Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[The Willow Sword]

are you telling me his level of commitment training and hours is at a brown belt level even though he might be of higher rank? What business is that of yours ??


No that is not what i am saying TTM. I just KNOW ninthdrunk, ive trained with him AND i have taught him in the past. He is a good kid and i dont question his level of committment and dedication to training. i may not be a part of SD and i may not endorse the school or do their forms anymore but there are SOME within the organization that i respect regardless. Ninthdrunk is one of those people. I think that if you met him you would see his progress as a martial artist and if you crossed hands with him you'd be up against a brick wall. As to his rank? i would imagine that he is 3rd degree BB by now,but i could be wrong. HEY i could also be wrong in that i KNOW ninthdrunk,LOL. Im pretty sure i know who he is, now i am not so sure:( . its been a while since i have conversed with him.

anyway TTM, your writings dont read very "masterfull" you seem to have more of an ego than a "shaolin mindset":rolleyes:

As ever,TWS

[The Willow Sword]

I'll be the first to admit that KC can come off as a bit abrupt from his posts, but I know the guy and let me say this about him: kung fu is a way of life for him, and he knows his stuff better than most here (myself included). You would be well advised to listen to him when he talks about training principles. You might learn a thing or two.

Oh brother:rolleyes:


:p :D TWS

[CaptinPickAxe]

Don't listen to Judge Pen...he's really KKM;)

[BlueTravesty]

then you are a hobbiest , you practice martial arts for recreation ,rather than to be a true martialartist..and this is cool ...more power to you !! what is your belt rank??

Indeed I am; by circumstance, not by choice. I think I was born a couple hundred years too late to become a "real" career martial artist, but then there's always NHB fighting (which I'm just not ready for.)
Besides what would the wife say if I told her "hey honey, I'm gonna go make a living with my fists and feet!"?

As for my rank, I'm a lowly gold belt, which is the 3rd belt in our system (I count white, since we have to test for it.)
Here's hoping I can make the next rank test... should be a couple of months coming. I don't really care about the color of a sash, but I DO want to learn Chung Kuen... that form looks fun.

[BM2]

And if you have trained as long and dillgently as you claim, you would have learned by now that belt rank is meaningless.[/QUOTE]

:p ;)

[Ralphie]

TTM seems like he lives in lala land, and is delusional at the very least. Hell, he said that he patterned his life after the Kung Fu character portrayed by David Caradine. Why respect anything he says, including his classifications and his Taoist, Buddhist, and Confuscionist philiosophies (not religion)?

[kwaichang]

Well TWS I guess you dont agree with Judge Pen, let me see how many years has it been since we have seen each other 5-6. ? Well what ever your opinion you may have it but as always I am willing to give you a match when ever you like. As far as what JP wrote he flatters me, as I know what I think and how I feel but he and I have not really talked about my way of life that much, that is his own opinion but I thank him for it. I also would like to apologize to the others if I seem abrupt I try not to be but as we all have different opinions we should be allowed to express them freely w/o reprimand. KC

[godzillakungfu]

Well.....There's a lot of people that could train 16 hours a day and it wouldn't do any good. Then there are a few that could go for a half hour and get all they need.

There's a commercial out there showing Tiger Woods hitting golf balls in the rain.....When I first saw this I thought about Bobby Jones. He would be laughing at this commercial. Jones (possibly the best golfer who ever lived) only played on weekends.
Yes, a commercial.:rolleyes:

[BoulderDawg]

Yep! Believe it or not some us do watch TV....and are not afraid to admit it.

And even a few of us actually work for a living....Really!:D

I've tried the up at 5, go to bed at midnight routine once or twice........I'll leave that up to the people who enjoy only getting 5 hours of sleep a night!

[ninthdrunk]

Just for the record, I'm a second...should have been coming up on my test for fourth by the "time limit" standards, but I like to take my time, and heck, life gets in the way a lot when your young and searching for you path. I've been doing this system for 10 years now. I should have tested up a while ago, but that just wasn't my thing for awhile...that and I was young and put it off for other things. Truth of the matter, I'm better for having taken my time. Better understanding of material and whatnot.

TWS, oh, I assure you, you still know me. If anything, I'm a lot more grown up, but still the same lovable kid. Oh, and I still very much love putting people into the brick wall. Be it figuratively or literally! Oh, and thanks for the kind words. Respect might not mean a lot to some, but it does to me, and coming from you and given your situation, it's nice to know that there are still nice thoughts regardless of our martial arts decisions/situations.

TTM, I'm curious as to why you would think that I'm only a brown belt.

KC, I agree that you're one of the most dedicated people I know. Everytime I've had the priviledge of sparring you, or being in a class with (or taught) by you, I've come away with nothing but utmost respect. While I'm not in Austin right now, I know your presence is sorely missed.

[The Willow Sword]

Oh lighten up KC, im just "takin the p!ss" as the britts say.;) I dont doubt your level of knowledge of what you study and practice now. I also know of your PT skills.
consider me a semi-friendly antagonist KC. I may not like you KC but i do respect you. or maybe i said i didnt in the past. well maybe i did. hell who knows i cant remember anymore. as for a match? well KC i dont do that anymore, besides, "if you are seeking tournament skills id advise you to look elsewhere for your training, most of what you will learn here is TOO deadly for tournaments".:rolleyes: anyway your elders prolly wouldnt support you in the challenge anyway. hehe or maybe they would make an exception in my case eh?;) at any rate KC i wouldnt want to waste your time and you certainly wouldnt want to end up in jail;) .

Toodle doo,,,TWS

[kwaichang]

I know ive been there . Thanks TWS I think. Anyway what is it called when one scores on another well you did IPPON KC:)

[tattooedmonk]

TTM, my way of life is not your way of life. If I have a very demanding job, household demands, family demands AND I find time in all of that to train something that I love and find dear (but only 8 to 10 hours physical) then am I JUST a hobbyist? Bullsh!t! It is still my way of life. Kung fu is a way of life for me. It is always milling around in my mind. I spend countless hours reading about it and comparing what I know to others. For someone who gets so caught up in the lack of teaching the philosophical underpinings of Taoism, Buddism and Confucinism you are so antagonistic and demending that YOUR way is the ONLY WAY. Try being less judgmental.

