Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[BlueTravesty]

The "old classical" style of teaching probably didn't include a heck of a lot of forms. According to Adam Hsu (the Sword Polisher's Record) as well as Brian Kennedy and Elizabeth Guo (Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals) forms were not emphasized nearly as much as single-movement training, drilling, and of course, good old Blood Sweat and Tears. Forms were considered a high-level form of training, for those who had learned how to punch and kick, and move properly and were ready to step things up (Adam Hsu likened them to a Master's degree or PhD.) Anyone who has not read those books, by the way, owes it to themselves to get their hands on them- they are both books that (thankfully) don't focus on showing techniques, but focus more on the informative aspects Martial Arts research.

This is not to say that people who do forms without mastering a style are "doing it wrong." It IS to say that a good, solid understanding of body mechanics and movement as well as the rudiments of that style should be grasped before moving on to more forms. And while it's not necessarily the teacher's responsibility to spoon-feed information, it IS up to the teacher to say "You know what, you're not ready to learn Drunken/Mantis/Tiger/Whatever. Keep working on X before moving to Y." Rather than seeing a frustrated student asking about how to correct issues with the form and the teacher repeating Fortune Cookie wisdom about how one must seek their own path.

[tattooedmonk]

You know, i never really considered that. Then again, I might be better than I think I am. Cool, thank TTM:rolleyes:No problem...you know I have a great deal of respect for you and the others that have been following Master Sin for so long through all this bullsh** keep up the good work!!!

[Golden Tiger]

No problem...you know I have a great deal of respect for you and the others that have been following Master Sin for so long through all this bullsh** keep up the good work!!!

If you keep a few steps upwind, its not all that bad.:D

[Flaca]

Well, I hate to say it, but the fu in kung fu means work, right? These people look like they are having way too easy a time.

I guess that's my big gripe with chain schools is they don't seem to produce a quality product. The last school that I went to that had any effort to it was actually Oyama Karate in NYC. Those guys worked out hard. I always went home sore as hell.

Umm, the pictures are of a festival, not of training. One rarely 'trains' with GM Sin. One 'tests' in front of GM Sin, but mostly one learns forms/katas from one of his 40 or so masters.

[Baqualin]

The "old classical" style of teaching probably didn't include a heck of a lot of forms. According to Adam Hsu (the Sword Polisher's Record) as well as Brian Kennedy and Elizabeth Guo (Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals) forms were not emphasized nearly as much as single-movement training, drilling, and of course, good old Blood Sweat and Tears. Forms were considered a high-level form of training, for those who had learned how to punch and kick, and move properly and were ready to step things up (Adam Hsu likened them to a Master's degree or PhD.) Anyone who has not read those books, by the way, owes it to themselves to get their hands on them- they are both books that (thankfully) don't focus on showing techniques, but focus more on the informative aspects Martial Arts research.

This is not to say that people who do forms without mastering a style are "doing it wrong." It IS to say that a good, solid understanding of body mechanics and movement as well as the rudiments of that style should be grasped before moving on to more forms. And while it's not necessarily the teacher's responsibility to spoon-feed information, it IS up to the teacher to say "You know what, you're not ready to learn Drunken/Mantis/Tiger/Whatever. Keep working on X before moving to Y." Rather than seeing a frustrated student asking about how to correct issues with the form and the teacher repeating Fortune Cookie wisdom about how one must seek their own path.

Grand Master Sin taught this way in the 60's and 70's into the early eighties. As he got older I think he realized all the material would be lost if he didn't start teaching it out. Also as the schools began to grow across the country students wanted more upper level forms to compete in kung fu tournaments which were starting to pop up everywhere. So the SD form firehose was born along with the evolution of SD itself. For the old time students this has made us happy.....we can now enjoy the benefits of all those years of drilling and conditioning and dreaming of forms we only heard rumors about.....for the newer students it can be a bit overwhelming. The evolution I see there has been enough material taught out to start specializing in a particular system within SD....this is one of the reasons why GSM has separated the internal from the external. This still has a long way to go and politic's has a tendency to slow things down, but the evolution is happening and I for one am very grateful, I can now following my passion of Tai Chi, Baqua and Hsing I for the rest of my life:D

TTM.....It was a compliment and I think you caught my meaning:cool:

[The Xia]

Look, the lineage is silly and contradicts history and Willow Sword showed how Su Kong was a circus attraction named Li Baoshu. You can have all the forms in the world but so can anybody who wants to buy allot of books. The fact is everyone I've seen that has watched Shaolin Do in action, and is a Chinese martial arts expert, says that it isn't even Chinese martial arts, let alone Shaolin Kung Fu. It is clear that you are blinded to reason and that no amount of proof or logic works. The average KFM poster tends to avoid this thread. Most of you Shaolin Doka don't venture out of this thread. Instead, you stay here where you can each re-enforce each others denial instead of listening to reason.

[Citong Shifu]

Umm, the pictures are of a festival, not of training. One rarely 'trains' with GM Sin. One 'tests' in front of GM Sin, but mostly one learns forms/katas from one of his 40 or so masters.


Whatever happened to the Chinese martial arts concept of - one master and one grandmaster???? 40 or so masters????? Dont know....

[Baqualin]

Look, the lineage is silly and contradicts history and Willow Sword showed how Su Kong was a circus attraction named Li Baoshu. You can have all the forms in the world but so can anybody who wants to buy allot of books. The fact is everyone I've seen that has watched Shaolin Do in action, and is a Chinese martial arts expert, says that it isn't even Chinese martial arts, let alone Shaolin Kung Fu. It is clear that you are blinded to reason and that no amount of proof or logic works. The average KFM poster tends to avoid this thread. Most of you Shaolin Doka don't venture out of this thread. Instead, you stay here where you can each re-enforce each others denial instead of listening to reason.

Willow Sword PROVED nothing...go back and review the post.....do you have short term memory loss? Also, I see us and all of the same people on all the forums. And who have you seen that's seen the real us...as a matter of fact you where called out earlier in this thread and I have seen nothing from you to justify your martial knowledge other than your fingers on a keyboard...in the words of EML SHOW ME:rolleyes:

[Baqualin]

Whatever happened to the Chinese martial arts concept of - one master and one grandmaster???? 40 or so masters????? Dont know....

Where are you located in S. Ill. I was born in Cairo and was raised in the Paducah area...maybe sometime when I go home to visit we can meet and trade knowledge...then you can see for youself....we're very open and good people...always willing to learn and share.

[tattooedmonk]

Look, the lineage is silly and contradicts history and Willow Sword showed how Su Kong was a circus attraction named Li Baoshu. You can have all the forms in the world but so can anybody who wants to buy allot of books. The fact is everyone I've seen that has watched Shaolin Do in action, and is a Chinese martial arts expert, says that it isn't even Chinese martial arts, let alone Shaolin Kung Fu. It is clear that you are blinded to reason and that no amount of proof or logic works. The average KFM poster tends to avoid this thread. Most of you Shaolin Doka don't venture out of this thread. Instead, you stay here where you can each re-enforce each others denial instead of listening to reason. Ok this is just gone past rediculous...

you seem to be the one that does not understand that nothing has been proven here to say that Shaolin Do is not real Shaolin ...

you are the person that does not seem to understand simple logic and reason...

you believe too much of what is written and perpetuated by other schools but still have yet to show any reason why we should accept what you say as anything other than bullsh**.

what makes their lineage authentic ?? because it is well known, because it is believed by so many people ,because it is perpetuated by the masses because they wear a certain type of clothing , because they use certain terminology , because they wear shoes?? This does not prove anything

like I said your are talking about the people that will lie just to save face.

I have talked to many people who claim this and that about there lineage ..and yet still can not prove anything ..so what if they have scrolls that say this and that and have pictures this person and that person does it prove anything???


so F**KING what if the lineage is silly, contradicts the history and lineage of other schools , Su Kong is the circus performer Li Bao Shu and the forms are collected out of books.

This does not make it in anyway not real Shaolin.

.....like I said Shaolin is philosophical school of thought who's teachings have been added to, adapted to and modified for centuries. Shaolin has gone back and forth between styles and religious affiliation since Ba tuo was first teaching there and when Bodhidharma took over.

Shaolin is a state of mind, spirit, and body ...away of life......it is not a collection of styles, bulidings, or religions.

the name says it all Shaolin Do -The Way of Shaolin

Even if it eventually is proven that it is all made up by Ie Chang Ming and Master Sin then I will still be here telling you it is still Shaolin and that it is a F**KING ingenius piece of work by the artist who created it !!

As far as your other ramblings I am not going to even bother..

you clearly have nothing better to do with your time .

..but let me make this suggestion.... next time you post here.... first pull your head out of your @$$ .... then proceed.... unless you like the view of your colon.

[godzillakungfu]

Whatever happened to the Chinese martial arts concept of - one master and one grandmaster???? 40 or so masters????? Dont know....

Hmmmm I don't know. This is up for serious debate if you really know your chinese MA history.

[Fei jiao]

Every traditional chinese martial artist I know or even only heard of accepts and recognize real kung fu, whatever the style is. They accept Hung gar, Choy Lay Fut, Wing Chun, Fujian White Crane, Tibetan White Crane, Northern Shaolin, Mantis, Lung Yin, Eagle claw etc....as legitimate systems. But if you mention Shaolin-Do they say "what???"
The only people that seem to accept SD as a legitimate style are SD practicionners. I think it's time you guys get a clue.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against what you do, whatever floats your boat. Just don't pretend it's something that it's not, that's all!

[tattooedmonk]

Willow Sword PROVED nothing...go back and review the post.....do you have short term memory loss? Also, I see us and all of the same people on all the forums. And who have you seen that's seen the real us...as a matter of fact you where called out earlier in this thread and I have seen nothing from you to justify your martial knowledge other than your fingers on a keyboard...in the words of EML SHOW ME:rolleyes: To:The Xia...put up or shut the F**K UP!!!..

by the way thanx......I knew what you meant.

