Sin has never taught any of the material in which he “minored.” There is a reasonably simple explanation for this situation. He has forgotten it, along with most of the other material he was taught as a young man.

With all the material that he has taught out, including most of the forms that make up Hiangs Central Shaolin by the way, one would think that if he wanted to teach them, he would. Or heck, make them up even if he forgot them.

When Sin started teaching the “11 New Material” class in the early 1980s (all supposedly basic stuff for the most part), it was unbelievably chaotic. He would start a class, be gone for nearly 30 minutes, then return that day or next week with significantly changes.

That would happen from time to time, but having taught for many years, I am guilty that myself. And also, any change that was made was always explained, not just done differently each time. And he still does that, just so you know.

When the Sports Center opened, Master Hiang did not teach any of Sin’s classes and vice versa. For example, in the early 1980s when Master Hiang was in Indonesia for over a year, he had his own senior students (not *****) take over his classes for him, not Sin.

One of those mentioned was Hiang's senior student. And that was after the split when Hiang started teaching at the Y. And it was taught by the much less that senior students that left with Hiang. Except for the two that later went over that are strangely absent from the Central Shaolin website.

Finally, in the infamous tournament of 1983, Sin stepped out onto the floor and announced to everyone he was promoting Master Hiang to 8th degree. He had the new belt in his hands. Master Hiang refused to walk out onto the floor or to accept the belt. Hundreds of people witnessed this event.

I was there for that one. But I was there at the next one that got Hiang removed from the club. A pity actually.


When Master Hiang left the country to visit his family in Indonesia he returned to find the club closed and all of the equipment in it gone(more than half of which he owned). Sin had abandoned his students and family in Lexington (he and his wife Lucia had divorced a few years ago, his children ***** and ***** were still in the area), and traveled to California where he announced he was going to be a movie star

M. Sin left for California in '91, long after the split. You have your information way off there. Oh, and there are 3 kids, not 2.

This discourse is not meant as an indictment against the many fine and good people who study in schools affiliated with Sin The.

Of course not.

[Golden Tiger]

This brings the question as to what are the differences between the two Brother's curriculems.

Does Hiang 'The have a more recognizable Shaolin curriculem? If so, what in his system is compareable to other well known southern Shaolin systems?

Same stuff....

http://www.centralshaolin.com/cshaolin_pages/material_list.html

[Judge Pen]

I'll ask before MK gets the chance: Does Hiang have any photos of Master Ie too? :p

[MasterKiller]

Well, you would think since the guy just died in 76 or so that you'd have some photograpghs. Especially since you have TWO of Su Kong (minus the crop of the bear).

[Judge Pen]

You would think . . . . Maybe he didn't like photos and just wanted his picture painted all the time.

[Baqualin]

Here’s my thesis and I’ll provide supporting information: Sin The was a well-trained, gifted and dedicated martial artist (quite frankly a natural athlete, incredibly powerful), who shortly after he arrived in Lexington, KY in 1964 began to exaggerate his background and ranking for undetermined reasons. When his younger brother, Hiang, arrived four years later, he was calling himself the grandmaster of a system called “Shao-lin Karate-do” and the “Sin The Karate Club.” Although Master Hiang acquiesced to the situation for undetermined reasons, family loyalty to the eldest son probably played a part. In addition, he had just arrived from Indonesia, barely spoke English and his brother was his only link to home.[/QUOTE]

You were not around then, your basing this on what you were told by M. Hiang

Although Master Hiang acquiesced to the situation for undetermined reasons, family loyalty to the eldest son probably played a part. In addition, he had just arrived from Indonesia, barely spoke English and his brother was his only link to home. [/QUOTE]

From what I hear he will not be travelling home anytime soon

There has been much confusion about this but I clearly remember when and how it came out. M. Haing returned from Indo and told EML in the car on the way back from the airport. It was not in '68, I do know that but months after the fact in '76.


Yeah I always thought this was pretty ****ty, that GMS found out about GMIe's death 2nd hand a considerable time after the fact...typical Hiang


Quote:
Although Master Hiang arrived in the U.S. in 1968, he continued to return to Indonesia to train with Master Liu Su Peng (Sen Pien Sow) and others after the death of Grandmaster Ie. Two of these trips lasted over a year each. He received his last promotion to seventh-level in 1978 shortly before Master Liu’s death that year.

True, I was in M. Hiang's breathing & meditation class that part of his studies for this promotion


Third, the dates conflict significantly with the information posted on the main Shaolin Do website about Sin’s training and background. In this version Sin (born 1944) began his training at age 7 and was given the title of grandmaster at age 25 when Master Ie retired

He also began training with another master first before he began his training with GMIe

Quote:
When Master Hiang left the country to visit his family in Indonesia he returned to find the club closed and all of the equipment in it gone(more than half of which he owned). Sin had abandoned his students and family in Lexington (he and his wife Lucia had divorced a few years ago, his children ***** and ***** were still in the area), and traveled to California where he announced he was going to be a movie star

He abandoned nobody.....like GT said your way off on the dates here.....GSM had aready remarried and divorced for the 2nd time ( I've done that).....his children were taking care of themselves by then except the youngest who lived with Lucia in Tenn......he turned the gym over to EML...was dating a very good friend of mine and I personally moved his belongings out of his appt. into storage...1991

More later...I'm at work:)

One more thing...I wonder if M. Hiang know about this:D

[tattooedmonk]

Have you ever heard of a thing called a Body guard;)
ELM's not a tyrant and a bully...he's a pretty good guy once you get to know him....especially to have him on your side:)
I got to go to bed before I get started:D yes I have and this is something I was told about ......I did not believe that he was...i have heard this from many people...I know he would be!!

[Golden Tiger]

One more thing...I wonder if M. Hiang know about this

He does now.;)

[Radhnoti]

I'll give my opinion...not that I'm even in the system, nor was I highly ranked. Just researched as much as I could about it.
I think GM Ie is the maternal grandfather. It just makes sense. It explains (beyond simply skill) why Sin would receive the GM title even though Hiang kept returning for more training. (I've also seen copies of letters granting that title and Ie refers to either himself as grandfather or Sin as grandson.) My understanding is that when GM Sin is asked who will be the next GM he laughs and says his grandson. A family tradition? It's certainly not rare in Chinese styles to pass systems through families. GT says, "It has always been told that Master Sin started training with M. Ie long before he was accepted as a student." To me, that's more data suggesting a familial relationship.
I don't think Sin has forgotten his primary styles...I think he's keeping it for the family member he intends to follow him as GM. I've seen documents indicating that GM Ie also "majored" in golden snake. I think GM Sin considers that style the "little bit you hold back" so prevailant in Chinese martial arts.

GT - "If M. Sin was always his senior in rank, and they both studied at the same school, how did that allow him to become the "grandmaster"?"

Hiang's group seems to ignore the elevation of Sin to GM...only granting that Sin was ranked 5th in the system. I've heard a million explanations for this...one was that 5th was the highest rank until Sin came to the U.S. and told Ie about people with higher ranks. That doesn't gel with Hiang being ranked 7th though. I think it's pretty clear that Ie wanted Sin to "inherit" the system, but I also think Hiang earned 7th and Sin earned 5th. So, the question becomes who is "worthy" of inheriting a system? The gifted prodigy/eldest grandson who was named GM by the previous GM, or the (by all accounts) less gifted but perhaps more tenacious/experienced younger sibling?

GT - "I did find it odd that my translation had "minored" as "excelled" in."
Mine also, and mine came from one of Hiang's students.

RD - "This brings the question as to what are the differences between the two Brother's curriculems."

GT is right, it's basically the same thing. I'm not sure if GM Sin teaches Lee tai chi, which I've heard is the tai chi they got in Indonesia...
Hiang also teaches an 18 form tai peng system and an 18 form double dagger system...which were his specialty I believe. There are a few more as well...and, obviously, SD teaches a lot that Hiang doesn't.

[Flaca]

One more thing...I wonder if M. Hiang knows about this:D

I've heard many stories about M. Hiang, but would never post them here.

Also, given that the curriculum of Hiang's school is the same as GMT's school, any condemnation of GMT's school is a condemnation of Hiang's school. It surprises me that Lorenzo would post his diatribe in this forum.

[kungfujunky]

GT is right, it's basically the same thing. I'm not sure if GM Sin teaches Lee tai chi, which I've heard is the tai chi they got in Indonesia...
Hiang also teaches an 18 form tai peng system and an 18 form double dagger system...which were his specialty I believe. There are a few more as well...and, obviously, SD teaches a lot that Hiang doesn't.

i have heard gmt talk about the dagger forms. he told me he had them all but wasnt sure when he would show them. (i asked because i wanted to see the 18 flying daggers form)

[Golden Tiger]

Hiang's group seems to ignore the elevation of Sin to GM...only granting that Sin was ranked 5th in the system.

Only after they became "Hiangs group". Every one of his upper level students very happily refered to Master Sin as GM up until the split. After the split, everything seemed to change and their memory faded a bit it seems. But I was in class with most of them every week so I do know that for a fact. Then they went their way, we went ours and all was fine and dandy.

[Judge Pen]

In 2001 Master Hiang’s senior students realized that the schism in the school with Sin’s students was irreparable and they requested that we change the name of our school to the one he trained in with his grandfather. His senior students then ordered his red/black belt and agreed that in light of the historical situation and facts that he was now the legitimate grandmaster of the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School. (Infighting in the school in Bandung over a decade ago had caused the school to fall apart years ago.) Master Hiang never named himself the grandmaster or pressured anybody to come to this conclusion. If his senior students hadn’t acted, he would still be wearing the same threadbare belt, indicating his seventh-degree rank, he earned from his teachers almost 15 years ago. His most senior students ordered and paid for the new one.[QUOTE]

Is this a first in Martial Arts History.....Students in charge of rank promotions:confused: Hey GT I promote you to 6th...JP,KC,KFJ,TTM....even MK(your not in SD but what the heck) what rank would you like:D

Nah, rank doesn't mean as much to me...plus I likde earning things on my own.

