Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[The Xia]

The Five Elders story is present in many folk tales and respectable lineages. Yes, there is no concrete proof (as of yet). However, there are many versions of this story in various places. On the other hand, the Su Kong story is only present in Shaolin Do. On top of that, it contradicts the Five Elders story.

And "neil", modern, credible archaeologists take a no B.S. approach to research. They use the finest in scientific equiptment to examine evidence. And respectable martial arts researchers examine evidence as well.

[lunghushan]

Could you please physically describe what you mean I also train in SD and do my Kwan Tao form with a different stepping pattern KC:)

The unicorn step or cross step he's doing there he's not low enough. He's way too high.

I don't know any way to describe it except find somebody good at unicorn step and watch them.

[The Xia]

Here's one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m203c8l6B7w
I remember seeing this on another thread.
****, Who picked that music? :D

[lunghushan]

The Five Elders story is present in many folk tales and respectable lineages. Yes, there is no concrete proof (as of yet). However, there are many versions of this story in various places. On the other hand, the Su Kong story is only present in Shaolin Do. On top of that, it contradicts the Five Elders story.

And "neil", modern, credible archaeologists take a no B.S. approach to research. They use the finest in scientific equiptment to examine evidence. And respectable martial arts researchers examine evidence as well.

Yeah but Archaeologists come to some strange conclusions. For example, Tibetans who live in very dry and high altitudes used to practice something called 'sky burials', where a dead person, they carve them up and feed them to the vultures.

So in the Southwest U.S., archaeologists came across a lot of human bones that were carved up, high on these mountain peaks. So they decided that the people in the Southwest must practice human sacrifice and cannibalism.

They couldn't concieve of sky burials.

Do you see what I'm talking about here? They came to a conclusion based upon limited evidence. The conclusion may be correct but also may be incorrect, yet they think it is truth.

[lunghushan]

Let me ask with Unicorn step is one of the feet turned toe out with a raising of the knee high sort of looks like you are stomping the leg of an opponent. and the weight is carried low sort of gliding ?? KC

Yeah, what I was told Unicorn step is is a low stepping pattern where you cross step. In other words, step sideways in a low stance, back foot crosses in front of the front foot, then they switch. It looks like he's doing unicorn step, but he's way too high.

You could probably do it like you're saying with the knee high as well.

I don't really know what stepping is supposed to be done in this particular form except that it looks like it should be unicorn step and he's not really doing that, he's too high.

[The Xia]

It really depends on who is doing the research. In the past there was tons of lousy research that was called archaeology. Lousy researchers still exist, but there are alot of excellent ones as well. If you are truelly interested, read up on the better ones. The good ones examine all evidence, use scientific analysis, and put their findings into words. They explain precisely how their findings came about.

[lunghushan]

It really depends on who is doing the research. In the past there was tons of lousy research that was called archaeology. Lousy researchers still exist, but there are alot of excellent ones as well. If you are truelly interested, read up on the better ones. The good ones examine all evidence, use scientific analysis, and put their findings into words. They explain precisely how their findings came about.

Well what happens is there isn't really enough evidence most of the time to make conclusions, yet they make conclusions anyway.

And everybody accepts that as the truth, not realizing there wasn't enough evidence.

For example, Bering straight and humans coming over. They couldn't concieve of any ancient civilization having ships or anything that could reach the Americas, so they said it must have been a land bridge.

But now through other research they know that the Ming dynasty and before had huge ships capable of coming over, possibly even the Egyptians did too, and one guy built a raft that could do it of very basic materials.

So it kindof blows the entire land bridge theory out of the water. Yet that was considered by most scientists as the truth instead of a possibility.

[lunghushan]

OK well I do unicorn stepping then as you can guess different teachers emphasize different aspects of the art or form and teach it differently based upon their body style and strengths. Thanks for your imput and patience. KC

No problem, I'm not judging your style or anything, the form looks like a good form, just his execution isn't quite correct.

[The Xia]

There are alot of theories on some things and other things are proven. It's as simple as that. Today, more and more things are discovered and more and more history is revealed. There has also been alot of lousy research from the past that was passed off as archaeology that has now been proven wrong. There are still people who propogate falsities, but they are pushed to the fringe by the mainstream researchers.

[lunghushan]

There are alot of theories on some things and other things are proven. It's as simple as that. Today, more and more things are discovered and more and more history is revealed. There has also been alot of lousy research from the past that was passed off as archaeology that has now been proven wrong. There are still people who propogate falsities, but they are pushed to the fringe by the mainstream researchers.

No, it's not as simple, because if you understood the logical underpinnings of science you'd understand that it's based upon inductive reasoning, therefore nothing is ever proven, ever.

[The Xia]

"neil", that is simply not true. I acknowledged that there are many theories. However, we do know many things. If what you said was true, the Roman Coliseum could be thought of as a U.F.O. landing pad. However, in reality, we know much about the Coliseum.

[lunghushan]

"neil", that is simply not true. I acknowledged that there are many theories. However, we do know many things. If what you said was true, the Roman Coliseum could be thought of as a U.F.O. landing pad. However, in reality, we know much about the Coliseum.

No, I'm serious, nothing is ever proven in science. If you don't believe me, you need to study the logic behind science.

Hypothesis->Theory->Law, but laws still are not 100% proven.

Sure, it's highly probable that the Coliseum is not a UFO landing pad, but we don't know that for sure. We don't know for sure there aren't really UFOs from other planets, right?

[The Xia]

The existence of extraterrestrial visititation to this planet is a different game all together.
Do we really want to completely derail this thread with aliens and flying saucers? :p

As for the Coliseum, we do know allot about it. If you are interested, do some reading on it.

[lunghushan]

The existence of extraterrestrial visititation to this planet is a different game all together.
Do we really want to completely derail this thread with aliens and flying saucers? :p

As for the Coliseum, we do know allot about it. If you are interested, do some reading on it.

You were the one who brought up UFOs.

I have done a lot of reading about the Coliseum. I don't think that the Coliseum is a UFO landing pad, and the evidence would suggest that it was not. But it's not scientifically proven, because nothing is ever proven in science.

Most people don't understand the scientific method or the logical underpinnings of science, the difference between deductive and inductive reasoning, etc.

[Radhnoti]

The pic of Su Kong and the website KC referenced was posted in an SD discussion thread before. Maybe not this thread, but who can tell with the size of this thread now...anyway, I recall looking at that site before. And if the person who researched it did a good job and still called Su Kong Tai Djin a "buddhist master" wouldn't that also contradict SD history which states Su Kong was a "martial monk"?
I suspect, as others have posted, that the website maker was just googling around for "hypertrichosis" and took the first pics that popped up.

But, yeah, none of this matters unless your a lineage prima donna...which it seems most kung fu guys are. :p

[BoulderDawg]

You were the one who brought up UFOs.

I have done a lot of reading about the Coliseum. I don't think that the Coliseum is a UFO landing pad, and the evidence would suggest that it was not. But it's not scientifically proven, because nothing is ever proven in science.

Most people don't understand the scientific method or the logical underpinnings of science, the difference between deductive and inductive reasoning, etc.

We absolutely cannot talk about aliens....Their lineage cannot be proven!:eek:

[Judge Pen]

Lunghushan,

The person in the video isn't an SD master or even a full-time teacher. He is an average student who has attained a higher rank in SD.

In short, the person in that video is me, and I freely acknowedge that the form can and should be done more correctly. It is, however, a good representation of my forms skill.

[The Xia]

What about the music? :p

[lunghushan]

Lunghushan,

The person in the video isn't an SD master or even a full-time teacher. He is an average student who has attained a higher rank in SD.

In short, the person in that video is me, and I freely acknowedge that the form can and should be done more correctly. It is, however, a good representation of my forms skill.

Well I'm sorry for being critical.

Of course, part of my beef with the unicorn step is that I have a really hard time doing it myself ... also one of my teachers told me it's the first thing to go when people get older so a lot of lineages do not do their forms correctly because they were taught by older people. (He himself cannot do it because he f'ed up his knee).

[lunghushan]

Look, the reason I say, 900 forms ??? Is not because of the number of forms.

But how can you be a master of 900 forms? There's just no physical way. There aren't enough hours in the day.

You might be able to 'do' many forms, but you will not be able to do them correctly.

People in ancient times used to only usually master one weapon. The amoung of practice time for getting good at one weapon usually precluded mastering 2-3 weapons. Occasionally you'd find somebody who was really good at 2-3, who practiced an awful lot, but usually it was just one.

When you hear about famous generals or samurai who were good at spear, sword and bow, they spent all their spare time practicing and usually practiced full time as well. If you hold down a job there aren't enough hours in the day to practice.

[Judge Pen]

Don't be sorry for being critical. That form has already been posted and disected both for my ability and the CMA origin of the form. It is an example of an authentic SD form. The stepping was done the way I was taught, so I don't know how to compare it to your unicorn stepping.

The music was me playing around when I edited it, and then I could't take it off when I posted it. What, you have something against "Live"?

[Judge Pen]

Look, the reason I say, 900 forms ??? Is not because of the number of forms.

But how can you be a master of 900 forms? There's just no physical way. There aren't enough hours in the day.

You might be able to 'do' many forms, but you will not be able to do them correctly.

People in ancient times used to only usually master one weapon. The amoung of practice time for getting good at one weapon usually precluded mastering 2-3 weapons. Occasionally you'd find somebody who was really good at 2-3, who practiced an awful lot, but usually it was just one.

When you hear about famous generals or samurai who were good at spear, sword and bow, they spent all their spare time practicing and usually practiced full time as well. If you hold down a job there aren't enough hours in the day to practice.

I'm skeptical of 900 forms too, but in truth, I don't know how many forms Sin The has. I know he has said that he has to go back and work many of them up before he teaches them.

