Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

CS - I could not agree with you more. I would love to attend and compete in such an event. It would be great if my fellow SD students did as well. Although I am not an example of traditional SD. To compensate for my cerebral palsy, my teachers have modified my forms and techniques a great deal. However I love competition, and meeting other martial artists so I'll make the effort to get there. Hopefully a few of my more talented friends will come with me. JP, KC, GT, Baq, what do you guys think?


I've been thinking about if I would ever compete in a tournment again with my priorities being re-alinged, but I would love to go with you. How much time in advance I'd have to train (and how my new child affects my training time) will play a huge factor on if I watch or I participate. I hate to go and not participate. I bet I can talk KC into going, but I think he has given up competing as well.

That leaves Baq and GT. I wonder if we can get GT to come out of the closet. ... :p

[kungfujunky]

ill do it

can you pm or email me the details please

thx

[Flying-Monkey]

"The majority of the forms I have seen were on Master Mullin's old website. That site has removed those videos."

"To be honest, the forms I have seen were not preformed well. Not in the way of a person with poor physical ability, but in the way that the people don’t understand what he is doing."

FM - I have to disagree with you here. I have seen Master Mullins demonstrate many forms many times. The man has great form, speed, and power. I have also watched him spar other Masters. He can apply what he knows as well. I'm not entirely uneducated as to what makes CMA different from JMA, KMA, MMA, whatever. I agree that there are some SD videos that do not look as CMA-like as they should. However, Master Mullins is not an example of this. I invite you to post someone you feel is a good example of what you feel a CMA form should look like. If possible find one that is similar to a SD form you have viewed. That way your critique will have some actual points for comparison. I also invite you to go to the link I posted a few pages back and read the article concerning the real history of all CMA. Then you would realize how pointless it is for anyone to say that their lineage is "authentic". You and others throw around what "the CMA community thinks" a lot. Did it ever occur to you that they might be wrong? Did it ever occur to you that their assertions of what is "real" or "authentic" may be just as big a marketing technique as any other art uses to attract students? The same "authentic" teachers you asked about SD's forms may have financially based motives for denigrating another art. Also, many are quick to say that SD is not CMA simply because the practitioner is in a gi and barefoot. If that is not the sole basis for their criticism, it often colors their opinion much more than it should. I stand by what I have said many times. There are no more pure lineages. Everything can be disputed somewhere by someone. All martial arts have traveled and grown so far from their places and times of origin that it is just plain silly to debate lineage at all. As to debating body mechanics, stances, etc. that's a matter of opinion much the same as rather or not we like the same painting or not. I have seen videos and live demonstrations by "authentic" CMA practitioners that were just as awful IMO as you think the SD forms are. The "my style is more real than your style" thing has been around as long as CMA. We're just continuing the tradition. :D


There have been many examples posted by others that show what kung fu should look like. Why don't you post some SD videos that you feel are true kung fu.

This time around I made no mention of gi.

That article about what is authentic is a little silly in my opinion. In that type of reasoning, nothing in any discipline is authentic. It also starts to leave practicality. I gives me the feeling of the argument that 1+1 does not always equal 2. Yes it is true that it does not, but in most cases it does equal 2. If you feel I am not understanding the article correctly, please explain. Which would you feel is kung fu: Wing Chun or Okinawan karate? Yes, Okinawan karate has a base in white crane, but it is not kung fu. I have seen some karate forms that have sections of kung fu forms in it, but it is not kung fu.

As for marketing, do you think it is possible that your GM is using Shaolin for marketing? Kung fu became popular in the late 60's. I grew up seeing how cool Shaolin and kung fu looked. I feel your GM used Shaolin to get more students.

WUSHU

Wushu is a different debate all together. AND there are a lot of people who feel that wushu is only a shadow of what it use to be.

BAD kung fu

I agree that there is a lot of bad REAL kung fu. There are guys in my style that i feel are crappy. However, it is because of lack of ability or not enough training or just plain laziness. Plus there are master who are making false claims too. However, the subject of this thread is SD.

Could the teachers I asked be wrong? Yes, but I truly don't think so. Could they be lying? Maybe, but i doubt it.

What I am trying to relate is that I don't think SD is real kung fu. Please post some videos of what you feel are good examples of SD kung fu.

[Flying-Monkey]

There are currently about, oh to make a guess, 1000 plus that support SD's claims. With a lot (maybe 100 or so) with 20 to 30 years MA experience. Whats your point?:D


Please tell me a few names of some these supporter that are not a part of SD.

Why does it seem that the only people supporting SD on this forum are SD guys or guy who were in SD?

I PM some people and a lot of them don't even bother with SD, because they feel SD is like a cult and it is like arguing with a tree.

[kungfujunky]

I agree that there is a lot of bad REAL kung fu. There are guys in my style that i feel are crappy. However, it is because of lack of ability or not enough training or just plain laziness. Plus there are master who are making false claims too. However, the subject of this thread is SD.

Could the teachers I asked be wrong? Yes, but I truly don't think so. Could they be lying? Maybe, but i doubt it.

What I am trying to relate is that I don't think SD is real kung fu. Please post some videos of what you feel are good examples of SD kung fu.

you said it here yourself.

could your techers be wrong...yes but you dont believe so

why is it ok for you and not for us? anyone can be wrong or misled...but after studying wit them and seeing them perform we dont think they are.

the same way you dont think you are.

please post some videos of what is supposedly good kung fu

(which by the way not one of us can claim to know since the temples didnt have video back in the day so we have no basis for comparison whatsoever besides each individual teachers interpretation of an oral tradition that they learned)

the point is moot really

sd is real. we have good eggs and bad eggs just like any other system.

the fact is it works for the thousands of us that study it.

[Citong Shifu]

Its a gracious invitation and one that I hope some SD people take you up on. I recently competed in an open tournament but it was a smaller more local event. I didn't feel that politics were an issue and I thought I was judged fairly. Most of the judges didn't even know I was SD. The Kwan Dao video and the fights that I posted were from that event.

Is your tournament in Southern Illinois? I will pass along the invitation to my teacher if you want to send me the details. I don't know if they will be interested (they seem to not care about accpetance etc as much as I do) but I will tell them.


Hey guys, I will send you all more info once everything has been finalized or more finalized....

JP - I hear you... But, I want everyone to know or understand that this invtation has nothing to do with "accepting any paticular style/system" , purely an invitation to show / introduce CMA styles....

Like I'v stated before, I could really care less about lineage claims, etc. I do however at times seem to question claims made due to marketing or advertising a particular style/art.... But, life goes on, right.....

Hopefully, we can all get together and do our thing. Who knows, might just be fun...

Sifu Ron.

[Flying-Monkey]

you said it here yourself.

could your techers be wrong...yes but you dont believe so

why is it ok for you and not for us? anyone can be wrong or misled...but after studying wit them and seeing them perform we dont think they are.

the same way you dont think you are.

please post some videos of what is supposedly good kung fu

(which by the way not one of us can claim to know since the temples didnt have video back in the day so we have no basis for comparison whatsoever besides each individual teachers interpretation of an oral tradition that they learned)

the point is moot really

sd is real. we have good eggs and bad eggs just like any other system.

the fact is it works for the thousands of us that study it.

Post some videos! The Xia and others have posted some videos.

I want to see what you, a SD man, thinks is a good example of SD.

That is why I usually write "in my opinion". I do this because I feel that anything is possible. I even feel that it is possible there is a god and that god is a potato that lives under the sea. Now, I feel that it is strongly unlike that if there is a god , it is a potato that lives under the sea or that the Sun is a big flash light or that the Moon core is cheese or that SD is REAl kung fu.

I am sorry about that last example. It was in poor taste and kind of a cheap shot, but i think you understand my point.

I feel the sam about the teacher's opinions, too. They could be wrong, but I doubt it. I have not met or spoken to any kung fu master that support SD that is not in any way connected to SD.

BJJ works. Mauy Thai works. They are not kung fu. SD works, but it is not kung fu.

[Baqualin]

Flying-Monkey,
First thanks for discussing this in an intelligent way!!
Second I'm reposting a response from earlier today

FM I highly respect your style FYI, but Go back a few pages on this thread and you'll see reference to the National Geographic special, Fight Science, view the you tube link....the Chinese wu shu champion is seen doing two of our lower level SD forms move for move....is he not doing real Kung Fu:)

[Baqualin]

The Xia posted video links (you tube) of other Martial Artist, not himself or someone from his school or system.

[tattooedmonk]

kung fu is proficiancy acheived through hard work, time and effort ,or aquired skill.

Now if someone practices karate, judo, muay thai, etc and applys hardwork, time and effort, or aquired skill does this mean that they practice kung fu ??

yes it does.....

anyone that applys hardwork, time and effort or aquired skill to any task is said to have kung fu.... you can know kung fu of masonry , painting, racing cars, or drinking beer...... it does not matter...

the level of kung fu can only be measured by the amount of time and effort or hard work or aquired skill that is applied ..

but to say that SD is not kung fu based on the outward appearence, the lineage, or the japanese flavor is just stupid...it really shows the lack of understanding as to what true Shaolin is and lacks any intellectual depth into the real meaning behind the term kung fu...

for all you keyboard martial artist that have only experinced SD online checkout a class or two ,study with a blackbelt or 2 or master, get yourself man handled hard style and you tell me that they do not know Shaolin kung fu!!!

for all of you who do not get it......you never will ... for those who still are struggling with it ......let go of your resitence.....for all of you who have...... good job...and for those of you who already knew ...keep up the good work!!!

[Baqualin]

Hey guys, I will send you all more info once everything has been finalized or more finalized....

JP - I hear you... But, I want everyone to know or understand that this invtation has nothing to do with "accepting any paticular style/system" , purely an invitation to show / introduce CMA styles....

Like I'v stated before, I could really care less about lineage claims, etc. I do however at times seem to question claims made due to marketing or advertising a particular style/art.... But, life goes on, right.....

Hopefully, we can all get together and do our thing. Who knows, might just be fun...