[tattooedmonk]

Every traditional chinese martial artist I know or even only heard of accepts and recognize real kung fu, whatever the style is. They accept Hung gar, Choy Lay Fut, Wing Chun, Fujian White Crane, Tibetan White Crane, Northern Shaolin, Mantis, Lung Yin, Eagle claw etc....as legitimate systems. But if you mention Shaolin-Do they say "what???"
The only people that seem to accept SD as a legitimate style are SD practicionners. I think it's time you guys get a clue.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against what you do, whatever floats your boat. Just don't pretend it's something that it's not, that's all!you realize that the reason why they say that are superficial reasons and to save face.

it is a completely different lineage and tradition..you should take your own advice ..and get a clue!!

I have been stopped at parks all over by chinese people while wearing my "GI" and asked why I do Chinese martial arts but wear a japanese uniform...

I explain and they understand....this whole different appearence and superficial Sh*t has got you all psychologically all f**ked up....

How come it is that all the critics and judges of the style have never taken a class or attended a seminar with us and have only seen video or read web pages and yet seem to be authorities of what is and what is not..I just do not get it!!

It must be retardation or something....


Oh by the way.....you know that Jow Ga practitoners and San Soo practitioners have a different lineage too...plus they have belt ranking systems..... are they not kung fu or Shaolin??

[Fei jiao]

How come it is that all the critics and judges of the style have never taken a class or attended a seminar with us and have only seen video or read web pages and yet seem to be authorities of what is and what is not..I just do not get it!!

Oh, I've seen the video. A video of Sin The doing what is supposed to be a Praying Mantis form (looked nothing like Mantis to me, and he was so stiff he looked nothing like a grandmaster, but hey, if that suits you, fine!). I've seen the web pages too. And no I haven't taken a seminar and I don't plan to either (espescially after seeing your grandmaster perform).

[Judge Pen]

Most of you Shaolin Doka don't venture out of this thread. Instead, you stay here where you can each re-enforce each others denial instead of listening to reason.

That's not all true. I'd say only 1/3 of my posts are in this thread. :D

[Citong Shifu]

Where are you located in S. Ill. I was born in Cairo and was raised in the Paducah area...maybe sometime when I go home to visit we can meet and trade knowledge...then you can see for youself....we're very open and good people...always willing to learn and share.


Baqualin, Yes, that would ok with me... I would really like to see SD... I have seen one video and lots of SD pics, but nothing that could give me a good idea of what SD really is. Know what I mean.... Anywho, let me know when ur in so. illinois...

Sfiu Ron...

[Yao Sing]

How come it is that all the critics and judges of the style have never taken a class or attended a seminar with us and have only seen video or read web pages...

Something I've been meaning to ask, are SD seminars open to no-SD members?

I don't know enough about SD or the styles it teaches so I can't make any comparisons. I've commented that the local SD guys look like they train just as hard as anyone else in the business.

What I have observed though is the movement and whether the forms are Chinese, Japanese or Burmese the movement itself is much more similar to Japanese Karate than to Chinese Kung Fu.

All humans are built fundamentally the same so techniques can only vary a finite amount. Long weapons and short weapons are interchangeable within each respected group. Hand a Karateka a Kwan Do and I'm sure he could use it effectivily if he has any Naginata training.

What separates them more than anything, I think, is the movement. There is a different flow to most Chinese arts that is missing in SD. I think this is the point a lot of people try to make but the issue of the sets themselves seems to drown it out.

Each stylist will perform according to what he knows. The Japanes turned Zhonguo Chuan Fa into Kenpo, the Indonesians turned Shaolin into Shaolin Do.

[Baqualin]

Baqualin, Yes, that would ok with me... I would really like to see SD... I have seen one video and lots of SD pics, but nothing that could give me a good idea of what SD really is. Know what I mean.... Anywho, let me know when ur in so. illinois...

Sfiu Ron...

Great, I'll email you at the yahoo address so you can get my email and we''ll go from there....plan to be down that way either right before Xmas or right after. Wish all would be as open minded as you...all martial arts are from the same family. Peace

[Baqualin]

Bak Mei video (Zhong Luo performing)
Views: 190 Posted By The Xia
What is the reverse breathing method?

What is the reverse breathing method?

Here's an example of Xia's CMA knowledge:p

[The Xia]

That's not all true. I'd say only 1/3 of my posts are in this thread. :D
Judge Pen, I was not talking about you when I said that. I've seen your posts elsewhere. I was talking about other people on this thread.

Bak Mei video (Zhong Luo performing)
Views: 190 Posted By The Xia
What is the reverse breathing method?

What is the reverse breathing method?

Here's an example of Xia's CMA knowledge:p
If you know what is meant by the reverse breathing method feel free to explain it...in the Southern Forum thread, not here. ;)


As for me "putting up or shutting up", how many times do I have to say it, what I do isn't relevant to this discussion.

[tattooedmonk]

Oh, I've seen the video. A video of Sin The doing what is supposed to be a Praying Mantis form (looked nothing like Mantis to me, and he was so stiff he looked nothing like a grandmaster, but hey, if that suits you, fine!). I've seen the web pages too. And no I haven't taken a seminar and I don't plan to either (espescially after seeing your grandmaster perform). so you are going to judge the whole system, art, and grandmaster on just a few seconds of video and web page pictures? how shallow...

how it looks??

are you really this stupid??

all that matters is how it works in application..... period!!

..you spend all this time judging and being critical yet have no clue as to what you are talking about..

I know the video you are talking about I was there when it was filmed..

it is a hard style of mantis not performance art wushu. our art is done for it's intended purpose first...

all that flowery SH*T will not get it done in a real fight .

I have watched so called kung fu masters get their @$$es handed to them because they thought doing all that pretty CR@P was going to help them...

wrong


..most of what is out there that calls it's self 'KUNGFU" or "Shaolin" is just a joke.

you get up to blue belt in ShaolinDo and and you will have more fighting tools and capabilities than most blackbelts/ sashes in other arts..

so save all your bullsh*t about what you have seen...because you ain't seen nothin' yet...

[Yao Sing]

SD is not classical Karate those of you who say it is , wouldnt know Karate from a hole in the ground. Also the Naginata is a totally different weapon and the principles are not the same as the Kwan Tao that statement is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. KC

Alright, way to transcend the art there KC.

Believe it or not some of us see the similarities where others only see difference. Come back when you've opened your mind a bit.

[Yao Sing]

There I was, standing in an empty room facing 3 armed Karateka. The first had a pair of Tonfa, the second a pair of Sai, and the thrid had a pair of Nunchuku. I backed away slowly looking for an escape route.

My back to a wall I reached up and off the wall I pulled ........











......... a Naginata! My mind raced as I tried understand this foreign weapon. I'm well versed in Chinese weapons, Kwan Do, Long Handle Nine Ring. But this, this strange weapon, was unknown to me. How would I operate this long stick with a blade on the end? What were it's principles?

I knew my time had come.

[tattooedmonk]

Something I've been meaning to ask, are SD seminars open to no-SD members?

I don't know enough about SD or the styles it teaches so I can't make any comparisons. I've commented that the local SD guys look like they train just as hard as anyone else in the business.

What I have observed though is the movement and whether the forms are Chinese, Japanese or Burmese the movement itself is much more similar to Japanese Karate than to Chinese Kung Fu.

All humans are built fundamentally the same so techniques can only vary a finite amount. Long weapons and short weapons are interchangeable within each respected group. Hand a Karateka a Kwan Do and I'm sure he could use it effectivily if he has any Naginata training.

What separates them more than anything, I think, is the movement. There is a different flow to most Chinese arts that is missing in SD. I think this is the point a lot of people try to make but the issue of the sets themselves seems to drown it out.

Each stylist will perform according to what he knows. The Japanes turned Zhonguo Chuan Fa into Kenpo, the Indonesians turned Shaolin into Shaolin Do.no you have to be a student..

all the rest of this is true..

it is the movement and the outward appearences

you take some one from SD and have them do the tiger crane duet and someone who does Hung gar and you will find that the one looks japanese( hard and rigid) and one looks chinese ( soft and fluid) the form is still from chinese origin.... and all that matters is whether it works or not ...right??

there are benefits from doing it both ways ( yin yang principle.)

does it not stand to reason considering the history and lineage that it would look like karate to hide the fact that it is chinese so that it could be taught in Indonesia??? I mean think about it.....

[Flying-Monkey]

no you have to be a student..

all the rest of this is true..

it is the movement and the outward appearences

you take some one from SD and have them do the tiger crane duet and someone who does Hung gar and you will find that the one looks japanese( hard and rigid) and one looks Chinese ( soft and fluid) the form is still from Chinese origin.... and all that matters is whether it works or not ...right??

there are benefits from doing it both ways ( yin yang principle.)

does it not stand to reason considering the history and lineage that it would look like karate to hide the fact that it is Chinese so that it could be taught in Indonesia??? I mean think about it.....

I disagree. Hung gar's tiger/crane is not soft. The SD version does not look like a variation. It looks like the person does not fully understand it.

With kung fu, it doesn't matter if it works or not. I know that sounds crazy, but it is true. There is a lot of bad kung fu. What I mean by bad is that I feel that style is useless. However, it is kung fu. My opinion is that a lot kung fu styles don't work. SD may or may not work, but just because it works well does not make it kung fu.

Long ago, SD might of had a Chinese base (I strongly doubt it). HOWEVER, it is not kung fu now

[lunghushan]

I disagree. Hung gar's tiger/crane is not soft. The SD version does not look like a variation. It looks like the person does not fully understand it.

With kung fu, it doesn't matter if it works or not. I know that sounds crazy, but it is true. There is a lot of bad kung fu. What I mean by bad is that I feel that style is useless. However, it is kung fu. My opinion is that a lot kung fu styles don't work. SD may or may not work, but just because it works well does not make it kung fu.

Long ago, SD might of had a Chinese base (I strongly doubt it). HOWEVER, it is not kung fu now

So it really is even worse than the # of sets ... they do all their sets the same, like KARATE???

They don't do their taiji like karate, do they?