[BlueTravesty]

Some analogies:

Modern Shaolin (the current curriculum at the temple)::"Classical Shaolin"
as
Chinese food in Chinatown (any):: Real Chinese Food
Ergo...
Shaolin Derived Styles in America::Modern Shaolin::"Classical Shaolin"
as
Chinese-American Food::Chinese Food in Chinatown::Real Chinese Food

In other words, Chinese-American Food can still taste very good (Bourbon Chicken and Crab Rangoons, anyone?) and the guy/gal cooking it can still be said to be very talented, a master even- but it's still not Authentic. The best Chinese-American food chef might cook better tasting and higher quality food than a mediocre Chinatown Chef, but they're ultimately two different roads; the "fake" Chinese chef still can't go to the Chinatown chef and say "Hey, that's not Chinese food! It doesn't taste anything like mine!" without first defying quite a few key principles behind that process we like to call "Critical Thinking."

It all comes down to- do you want to make/eat poor quality authentic food, or high-quality "fake" food?

Me, I'd rather have high quality authentic food. But as we all know, that is a hard find, and some people don't like authentic food ("yuck, squid!" "Ewwww... you're gonna eat TOFU???") which is fine. Live and let live.
Make of that what you will. :D

[Radhnoti]

BT. Borrowing your example: What if the "Chinese food" was controlled by the communist Chinese food association and they'd passed new guidelines for the nutritional values the "Chinese food" must contain. Tasting more sweet was also a new prerequisite.
"Authentic" becomes a bit of a moot point...it's all been changed.

[The Willow Sword]

Have you received a response from Prof. Dikotter? TWS

[Judge Pen]

Here is Dr. Dikotter's response and my follow-up:

Dr. Dikotter,

Thank you for your reply. I am not privy to the other inquiaries other than they have been made. Can you tell me whether or not you have come across this photograph before? If so, do you believe this to be Li Baoshu? Again, thank you for your time.


http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2549&d=1109867470

[Judge Pen]

-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Dikotter [mailto:dikotter@mac.com]
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 1:29 PM
To: [Judge Pen]
Subject: Re: Li Baoshu

Hi [JP],

I have received many similar questions about Li Baoshu but unfortunately do not know anything else!

Frank

[Golden Tiger]

Hi [JP],

I have received many similar questions about Li Baoshu but unfortunately do not know anything else!

Frank



aka....stop bugging me and start training....:D

[Judge Pen]

Yep, probably. Too bad TWS' computer crashed so we could have those e-mails.

[The Willow Sword]

that was not the reply i got when i emailed Dikotter. Yes it would be nice if i had those email messages from him. from what i can recall the reply to my inquiry was something along the lines of " i have never seen this particular pic of li baoshu before, but that is definately him etc etc". i emailed him back asking where he got the pic he used in his article and he responded with the name of the book(which i have posted on page 78 of this thread).

i find it strange that the response would be as such JP(considering that there was a definite idenitification from prof. dikotter based on his skills of discernment). although it has been a couple of years since i emailed him, and i wouldnt expect that this subject would be on the forefront of his mind. I am not lying about contacting him or lying about what his response was to me at the time i emailed him. (im not that kind of person,ill swear on my life to it).

regardless, the info i recieved already proved to me what i already knew, whether you guys want to say its inconclusive is your interpretation and quite frankly your own denial. The prof. doesnt know of SD nor does he spend his time exlporing the in's and outs of the lineage and history as we have done here countless times. Because The prof. article had no relation to martial arts but contained that pic which is clearly the same as the suit and tie li baoshu, i had wanted to contact him directly and ask him if he thought the two pics were the same individual. he corroborated at the time that it was definately him. Hey and it is possible that he could have changed his mind but i had recieved no follow ups and wouldnt expect that he would email me back.

i maintain my stance based on the info i recieved at the time i asked for it, it proved to me a great many things about the school and my dealings with sd.
i am gone from it now, i am much better off knowing that i dont support or condone an organization,regardless of how good or solid the material is,who misrepresents itself and who fabricates its lineage to further a money making agenda and to ride the coat tail of the TCMA/Shaolin realm. it doesnt matter if you are a good school,if you bullsh!t your trip then you arent worth squat,you lack integrity and honor and that is something thati dont want to be a part of.

So debate away, post your own rhetoric, choke the bandwidth with this thread.
if your conscience doesnt bother you then so be it.

Peace,TWS

[Learn]

Gentlepersons,

I have been travelling and there has been much discussion. I offer some thoughts from my perspective. Take them or leave them as you will. I don't worry about lineage. I really don't care about whether it came straight from wherever. When the rubber meets the road, does it grip? Can Sin The trace his lineage to Da Mo? Who cares. You can't even get a consensus on whether Da Mo existed. I look at it very practically. Does what SD teach makes sense. My academic training teaches me to look at things with an eye toward analysis and proof. The whole hairy guy thing? I don't care if he taught my teacher or not, but I do become concerned when it is proffered as truth as to lineage. I'm ok with no mystery to my teacher's lineage. I get concerned though when someone offers me something that is obviously a hoax to justify importance. It is what it is, if you've got genuine teachings to pass on, you don't need a monkey man. Lest that sound harsh, as I have said before, SD did good things for me. Yet, I feel there is some honsesty lacking. I have studied Japanese, Chinese, SD, Philipino, Indonesian, American martial arts. I love CMA most above all. But what I learned in SD, at a somewhat advanced level, let me down. Here's the deal (I am not the end all be all of martial wisdom, but here's my thoughts) you just can't master monkey, tiger, eagle, crane, tai ji, ba gua, etc. etc. etc, by learning the forms. You have to find a teacher dedicated to teaching those particular things. Each has so much to offer and so many nuances. The nuances get lost in SD, and that's where a martial art lies.

[Learn]

A previous poster asked if I had been cut in a knife fight or training. No, I have not been cut in a knife fight, but I have been injured many times in training. I believe he was responding to my post about Kali and my thoughts that it was a real world method of training. I dont wish to engage in a diXX wagging contest. Kali is very reality oriented and trains as such, depending on the teacher. There is no reason CMA cannot be the same. I am sure a good kick axx hard core muthafucxx jian/dao teacher can do the same. There is much benefit to doing forms with jian/dao without any realism, but to use them as a practical matter is a different thing. Can most CMA practioners do that? I do not denigrate doing sword forms, I love them, but going to real combative application is another level I fear may be missed in many schools. If your school is different, I applaud you. You are in a good place.

[Golden Tiger]

that was not the reply i got when i emailed Dikotter.......

.......i find it strange that the response would be as such JP

....... I am not lying about contacting him or lying about what his response was to me at the time i emailed him. (im not that kind of person,ill swear on my life to it).

.........Hey and it is possible that he could have changed his mind ......

........i maintain my stance based on the info i recieved at the time i asked for it,

.......So debate away, post your own rhetoric, choke the bandwidth with this thread.
if your conscience doesnt bother you then so be it.

Peace,TWS

For those of you keeping score at home, it is now:

TWS spouting off on this forum: 2
TWS backing up anything he says: 0

[Judge Pen]

LOL at GT.

TWS, for what its worth, I don't think you are lying about Dr. D's responses. Perhaps he is just tired of people from the internet asking him silly questions about a hairy man. But I posted the extra pics (which many would argue hurts SD's claims) because I don't care if Su Kong was real or not. It's never really bothered me so I have no reason to sit on informaiton that may or may not prove he was someone else wor whatever. If I find some information that can actually speak to a claim that is made, I'll talk about it here.

I get tired of statements made (from both camps) that have nothing to support them but suppostition and opinion.

[Baqualin]

LOL at GT.

TWS, for what its worth, I don't think you are lying about Dr. D's responses. Perhaps he is just tired of people from the internet asking him silly questions about a hairy man. But I posted the extra pics (which many would argue hurts SD's claims) because I don't care if Su Kong was real or not. It's never really bothered me so I have no reason to sit on informaiton that may or may not prove he was someone else wor whatever. If I find some information that can actually speak to a claim that is made, I'll talk about it here.

I get tired of statements made (from both camps) that have nothing to support them but suppostition and opinion.

AMEN JP!! Finally someone is making sense. It would be nice to learn from each other instead of bickering back and forth about things that will not inhance your skills in any way as a martial artist.

TWS: I've sit back and watched this thread for quite some time.....it's the same people commenting everytime...even when you go back months or years.....so your mission to discredit SD will not be successful here, your only going round and round with the same people and we're (SD) still growing everyday. It would be nice to share training methods and positive information you've pick up in your studies. I think you have a lot to offer.

[The Xia]

The music was me playing around when I edited it, and then I could't take it off when I posted it. What, you have something against "Live"?
For my tastes, there are only a few kinds of music that go well with forms.

[Judge Pen]

For my tastes, there are only a few kinds of music that go well with forms.

Examples? Don't tell me the soundtrack to "Mortal Combat" :p

[The Xia]

Traditional Asian music or classical. Pretty much nothing modern, unless it's movie music.

[BM2]

How about Elvis's "Promised Land"?;)

[BlueTravesty]

BT. Borrowing your example: What if the "Chinese food" was controlled by the communist Chinese food association and they'd passed new guidelines for the nutritional values the "Chinese food" must contain. Tasting more sweet was also a new prerequisite.
"Authentic" becomes a bit of a moot point...it's all been changed.

That is a good analogy... to modern wushu anyway. I'm sure modern wushu had some impact on the teaching of traditional arts, but I think that given the feud between Wushu and Traditional practitioners, they can still be thought as two totally seperate entities.

I've heard the argument of "So what if our style looks different? China made Modern Wushu, so anything from China must look different from the 'original.'" I am sure that the Praying Mantis of today looks somewhat different from Wong Long's original method; but I think that has to do more with the various styles that came about (Seven Star, Plum Flower, Taiji Mantis, Six Harmonies, Eight Step, etc.) than with any possible influence from Modern Wushu (yes, I know they have a mantis form.) Many mantis schools in the U.S get their lineage from Taiwan or Hong Kong. These two places were places of refuge for Martial Artists fleeing persecution during the cultural revolution.

As for "sweetness"; styles such as Longfist (just about every sub-category) Pigua, Eagle Claw, Mizong, etc. have had high, spinning kicks and jumps for a LONG time. I'm talking about before Modern Wushu was even thought of. The difference between these styles (traditional Long Fist was the basis upon which Modern Wushu was developed) was the forms, martial flavor and intent, and MUCH less emphasis on these difficult techniques. Most traditional styles will teach a 360 degree jump-spinning crescent. Wushu will teach a 540 degree kick with a run across the room, landing in a split.