Sifu Ron.
Hey CS, I'm in, I was already planning to meet you someday, since your from my neck of the woods. Will there be an internal division...that's all I do now.

Maybe JP, Kwaichang, Bent Monk & I can car pool....GT can sneak in the back door and make sure we have proper form;)

[Baqualin]

Well said. I have been studing shaolindo for some time and it is and always will be the way I have chosen. But not to get off subject, but does anyoune know if
Gm Sin plans on teaching all the forms of certain systems(White crane 18 forms, Ground monkey 18 forms, etc.) instead of just one form here and there?

Ask me in class....no class this sat. I'm testing ..not sure if second gym will be open:D

[The Xia]

Here is the thing. What about Shaolin Do makes you feel it's real Chinese martial arts?

To me, everything about it looks the opposite. The lineage not only goes against the history put forth by styles that are unquestionably Chinese, but in my opinion, it's a silly story as well. It claims to be authentic Southern Temple Kung Fu, then why is it that it has a hodgepodge of forms from various styles, including forms from non-Shaolin based styles like Tai Chi Chuan. Every expert on authentic Chinese styles I've heard, that has seen Shaolin Do in action, says that it isn't real kung fu. And as Flying Monkey said, many of these people said it looked like Kenpo.

[The Xia]

The Xia posted video links (you tube) of other Martial Artist, not himself or someone from his school or system.
First of all, you don't know anything about me so who are you to say that person wasn't from my system, school, or whatever. I can say he is my sifu, I can say I do that style. I can name any Kung Fu style and say I do it or I can say I don't do any Kung Fu styles. I can say I did so and so style(s) in the past but this is what I'm doing now. I can say I do absolutely nothing and never have done anything. I can say I do so and so style(s) and now teach. I can say I did so and so style(s) but I don't teach. I can say any number of these things, and more, without you knowing if it's true or false. This is the internet. And frankly, it doesn't matter what I do anyway. That has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

[Radhnoti]

FM - "As for marketing, do you think it is possible that your GM is using Shaolin for marketing? Kung fu became popular in the late 60's. I grew up seeing how cool Shaolin and kung fu looked. I feel your GM used Shaolin to get more students."

I think you're pushing the "kung-fu craze" date back a bit. Early 70's is the most common timeframe I see referenced for that particular phenomenon. Sin The' started teaching in the late 60's I believe (68?). Also, he was in Lexington, Kentucky and actually had to market his style as "karate" so people would know that he was teaching a fighting system.

Invincible Yang - "does anyoune know if Gm Sin plans on teaching all the forms of certain systems(White crane 18 forms, Ground monkey 18 forms, etc.) instead of just one form here and there?"

My understanding is that GM Sin tried to teach out all of one of the Praying Mantis systems, which started out great. But as he got further into the forms of the system fewer and fewer people showed up for the seminars. That's what I've heard as the reason for not teaching out entire systems...most SD people seem to want variety.

[Flying-Monkey]

The Xia posted video links (you tube) of other Martial Artist, not himself or someone from his school or system.

I understand what you mean. However, The Xia point is not that HE is that real deal 100% kung fu man. He is showing example of what is general know as real kung fu. I know behind closed doors some of these masters talk crap about each other, but in most cases they are talking crap about their level of training or lack of the poorly done forms (by them or by their student). Sometimes I heard real or not come up but not so often. My point with The Xia posts and some of the others is that what they are expressing in basically correct (in my eyes at least).

As for the national geographic, I saw the form and yes it does seem "REAL" ( I do not know all the forms in the universe). I think I saw a SD video of a form similar to this one. However, it did not seem correct. It seems like they do not fully understand what they are doing. KMA CMA JMA all have kicks and punches etc, but they are done differently.

It kind of reminds my of musical scales. I play the bass. A C major scale can be C D E F G A B C (one octive). This scale can be play many ways on the bass. The notes are like punches and kicks etc. This is in one postion. However, you can have C major scales in two postions, two octive, in 3ths, in 6ths or even jumping all around the neck. These different ways of playing the C major scale are like CMA JMA KMA BJJ etc. In my opinion, SD is not playing the correct type of scale.

[Flying-Monkey]

I have to go to work. I will post in a few hours.

[tattooedmonk]

Here is the thing. What about Shaolin Do makes you feel it's real Chinese martial arts?

To me, everything about it looks the opposite. The lineage not only goes against the history put forth by styles that are unquestionably Chinese, but in my opinion, it's a silly story as well. It claims to be authentic Southern Temple Kung Fu, then why is it that it has a hodgepodge of forms from various styles, including forms from non-Shaolin based styles like Tai Chi Chuan. Every expert on authentic Chinese styles I've heard, that has seen Shaolin Do in action, says that it isn't real kung fu. And as Flying Monkey said, many of these people said it looked like Kenpo. it comes from a chinese source......duh!!!the forms are obviously chinese you are just to ignorant to see it because of the outward appearence which is stupid!!!

kung fu is proficiancy acheived through hard work, time and effort ,or aquired skill.

Now if someone practices karate, judo, muay thai, etc and applys hardwork, time and effort, or aquired skill does this mean that they practice kung fu ??

yes it does.....

anyone that applys hardwork, time and effort or aquired skill to any task is said to have kung fu.... you can know kung fu of masonry , painting, racing cars, or drinking beer...... it does not matter...

the level of kung fu can only be measured by the amount of time and effort or hard work or aquired skill that is applied ..

but to say that SD is not kung fu based on the outward appearence, the lineage, or the japanese flavor is just stupid...it really shows the lack of understanding as to what true Shaolin is and lacks any intellectual depth into the real meaning behind the term kung fu...

for all you keyboard martial artist that have only experinced SD online checkout a class or two ,study with a blackbelt or 2 or master, get yourself man handled hard style and you tell me that they do not know Shaolin kung fu!!!

for all of you who do not get it......you never will ... for those who still are struggling with it ......let go of your resitence.....for all of you who have...... good job...and for those of you who already knew ...keep up the good work!!!

Shaolin is not a building, location, forms or anything else other than the philosophy... a way of life

it is through this philosophy that the collection of forms has been created and makes it Shaolin..

whether they have been addded to the system or were created and modified in the system does not matter...you think to much inside of the box...you need to get out more...

think about lau gar ..is it hung gar?? NO !!!...then how come it is listed in the sets of many authentic hungar schools...or fantzi absorbed into eagle claw..was it there originally ..what about tai hsing pekwar??? was axe fist and monkey originally together??/ but they are called kung fu and authentic styles...why??? because how they look on the outside?? that is just stupid...

if you were a christian and i handed you this rolled up wad of papers and told you it was a bible would you throw it away because of how it looked or would you use the knowledge within to become a better christian???

are you really this stupid???

[tattooedmonk]

First off, you don't know anything about me so who are you to say that person wasn't from my system, school, or whatever. I can say he is my sifu, I can say I do that style. I can name any Kung Fu style and say I do it or I can say I don't do any Kung Fu styles. I can say I did so and so style(s) in the past but this is what I'm doing now. I can say any number of these things without you knowing if it's true or false. This is the internet. And frankly, it doesn't matter what I do anyway. That has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.because without any experince or substantial backround in what you are trying to discuss you opinion amounts to just about SH*T!!!

[Yao Sing]

An appropriate question for this thread is one I've touched on in the past on the Mantis forum.

What exactly constitues a style? Is it the moves themselves or the way of execution? Or is it some combination of the two or something else entirely?

I study primarily Wah Lum Kung Fu but i also do some traditional Northern Mantis olus some Choy Lay Fut. I suspect no matter which one I do they all look like Wah Lum. I haven't gone deep enough into the other arts to capture the flavor and movement.

So, when I do a CLF set am I doing CLF or Wah Lum?

When I started in Wah Lum I had a background in Kenpo. The head instructor, Richard Allen, also had a Kenpo background. He would constantly tell me to stop doing Kenpo whenever I practiced Wah Lum. In his eyes I was still doing Kenpo even though the set was Wah Lum.

I bring this up because from what I've seen of SD the flavor more closely resembles Karate, not Kung Fu. So even if the sets themselves come from Kung Fu what is it?

Another related question - Does Kuntao refer to indigeneous Indonesian Arts or just the Chinese arts that migrated to Indonesia?

[The Xia]

because without any experince or substantial backround in what you are trying to discuss you opinion amounts to just about SH*T!!!
We are discussing if Shaolin Do is a Chinese martial art. My points are the same regardless of where they are coming from. And as I said, I can say anything about myself and you won't know if it's true or false. This is the nature of the internet. So what does it matter? Just look at the points. I can ask what lineages that are widely accepted as authentically Chinese did you study under and how proficient are you in these styles....Do you see me doing that? No, you can say anything so it doesn't matter. All that matters are the contents of the posts.

[The Xia]

Yeah, the term Kung Fu does mean "Time and Effort", but we are using it to refer to Chinese martial arts. Hell, I've heard people from China call Tae Kwan Do "Korean Kung Fu" and Karate "Japanese Kung Fu", but that usage is not the one we are working with here. For the purpose of this debate, Kung Fu is being used to mean Chinese martial arts.

[Yao Sing]

it comes from a chinese source......duh!!!the forms are obviously chinese

See my comments preceeding this post.

kung fu is proficiancy acheived through hard work, time and effort ,or aquired skill.

Obviously the word kung fu is not used in it's proper context in this country. The question, if you look back at the first post, is not whether SD is Kung Fu but if it's real Shaolin.

for all you keyboard martial artist that have only experinced SD online checkout a class or two ,study with a blackbelt or 2 or master, get yourself man handled hard style and you tell me that they do not know Shaolin kung fu!!!

A few pages back I asked if the seminars were open to outsiders and the answer was no. I knew that would be the answer but the point is there really isn't a reasonable way to experience SD first hand.

Nobody is going to go through the trouble of signing up for a class, paying the tuition, and spending how long in very basic classes before they get to material worthy of a fair evaluation.

Of course one SD'er claimed to learn enough in the first week to defeat multiple attackers so if true then a week would be a fair amount of time to make a judgement. You think?