[kungfujunky]

no we are not like karate.

on a trip to china there was an old chinese man performing for our group. he did a straight sword form that was exactly like ours. he did a hsing yi linkage form that was exactly like ours...how would this old man know our material if it was japanese or indonesian karate?

the migration of our kung fu has added flavors to it that make people think that it is not in fact kung fu. but what we do is in fact kung fu.

does all mantis look the same? no

does all tai chi look the same? no

does all hsing yi look the same? no

there are differences in everything cma.

every village has differences. every temple as well. to say you know what cma looks like is just silly. even robert smith claimed vehemently that their were no southern temples in china. and then lo and behold not 1 but 3 temples surface (just as sd has claimed since the late 60's.....odd conicidence that one).

if you dont like what we do fine..but dont pretend to be experts on something that is an oral history and tradition no matter what "style" you follow.

you say other people accept hung gar white crane etc as real cma...well we do all those systems in sd..we are not a system of kung fu. we cover all systems....if you want to focus on one style then sd isnt for you plain and simple. if you want to taste all that kung fu offers then drop by and check us out.

we train hard and we have fun!

[The Xia]

It'd be beneficial to the discussion to post videos of Sin The on this thread. If anyone has any, put them here. After all, he is the highest ranking member of Shaolin Do is he not?

[lunghushan]

we train hard and we have fun!

Well, good for you.

I still can't believe that people buy the entire story with those pics and everything, but whatever. :)

[Judge Pen]

It'd be beneficial to the discussion to post videos of Sin The on this thread. If anyone has any, put them here. After all, he is the highest ranking member of Shaolin Do is he not?

Yes, but, candidly, he is not the best forms person. The people that I would offer up are not interested in putting their material out in a public forum. In their mind, they have nothing to gain. So all I can do is give you a shoddy example in me.

[lunghushan]

Yes, but, candidly, he is not the best forms person. The people that I would offer up are not interested in putting their material out in a public forum. In their mind, they have nothing to gain. So all I can do is give you a shoddy example in me.

Your kwan do form didn't look bad -- it just seemed like the stances were a bit high.

Anyway, whatever. I personally am not going to take Shaolin-Do but if a bunch of people want to do it, whatever.

Couldn't be any worse than USSD or something.

[godzillakungfu]

I can find some of the sets in other arts. I have found our linkage and our version of the 2 man set done by a respected Xingyi practitioner. I have also found the exact version of all the roads of Hua minus #4. Modern Hua was created by GMT according to two individuals on the west.

I said it way back in the thread. I feel GMT has legit MA training that, is why I respect GMT. Now, whether it is all shaolin or added shaolin is up for debate.

I have my opinions on the shaolin part, that I tend to keep off the thread.

Its funny because, I've been subject of, part of, or the actual person in 4 of the bigger rumors on this entire combined thread.

[lunghushan]

Its funny because, I've been subject of, part of, or the actual person in 4 of the bigger rumors on this entire combined thread.

What, are you saying you're the hairy guy in the photo?

[Yao Sing]

no we are not like karate.

on a trip to china there was an old chinese man performing for our group. he did a straight sword form that was exactly like ours. he did a hsing yi linkage form that was exactly like ours...how would this old man know our material if it was japanese or indonesian karate?

Ok, let's get the points together and not jump around so much. You say SD is not like Karate but then go on with an example showing how it isn't exactly Karate.

The argument is that SD is performed like Karate. Whether the sets are Japanese or Chinese is a distinctly different argument.

Now in your eyes, and your opinion, SD is not at all like Karate but to many others outside SD the practitioners move more like Karate than Kung Fu. And these others for the most part have extensive training to back them up. Some with training in both Japanese and Chinese arts.

Seems like the only ones that don't believe it looks like Karate are the SD folks.

Personally I don't care either way. It's just an interesting puzzle to solve.

[lunghushan]

The puzzle is how people get duped into these big chain schools. That's the puzzle.

We talked about that a lot on the Oom Young Doe thread. Basically they have no prior experience and don't know any better.

It's quite a concept if you think about it. Do you think the reason these people like Sin The can succeed so well is that nobody can track down their lineage because they started so long ago?

It seems these days you'd have a much harder time because people could track down your story.

[Leto]

I've got to speak up here, too. The forms taught in shaolin do are not like karate kata at all. People on here are talking about these martial arts that they don't seem to have any knowledge of. Are we talking Okinawan karate, or the derived Japanese methods? Naha te, or Shuri te? Or generic American karate/kempo? I can tell you that shaolin do has neither Okinawan nor Japanese material in its curriculum. The closest thing would be the way some of the lower belt techniques are taught as one-step sparring. None of the forms are even close. The most "karate-like" thing are the unforms and belts (which have nothing to do with the material itself).

Another random point...naginata do is not a part of karate do, it is a Japanese koryu/budo. Karate is an Okinawan art that was exported to Japan in the 20th century. Okinawan karate is derived from old styles of Chinese martial arts, including southern shaolin styles. Some Okinawan styles, like Uechi Ryu, are still very close to their Chinese roots.

If you practice a style of karate, and have also practiced shaolin do, and have found matching material please speak up. What style do you practice? What kata does your style have that are also in shaolin do?

[lunghushan]

I've got to speak up here, too. The forms taught in shaolin do are not like karate kata at all.

...

If you practice a style of karate, and have also practiced shaolin do, and have found matching material please speak up. What style do you practice? What kata does your style have that are also in shaolin do?

Do people actually READ the forum? What was said that the way the katas were done, the body movement, body method, "shen fa" was like karate. Nobody said the katas were karate katas.

[kungfujunky]

So it really is even worse than the # of sets ... they do all their sets the same, like KARATE???

They don't do their taiji like karate, do they?

ummm you said that

[BentMonk]

http://iron-body.com/bboard/index.php/topic,370.0.html

This is why I feel that nearly all lineage claims made by anyone should be taken with a grain of salt and not used as any real measure of authenticity or effectiveness. My 12 years in SD have given me strength, flexibility (well, more than I had when I started, which was none), improved balance and coordination, a well conditioned body, a more focused mind, the ability to defend myself and my family, and a second family. This is more than I asked for when I started. If I had not gotten these things, I would not still be training there, regardless of what the CMA or any other community thought about SD. The fact that I have gotten all of these things from SD is why I continue to train there despite the constant beating of this poor horse. I think my posts on this thread, and everywhere else on the net show that I am neither naive or stupid. The people on this thread and I are not the only ones who feel this way about SD. There are a few thousand people besides us. :D I direct your attention back to the link I posted above before you sing me the "no one said it wasn't beneficial, it's just not CMA" song. We now return you to your regularly scheduled program already in progress. :D

[Learn]

I would agree that SD is not Karate. I've studied Japanese arts and it's not the same. The use of Japanese terms does cause confusion however. Radhnoti, your quotes from de Thouars (sp?) are interesting and relevant. However, SD does not purport to teach principles in depth, but a large number of forms. It is simply ridiculous to think that learning many forms from many styles also enables one to learn the principles of those styles in depth. I'm all for learning the relevant concepts of many different styles, but you should market yourself as such. That's where SD goes awry. The whole lineage thing, which really means nothing to me, is so ridiculous and fantastical. SD does itself no favors with it. If Sin The has mastered certain arts, great, teach them. But to suggest that by studying SD you can learn all of these different arts, which is how it is taught, is not credible. To suggest you can study a particular art in detail assumes that your teacher has mastered all of them and you can pick and choose, which is not the case.

[Learn]

Learning forms is not learning the principles. Forms are a catalog of techniques. The strategies and principles must be taught beyond the forms. The forms are stepping stones to understanding. That's why you can't learn a style by video. You need an instructor to explain the nuances of every movement. This assumes that forms are a good way to learn a martial art, about which there is significant debate. I did a pretty good dao form in my day. I still love working Chinese sword. However, it really didn't teach me to fight with it.

Judge Pen, saw your Quan Do form on video. Congratulations. You did a nice job with a very difficult weapon. I used to practice that form with a homemade weapon made by an assistant instructor with a torch. It must have weighed forty pounds. I don't regret practicing that form. It makes you strong. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

But do you really think you could fight with that weapon based on that form? It seems to me a relevant question to this discussion.

[lunghushan]

ummm you said that

No, I did NOT. I said 'do it like karate'. Do you even understand the distinction? Do you even understand how the body movement behind Yang taiji for example is different from karate?

[lunghushan]

It seems like what we're dealing with here is people who have had exposure to 'Shaolin-Do'. They do Shaolin-Do. They do dozens of katas, all the same.

They don't have any understanding of stance work or anything like that.

This seems obvious because they don't even understand the distinction between a karate kata and doing it like karate.

Their master has NO videos of his movements (surprise), so who can really tell. Anyway, whatever.

If Shaolin-Do people are having fun at what they do and they like it, then who are we to criticize them? They are just another chain school.

[Learn]

It is unfortunate that SD purports, or maybe purported, itself to be a type of karate, for marketing purposes because at some time karate was the thing to do in the US. In the seventies, Kung Fu became the buzzword. It's interesting that SD didn't latch onto that. Ultimately the disappointment is that SD didn't just market itself and not latch onto what was big at the time. But perhaps the ultimate disapointment is that someone marketed himself as the grandmaster of all the shaolin styles, the animals, ba gau, tai ji, hsing i, the weapons, etc, when such is obviously impossible.

[BentMonk]

Geez...I post a link to a really good article on the history of CMA, and you guys are still arguing semantics. :rolleyes:

[kungfujunky]

lung you are a bitter man lol

all we do is stances lol

in our warmups in our training in our forms in our sparring in everything we work stances

next assumed idea please.

or better yet quit pretending to know and go see a class.

[lunghushan]

Geez...I post a link to a really good article on the history of CMA, and you guys are still arguing semantics. :rolleyes:

It's not semantics. I shudder to think what your forms must be like if you don't even understand how Yang taiji body movement is different from karate. Not the FORM, the body movement.

Anyways, whatever. I won't waste any more time on this. If what you do works for you, then whatever. USSD has tons of students too. As does Temple Kung Fu. As does Oom Young Doe and all those chain schools.

[kungfujunky]

Geez...I post a link to a really good article on the history of CMA, and you guys are still arguing semantics. :rolleyes:


do you have this book bent? if so is it worth the money because i am very close to paying up for it!

lmk either in pm or here

[lunghushan]

lung you are a bitter man lol

all we do is stances lol

in our warmups in our training in our forms in our sparring in everything we work stances

next assumed idea please.

or better yet quit pretending to know and go see a class.

You know, I'll NEVER go see one of your classes. After talking to you it's obvious you're clueless. I've been to USSD, Temple Kung Fu, Oom Young Doe. It's obvious you're just another chain school.