Flame me for my opinion all you want, but you bring much of this criticism on yourself.

And if you have trained as long and dillgently as you claim, you would have learned by now that belt rank is meaningless.I did not say that belt rank mattered, but a certain standard should be lived up to and a certain commitment should be made at certainbelt levels. it appears that this series of post has brought out a sore point in all of you. if you actually felt confident in your practices and the way that you lived your lives you would not be this defensive.

[tattooedmonk]

No that is not what i am saying TTM. I just KNOW ninthdrunk, ive trained with him AND i have taught him in the past. He is a good kid and i dont question his level of committment and dedication to training. i may not be a part of SD and i may not endorse the school or do their forms anymore but there are SOME within the organization that i respect regardless. Ninthdrunk is one of those people. I think that if you met him you would see his progress as a martial artist and if you crossed hands with him you'd be up against a brick wall. As to his rank? i would imagine that he is 3rd degree BB by now,but i could be wrong. HEY i could also be wrong in that i KNOW ninthdrunk,LOL. Im pretty sure i know who he is, now i am not so sure:( . its been a while since i have conversed with him.

anyway TTM, your writings dont read very "masterfull" you seem to have more of an ego than a "shaolin mindset":rolleyes:

As ever,TWSI could careless what his rank is what metter is his time and effort....this other crap I will not even bother with......well if you see it as ego then...that is your perception

[tattooedmonk]

Just for the record, I'm a second...should have been coming up on my test for fourth by the "time limit" standards, but I like to take my time, and heck, life gets in the way a lot when your young and searching for you path. I've been doing this system for 10 years now. I should have tested up a while ago, but that just wasn't my thing for awhile...that and I was young and put it off for other things. Truth of the matter, I'm better for having taken my time. Better understanding of material and whatnot.

TWS, oh, I assure you, you still know me. If anything, I'm a lot more grown up, but still the same lovable kid. Oh, and I still very much love putting people into the brick wall. Be it figuratively or literally! Oh, and thanks for the kind words. Respect might not mean a lot to some, but it does to me, and coming from you and given your situation, it's nice to know that there are still nice thoughts regardless of our martial arts decisions/situations.

TTM, I'm curious as to why you would think that I'm only a brown belt.

KC, I agree that you're one of the most dedicated people I know. Everytime I've had the priviledge of sparring you, or being in a class with (or taught) by you, I've come away with nothing but utmost respect. While I'm not in Austin right now, I know your presence is sorely missed.I do not care it was illuded to based on my proposed standards...

[tattooedmonk]

And if you have trained as long and dillgently as you claim, you would have learned by now that belt rank is meaningless.

:p ;)[/QUOTE]never said that rank mattered ..there just needs to be greater guidlines and standards

[tattooedmonk]

this is the exact reason why the people in the outside world do not accept ShaolinDo ...being shaolin and claiming temple lineage puts you up there on a higher level of expectation ....so do not blame me for your short comings ....

[kwaichang]

So, what are the standards you propose ? KC:)

[ninthdrunk]

TTM, actually you did ask what my rank was. After I offered up my training time, you said, "what are you about brown belt level??" TWS was just responding 'cause I was taking too long getting to it (Saturdays are looong kung fu days for me).

So, I was just wondering why you would think I was a brown belt based on my training time. Or was it something else?

[BentMonk]

Since when does the amount hours you spend training measure anything more than how much you train? It is NOT a measure of how "shaolin" you are. I spend roughly six hours a week training. As JP said, I have a very demanding life outside of the kwoon. The "shaolin" mindset is part of who I am as a person. IMO the "shaolin" mindset is more about being honest, having integrity, a respect for all life, and a respect for people from ALL walks of life. I may not spend all day training, but I bust my a$$ every minute that I am training. Ask anyone who has trained or crossed hands with me, and I'm sure they will tell you that I am as hard core dedicated as anyone else who doesn't get paid to train. I am also very certain that I am far from being the only person who trains hard despite limited training time, and a busy life. Peace, Love, and Happy Training to ALL. :D

[kungfujunky]

tatooed monk how are you any different then grandmaster lawrence day who took what knowledge shaolin do (chinese shaolin center) gave him and ran away to do his own thing?

you make a lot of claims and bold statements but in the end you took from this art and are now giving it to others...the way you THINK it should be done.

i dont see any real honor in that my man. i see someone who couldnt hack it the way it was set up and now all he does is bash others for how they live and train.

good job!

have fun with your training and for those in denver csc ill see you wednesday!

[brucereiter]

I may not spend all day training, but I bust my a$$ every minute that I am training.

i must agree with the above quote! with my training i have some days where i train 5 6 7 hours (a few times per month ...)

most days 1-2 hours of training time but on some days i might only take 10 minutes to train but the point is i use those 10 minutes wisley ... i think it is quality over quantity that is important and also having a consistant schedule you keep to so that you never go to many days with out rotating through all of your material. and this brings up another point their are some forms that are not very important to me so i may only do them once per week just for memory but their are others i value more and do every day and really dig deep to understand them i think this is upto each student.

martial arts should only be a part of your life! your family for example is more important ... balance is one lesson we learn in fighting right??? we can also apply it to life ...

[Royal Dragon]

So, not haveing read anything, have we decided if Shaolin Do is legit or not yet?

[brucereiter]

So, not haveing read anything, have we decided if Shaolin Do is legit or not yet?

Being in accordance with established or accepted patterns and standards is so subjective in the world of cma ....

shaolin do is for real is my answer to the original post.

what real is you can decide for your self.

[Golden Tiger]

this is the exact reason why the people in the outside world do not accept ShaolinDo ...being shaolin and claiming temple lineage puts you up there on a higher level of expectation ....so do not blame me for your short comings ....