Shaolin is not a building, location, forms or anything else other than the philosophy... a way of life

Sorry to nitpick but if it isn't forms then why does everyone keep offering them as proof of Shaolin legitimacy?

Sounds like you're saying you can't look at the forms to decide if it's Shaolin or not.

are you really this stupid???

Hey hey, not a fair question to ask a bunch of yoyo's that spend their spare time arguing over crap on an Internet forum. :p

[kungfujunky]

watch a black belt class.....wait for them to be doing a form in the park..happens at least once a month usually.

there are plenty of ways to see our material.

and what i said in my post was in relation to the short katas....yes i learned enough to adequately defend myself...which was my point. we teach self defense first and foremost. the more technical forms and skills come from years of training.

you want to see what we do watch a black belt class.

or join up for a month. you'll see enough people practicing to get a feel for it for sure...and youll probably get smacked around in sparring as well

:)

[Baqualin]

Flying-Monkey
As for the national geographic, I saw the form and yes it does seem "REAL" ( I do not know all the forms in the universe). I think I saw a SD video of a form similar to this one. However, it did not seem correct. It seems like they do not fully understand what they are doing. KMA CMA JMA all have kicks and punches etc, but they are done differently.

It kind of reminds my of musical scales. I play the bass. A C major scale can be C D E F G A B C (one octive). This scale can be play many ways on the bass. The notes are like punches and kicks etc. This is in one postion. However, you can have C major scales in two postions, two octive, in 3ths, in 6ths or even jumping all around the neck. These different ways of playing the C major scale are like CMA JMA KMA BJJ etc. In my opinion, SD is not playing the correct type of scale.[/QUOTE]

I couldn't agree with you more....I play guitar and understand scales very well.
Each musican also has his own flavor or tone that comes from his fingers or vocal chords. Forms are just like notes in music no one can play or sing a song the same way as the original musican....close sometimes, but not the same. The notes can be passed on, but how there played thats a different story. The problem is the further it gets away from the original musican the sound changes ( sometimes better)....but it's still the same notes (forms). I have to go too....off work...time to work out. Would love to discuss this more:)

[tattooedmonk]

Yeah, the term Kung Fu does mean "Time and Effort", but we are using it to refer to Chinese martial arts. Hell, I've heard people from China call Tae Kwan Do "Korean Kung Fu" and Karate "Japanese Kung Fu", but that usage is not the one we are working with here. For the purpose of this debate, Kung Fu is being used to mean Chinese martial arts.I already told you that it is american shaolin kungfu...you really are this stupid...

[tattooedmonk]

We are discussing if Shaolin Do is a Chinese martial art. My points are the same regardless of where they are coming from. And as I said, I can say anything about myself and you won't know if it's true or false. This is the nature of the internet. So what does it matter? Just look at the points. I can ask what lineages that are widely accepted as authentically Chinese did you study under and how proficient are you in these styles....Do you see me doing that? No, you can say anything so it doesn't matter. All that matters are the contents of the posts.shaolindo comes from many sources.... but it 's roots are in china and it fruits are here in america...

[tattooedmonk]

See my comments preceeding this post.



Obviously the word kung fu is not used in it's proper context in this country. The question, if you look back at the first post, is not whether SD is Kung Fu but if it's real Shaolin.



A few pages back I asked if the seminars were open to outsiders and the answer was no. I knew that would be the answer but the point is there really isn't a reasonable way to experience SD first hand.

Nobody is going to go through the trouble of signing up for a class, paying the tuition, and spending how long in very basic classes before they get to material worthy of a fair evaluation.

Of course one SD'er claimed to learn enough in the first week to defeat multiple attackers so if true then a week would be a fair amount of time to make a judgement. You think?



Sorry to nitpick but if it isn't forms then why does everyone keep offering them as proof of Shaolin legitimacy?

Sounds like you're saying you can't look at the forms to decide if it's Shaolin or not.



Hey hey, not a fair question to ask a bunch of yoyo's that spend their spare time arguing over crap on an Internet forum. :p

I have said this over and over again..... shaolin is not defined by the forms, the culture, or a set of buildings...it is the philosophy..... a way of life......the philosophy of shaolin is inherent in Shaolin Do .....The Way of Shaolin?!?!

If this is not what Shaolin is then what is it???

people keep offering up forms because that is all people see shaolin as...they are missing the true understandings of what Shaolin is.....

if no one is going to go through the "trouble" of signing up and all that..... then they do not truely want to know whether SD is real Shaolin or not....

and as for the guy that stated that in one class he felt he could whip three people...what do you expect from a new bee???

[kungfujunky]

no i stated that after a week of training , meaning 4 classes plus practice hours, i was able and confident enough to beat 3 guys who attacked me.

[The Xia]

I already told you that it is american shaolin kungfu...you really are this stupid...
You bring my intelligence into question because you don't like what I have to say. The fact that you need to use personal attacks in this debate speaks volumes about you.

We are using the term "Kung Fu" to mean Chinese martial arts. According to this definition, there is no such thing as "American Kung Fu", let alone "American Shaolin Kung Fu". As for the term Shaolin, I'm using it in the sense of a style being directly from, or having roots in, Shaolin martial arts. I'm not using it in the sense of "Shaolin Spirit", whatever the hell that is.

[The Xia]

shaolindo comes from many sources.... but it 's roots are in china
Where is your evidence that its roots are in China? I've looked at plenty of evidence that supports just the opposite.

[tattooedmonk]

You bring my intelligence into question because you don't like what I have to say. The fact that you need to use personal attacks in this debate speaks volumes about you.

We are using the term "Kung Fu" to mean Chinese martial arts. According to this definition, there is no such thing as "American Kung Fu", let alone "American Shaolin Kung Fu". As for the term Shaolin, I'm using it in the sense of a style being directly from, or having roots in, Shaolin martial arts. I'm not using it in the sense of "Shaolin Spirit", whatever the hell that is.no I bring your intelligence into question because you have yet to prove that you know anything about shaolin other than what you have read and believe to be shaolin... plus you just keep posting the same sh*t over and over and over again ..

I was wrong you are not stupid you are insane!!!....

.....it is not chinese martial arts...how many time do we have to tell you this ?? it is here in america that is what makes it american shaolin.....

kungfu is a misnomenor...do you not get that??

if this is your definition then it surely does have roots in shaolin and is ' kung fu".

style is the way in which someone expresses themselves

if you do not know what "shaolin spirit" is then......... I recorrect myself .....you are not only insane but stupid too!!!

you do not know what shaolin is ...so just STFU!!!

[tattooedmonk]

Where is your evidence that its roots are in China? I've looked at plenty of evidence that supports just the opposite.The philospophy!!!.... and seeing as the forms are all that matter to you ...those too!!! you sir are an idiot!!!

[tattooedmonk]

no i stated that after a week of training , meaning 4 classes plus practice hours, i was able and confident enough to beat 3 guys who attacked me.my mistake.......

[The Xia]

no I bring your intelligence into question because you have yet to prove that you know anything about shaolin other than what you have read and believe to be shaolin... plus you just keep posting the same sh*t over and over and over again ..

I was wrong you are not stupid you are insane!!!....

.....it is not chinese martial arts...how many time do we have to tell you this ?? it is here in america that is what makes it american shaolin.....

kungfu is a misnomenor...do you not get that??

if this is your definition then it surely does have roots in shaolin and is ' kung fu".

style is the way in which someone expresses themselves

if you do not know what "shaolin spirit" is then......... I recorrect myself .....you are not only insane but stupid too!!!

you do not know what shaolin is ...so just STFU!!!
The philospophy!!!.... and seeing as the forms are all that matter to you ...those too!!! you sir are an idiot!!!
Again with the personal attacks. :rolleyes:
You attack the messenger because you do not like the message. I didn’t engage in any name-calling, that’s all you. It says something about your character as well, and it isn’t positive.
In this discussion, we are using the term "Kung Fu" to mean Chinese martial arts. It is as simple as that. Where are these alleged Chinese, let alone Shaolin, roots? You can have all the Chinese forms in the world but that doesn’t mean they are being done right. Every expert on styles that are widely accepted as Chinese, that I've heard, says that Shaolin Do isn't Chinese martial arts. As for "Shaolin spirit", the history is long and individuals vary. Many monks were actually killers who then joined temples, and they brought their martial arts to these temples. So is "Shaolin spirit" murder and then using the cloth for cover? Or is "Shaolin Spirit" the religious outlook of the Shaolin Temple? The Shaolin religious outlook is Chan Buddhist, which would disqualify Shaolin Do being that they aren't a Chan Buddhist Organization. It's not simple like you are making it out to be.

[Royal Dragon]

I think in this context, "Shaolin Spirt" Means they are pretending to be Shaolin, and fantasize about ancient temples, and that they have some sort of spiritual connection to the Monks of old, because they do some sort of Japanified & katraeafied patterns that they "Think" are "Chinese cool", and they are really good at playing out thier delusions in some sort of romantic manor....this = Shaolin spirit.

The rest of us see this, and just shake our heads sadly...

[Citong Shifu]

Hey CS, I'm in, I was already planning to meet you someday, since your from my neck of the woods. Will there be an internal division...that's all I do now.

Maybe JP, Kwaichang, Bent Monk & I can car pool....GT can sneak in the back door and make sure we have proper form;)


Hey Baqualin! Yes, we will most definitely have internal empty hand / weapon dividsions; taiji, bagua, hsing yi, etc.... There will be pretty much everything. We are also going to do padded staff and sword sparring :D .

I will make sure that I IM you guys when more exact details and dates are set... We will also have masters performing seminars the weekend of tournament...

It will really be a great time....

Sifu Ron...