[Baqualin]

I've decided not to post anymore on this subject out of respect to GSM and his family....we do not bother Central Shaolin here or in Lexington and I'm not going to stoup to Lorenzo's level. My hackles got a little raised about what was said about GMS, EML and EMS by someone who has been led astray...I've probally already said to much:rolleyes:

[kungfujunky]

it is interesting. both sides have glaring holes but gmt did have seniority over hsiang.

[GeneChing]

You know, given the choice, I'd be happy to just let this thread run its own course. But when my complaint box starts to fill up again, it's more work for me. I hate that. I have plenty of other things to do other than clean up this thread. So here's the deal. I'm really busy with a bunch of other work issues right now, but I'm going to start banning forum members rather indiscrimanently for posting things that are even slightly antagonizing, just to get on top of this. Later, when my deadlines pass (probably not until after Halloween), I might sort out the banned and redeem a few. Then again, I might not bother. So there you have it. I've drawn the line in the sand. Cross it and I ban you. It's very simple.

Now let's have some peace and quiet around here.

[MasterKiller]

Yeah.

What Gene said.

even MK(your not in SD but what the heck) what rank would you like

I would like the title of Grand Poobah.

[Baqualin]

Yeah.

What Gene said.



I would like the title of Grand Poobah.

Make it so:cool:

[The Willow Sword]

A great deal just got erased from the last two pages. the bluegrass consipracy and whatnot and those interesting historical comments about eric smith and bill leonard.

i guess that was what the complaints were about that Gene was saying.

TWS

[Flaca]

Methinks you missed the concept TWS.... :confused:

[Judge Pen]

A great deal just got erased from the last two pages. the bluegrass consipracy and whatnot and those interesting historical comments about eric smith and bill leonard.

i guess that was what the complaints were about that Gene was saying.

TWS

I doubt that Gene did the erasing.

[The Willow Sword]

I knew that there was going to be some cleaning done, i just didnt notice it after i read gene's post. i did find the last post lorenzo did very innapropriate(the one that got erased). everything else was a very interesting read(to say the least).

Peace,TWS

[ricardocameron]

About Grandmaster Sin's kids....never heard much about them. Did he train them, and are they in the art? Would they probably inherit the system?

And...

Does anyone even know what the big problem(s) were between the brothers?

And ... if you look at some of the pictures posted on the sinthe.com site, you will see GMT's belt ranking. He was higher than Master Hiang, too. How big are the Chung Yen schools, anyway? Hell, if the material is the same, it's the same art. A rose by any other name....


To see lots of great pictures on Sinthe.com...
You will get (404 not found) if you click the link he gave. use this link.
http://www.sinthe.com/images/2004/

it takes you to the parent directory, then click away. I have neverseen many of these. The paintings are awesome! Never knew there was a mural, too, apparently unfinished, in Lex.

[Baqualin]

I doubt that Gene did the erasing.

I second that doubt;)

[Judge Pen]

Apparently I was wrong. As a chief contributor to the train-wreck that is the "Is SD for Real" thread on KFO, I apologize to Gene for keeping him so busy.

[Golden Tiger]

As a chief contributor to the train-wreck that is the "Is SD for Real" thread on KFO, I apologize to Gene for keeping him so busy.

As do I. But I think Gene used good judgement in what he did. We can go back and forth in a civil manner without resorting to personal attacks.

Now back to the show....


PS..JP, mail

[Lorenzo Valla]

For All - I didn't erase my last post, but respect the decision of the moderator. Regardless, I believe all of the information is supported and documented.

GT

Your habit of parsing someone's statements to better reflect your position is weak-minded. If you can't argue the thesis and provide some evidence to support your position, then why bother to reply?

I spoke on this forum because that's where the discussion is.

I have photos of Master Ie's grave and stone. The names of his children and grandchildren are on it. Oh, and so is the date. When I post that will you complain to Gene and get the post deleted?

If Sin was the grandmaster in 68 why didn't he sign Master Hiang's certificate in 78 as the head of the system?

Sin's certificate posted on his webpage is the evidence he presents for being the head of the system, or can't you read what it says around the display?

There was no "Sin The Karate Club", "Shaolin Karate-do" or "Shaolin-Do" organization in Indonesia, nor does it appear on Sin's certificate.

The material listed on Sin's certificate is important....its certifies what he studied.

Sin has not taught the Golden Snake, Iron Finger or Cyclone Leg. Master Hiang has taught all 18 Bird and 18 dagger.

Sin has two children with Lucia. I didn't mention his later wives because I never personally met them.

There are plenty of photos of Master Ie. Maybe I'll post a lineup and GT will pick who is who. Maybe there will be photos of other teachers at the school in Indonesia. Can you name one other teacher of Sin's? Can you post any photos of anything?

I'll be checking on that call to Master Hiang.....

Baqualin

You don't know me, so you don't know where I was or when. 25 years was not necessarily consecutive, just an assumption on your part.

Master Hiang and his family lived in Bandung from 1993 to 1998. He travels back and forth regularly (just two years ago actually). Since his mother passed away he probably won't make as many trips.

If Sin is the head of the system and the bad Hiang didn't tell his brother their grandfather died, why didn't one of the other masters who were still active at that time in Indonesia?

Radhnoti

If there is a letter from Master Ie appointing Sin then why isn't that on display at the Gold Rush gym instead of the certificate?

Master Hiang kept returning for training to keep progressing and learning. Only in the SD camp's fantasy world does a guy learn 900 forms in the space of a decade, 40 years ago, never teach it and somehow retain it.

The translation "minored" wasn't meant to be dimunitive....it went on to say that Sin excelled in those subjects and all of his studies.

To all - Let me make a few things clear. The two schools are not the same, the material is no longer the same, and a person's character and integrity matter in their personal and professional lifes.

All of this information is merely to serve as an effort to refute the patently and documented false claims by the Sin The Karate Club to the leadership of the Shaolin community. Master Hiang does not claim to be the head of the entire Shaolin system, merely the grandmaster of the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School, the school founded by his grandfather, a Shaolin monk of the Fukien Shaolin Temple.

[Golden Tiger]

You seem a tad upset Larenzo.. calm down, it will be all right..:rolleyes:

[Baqualin]

GMS had 3 children with Lucia 2 boys and a girl....had no children with his 2nd wife:) The girl is in the picture with Arnold:)

[Baqualin]

If Sin is the head of the system and the bad Hiang didn't tell his brother their grandfather died, why didn't one of the other masters who were still active at that time in Indonesia?[QUOTE]

I guess they could have called him on their cell phone:rolleyes:

[GeneChing]

I was just about to ban Lorenzo Valla for implying that GT was "weak-minded" above and he PMed me an apology for being a newbie and not knowing forum etiquette. Ah, I'm a softy for a well-timed apology, but that only works once. Next time, I doubt I'll be so merciful.

I'm right up against a lot of deadlines now, so I'm itching to going back to work. Banning seems to be the most effective method to mellow out this thread at this time. Please don't PM me for the 'rules' on what might get you banned on this thread as some of you have done. My objective here is to reduce the work this thread brings to me and if I have to answer so many PMs from you all, that's bad. Superfluous PMs to me will get you banned too. If there's any question, just don't post here. Don't take the chance.

Just call me the Shaolin Do Wet Blanket.

[Baqualin]

For All - I didn't erase my last post, but respect the decision of the moderator. Regardless, I believe all of the information is supported and documented.

GT

Your habit of parsing someone's statements to better reflect your position is weak-minded. If you can't argue the thesis and provide some evidence to support your position, then why bother to reply?

I spoke on this forum because that's where the discussion is.

I have photos of Master Ie's grave and stone. The names of his children and grandchildren are on it. Oh, and so is the date. When I post that will you complain to Gene and get the post deleted?

If Sin was the grandmaster in 68 why didn't he sign Master Hiang's certificate in 78 as the head of the system?

Sin's certificate posted on his webpage is the evidence he presents for being the head of the system, or can't you read what it says around the display?

There was no "Sin The Karate Club", "Shaolin Karate-do" or "Shaolin-Do" organization in Indonesia, nor does it appear on Sin's certificate.

The material listed on Sin's certificate is important....its certifies what he studied.

Sin has not taught the Golden Snake, Iron Finger or Cyclone Leg. Master Hiang has taught all 18 Bird and 18 dagger.

Sin has two children with Lucia. I didn't mention his later wives because I never personally met them.

There are plenty of photos of Master Ie. Maybe I'll post a lineup and GT will pick who is who. Maybe there will be photos of other teachers at the school in Indonesia. Can you name one other teacher of Sin's? Can you post any photos of anything?

I'll be checking on that call to Master Hiang.....

Baqualin

You don't know me, so you don't know where I was or when. 25 years was not necessarily consecutive, just an assumption on your part.

Master Hiang and his family lived in Bandung from 1993 to 1998. He travels back and forth regularly (just two years ago actually). Since his mother passed away he probably won't make as many trips.

If Sin is the head of the system and the bad Hiang didn't tell his brother their grandfather died, why didn't one of the other masters who were still active at that time in Indonesia?

Radhnoti

If there is a letter from Master Ie appointing Sin then why isn't that on display at the Gold Rush gym instead of the certificate?