I think that should be "our" short comings....:D remember where you come from TTM...

[CaptinPickAxe]

So, let me get this straight and correct me if I'm wrong.

TattooedMonk is an ex-shaolin-do'er who hates Shaolin-Do....but is teacing a derivative of it?

I'll reserve my comments on this subject until my question is answered.

I'm an Ex-Shaolin Do student. I wasn't happy with my training, but I'm beyond b*tching about if it's real or not. As far as I'm concerned, any "Shaolin Gong Fu" you learn in the states is watered down or completely fake. I think 90% of American's don't have the time to live the Monk lifestyle that Shaolin requires, there for they revise it to suit american standards. I'm not saying it's effective or not because there is no way to tell if I'll be able to defeat all Shaolin users.

What I do support is maybe augmenting Shaolin with some other styles to make it more potent. I'm in the mindset that mixing martial arts is what MA is all about. Why should one pigeon hole themselves into one style that claims to be complete, but leaves you wanting on some fronts. My aim is to become the most complete, well-rounded fighter I can be. That being said, I believe the only way to be such a fighter is to experience everything ALL martial arts have to offer. I don't mean take classes from all the arts, but form bonds and alliances with different styles as to learn from each other.

I hope y'all can agree. As for Shaolin do being real or not...the horse is dead...stop beating it!

[Flying-Monkey]

I vote that it is not for real. My vote is based on what they claim they are.

[tattooedmonk]

So, let me get this straight and correct me if I'm wrong.

TattooedMonk is an ex-shaolin-do'er who hates Shaolin-Do....but is teacing a derivative of it?

I'll reserve my comments on this subject until my question is answered.

I'm an Ex-Shaolin Do student. I wasn't happy with my training, but I'm beyond b*tching about if it's real or not. As far as I'm concerned, any "Shaolin Gong Fu" you learn in the states is watered down or completely fake. I think 90% of American's don't have the time to live the Monk lifestyle that Shaolin requires, there for they revise it to suit american standards. I'm not saying it's effective or not because there is no way to tell if I'll be able to defeat all Shaolin users.

What I do support is maybe augmenting Shaolin with some other styles to make it more potent. I'm in the mindset that mixing martial arts is what MA is all about. Why should one pigeon hole themselves into one style that claims to be complete, but leaves you wanting on some fronts. My aim is to become the most complete, well-rounded fighter I can be. That being said, I believe the only way to be such a fighter is to experience everything ALL martial arts have to offer. I don't mean take classes from all the arts, but form bonds and alliances with different styles as to learn from each other.

I hope y'all can agree. As for Shaolin do being real or not...the horse is dead...stop beating it!I am no longer affiliated ..and I do not hate SD..actually quite the opposite.I teach what I have learned over my 25year martialart career...but it is mostly shaolin ( from shaolin do and some nonshaolin do).Iam not claiming to be some grandmaster or make any reference to shaolin do.

anybody who knows anything about Shaolin, knows that it is a mixed martialart ..over the long history of Shaolin they invited martialartist from all overto different summits to share their martialarts skills .they took all the best techniques out of all the styles and made knew ones and made additional modifications to old ones.

the problem is that no matter what style you do in shaolin do it all looks the same ...like karate.. all the training methods are out dated and are ineffective in teaching a student / practitioner how to use the art for self defense purposes.

for the most part all the pieces of the puzzle are there ...but because we are americans it should be shown how to put it all together. but it is not. it is fragmented...the old ancient chinese secret heh??

my first instructor brought in instructors from other arts to supplement our training when we worked on down and ground training and chi na he brought in jujitsu and judo people, when we did kicking muay thai and tae kwon do , punching bxers and shoto kand ..stuuf like this ...

I do not undertsand why it is that Sd claims to be the way of shaolin but do not seem to follow this way of shaolin!! I believe you are correct in this view. if you did this one the csc half..you would get so busted...why??

[godzillakungfu]

No one knows the "true" way of Shaolin.

The way of shaolin is like the way of religion.

It is open to interpretation from any number of sources. You take what you need and live your life the way you want.

[kwaichang]

The Fox that chases 2 rabbits catches neither. How will you know if an art is effective if one is not dedicated to it 100%. The Shaolin Monks used the arts in life and death situations therefore they must work. It is the American way to look for the easy way. Try being totally dedicated to something and see where it takes you. IMO it is a copout to cross train like you are saying. Be dedicated to the Tao/Way and see what becomes of it. KC:)

[CaptinPickAxe]

The Fox that chases 2 rabbits catches neither. How will you know if an art is effective if one is not dedicated to it 100%. The Shaolin Monks used the arts in life and death situations therefore they must work. It is the American way to look for the easy way. Try being totally dedicated to something and see where it takes you. IMO it is a copout to cross train like you are saying. Be dedicated to the Tao/Way and see what becomes of it. KC:)

Get off your spiritual mumbo jumbo, tool.

I think it's a cop out to pigeon hole yourself into one art, and turn away what everything else has to offer. You're under entirely too much mysticism if you think that every art is complete or you think you'll get by with just one of the ranges. I am dedicated to what I do and, let me tell you, it's not an impossible task. You just have to have the discipline to focus until you are proficent in what you do. I don't see it as 3 seperate arts, I see it as the 1 art that works for me... MY art that I gained through trial and error.

If you are so closed minded to turn down lessons from other arts and add them to your repitior, then I feel sorry for you. You miss out on a lot.

But hey, do what you CAN do...

[unkokusai]

Get off your spiritual mumbo jumbo, tool.
...


LOL

Brilliant!


:D

[BentMonk]

It is foolish to turn away from knowledge of any kind. To assume that one has found the one true source for any type of knowledge, is to began sinking into deluded ignorance. There will always be some one, some where who has discovered something you did not. This fact does not make any one person better than another. It simply emphasizes the need for everyone to keep their minds open, and their egos under control. "The human mind once expanded, never regains it's original form." Peace.

[SDJerry]

It is foolish to turn away from knowledge of any kind.