[tattooedmonk]

Again with the personal attacks. :rolleyes:
You attack the messenger because you do not like the message. I didn’t engage in any name-calling, that’s all you. It says something about your character as well, and it isn’t positive.
In this discussion, we are using the term "Kung Fu" to mean Chinese martial arts. It is as simple as that. Where are these alleged Chinese, let alone Shaolin, roots? You can have all the Chinese forms in the world but that doesn’t mean they are being done right. Every expert on styles that are widely accepted as Chinese, that I've heard, says that Shaolin Do isn't Chinese martial arts. As for "Shaolin spirit", the history is long and individuals vary. Many monks were actually killers using the cloth as shelter, and they brought their martial arts to temples. So is "Shaolin spirit" murder and using the cloth for cover? Or is "Shaolin Spirit" the religious outlook of the Shaolin Temple? The Shaolin religious outlook is Chan Buddhist, which would disqualify Shaolin Do being that they aren't a Chan Buddhist Organization. It's not simple like you are making it out to be.iam not attacking you ...i call it like i see it!!!

idiot and stupid are based on facts not just my opinion ....

you said that shaolin is based on the forms...there are chinese shaolin forms in our art...you are basing you opinion from the outside and not the inside

...the cover not the book????

the way that they are used.....for it's intended purpose.... to avoid ,hurt, maim, or kill...no matter how pretty it looks does not mean that it will work in a fight...this is what is important not whether they look hard and rigid or soft and fluid..or the lineage or history or whatever


I already told you it is not kung fu it is not chinese it is shaolin do......

what is chan buddhism based on?? a philosophy and ideaology ...a way of life...

you do not have to have religion to be spiritual

dude you need to really get a clue...you spew out all this **** that is written all over the web by all these sources and none of it can be proven within a shaodow of a doubt...

the fact that SD has 135 schools/ programs nation wide and has well over 10000 practitioners shows it's authenticity as to what we already know SD is real that **** you spew mostly all bull**** you have no idea.

the buddha said do not believe something because it is tradition , or because everyone says it ,or believes it or because it is written in a book ..but only after you have found it to be useful and true!!

you obviously have not or you would not keep posting the same **** over and over and oer again after you questions have been ansewered for the 1000 time...

[tattooedmonk]

I think in this context, "Shaolin Spirt" Means they are pretending to be Shaolin, and fantasize about ancient temples, and that they have some sort of spiritual connection to the Monks of old, because they do some sort of Japanified & katraeafied patterns that they "Think" are "Chinese cool", and they are really good at playing out thier delusions in some sort of romantic manor....this = Shaolin spirit.

The rest of us see this, and just shake our heads sadly...well if this was the case then we would dress like monks and do our best to imitate the so called real practitoners of kung fu and would not have all the japanese trappings that we do...now would we??

by the way ....nice stance ..if that is what traditional kungfu teaches I would rather not do it because sh*t like that gets you hurt...do you know anything about physiology or body mechanics??

it is funny that all the people that trash talk SD have probably less than a bachalors degree in anything and yet all the major players have a masters degree or better in something...do you think that anyone who has a higher level of education is just going to go by ...my master said it so it must be true???

give us all a break

[Royal Dragon]

the fact that SD has 135 schools/ programs nation wide and has well over 10000 practitioners shows it's authenticity as to what we already know SD is real that **** you spew mostly all bull**** you have no idea.

Reply]
No, it means SD has a good marketing plan.....

it is funny that all the people that trash talk SD have probably less than a bachalors degree in anything and yet all the major players have a masters degree or better in something...do you think that anyone who has a higher level of education is just going to go by ...my master said it so it must be true???

Reply]
Well, considering the source here, that is exactly what happened in SD.....

[The Xia]

You insult people who say things you don't like. Yeah, that's really mature. :rolleyes:

You say it is a fact that I am an idiot and stupid. You don't even know me to make that judgement. It isn't a fact. Actually, I am far from stupid. You are the one defending the claims that there is a lineage of kung fu that traces back to the Fukien Shaolin temple's "first grandmaster", who happens to have a disease that makes him hairy all over. This story contradicts Chinese martial arts history. In my opinion, it is also silly and not a good story. There is so much I can say.

You don't believe me? Try going to an old school Choy Lay Fut or Bak Mei Sifu and tell him the Su Kong story. Then show him your forms. See how he reacts.

[Learn]

Let me give a bow of respect to a post by Judge Pen. I paraphrase, and correct me if I am wrong but I think he said, it is what it is, I get alot out of it, and I'm not so worried about marketing. I would agree that SD offers its practioners alot of benefits. It did me. I would differ from Dapper Dan (great movie by the way), the marketing is a bit important to me. You just cannot expect to be able to use all of these multitudes of styles with effectiveness with one lifetime of learning. If SD purported to teach elements of many styles, that would be one thing, and quite fine, but to suggest it will teach you these myriad of styles, is disingenuous. Perhaps this is a fine point, but one I think is important. A thing that concerns me is that the styles being taught are not what one would learn in studying the sole dedicated style. That was my experience. To suggest that Sin The was the heir of all shaolin styles seems to me a marketing tool, and one disposed of quite quickly if you train with someone who is a learned teacher in one of those particular styles. Sin The has alot to offer, I doubt all the controversy would have erupted if he had not claimed ownership to all that is all Shaolin.

[The Xia]

I did he liked them and thought they were the real deal. KC
You expect us to believe that you told a traditional sifu the Su Kong story, showed him some Shaolin Do forms, and he, in all seriousness, said it was the "real deal"?

[sunfist]

We have 3 or 4 posters on here saying SD is not real. there are 7-8000 who say it is real. Most who say it isnt real have only seen clips or demo tapes and not the real thing.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43265

I am genuinely curious with regards to numbers, it will be interesting to see.

Also, note that while some, nay many, may be judging SD based upon evidence other than first hand experience, have the majority of SDers gone out and studied each of the arts which it claims to incorporate in dedicated schools? If not, how does that leave them in any better position to judge which is 'right'.

[Flying-Monkey]

I did he liked them and thought they were the real deal. KC

What was this teacher's name and what style?

Next time, don't say you are SD. Show them a video. Back in the day, I was giulty of the same thing. Someone shows me a form, and i say it was good or it was real.

[Flying-Monkey]

I am not going to argue about where, how or from whom GM The learned his stuff. This is mainly because we can never know (not even his top students). Only His brother and he know the truth. It could have been from teachers, books or reels.

I am concerned with the way the forms are done. Please post some examples of good SD forms.

[Judge Pen]

Let me give a bow of respect to a post by Judge Pen. I paraphrase, and correct me if I am wrong but I think he said, it is what it is, I get alot out of it, and I'm not so worried about marketing. I would agree that SD offers its practioners alot of benefits. It did me. I would differ from Dapper Dan (great movie by the way), the marketing is a bit important to me. You just cannot expect to be able to use all of these multitudes of styles with effectiveness with one lifetime of learning. If SD purported to teach elements of many styles, that would be one thing, and quite fine, but to suggest it will teach you these myriad of styles, is disingenuous. Perhaps this is a fine point, but one I think is important. A thing that concerns me is that the styles being taught are not what one would learn in studying the sole dedicated style. That was my experience. To suggest that Sin The was the heir of all shaolin styles seems to me a marketing tool, and one disposed of quite quickly if you train with someone who is a learned teacher in one of those particular styles. Sin The has alot to offer, I doubt all the controversy would have erupted if he had not claimed ownership to all that is all Shaolin.

You paraphrased well. And most of the individuals that study SD for a while will admit (some freely and some begrudgingly) that their understanding of Pa Kua or [insert system here] is not at the depth that it would be if they had studied that system exclusively (from a teacher that taught that system exclusively). The end result of SD, because of the way it is taught, is that each individual learns the pieces of a system that works for them and that amalgamation is what SD is to them. What Sin The is a Master in, according to his certificate is Golden Snake. As far as I know, he hasn't publically taught or demonstrated his master style.

And Xia, get off the lineage. I don't have to believe the story to believe that the forms we have are of Chinese origin albeit performed with our own flavor. I believe that flying monkey will agree that most CMA styles taught today have bogus or made up lineages lurking in their past.

And Flying Moneky if you didn't think that Master Mullins' forms were good, then we probably can't show you something that would be better--only maybe a better choice of forms. I remember those vids you are speaking of. They weren't full speed, but Master Garry is one of the better forms people in our style. If that's not good enough, then just accept us saying that our stuff is done with its own flavor which makes it different from most other places claiming to do the same styles.

P.S. forgive the typos and spelling. I'm on my first cup of coffee.

[Judge Pen]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43265

I am genuinely curious with regards to numbers, it will be interesting to see.

Also, note that while some, nay many, may be judging SD based upon evidence other than first hand experience, have the majority of SDers gone out and studied each of the arts which it claims to incorporate in dedicated schools? If not, how does that leave them in any better position to judge which is 'right'.

I'm working on learning and comparing much of my stuff, but options are limited. A few foirms from a few sytems have been compared and they are, in my opinon, more similar than most people here would believe; however, the way they are played (even with the same principles in place) make it different. Example: our tai chi is generally performed much slower than others. 24 posture takes 12 minutes if performed at the speed we are taught. There are reasons for this, but that certainly makes the flow of the form different than most.

[Golden Tiger]

have the majority of SDers gone out and studied each of the arts which it claims to incorporate in dedicated schools?

I can only speak for myself and the answer to the first part is no, I have only "studied" SD. I have though, through out the many years, trained with, fought with and talked to people from many many styles. And it might seem strange to some of the people here but if it was "right" or not never really came up. We worked out, traded punches, shared some of the techniques we knew and went on about our business. And during this time, I learned a lot from others but also, I got quite a few "wow, I never really saw that move that way".

If not, how does that leave them in any better position to judge which is 'right'.

While I am sure it has happened from time to time, most of the SD students don't judge other arts on if they are 'right' or not. Personally, if I see some different way that say Hsing Ie is done and I think it will help me, then it is 'right'. If I don't see any merit in it, its no less 'wrong', its just the way it is.