Master Hiang kept returning for training to keep progressing and learning. Only in the SD camp's fantasy world does a guy learn 900 forms in the space of a decade, 40 years ago, never teach it and somehow retain it.

The translation "minored" wasn't meant to be dimunitive....it went on to say that Sin excelled in those subjects and all of his studies.

To all - Let me make a few things clear. The two schools are not the same, the material is no longer the same, and a person's character and integrity matter in their personal and professional lifes.

All of this information is merely to serve as an effort to refute the patently and documented false claims by the Sin The Karate Club to the leadership of the Shaolin community. Master Hiang does not claim to be the head of the entire Shaolin system, merely the grandmaster of the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School, the school founded by his grandfather, a Shaolin monk of the Fukien Shaolin Temple.

Sounds like your trying to justify your own credibility.....I guess we do need to start a new thread is Central Shaolin for real?

[Baqualin]

Sin has not taught the Golden Snake, Iron Finger or Cyclone Leg. Master Hiang has taught all 18 Bird and 18 dagger.[QUOTE]

What's your point:confused:

[tattooedmonk]

http://www.sinthe.com/images/2004/

.... now if it is true that master sin was given this certificate and it indicates that he was at fifth level.....

.. take a look at the image of the belt ranking system again...

if you look on the right hand side it says that there are 5 black levels and is bracketed to cover all levels from 1st to 10th black ...

could it is be possible that this certificate indicates that he is the grandmaster and because we are americans translating chinese that this is just a matter of perspective as to whether he is or not the grandmaster or a fifth level blackbelt....

is it possible???

[Baqualin]

Master Hiang kept returning for training to keep progressing and learning. Only in the SD camp's fantasy world does a guy learn 900 forms in the space of a decade, 40 years ago, never teach it and somehow retain it. [QUOTE]

There's around 200 forms listed on your web site thats alot of material and I'm sure M. Hiang knows a few he hasn't taught out...go figure.

You are the one who has opened this can of worms...are you trying to start trouble between brothers again:confused:

Yes I do wonder if M. hiang knows what your doing....I don't believe he would approve....he has a nice peaceful life here now and doesn't need turmoil caused by you.

I run across his students all the time and show them the utmost respect...can you say that:)

[Radhnoti]

Radhnoti - "If there is a letter from Master Ie appointing Sin then why isn't that on display at the Gold Rush gym instead of the certificate?"

It calls GM Sin "my grandson".

Here's my a copy of what I've got...secondhand from a Hiang student I might add.

"Master Ie Chang Ming’s Letter to Sin The’ I was born in love with Wu Shu (martial arts or kung fu). In the early time, I traveled everywhere in China to learn Martial arts, and had been up to North Korea. It has been 50 years since I moved down to south. I had been through a lot of tough times. But when I looked it back, I surely had a lot of unforgettable memory. Now I am presenting you this level ten black belt with red honor strip, on behalf of all the colleagues in this gang. I wish you strictly keep all the rule, and develop the spirit of martial arts. This is what I want to say to you today. Do your best! To My Grandson and Disciple, Sin Kwan, Iron Palm Master Postscript: The three self-defending treasures, which have been with me through my living from place to place, are the Jade Smoking Stick, Drunk Man’s Crutch, and Ancient Money Shaped Son-Mother Biao (a dart like weapon). These three things look like necessaries for common travelers. Nobody will ever pay attention to them. Actually, you never know how powerful they are when you are in danger. They are my precious treasures. But I am already over seventy years old, and I decided not to use these weapons for a long time. Now, I give these to you as gifts. I wish you use them well and keep them properly. About “Biao”, you are better not to use it, because “Biao” is very easy to hurt people, and it is hard to control its direction, and also hard to get it back when you throw it out. So be very careful to it, especially that Son-Mother Baio, and never try to throw it out. Please keep in mind!!! Please!!!"

A frequent contributor to this thread has told me that he's seen one of the "precious treasures"...

[Lorenzo Valla]

I appreciate the opportunity that the Kung Fu Magazine forum has provided to put a dissenting view out for discussion. I honestly have no further comments to make on this subject or any other.

In the preceding 221 pages I have watched the loyal SD supporters stick to their guns and I do respect that. They are certainly not fair-weather friends to their teachers or fellow students. But I also took note of their claims and comments about my friend.

The effort wasn't to recruit you or change your mind; it was to make sure that other visitors (like me) who come to this forum have a more complete understanding of what is being said and claimed.

[Radhnoti]

I'd love it if you'd comment on your opinion of the validity of this letter Lorenzo. Probably not a Sin supporter as it says "grandson". Probably not a Hiang supporter as it says "10th degree". I believe that it was originally posted by a guy named "James Hall".

Anyway, I love having GM Hiang's students come around to offer counterbalance...GroundDragon comes to mind as a GREAT source of information (and a seemingly great guy) that I'd never have had access to otherwise.

GM Hiang still teaching that Su Kong was the head of the martial portion of the southern shaolin temple bolsters my belief that this is what they were taught...though not necessarily that this is the actual history. It's a fun historic puzzle to me...just enough facts and truths to keep me interested. :D

[BentMonk]

This whole debate is like an old movie on Kung Fu Theater. Unless there are some physical pieces of evidence unearthed by archaeologists in the near future, this debate is never going to end. As Rad said, there's just enough mystery to keep us all curious. I am curious, but I have really stopped caring beyond that. As I've said, everyone in SD has been nothing but good to me. I have had the honor of spending lots of informal time with GM Sin. I consider myself a decent judge of character. I do not get the feeling from GM Sin that he is anything other than what he says he is. GM Sin has taught the history of SD as it was taught to him. If he did exaggerate a bit it was likely an attempt to compete in an American marketplace that was filled with "Masters" of this art, "Grandmasters" of that art. So what? He wasn't the first to do it, and he sure as heck wasn't the last. It also doesn't make him a bad person. I think most people who study MA need to quit living in the past and realize that we are the new lineage. MA history as a whole is rampant with inconsistent legends. CLF, WC, XY, practitioners of these arts devote countless pages to debating who has "the purist" lineage, or "the most effective" set of techniques. This whole thread is just a different verse of the same song. Heck a few pages back I posted this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGIHXVeL24o&NR It is nearly identical to the "Iron Man" form SD does. The man in the interview states that his system traveled from Fukien, and if you watch the whole clip my SD friends will see a lot more similarities. I thought this gave a lot of credibility to SD's origins, and yet no one said anything. Hmm...go figure. :rolleyes:

[Radhnoti]

I have a friend in Isshinryu that does a similar kata called Sanchin as well...
Here's some comments about Sanchin from an Isshinryu site:

"Sanchin practice in regards to the muscle and breath control through dynamic tension does date back through the Chinese Martial Arts to their origin as to the teachings of Bodhidharma. This is in regards to the techniques involved yet the actual Sanchin kata as we practice it today comes from Miyagi who transformed the dynamic tension kata he learned into today's Isshinryu Sanchin Kata.
The techniques and principles behind the Sanchin kata do come from China. Possibly a Crane or Wing Chun practice. Yamaguchi did create a form of Sanchin yet so did others. If you look at some southern Chinese White Crane styles, you'll find some version of Sam Chien. Uechi Ryu has its own version and my opinion is it is probably closer to the original Chinese version using more open hand techniques. Plus, the breathing is nowhere near as "hard" or "harsh" as you will see in the Yamaguchi line of Goju Ryu. There version is much more "natural" in its breathing compared to what most of us have probably seen.

My conclusion from my sources is Sanchin is in all probability the oldest practiced kata on Okinawa and its roots come from China. The Chinese martial arts are believed to come from Bodhidharma's teachings to the Shaolin Monks. In reality Sanchin does date back to that time in one form or another and Sanchin as we practice it today comes from Miyagi through Tatsuo Soke."

I'd have commented on it, but my dial up connection (I live too far out in the country for any reasonable high speed connection) makes it unlikely I'll ever view a video online. :D

[The Willow Sword]

That was a great vid on okinawa karate.
TWS

[BentMonk]

Yes it was, thank you. lol You know darn good and well I was using that as an example that SD is not the only art with Chinese origins that doesn't have the outer trappings that most associate with TCMA. BTW, I saw your post several pages back concerning what you've been going through and your posting demeanor. If it helps I've been there too, and it does get better. It still sucks while you're in the shiat, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. No hard feelings at all. I wish you the best man. Peace.

[Judge Pen]

Radhnoti - "If there is a letter from Master Ie appointing Sin then why isn't that on display at the Gold Rush gym instead of the certificate?"

It calls GM Sin "my grandson".

Here's my a copy of what I've got...secondhand from a Hiang student I might add.

"Master Ie Chang Ming’s Letter to Sin The’ I was born in love with Wu Shu (martial arts or kung fu). In the early time, I traveled everywhere in China to learn Martial arts, and had been up to North Korea. It has been 50 years since I moved down to south. I had been through a lot of tough times. But when I looked it back, I surely had a lot of unforgettable memory. Now I am presenting you this level ten black belt with red honor strip, on behalf of all the colleagues in this gang. I wish you strictly keep all the rule, and develop the spirit of martial arts. This is what I want to say to you today. Do your best! To My Grandson and Disciple, Sin Kwan, Iron Palm Master Postscript: The three self-defending treasures, which have been with me through my living from place to place, are the Jade Smoking Stick, Drunk Man’s Crutch, and Ancient Money Shaped Son-Mother Biao (a dart like weapon). These three things look like necessaries for common travelers. Nobody will ever pay attention to them. Actually, you never know how powerful they are when you are in danger. They are my precious treasures. But I am already over seventy years old, and I decided not to use these weapons for a long time. Now, I give these to you as gifts. I wish you use them well and keep them properly. About “Biao”, you are better not to use it, because “Biao” is very easy to hurt people, and it is hard to control its direction, and also hard to get it back when you throw it out. So be very careful to it, especially that Son-Mother Baio, and never try to throw it out. Please keep in mind!!! Please!!!"