I agree... evolution is nature's quality control. The strong move forward while the weak, who are unable to adapt to change, get left behind. MA should be no different... it should be a living art. I think some people spend too much time trying to replicate a time that has already past. Look at all the great information that is at our fingertips now with the internet, books, and the ability to travel all over the world.

I study Shaolin-Do and I'm proud to say it. At my school there are no politics, no mystical BS, it stinks like sweat, and a lot of hard work goes on there. We openly discuss techniques and application on a regular basis and do not shy away ANY knowledge. It's a great school!

[brucereiter]

I agree... evolution is nature's quality control. The strong move forward while the weak, who are unable to adapt to change, get left behind. MA should be no different... it should be a living art. I think some people spend too much time trying to replicate a time that has already past.


hello all,

i like the above statements ... it reminds me of a few things from the book secrets from the temple. (i know ... dont start ... just take it for what it is ...)


page 23
"shaolin do is the dynamic art form which evolved from a 1500 year tradition"

"shaolin do seeks to preserve the essence of an ancient art while maintaining the original idea: to defend ones self in a efficient and effective manner"

[kwaichang]

Well OK Pick then you can hire a General Surgeon to do your Brain Surgery and let the Neuro Surgeons just watch as they scramble your brain to mush. I never said I did not cross train " in the Past" but I feel to do something as well as possible takes total dedication. I tell ya what why dont you grapple for a year or two then try kicking against a good Tae Kwon Do guy your kicks will be ****zen. Wake up and do what you want. I dont care I was there when I was young too. KC

[BoulderDawg]

I agree... evolution is nature's quality control. The strong move forward while the weak, who are unable to adapt to change, get left behind. MA should be no different... it should be a living art. I think some people spend too much time trying to replicate a time that has already past. Look at all the great information that is at our fingertips now with the internet, books, and the ability to travel all over the world.

I study Shaolin-Do and I'm proud to say it. At my school there are no politics, no mystical BS, it stinks like sweat, and a lot of hard work goes on there. We openly discuss techniques and application on a regular basis and do not shy away ANY knowledge. It's a great school!

Good Post!

Look at old movies from 70-80 years ago of people playing golf, tennis, boxing....whatever. Does it look like the same activity as today? No. And the same is true in the martial arts. We are constanly changing and evolving.

I mean don't you think that if the old masters had access to things like video tape, internet, whatever a 1,000 years ago they would have used it?

[unkokusai]

Good Post!

Look at old movies from 70-80 years ago of people playing golf, tennis, boxing....whatever. Does it look like the same activity as today?

Holy crap! Is this KOTF?

[humbleman]

This thread is corny. I hope it will be deleted soon.a tale of a fateful trip... Captain Bly and Gilligan + various assorted castaways. (wasn't there a band by that name?...) Anyway, Gilligan became disgruntled as Captain Bly refused to teach Gilligan what he needed to know to become a crusty old salt. As is the habit of many crusty old salts who feel that "I got mine, ***** you. Anyway, Gilligan and the castaways got tired of this, and set Captain Bly adrift in a rowboat. Wait, no, they tied him to an iceberg. As the iceberg drifted south, Captain Bly became a Polliwog. In the warmer waters, the iceberg melted and Captain Bly then had to learn something himself-how to swim and avoid sharks. :D

[humbleman]

Anyway, Captain Bly eventually made it to an island, which he named Clench, after his old first mate. And it was then that Captain Bly made a remarkable discovery. He found that all that swimming had given him the ability to bust coconuts with his bare hands. Which also provided him with sustanance. He decided, with little else to do, that he would dedicate his life to the art of busting coconuts bare handed.:p

[humbleman]

and Captain Blys skills with coconut busting became an obsession. His only focus became busting coconuts, and was so intense that he failed to notice the many ships that passed by. His sense of isolation grew to the point that in the later years, he became something of a joke to passing ships and boats. They used to come close to shore as he awoke at sunrise for another coconut busting session and would hail him on the bullhorn, "hey, Bly! Are you nuts, or what?" But our good captain didn't even hear him, such was his dedication to perfecting the new art of Coconut-Tao. They say if you pass Clench on the night of a full moon, to this day, you can still hear the sharp sound of coconuts cracking...:p

[BentMonk]

I agree... evolution is nature's quality control. The strong move forward while the weak, who are unable to adapt to change, get left behind. MA should be no different... it should be a living art. I think some people spend too much time trying to replicate a time that has already past. Look at all the great information that is at our fingertips now with the internet, books, and the ability to travel all over the world.

I study Shaolin-Do and I'm proud to say it. At my school there are no politics, no mystical BS, it stinks like sweat, and a lot of hard work goes on there. We openly discuss techniques and application on a regular basis and do not shy away ANY knowledge. It's a great school!

True. Good post man.

[kwaichang]

Then one day a ship wrecked and they didnt have any food so Capt Bly had to save them from themselves and break coconuts so they could eat and not starve. None of the passangers could, so they asked Capt Bly to teach them because they knew deep down that if they didnt learn they would die and they had to dedicate themselves to do it so as not to die . But those who did not dedicate them selves did die. KC

[Learn]

I'm not interested in ****ing contests. I could say that the filipino style I have been studying is the most realistic combatic style I have ever studied, and I do believe that, but that would not contribute to this discussion. There's always another. Training hour discussion aside, I am interested in discussing SD. The Judge had an excellent post about this. Correct me if I am wrong, but it was essentially that SD students are exposed to much, and then left to more specialized study with teachers of a particular system. I spent several years in SD and was not taught that way. I tested several times under ST. I was never encouraged to train with a dedicated Mantiss teacher, though I did. And I learned that what I learned in SD was way off base with regard to Mantiss. As I said, SD did very good things for me, but I now have questions about the learn forms from every style approach. I recently watched a video of forms I did, and while they may have been acceptable for belt testing, from what I know of real weapons usage, I learned nothing. It's difficult for me because SD training was such a positive in my life.