[kungfujunky]

You know, I'll NEVER go see one of your classes. After talking to you it's obvious you're clueless. I've been to USSD, Temple Kung Fu, Oom Young Doe. It's obvious you're just another chain school.



and i knew you would never go see a class. you are to happy being wrapped in your assumptions to want to see it for yourself.

keep calling us chain schools lol

we wont take the bait. you need to relax man.

when im up in seattle for the next masters festival i would be happy to meet in a park and demonstrate our stuff for you.

:) ;)

[lunghushan]

and i knew you would never go see a class. you are to happy being wrapped in your assumptions to want to see it for yourself.

keep calling us chain schools lol

we wont take the bait. you need to relax man.

when im up in seattle for the next masters festival i would be happy to meet in a park and demonstrate our stuff for you.

:) ;)

It's okay. Whenever I need my chain-school fix I go visit the local USSD which is only 2 blocks away.

[kungfujunky]

have fun then

but ill still post on here when ill be up there if you ever want to actually see what you dont know

[lunghushan]

I've been to taiji schools. Yang Family taiji headquarters is in my town. I've been to xingyi schools. I've been to bagua schools. I've been to Hung Gar schools.

I don't need to go to Shaolin-Do.

I barely got out of Temple Kung-Fu alive. I don't want to go through that debacle again.

[Yao Sing]

I have trained in Okinawan and Japanese Karate for greater than 13 years as well as aikido and Ju Jitsu and I assure you SD is not Karate ...

Ok, then maybe you can offer an explanation why it's performed like Karate.

... the transmission of power and Philosophy of movement is in no way similar ...

So why does it look so similar to anyone with any MA training? You guys seem to see something that nobody outside your group seems to see. And why is it such an insult to you guys to be compared to Karate?

I trained under Nishiyama Okazaki and others as well as Uchi Deshi Of Morehei Usheba founder of Aikido now why dont you open your mind and admit you havent seen it all and dont know everything KC

That's not hard to admit, I haven't seen it all and I don't know everything. The thing is I never made either of those claims so why did you bother to say that?

[kungfujunky]

then i would be honored if you would meet up and exchange ideas. let me kow what im missing.

[godzillakungfu]

What, are you saying you're the hairy guy in the photo?
Uhmmm rumor is something basically unsubstantiated.

The hairy guy existed so, that doesn't qualify as a rumor.:p

[lunghushan]

then i would be honored if you would meet up and exchange ideas. let me kow what im missing.

We don't need to meet up ... there's something called Youtube now.

Mas Oyama, Karate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FteS-NxwXsA

Cheng Man Ching

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqLxMPIVAlo

Dai Xingyi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdrrolaThc8

Bagua:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icwEuTHsDKM

Adam Hsu Bagua:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD1CKp0QkvM&mode=related&search=

Liu Jingru Bagua:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOG6qXUGAWM&mode=related&search=

[kungfujunky]

the yang tai chi is nearly exactly how we do it...little less stop and go though although chen is awesome to watch. i actually find his sticky hand sparring clips more informational as far as content

the sparring in the karate clip was rough to say the least...we guard ourselves much better than that but i do see where our 1 step practices could be confused with karate..very linear movements.


the dai hsing yi clip was interesting...do you believe that is good hsing yi or just ok? to me he looked to be off center...his balance was forward and there was no rooting. thats an interesting style of hsing yi.....


the adam pa kua clip looked a lot like what we do. do you know the roots of that particualr style of pa kua?

what style was liu demoing? he didnt seem to be coiled at all and his circle was all over the place...is that what the form was supposed to be like? it looked almost snake like but i havent seen snake pa kua so i cant tell for sure

the jiang style pa kua was ok..his circle was more an oval.


maybe we do learn pa kua wrong. we do our pa kua in exact circles (or try to anyways lol) certainly we contain our stepping better than what those clips showed

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=lunghushan;705350]I've been to taiji schools. Yang Family taiji headquarters is in my town. I've been to xingyi schools. I've been to bagua schools. I've been to Hung Gar schools.

I don't need to go to Shaolin-Do.

I barely got out of Temple Kung-Fu alive. I don't want to go through that debacle again.[/QUO

Seems nobody can please you:confused: ...we're not asking you to come to Shaolin Do....just responding to your slams of something you really know nothing of.....we're only offering to show you the real thing in person....which from what I see above wouldn't matter anyway.

If your ever in Lexington stop by the SD school and I'll show you all the Tai Chi ( Yang or Chen ) Baqua, And Hsing I you want to see....I'm not just talking forms, we can push hands incorporating point strikes, chin na and sweeps.....discuss applications, the classic's , silk reeling, fa jing, proper biomechanics for power generation and to prevent stinging knees & joint damage when doing postures and a whole lot more......you can even join in the class......plus I promise you that you will leave alive.

[lunghushan]

Seems nobody can please you:confused: ...we're not asking you to come to Shaolin Do....just responding to your slams of something you really know nothing of.....we're only offering to show you the real thing in person....which from what I see above wouldn't matter anyway.

If your ever in Lexington stop by the SD school and I'll show you all the Tai Chi ( Yang or Chen ) Baqua, And Hsing I you want to see....I'm not just talking forms, we can push hands incorporating point strikes, chin na and sweeps.....discuss applications, the classic's , silk reeling, fa jing, proper biomechanics for power generation and to prevent stinging knees & joint damage when doing postures and a whole lot more......you can even join in the class......plus I promise you that you will leave alive.

Lexington ... Kentucky? I don't think I will ever be in Kentucky.

Well if you know everything, then fine ... I'm not trying to slam you, I just don't believe it's humanly possible. I'm not going to go to Kentucky to find out, though. :)

Bottom line is ... I don't believe it ... if it makes you feel better I'll go visit Sarah's school in Seattle. But I'm not expecting anything better than USSD.

[Citong Shifu]

[QUOTE=lunghushan;705350]I've been to taiji schools. Yang Family taiji headquarters is in my town. I've been to xingyi schools. I've been to bagua schools. I've been to Hung Gar schools.

I don't need to go to Shaolin-Do.

I barely got out of Temple Kung-Fu alive. I don't want to go through that debacle again.[/QUO

Seems nobody can please you:confused: ...we're not asking you to come to Shaolin Do....just responding to your slams of something you really know nothing of.....we're only offering to show you the real thing in person....which from what I see above wouldn't matter anyway.

If your ever in Lexington stop by the SD school and I'll show you all the Tai Chi ( Yang or Chen ) Baqua, And Hsing I you want to see....I'm not just talking forms, we can push hands incorporating point strikes, chin na and sweeps.....discuss applications, the classic's , silk reeling, fa jing, proper biomechanics for power generation and to prevent stinging knees & joint damage when doing postures and a whole lot more......you can even join in the class......plus I promise you that you will leave alive.


Does Temple Kung Fu have a website????

[Baqualin]

Lexington ... Kentucky? I don't think I will ever be in Kentucky.

Well if you know everything, then fine ... I'm not trying to slam you, I just don't believe it's humanly possible. I'm not going to go to Kentucky to find out, though. :)

Bottom line is ... I don't believe it ... if it makes you feel better I'll go visit Sarah's school in Seattle. But I'm not expecting anything better than USSD.

I never said I know everything and no one that I know in SD is claiming to master everything, I only study the internal side of SD now and wanted you to see that SD is lush with very knowledgeable and varied martial artist with a lot of choices on the direction of study........SD is not for everybody and we have our politic's, but we're not a franchise school...every school is different and this can also be a problem when there's no standardization in training methods, so there's bad SD schools out there, but the majority are very good...there's more to us than you realize.

I watched your video list...the cheng man ching form is our 64 form we just do it slower in a very meditative way and with lower postures ( I'm sure he did too when he was younger).
Cheng was one of the last great tai chi masters...his chi level was very high.

The Jiang Baqua form is our entry level form...he only did one side of the sections shown- I posted the lineage for this in an earlier post. He has very nice form

The Dai Hsing I, I didn't like at all I agree with kung fu junky.....that much weight foward is asking for trouble.

the other Hsingi clips were really good...very close to what we do....I really liked Beng Quan - Wood

Adam Hsu always awesome

Once again I'm not trying to win you over to SD....we're just really good people and would rather share than throw s^^*%& at each other. Look around the threads we like to dicuss and learn not slam styles. we get enough of that on us.:)

[Green Cloud]

WTF is a Citong Sifu or Citung Shaolin???

[lunghushan]

Does Temple Kung Fu have a website????

Something happened with Temple Kung Fu around here. They split into a bunch of other schools.

You won't get anything off their website.

http://www.kungfutemple.com/

Basically I went there and for some reason joined even though it was some sort of contract. I think I signed up for 3 months -- I can't remember. They had only private lessons. They assigned me a younger guy as a teacher (which I didn't expect), and had me do basic stance work.

It seemed a waste of time, and there was no partner work at all, no drills, no forms, nothing, so I complained that they had none of those things and it wasn't good workout.

So next class he had me do everything lower. Basically thighs parallel to the ground. I explained I wanted some sort of aerobic workout or at least form work.

So next class he had me do some sort of taiji thing. He said it was very advanced. I have no idea.

Anyway, so I found some legal loophole in the contract. I can't remember what, and quit.

They hounded me, called me for weeks, so I called them back finally and had it out with them, and they still called me for weeks. That's what I mean by barely making it out alive. LOL

It could be something good -- I have no idea. It was just way too boring.

[lunghushan]

I watched your video list...the cheng man ching form is our 64 form we just do it slower in a very meditative way and with lower postures ( I'm sure he did too when he was younger).

Cheng was one of the last great tai chi masters...his chi level was very high.

The Jiang Baqua form is our entry level form...he only did one side of the sections shown- I posted the lineage for this in an earlier post. He has very nice form

The Dai Hsing I, I didn't like at all I agree with kung fu junky.....that much weight foward is asking for trouble.

the other Hsingi clips were really good...very close to what we do....I really liked Beng Quan - Wood

Adam Hsu always awesome

Once again I'm not trying to win you over to SD....we're just really good people and would rather share than throw s^^*%& at each other. Look around the threads we like to dicuss and learn not slam styles. we get enough of that on us.:)

Yeah, Dai Xingyi is pretty weird, I agree.