Not that anyone will listen, but I would like to touch on this supreme marketing campaign that SD has according to some here. To put it bluntly, there is none. (speaking only of the areas I know) Last time I checked, there was about 100 or so students at the Lex. gym. Aside from a small ad in the yellow pages, all new classes are advertised by word of mouth. No flyers,no demos, no newspaper ads, no nothing. There may be a mention of it on the web these days but even that is minor. The school is called "Sin The' Karate Club" and they teach the art of Shaolin-Do. I would say that 90% of the people have never heard of shaolin other than it is a temple or something in China. So all this BS about using the mighty legend of Shaolin in order to get students is kind of silly. Students that like it tell their friends and get them to join. That is our super secret, marketing plan developed by a team of MBA's that we borrowed from all the major companies in the Fortune 100. :rolleyes:

So, I am feeling the effect of my morning tea, what else do you want to talk about?:D

[sunfist]

Creation versus evolution should do the trick, care to toss a coin for who gets creation?

[MasterKiller]

So all this BS about using the mighty legend of Shaolin in order to get students is kind of silly

http://www.shaolinlegends.com/v_legends_v3.html ;)

[Baqualin]

I can only speak for myself and the answer to the first part is no, I have only "studied" SD. I have though, through out the many years, trained with, fought with and talked to people from many many styles. And it might seem strange to some of the people here but if it was "right" or not never really came up. We worked out, traded punches, shared some of the techniques we knew and went on about our business. And during this time, I learned a lot from others but also, I got quite a few "wow, I never really saw that move that way".



While I am sure it has happened from time to time, most of the SD students don't judge other arts on if they are 'right' or not. Personally, if I see some different way that say Hsing Ie is done and I think it will help me, then it is 'right'. If I don't see any merit in it, its no less 'wrong', its just the way it is.

Not that anyone will listen, but I would like to touch on this supreme marketing campaign that SD has according to some here. To put it bluntly, there is none. (speaking only of the areas I know) Last time I checked, there was about 100 or so students at the Lex. gym. Aside from a small ad in the yellow pages, all new classes are advertised by word of mouth. No flyers,no demos, no newspaper ads, no nothing. There may be a mention of it on the web these days but even that is minor. The school is called "Sin The' Karate Club" and they teach the art of Shaolin-Do. I would say that 90% of the people have never heard of shaolin other than it is a temple or something in China. So all this BS about using the mighty legend of Shaolin in order to get students is kind of silly. Students that like it tell their friends and get them to join. That is our super secret, marketing plan developed by a team of MBA's that we borrowed from all the major companies in the Fortune 100. :rolleyes:

So, I am feeling the effect of my morning tea, what else do you want to talk about?:D

I will back GT up on the Lexington school....EML runs this school and would teach for free if he could afford to.....he could care less about marketing.....his only concern is to pass on the art......our fees are the lowest of any school in the area and as long as he can pay the bills to keep the doors open and take care of his wife he's happy. Also he could care less about what you all think:D

I also have played with and will continue to play with other MA's of all styles and know one has question what I do....only showed respect.

[Baqualin]

You expect us to believe that you told a traditional sifu the Su Kong story, showed him some Shaolin Do forms, and he, in all seriousness, said it was the "real deal"?

Hey Xia, did you ever figure out what reverse breathing is?:rolleyes:

[Golden Tiger]

http://www.shaolinlegends.com/v_legends_v3.html ;)


Wonder how many people, aside from current students or those on this forum have a copy of that or even know of the site? And to be candid, thats a Atl. creation and to the best of my knowledge, there are no copies at the Lex gym. (which is where I was refering to if you read my opening statment.;)

By the way, welcome back MK. I almost thought that you left us.

[Judge Pen]

I pay $45 a month for my instruction so I think its a good price. Most SD teachers don't teach full time.

[Flying-Monkey]

Hey Xia, did you ever figure out what reverse breathing is?:rolleyes:

Why don't you just answer his question?

[MasterKiller]

By the way, welcome back MK. I almost thought that you left us.

MK is the Alpha and Omega. The Beginning and the End. The First and the Last.

[Judge Pen]

MK is the Alpha and Omega. The Beginning and the End. The First and the Last.

Not only that, but he has a high opinion of himself too. :p

[Flaca]

I did he liked them and thought they were the real deal. KC

You expect us to believe that you told a traditional sifu the Su Kong story, showed him some Shaolin Do forms, and he, in all seriousness, said it was the "real deal"?

Hey Xia, did you ever figure out what reverse breathing is?:rolleyes:

Actually Xia, KC is showing previously unseen humility. His SD is spectacular, much like EMMullins; low stances, good power and form, flexibility & speed. If KC (or EMMullins) showed a form, it would look better than any of the videos I've personally seen. The same is true for a lot of SD'ers. ;)

[The Xia]

Hey Xia, did you ever figure out what reverse breathing is?:rolleyes:
Again with that. I will give you the same response. If you think you know the answer, post it! And post it on the southern forum. ;)

[Baqualin]

Again with that. I will give you the same response. If you think you know the answer, post it! And post it on the southern forum. ;)

If you're so knowledgeable about CMA, you should know the answer....It's part of our SD training....give me a reason to respect you as a martial artist & I'll answer any question you ask. I was only trying to make a point...if your going to slam us know what your slamming...visit a school and watch our classes...work out with us...it's free to see......we're friendly & open people always willing to learn & share......come to Lexington and I'll put you up in my house and feed you...we can watch SD videos till your eyes are red.....go to the gym and work out...spar...do forms...push hands, meet some of the highest ranking masters in the SD system and judge for youself.:)

Also it's a free country....please don't tell me where to post...thats my choice:D

[ricardocameron]

You are the one defending the claims that there is a lineage of kung fu that traces back to the Fukien Shaolin temple's "first grandmaster", who happens to have a disease that makes him hairy all over. This story contradicts Chinese martial arts history. In my opinion, it is also silly and not a good story.




Who's version of CMA history?

They didn't write $hit down!! Just ask the Hung Gar crowd about History and Lineage... and stand back, quickly.. :D

[kungfujunky]

If you're so knowledgeable about CMA, you should know the answer....It's part of our SD training....give me a reason to respect you as a martial artist & I'll answer any question you ask. I was only trying to make a point...if your going to slam us know what your slamming...visit a school and watch our classes...work out with us...it's free to see......we're friendly & open people always willing to learn & share......come to Lexington and I'll put you up in my house and feed you...we can watch SD videos till your eyes are red.....go to the gym and work out...spar...do forms...push hands, meet some of the highest ranking masters in the SD system and judge for youself.:)

Also it's a free country....please don't tell me where to post...thats my choice:D

can i come hang out with you?

lol

that would rock!

[Judge Pen]

Who's version of CMA history?

They didn't write $hit down!! Just ask the Hung Gar crowd about History and Lineage... and stand back, quickly.. :D

or wing chun.....

or CLF.....

or any esoteric southern style.....

I admit, there are things not right about our story of history. There are also things not right with others. If you need a verifiable history and lineage for you to believe that a chinese martial art has any value to it, then you wouldn't be doing kung fu.

[ricardocameron]

or wing chun.....

or CLF.....

or any esoteric southern style.....

I admit, there are things not right about our story of history. There are also things not right with others. If you need a verifiable history and lineage for you to believe that a chinese martial art has any value to it, then you wouldn't be doing kung fu.

Or Ed Parker's Kenpo...it too came from CMA. Kenpo is the japanese version of chinese Chuan Fa.. "Fist Way" And It would seem Jeff Speakman knows a few things, maybe. ;)

So Kenpo(Kempo) is Kung Fu too, right? ;)

[Baqualin]

can i come hang out with you?

lol

that would rock!

Didn't I already give you an invite?:D

[kungfujunky]

Didn't I already give you an invite?:D


lol to true

[Flying-Monkey]

If you're so knowledgeable about CMA, you should know the answer....It's part of our SD training....give me a reason to respect you as a martial artist & I'll answer any question you ask. I was only trying to make a point...if your going to slam us know what your slamming...visit a school and watch our classes...work out with us...it's free to see......we're friendly & open people always willing to learn & share......come to Lexington and I'll put you up in my house and feed you...we can watch SD videos till your eyes are red.....go to the gym and work out...spar...do forms...push hands, meet some of the highest ranking masters in the SD system and judge for youself.:)

Also it's a free country....please don't tell me where to post...thats my choice:D

I would like to know what reverse breathing is. Maybe I know it by a different name.

And

What about The Xia question:

You expect us to believe that you told a traditional sifu the Su Kong story, showed him some Shaolin Do forms, and he, in all seriousness, said it was the "real deal"?

Please answer.

And

please post some videos of what you feel are good examples of SD forms.

[The Xia]

I would like to know what reverse breathing is. Maybe I know it by a different name.

And

What about The Xia question:

You expect us to believe that you told a traditional sifu the Su Kong story, showed him some Shaolin Do forms, and he, in all seriousness, said it was the "real deal"?

Please answer.

And

please post some videos of what you feel are good examples of SD forms.
I couldn't have put that better myself.

[Judge Pen]

I would like to know what reverse breathing is. Maybe I know it by a different name.

If you know it by a differnt name it would be Taoist breath or maybe even the "pre-birth" breath. It is taught in certain internal aspects of SD

And

What about The Xia question:

You expect us to believe that you told a traditional sifu the Su Kong story, showed him some Shaolin Do forms, and he, in all seriousness, said it was the "real deal"?

Please answer.

They wouldn't if you told the Su Kong story. If you didn't talk history, weren't wearing a gi and going barefoot, and were a pretty good forms person then they wouldn't be offended by the forms. They would notice differences, but not gross differences.

And

please post some videos of what you feel are good examples of SD forms.

I've already told you. If you didn't like Master Mullins' forms, then I won't be able to provide you a better example.

[Flaca]

I couldn't have put that better myself.

I would like to know what reverse breathing is. Maybe I know it by a different name.
.
I believe we use reverse breathing during eagle claw training.


And

What about The Xia question:

You expect us to believe that you told a traditional sifu the Su Kong story, showed him some Shaolin Do forms, and he, in all seriousness, said it was the "real deal"?

Please answer.