[kwaichang]

Thank you for your honesty. You seem disapointed that the Mantis you learned in SD was not what you were taught else where . I too studied Tang Lang For 10 years prior to SD it was different but I do not believe that Sd's Mantis is not real as i gained alot from both. I do not know what you learned but perhaps it is useful in another way. Although it is different it could still be "real " Mantis. Many think or seem to think that just because it doesnt look like what we expect it to look like it cant be real. Also because SD has so much it cant be real. However, There is no validity in that concept.
The arts have changed so much, especially Shaolin arts, that to say that something doesnt look the same as another is no way to validate or discredit a style or art. Many try though. Also the source of power what ever the name given is based upon mathematics Physics and bio mechanics primarily. Many have said that "SD Chen Tai Chi" is not real Chen because it "does not follow the "known current " concepts of Chen. again I say so what does anyone think the Chen of today looks anything like the original Chen Tai Chi. Maybe a little but not exactly so that kills that idea. I could go on but I feel if you read many of the posts here you will see many IDEAS of what people THINK. But do not know for sure. KC

[Golden Tiger]

Correct me if I am wrong, but it was essentially that SD students are exposed to much, and then left to more specialized study with teachers of a particular system. I spent several years in SD and was not taught that way. I tested several times under ST. I was never encouraged to train with a dedicated Mantiss teacher, though I did. And I learned that what I learned in SD was way off base with regard to Mantiss.

Excellent post Learn. I am not sure which JP post you are refering to(he has so many excellent ones:D ) but I think that just about all the long time students specialize to some extent once they get a few forms in the choosen style that they like. And if they feel their knowledge is lacking, they will seek out more and more information. Thats perfectly logical.

One statement you made, which is made by many but you seem willing to actually discuss it, was that what you learned of Mantis in SD was "off base" with regard to Mantis. If you wouldn't mind, and have the time, could you explain this a little better? We constantly here that SD(fill in the blank) is not real (fill in the blank) but hardly ever get much more than that. I for one, am interested in your take on the difference.

Also, I will agree with you that the weapons forms are not taught as well as they should be and in a r/l situation, not very effective. Then again, unless we start teaching tactical handgun training, I doubt that any thing would be..:D

[Flying-Monkey]

The drunken sword I watched showed little understanding of the sword. Especially, There is a lack of understanding in the wrist.

[Flying-Monkey]

The same goes for the spear vs broadsword.

The woman with the broadsword started with the sword in the right hand.
She showed a lack of understanding of proper attacks and defenses.
Her left hand movement was wrong.

The man with spear was the same.

He showed a lack of understanding of the weapon all together.
His attacks and defenses were non-sense.

There was a website with more forms. There were styles on that site that I didn't know, but i can easy see that they were wrong.

If a guy says he does wing chun and starts doing a bunch of jump spinning kicks and long swinging CLF punches. (he is not doing wing chun)

[Golden Tiger]

The drunken sword I watched showed little understanding of the sword. Especially, There is a lack of understanding in the wrist.

How so?

The woman with the broadsword started with the sword in the right hand.

I haven't seen the vid in question but of the forms I know, all but one start in the left hand. In the sword vs. spear, there is an opening, then a pause, then the meat of the form. Perhaps the vid started after the pause.

Her left hand movement was wrong.

How so?

The man with spear was the same.

He showed a lack of understanding of the weapon all together.
His attacks and defenses were non-sense.

How so?


There was a website with move forms. There were styles on that site that I didn't know, but i can easy see that they were wrong.

Sorry, but I don't understand this statement.. Whats a "move forms"? Also, can you easily explain why they were wrong?


And thinks in advance for your opinion FM

[Flying-Monkey]

Sorry I meant "more".

The straight sword woman wrist seemed very stiff. Her strikes were not done correctly.

The left hand of the broadsword woman wasn't really moving properly with the sword hand.

The spear man's was just poking the spear out (often with one hand). He would leave the spear extended while the woman attacked and dragged it backwards. He wasn't using the basic blocks the someone learns with the demo the spear.

Plus, NO STANCES. I am not talking about the blending of stances because the person is in motion.

There was a site with a lot of SD forms, but I can't find it anymore.

If you want more detail, PM me your number and I will call and talk to you about it.

[Golden Tiger]

Thank you very much Flying Monkey. At least now, when I look at the videos, I will be able to see if what you think is bad..is bad.

If you want more detail, PM me your number and I will call and talk to you about it.


Not sure about that, you being in Japan and all but if anyone every wants to discuss any thing in a more real time setting, I usually have yahoo messenger on through out the day. Feel free to say hi at "Goldentiger2112". Please though, no p3nis enlargement spam.:D

[The Willow Sword]

When you lie about your lineage and make outlandish claims to that effect it destroys any credability you have regdardless of whether or not your system is good or effective.when you claim to practice CMA and it is clearly more JMA it also detsroys credability regardless. People want authenticity, they want to be able to be at a place that has a reputable back ground. People ALSO want to be able to actually LEARN the techniques and fighting applications to the forms they are learning.they also want to learn what they came there for(TCMA) What they DONT want is to learn a bunch of forms, train in only a couple of applications for each form that are forgotten anyway because you have to get ready to learn the next form for belt testing.

and please dont get me started on the specialized training. this mentality of "well you get alot of material and Then you can specialize with the teachers who are specialized in the special system that YOU want to learn. Bullsh!T. i wanted to specialize in bagua and hsing yi. i learned the SD form on both and only got a couple of applications to each. no real drills no specialization in anything, not much anyway. and i wasnt about to take a plane to go seek out Eric smith because HE is supposed to be the "internalist" of the Sd realm.