In short, like Chinatown food, the Shaolin currently taught at the Shaolin temple may be different from pre-20th Century Shaolin. And yes, some of the monks do Wushu. However, from what I have seen of them in performances, that is not ALL they do, as some like to claim. The Chinese government does not currently regulate Shaolin or any other traditional style, unless you count the compulsories that SHAOLIN ITSELF created and wants to get accepted in Wushu competition. These look NOTHING like Wushu Changquan. Nor do the traditional forms taught in the Shaolin curriculum like Da/Xiao Hong, Da/Xiao Lohan, Seven Star fist (not mantis), etc.

[unkokusai]

Traditional Asian music .


...........................:rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

To each their own. I like a bit more "umph" behind my work-out music. Now the pan flute isn't bad if I'm doing tai chi, but even then I like a more modern influence to my music.

[lxtruong]

To each their own. I like a bit more "umph" behind my work-out music. Now the pan flute isn't bad if I'm doing tai chi, but even then I like a more modern influence to my music.

Right on. The type of music has to fit. It's like the time that "Georgia on my mind" (Ray Charles) was on while we were doing iron palm. I swear the bar felt especially heavy that day.

[BlueTravesty]

For weapon form mood-music, I like "New Legend" from the Soul Calibur/Soul Calibur 3 soundtrack. Of course, this is because I am a hopeless nerd.

[MasterKiller]

I'm a Public Enemy man, myself.

Get Up and Get, Get Down!
Nine-One-One is joke in yo' town!

[The Xia]

...........................:rolleyes:
Your point is?

[Judge Pen]

I'm a Public Enemy man, myself.

Get Up and Get, Get Down!
Nine-One-One is joke in yo' town!

How do you swing that Monk's spade with the big clock around your neck?

[BlueTravesty]

no fair, TheXia! You should've taken a small snippet of unkokusai's post, quoted it and then given 'im the old :rolleyes: or if you're REALLY spunky maybe one of these :eek:

Don't you know ANYTHING about forum debates?? That quote should have only had 3 elipses. Geez :rolleyes: <./sarcasm>

[MasterKiller]

How do you swing that Monk's spade with the big clock around your neck?

The clock is easy to aviod. Keeping the top hat on while spinning the spade behind my back is the real trick.

[Radhnoti]

Blue Travesty - "Many mantis schools in the U.S get their lineage from Taiwan or Hong Kong. These two places were places of refuge for Martial Artists fleeing persecution during the cultural revolution."

Many who practice kuntao would argue the Chinese enclaves, in Indonesia, were places of refuge for Martial Artists fleeing persecution during the cultural revolution as well.

[BlueTravesty]

I would agree, great point for Kuntao. However, look at Kuntao and Shaolin-Do. Two totally different beasts. Kuntao may have elements of CMA that "modern" CMA may have "lost" but on the same token, many of these elements could just have easily been a result of cultural and martial cross-pollination. As you mentioned, many Kuntao teachings are based on Taiji, Bagua and Xingyi. These arts aren't known for the "flash" elements that are present in Northern Chinese styles like LongFist, etc. Therefore, if that's what they know, practice and have had handed down to them, it would be all to easy to look at Long Fist and say "Yeah, that's not real. That's just Wushu" based on superficial similarities.

[The Xia]

no fair, TheXia! You should've taken a small snippet of unkokusai's post, quoted it and then given 'im the old :rolleyes: or if you're REALLY spunky maybe one of these :eek:

Don't you know ANYTHING about forum debates?? That quote should have only had 3 elipses. Geez :rolleyes: <./sarcasm>
What? :confused:

[Judge Pen]

I would agree, great point for Kuntao. However, look at Kuntao and Shaolin-Do. Two totally different beasts. Kuntao may have elements of CMA that "modern" CMA may have "lost" but on the same token, many of these elements could just have easily been a result of cultural and martial cross-pollination. As you mentioned, many Kuntao teachings are based on Taiji, Bagua and Xingyi. These arts aren't known for the "flash" elements that are present in Northern Chinese styles like LongFist, etc.

Doesnt' that depend on what the people who settled in Indonesia trained in prior to settling there? I agree with the cross pollination. Indonesia appears to be quite the martial melting pot.

[BlueTravesty]

What? :confused:

I noticed that unkokusai kinda took a small piece of what you said, responded with a bunch of elipses, a :rolleyes: and refused to elaborate past that. You gave him a much more thorough response. I dunno I was in a wierd mood.

[The Xia]

I noticed that unkokusai kinda took a small piece of what you said, responded with a bunch of elipses, a :rolleyes: and refused to elaborate past that. You gave him a much more thorough response. I dunno I was in a wierd mood.
I now understand what you were saying.

[ricardocameron]

Don't be sorry for being critical. That form has already been posted and disected both for my ability and the CMA origin of the form. It is an example of an authentic SD form. The stepping was done the way I was taught, so I don't know how to compare it to your unicorn stepping.

The music was me playing around when I edited it, and then I could't take it off when I posted it. What, you have something against "Live"?

First of all, LIVE is the shiznit!! And the song worked well with your form; I liked it.

More, More!!

The forms issue?? Maybe he's including the short forms, sparring techniques, 10 street techniques, chin-na, etc.... and exagerating ;)

[Learn]

Kwai Chung,

I'm going to practice jian forms this weekend because I enjoy them. I'm also going to practice Kali skills, because I feel that what Leo Gaje has to teach is truly applicable to the real modern world. I haven't been cut, but my teachers have known real world blade combat. How does this fit in to the discussion about SD?, It's a great foundation but I don't think it leads one to the ultimate destination. If one wishes to really achieve in cma, I don't feel SD is the ultimate goal. I followed that path, and I still take some things from it, but ultimately, it will not provide the way. I do not wish to denigrate those who follow that path. I hope you get alot from it, this is just my perspective.

[ricardocameron]

:confused: .....and Ed Parker's rolling in his grave. American Kenpo Karate...
He took cma (Shaolin)and "scientifically improved" on it..( read: MADE UP STUFF)..who gives a rat's ass? Does it work?

Gichin funakoshi, Karate-Do.....

O-Sensei Ueshiba Morihei - The Founder of Modern Aikido.....

It's the SHAOLIN WAY (shao-lin DO)!!!!!!

[Citong Shifu]

Hey Everyone,
I'm sorry for bringing this up, but I've been reseaching the different shaolin do websites and I'm still very confused about the style. I always approach different styles with an open mind, like many others, I'm not the authority on the 1000's of styles out there today....

My question is this, Shaolin Do is based from the Fukien / Fujian Shaolin Temple arts, but I dont see the three Shaolin core styles.... Also, What is the "Grandmaster of Shaolin" all about or the "Youngest Grandmaster of Shaolin"? Every Shaolin Temple has there Grandmasters (for martial arts), since Sin The' was from Indonesia, was there another Shaolin Temple there that he became Grandmaster of?

I ask these questions because of the information found on the Shaolin do websites. When reading SD websites it sounds as though SD's Grandmaster is Grandmaster of all Shaolin kungfu....

Like I've said, I'm just confused and mean no disrespect, can anyone help this make sense to me???


Sifu Ron.

[brucereiter]

Hey Everyone,
I'm sorry for bringing this up, but I've been reseaching the different shaolin do websites and I'm still very confused about the style. I always approach different styles with an open mind, like many others, I'm not the authority on the 1000's of styles out there today....

My question is this, Shaolin Do is based from the Fukien / Fujian Shaolin Temple arts, but I dont see the three Shaolin core styles.... Also, What is the "Grandmaster of Shaolin" all about or the "Youngest Grandmaster of Shaolin"? Every Shaolin Temple has there Grandmasters (for martial arts), since Sin The' was from Indonesia, was there another Shaolin Temple there that he became Grandmaster of?

I ask these questions because of the information found on the Shaolin do websites. When reading SD websites it sounds as though SD's Grandmaster is Grandmaster of all Shaolin kungfu....

Like I've said, I'm just confused and mean no disrespect, can anyone help this make sense to me???


Sifu Ron.

hello ron,

depending on how you read it it can be confusing ...

as far as i know grandmaster the' is the grandmaster or leader of a martial arts system called shaolin do. shaolin do is a collection of chinese martial arts styles that was organized in indonisia. grandmaster the' is not and as far as i know the grandmaster of any shaolin TEMPLE but is like i stated before the grandmaster of shaolin do. as far as being the youngest grandmaster he was a young man when his teacher handed the system over to him ...

what are the "3 core styles" you are not seeing in shaolin do?

p.s. everything i wrote is what i understand the truth to be. i am sorry if i am mistaken.

[Citong Shifu]

shaolindoiscool,
Thanks! The three core styles would be shaolin quan, shaolin louhan quan, shaolin di shu... Ok, it makes more since to me now (A collection of shaolin forms).

Thanks Again...

[ricardocameron]

shaolindoiscool,
Ok, it makes more since to me now (A collection of shaolin forms).

Thanks Again...


EXACTLY!
Grandmaster The is head an extensive system of collected Shao-Lin teachings, PROBABLY the most comprehensive around...that's all, there may be other GM's, but they probably don't have alot of this stuff... But, as I don't have SD teaching available now, I'd do most any MA, for balance, timing, etc!!

"The Shaolin Temples were the equivalent of universities for the martial arts. Masters were professors, each of them a specialist in a particular area of training. Temples were known for a particular style, just like medical schools of today. Monks at each temple still practiced the forms from the other temples, but they specialized in the style for which their particular temple was known for.
Over the course of time, an untold amount of martial knowledge was housed at the Shaolin temples... "


Read more here:
http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/theart.shtml
and
http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/history.shtml

We can't know much more, no good records from china.....:(

We have differences. May we, together, become greater than the sum of both of us.

There is no offense where none is taken.


Fake-ass Vulcan "teachings" from StarTrek. But who cares?

Truth is Truth, no matter WHO says it .

[brucereiter]

shaolindoiscool,
Thanks! The three core styles would be shaolin quan, shaolin louhan quan, shaolin di shu... Ok, it makes more since to me now (A collection of shaolin forms).