You know, after this posts, I totally do not believe the Shaolin-Do lineage story at all. What are the chances that Sin The learned all those forms, the same ones, in Indonesia from some hidden Shaolin lineage?

Zero. That's the chances. There's just no way at all. Those are not Shaolin forms at all. None of them.

Anyway, I won't judge your school, but I don't buy the story at all. There's just no way.

[kungfujunky]

and your basis for this assumption?

because you may not be able to learn that amount of material does not mean someone else couldnt.

i have posted about this before.

gmt knows this material. and knows it well. he did not learn this stuff from a book. his ability to teach it and answer questions about any little part basically shoots down the whole book theory people throw out there.

he did learn this material.

at worst i think ie chang ming may not have been 100% forthright about where he got the material from but it is cma and it is real.

[BM2]

Its funny because, I've been subject of, part of, or the actual person in 4 of the bigger rumors on this entire combined thread.


Originally Posted by lunghushan
What, are you saying you're the hairy guy in the photo?

[lunghushan]

and your basis for this assumption?

because you may not be able to learn that amount of material does not mean someone else couldnt.

i have posted about this before.

gmt knows this material. and knows it well. he did not learn this stuff from a book. his ability to teach it and answer questions about any little part basically shoots down the whole book theory people throw out there.

he did learn this material.

at worst i think ie chang ming may not have been 100% forthright about where he got the material from but it is cma and it is real.

Those are NOT Shaolin forms. You don't find it a little convenient that the Yang Taiji, from CMC, who MODIFIED the form and created his OWN version is the same version that you guys teach? That your form is the same as Jiang bagua? That's not Shaolin. Nothing on that list is Shaolin.

Anyway ... whatever. I'm not saying what you do is bad -- I have no idea. But I'm not buying the story of Sin The learning all of that in Indonesia as a Shaolin lineage. That's all.

[Golden Tiger]

If Shaolin-Do people are having fun at what they do and they like it, then who are we to criticize them?

Uhhhh....then why do you continue to?:rolleyes:

Anyways, whatever. I won't waste any more time on this. If what you do works for you, then whatever.

Uhhhh...thats the second time you have said that. And yet..:rolleyes: You lack mental discipline grasshopper.:D

I've been to taiji schools. Yang Family taiji headquarters is in my town. I've been to xingyi schools. I've been to bagua schools. I've been to Hung Gar schools.


I think we should be training with you. You seem to have studied it all.

Sorry Lung, I am just in a playful mood this morning and you seem to provide a wealth of quotes.

[Golden Tiger]

Bagua:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icwEuTHsDKM

Very interesting. This is the first time I have seen the Classical form done by someone outside of SD. As was stated already, we do the form a tad different (same circle on both sides,level 1 training anyway, uniform number of steps between each circle, more defined movements) but other than that, I see very little difference.

Interesting indeed.

[Judge Pen]

Judge Pen, saw your Quan Do form on video. Congratulations. You did a nice job with a very difficult weapon. I used to practice that form with a homemade weapon made by an assistant instructor with a torch. It must have weighed forty pounds. I don't regret practicing that form. It makes you strong. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

But do you really think you could fight with that weapon based on that form? It seems to me a relevant question to this discussion.

It's a very relevant question (one that goes to the heart of TMA practice with traditional weapons). Now it's not like I would have a kwan dao laying around if I'm mugged nor do I expect to be in a live action recreation of Dynasty Warriors any-time soon, but yes I think I can take the techniques out of Kwan Dao and apply them.

Ideally, practing the Kwan Dao form builds strength and dexterity. It also teaches you to use the momentum of a larger weapon to keep flowing with it (you may or may not see that from my performance). Any long item that is heavier on one end could be used that way. Thus, the basic cuts and changes of direction could be applied in "real" situation.

The problem is no one practices weapon sparring to any degree. Not with spear, chani-whips, Kwand daos etc. You get some sword play, staff and short stick play, knife play, but these larger battlefield weapons are left to aestic forms and the occassional two-man set or contrived "fight routine" in most TMA training.

[Radhnoti]

If you look around, just a little, you'll be amazed at how many kuntao schools claim historic links to Shaolin.

I'd agree with whoever said shaolin-do is unlike today's kung-fu. I'd also agree with whoever said SD is shaolin that was changed as it passed through Indonesia, I'd also add that it was changed in the U.S. Keep in mind, a lot of shaolin-do higher ups I've heard talking about "respected" kung-fu call it "competition wushu", "flowery and pointless movement" or "communist chinese influenced". SD (and many kuntao styles) feel the kungfu that migrated to Indo-China kept the martial intent that was lost to styles physically closer to China's cultural revolution.

[Baqualin]

Those are NOT Shaolin forms. You don't find it a little convenient that the Yang Taiji, from CMC, who MODIFIED the form and created his OWN version is the same version that you guys teach? That your form is the same as Jiang bagua? That's not Shaolin. Nothing on that list is Shaolin.

Anyway ... whatever. I'm not saying what you do is bad -- I have no idea. But I'm not buying the story of Sin The learning all of that in Indonesia as a Shaolin lineage. That's all.

OK...no one is claiming that the Bagua...Tai Chi....Hsing I are Shaolin forms...Shaolin was and is the library of Alexandria of martial arts.....there were forms developed in the temple and outside of the temple.....I recently saw a youtube of the modern monks doing their Tai Chi....it was chen and it was obvious
AS far as the Cheng form I had a Chinese girl friend who for a few years lived in Taiwan and her boy friend was an older man who is a Tai Chi master.... he taught her the cheng form and called it 64 like we do....she also studied with a lady who was also a Tai Chi master and learned our sword form move for move. the point I making is that Cheng ( according to history) did his changes over here not in China and they called the form 64 Tai Chi in Taiwan not the Cheng form.....so the history there also has holes in it. It is also well known in our history that GMIe picked up other forms in his travels thru China and from his colleagues in Indonesia. It wasn't just GSM and GMIe, our forms came from a whole group of Chinese Martial artist's who were part of the same school, Ie was just the Grand Master who some are still living. Just recently a student of GMS's went to Indonesia with him, meet and filmed one of his colleague's....she believes! All true Masters have learned from more than one person. That's why it's Shaolin Do...the way of the Shaolin. We have a wealth of real Chinese forms and systems.....it's up to each student where we head with it and some of us do pretty well. We have nothing to hide come see us. It's nice to be able to trace the lineage of our forms....it makes them more real.;) Peace

[tattooedmonk]

I disagree. Hung gar's tiger/crane is not soft. The SD version does not look like a variation. It looks like the person does not fully understand it.

With kung fu, it doesn't matter if it works or not. I know that sounds crazy, but it is true. There is a lot of bad kung fu. What I mean by bad is that I feel that style is useless. However, it is kung fu. My opinion is that a lot kung fu styles don't work. SD may or may not work, but just because it works well does not make it kung fu.

Long ago, SD might of had a Chinese base (I strongly doubt it). HOWEVER, it is not kung fu nowI believe that tiger crane is a hard style ..but most of the people I have seen do not do it that way...it was just a comparison to Sd.

Kung fu just means time and effort or hard work...it is misused to describe chinese arts

[BlueTravesty]

If you look around, just a little, you'll be amazed at how many kuntao schools claim historic links to Shaolin.

I'd agree with whoever said shaolin-do is unlike today's kung-fu. I'd also agree with whoever said SD is shaolin that was changed as it passed through Indonesia, I'd also add that it was changed in the U.S. Keep in mind, a lot of shaolin-do higher ups I've heard talking about "respected" kung-fu call it "competition wushu", "flowery and pointless movement" or "communist chinese influenced". SD (and many kuntao styles) feel the kungfu that migrated to Indo-China kept the martial intent that was lost to styles physically closer to China's cultural revolution.

Really? I think the biggest impact that CMA have suffered- as far as intent goes anyway- was probably when foreigners started carving China up into "Spheres of Influence." In confrontations against the guns of the Europeans (particularly during the Boxer Rebellion) many a martial artist discovered that no technique can make one bulletproof (in the case of the Yi Ho Chuan, they learned that the hard way.) Needless to say, this happened a LONG time before the cultural revolution.

As I've pointed out before, a LOT if not most Kung Fu lineages go back to Taiwan (mostly Long Fist, Praying Mantis, Baji, Pigua, Taiji, Bagua, etc.) or Hong Kong (Hung Gar, Wing Chun, more Praying Mantis, MyJhong:D, etc.) Taiwan has little-to-nothing to do with Modern Wushu, as the old wounds are still too deep. Hong Kong's participation in Modern Wushu is VERY recent, as Hong Kong only got a team together a few years ago. The only non-Wushu lineages I've heard of coming to America directly from the mainland was one particular Choy Lee Fut branch I read about, though I can't remember the name of it. However, anyone who has seen CLF will see more similarities to San Shou than Modern Wushu ;) So like Kuntao, claims to these systems being Wushu-influenced can only come from the occasional practitioner of them who might also dabble in Wushu.

[godzillakungfu]

Originally Posted by lunghushan
What, are you saying you're the hairy guy in the photo?
I like how you found the two quotes but, missed my response.

[godzillakungfu]

Very interesting. This is the first time I have seen the Classical form done by someone outside of SD. As was stated already, we do the form a tad different (same circle on both sides,level 1 training anyway, uniform number of steps between each circle, more defined movements) but other than that, I see very little difference.

Interesting indeed.

Wow, this gentleman is very interesting. I'm surprised you haven't researched him GT. We have a few forms that are very close to his in Hsing-I and Bagua.

[Radhnoti]

BT, I was just giving my impression of what SDers think of a lot of kungfu. In SD a GREAT DEAL of weight is given to the expected effectiveness of what's being taught. (If you'll forgive me, I'll repeat my mantra for this thread here: Like in a LOT of kuntao schools.) I suspect shaolin-do DID change in Indonesia and perhaps as much in the U.S. It's my opinion that it's not kungfu...after all, the styles you mentioned have ended up defining that word and SD isn't any of those. It IS my opinion that SD is historically linked to shaolin...
I don't think SDers get upset about people not believing SD is kungfu, I think they get upset when people assume they have no legit link to China. GM The's family is CHINESE and Chinese people who lived in Indonesia stuck with the OTHER Chinese immigrants in small communities. It's silly for people to assume he learned karate when it's relatively certain he'd have had access to people with Chinese martial art backgrounds.