Sd doesnt have these "specialized" instructors floating around at the school just waiting to take you to a corner of the room and teach you what you want to learn. No you have to do the whole thing and waste your time learn useless after useless form. and when you DO ask to get some specialized training you are told to go figure it out for yourself. is this how a school and a system should be run? i think not.

yes martial arts evolve but there is a legitamate history and a transmission of viable information from generation to generation. Techniques and applications evolve, FORMS stay as they are(unless you are inventing a new style and even THEN the new style is taught and kept CONSISTANT) You dont get this consistancy at SD. I remember once when i went to a seminar in Lexington and i was a lower rank belt and i was having some trouble with one of the forms and i asked one of the senior instructors to assist me and he showed me something completely different then what i had learned down in texas. i thought to myself" okay so different things are taught at other SD schools, i thought things were supposed to remain consistant, guess not".

TWS

[Golden Tiger]

:rolleyes: yawwnnnnn....oh, sorry. Did you say something TWS?

[Judge Pen]

Excellent post Learn. I am not sure which JP post you are refering to(he has so many excellent ones:D ) but I think that just about all the long time students specialize to some extent once they get a few forms in the choosen style that they like. And if they feel their knowledge is lacking, they will seek out more and more information. Thats perfectly logical.

I think Learn was referring to this exchange:

As I posted, long time lurker. Judge Pen, I respect his approach to this discussion. Debate can be civil yet vigorous. There are passionate viewpoints concerning SD, and I respect that. Yet I think we can debate this in a civil manner. I pose a question to Judge Pen, who can discuss in a ciivil manner yet advocate his position. Do you ever wonder if you are beng taught many disparate forms without learning the real meaning behind them? Studying in SD gave me fullfillment, but did not take me to the next step. I was disappointed ultimately in the approach. Honestly, I have great affection for those who taught me, but I have developed serious questions about the methodology of the course of study.

I think that the curriculim in SD is designed to only give you a background in a certain set of material. What principles are taught from each bit of a seperate system do build on one another and compliment each of them, but often to the detriment of the individual style. I think that one should eventually pick a path and really focus on a particular set that they enjoy and that may mean looking to other sources. Many senior SD students have done this and there are SD masters that focus on a particular set and can give you the more in depth knowledge that you are looking for--then again there are many that simply employ the "jack of all trades" approach to martial arts. So, to answer your question, yes I think that the full meaning (I wouldn't use the word "real") is not always conveyed in SD at first. I think the next step is a journey that you chose to make on your own when you are ready.

Anyway, I think that many SD students have to look elsewhere to supplement their training in a specific area that interests them since few of them have access to a teacher in SD that has taken the time to focus on a particular style. I think that Most SD teachers are a "jack of all trades" type. They learn the material that is taught out but don't specialize in one particular system.

[The Willow Sword]

if you have to go outside of your school to get training that you are not getting in the "most comprehensive martial art in the World"school, then what does that say about the school in general? huh?

:cool: TWS

[Golden Tiger]

if you have to go outside of your school to get training that you are not getting in the "most comprehensive martial art in the World"school, then what does that say about the school in general?

If someone is not capable or intelegent enough to read the dictionary, is it the books fault?


Lucky for me, I have never had to go outside for training. I didn't sit and wait for it to be spoon fed, I practiced the moves over and over until I got it.

Howdy JP..thanks for the reply.

[MasterKiller]

If someone is not capable or intelegent enough to read the dictionary, is it the books fault?


Lucky for me, I have never had to go outside for training. I didn't sit and wait for it to be spoon fed, I practiced the moves over and over until I got it.

Howdy JP..thanks for the reply.


If I bought some encyclopedias but can't find the information I need in them, I'd point the finger at the publisher, not myself. You could fault me for being stupid enough to believe the publisher when they called their books "comprehensive," but it's not my fault that the books are unusable.

My thinking is that if someone is supposed to be teaching me how to fight, they should teach me how to fight. Anything I do extra on my own time should compliment what was already shown, but with proper instruction I should be able to reasonably apply every technique I was shown without having to think about it on a mountain top for 2 years...

[Judge Pen]

Heck, I'd consider reading outside books, comparing forms to others outside the style, and even chatting up others on KFO outside research. It all goes back to furthering one's knowedge about a particular topic.

[kungfujunky]

you cant teach someone a form..show them the application of the moves and poof they can fight

YOU (the student) have to practice the moves..you have to invest in loss and take some lumps in sparring before you can say you can fight

the issue i think people have with shaolin do is their brains cant take in all the material taught and then apply it all.

YOU have to break the forms down and try to use them. the instrucotr cant force you to do that

[MasterKiller]

Heck, I'd consider reading outside books, comparing forms to others outside the style, and even chatting up others on KFO outside research. It all goes back to furthering one's knowedge about a particular topic.

Word to that. But I don't agree with the idea that it's the student's job to figure out the forms. Personally, I think a lot of teachers do that because they are afraid to admit they don't really know what the movements are intended to do.

[kungfujunky]

Word to that. But I don't agree with the idea that it's the student's job to figure out the forms. Personally, I think a lot of teachers do that because they are afraid to admit they don't really know what the movements are intended to do.



in every school ive practiced at the teacher broke down the form move by move for us..no matter what the form

not sure where you got that info or if maybe you had a teacher that just didnt have it down but on the whole application is taught for every from ive been shown thus far

[Judge Pen]

My thinking is that if someone is supposed to be teaching me how to fight, they should teach me how to fight. Anything I do extra on my own time should compliment what was already shown, but with proper instruction I should be able to reasonably apply every technique I was shown without having to think about it on a mountain top for 2 years...
And I think SD does this well. I can reasonbly apply every technique I have (within reason--some I change the body mechanics on some to fit me and others I haven't put enough thought in.

Now if I want to KNOW mantis or Pa Kua or whatever, then why would I do nothing but the version I have leanred? I would do it to the point where I knew it, inside and out, and understood the principles that were taught, but I would be well advised to seek out others who train, compare notes, forms, theories, applications etc. To know my own material I have to know how it is similar and different when compared to others. What's wrong with that?

[Judge Pen]

Word to that. But I don't agree with the idea that it's the student's job to figure out the forms. Personally, I think a lot of teachers do that because they are afraid to admit they don't really know what the movements are intended to do.