Thanks Again...

hi ron,

i know Luo Han Quan (Fist of the Arhat) is taught in shaolin do, "di shu" i dont know it by that name and i am not sure what "shaolin quan" is.

i am in the internal martial arts program so i have not really learned the forms in question here ...

[Yao Sing]

"The Shaolin Temples were the equivalent of universities for the martial arts. Masters were professors, each of them a specialist in a particular area of training. Temples were known for a particular style, just like medical schools of today. Monks at each temple still practiced the forms from the other temples, but they specialized in the style for which their particular temple was known for.
Over the course of time, an untold amount of martial knowledge was housed at the Shaolin temples... "

Whatever happened to Bhuddism? Reading this it sounds like the Temples were all about fighting and getting advanced MA degrees.

Physical exercise was just a side item and fighting was just a small piece (or byproduct) of the physical training.

[brucereiter]

Whatever happened to Bhuddism? Reading this it sounds like the Temples were all about fighting and getting advanced MA degrees.

Physical exercise was just a side item and fighting was just a small piece (or byproduct) of the physical training.

it is all in the interpetation and understanding of the reader. i dont think shaolin do claims to be a religious practice it claims to be a martial arts practice that in part has roots in buddhist temples.

what is buddhisim to you?

[Radhnoti]

It is my understanding that shaolin-do's history indicates that there were two "types" of monks. Those specializing in Buddhism and those specializing in various martial arts. (Interestingly, I've always felt GM Sin to be somewhat Taoist in his philosophy/discourse...I've never heard him mention Buddhism.) Shaolin-do teaches that Su Kong Tai Djin was the first martial monk to receive teaching in every "style" taught by Shaolin, making him the first "Grandmaster of all Shaolin". Shaolin-do tradition (once just oral, I'm assuming) indicates that Grandmaster Ie next received the "full transmission"...and Grandmaster Sin is the third and youngest. In the GM Sin collaborated book, it's stated plainly that the huge amount of material could never be mastered without "Sixth Sense Training", which includes a sort of trained photographic memory among other things. Many critics point out that no SD Master has ever mentioned being trained in this discipline...though, I suppose it could also be argued that the training would be SD's ultimate "closed door" training, and therefore not openly discussed.

It's probably not completely accurate to say GM Sin doesn't consider himself "The GM of all Shaolin", since the history shaolin-do presents indicates that he is the only one who could have legitimately received the title. I always got the impression from the teachers I interacted with that the title was like a relic of a shaolin "golden age"...
There have been statements made on THIS board (by Reemul for one as I recall...the fellow TheWillowSword carried out a challenge match against as a SD guy) that GM Sin and/or agents of GM Sin went to various schools that claimed shaolin heritage and requested that they recognize his Grandmaster of Shaolin title. I cannot verify this to be true, but it's a charge I saw leveled on this board more than once. Things were certainly interesting for shaolin-do in the late 70's through early 80's, lots of fighting...from my perspective it looks like there were some pretty big personalities (how's that for political correctness :D ) too.

[Leto]

Totally irrelevant and off topic, but...
GM The mentioned at one of his seminars a few years ago, while he was talking about spirituality and immortality and stuff, that his number one spiritual inspiration is Jesus and number two is Buddha.
People who were hanging out with GM The on the last CSC China trip (2004) said someone asked him if he was Buddhist or Taoist. He said something like "Buddhism says no eat meat, no sex. Taoism says eat meat and sex are ok. Which one you think I am?"
Another point for him being more Taoist than anything is his professed quest for immortality, or at least longevity. He shared with us that he plans to live to at least 120 or 130 years old, and that he will achieve this because of his qi gong practices.

[Yao Sing]

New picture of Shaolin Do founder Su Kong recently discovered.

[Citong Shifu]

hi ron,

i know Luo Han Quan (Fist of the Arhat) is taught in shaolin do, "di shu" i dont know it by that name and i am not sure what "shaolin quan" is.

i am in the internal martial arts program so i have not really learned the forms in question here ...


shaolindoiscool,
Shaolin Quan = Shaolin Boxing, Shaolin Louhan Quan = Louhan Boxing, & Shaolin Di Shu Quan = Shaolin Ground or Dog boxing... Each being a complete style to itself... I did see in one of the SD's websites a curriculum that mentioned shaolin louhan quan. Is this a form from louhan or the actual shaolin louhan style? I thought it was just a single form when reading it on the list...

Anyway, it doesnt matter... SD has a very diverse amount of material..... Alot to learn.... Good luck with your training...

Sifu Ron...

[Radhnoti]

Yao Sing, I bet in this thread alone someone has posted something like that 20 or more times...often it's Chewbacca from Star Wars, but I've seen a lot of dogs too. I guess it loses it's charm after 10 or so. :)

Leto, I've heard GM Sin mention immortality as well like it was something semi-achievable. Did you ever catch any of those online "shows" he was doing where he was dressed in white with a mostly white background? There was supposed to be a group of them, but I think the site it was being released on went under.
Regarding immortality...every "longevity" chi thing I've run across where that's the goal mentions abstaining from sex. Just from GM Sin's comments (like the one you mentioned)...I hope he's found a good way to work around that. He always seem to have a pretty girl or two around.

[The Xia]

Grandmaster The is head an extensive system of collected Shao-Lin teachings, PROBABLY the most comprehensive around...
It's probably not completely accurate to say GM Sin doesn't consider himself "The GM of all Shaolin", since the history shaolin-do presents indicates that he is the only one who could have legitimately received the title. I always got the impression from the teachers I interacted with that the title was like a relic of a shaolin "golden age"...
After all that has been said in this thread you are still sticking to this?

[lunghushan]

New picture of Shaolin Do founder Su Kong recently discovered.

Thank you. That's the best post on this thread by far.

[kungfujunky]

Thank you. That's the best post on this thread by far.



i think its the most childish reply i have seen. we are all looking for answers and some person thinks that is a cool idea?

what a complete lack of respect that shows. and a total waste of time as well.

[BlueTravesty]

I thought it was pretty relevant to the level of maturity throughout this discussion by all parties (myself included.)

But hey, what do I know? I practice a "fake" traditional style with stuff like butterfly kicks, etc. that NEVER EVER were in ANY form of Shaolin kung fu, and is an invention of the time-traveling Modern Wushu conspiracy

See, what happens, is Wushu Players do their forms so fast, they actually start to go back in time. Jet Li went so far back in time, he landed in Henan Province during the Tang Dynasty, and intentionally corrupted Kung Fu to make it look like Wushu. Since ALL KUNG FU COMES FROM SHAOLIN, this of course had a ripple effect that was only escaped by a few plucky persons who fled to Indonesia. Did you think it was a coincidence that he was in the movie Shaolin Temple? I think not.

[brucereiter]

shaolindoiscool,
Shaolin Quan = Shaolin Boxing, Shaolin Louhan Quan = Louhan Boxing, & Shaolin Di Shu Quan = Shaolin Ground or Dog boxing... Each being a complete style to itself... I did see in one of the SD's websites a curriculum that mentioned shaolin louhan quan. Is this a form from louhan or the actual shaolin louhan style? I thought it was just a single form when reading it on the list...

Anyway, it doesnt matter... SD has a very diverse amount of material..... Alot to learn.... Good luck with your training...

Sifu Ron...

hi ron,

thanks for the info. i am not really sure about the external martial arts side of shaolin do as i practice tai chi chuan, pakua and hsingi as my main focus.

maybe one of the other sd people know.
yes we do have a wide range of material ...

what do you train?

[brucereiter]

It's probably not completely accurate to say GM Sin doesn't consider himself "The GM of all Shaolin", since the history shaolin-do presents indicates that he is the only one who could have legitimately received the title. I always got the impression from the teachers I interacted with that the title was like a relic of a shaolin "golden age"...
.

hi radhnoti,

what history are you speaking about?

as far as i know grand master the' recieved the title from his teacher in indonesia ie chang ming would was buddhist and used to be a monk but was not in any monastic order in indonesia. i have heard grand master the' say he is grand master of shaolin but i do not think he implies he he the leader for example of the shaolin temple. i think he implies he is the "holder" of a very large collection of martial arts that were passed onto him from his teacher and the leader of a system called shaolin do.

i guess you would have to define what "shaolin" is. i think logic will tell you.

no offense intended i just do not agree with the above ...

[Citong Shifu]

hi ron,

thanks for the info. i am not really sure about the external martial arts side of shaolin do as i practice tai chi chuan, pakua and hsingi as my main focus.

maybe one of the other sd people know.
yes we do have a wide range of material ...

what do you train?


SDIC,
I train Fujian / Fukien Shaolin Temple Kungfu; shaolin quan, shaolin louhan quan, & shaolin di shu which is our core training. We also teach changquan, tong bei quan, & yang taijiquan...

Sifu Ron

[Radhnoti]

The Xia - "After all that has been said in this thread you are still sticking to this?"

Not sure if you were entirely referring to me, as you quoted two posters. I'm just giving my impression of how shaolin-do represents itself to it's students...based entirely on my own perspective. I've already stated that my personal opinion is that Su Kong Tai Djin was never a GM in any Shaolin temple. I think GM Ie put SD together with his colleagues in Indonesia...AND I think the system was (originally) Shaolin based. SD would NOT be the only martial art with a semi-fictionalized beginning...especially if you compare it to other arts with a genesis in the Indo-Chinese area.

SDIC,

GM Sin's book states, "In 1968, Grandmaster Ie awarded the tenth degree blackbelt and with it the title of Grandmaster of Shaolin to Sin Kwang The'." Earlier it states, "Before his death in China in 1928 at the age of 79, Grandmaster Su Kong Tai Jin passed on the title of Grandmaster of Shaolin to Ie Chang Ming. " And just prior to that, "Tai Jin learned many different styles and eventually became the Grandmaster of Shaolin. As Grandmaster, he was in charge of the temple's fighting arts and training programs." The official Shaolin-do training manual says of GM Sin's decision to not make use of his Nuclear Engineering Degree, "Grandmaster The' realized that while there were many engineers and scientists, he was only Shaolin Grandmaster."