And

please post some videos of what you feel are good examples of SD forms.
Can't post any videos. I've heard the stories (of well received demos of SD forms at a shaolin temple), but don't know any traditional sifus outside SD to ask. Lots of traditional sifus inside SD, won't name them here. :)

[Baqualin]

Flying- Monkey...I highly respect you as a CMA and your general attitude....so JP is correct in calling it taoist breathing...buddist breathing is the most common...when inhaling the lower abdomen is expanded..on the exhale it is contracted. In Reverse, negative, or Taoist the lower abdomen is contracted on the inhale and expanded on the exhale. This is the simple explanation of course with out getting into the chi movement.


What about The Xia question:

You expect us to believe that you told a traditional sifu the Su Kong story, showed him some Shaolin Do forms, and he, in all seriousness, said it was the "real deal"?

This question was directed toward Kwaichang not me:)


Also I responded to any earlier post of yours related to musical scales...I'm a guitar player...messed with bass a little and really enjoyed it....I liked your analogy:D

[tattooedmonk]

I showed the forms to a sifu of another style, I never said I went into the lineage or Soo Kong story I had on a tee shirt and karate pants and w/o shoes. So as not to Bias the teacher. He said they were the real deal but a little different.
Also I have a friend in the Wah Lum style who iI have spoken with as well and W/o with in the past. Still no adverse reactions. KCbecause anyone that is really doing the arts does not care about the outward appearences or the lineage ...all that matters is whether it works or not!!!ShaolinDo works and this is what makes it real!!!!

[Flying-Monkey]

Also I responded to any earlier post of yours related to musical scales...I'm a guitar player...messed with bass a little and really enjoyed it....I liked your analogy:D

I feel this strongly. The more your practice and keep your chops up, the better you play. It is also easy to learn new stuff. it is the same with martial arts.

I respect the passion SD men have for protecting their art and their love for MA.

[Flying-Monkey]

because anyone that is really doing the arts does not care about the outward appearences or the lineage ...all that matters is whether it works or not!!!ShaolinDo works and this is what makes it real!!!!

Monk,

"Real what?" is my question. Before you answer, I don't want to get into a cyclic debate about the bearded monk who mastered all of the techniques and styles. Because I cannot prove to you it is false and you cannot prove to me it is true. I have never been to the temple. I cannot read Chinese to the point to read the old scrolls. The internet is filled with good info and bad info.

Even the strongest debater against SD will not and cannot argue its ability in the ring. However, is SD shaolin in the sense that most (credible) people think shaolin is?

[Flying-Monkey]

I showed the forms to a sifu of another style, I never said I went into the lineage or Soo Kong story I had on a tee shirt and karate pants and w/o shoes. So as not to Bias the teacher. He said they were the real deal but a little different.
Also I have a friend in the Wah Lum style who iI have spoken with as well and W/o with in the past. Still no adverse reactions. KC

I don't mean to seem nit-picky, but he is your friend. why would he tell his friend who worked hard and learned how to fight that what he does is not real?

[Flying-Monkey]

What does this breathing do for the MAist?

[Flying-Monkey]

I have heard of him. Unfortunately, I feel that he was just a legend. There really isn't any proof he was real. It is not only this bearded monk, but other heros in Chinese history. I think that most of them were real people, but they were hyped up.

[kungfujunky]

the breathing is a way of channeling the chi...without going to in depth.

there is a lot more to the whole set of postures and breathing techniques than that simple answer but that is it in a nut shell...gt or bq could probably explain it better

there have been a number of people who say they have heard of su kong outside of sd talks. does that not lead some credibility to at least the fact that he was a real person?

i do know that gmt has some documents that would settle this debate but sadly he doesnt feel the need to worry about people who arent his students.

i often wonder if he would grant an extensive interview to answer a lot of these questions....

[The Xia]

Try asking yourself some questions.

If Su Kong were real, why is it that he is only in the Shaolin Do lineage chart and not a major figure in Chinese folklore? Why is it that the Five Elders story, which is present in many lineages that are widely accepted as legit, is huge in Chinese folklore?

[Flying-Monkey]

I heard of a kind of breathing like that, but it is not shaolin (like someone mentioned before). I heard it was more for longevity than for fighting.

I heard of a very hairy monk who was very skilled, but I may be confusing it with the journey to the West. It was a long time ago.

Su Kong was a kung fu genius (according to SD lore). He did the impossible, so why isn't he more famous like Wong fei Hung, and the others.

Jesus is very famous. However, the only proof of him is in the bible. A book that I feel cannot be relied upon. Go to Google video and do search on Penn and Teller's Bullsh!t show. They did a show about the bible. Yes, I know you can't rely on two magical comedians, but they make a lot of good points.

[Golden Tiger]

If Su Kong were real, why is it that he is only in the Shaolin Do lineage chart and not a major figure in Chinese folklore?


This photo was debated a few thousand posts ago it seems, but from what i remember, it is in a building off to the side of the main temple. It is part of a famous photo essay done circa 1928. Does it look like anyone we know?

[kungfujunky]

cool link gt thanks...i hadnt seen that one

the xia....since su kong had to abruptly leave the temple due to fire and persecution isnt it also possible there was no that wanted to talk about the now outlawed shaolin martial artists?

the other legend you continue to speak of is so widely used because so many use it. can these other schools prove their lineage beyond a reasonable doubt? and we also have the five elders in our history...but thats not exactly where our teachings came from.

i ask again...who here can claim to know real cma when there is no video referance of actual shaolin performing it from 200 years ago? cma..specifically shaolin is an oral tradition.

there is no way any lineage, any school, any sifu can claim to do real cma when all the martial arts we have today are passed down from master to master....each master adds their own flavor. so isnt it possible then that our real cma looks different than yours? isnt it possible that gm ie and gm t have added their own flavors to sd to preserve and protect it during turbulent times?

to be so hard lined about something as flimsy as "real cma" is really close minded in my opinion.

since not one of us can claim to know what "real cma" looks like. all we can know is what our teachers have shown us. and their style could be tremendously different from what "real cma" is supposed to be.

and again i think the greatest aid to sd is that clip from the fight science show. a celebrated wu shu champion and real cma shaolin kung fu practicioner does our material. not just a punch or kick either. he does nearly half of a form. a form that no one claims is real kung fu. yet there it is! on tv! performed by a champion no less.

[Flying-Monkey]

This photo was debated a few thousand posts ago it seems, but from what i remember, it is in a building off to the side of the main temple. It is part of a famous photo essay done circa 1928. Does it look like anyone we know?

Is it Sun Wu kung?

[Judge Pen]

I heard of a kind of breathing like that, but it is not shaolin (like someone mentioned before). I heard it was more for longevity than for fighting.

It is also used to provide a boost of energy, but I'm not the most knowledgable person in all things chi. It is interesting to notice the effects of practicing this type of breath. It is introduced during the bird training on Hua tuo's five animal frolics--a very old style of chi gong that developed outside of the temple. SD teaches and practices this style of Chi gong and it is taught at the same time that we are taught SD's Hsing-Ie.

I heard of a very hairy monk who was very skilled, but I may be confusing it with the journey to the West. It was a long time ago.

Su Kong was a kung fu genius (according to SD lore). He did the impossible, so why isn't he more famous like Wong fei Hung, and the others.

Jesus is very famous. However, the only proof of him is in the bible. A book that I feel cannot be relied upon. Go to Google video and do search on Penn and Teller's Bullsh!t show. They did a show about the bible. Yes, I know you can't rely on two magical comedians, but they make a lot of good points.


As far as the story anaolgies, you know that I agree with you--I think he was a fable first told in Indonesia. Certain branches of CLF have an individual in thier lineage known as the "green grass monk" that isn't found in other lineages of martial arts, but it doesn't dilute the origins of their forms as being Chinese.

[BentMonk]

This might look familiar to my SD buds as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGIHXVeL24o&NR

[Flying-Monkey]

As far as the story anaolgies, you know that I agree with you--I think he was a fable first told in Indonesia. Certain branches of CLF have an individual in thier lineage known as the "green grass monk" that isn't found in other lineages of martial arts, but it doesn't dilute the origins of their forms as being Chinese.

The validity of a person or character is not the focus of my question. I was side tracked a bit. Plus, the branch of CLF's forms and history are not in question.

[Baqualin]

The validity of a person or character is not the focus of my question. I was side tracked a bit. Plus, the branch of CLF's forms and history are not in question.

That happens alot on here.....please restate your main question.....I would like to respond.:)

[The Willow Sword]

THAT PHOTO posted by GT was already answered by Gene ching. and i believe he said that was a buddhist Deityas it is very common for buddhist temples and taoist temples to carve images of the celestial deities and gods. its NOT Li Baoshu or as you guys call him (su kong). i thought you guys had better sense than that.


you know with this past tourney that you guys went to and such i wonder why none of you have ever asked Sin The' about all this. i seem to remember at somepoint that a few of you were going to? Did you get cold feet or something? Did you forget? i hardly think so since those of you who post here on a regular basis and who go to these seminars and tourneys. you know what i think, i think you guys are AFRAID to ask these questions for FEAR of some reprisal or bill leonard getting up in your face or any of the other seniors there.

If i could ask Sin The about it i would, but i understand the fear that you guys have by not bringing it up.

TWS

[Flaca]

you know with this past tourney that you guys went to and such i wonder why none of you have ever asked Sin The' about all this. i seem to remember at somepoint that a few of you were going to? Did you get cold feet or something? Did you forget? i hardly think so since those of you who post here on a regular basis and who go to these seminars and tourneys. you know what i think, i think you guys are AFRAID to ask these questions for FEAR of some reprisal or bill leonard getting up in your face or any of the other seniors there.

If i could ask Sin The about it i would, but i understand the fear that you guys have by not bringing it up.

TWS
You mean, should we ask GM Sin if he's a liar, if the lineage he speaks of is not true? Fear isn't in it, it would be completely disrespectful to do so.
Not only that, but none of us truly cares about the lineage. What matters to us is that we've improved our lives, our health and our safety from his training. He's made us all better people, and we thank him for it and show him the respect he's earned.