My teachers do break down forms with very specific applicaitons. Sometimes its well after I have the movements of the form down and sometimes its while I'm learning a movement for the first time. I get their take on the application, but its not the only way and it may not be the most applicable way for me. That's up to me to toy around with.

And I think there is some of (I don't really know, but I'm afraid to admit it) attitude in TMA in general, but everytime I've asked my teacher about a move that may seem silly at first they will educate me on a way that move may be applied in a combat situation. Whether I or anyone else that I know have the physical skills and timing to acutally make it work are another debate all together. . . . .

[MasterKiller]

And I think there is some of (I don't really know, but I'm afraid to admit it) attitude in TMA in general, but everytime I've asked my teacher about a move that may seem silly at first they will educate me on a way that move may be applied in a combat situation. Whether I or anyone else that I know have the physical skills and timing to acutally make it work are another debate all together. . . . .


Well, that's really another pet peeve of mine that is not particular to SD. Some moevements in forms are so outrageous that they could never reasonably be used in combat. I hate when someone pulls an explanation out of their @ss with a "maybe it was used like this when people used to train harder" excuse. Some movements have no martial value. Anyone who knows the history of CMA knows a lot of forms have acrobatics that were designed for shock and awe and not for practicality.

[Judge Pen]

Well, that's really another pet peeve of mine that is not particular to SD. Some moevements in forms are so outrageous that they could never reasonably be used in combat. I hate when someone pulls an explanation out of their @ss with a "maybe it was used like this when people used to train harder" excuse. Some movements have no martial value. Anyone who knows the history of CMA knows a lot of forms have acrobatics that were designed for shock and awe and not for practicality.

You're right that some moves ARE part of the training. Others are aestics only. But I can't say that someone gifted couldn't apply a technique that I can't so I take all of that with a grain (or more) of salt.

Certian techniques take a deal of conditioning and atleticism to do. Trying to perfect that technique improves ones speed, strength, explosivness, body awareness, timing, etc to a point that all of their material improves because of it. Personally, I'll never throw a spinning hook kick in a fight, but I know there are people that could make that work for them in the reight circumstance even if I couldn't. But I practice them (and butterfly kicks, and all manners of other stuff) because its challenging.

If all I wanted to do was work on fighting, then I'd quick kung fu and do boxing or MMA.

[humbleman]

I'm not interested in ****ing contests. I could say that the filipino style I have been studying is the most realistic combatic style I have ever studied, and I do believe that, but that would not contribute to this discussion. There's always another. Training hour discussion aside, I am interested in discussing SD. The Judge had an excellent post about this. Correct me if I am wrong, but it was essentially that SD students are exposed to much, and then left to more specialized study with teachers of a particular system. I spent several years in SD and was not taught that way. I tested several times under ST. I was never encouraged to train with a dedicated Mantiss teacher, though I did. And I learned that what I learned in SD was way off base with regard to Mantiss. As I said, SD did very good things for me, but I now have questions about the learn forms from every style approach. I recently watched a video of forms I did, and while they may have been acceptable for belt testing, from what I know of real weapons usage, I learned nothing. It's difficult for me because SD training was such a positive in my life.Apparently you never encountered Sensei Brian. Brian was Mantis personified. He even looked-er-I always hated when he went into a Mantis stance when we were sparring, because I knew I was in for pain the likes of which I would never encounter in any street situation. Being run through a meat grinder would hurt a lot less than being taken apart methodically and mercilessly by that man. Which probably explains why he learned the inner secrets of S.D. mantis. When not in combat, you couldn't find a man with a more gentle disposition and big heart. I'm not saying your experience with S.D. mantis isn't true, I'm sure it is. What I am saying is that there are many S.D. Masters and Senseis, and you or I haven't met all of them to see what they have to offer, and never possibly could. That's probably why it's called "Secrets of the Temple." The temple is a living thing. I wish you well.;)

[humbleman]

Then one day a ship wrecked and they didnt have any food so Capt Bly had to save them from themselves and break coconuts so they could eat and not starve. None of the passangers could, so they asked Capt Bly to teach them because they knew deep down that if they didnt learn they would die and they had to dedicate themselves to do it so as not to die . But those who did not dedicate them selves did die. KCwhispered rumors that one night, while meditating underneath a coconut tree for 49 days and nights on the true essence of Coconut Tao, a Coconut fell from the tree and split in a perfect half on Captain Blys head. But this was no ordinary Coconut. It was the Coconut of immortality. Bly immediately pulled out a jumbo crayola fuschia colored crayon that he kept stored in a watertight compartment and wrote down the inner teachings of Coconut Tao, which he hid inside the Coconut halves, and then buried. Years later, someone finally bothered to go ashore on Clench and dug up the mystic Coconut. He later sailed to Berdoo, CA. and founded the sect of Igotmynskruyujustsu-hukanuduitu-ryu. There, if you ask right, you can see the secret ritual where the monks of Igotmynskruyujutsu-hukanuduitu-ryu hold Coconut halves at their Tantien and walk in circles chanting. As with everything in the style, the Coconut halves have a practical funtion. They are worn in place of plastic cups during sparring, the only known defense against the terrible Coconut busting power of Coconut-Tao. This is known in the system as humor-ha-ha.:D

[humbleman]

Well OK Pick then you can hire a General Surgeon to do your Brain Surgery and let the Neuro Surgeons just watch as they scramble your brain to mush. I never said I did not cross train " in the Past" but I feel to do something as well as possible takes total dedication. I tell ya what why dont you grapple for a year or two then try kicking against a good Tae Kwon Do guy your kicks will be ****zen. Wake up and do what you want. I dont care I was there when I was young too. KCCats foot, iron claw, neuro surgeouns scream for more/ at paranoias poison door/ 21st century schizoid mannnnnn!!!! -king crimson:D

[brucereiter]

You're right that some moves ARE part of the training. Others are aestics only. But I can't say that someone gifted couldn't apply a technique that I can't so I take all of that with a grain (or more) of salt.