The title, as stated in the shaolin-do literature, (and note the capitalization) is Grandmaster of Shaolin, and that's the title SD represents GM Sin received. When SD students here say, "He's just saying he's the GM of shaolin-do...", well, I disagree with that. It's being stated that he is the only person who can legitimately claim Shaolin martial authority, at least the authority that existed prior to the temple being destroyed. This is not a criticism on my part, just pointing out what I've always assumed was the history passed down to the students.

[The Xia]

Not sure if you were entirely referring to me, as you quoted two posters. I'm just giving my impression of how shaolin-do represents itself to it's students...based entirely on my own perspective. I've already stated that my personal opinion is that Su Kong Tai Djin was never a GM in any Shaolin temple. I think GM Ie put SD together with his colleagues in Indonesia...AND I think the system was (originally) Shaolin based. SD would NOT be the only martial art with a semi-fictionalized beginning...especially if you compare it to other arts with a genesis in the Indo-Chinese area.
So you were simply stating the claims but you do not hold to them?
If so, this thread is making progress.

[Radhnoti]

Maybe less so than you imagine. I've not taken a shaolin-do class since my daughter's birth 2 years ago...and my one time shaolin-do school quit and then was fired. I'm not exactly the standard shaolin-do representative.
I respect the style. I like GM Sin. I like JP and GT...and I like TWS. Everyone is telling the truth from their perspective. I just think there's a whole lotta holes in the story, like what in the heck went on in Indonesia. I think some parts of the beginning of the style have been embellished, just like MANY other martial arts. And I think there have been occasional marketing strategies gone awry. I'm not a part of SD anymore, but I would love to see all it's historical wrinkles ironed out.

[ninthdrunk]

How many of y'all are gonna be at Golden Leopard in a couple weeks?

[Golden Tiger]

How many of y'all are gonna be at Golden Leopard in a couple weeks?


:D .........................

[The Willow Sword]

hehe i think the reason why some here actually "like" me is because they see me as the weird uncle that comes around from time to time, not a threat persay, but just the weird uncle that occasionally rants and raves. Everyone is entertained by the funny uncle:D

The only thing though is that i feel that this title of grandmaster of Shaolin is "self" appointed, rather than recognized by the rest of the cma realm. i mean if we are legitamizing the grandmaster appointment then hell sh!t Fire fellas, I am the grandmaster of starter brand ankle socks. (i love those socks and have been wearing them for years)

Your affectionate weird uncle,TWS:o

[brucereiter]

what are some possible definitions of grandmaster?
what does it mean to be a grandmaster?
how does one become a grandmaster?

[The Xia]

In martial arts, a grandmaster is a Sigung. Someone who's student(s) has student(s). However, in Shaolin Do, grandmaster is being used to mean something along the lines of the Japanese term Soke. And only within Shaolin Do circles do I see Sin The, and Su Kong, recognized as Shaolin "grandmasters" (the supreme authority on all things Shaolin).

[The Xia]

I think just the supreme authority on Shaolin Do but his knowledge of all things Shaolin is truly astounding KC :)
The word I typoed is in bold and underlined
Originally I put "And only within Shaolin Do circles so I see Sin The, and Su Kong, recognized as Shaolin "grandmasters" (the supreme authority on all things Shaolin)."
I accidentally put "s" where I meant "d" (they are right next to each other on the keyboard), therefore altering the meaning. But I edited it. So the error isn't there anymore. What I meant to say (and what it now says in the post) is, "And only within Shaolin Do circles do I see Sin The, and Su Kong, recognized as Shaolin "grandmasters" (the supreme authority on all things Shaolin)."

[Shaolin]

I'm new to the world of Kung Fu and have a questions? Is the systen known as Shaolin-Do real shaolin kung fu???

It is real if someone believes it to be.

[The Xia]

It is real if someone believes it to be.
Incorrect. Belief in something doesn't make it true or real. If someone believes that William Shatner is a 2 foot tall cross between a frog and a lobster, that doesn't make it true.

[brucereiter]

In martial arts, a grandmaster is a Sigung. Someone who's student(s) has student(s). .

the above is i think a good partial definition but i would expand this to say they have been appointed or chosen by the previous grandmaster (leader of a martial arts organization) and will decide in the future who will take control of the system after him.
there are many people under grandmaster the who have their own students and thoses students have students and so on this does not make them a "grandmaster" it makes them someone who has students.

at any rate grandmaster the was chosen by his teacher to be the leader and this is what as far as i know caused him to become "grandmaster".


However, in Shaolin Do, grandmaster is being used to mean something along the lines of the Japanese term Soke. And only within Shaolin Do circles do I see Sin The, and Su Kong, recognized as Shaolin "grandmasters" (the supreme authority on all things Shaolin)

i think the above is an interitation taken to the wrong extreme.

i think you have to define "shaolin" in the context of the statement/claim. i do not think there have ever been claims that gmt is the leader of shaolin temple or ever a part of the current temple under abbot yong xin. he does however as far as i know claim to be the grandmaster of shaolin meaning he is the "holder" of a collection or martial arts known as "shaolin do".

:-)

[Shaolin]

Incorrect. Belief in something doesn't make it true or real. If someone believes that William Shatner is a 2 foot tall cross between a frog and a lobster, that doesn't make it true.

Belief from one does not make something a truth but belief from many does. Example religion, government, mathmatics, language. One day long ago some decided to call a child William Shatner, they introduce him to others as William Shatner. Many years later everyone believes this man is William Shatner. You believe I am incorrect, convince others of this and I will be incorrect. :D Keep searching Xia, I believe someday you'll see it to.

[The Xia]

Mass belief doesn't make it real either. In the past there was a widely held belief that left handed people were inherently evil. That doesn't make it true.

[Shaolin]

Correct. Today it doesn't make it true, but, "in the past" it did.

[The Xia]

Correct. Today it doesn't make it true, but, "in the past" it did.
It wasn't true in the past. People just believed it to be.

[Radhnoti]

I think Shaolin is pointing out that "truth" is often just perspective...a philosophical point he can defend 'til doomsday. :D

SDIC - "i think you have to define "shaolin" in the context of the statement/claim."

I agree. You're ignoring where the shaolin-do term "grandmaster" originated...or, if you're a skeptic, where SD claims it originated. Shaolin-do uses this title to boost confidence in it's "rightness". "We are only two generations removed from the REAL shaolin temple, and our lineage is of the highest caliber. From the only shaolin grandmaster at the historic temple to his successor, to GM Sin."
Maybe this wasn't touted quite as much at your school...but it's certainly everywhere you look in the organizational literature.

KC - "I think just the supreme authority on Shaolin Do but his knowledge of all things Shaolin is truly astounding."

I agree...which is what makes this so tragic. SD almost certainly has "the truth" from it's perspective. How great it would be, for martial historians if no one else, if you could take the puzzle piece it has and fit it in with all the other pieces.

[Judge Pen]

hehe i think the reason why some here actually "like" me is because they see me as the weird uncle that comes around from time to time, not a threat persay, but just the weird uncle that occasionally rants and raves. Everyone is entertained by the funny uncle:D Your affectionate weird uncle,TWS:o

That's a perfect description! :D

[The Xia]

The Five Elders story doesn't have solid proof. However, the story appears in many lineages and other places. On the other hand, the Su Kong story only appears in Shaolin Do. On top of that, the timeframe that the Su Kong story is said to take place in is different from that of the Five Elders story. The Su Kong story conflicts with the Five Elders story both in timeframe and content. Both cannot be true. Now, niether story has solid proof. However, the Su Kong story is only present in Shaolin Do while the Five Elders story is deep in the fabric of Chinese martial arts mythos.

[Judge Pen]

The Five Elders story doesn't have solid proof. However, the story appears in many lineages and other places. On the other hand, the Su Kong story only appears in Shaolin Do. On top of that, the timeframe that the Su Kong story is said to take place in is different from that of the Five Elders story. The Su Kong story conflicts with the Five Elders story both in timeframe and content. Both cannot be true. Now, niether story has solid proof. However, the Su Kong story is only present in Shaolin Do while the Five Elders story is deep in the fabric of Chinese martial arts mythos.


True; however, its mythos none-the-less. Su Kong or the 5 Elders do not have to be based in fact for the martial arts that claim lineage through them to be legitimate.

[tattooedmonk]

The Five Elders story doesn't have solid proof. However, the story appears in many lineages and other places. On the other hand, the Su Kong story only appears in Shaolin Do. On top of that, the timeframe that the Su Kong story is said to take place in is different from that of the Five Elders story. The Su Kong story conflicts with the Five Elders story both in timeframe and content. Both cannot be true. Now, niether story has solid proof. However, the Su Kong story is only present in Shaolin Do while the Five Elders story is deep in the fabric of Chinese martial arts mythos. but ..is it possible that the five elders lineage could have been from a lesser known temple in the area of fujian/ fukien that may have been associated with Sil lum?

and that because the workings of the actual Shaolin temple were done in secret that this is why the legend of Su Kong is not known?

and /or that the five elders story was made up just to make claims that they were Shaolin /Sil lum to add credabilty ??

or that maybe just because the five elders were known to be shaolin and because of there geographical location they were associated with Sil lum??

It comes down to this... Is Shaolin Do A real Shaolin Art or is it just borrowing a name to add legitamacy to what they teach?

If anyone who knows anything about CMA and Shaolin would easily be able to tell from the actual forms that it is shaolin.

It is the unknown history / lineage and the outward appearence that has you all f@@ked up??

Forget what has been passed on by lineage and tradition and look at the body of material that Shaolin Do has to offer and you can surely see that it is real Shaolin.

I have 25 years martialarts experince and 15 years in Shaolin Do and I have studied with many masters and I can tell you that Shaolin Do is one of the most comprehensive martial arts in the world because of the large body of material that is taught.

It is only the way that it is taught and practiced that I have issues with.

For example.... rigid format ,out of date teaching methods ,lack of practical sparring ( tag does not teach you how to fight )and application.... As well as the lack of understanding by the instructors about mechanical physics, anatomy/ physiology , etc.