A frequent contributor to this thread has told me that he's seen one of the "precious treasures"...


Yes I've seen the Jade pipe, but only briefly.

"Sanchin practice in regards to the muscle and breath control through dynamic tension does date back through the Chinese Martial Arts to their origin as to the teachings of Bodhidharma. This is in regards to the techniques involved yet the actual Sanchin kata as we practice it today comes from Miyagi who transformed the dynamic tension kata he learned into today's Isshinryu Sanchin Kata.
The techniques and principles behind the Sanchin kata do come from China. Possibly a Crane or Wing Chun practice. Yamaguchi did create a form of Sanchin yet so did others. If you look at some southern Chinese White Crane styles, you'll find some version of Sam Chien. Uechi Ryu has its own version and my opinion is it is probably closer to the original Chinese version using more open hand techniques. Plus, the breathing is nowhere near as "hard" or "harsh" as you will see in the Yamaguchi line of Goju Ryu. There version is much more "natural" in its breathing compared to what most of us have probably seen."

I always thought it was interesting that our version of San Njie was taught at the same time as the withe crane material we have. Incidently, I've seen video from a kung tao site that mentions one of the collegues in their lineage that teaches material very similar to our white crane. MS2 actually pointed it out to me. I don't think they have a good reputation for putting out fighters, but their forms look very similar.

[Golden Tiger]

Yes I've seen the Jade pipe, but only briefly.


Its with him at all times. Pretty cool in my opinion.:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

.... now if it is true that master sin was given this certificate and it indicates that he was at fifth level.....

.. take a look at the image of the belt ranking system again...

if you look on the right hand side it says that there are 5 black levels and is bracketed to cover all levels from 1st to 10th black ...

could it is be possible that this certificate indicates that he is the grandmaster and because we are americans translating chinese that this is just a matter of perspective as to whether he is or not the grandmaster or a fifth level blackbelt....

is it possible???for emphasis

[Radhnoti]

Sorry to drag you in there JP. I only meant to reference the fact that certain parts of the letter are verifiably true.

[Radhnoti]

TTM, I've read elsewhere that 5 blackbelt ranks were all they had in Indonesia. However, I think that reasoning is hurt by Hiang's belt level being 7th. There COULD be an argument made that when GM Sin was elevated they changed the system rankings in Indonesia to reflect that, but that seems a bit weak as well.
Just my opinion, worth no more than paid for.

[Citong Shifu]

I have a friend in Isshinryu that does a similar kata called Sanchin as well...
Here's some comments about Sanchin from an Isshinryu site:

"Sanchin practice in regards to the muscle and breath control through dynamic tension does date back through the Chinese Martial Arts to their origin as to the teachings of Bodhidharma. This is in regards to the techniques involved yet the actual Sanchin kata as we practice it today comes from Miyagi who transformed the dynamic tension kata he learned into today's Isshinryu Sanchin Kata.
The techniques and principles behind the Sanchin kata do come from China. Possibly a Crane or Wing Chun practice. Yamaguchi did create a form of Sanchin yet so did others. If you look at some southern Chinese White Crane styles, you'll find some version of Sam Chien. Uechi Ryu has its own version and my opinion is it is probably closer to the original Chinese version using more open hand techniques. Plus, the breathing is nowhere near as "hard" or "harsh" as you will see in the Yamaguchi line of Goju Ryu. There version is much more "natural" in its breathing compared to what most of us have probably seen.

My conclusion from my sources is Sanchin is in all probability the oldest practiced kata on Okinawa and its roots come from China. The Chinese martial arts are believed to come from Bodhidharma's teachings to the Shaolin Monks. In reality Sanchin does date back to that time in one form or another and Sanchin as we practice it today comes from Miyagi through Tatsuo Soke."

I'd have commented on it, but my dial up connection (I live too far out in the country for any reasonable high speed connection) makes it unlikely I'll ever view a video online. :D


The Sanchin form was derived from the Shaolin Louhan Sanzan (triple batte or stance) Quan set. Okinawan karate masters traveled to Southern Shaolin Temple where they trained Shaolin kungfu extensively.. After returning home to Okinawa, the form we're translated and formulated into Okinawan karate....

Sanzan or Sanchin both deal with the ultimate in martial arts power training.. These sets not only train power, but breath control, whole body stabilization ( through isometric resistance trining), Power & Qi release, & Shaolin nei gong... These sets are known as treasures. Definitely a powerful set, in many ways...

How many people here trains a Sanzan set or variation in their style.... Curious to see how common this set is.... Sanchin is very common to all Okinawan styles, but what I understand about Shaolin Sanzan is not so common anymore... well, let know if you guys have a version of this Chinese form....

[kungfujunky]

sd/csc has a similar set....

called san he chien (sp?)

works on dynamic tension breathing and rooting power as well as iron shirt training

[Golden Tiger]

Yes, we train in Iron Man/ San Ie begining about a year in or so. To most, it is a isometric /breathing control form with an explosive release at the end. There is also a chi se component but very few practice it any more.

[chud]

...shortly after he arrived in Lexington, KY in 1964 began to exaggerate his background and ranking for undetermined reasons. When his younger brother, Hiang, arrived four years later, he was calling himself the grandmaster of a system called “Shao-lin Karate-do” and the “Sin The Karate Club.”

This statement really raises an important issue IMO. I feel that a big reason for Shaolin-Do's current bad reputation is the way in which it has presented itself. Hiang's school has the name Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts, the name which the family apparently gave it. It is an interesting but innocuous name that came from their family and wouldn't raise any eyebrows. Sin The' however chose to call his school "Shaolin-Do", a name which seems contradictory (chinese/japanese), and frankly has a corny 'marketing' ring to it.
Secondly, Hiang's web site doesn't have all of the marketing buzzwords about being true and authentic shaolin; it just gives their history in a matter-of-fact way without going out of its way to make claims of authenticity or superiority.
The impression that you get with Hiang's school is that it has indo/chinese roots, bears his family name, and they do their own thing. Sin The's school gives off an aura of cheesy marketing; btw, I'm not blaming him for trying to push his school, but I think his approach backfired.
I suspect that if Shaolin Do took its original name and just did its own thing without all the hype it wouldn't be a big deal.

[tattooedmonk]

TTM, I've read elsewhere that 5 blackbelt ranks were all they had in Indonesia. However, I think that reasoning is hurt by Hiang's belt level being 7th. There COULD be an argument made that when GM Sin was elevated they changed the system rankings in Indonesia to reflect that, but that seems a bit weak as well.
Just my opinion, worth no more than paid for.this is my point... if you look at the picture of the ranking sytsem it indicates that there are 5 levels of black belt( some might view this as meaning 5th black) starting at 1-4 being 1st level....5 being 2nd level...6 being 3rd level....7 being 4th level....8-10 being 5th level... do you see what I am saying??

....and remember that in much of the literature about SD that SinThe' was given the Honorary Title..this can also be something to think about many people get honorary degrees of all sorts all the time...

as amatter of fact Master Sin Has promoted many people to honorary positions based just on time and effort( kungfu or hard work) alone...imagine that..

and it was not even based on whether they had all the rank material or not...

just the way it should be in my opinion

[tattooedmonk]

This statement really raises an important issue IMO. I feel that a big reason for Shaolin-Do's current bad reputation is the way in which it has presented itself. Hiang's school has the name Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts, the name which the family apparently gave it. It is an interesting but innocuous name that came from their family and wouldn't raise any eyebrows. Sin The' however chose to call his school "Shaolin-Do", a name which seems contradictory (chinese/japanese), and frankly has a corny 'marketing' ring to it.
Secondly, Hiang's web site doesn't have all of the marketing buzzwords about being true and authentic shaolin; it just gives their history in a matter-of-fact way without going out of its way to make claims of authenticity or superiority.
The impression that you get with Hiang's school is that it has indo/chinese roots, bears his family name, and they do their own thing. Sin The's school gives off an aura of cheesy marketing; btw, I'm not blaming him for trying to push his school, but I think his approach backfired.
I suspect that if Shaolin Do took its original name and just did its own thing without all the hype it wouldn't be a big deal.well a lot of people take things out of context....for example....when Sin The is refered to as the grandmaster of Shaolin..it should just be known that it implies Shaolin Do and not all of Shaolin.

......He is not the Grandmaster of the temple or of any other form or branch of Shaolin......this should be obvious..but a few people take it the wrong way because of their distorted perception...

The Art was known as Shaolin Tao originally.... from what I was told ....

many people seem to not understand the Chinese / Japanese thing.....and seem to be fixated on something so non intrinsic to the debate....

Jeet kune Do is a chinese concept art based on it's founder Bruce Lee and no one seems to be bothered by it..

Do and Tao mean the same exact thing ..the Japanese language is based on the Chinese language ..the characters are the same ..the definitions are the same...it is only the dialect that is different...

tell me why all this superficial sh*t matters??

and if it has back fired why is SD one of the most recognized and popular schools teaching Shaolin and has 100+ schools/ programs across the united States??

Bad press is better than no press!!!

[chud]

well a lot of people take things out of context....for example....when Sin The is refered to as the grandmaster of Shaolin..it should just be known that it implies Shaolin Do and not all of Shaolin.