[Citong Shifu]

Can anyone tell me if there are anymore SD videos online, other than the kwon do vid? I keep hearing others talk about other video examples, but cant seem to find them....

Thanks
Sifu Ron

[Judge Pen]

Can anyone tell me if there are anymore SD videos online, other than the kwon do vid? I keep hearing others talk about other video examples, but cant seem to find them....

Thanks
Sifu Ron

forms or fighting?


Here's an SD student in a MMA fight agasint a wrestler: http://media.putfile.com/ShaolinDo


Here's Jiu Jitsu Joe's fight with the same student: http://media.putfile.com/2nd-fight


And here's GM Sin The' himself (in the early 80s) breaking a block suspended by twine:
http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/4519/gmsinthebreak.mpg

Also, here is a site with videos (although I have difficulty viewing them on my computer): http://www.geocities.com/parker-duvall/student/

[MasterKiller]

Can anyone tell me if there are anymore SD videos online, other than the kwon do vid? I keep hearing others talk about other video examples, but cant seem to find them....

Thanks
Sifu Ron

Browse around here.

http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=1

http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=13

[Golden Tiger]

you know with this past tourney that you guys went to and such i wonder why none of you have ever asked Sin The' about all this. i seem to remember at somepoint that a few of you were going to? Did you get cold feet or something? Did you forget? i hardly think so since those of you who post here on a regular basis and who go to these seminars and tourneys. you know what i think, i think you guys are AFRAID to ask these questions for FEAR of some reprisal or bill leonard getting up in your face or any of the other seniors there.

Actually, I spent about 3 hours with him TWS and you know, we talked about a lot of stuff but satisfying your contention that he is a liar didn't seem to come up.

Sorry.:rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

Actually, I spent about 3 hours with him TWS and you know, we talked about a lot of stuff but satisfying your contention that he is a liar didn't seem to come up.

Sorry.:rolleyes:


Did he mention when the movie is coming out? :p

[Baqualin]

THAT PHOTO posted by GT was already answered by Gene ching. and i believe he said that was a buddhist Deityas it is very common for buddhist temples and taoist temples to carve images of the celestial deities and gods. its NOT Li Baoshu or as you guys call him (su kong). i thought you guys had better sense than that.


you know with this past tourney that you guys went to and such i wonder why none of you have ever asked Sin The' about all this. i seem to remember at somepoint that a few of you were going to? Did you get cold feet or something? Did you forget? i hardly think so since those of you who post here on a regular basis and who go to these seminars and tourneys. you know what i think, i think you guys are AFRAID to ask these questions for FEAR of some reprisal or bill leonard getting up in your face or any of the other seniors there.

If i could ask Sin The about it i would, but i understand the fear that you guys have by not bringing it up.

TWS
Why can't you ask him yourself:confused: You have proven nothing...not even that Su Kong is Li Baoshu.....I've listen to people like you for over 30 years and could care less...I'm personal friends with GSM and I know what we have, stories and legends are just that. Grand Master Sin came to this country as a very YOUNG man...he was raised in Indo. and trained in a way you cannot even conceive...he believes what he believes as it was passed on to him from GMIe.....who was for real...we have seen where GSM and his brother trained and met his colleages who some of are still alive. I did ask about you at the tourney and dude you got issues. I'm sorry for what happen to you...but you made your bed...sleep in it:)

[Baqualin]

Did he mention when the movie is coming out? :p

I must say, at least you make people smile.
You must have been born with a can opener in your mouth;)

[tattooedmonk]

the xia is what they refer to as the lower dan tien...... you know where your bowels are ...no wonder he is so full of SH*T!!!

[MasterKiller]

You guys can dig up 1928 photos of a Shaolin bath house, but how come no one can post a photograph of Ie Ching Men? Or how about a photograph of Sin with Ie?

[Flying-Monkey]

That happens alot on here.....please restate your main question.....I would like to respond.:)


Well, the main question is why are SD forms so different that people say they are not real kung fu?

[Flying-Monkey]

the xia is what they refer to as the lower dan tien...... you know where your bowels are ...no wonder he is so full of SH*T!!!


What is with the insults.

How can someone be full of Sh!t when they are asking questions. You bad mouth him when he feels his questions were not answer properly.

[The Willow Sword]

Check your PM's KC

[Flaca]

Hey TWS I am probably going to be in Austin in Feb at the tourney I will e-mail you then and set up a meeting with GMT do you agree to meet and ask your foolish questions/ ???? KC


Can I watch? :p

[Baqualin]

Well, the main question is why are SD forms so different that people say they are not real kung fu?

In my opinion, SD is not playing the correct type of scale.[/quote]

I couldn't agree with you more....I play guitar and understand scales very well.
Each musican also has his own flavor or tone that comes from his fingers or vocal chords. Forms are just like notes in music no one can play or sing a song the same way as the original musican....close sometimes, but not the same. The notes can be passed on, but how there played thats a different story. The problem is the further it gets away from the original musican the sound changes ( sometimes better)....but it's still the same notes (forms).
Would love to discuss this more...I have to go test this morning:)

[The Willow Sword]

Hey TWS I am probably going to be in Austin in Feb at the tourney I will e-mail you then and set up a meeting with GMT do you agree to meet and ask your foolish questions/ ???? KC


You know this will never happen, even though i agreed to it in pm's with KC. I envision a scenario where he goes up to sin the and tells him that there is a former disciple who wants to ask him some questions about the lineage and when he gives sin the a brief background on the subject he is going to get a scolding, because i dont think sin the or any of the senior masters close to him even know that you guys posts on these forums and if they did find out they would prolly get p!ssed at you guys and order you to stop posting here.

so i dont think this meeting will ever take place. TWS

[Yao Sing]

I'm sure there are plenty others around here that would step in for TWS and do the 'interview' with GMT.

In fact, I'll bet he get's a lot of requests for interviews and turns them down all the time. So if you have that much pull that you can get GMT to answer a few questions why not set up a real interview with an objective writer? I'm sure Gene would be willing to run the transcript in the magazine. At least it could be an e-zine article.

Heck, I'll do it if nobody else will.

BTW, I'm talking about a straight up interview with real questions, not a bashing session or a snow job.

[MasterKiller]

SO where's the photos of Ie?

[The Willow Sword]

Use your brain and reading comprehension skills KC and tell me where i said that i am backing out of it? Nowhere, correct? CORRECT. im saying YET AGAIN that i think it will not happen because of the reasons i mentioned earlier.

plus i dont think that KC has that much pull with Sin the' but i will give him the benefit of the doubt and just wait and see. Also KC feels there needs to be witnesses to corroborate what is said. so there will be a witness on his side of the fence and anyone who is not an SD person on my side who wished to witness with me then Pm me or state it so here and we are on.

but like i said earlier, this isnt going to happen, not because i want to back out of it(which i never said that i wanted to) but because sin the and his cohorts will advise him against this and KC will get the scolding of his life for being here on these forums along with the rest of the SD'ers who post and argue here. I am sure that bill leonard and sin the and a few of the other higher ups dont even want you guys posting on these forums. with the exception of maybe the mullins crew who had their own forums set up a while back right? but did it not get taken down because of the controversies and such?

HELL ill even BET That Gene ching and the KFM magazine would love to witness this meeting and report on the answers and put it in an issue for the early spring.

TWS

[Golden Tiger]

because i dont think sin the or any of the senior masters close to him even know that you guys posts on these forums and if they did find out they would prolly get p!ssed at you guys and order you to stop posting here.



They do...and they haven't;)

[The Willow Sword]

It was YOU who offered to set up this "Meeting" and it has been YOU who has made all these stipulations INCLUDING the Witnesses. I have just gone along with it and agreed to such a meeting, IF IT CAN BE SET UP (which i do not think it will).

i honestly do not know what kind of set up you are trying to pull here KC but this dialogue you are exhibiting now makes me wonder as to the real intentions of this meeting. if i make an added suggestion that there be someone on my side to witness all this then i have a right to do so. what do you think that i am stupid enough to go and meet with you guys at some location without having ANY type of representation on my end? I seem to remember this very thing being taken away from me when i went to go challenge reemul. sorry KC but i am not going to get singled out here. There are MANY who would LOVE the opportunity to ask sin the' questions about the history and lineage of what he claims. Yet sin the has turned down many offers to be interviewed( gee i wonder why:rolleyes: ) and yet YOU are just going to set up some informal meeting at a resteraunt? with just you two, so that these questions CAN be addressed?
LOLOLOLOL you must take me for a complete fool.

As for there being any danger to me with regards to you or any other sd goon wanting to take a crack at me because i am so disrespecting and offending their very honor and whatever BS they can think up, i could care less and i am not afraid of ANY of you. But i have since learned my lessons and will not be so naive .
now there is a recod of all this here on this forum, the record will show that YOU initiated this little meeting and that YOU made all the stipulations and conditions(even in Pm's) and that I accepted As long as no-one gets their panties in a wad and as long as there is no threats of violence.
You guys have a history of doing damage and getting up in peoples faces with bill leonard at the front of the pack, what with past rivalries and such.
And this isnt about some challenge match in the ring to see who is better, this is confronting the questions that we ALL Have with regards to all the outlandish claims that your school makes and what your school professes to teach only through them.
so if you can set it up KC then go ahead. give a date and a place and time, you show up with your witnesses to corrorborate and i will show up with mine(whomever wishes to do so)

personally i think this is all a bunch of horsesh!t, but hey i could be wrong. time will tell and we will all see. Let's all see if KC has the pull to actually set this up.


TWS

[Flying-Monkey]

In my opinion, SD is not playing the correct type of scale.

I couldn't agree with you more....I play guitar and understand scales very well.
Each musican also has his own flavor or tone that comes from his fingers or vocal chords. Forms are just like notes in music no one can play or sing a song the same way as the original musican....close sometimes, but not the same. The notes can be passed on, but how there played thats a different story. The problem is the further it gets away from the original musican the sound changes ( sometimes better)....but it's still the same notes (forms).
Would love to discuss this more...I have to go test this morning:)[/QUOTE]

I think of Kung fu as Classical music. People have been performing it for a long time but it for years but most of this pieces have not changed much.