It is the quality of the art that is most important . I believe that too much emphasis is put on learning all this material without any true understanding of what is really going on. why ?? because most people think that to be a better martial artist that they have to have all these forms and all this rank to be good and to get the recognition that they want. Bull Sh** it is all about their ego.

The stuff about the forms....sparring techniques all together are a form, the short forms all together are one form, the breathing and meditation classes are considered a form, all the self defense/ chin na are considered a form..at least this is what I was taught coming up through the system. So you can see that what is considered a form is subjective. As well as the fact that many forms are found in many systems , preying mantis for example, this could be how the total number of forms exceeds 900+.

But a question that I have and no one has ever offered any explanation is..... how come James Holiday wrote in an article about shaolin do back in the 80'S that it stated that Su Kong was a master of only 300+ forms? And yes I understand that 900+ is more than 300+ but why does it make such a drastic increase in the number of forms... seeing as the art supposedly only came from Su Kong through Ie Chang Ming to Master Sin?

Did Ie Chang Ming add forms from other Shaolin masters .Did he make up his own??Did Master Sin do the the same?? chiang su liang su( spear fighting techniques) is of master sin's creation. I know for a fact that many of the forms were created by him.

[ricardocameron]

Did Ie Chang Ming add forms from other Shaolin masters .Did he make up his own??Did Master Sin do the the same?? chiang su liang su( spear fighting techniques) is of master sin's creation. I know for a fact that many of the forms were created by him.

That's what I heard,( or read somewhere), that GM Ie traveled China picking up other forms and leftover Shaol-lin teachings...

[Golden Tiger]

how come James Holiday wrote in an article about shaolin do back in the 80'S that it stated that Su Kong was a master of only 300+ forms?

Welcome back TTM, haven't seen you around in a while. Perhaps you will have to ask Master Halladay (not Holiday). I think as another stated, that forms were added as well as systems along the way, some by Master Ie and some by Master Sin.

I know for a fact that many of the forms were created by him.


Really? which ones?

As well as the lack of understanding by the instructors about mechanical physics, anatomy/ physiology , etc.

While I am not up on my theoretical physics nor do I have a Ph.D in Kinesiology, I would dare to say that most of us instructors know quite a bit.

[Judge Pen]

That's what I heard,( or read somewhere), that GM Ie traveled China picking up other forms and leftover Shaol-lin teachings...

That argument is made because of some language in a letter from Ie to GM Sin The where he states he traveled all over China and Korea learning martial arts (or words to that effect) prior to migrating to Indonesia.

[ricardocameron]

That argument is made because of some language in a letter from Ie to GM Sin The where he states he traveled all over China and Korea learning martial arts (or words to that effect) prior to migrating to Indonesia.

Thanks. That's where i saw it, I remember that letter, now.

[humbleman]

I am Sgt. Lee Tao of the US Marine Force on Monitoring and Peace Keeping Mission in Baghdad-Iraq.
We were alerted on the sudden presence of some Terrorists camping in a suburb not too far from Karbala here in Iraq. After immediate intervention, we captured three (3) of the terrorists, twenty six (26) were killed leaving seven (7) injured.
In the process of torture they confessed being rebels for the late Ayman Al-Zawahiri and took us to a cave in Karbala which served as their camp.
Here we recovered several guns, bombs, and other ammunitions including some boxes among which two contains nuclear weapons, one filled with hard drugs and the other four to my amazement contain some US dollars amounting to $25M after I and two of my intelligent officers counted them.
I however intructed to keep this in high secrecy.
I am in need of a "Reliable and Trustworthy" person like you who would recieve, secure and protect these boxes containing the US dollars for me upon till my assignment elapses here in Iraq.
I assure and promise to give you 20% of this fund.
Please assure me of your keeping this topmost secret to protect my job with the US Monitoring-And-Peace-Keeping-Mission.

Sincere Regards,
Sgt. Chung Lee Tao

[Radhnoti]

It's also been stated that the guy that painted the paintings, who knew his family's bird style, had his style incorporated into SD. A small portion of it is taught to every student at blue belt, and I believe Hiang chose to focus on it.

[humbleman]

There are also three birds taught at second brown. It seems I remember there was supposed to be an early type of pau-qua that was inside of at least one of these forms. I have also heard insinuations that there is a rarely taught form of "linear pau-qua" taught somewhere in Kentucky. Come to think of it, I actually did read an article in one of the kung-fu magazines (hopefully this one!!) about a woman in Kentucky who knew this style. I don't know if she was Shaolin-Do or not, but given the location, it's a good guess. It looked like a hard type of Pau-qua. She surely looked like she knew her business.

[humbleman]

jokingly referred to the blue belt level bird form as "the early bird", being as you had to reach way back in your memory by the time you got to brown to remember it. I also remember that one of the most difficult things about learning the bird forms was telling them apart. They seemed quite similar to each other, but were really completely different. They were swift and graceful, but still packed a wallop.

[The Xia]

I hear all this talk about people practicing Bagua, Hsing Yi, Hung Gar, etc in Shaolin Do. I don't believe that all these styles are present within it.

[kungfujunky]

you start to lear pa kua at first black (i myself have seen 4 differnet ..no 5 different pa kua forms. dragon is by faR my favorite)

hsing yi is second black and above and hung gar (tiger crane) you can see at second black or above but i dont remember when you test over it

[The Xia]

but ..is it possible that the five elders lineage could have been from a lesser known temple in the area of fujian/ fukien that may have been associated with Sil lum?

and that because the workings of the actual Shaolin temple were done in secret that this is why the legend of Su Kong is not known?

and /or that the five elders story was made up just to make claims that they were Shaolin /Sil lum to add credabilty ??

or that maybe just because the five elders were known to be shaolin and because of there geographical location they were associated with Sil lum??
Your conspiracy theory about the Su Kong story being a Shaolin secret is really pulling for strings.
It comes down to this... Is Shaolin Do A real Shaolin Art or is it just borrowing a name to add legitamacy to what they teach?
If Shaolin Do were the real teachings of the southern Shaolin Temple wouldn't the Honan Shaolin Temple be affiliated with them? Wouldn't Shaolin Do be celebrated by the entire Chinese martial arts community?
If anyone who knows anything about CMA and Shaolin would easily be able to tell from the actual forms that it is shaolin.
A bunch of people who do know alot about Chinese martial arts have said just the opposite...

[lunghushan]

Most of the histories of the supposed '5 elders' was from an earlier Shaolin temple, not the supposed second temple like in the Wanham version of the histories. This supposedly was burned in like 1647.

Then there is another one that lists another Shaolin temple in 1723 or something.

Then another one in 1849 or something.

In various versions of the stories Pak Mei is there in all of them. With different '5 elders'. So it stands to reason that the histories are all messed up.

So this is all kindof useless. Why does it matter? It's hard to believe this thread has lasted so long. Why does anybody care?

[Radhnoti]

humbleman, that article about "linear bagua"...I'm 90% certain was from the Ng family organization. The later "shaolin birds" taught in brown aren't part of the Tai Peng bird style. If you look at Hiang's site there are 18 Tai Peng's he teaches, it's interesting SD still teaches "Tai Pang Sin Kune/Big Bird Spreads its Wings" at blue belt, it's supposed to be 1/3 of the full form.

The Xia - "If Shaolin Do were the real teachings of the southern Shaolin Temple wouldn't the Honan Shaolin Temple be affiliated with them? Wouldn't Shaolin Do be celebrated by the entire Chinese martial arts community?"

It's the contention of SD, and many other styles claiming shaolin heritage, that the communist Chinese run Shaolin AND they've stripped most the martial intent from what goes on there. In that light, "official shaolin certification" probably counts for very little if you ask most in SD. On the other hand, SD schools HAVE paid to have the giant markers installed on the temple grounds...north and south, so what do I know? :D

The Xia - "I hear all this talk about people practicing Bagua, Hsing Yi, Hung Gar, etc in Shaolin Do. I don't believe that all these styles are present within it."

You are aware that many kuntao styles, claim to teach Hsing Yi, Bagua, Tai Chi and animal styles? I don't think they (or SD) claim to teach those styles with the depth a school focusing on "just" one style do...

[humbleman]

Radhnoti. That was interesting. As far as Shaolin temple in China goes, I see them treading a tightwire trying to preserve the historic value of the temples themselves. That considered, one can hardly blame them for making the necessary concessions to their government. Better than having the temples closed. From my observations, oppressors of any stripe don't wat the oppressed to learn how to protect themselves and their families. Hopefully, one might say that the temples even being open, despite the commercialization, is a sign of progress from the bad old days of the cultural revolution. I read an article by a young German student who went to Shaolin to study before it was safe to do so. He said that there were many very serious schools around Shaolin, that it was sort of a "Kung Fu Ghetto." Disputes between schools were settled with fists and feet. You only got taught by the Masters in Shaolin if you were referred by one of the Masters outside the gate. The discipline was ferocious. Lapses were dealt with by slaps or worse. He said most western "martial artists" wouldn't hack.

[humbleman]

his name was Jason Bourne. (JUST KIDDING!!!:D ) About the Bourne part. The article by the young German lad was real.

[Baqualin]

I hear all this talk about people practicing Bagua, Hsing Yi, Hung Gar, etc in Shaolin Do. I don't believe that all these styles are present within it.

Students in SD can study only the internal side Tai Chi, Baqua, and Hsing I including weapons....rank is in sashes.:D

[Baqualin]

you start to lear pa kua at first black (i myself have seen 4 differnet ..no 5 different pa kua forms. dragon is by faR my favorite)

hsing yi is second black and above and hung gar (tiger crane) you can see at second black or above but i dont remember when you test over it

7 Baqua forms including weapons......Hsing I is taught as a complete system including weapons and is also second black in the SD internal.