......He is not the Grandmaster of the temple or of any other form or branch of Shaolin......this should be obvious..but a few people take it the wrong way because of their distorted perception...

Understood, and for the record I'd just like to say that I don't have anything against Shaolin-Do, or GM Sin; I just think that these points ought to be looked at by the organization, for the sake of its students. Maybe someone with some seniority in the system can make that happen.

The Art was known as Shaolin Tao originally.... from what I was told ....

That name makes more sense to me, and I suspect it also would to others in the CMA community. But better yet, why not leave the original family name as Sin The's brother did?

many people seem to not understand the Chinese / Japanese thing.....and seem to be fixated on something so non intrinsic to the debate....

Jeet kune Do is a chinese concept art based on it's founder Bruce Lee and no one seems to be bothered by it..

Do and Tao mean the same exact thing ..the Japanese language is based on the Chinese language ..the characters are the same ..the definitions are the same...it is only the dialect that is different...

tell me why all this superficial sh*t matters??

and if it has back fired why is SD one of the most recognized and popular schools teaching Shaolin and has 100+ schools/ programs across the united States??

Bad press is better than no press!!!

I don't deny that SD has a lot of schools and a lot of good people in the system, but it is obvious that it has a bad rep in the CMA community; I believe this is mainly because of the way it has been presented and marketed.

[JuJitsuJoe]

You know if most of the CMA people went to Bullshido they would jump all over you about your style being crap and nothing you say or do would change their minds.
It seems to be that way with Shaolin-Do here.

I have almost never met a Shaolin-Do student who was a black Belt/Sash who was rude and never one that wasnt out of shape.

The thing is they are happy with their Art and make positive changes in alot of people. Why cant you bashers just let them be? They are not doing anything to anyone are they?
To be attacked as offen as they are on here and still be as friendly as they are is a statement on their art.
Just a thought.:)

[Baqualin]

You know if most of the CMA people went to Bullshido they would jump all over you about your style being crap and nothing you say or do would change their minds.
It seems to be that way with Shaolin-Do here.

I have almost never met a Shaolin-Do student who was a black Belt/Sash who was rude and never one that wasnt out of shape.

The thing is they are happy with their Art and make positive changes in alot of people. Why cant you bashers just let them be? They are not doing anything to anyone are they?
To be attacked as offen as they are on here and still be as friendly as they are is a statement on their art.
Just a thought.:)

That's the way GMS has always taught us..thanks for your compliment....we love jujitsu too the're alot of us learning it to compliment our studies

[Judge Pen]

Sorry to drag you in there JP. I only meant to reference the fact that certain parts of the letter are verifiably true.


You didn't. I jumped in a volunteered that information... I think that the letter is probably accurate in all respects, but that's just my conjecture. It also depends on how you translate the "grandson" reference. Is it familial or martial (in teacher to student). I suppose it depends on the characters and the context.

[Judge Pen]

The Sanchin form was derived from the Shaolin Louhan Sanzan (triple batte or stance) Quan set. Okinawan karate masters traveled to Southern Shaolin Temple where they trained Shaolin kungfu extensively.. After returning home to Okinawa, the form we're translated and formulated into Okinawan karate....

Sanzan or Sanchin both deal with the ultimate in martial arts power training.. These sets not only train power, but breath control, whole body stabilization ( through isometric resistance trining), Power & Qi release, & Shaolin nei gong... These sets are known as treasures. Definitely a powerful set, in many ways...

How many people here trains a Sanzan set or variation in their style.... Curious to see how common this set is.... Sanchin is very common to all Okinawan styles, but what I understand about Shaolin Sanzan is not so common anymore... well, let know if you guys have a version of this Chinese form....

We do--I've promised Vash a long time ago that I would tape myself doing our version. I need to keep that promise.

[JuJitsuJoe]

That's the way GMS has always taught us..thanks for your compliment....we love jujitsu too the're alot of us learning it to compliment our studies

I had heard that about a few schools. Living here in Ky Ive been exposed to manny Shaolin-Do students and masters. Not took the first class of it but im thinking about giving them a try along with my Jitsu.

[Judge Pen]

You know if most of the CMA people went to Bullshido they would jump all over you about your style being crap and nothing you say or do would change their minds.
It seems to be that way with Shaolin-Do here.

I have almost never met a Shaolin-Do student who was a black Belt/Sash who was rude and never one that wasnt out of shape.

The thing is they are happy with their Art and make positive changes in alot of people. Why cant you bashers just let them be? They are not doing anything to anyone are they?
To be attacked as offen as they are on here and still be as friendly as they are is a statement on their art.
Just a thought.:)

Thanks. I know you have had plenty of opportunity to meet SD people too. It seems that every town in Eastern Kentucky have a school and there are many students running aournd up there.

[Judge Pen]

I had heard that about a few schools. Living here in Ky Ive been exposed to manny Shaolin-Do students and masters. Not took the first class of it but im thinking about giving them a try along with my Jitsu.

Shhhhh. You don't want to lose credibilty around here.

[JuJitsuJoe]

Heh, I think I pretty much figured out that there is always going to be someone who dont aprove of something I do. The fact that im happy with myself and that I do the best I can with what I have is more than enoughf for me.

I got friends that take kenpo, hapkido, BJJ, Ng Family Kung Fu, and yes Shaolin-Do. We all get along pretty well too. I think that the distance and unpersonal nature of a message board makes people come off alot less friendly than they ever would in real life to each other.

Hey Judgepen do you know David Hay? He is one of our black belts who use to train in Shaolin-Do about the same time and place as you. He is a Ky State Trooper now.

[Judge Pen]

Hey Judgepen do you know David Hay? He is one of our black belts who use to train in Shaolin-Do about the same time and place as you. He is a Ky State Trooper now.

Yes I think I do. Did he go to Clintwood high school in Virginia? If so, tell him I said hello.

[Radhnoti]

JP - "It also depends on how you translate the "grandson" reference. Is it familial or martial (in teacher to student)."

I'd considered that...but wouldn't "grandson" be one generation removed if it were speaking of teacher to student? GM Ie would have used "son" since GM Sin was his direct student, I've been told. Plus it says "To My Grandson and Disciple"...I think if that's inaccurate it wouldn't be a mistranslation but an insertion of a non-existant word. Again, not much incentive for Hiang's group to put in "grandson" when the same letter verifies inheritance of legit leadership.

I wonder how in the world some of these things get out if it contradicts the official view of both sides... :confused:

[Golden Tiger]

I wonder how in the world some of these things get out if it contradicts the official view of both sides...

The person that you mentioned sent you the translation used to be a big time SD supporter. Got his first black from M. Sin. Then he moved over to the other side and became a rabid hater of all that is SD. And on the one hand, I "proves" that M. Hiang is the other grand son, so perhaps thats the reason.

I have always wondered why they have kept the letter and not given it to the rightful person that it belongs to, along with a lot of other things that were "misplaced" after the split. Not that it really matters, just wondering.

As to the translation, in my opinion, it could go either way. I have had things translated before and when the same thing was looked at by two different people, I always got minor differences. Perhaps this is the case.

Something else that puzzled me is something Lorenzo said. That "they" paid big money for a translation of Master Sin's certificate, and they have it why? , from a company on the west coast. Why didn't Hiang just translate it? Or heck, someone at one of the buffets in town (thats where I get most of mine done). I mean its not like it was one of the dead sea scrolls. Its just a certificate written in chinese.

Oh well, the mystery shall remain...

[NastyHaggis]

I'm not saying anyone here is trying to protray GM Sin and GM Hiang as having a fued or anything, but just an opinion here (and my opinion doesn't mean squat, so ignore this if you want to) however...

Out of respect, I think we should be careful about how we word things in regards to GM Sin and GM Hiang's relationship. According to my instructor, who is a close friend and LONGTIME student of GM Sin (as in he's a Shaolin Elder Master, but not in the Shaolin-Do Association and GM Sin stays at his house every time he's in town), the two brothers did have troubles in the past but have since patched things up. Regardless of what their respective organizations and students think about each other, the brothers are in good, healthy relations with each other now. Just for the record. I just wanted to make sure we weren't trying to stir something up that didn't exist.

...Now back to the regularly scheduled retarded squabbling over details that don't really matter in the grand scheme of things...

[tattooedmonk]

I'm not saying anyone here is trying to protray GM Sin and GM Hiang as having a fued or anything, but just an opinion here (and my opinion doesn't mean squat, so ignore this if you want to) however...

Out of respect, I think we should be careful about how we word things in regards to GM Sin and GM Hiang's relationship. According to my instructor, who is a close friend and LONGTIME student of GM Sin (as in he's a Shaolin Elder Master, but not in the Shaolin-Do Association and GM Sin stays at his house every time he's in town), the two brothers did have troubles in the past but have since patched things up. Regardless of what their respective organizations and students think about each other, the brothers are in good, healthy relations with each other now. Just for the record. I just wanted to make sure we weren't trying to stir something up that didn't exist.

...Now back to the regularly scheduled retarded squabbling over details that don't really matter in the grand scheme of things...this is what master sin told me a few years back.....

oh and you know this was to stir up the pot a little more...

and now back to the retarded squabbling that does not really matter......

[kungfujunky]

...Now back to the regularly scheduled retarded squabbling over details that don't really matter in the grand scheme of things...



i couldnt agree more

with the info that has surfaced i think it has answered 95% of all the questions

[Flaca]

I'm not saying anyone here is trying to protray GM Sin and GM Hiang as having a fued or anything, but just an opinion here (and my opinion doesn't mean squat, so ignore this if you want to) however...