[tattooedmonk]

all this talk about mastering the art is rediculous...Shaolin is about mastering the self...

what is the definiton of what is kung fu and not kung fu??

Hey the xia...where are your videos of you doing some 'KUNGFU""??

[tattooedmonk]

It is unfortunate that SD purports, or maybe purported, itself to be a type of karate, for marketing purposes because at some time karate was the thing to do in the US. In the seventies, Kung Fu became the buzzword. It's interesting that SD didn't latch onto that. Ultimately the disappointment is that SD didn't just market itself and not latch onto what was big at the time. But perhaps the ultimate disapointment is that someone marketed himself as the grandmaster of all the shaolin styles, the animals, ba gau, tai ji, hsing i, the weapons, etc, when such is obviously impossible.
actually it has been called karate for many years..Master sin just calls it shaolin do..it is more than just martial arts...karate use to mean China hand...I wonder why.

Grandmaster is the title given as the holder of the system..it would be impossible for anyone to master 900+ forms or 50+ styles..

Master Sin said he has been practicing Chen Tai Ji Quan for over 35 years and still has yet to master it...

martialarts / shaolin is not about mastering forms, techniques, or systems it is about mastering the self

[tattooedmonk]

Ok, then maybe you can offer an explanation why it's performed like Karate.



So why does it look so similar to anyone with any MA training? You guys seem to see something that nobody outside your group seems to see. And why is it such an insult to you guys to be compared to Karate?



That's not hard to admit, I haven't seen it all and I don't know everything. The thing is I never made either of those claims so why did you bother to say that?it is influenced by karate remember the lineage/history ..would it not stand to reason that to hide the art it would also have to look like karate and not"' kungfu"??

actually karate is a respectable art no one that really does the art cares what is called beyond Shaolin Do ..it is karate it is kung fu it is chuan fa it is also none of these

[tattooedmonk]

What Is Your Definiton Of What Shaolin Is And Is Not ??
What Is Your Definition Of What Kung Fu Is Or Is Not??
What Is Your Definition Of What Is Right And What Is Wrong??
Why Is It ABOUT SD THAT Brings Out The B*tch In All Other Martial Artist??
Why Does Anyone Out Side Of Sd Care What We Do??
Whyis It That You All Whine So Much About Total Bullsh**?

For All You Doubters...stfu!!

[lunghushan]

Uhhhh....then why do you continue to?:rolleyes:

Uhhhh...thats the second time you have said that. And yet..:rolleyes: You lack mental discipline grasshopper.:D

I think we should be training with you. You seem to have studied it all.

Sorry Lung, I am just in a playful mood this morning and you seem to provide a wealth of quotes.

I didn't say I studied at all those places. I have been to them. I didn't study at all of them.

[lunghushan]

That's why it's Shaolin Do...the way of the Shaolin. We have a wealth of real Chinese forms and systems.....it's up to each student where we head with it and some of us do pretty well. We have nothing to hide come see us. It's nice to be able to trace the lineage of our forms....it makes them more real.;) Peace

Okay, well as long as you don't expect people to believe the story of your GM being a master of 50+ martial arts and 900 forms, and a master of Shaolin, I don't have a problem with your schools.

Your schools obviously teach a bunch of classical martial arts forms, but please just don't expect anybody to buy the story because it makes no sense.

[ricardocameron]

it is influenced by karate remember the lineage/history ..would it not stand to reason that to hide the art it would also have to look like karate and not"' kungfu"??

actually karate is a respectable art no one that really does the art cares what is called beyond Shaolin Do ..it is karate it is kung fu it is chuan fa it is also none of these

"KARA"(China) + " TE"(Hand)= What? "Kara" was changed by Funakoshi to mean "Empty" Same Japanese pronunciation, different written character...Comprende?
Then the Japanese put their twisted little minds to the CMA..;)

Same Bat art, different Bat name! :D

[The Willow Sword]

What Is Your Definiton Of What Shaolin Is And Is Not ??

Shaolin IS the TCMA taught and practiced at the Shaolin temple(either several hundred years ago or today whether you call it wushu or whatever classification i give creedence to what comes from the Temple. What Shaolin is NOT is SD. Plain and simple.

What Is Your Definition Of What Kung Fu Is Or Is Not?? i think the kfm definition is right on.

In general, Kung Fu is a label used to describe any Martial Art that comes from China. It is the generic name for literally hundreds of individual Chinese fighting arts, both "internal" and "external," ancient and of relatively recent invention.

what kung fu is NOT is SD. Plain and simple.

What Is Your Definition Of What Is Right And What Is Wrong??

What is right is when people represent themselves honestly without having to spout and tout alot of BS and make outlandish claims.
What is wrong is when you misrepresent who you are and what you profess to teach and WHERE you get your material from.

Why Is It ABOUT SD THAT Brings Out The B*tch In All Other Martial Artist??

What is it about Logic ,reason, and reality that brings out the b!tch in the SD'ers and the constant need to justify themselves to everyone around them? hmmmm?

Why Does Anyone Out Side Of Sd Care What We Do??

Because alot of us who actually TRAIN in a TCMA and have a legitamate background and lineage are sick and Fukin tired of you guys constantly riding the coattail of the TCMA realm and to be quite frank B@STARDIZING TCMA and calling it the true shaolin way or art. you get no respect from the TCMA community as a whole. Think about that for a moment. you spend most of your time trying to justify what you do and how you do it and its no wonder you get laughed at by every other TCMA out there and its no wonder when you go to china and get all this grand treatment(because you are tourists with money) and then when you leave they roll their eyes and continue on with their daily routines.

Whyis It That You All Whine So Much About Total Bullsh**?

Why is it that all you Sd'ers whine to US about YOUR BS? Here on this forum?

[Baqualin]

Wow, this gentleman is very interesting. I'm surprised you haven't researched him GT. We have a few forms that are very close to his in Hsing-I and Bagua.

FYI...our Classical Baqua The First Baqua form taught in SD can be traced back to Chiang Jung-Ch'iao a student of Chang Chao-Tung, who was a direct student of Tung Hai-Ch'uan

It's a common form in the Baqua world not far removed from Tung Hai-Ch'uan as you see...they just spelled his name Jiang instead of Chiang. The gentleman doing it on the video is not Chiang...he's dead.

You can get a video of this form from Dr. Jerry Allen Johnson a Baqua Master in Monteray Calif.
he also teaches it with applications.

From what I've researched we have a little more to go along with it in the 64 rules, fighting technique's and circle training (circle mixing):)

[Baqualin]

What Is Your Definiton Of What Shaolin Is And Is Not ??

Shaolin IS the TCMA taught and practiced at the Shaolin temple(either several hundred years ago or today whether you call it wushu or whatever classification i give creedence to what comes from the Temple. What Shaolin is NOT is SD. Plain and simple.

What Is Your Definition Of What Kung Fu Is Or Is Not?? i think the kfm definition is right on.

In general, Kung Fu is a label used to describe any Martial Art that comes from China. It is the generic name for literally hundreds of individual Chinese fighting arts, both "internal" and "external," ancient and of relatively recent invention.

what kung fu is NOT is SD. Plain and simple.

What Is Your Definition Of What Is Right And What Is Wrong??

What is right is when people represent themselves honestly without having to spout and tout alot of BS and make outlandish claims.
What is wrong is when you misrepresent who you are and what you profess to teach and WHERE you get your material from.

Why Is It ABOUT SD THAT Brings Out The B*tch In All Other Martial Artist??

What is it about Logic ,reason, and reality that brings out the b!tch in the SD'ers and the constant need to justify themselves to everyone around them? hmmmm?

Why Does Anyone Out Side Of Sd Care What We Do??

Because alot of us who actually TRAIN in a TCMA and have a legitamate background and lineage are sick and Fukin tired of you guys constantly riding the coattail of the TCMA realm and to be quite frank B@STARDIZING TCMA and calling it the true shaolin way or art. you get no respect from the TCMA community as a whole. Think about that for a moment. you spend most of your time trying to justify what you do and how you do it and its no wonder you get laughed at by every other TCMA out there and its no wonder when you go to china and get all this grand treatment(because you are tourists with money) and then when you leave they roll their eyes and continue on with their daily routines.

Whyis It That You All Whine So Much About Total Bullsh**?

Why is it that all you Sd'ers whine to US about YOUR BS? Here on this forum?

I wondered were you've been:D

[Golden Tiger]

Because alot of us who actually TRAIN in a TCMA and have a legitamate background and lineage are sick and Fukin tired of you guys constantly riding the coattail of the TCMA realm

Speaking of coat tails, you do know that you have made a name for yourself on the SD coat tails don't you WS? Mention your name in other threads, what do you get? "Oh, he is the one from SD that got his a$$ handed to him cause his mouth wrote checks his butt couldn't cash" or "yeah, he is the crazy guy that went from loving it to hating it, sorta like a grade school crush".

So lil one, you owe SD everything for making you famous. Now go drink some more Kool aide and restart Final Fantasy. what a tool:rolleyes:

[Golden Tiger]

Wow, this gentleman is very interesting. I'm surprised you haven't researched him GT. We have a few forms that are very close to his in Hsing-I and Bagua.

Yeah, I don't get out much.:o

[godzillakungfu]

Yeah, I don't get out much.:o
Thank you for understanding what I meant.

BQ stop.

FYI nothing. I have already stated I did SD West. I know the history, I know the debates, I know the misspellings, I know the politics. Not so much on the East but, much on the west.



Yes, I have seen the JRJ videos they are a source of debate in some circles regarding SD(again this is coming from the West).

If you read GT's post you would understand my post.

Originally Posted by Golden Tiger View Post
Very interesting. This is the first time I have seen the Classical form done by someone outside of SD. As was stated already, we do the form a tad different (same circle on both sides,level 1 training anyway, uniform number of steps between each circle, more defined movements) but other than that, I see very little difference.

Interesting indeed.

Our postures are similar to JRJ but it is rare to watch someone do SD stepping patterns. JRJ doesn't do the circle walking while doing the postures like SD. That is what I was responding to in GT's post.


It is interesting to find something, recently produced, outside of American influence, that resembles SD forms and patterns.