[Learn]

Sin The can appropriately call himself the grandmaster of Shaolin Do. It is his system after all. But to call himself grandmaster of the Shaolin arts is patently ridiculous. Shaolin constitutes numerous systems/approaches/styles. The historical records are so nebulous and full of fantasy that it is impossible to say definitively what "Shaolin" really is. I would proffer that anyone who has studied martial arts for any length of time, regardless of style or system, realizes that the nuances and subtleties of a particular style are incredibly important. It's the difference between learning a technique in a magazine and seeing a highly skilled practioner apply it on you at a seminar. I've been through that with Japanese, Chinese, Filipino, Indonesian, and American styles. What troubles me about SD, although I found it at the right time in my life for what it offered, is that is purports to offer mastery in so many different disciplines. That is just flat out unrealistic. You are not going to master the nuances of all the animals, ba gua, tai ji, hsing i. Reality check, aint' gonna happen. It's enticing, but there aren't enough hours in the day. Ok, I'll play devil's advocate. SD is about giving you an introduction so you can pick a specialty. Who from? Your teacher? He will not have mastered all the styles. So you go outside your school. Ok, but then SD is just a segue into another school. I don't think that is how they market it. I could give a few examples, but suffice to say in each case, when I pursued what I learned in SD at a dedicated school, what I learned in SD was the equivalent of a lunchtime overview seminar.

Again, I do not disparage those who follow the path. I did so myself. If SD improves your life, that is good. I am happy to discuss the philosophical aspects however.

[Baqualin]

Sin The can appropriately call himself the grandmaster of Shaolin Do. It is his system after all. But to call himself grandmaster of the Shaolin arts is patently ridiculous. Shaolin constitutes numerous systems/approaches/styles. The historical records are so nebulous and full of fantasy that it is impossible to say definitively what "Shaolin" really is. I would proffer that anyone who has studied martial arts for any length of time, regardless of style or system, realizes that the nuances and subtleties of a particular style are incredibly important. It's the difference between learning a technique in a magazine and seeing a highly skilled practioner apply it on you at a seminar. I've been through that with Japanese, Chinese, Filipino, Indonesian, and American styles. What troubles me about SD, although I found it at the right time in my life for what it offered, is that is purports to offer mastery in so many different disciplines. That is just flat out unrealistic. You are not going to master the nuances of all the animals, ba gua, tai ji, hsing i. Reality check, aint' gonna happen. It's enticing, but there aren't enough hours in the day. Ok, I'll play devil's advocate. SD is about giving you an introduction so you can pick a specialty. Who from? Your teacher? He will not have mastered all the styles. So you go outside your school. Ok, but then SD is just a segue into another school. I don't think that is how they market it. I could give a few examples, but suffice to say in each case, when I pursued what I learned in SD at a dedicated school, what I learned in SD was the equivalent of a lunchtime overview seminar.

Again, I do not disparage those who follow the path. I did so myself. If SD improves your life, that is good. I am happy to discuss the philosophical aspects however.

Learn, I've always had a facination with the filipino arts of stick & knife fighting, I feel it's very practical on the street and would like to study it someday.
One thing I notice about a lot of people on here is how they rag us for all the material in SD (yes it is to much to MASTER in american society as a whole), but they seem to be experts on every style you could imagine....you have studied alot of styles including ours.....are you a master of all or even one yet. I don't think you claim that...just pointing things out. SD is not for everybody...no particular style is. Yes we make alot of claims....but isn't mastery of a style ones own path....I know of no Master or Grand Master who did not study under more than one teacher. Sometimes in SD students can't see the forest for the trees...we do have alot of upper level Masters who specialize in a particular style.....they may not be in the same school, but the're in the system and I see more of this as the years go by. Yes, some have studied elsewhere......some before SD...some while in SD, and some have left and come back....is that not the Shaolin Way.

[Baqualin]

I could give a few examples, but suffice to say in each case, when I pursued what I learned in SD at a dedicated school, what I learned in SD was the equivalent of a lunchtime overview seminar.


Was your teacher a Master? East or West?

[godzillakungfu]

Students in SD can study only the internal side Tai Chi, Baqua, and Hsing I including weapons....rank is in sashes.:D
East and San Jose are set up like this, the rest of the West coast is not.

[godzillakungfu]

7 Baqua forms including weapons......Hsing I is taught as a complete system including weapons and is also second black in the SD internal.Not complete as of yet. Hsing I Sword just came out recently. There are forms present in all systems(that I've researched) that are missing in SD Hsing-I.

So Far.:D

[Baqualin]

Not complete as of yet. Hsing I Sword just came out recently. There are forms present in all systems(that I've researched) that are missing in SD Hsing-I.

So Far.:D

Don't forget Hsing I Staff.:D

[Baqualin]

Not complete as of yet. Hsing I Sword just came out recently. There are forms present in all systems(that I've researched) that are missing in SD Hsing-I.

So Far.:D

I should have said the most complete GMS has taught to date ( Baqua would be 2nd) in the internal side....I'm sure there will always be systems that have forms we don't and vice versa.:)

[Baqualin]

The Xia don't worry if their bagwa is anything like what I learned in CMD then it is not real and actually can do damage to your body because it is practiced so incorrectly.

As far as the linear bagwa, isn't it a coincidenc that there was an article about linear bagwa in a kung fu magazine recently? Gee maybe we can buy the DVD or book and learn the moves and say we teach linear bagwa!!

It is one thing to learn a move but another to understand the concepts and principles behind it.

When you slam us please do your research & read previous post.....GSM hasn't taught linear Baqua "YET". The First Baqua form taught in SD can be traced back to Chiang Jung-Ch'iao a student of Chang Chao-Tung, who was a direct student of Tung Hai-Ch'uan. We're taught the 64 rules...breathing patterns....applications....training sets....fighting techniques, and proper biomechanics. You are right, if not done properly Baqua or any internal form can tear your body down....if done properly it will strengthen bones, joints and muscles. I have torn up knees (from the external side) and a bad lower back, yet I can still hold my own with the younger guys.....my knees and back rarely bother me anymore and I attribute that to 28 years of practicing Baqua. we teach alot of Seniors in our internal classes and you better teach them correct postures and movements or they will drop like flies.

[tattooedmonk]

Welcome back TTM, haven't seen you around in a while. Perhaps you will have to ask Master Halladay (not Holiday). I think as another stated, that forms were added as well as systems along the way, some by Master Ie and some by Master Sin.




Really? which ones?



While I am not up on my theoretical physics nor do I have a Ph.D in Kinesiology, I would dare to say that most of us instructors know quite a bit.thanx..

yeah I messed that up thanx for the correction ...

I figured most of this out along the way( my own investigations and common sense)..but for some reason DS & SS seemed to not reveal certain information or did not know certain things that I asked about or had some pretty questionable answers along the way

chiang su liang su ( spear fighting techniques) story goes( as per DS & SS )that master sin created it for his 3rd black test.

. you do not need a degree..... but having the knowledge is helpful..... many instructors do know a great deal in these areas ...many do not

[tattooedmonk]

I hear all this talk about people practicing Bagua, Hsing Yi, Hung Gar, etc in Shaolin Do. I don't believe that all these styles are present within it.maybe if you studied the art up close instead of judge from afar you would see and believe....

[tattooedmonk]

Your conspiracy theory about the Su Kong story being a Shaolin secret is really pulling for strings.

If Shaolin Do were the real teachings of the southern Shaolin Temple wouldn't the Honan Shaolin Temple be affiliated with them? Wouldn't Shaolin Do be celebrated by the entire Chinese martial arts community?

A bunch of people who do know alot about Chinese martial arts have said just the opposite... did I say conspiracy?? for all we really know it was created as a tool to teach the art to Sin The ( and others).....( who cares ??).

Shaolin Do is a collection from all the Shaolin Temples not just the southern temple.....there are tablets at both temples to celebrate Shaolin Do's connections to the temple...

many people, because of the vitually unknown history and because of the chinese peoples way of saving face, do not want to believe or accept Shaolin Do as being the real deal because if they did.... they would have to admit that what they know and promote is just a small portion of what shaolin really is and consequently would lose face

and the reason this is because of the outward appearence of the art and the virtually unknown history/ lineage..

.....like I have said before it is not the forms that are in question it is the way that they are taught, practiced ,and performed

do you not realize how much this affects the human psyche?

you are so use to knowing a certain history, seeing it performed a certain way, and in a certain uniform that you can not get passed it mentally to look at the Shaolin Do with from an unbiased perspective and see it for what it truely is ...

and that is The Way of Shaolin......

[The Willow Sword]

SD's bagua is a very watered down form of Emei style bagua. im my opinion it was prolly taken from a book or from an old video that is no longer around from a bagua master that is no longer around. The Hsing I that SD Teaches would be as close to something SOLID there than anything else they profess to have mastered. But Hsing-i is such a common Style and VERY EASY to copy that ANYONE could take it from other source and make it their own.

you know i have a video tape of the Snake bagua that was taught out by GMS and i gotta tell ya. it is so rigid and karate'esque and done as rigid and as karate'esque as it looks. there is no flow to the movements at all. very choppy indeed and not indicitive of what bagua really is. I have seen some authentic snake bagua and i gotta tell ya what SD teaches is something else.

And i agree with Maxwang about doing the bagua incorrectly and it damaging you.

and dont even get me started with the tablet at the temple, ANYONE with enough MONEY and influence can get a tablet erected there at the temple and that is what the soards paid for to honor GMT. That tabelt wasnt put up by the temple on their own.

anyway since the discussion turned to the internal side of the SD curriculum, i thought i would chime in with my impressions of it since i spent a good # of years doing it there.

i would say that SD has very watered down versions of all three internal systems. when i started to branch out and saw some of the TCMA schools that taught out taichi and bagua i realized that the sd method is very mediocre at best. with exception to the Hsing-I there (which i enjoyed doing while i was there) everything else in the internal curriculumn is crap, in my opinion. Now the CSC run by the Soards have a different version of the tai chi styles and i noticed it right off the bat when i trained with them for a short period of time in New Mexico(seminar). again an inconsistancy of the schools to have so many different versions of everything that you cannot go to one sd school and see the same thing.
now the only other form there at Sd that i actually liked aside from the hsing yi was the "buddha fist form". dont know where they got it from but i will admit it is a decent form to learn.

hehe just go to SD and learn the hsing i and the buddha fist form and then leave and you will have the best that they can Truely offer you. :D
TWS

[Baqualin]

SD's bagua is a very watered down form of Emei style bagua. im my opinion it was prolly taken from a book or from an old video that is no longer around from a bagua master that is no longer around. The Hsing I that SD Teaches would be as close to something SOLID there than anything else they profess to have mastered. But Hsing-i is such a common Style and VERY EASY to copy that ANYONE could take it from other source and make it their own.

you know i have a video tape of the Snake bagua that was taught out by GMS and i gotta tell ya. it is so rigid and karate'esque and done as rigid and as karate'esque as it looks. there is no flow to the movements at all. very choppy indeed and not indicitive of what bagua really is. I have seen some authentic snake bagua and i gotta tell ya what SD teaches is something else.