Out of respect, I think we should be careful about how we word things in regards to GM Sin and GM Hiang's relationship. According to my instructor, who is a close friend and LONGTIME student of GM Sin (as in he's a Shaolin Elder Master, but not in the Shaolin-Do Association and GM Sin stays at his house every time he's in town), the two brothers did have troubles in the past but have since patched things up. Regardless of what their respective organizations and students think about each other, the brothers are in good, healthy relations with each other now. Just for the record. I just wanted to make sure we weren't trying to stir something up that didn't exist....
I second that; sibling rivalry shouldn't be confused with lack of family loyalty... publicly dissing either brother will be frowned upon.
I've noticed that SD'ers have maintained respect for each other - a united front if you will - although we no longer attend the same tournaments. For my part, that is extremely regretful, as I miss seeing the other students and masters at the tournaments. JP's folks for example.

...Now back to the regularly scheduled retarded squabbling over details that don't really matter in the grand scheme of things...
Do we have to?:o

[Radhnoti]

GT - "Something else that puzzled me is something Lorenzo said. That "they" paid big money for a translation of Master Sin's certificate, and they have it why? , from a company on the west coast. Why didn't Hiang just translate it?"

I noticed that as well. One possibility it implies is that "they" don't have a native speaker available or at least that "they" aren't supported in efforts to research the documentation. Another possibility is that there was some disagreement/doubt over the correct translation and a third party had to be brought in to verify.
I know everyone in martial arts says, "Wow, my style really has some political situations!", but the The' schools are...really surprising with the depth and breadth.

[Baqualin]

I'm not saying anyone here is trying to protray GM Sin and GM Hiang as having a fued or anything, but just an opinion here (and my opinion doesn't mean squat, so ignore this if you want to) however...

Out of respect, I think we should be careful about how we word things in regards to GM Sin and GM Hiang's relationship. According to my instructor, who is a close friend and LONGTIME student of GM Sin (as in he's a Shaolin Elder Master, but not in the Shaolin-Do Association and GM Sin stays at his house every time he's in town), the two brothers did have troubles in the past but have since patched things up. Regardless of what their respective organizations and students think about each other, the brothers are in good, healthy relations with each other now. Just for the record. I just wanted to make sure we weren't trying to stir something up that didn't exist.

...Now back to the regularly scheduled retarded squabbling over details that don't really matter in the grand scheme of things...

I think we've been very respectful of both...... it was one of Hiangs students that came on here trying to stir up trouble not SD or CSC and we still didn't lose our respect even though Lorenzo did...he also mention that he has taken note on things said about his friend(M.Hiang) I'm not aware of anywhere on this thread that M. Hiang or their school has been mention in anyway by us, only by trolls trying to stir up their regular s**t...I'm very proud of all SD & CSC people and their attitudes....this is what makes Shaolin Do for real:)

[Lorenzo Valla]

Regarding the translation of Sin's certificate:

I paid for the service, not they.

It wasn't big money, at least not to me. That said, I'm not giving any of my money to SD.

The purpose of a third-party translation is so that it can be unbiased. Anyone who wants to make a supportable position in a contentious argument like this would do the same thing.

I could tell you had the "letter" translated by a waiter at a Chinese restaurant it shows. A professional version would probably make a little more sense and might help (or hurt) your position. A professional would alleviate your questions about the 'grandson' part, for example.

I hope one day you can post the letter, in Chinese of course.

Another assumption you've made is that my purpose was to inflame a sibling rivalry. Just because I've taken a position doesn't mean that its Master Hiang's. By comparison is Sin going to vouch for everything each of you has said on this forum? I'm perfectly capable of looking at the information, evaluating it and forming a position, all without someone spoonfeeding it to me.

The most interesting part of this exchange has been complete silence over my main points. System name, the "grandmaster" certificate, material taught, etc.

At some point your club is going to have to deal with this issue: There is nothing to support Sin's claim except his word. If that's all you need, then fine. Stick with that argument, its respectable and perfectly acceptable. But, to see the same people on the forum twist and turn to accommodate each new revelation that doesn't support the grandmaster theory is hard to watch.

Remember, what I post on here may be a position shared by others, but in the end its mine alone to defend, support or change.

[godzillakungfu]

Wow, you are very insulting.

Funny how a chinese waiter is less knowledgable then your professional service. I find that extremely insulting because, many of my Asian freinds were waiters and have college degrees.

So, that "waiter" may actually be more adept then your paid for service.

Funny thing is every foreign language teacher I have had says the native speakers are much better for translation. They know the slang and different meanings then the professionals.

I think you spent a large sum of money because, you kept going from translator to translator until someone said what you wanted to hear.

[Lorenzo Valla]

The only thing insulting on this forum is the level of intellectual discourse.

A professional translator is just that. I submitted the results from the first service I used and I challenge you to do the same. The name of the company I used was Lingua Solutions. The translator was native Chinese.

Native speakers are absolutely the best people to get, but they must also be professionally fluent in the language they are translating into, in this case English.

If I wanted a professional translation of a Spanish document for use in research, I would not seek out a waiter at a Mexican restaurant. Not because they aren't capable, but because their work can't be supported. I go to Mexican restaurants to eat. I seek out trained, qualifed linguists for translations.

[godzillakungfu]

Obviously you missed the point. Pull up your shorts your bigotry is showing.

Oh and I see what you are doing. Gene said watch the insults. You are trying to say the board is dumb so you can get banned to prove your point.

[NastyHaggis]

Just to clarify, the very first thing I said in my previous post was:

"I'm not saying anyone here is trying to portray GM Sin and GM Hiang as having a fued or anything, but just an opinion here (and my opinion doesn't mean squat, so ignore this if you want to) however..."

So, I'm NOT insinuating that anyone here is trying to start a family fued, nor did I ever intend to. I came right out of the gate clarifying that was not the intent of my post. A slow, careful reading of each post will assure a greater chance that no one is misunderstood and alleviate many tempers I would wager.

I am just encouraging us to continue to be friendly, informative, and to withhold from any personal attacks on each other. Assumptions about personal relationships are advised against, while informed, logical, discussions about issues that are verifiable are recommended. Intelligent, cooperative discussion is very much appreciated, whether or not two or more participants are in agreement with each other.

[Golden Tiger]

At the risk of being banned, I will reply, trying not to pick and choose as I was accused of.

Regarding the translation of Sin's certificate:

I paid for the service, not they.

It wasn't big money, at least not to me. That said, I'm not giving any of my money to SD.


In the first post, you said:"Since the cost to have this certificate translated was not insignificant, I am not going to provide the entire text. " Either it was not insignificant (ie. significant) or is wasnt big money. Which was it? And if the job was already paid for, how would telling all be any more or less expensive that telling a line or two?


The purpose of a third-party translation is so that it can be unbiased. Anyone who wants to make a supportable position in a contentious argument like this would do the same thing.

Please provide a scanned translation of the document. Since it is obvious that any point you make is extremely biased, only a copy of the transcript will convince me otherwise. To make a contentious argument based on evidence, you have to provide said evidnece to back up your claim.


I could tell you had the "letter" translated by a waiter at a Chinese restaurant it shows. A professional version would probably make a little more sense and might help (or hurt) your position. A professional would alleviate your questions about the 'grandson' part, for example.

You have two people confused my friend. I was talking about using the lowely lady at the buffet as a translator but it was Rad that posted the letter, translated by the #1 student of the ex #1 student of M. Hiang.

I hope one day you can post the letter, in Chinese of course.

Since the letter is in the posession of someone besides the rightful owner, I doubt that will happen.


Another assumption you've made is that my purpose was to inflame a sibling rivalry. Just because I've taken a position doesn't mean that its Master Hiang's. By comparison is Sin going to vouch for everything each of you has said on this forum? I'm perfectly capable of looking at the information, evaluating it and forming a position, all without someone spoonfeeding it to me.


Its obvious that you are now or were a student of M. Hiang's. As far as flaming the fire, there is none to flame. But that said, you have attacked the credibility of M. Hiangs elder brother, two senior students in SD and you think that if it got back to them, it wouldn't start some crap??? Being as in the know as you are, you have to know that there is no love lost on either side.


The most interesting part of this exchange has been complete silence over my main points. System name, the "grandmaster" certificate, material taught, etc.

Read post 1 thru what ever this one is...its there, all of it.


At some point your club is going to have to deal with this issue: There is nothing to support Sin's claim except his word. If that's all you need, then fine. Stick with that argument, its respectable and perfectly acceptable. But, to see the same people on the forum twist and turn to accommodate each new revelation that doesn't support the grandmaster theory is hard to watch.


Seeing the SD and Sin The has been going strong for 40 some odd years, I'll place my bets on M. Sin.

Remember, what I post on here may be a position shared by others, but in the end its mine alone to defend, support or change.

Biting my tongue on this one.

[Golden Tiger]

On a happier note...

HAPPY BIRTHDAY Baqualin!

They say you don't get older, you only get better.....guess you proved them wrong!:D

[Flaca]

Another assumption you've made is that my purpose was to inflame a sibling rivalry. Just because I've taken a position doesn't mean that its Master Hiang's. By comparison is Sin going to vouch for everything each of you has said on this forum? I'm perfectly capable of looking at the information, evaluating it and forming a position, all without someone spoonfeeding it to me..
Assumption? I think your purpose was to question M Sin's integrity, and M Hiang probably would not appreciate it.


The most interesting part of this exchange has been complete silence over my main points. System name, the "grandmaster" certificate, material taught, etc.