[tattooedmonk]

What Is Your Definiton Of What Shaolin Is And Is Not ??

Shaolin IS the TCMA taught and practiced at the Shaolin temple(either several hundred years ago or today whether you call it wushu or whatever classification i give creedence to what comes from the Temple. What Shaolin is NOT is SD. Plain and simple.

What Is Your Definition Of What Kung Fu Is Or Is Not?? i think the kfm definition is right on.

In general, Kung Fu is a label used to describe any Martial Art that comes from China. It is the generic name for literally hundreds of individual Chinese fighting arts, both "internal" and "external," ancient and of relatively recent invention.

what kung fu is NOT is SD. Plain and simple.

What Is Your Definition Of What Is Right And What Is Wrong??

What is right is when people represent themselves honestly without having to spout and tout alot of BS and make outlandish claims.
What is wrong is when you misrepresent who you are and what you profess to teach and WHERE you get your material from.

Why Is It ABOUT SD THAT Brings Out The B*tch In All Other Martial Artist??

What is it about Logic ,reason, and reality that brings out the b!tch in the SD'ers and the constant need to justify themselves to everyone around them? hmmmm?

Why Does Anyone Out Side Of Sd Care What We Do??

Because alot of us who actually TRAIN in a TCMA and have a legitamate background and lineage are sick and Fukin tired of you guys constantly riding the coattail of the TCMA realm and to be quite frank B@STARDIZING TCMA and calling it the true shaolin way or art. you get no respect from the TCMA community as a whole. Think about that for a moment. you spend most of your time trying to justify what you do and how you do it and its no wonder you get laughed at by every other TCMA out there and its no wonder when you go to china and get all this grand treatment(because you are tourists with money) and then when you leave they roll their eyes and continue on with their daily routines.

Whyis It That You All Whine So Much About Total Bullsh**?

Why is it that all you Sd'ers whine to US about YOUR BS? Here on this forum?#1) the forms & art come from the shaolin temples directly or indirectly.... so how can it not be shaolin if this is what your definiton of shaolin is??...by the way your definition is inaccurate.

#2) Shaolin Do is not kungfu or karate it is both and it is neither...some call it karate some call it kung fu..most just call it a Shaolin Do!!

..once again you have given a generic definiton that anyone who reads any book about chinese martial arts could come up with...for someone with so much experience and so many opinions and criticisms I would expect more...inaccurate again. think outside the box...

#3) right and wrong are a matter of perception ..truth is absolute... and how do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that what is claimed by Sd is not accurate and true..or right???

#4)answering a question with a question..just what I expect from a B*TCH!!

#5)LMAO..dude whatever....I doubt you know what real chinese martial arts is....unless it hit you in the face!! which can be arranged!!

#6)once again see#4......GT is right you are tool!!

[Golden Tiger]

BQ stop.

FYI nothing.

I can't really speak for him but I don't think that his FYI and such was directed at you GKFu, but more a reply of what you said directed to the thread. He is a decent fellow or so I hear.


Hey BM2!!! coming to the "gathering" and seminar this weekend?

[Baqualin]

Thank you for understanding what I meant.

BQ stop.

FYI nothing. I have already stated I did SD West. I know the history, I know the debates, I know the misspellings, I know the politics. Not so much on the East but, much on the west.



Yes, I have seen the JRJ videos they are a source of debate in some circles regarding SD(again this is coming from the West).

If you read GT's post you would understand my post.



Our postures are similar to JRJ but it is rare to watch someone do SD stepping patterns. JRJ doesn't do the circle walking while doing the postures like SD. That is what I was responding to in GT's post.


It is interesting to find something, recently produced, outside of American influence, that resembles SD forms and patterns.

Got it and I agree...JRJ is just one of the ones with our form that I ran across in my Baqua research....I had conversation with him a few times and he seemed pretty ****y.
I also heard some of his students attended one of our sparing clinic's in Calif. and didn't fair to well:)

By the way, other than an occasional mention I stay out of the politic's, east or west, it turns my stomach;)

[Judge Pen]

I have a book of JRJ's pa Kua that discusses the postures, diagrams them, and lays them out just like SD does them. Including the walk in a tighter, more defined circle and repeating each palm change on the right and left side. Interesting.

[Baqualin]

I can't really speak for him but I don't think that his FYI and such was directed at you GKFu, but more a reply of what you said directed to the thread. He is a decent fellow or so I hear.


Hey BM2!!! coming to the "gathering" and seminar this weekend?

You are correct....I look at GKFu as a SD brother east or west.

[lunghushan]

I would say something about JAJ's bagua and his books, but it isn't fit for a forum.

Let's just say that given your form and stuff is exactly the same as his leads to a high probability that it was copied from a book.

[Judge Pen]

I would say something about JRJ's bagua and his books, but it isn't fit for a forum.

Let's just say that given your form and stuff is exactly the same as his leads to a high probability that it was copied from a book.


High probabability? Man you should have taken evidence with me; speculation without proof is a big no-no. We can sepculate about things until the cows come home (or Royal Dragon finds him a Russian bride).

[lunghushan]

High probabability? Man you should have taken evidence with me; speculation without proof is a big no-no. We can sepculate about things until the cows come home (or Royal Dragon finds him a Russian bride).

Well, this might get me in trouble, but Joseph Crandall (who is a very nice guy), translated a ton of Chinese books. He is a good friend of JAJ.

They have a book with a lot of different systems forms. I mentioned the book to a teacher from China and showed it to him, and he said that the versions of his systems forms are an exact copy of his teacher's book. The forms in the book were simplified for public consumption, and aren't the versions that anybody actually taught.

More I dare not say. Let's just say that now I really think my original hypothesis was correct.

[lunghushan]

The thing you have to understand about Chinese forms, especially baguazhang, is that masters change the forms.

They don't usually keep it the same. They sometimes forget things, or they sometimes add things in, or mix it up. Baguazhang supposedly has a big tradition of this. A lot of teachers will also 'mark' their form. Meaning they change some moves so they can tell who is teaching the form out to other people, if they see it.

So if your form is almost exactly the same as somebody else's form, or exactly the same, then it must mean you had the same teacher. Either that, or it must mean that they copied it out of a book of that teacher, or both people copied it out of a book. Or they corrected it with the version in the book.

So I'd say it's a very high probability if your form is the same as JAJ's form, that it was either learned from the same teacher, or copied out of a book. Given that this is supposed to come from Indonesia, the highest probability seems to be that it was copied out of a book.

This particular form we're talking about, though, is a very common form, so it's possible it wasn't copied.

[godzillakungfu]

By the way, other than an occasional mention I stay out of the politic's, east or west, it turns my stomach;)Yeah, that is one of the reasons why I stopped teaching. Or according to rumors.....................:D

[godzillakungfu]

The thing you have to understand about Chinese forms, especially baguazhang, is that masters change the forms.

They don't usually keep it the same. They sometimes forget things, or they sometimes add things in, or mix it up. Baguazhang supposedly has a big tradition of this. A lot of teachers will also 'mark' their form. Meaning they change some moves so they can tell who is teaching the form out to other people, if they see it.

So if your form is almost exactly the same as somebody else's form, or exactly the same, then it must mean you had the same teacher. Either that, or it must mean that they copied it out of a book of that teacher, or both people copied it out of a book. Or they corrected it with the version in the book.

So I'd say it's a very high probability if your form is the same as JAJ's form, that it was either learned from the same teacher, or copied out of a book. Given that this is supposed to come from Indonesia, the highest probability seems to be that it was copied out of a book.Did you purposely miss what GT and I said?

Read what JP said again. JAJ and many other books say the same thing so the tighter circles, the palm changes are universal. Now, I'm not saying we do it right or wrong.

If the forms look exactly the same, which no one said, it is copied from someone else.

If it is completely different it is fake.

[Baqualin]

Well, this might get me in trouble, but Joseph Crandall (who is a very nice guy), translated a ton of Chinese books. He is a good friend of JAJ.

They have a book with a lot of different systems forms. I mentioned the book to a teacher from China and showed it to him, and he said that the versions of his systems forms are an exact copy of his teacher's book. The forms in the book were simplified for public consumption, and aren't the versions that anybody actually taught.

More I dare not say. Let's just say that now I really think my original hypothesis was correct.

OK your jumping to conclusions....GSM taught out the ONE Baqua form we're discussing way before JAJ book was published....IT IS A COMMON Baqua form...your teacher learn it from a Teacher and the Teacher who's book you mention learned it from a Teacher....it is not his form it's Chiang Jung-Ch'iao's form.

I also stated what we have is much more complete.

Joseph Crandall is a nice guy and their book is only to show the history and diversity of Pa Kua and it's weapons...... not to teach the forms.

Their book only has one of our Baqua forms.....Do you realize how many Baqua forms are out there.

Your also dealing with a country with such a diverse dialect that half the country can't even communicate with each other.

The Chinese girl friend I had, new a lot about Tai Chi and Meditation.....but had no idea what Baqua and Hsing I were until she meet me.

[lunghushan]

Did you purposely miss what GT and I said?

Read what JP said again. JAJ and many other books say the same thing so the tighter circles, the palm changes are universal. Now, I'm not saying we do it right or wrong.

If the forms look exactly the same, which no one said, it is copied from someone else.

If it is completely different it is fake.

Well it just seems interesting that all your stuff is standard is all. Meaning it is all standard forms easily found in history or in book.

Except maybe the 'golden leopard' or whatever. I don't know about that. I'm not Chinese, but from what little Chinese sources I do have access to, there are evidently a TON of Chinese resources I don't have access to.

If you had something like Bak Mei forms or some closed door system forms, it would actually lend some credence to your claims.

Or if your stuff was more fragmented like the Kun Tao from De Thouars, it would make a lot more sense.

But since all your stuff appears to be standard, and the same as published works, and you even have CMC's form which was designed by him in Taiwan, it really detracts from your story.

Bottom line is, I don't believe your story. Not that it matters, really. :)

[Judge Pen]

So I'd say it's a very high probability if your form is the same as JAJ's form, that it was either learned from the same teacher, or copied out of a book. Given that this is supposed to come from Indonesia, the highest probability seems to be that it was copied out of a book.

This particular form we're talking about, though, is a very common form, so it's possible it wasn't copied.