And i agree with Maxwang about doing the bagua incorrectly and it damaging you.

and dont even get me started with the tablet at the temple, ANYONE with enough MONEY and influence can get a tablet erected there at the temple and that is what the soards paid for to honor GMT. That tabelt wasnt put up by the temple on their own.

anyway since the discussion turned to the internal side of the SD curriculum, i thought i would chime in with my impressions of it since i spent a good # of years doing it there.

i would say that SD has very watered down versions of all three internal systems. when i started to branch out and saw some of the TCMA schools that taught out taichi and bagua i realized that the sd method is very mediocre at best. with exception to the Hsing-I there (which i enjoyed doing while i was there) everything else in the internal curriculumn is crap, in my opinion. Now the CSC run by the Soards have a different version of the tai chi styles and i noticed it right off the bat when i trained with them for a short period of time in New Mexico(seminar). again an inconsistancy of the schools to have so many different versions of everything that you cannot go to one sd school and see the same thing.
now the only other form there at Sd that i actually liked aside from the hsing yi was the "buddha fist form". dont know where they got it from but i will admit it is a decent form to learn.

hehe just go to SD and learn the hsing i and the buddha fist form and then leave and you will have the best that they can Truely offer you. :D
TWS
Hey Willow,
As I stated above...The First Baqua form taught in SD can be traced back to Chiang Jung-Ch'iao a student of Chang Chao-Tung, who was a direct student of Tung Hai-Ch'uan. We're taught the 64 rules...breathing patterns....applications....training sets....fighting techniques, and proper biomechanics. It is not a watered down version of an Emei form...it's move for move Chiang's form, research it, he called it his original form it's a very common form. If you have ever seen some of Bok Nam Park's forms, he has some that are very close to our Snake Baqua (if done correctly Snake is strictly for training fa-jing). If you had learned it I think you would still love it....... it's very powerful & a heck of a work out. Is your tape GSM or somebody trying to do Snake? Once again I'm sorry for your experiences with SD...it's not like that here, I don't know how you were taught, but apparently you missed alot. The forms from books thing is getting a little old...I know GSM as well as anybody and if you've seen what I've seen you would realize he's the real deal. Anyway good luck with your internal and thanks for the kind words about Hsing I & Budda Fist.:D

[Baqualin]

TWS
I have seen some authentic snake bagua and i gotta tell ya what SD teaches is something else.

Do you realize how many different Snake Baqua forms are out there?
By the way your Best Baqua video ever was awesome!;)

[godzillakungfu]

thanx..
chiang su liang su ( spear fighting techniques) story goes( as per DS & SS )that master sin created it for his 3rd black test.
There are 2 for sure and maybe a third that Were said to be created by GMT.

Not saying anything since all forms were created by someone. Just that it was said by the heads of the West.

[The Xia]

Look, there are individuals that dedicate their entire lives to mastering just one of the arts you claim is present in Shaolin Do. Are there people who have mastered more then one style? Of course. But you can't just take 2 hour long classes for 3 days a week for 5 years and be masters of Hung Gar, Bagua, Hsing Yi, Tai Chi, Hua Chuan (when you say "Hua", I'm assuming you mean Hua Chuan). It's ridiculous. Where is the proof that these styles are truelly present within Shaolin Do? Sure, you may have some forms, but are they done right? Do you have any videos of Shaolin Doka doing Hung Gar forms at the same level of quality as someone like Lau Kar Leung?

[Learn]

Baqualin, yes Kali is a fantastic and very real world oriented art. But like CMA, there are many ****xxng contests about which approach is the best. I have studied many arts, but I would not say that I have mastered any one of them. I have found some more realistic than others. The problem I have with SD is that it says if you study SD, you will learn animals, tai ji, ba gua, hsing i, weapons, etc. etc. I followed the path for awhle and learned alot, but it realy is not possible to learn the nuances of all those different arts in one lifetime. You may learn quite alot in SD, but the marketing falls short of reality, and I have ethical concerns with that. It may well have to do with how martial arts were marketed in the seventies, and Sin The did not progress beyond that. It may be a cultural thing. But if you step back and ask, will my teacher be able to teach me mastery of the animals and all the internal arts, I think you will find your answer. At one point, I wished it so, but reality has taught me otherwise.

[The Xia]

BTW Xia what proof would you like ?

I already said

Do you have any videos of Shaolin Doka doing Hung Gar forms at the same level of quality as someone like Lau Kar Leung?

[lunghushan]

I'm not gonna believe in SD's story until they provide video documentary and proof of the training of every grandmaster all the way back past the hairy guy to movies showing his grandmasters training at Shaolin.

And then they'll also have to provide documentary showing all the forms of their system, how they fit in with other Chinese forms, and why they're superior than other Chinese systems.

And all their fighters start winning UFCs and Pride on a regular basis.

Then, maybe then, I'll buy their stories.

;)

[godzillakungfu]

I know Hung Gardokas that don't move like LKL.

Sorry, that just is a poor comparison. I think you left out an important word.

Anyway, I saw one of his top American students, in a video, on another website. The guy moved well but, he was nowhere near LKL's level.

So, does that invalidate Hung Gar as a whole? No.

[BigZib]

The animal and mastering of an art is not found by going to a class. It is found through hardship and training. I feel those of you who look for a master of an art have unrealistic expectations and to say a form is not "right " is nonsense. As far as TWS is concerned I wish he would find the peace he deserves but here he just tries to get some to bite it has all been said too many times. So drop it and kick the dust off your sandals and go to the next town. BTW Xia what proof would you like ? KC

now this is the truth and thats all i can say

[The Xia]

I know Hung Gardokas that don't move like LKL.

Sorry, that just is a poor comparison. I think you left out an important word.

Anyway, I saw one of his top American students, in a video, on another website. The guy moved well but, he was nowhere near LKL's level.

So, does that invalidate Hung Gar as a whole? No.
Your arguement doesn't work. Sure, of course not all Hung Gar practioners are as skilled as masters like Lau Kar Leung. However, many are skilled and all who have what it takes and study under a good Sifu can become like Lau Kar Leung.
Where are the Shaolin Doka who's Hung Gar forms can match that of great Hung Gar masters?

As for "Hung Gar Doka", that's just not funny. Shaolin Doka makes sense because Do is a Japanese word.

[The Willow Sword]

The First Baqua form taught in SD can be traced back to Chiang Jung-Ch'iao a student of Chang Chao-Tung, who was a direct student of Tung Hai-Ch'uan.

ok so now tell me how chang chao-tung or whomever was a student of his who came to the southern shaolin temple to teach this to the alleged "Su Kong" and then to Ie chang ming?

see the trouble with tracing anything that SD claims as their own pure transmission of the pure and true shaolin is very sketchy at best and it keeps on being debated here with the holes in this particular history being filled with,,,,,,,well its being filled with something and i can tell ya it isnt sweet smelling.

bagualin i can respect your fondness for what you are learning, but when you begin to see the light like i did(with the help of good people willing to enlighten me to some things) then you will be opened up to a whole new world that isnt so boxed in like the SD mindset apparently is. of course my contention has always been that if you misrepresent yourself and ride the coattail of something else to further your own schemes then it doesnt matter How good your system is or how well you are as a martial artist in the eyes of that community. I had to find that out the very hard way when branching out to teach what i thought was something solid and good and being shunned away, disrespected and laughed at directly in my face when i mentioned those two infamous words, Shaolin-Do.

most of you may not be able to really understand how something like that feels, especially when YOU are trying to start a career and a buisness of your own, but when it hits you it hits you hard. I never wanted to be an elitest and be so contained within SD despite the "most comprehensive MA in the world" claims.
it seems as though the rest of the TCMA community has a respect for one another regardless of maybe a few sketchy instances of rivalry.

Kwaichang speaks of the "peace that i deserve". but what about the solidarity and the freedom i attained when i finally left the school? i can take some consolation that i attained some peace out of the deal but still working through the difficulties of feeling swindled shafted and pretty much let down by my teacher and others whom i thought were good friends. in the end you only have yourself to look after, and i made the mistake of depending on a community of people whom i thought shared that sense of honor integrity and community and who supported their students/disciples/instructors etc etc, when i supported THEM and was LOYAL to them and did everything that was required of me and THEN SOME. This may have been prevalent in other Sd schools but surely not at the austin school. it seemed like we were only furthering the austin school's teacher's future rather than our own as a whole. as long as the money flowed and the students kept coming, everything was all hunkey Dorey. Now some may disagree with what i am saying but this is how i experienced things first hand at SD.
I gained the respect of alot of people at that school, people i taught and helped through their tough times physically, so it hurt to leave when i did.
sometimes i run into old students from there who recognize me and say "you know i really enjoyed your classes, you helped me out a great deal". That is the PEACE and the Solidarity that i deserve which, in my book, is better than any aknowledgement from any higher up elder in the system.
im sharing this with you all to really give you an insight as to what really goes on in schools like SD that make all these claims but cannot really back them, schools like this who seemingly brainwash good people in to thinking that they are getting some rare thing when all it is is watered down garbage, and when those loyal followers try to stand up for what they are learning and challenge others who may discount what they are learning and get NO support from their school. Schools like this one that permeate with favoritism and nepotism and look highly upon some and look down on others. Did i wish to be put on a pedestal at the school? absolutely not. did i wish to be or felt like i was the best fighter at the school? absolutely not. did i feel like i was the best teacher at sd and wished to subvert my teacher? ABSOLUTELY NOT, despite what some may think.

it is a long process