At some point your club is going to have to deal with this issue: There is nothing to support Sin's claim except his word. If that's all you need, then fine. Stick with that argument, its respectable and perfectly acceptable. But, to see the same people on the forum twist and turn to accommodate each new revelation that doesn't support the grandmaster theory is hard to watch.

Remember, what I post on here may be a position shared by others, but in the end its mine alone to defend, support or change.
Grandmaster, Club Name, A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

I don't understand why you think we have anything to deal with. We do not question M Sin's word, why should we? We also don't spend class time worrying about other clubs, and it's strange to have 220 pages of other clubs worrying about the integrity of SD.

I'm gonna go roll my shins and hit a post. Now that's worth spending class time on. :D Eau d'A&B anyone?

[godzillakungfu]

I'm gonna go roll my shins and hit a post. Now that's worth spending class time on. :D Eau d'A&B anyone?

Hey you are going to make some of the westerners jealous. We still use ZG for iron bone training.:mad:

Although, I do have A&B tee hee.:eek:

No, I do not have the recipe, put the weapons down.:)

[tattooedmonk]

to Baqualin...hope you are having a great day..... !!!!

[Baqualin]

On a happier note...

HAPPY BIRTHDAY Baqualin!

They say you don't get older, you only get better.....guess you proved them wrong!:D

Thank You very much GT.......I have to say my 37 yr. old girl friend thinks I'm getting better (got a little Rudy in my blood) ;)

[Baqualin]

Hey you are going to make some of the westerners jealous. We still use ZG for iron bone training.:mad:

Although, I do have A&B tee hee.:eek:

No, I do not have the recipe, put the weapons down.:)

Don't forget C:)

[tattooedmonk]

a friend of mine from china says that it might mean: great ( Tai ),quiet(Djin), master( Su Kong)...

*****oh if anyone want some herbal remedies or internal and external elixers for iron bone training let me know through pm ...****

[Baqualin]

to Baqualin...hope you are having a great day..... !!!!

Thank you also TTM...it's really been fun getting to know you guys in the short time I've been on here...hopfully one day we can meet each other on less defensive grounds.:D

[Golden Tiger]

a friend of mine from china says that it might mean: great ( Tai ),quiet(Djin), master( Su Kong)...

Your friend is probably wrong. Send to a professional silly man!:rolleyes:

[Baqualin]

Regarding the translation of Sin's certificate:

I paid for the service, not they.

It wasn't big money, at least not to me. That said, I'm not giving any of my money to SD.

The purpose of a third-party translation is so that it can be unbiased. Anyone who wants to make a supportable position in a contentious argument like this would do the same thing.

I could tell you had the "letter" translated by a waiter at a Chinese restaurant it shows. A professional version would probably make a little more sense and might help (or hurt) your position. A professional would alleviate your questions about the 'grandson' part, for example.

I hope one day you can post the letter, in Chinese of course.

Another assumption you've made is that my purpose was to inflame a sibling rivalry. Just because I've taken a position doesn't mean that its Master Hiang's. By comparison is Sin going to vouch for everything each of you has said on this forum? I'm perfectly capable of looking at the information, evaluating it and forming a position, all without someone spoonfeeding it to me.

The most interesting part of this exchange has been complete silence over my main points. System name, the "grandmaster" certificate, material taught, etc.

At some point your club is going to have to deal with this issue: There is nothing to support Sin's claim except his word. If that's all you need, then fine. Stick with that argument, its respectable and perfectly acceptable. But, to see the same people on the forum twist and turn to accommodate each new revelation that doesn't support the grandmaster theory is hard to watch.

Remember, what I post on here may be a position shared by others, but in the end its mine alone to defend, support or change.

Well it's my birthday so I'm not going to say to much today, but I must inform you that you have Insulted and Dishonored GM Su Kong, GMIe, GMSin, M. Hiang, their colleagues and anybody else who is studing this lineage that you claim to be a part of:o

One more thing....using material taught as one of your main points makes absolutely no sense what so ever....apparently you have no idea what we have been taught on the other side....your right we didn't discuss that one....didn't have to:p

Please remember we were there and we still are!
Will not talk about M. Hiang...that would be disrespectful of OUR lineage:cool:

[Baqualin]

Hope I didn't just get banned on my birthday:eek:

[Baqualin]

But, to see the same people on the forum twist and turn to accommodate each new revelation that doesn't support the grandmaster theory is hard to watch. [QUOTE]


Go ahead and start a new thread and throw your theory out there...the sharks on these forums are probally tired of SD meat anyway.:)

[Lorenzo Valla]

First of all I just want to say that my saying "you" on my posts wasn't directed at any single person, just didn't split things up.

At the end of your comments to me I took note of what I think is a perfectly reasonable and respectable position. Being involved in the club with Sin for 40 years is good enough. I couldn't agree more and I'm happy for all of you.

As far as the translation goes, the service was Lingua Solutions. You can find them on the internet with any search engine. That's how I did it. The price was reasonable to me, but not free and I'm not going to give it away. I would encourage you to do the same. They should charge you less than they did me because its already completed. The service is confidential, but you can mention that you know it was recently done, etc...

I guess I'm having a hard time following what's going on with you guys. On this forum you have stated who/what you think your club is about. You've never posted a single piece of verifiable evidence to support it. Yet, according to your reply, I must post all of my evidence otherwise my argument is no good. By the way I do recognize my bias, do you recognize your own? I've told you how/where to go to get the translation, so please go ahead. Anecdotes, hearsay, a student of a student said 10 years ago, Sin says, Bill says, none of that makes up a well-constructed logical argument. Ideally you would bring your proof/evidence, I would bring mine and we could debate. I've given you a preview of a small part of mine and would like to be shown the same courtesy by you.

I underestimated the apparent lack of linguists on this forum. My comment about the Chinese waiter was not meant to be pejorative, but I understand why it was taken that way. I honestly wanted to get a professional, unbiased, third-party translation because I wasn't sure what was on it or not.

Maybe one day you'll realize that not everything is about the The brothers. I'm entitled to my opinion, and just because that opinion may not be shared by one or both doesn't mean I have to stay silent.

For what its worth, I'll repeat myself. This is my own opinion. I have said several times that I respect your opinion of your teacher.....I just don't happen to believe his claims.

[Flaca]

Don't forget C:)

:(
Blech. I usually forget that.

Happy Birthday.

[Golden Tiger]

At the end of your comments to me I took note of what I think is a perfectly reasonable and respectable position. Being involved in the club with Sin for 40 years is good enough. I couldn't agree more and I'm happy for all of you.


Why thank you. Yes, I have been around since the days at the Buel Armory so it has been a wild ride.

By the way I do recognize my bias, do you recognize your own? I've told you how/where to go to get the translation, so please go ahead. Anecdotes, hearsay, a student of a student said 10 years ago, Sin says, Bill says, none of that makes up a well-constructed logical argument. Ideally you would bring your proof/evidence, I would bring mine and we could debate. I've given you a preview of a small part of mine and would like to be shown the same courtesy by you.


Here's the thing. 99.9% of what I say is from PERSONAL experience. Not what I heard from someone else, but what I saw and lived through.

As for a well-constructed logical arguement, so far, your has been based on here-say and opinion with the exception of the translation of a certificate that no one is disputing. We all agree that what you said is what the certificate says.

For what its worth, I'll repeat myself. This is my own opinion. I have said several times that I respect your opinion of your teacher.....I just don't happen to believe his claims.

And that is fine. I too have an opinion, based on being there when a lot of things happened.

We will just have to agree to disagree on certain things...noo harm no foul.

[Citong Shifu]

Why thank you. Yes, I have been around since the days at the Buel Armory so it has been a wild ride.



Here's the thing. 99.9% of what I say is from PERSONAL experience. Not what I heard from someone else, but what I saw and lived through.

As for a well-constructed logical arguement, so far, your has been based on here-say and opinion with the exception of the translation of a certificate that no one is disputing. We all agree that what you said is what the certificate says.



And that is fine. I too have an opinion, based on being there when a lot of things happened.

We will just have to agree to disagree on certain things...noo harm no foul.


I think everyone is kicking around a dead horse at this point. Furthermore, I dont think that there hasnt been anything "NOT" discussed or debated. This thread has become rediculously redundant!!! Regardless, what you, me, & SD people think about lineage and marketing claims, etc, it doesnt really matter.. all of us know who we are and what we're about... I think we all have at one point or another been bias to our art and marketing. So What! Lets end this thread and start a new one that will discuss training methods or principles between our styles, or something more beneficial to all of us.... I think we should have Gene lock out or delete this thread and start a more productive thread on various art differences / similarities. What do all you guys think?????

CS

[Lorenzo Valla]

Thanks for your comments. While the certificate is the most obvious piece of evidence, I think I brought up several other items that weren't hearsay. Below are some of the things that caused me to reach my conclusion. Some are small items, some not.

The name of the school and system Sin studied under was the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School.
-- He has never called his school this name.
-- The certificates issued to his students through most of the 1980s (unsure of exact date) do not contain the characters "Shaolin", "Chung Yen" or "Hiang Kwang The"

To date there has been no certificate produced naming him the Grandmaster.

His published training dates do not correspond with his certificate.

The material on the certificate doesn't correspond with the published info.

His legal effort in the early 1990s to copyright the system as the Grandmaster was dismissed.

Master Hiang kept a separate school for most of the time he has been in the U.S.
-- Neither one ever taught the other's class.
-- He was promoted in 1978 by one of his and Sin's still living former teachers.
-- He publicly refused Sin's promotion in 1983.

I think these items are fairly established and I've kept them to simple statements. No one item is proof positive, but together they indicate a troubling pattern arguing against the current claims.