It is a very common form. It is just as probable that one of the collegues in Indonesia (maybe even GM Ie) learned the form prior to Indonesia and then taught it based upon his understanding. If it's that common, then why couldn't that be so?

Again, two theories that are possible, but no real proof to support either one.

[godzillakungfu]

Well it just seems interesting that all your stuff is standard is all. Meaning it is all standard forms easily found in history or in book.

Except maybe the 'golden leopard' or whatever. I don't know about that. I'm not Chinese, but from what little Chinese sources I do have access to, there are evidently a TON of Chinese resources I don't have access to.

If you had something like Bak Mei forms or some closed door system forms, it would actually lend some credence to your claims.

Or if your stuff was more fragmented like the Kun Tao from De Thouars, it would make a lot more sense.

But since all your stuff appears to be standard, and the same as published works, and you even have CMC's form which was designed by him in Taiwan, it really detracts from your story.

Bottom line is, I don't believe your story. Not that it matters, really. :)Please tell me what is standard.

The biggest arguments I have seen in this thread, from the beginning, is the lack of verifiable forms.

So far there are only 5 or 6 things from books.

Now you are saying 5 out of the 900+ forms make the whole thing standard.

Strange use of logic.

Now, don't get me started on the 900+ forms.

Oh, it isn't my story anymore. I'm attacking the arguments not your stance.

[lunghushan]

It is a very common form. It is just as probable that one of the collegues in Indonesia (maybe even GM Ie) learned the form prior to Indonesia and then taught it based upon his understanding. If it's that common, then why couldn't that be so?

Again, two theories that are possible, but no real proof to support either one.

Yeah, maybe I spent too long in Manhattan. Going into this conversation I was assuming that you had non-standard forms. I didn't really think about the book connection much.

When you showed the Kwan Do form, it looked like a valid form, but the way it was done wasn't exactly right with the stepping. At that point it seemed more likely that it was learned out of a book, because the way they have forms books layed out, some details are lost. Unicorn step could have been one of those details.

Then, to find out that the rest of the stuff is standard, the same as easily accessed published materials, it lends even more credence to the book claim.

Then, to find out that he teaches CMC's Taiwan form, that just screams out for a book or Taiwan connection.

But yeah, I can't prove that Sin The's master didn't go to Taiwan and China and learn all those forms, somehow the same standard versions that are most famous. I can't prove it at all.

But it really strains the credibility.

[lunghushan]

Please tell me what is standard.

The biggest arguments I have seen in this thread, from the beginning, is the lack of verifiable forms.

So far there are only 5 or 6 things from books.

Now you are saying 5 out of the 900+ forms make the whole thing standard.

Strange use of logic.

Now, don't get me started on the 900+ forms.

Oh, it isn't my story anymore. I'm attacking the arguments not your stance.

That's fine. But on the other thread they listed a bunch of forms, and they all seem standard. I have a number of translated books of forms and materials that I bought on Ryukyu that were translated from Chinese books, and some from other sources.

There are also a lot of books published by Lion's books in Taiwan in Chinese that are mostly reprints of old, classical works, along with some new books by He Jing Han, for example.

This evidently is a very small amount of the number of materials that are available in Chinese bookstores in Chinatowns across the world, and have been historically, since the Republican period, around 1920 or so.

Standard meaning standard names, verifiable names. Without actually seeing your forms, I wouldn't know. I don't even know all those forms anyway. But the fact that BQ verified that the SD versions are the same as those Youtube versions points to that.

[Baqualin]

Yeah, maybe I spent too long in Manhattan. Going into this conversation I was assuming that you had non-standard forms. I didn't really think about the book connection much.

When you showed the Kwan Do form, it looked like a valid form, but the way it was done wasn't exactly right with the stepping. At that point it seemed more likely that it was learned out of a book, because the way they have forms books layed out, some details are lost. Unicorn step could have been one of those details.

Then, to find out that the rest of the stuff is standard, the same as easily accessed published materials, it lends even more credence to the book claim.

Then, to find out that he teaches CMC's Taiwan form, that just screams out for a book or Taiwan connection.

But yeah, I can't prove that Sin The's master didn't go to Taiwan and China and learn all those forms, somehow the same standard versions that are most famous. I can't prove it at all.

But it really strains the credibility.

You keep refering to Cheng's form as his Taiwan form....they don't call it his form there.....at least according to my ex Chinese girl friend.....and by the way I showed her a video of GMS doing 64 and she thought he moved to slow.....that comes from his teacher not a book.

[kungfujunky]

is dragon pa kua standard? is double mulan fans standard? hsing yi staff? pa kua staff?

double daggers? double axes?

drunken? golden leopard?

18 flying daggers? horse hair form? rope dart?

standard to me means the oldest variation of the style. the pa kua form being abused now is considered to be the oldest known version. of the hundreds of known pa kua versions out there the first pa kua we teach is considered the oldest.

[Golden Tiger]

This Lunghushan parody is just that. More silly than not.:D His points of view change constantly and his reasoning appears to be that of a child.

Set them up and we'll knock them down..next!!

[lunghushan]

This Lunghushan parody is just that. More silly than not.:D His points of view change constantly and his reasoning appears to be that of a child.

Set them up and we'll knock them down..next!!

You know, I was being nice. Bottom line is you guys are the biggest suckers ever if you believe this story.

I'm through with this thread. At least now we know where you got your stuff.

[Baqualin]

is dragon pa kua standard? is double mulan fans standard? hsing yi staff? pa kua staff?

double daggers? double axes?

drunken? golden leopard?

18 flying daggers? horse hair form? rope dart?

standard to me means the oldest variation of the style. the pa kua form being abused now is considered to be the oldest known version. of the hundreds of known pa kua versions out there the first pa kua we teach is considered the oldest.

Correct me if I'm wrong...I think the Snake Pakua GSM teaches is the oldest Pakua
form we have....I think it's pre Tung Hai Chuan. And before WS pipes in the're alot of snake Baqua systems out there.

[godzillakungfu]

You know, I was being nice. Bottom line is you guys are the biggest suckers ever if you believe this story.

I'm through with this thread. At least now we know where you got your stuff.
Really, I don't.

[Baqualin]

You know, I was being nice. Bottom line is you guys are the biggest suckers ever if you believe this story.

I'm through with this thread. At least now we know where you got your stuff.

Now that's settled we can move on:cool:

[Baqualin]

This Lunghushan parody is just that. More silly than not.:D His points of view change constantly and his reasoning appears to be that of a child.

Set them up and we'll knock them down..next!!

Well I'm not bored at work anymore:D

[kungfujunky]

Correct me if I'm wrong...I think the Snake Pakua GSM teaches is the oldest Pakua
form we have....I think it's pre Tung Hai Chuan. And before WS pipes in the're alot of snake Baqua systems out there.



hmm i hadnt heard that but you could be right! we havent seen snake yet out west...but its supposed to be shown this year

[Baqualin]

hmm i hadnt heard that but you could be right! we havent seen snake yet out west...but its supposed to be shown this year

You'll love it.....it's strickly for fai jing training and one hell of a work out....it has a lot of kicks and traps all applied with intense fai jing

[Judge Pen]

When you showed the Kwan Do form, it looked like a valid form, but the way it was done wasn't exactly right with the stepping. At that point it seemed more likely that it was learned out of a book, because the way they have forms books layed out, some details are lost. Unicorn step could have been one of those details.

See again, I've never heard the term "unicorn stepping" If it were learned out of a book then wouldn't we call it unicorn stepping, but do it incorrectly? I was taught that the steps were moving over obsticals on the battlefield and have always stepped with that intent. What is the purpose for this "unicorn" step that you keep referring too?

If we were taught to step differently for different reasons, then you can't call my way of stepping incorrect. Just different.

[The Willow Sword]

Originally posted by Golden tiger
Speaking of coat tails, you do know that you have made a name for yourself on the SD coat tails don't you WS? Mention your name in other threads, what do you get? "Oh, he is the one from SD that got his a$$ handed to him cause his mouth wrote checks his butt couldn't cash" or "yeah, he is the crazy guy that went from loving it to hating it, sorta like a grade school crush".

So lil one, you owe SD everything for making you famous. Now go drink some more Kool aide and restart Final Fantasy. what a tool


:rolleyes: for a guy who said he was willing to take me back into the SD fold and hold no grudges you sure dont show it. i apologize if my answer session to TTM questions pi$$ed ya off:D i DO have that effect on people. and its not final fantasy ya dipsh!t its WARCRAFT III. get it right next time:mad:

Originally posted by tattoedmonk
#5)LMAO..dude whatever....I doubt you know what real chinese martial arts is....unless it hit you in the face!! which can be arranged!!

You threatening me you low life peice of sh!t?? If you know who i am and where i am then show up and make your threat in person but DONT presume to make veiled BS threats to ME here on this forum. In fact its not looked too favorably by the moderators here. I have threatened no-one here and if you cant handle what i have to say then put me on ignore. OR make your threats to me in PM.

Sorry Mods, i dont take to threats lightly, just establishing so.

TWS

[kungfujunky]

lol

thats funny

[tattooedmonk]

Originally posted by Golden tiger



:rolleyes: for a guy who said he was willing to take me back into the SD fold and hold no grudges you sure dont show it. i apologize if my answer session to TTM questions pi$$ed ya off:D i DO have that effect on people. and its not final fantasy ya dipsh!t its WARCRAFT III. get it right next time:mad:

Originally posted by tattoedmonk


You threatening me you low life peice of sh!t?? If you know who i am and where i am then show up and make your threat in person but DONT presume to make veiled BS threats to ME here on this forum. In fact its not looked too favorably by the moderators here. I have threatened no-one here and if you cant handle what i have to say then put me on ignore. OR make your threats to me in PM.

Sorry Mods, i dont take to threats lightly, just establishing so.

TWS you took it as a threat??

you feel threatened by a few words on the internet??

you got issues...

do you want some cheese for that whine??

if this is the way you really feel then you would have PM instead of being a b*tch and putting it out here ....

[Golden Tiger]

for a guy who said he was willing to take me back into the SD fold and hold no grudges you sure dont show it. i apologize if my answer session to TTM questions pi$$ed ya off i DO have that effect on people. and its not final fantasy ya dipsh!t its WARCRAFT III. get it right next time


So