As for adding flavor, I think of what Jaco Pastorius did with Charlie Parker's "Donna lee". The opening theme is the same but the solo is different. However, it is easily heard as the same song.

I feel that SD is like playing Punk Rock and saying it is Jazz.

[Flying-Monkey]

" honestly do not know what kind of set up you are trying to pull here KC but this dialogue you are exhibiting now makes me wonder as to the real intentions of this meeting. if i make an added suggestion that there be someone on my side to witness all this then i have a right to do so. what do you think that i am stupid enough to go and meet with you guys at some location without having ANY type of representation on my end? I seem to remember this very thing being taken away from me when i went to go challenge reemul."

"It is Feburary I will pay your way into the tournament then you can ask your questions. Or perhaps at Trudys GMT likes the Mexican food there ."

ORIGINAL STATEMENT BELOW
Hey TWS I am probably going to be in Austin in Feb at the tourney I will e-mail you then and set up a meeting with GMT do you agree to meet and ask your foolish questions/ ???? KC

I am offering to try to give you the opportunity to do what you said you wanted to do and now you are backing out. Your beef with Master Joe is your own thing you live in Austin why dont you go and tell him how you feel ? you know where he is ? Right. KC

"Dont try to pretend to know what I am going to say or do: you are making excuses. I am offering to try to give you the opportunity to do what you said you wanted to do "
WELL I GUESS IT WONT HAPPEN ALL I WANTED WAS A LITTLE INFORMAL QUESTION AND ANSWER SESSION JUST US 3, I probably could have pulled that off maybe. You see WS has opted to make this so complicated that it will never happen his Paranoia is exhibited with the ststement above. KC


I am willing to do it next summer. That give you a lot of time to set it up.

[Yao Sing]

I was thinking more along the lines of taping an impartial interview, transcribing it, then posting it up as an e-zine article or printed in the mag.

I can't imagine GMT agreeing to meet a hard core detractor and I don't think everyone here would take serious an SD proponent asking soft questions.

[Flying-Monkey]

Sorry Yao i dont know you. But thanks for the offer. KC

Why is not knowing him a problem?

[The Willow Sword]

KC is trying to state that i am wanting to back out of things and make excuses. well i keep on saying that i am NOT BACKING OUT OF ANYTHING.

I think that KC now realizes that this little informal meeting is not going to happen because it is not in sin the's interests to answer mine or anyones questions regarding the lineage of SD. i am totally agreeing to go to a meeting that KC is supposedly going to set up and ask some questions, and being that i was a former loyal follower of sd i think KC feels that SIn the would be up for having some quiet informal meeting at a resteraunt somewhere. but it will not happen because the situation is too complicated and not because i have made it such. KC had already stated to me that he wanted a witness to corroborate what was said so that there is not any and i quote from KC and his PM to me "Back Biting".
but he suggested the witness thing after i had proposed that it be me and me alone to go and talk to him without the SD goon squad in the background or KC for that matter. Just reread my last post on this page and nowhere does it say that i would not go. it just says that i am not going to go there ALONE, not that i am NOT GOING TO GO PERIOD, just that i wont be alone when i do.

KC is trying to spin this in a different direction to make it seem like i am wanting to chicken out on his little invitation, but that is far from the truth. if you look at what i have posted and what HE has posted, HE has said "well i guess it isnt going to happen because you want to make things complicated""and i wanted to make this a little informal gathering. well then if that is the case Then KC would have PM'ed me about it rather than broadcasting it here on the forums for everyone to read.
Its all a bunch of BS, and i am going to call the bluff here.
Set up your meeting KC, Bring SIn the and a witness, ill bring myself and a witness and we will have tex-mex and tea and ask these questions that you think are so foolish.
TWS

[Flaca]

KC is trying to state that i am wanting to back out of things and make excuses. well i keep on saying that i am NOT BACKING OUT OF ANYTHING.

I think that KC now realizes that this little informal meeting is not going to happen because it is not in sin the's interests to answer mine or anyones questions regarding the lineage of SD. i am totally agreeing to go to a meeting that KC is supposedly going to set up and ask some questions, and being that i was a former loyal follower of sd i think KC feels that SIn the would be up for having some quiet informal meeting at a resteraunt somewhere. but it will not happen because the situation is too complicated and not because i have made it such. KC had already stated to me that he wanted a witness to corroborate what was said so that there is not any and i quote from KC and his PM to me "Back Biting".
but he suggested the witness thing after i had proposed that it be me and me alone to go and talk to him without the SD goon squad in the background or KC for that matter. Just reread my last post on this page and nowhere does it say that i would not go. it just says that i am not going to go there ALONE, not that i am NOT GOING TO GO PERIOD, just that i wont be alone when i do.

KC is trying to spin this in a different direction to make it seem like i am wanting to chicken out on his little invitation, but that is far from the truth. if you look at what i have posted and what HE has posted, HE has said "well i guess it isnt going to happen because you want to make things complicated""and i wanted to make this a little informal gathering. well then if that is the case Then KC would have PM'ed me about it rather than broadcasting it here on the forums for everyone to read.
Its all a bunch of BS, and i am going to call the bluff here.
Set up your meeting KC, Bring SIn the and a witness, ill bring myself and a witness and we will have tex-mex and tea and ask these questions that you think are so foolish.
TWS

Having the conversation during the course of the tourney might be more appropriate. I'm assuming you want to have an intelligent conversation with GMT, and don't plan to act like a prosecuting attorney, with demands for proof etc. Anyone can talk to him at the tourney (I've done so in the past).
KC does have more access than I do, but you seem so belligerent that were I him, I'd not wager my good standing over your demands. Tienes cojones, talk to him yourself. Bring your witness, we don't check SDA membership at the door.

[Flying-Monkey]

Why can't he bring one witness?

[The Willow Sword]

the last time i communicated with Joe shaefer he told me not to come to any of their tournaments or any fucntion they had. He said he wanted to forget me and that if i tried to slander him in any way that he would bring lawyers into it and sue me.
This came after i had done my research on su kong and wanted to have my name in the black belt registry removed on the sd website, i had also been fed up with being harassed by a couple of sd people at the time and that was also a deciding factor to not want to be associated with SD. so you see going to a tournament is not possible and i have stayed away and had no desire to go to a sd tournament. Please note that this all went down in 2003 and have stayed away from Sd since(with the exception of posting here about my views on things)

and i am not being belligerant and would not be a prosecuting attorney with Sin The' my questions have to do with su kong and the research that i did on the subject.

TWS

[Golden Tiger]

As for there being any danger to me with regards to you or any other sd goon wanting to take a crack at me because i am so disrespecting and offending their very honor and whatever BS they can think up, i could care less and i am not afraid of ANY of you. But i have since learned my lessons and will not be so naive .



I am not only a member of the SD goon squad, I am the president.:rolleyes:

TWS, my friend, you crack me up.

[Flaca]

SO where's the photos of Ie?

I've never seen any photos of Ie, I've seen prints of 2 different paintings of him.

[Radhnoti]

I'd ask if GM Sin knows of any other lineage that believes Su Kong Tai Djin existed. Then a follow up question would be "why not" or "who are they"?
I'd ask if perhaps Su Kong is a slight distortion of Si Gung and if so why SDers call him "Grandmaster Su".
TWS, I'd show him the pics of Li and ask if he thinks they could be the same guy...

[Learn]

You paraphrased well. And most of the individuals that study SD for a while will admit (some freely and some begrudgingly) that their understanding of Pa Kua or [insert system here] is not at the depth that it would be if they had studied that system exclusively (from a teacher that taught that system exclusively). The end result of SD, because of the way it is taught, is that each individual learns the pieces of a system that works for them and that amalgamation is what SD is to them. What Sin The is a Master in, according to his certificate is Golden Snake. As far as I know, he hasn't publically taught or demonstrated his master style.

(deleted for the reason the post addressed other posts)

P.S. forgive the typos and spelling. I'm on my first cup of coffee.

Sounds kind of like some variation of the JKD approach. However, JKD does not purport to teach its students all of the various component styles. Actually, it purports to teach no style. That aside, it seems to me there is some dishonesty in creating the impression in students and potential students, that by learning SD one will learn all of these various styles. The whole lineage/monkey guy thing is added fuel for the fire, but I don't much worry about those things as lineage and mythology is full of hyperbole throughout CMA. I do have a concern that SD can teach the various styles, from which a student picks the elements that appeal to him, when nobody in the system has genuinely mastered all of the systems. Assuming Sin The has, the instructors the student is going to train with on a regular basis has not. Your thoughts?

[Golden Tiger]

it seems to me there is some dishonesty in creating the impression in students and potential students, that by learning SD one will learn all of these various styles.


If I may (and will anyway)....

I am not sure what exact styles you are refering to but lets take Hsing Ie for example because I was taught it many years ago and have taught it for years. Now I will be the first to admit that I am not a Hsing Ie master and to my knowledge, noone in SD claims to be a master of XX style other than of SD. That said, after seeing other schools that teach it exclusively and what they offer, I feel that SD offers as much if not more. We teach the 5 roads, the linkage, the 12 animals, a 2 man set, the bo and the jian. I (cant speak to the rest) also teach the 5 elements, the cycles, the breathing and meditation, the chi flow and shattering hand. This is generally taught over a 2 year period. Also, I can incorporate things I have learned from the other systems which helps alot.

So, I am not sure how you call that false advertising or dishonesty. If a student wanted to master hsing Ie and Hsing Ie only, I would simply tell them to seek another school, done it quite a few times in fact.

So again, I happen to think SD has a lot to offer. It kept me busy for a long time and I still learn everytime I go through something.

[Flying-Monkey]

...in your opinion.....why is it not shaolin? why is it not kung fu?? why is it not traditional ? why is it not chinese ? are you chinese?

The forms don't seems to be