Rather than replying point by point to the above, could you offer your evidence arguing for Sin's claim? Not a challenge.....just a request so we can move the dialogue further along.

[Baqualin]

I think everyone is kicking around a dead horse at this point. Furthermore, I dont think that there hasnt been "NOT" discussed or debated. This thread has become rediculously redundant!!! Regardless, what you, me, & SD people think about lineage and marketing claims, etc, it doesnt really matter.. all of us know who we are and what we're about... I think we all have at one point or another have been bias to our art and marketing. So What! Lets end this thread and start a new one that will discuss training methods or principles between our styles, or something more beneficial to all of us.... I think we should have Gene lock out or delete this thread and start a more productive thread on various art differences / similarities. What do all you guys think?????

CS

NOW THAT'S THE BEST STATEMENT I'VE READ ON THIS THREAD YET:D
I'm in....I'll even invite lorenzo....he should have some constructive criticism:)

[Judge Pen]

Hold on to the A. The formula is going to get scarce.

[Baqualin]

Thanks for your comments. While the certificate is the most obvious piece of evidence, I think I brought up several other items that weren't hearsay. Below are some of the things that caused me to reach my conclusion. Some are small items, some not.

The name of the school and system Sin studied under was the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School.
-- He has never called his school this name.
-- The certificates issued to his students through most of the 1980s (unsure of exact date) do not contain the characters "Shaolin", "Chung Yen" or "Hiang Kwang The"

To date there has been no certificate produced naming him the Grandmaster.

His published training dates do not correspond with his certificate.

The material on the certificate doesn't correspond with the published info.



Just one question.....where's Hiang's Certificate naming him Grand Master:confused:
His legal effort in the early 1990s to copyright the system as the Grandmaster was dismissed.

Master Hiang kept a separate school for most of the time he has been in the U.S.
-- Neither one ever taught the other's class.
-- He was promoted in 1978 by one of his and Sin's still living former teachers.
-- He publicly refused Sin's promotion in 1983.

I think these items are fairly established and I've kept them to simple statements. No one item is proof positive, but together they indicate a troubling pattern arguing against the current claims.

Rather than replying point by point to the above, could you offer your evidence arguing for Sin's claim? Not a challenge.....just a request so we can move the dialogue further along.



Just one question.....where's Hiang's Certificate naming him Grand Master:confused:

[Lorenzo Valla]

Thanks for your invitation and I appreciate it. Its entirely up to the regular posters whether or not to close the thread. It has probably gone on a little too long. When I started this, it was really because I had never seen it before, read it and thought some things needed to be corrected. Of course that's where we tend to disagree. Either way, I doubt I'll have the time to spend keeping up with this forum anyway. Seems to take a lot of time and at the end, I'm not sure what the goal is anyway.

[Lorenzo Valla]

Baqualin,

I'll work on that request and its a reasonable one. But my point was to present my argument and then to consider yours. Pretend you can convince me of your position. Don't just argue against me, argue for your guy.

[Judge Pen]

Thanks for your comments. While the certificate is the most obvious piece of evidence, I think I brought up several other items that weren't hearsay. Below are some of the things that caused me to reach my conclusion. Some are small items, some not.

As I haven't read the certificate or had it translated (by a professional service or the nice lady at the buffett) what you say the translation actually says is hearsay without the supporting information. If you want to argue that your version is true (it may be; I don't know) then don't take umbridge with those that would like to see the best evidence of your averments.

The name of the school and system Sin studied under was the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School.

Again, says who? You? Hiang? It may very well be, but, assuming for the sake of argument that this is correct, the fact that Hiang The now uses that name when Sin The doesn't legitmize your account any more than using "Do" instead of "tao" makes SD Japanese. You can call a mule a racehorse, but he still won't win the Derby.
-- He has never called his school this name.
Ok. Your point?
-- The certificates issued to his students through most of the 1980s (unsure of exact date) do not contain the characters "Shaolin", "Chung Yen" or "Hiang Kwang The"
See above.

To date there has been no certificate produced naming him the Grandmaster.

I've heard so much about this letter out there.... can you confirm or deny that you guys have this letter and will not return it? If so, that sounds a bit fishy to me...

His published training dates do not correspond with his certificate.

The material on the certificate doesn't correspond with the published info.

Taking your word for that

His legal effort in the early 1990s to copyright the system as the Grandmaster was dismissed.

Cases can be dimissed for numerous reasons. The Court no longer has the paperwork but the log bookes indicate that an Order of Compromise and Dismissal was entered. I know a bit about this. This means the case was settled out of court for whatever reason. Cases are "dismissed" all the time for reasons that don't go to the merits of the case.

Master Hiang kept a separate school for most of the time he has been in the U.S.
-- Neither one ever taught the other's class.
-- He was promoted in 1978 by one of his and Sin's still living former teachers.
-- He publicly refused Sin's promotion in 1983.

Again, I'll have to rely upon hearsay on that. I've always heard that they did teach under the same school.

I think these items are fairly established and I've kept them to simple statements. No one item is proof positive, but together they indicate a troubling pattern arguing against the current claims.

Arguments will always be here. With no proof positive, we can argue all day and not get anywhere.

Rather than replying point by point to the above, could you offer your evidence arguing for Sin's claim? Not a challenge.....just a request so we can move the dialogue further along.

I'm not trying to prove Sin's claim or disprove yours. I do take umbridge with the initial tone of your post and the obvious axe you have to grind here. I've been contributing to the SD train-wreck on KFO for as long as anybody (Save Rad) and no one has ever taken pot shots at Hiang The as far as I can remember. My teacher always speaks highly of Hiang The and the classes he took from him way back in the day. Why do you feel the need to come here and open up old wounds and poor salt on them???

[kwaichang]

Mr Valla,

Please scan and post your receipt. I will pay for the translation and would like for you to Fed ex it to me cod for the amount you paid that company. When I receive it along with a copy of the letter I will also have a translation done by a Linguistics professor of Chinese that I know Thanks KC

[Lorenzo Valla]

I'm sorry you feel the way you do about this situation. Do you have anything to support your claim. The claim that SD posters to this forum have made repeatedly for over two years? That's all we're talking about.

There's no point in my posting anything from any translation service, because you guys will just say its wrong, inaccurate, etc. That's why I've suggested you get your own done.

I think its always interesting to see the SD posters attitude about Hiang. At the bottom of your post you say, "no one has taken a pot shot at Hiang The as far as I can remember." At the top of the post you accuse him of stealing Sin's personal letter.

Similar comments abound through the thread. He got kicked out of the club. He's afraid to go back to Indonesia. He stays quiet because he's so ashamed. He's so desperate that he calls Master Ie his grandfather. "Oh but we respect him so"

I don't think anyone would call that or what that as respect.

[Lorenzo Valla]

I would prefer the following method.

Lingua Solutions, Inc.

Translation, Localization, Consulting

Phone: (818) 380-3008

Fax: (818) 743-7411

www.linguainc.com

(Or whoever you want to use....maybe someone different to get a different look.)

They offer free quotes and same day service if the signed invoice is faxed to them prior to 1000 pacific time.

This is a simpler and cheaper method involving a lot fewer moving parts. Oh, forgot to say this several posts ago, they send their work back to you by email so the process is very fast. You can get a copy of the certificate by going to the page on www.sinthe.com and cutting and pasting. That's what I did.

Hope that help.

[The Willow Sword]

I think we should have Gene lock out or delete this thread and start a more productive thread on various art differences / similarities. What do all you guys think?????

i dont think that this will happen because if i remember correctly his posts in the past he doesnt want alot of SD threads popping up choking the bandwidth. keep the Sd thread here where it is contained. It still has not topped the "got qi girls thread"

i say keep it here and do NOT delete or lock this thread. it is and WILL be an interesting archive and can be referenced by anyone wanting to know more about what, in my opinion they should avoid:) .

Peace,TWS

[Baqualin]

Baqualin,

I'll work on that request and its a reasonable one. But my point was to present my argument and then to consider yours. Pretend you can convince me of your position. Don't just argue against me, argue for your guy.

I was making a point that this is a brother thing and they settled it....and your trying to open it back up:confused:

[kwaichang]

I have cut and pasted as you did I will get a quote I also am printing a copy for my Linguistics professor to translate.
Quick question did they translate it in modern or Traditional Chinese ? KC

[Lorenzo Valla]

Their project manager stated that the text was in "older style Chinese" and in fact it cost a little more. Plus the legibility of the copy was such that the linguist had to work longer to get it done.

[Radhnoti]

LV - "His published training dates do not correspond with his certificate."

It was mentioned as a possibility that GM Sin trained informally prior to being accepted into the school. If GM Ie was his grandfather that makes even more sense.

I think Hiang is using the Indonesian club name. I've spoken to Senior Masters who indicate they were there when shaolin-do was picked as an official name. This does contradict what was said in GM Sin's book...that Shaolin-do was used in Indonesia. Had that been so it's fairly certain the shaolin-do name would have been used earlier on. It is possible that shaolin-do was always the name GM Sin intended to use for HIS club...and the karate club stuff was eliminated with the intent of unity/clarity. Either way that does seem to be a misstatement.

As GT said, the translated letter I offered up was posted online by a student of GM Hiang. I have no idea who has the letter now, I only know that it offered up obscure facts that have been shown to be correct. In my opinion, that, plus the lack of any clear "victor" should the letter show itself to be true, makes it's likelihood of veracity much greater.

I also think that Sin earned 5th and (later) Hiang earned 7th...Hiang passing Sin in "original school rank" occured after Sin moved to the U.S. A student of Hiang offered up a letter