Certian techniques take a deal of conditioning and atleticism to do. Trying to perfect that technique improves ones speed, strength, explosivness, body awareness, timing, etc to a point that all of their material improves because of it. Personally, I'll never throw a spinning hook kick in a fight, but I know there are people that could make that work for them in the reight circumstance even if I couldn't. But I practice them (and butterfly kicks, and all manners of other stuff) because its challenging.

If all I wanted to do was work on fighting, then I'd quick kung fu and do boxing or MMA.

some of the moves are not always what they seem to be ... take a butterfly kick for example. i was walking towards a 4' tall barricade at work with my hands full of equipment. i used a butterfly kick to jump over the barricade. this has many self defense uses as you could imagine ... not just to kick someone ...

my 2 cents ...

i think it is up to the student to grasp the essence of which ever art. i have trained side by side with the same people for years had the same instruction as the rest of them but for example my understanding of tai chi chuan might be a little deeper than some of my peers, why??? we had the same oppritunity we have put in the same amount of time ... ???

[Judge Pen]

BTW Every application is individual to ones body and ability so if you have to be shown an application remember that it is just that persons concept of what the technique is for, based on his / her body style and strengths etc. KC

Absolutely. If you keep training and growing and improving, then more techniqes and applications become possible for you.

[Golden Tiger]

You could fault me for being stupid enough to believe the publisher when they called their books "comprehensive," but it's not my fault that the books are unusable.

My thinking is that if someone is supposed to be teaching me how to fight, they should teach me how to fight.

And I agree totally. And personally, I think that for the most part, SD does teach people how to fight, in a variety of different styles. But lets look at it a different way....Is the college professor or the class itself wrong or bad if every student doesn't make an A? If 90% or the class passes and 10% fail, whose fault is that? (I think TWS is in the bottom 10% of most things anyway :D )

Personally, I think a lot of teachers do that because they are afraid to admit they don't really know what the movements are intended to do.

Again, reluctently, I have to agree with MK.

Well, that's really another pet peeve of mine that is not particular to SD. Some moevements in forms are so outrageous that they could never reasonably be used in combat.

Might have been mentioned but outrageous moves might not be intended for combat use, but to create a need in the student to reach a higher level of fittness. All athletes use training tools that may never be used in their sport, but the tools make them better, faster, stronger (ala 6 Million Dollar Man)

[MasterKiller]

And I agree totally. And personally, I think that for the most part, SD does teach people how to fight, in a variety of different styles. But lets look at it a different way....Is the college professor or the class itself wrong or bad if every student doesn't make an A? If 90% or the class passes and 10% fail, whose fault is that? (I think TWS is in the bottom 10% of most things anyway :D )
W.E.B. DuBois called them "the talented tenth." Only 10% of people who ever enroll in college graduate in 4 years. I would say that 10% number applies to people in a lot of fields, including martial arts.

Might have been mentioned but outrageous moves might not be intended for combat use, but to create a need in the student to reach a higher level of fittness. All athletes use training tools that may never be used in their sport, but the tools make them better, faster, stronger (ala 6 Million Dollar Man)

I concur.

[humbleman]

We each seek our own path I for one do not need to cross train. From the Tiger I will learn Tenacity and Power, The Snake suppleness and rythmic endurance, The Mantis patience, from The Dragon to ride the wind. and with all this why do I want to do something that will not help me to achieve my goal. Oh yeah and it is not the system it is the individual doing the system, if that person does not have the right attitude then it doesnt matter what syle or styles you do it wont help. Also TWS It is the most comprehensive system I have ever seen I want for nothing I am tested with strength , flexibility, endurance and application. Also ,BTW Every application is individual to ones body and ability so if you have to be shown an application remember that it is just that persons concept of what the technique is for, based on his / her body style and strengths etc. Find your own path only you can follow and to H**l with everyone else. If all of you guys are so good that you dont want to be associated with a style then start your own see how easy it is. KCwell spoken. Bravo!

[ninthdrunk]

Just my two cents:

I have had really good experience with specialization. It's all about how much you put into it, I guess. Not just how much you put in physically, but mentally. In fact, I would argue that might be even more important. Master Schaefer is there to answer any questions I have, and more often than not, he can make me realize that I've actually been keeping myself pinned down, so to speak, with how I've been looking at the problem. To me, that's what a teacher is for. Not to spoon answers into my mouth, but to show me how to overcome stumbling blocks that I've come up against. I WANT my path to mastery to be my own, not someone else's.

As to seeking out people who are specialists in SD, I see two different solutions. One is tied directly to my first point: explore the problem yourself. In a sense, become the specialist. I've found that if you go looking for someone to take you from ground zero all the way to mastery, it doesn't happen. I think it works better if you take yourself as far as you can on your own (with guidance here and there along the way, of course, as mentioned above). Second, instead of trying to find someone who has all the answers, find someone else who is in the same boat as yourself, and start asking questions together. I've come away from conversations with people in my same position with some really good answers. Were they the right answers? Sometimes...the point is that we tackled it together and made some progress.

I know for a fact that there are people in the Austin school that I could turn to for specialized training. Are they a master of certain arts? Not quite, but are they better than I am? Sure thing. They have skills that I want, and if I needed to, I could go and ask them how they got where they are. Sifu Ryon for Crane, Jason for tai chi, Sifu Sean for Hsing ie, Master Schaefer for bird, Sifu Andy for drunken. I know they have put in the time. It's evident in their training and sparring. They're there if I wanted to ask some questions.

So, sure we might benefit the most from travelling across the country to the different Masters of certain aspects of SD, but there are also resources close to home. Granted, Texas has a lot of students, so the odds are in our favor, and other locations might not be that lucky. Well, why not try and become the specialist yourself. Or take the few opportunities that you get seriously. Every time I've stopped a Master at a tournament for a few questions, they have responded very positively. Know what you want to ask in advance, and try to make it something more in depth than, "how do you specialize in mantis?" or whatever.

[Learn]

Many thoughts expressed here. Again, I have to express an appreciation for Judge Pen's civil discourse, and also for his passion for SD, because it meant so much to me. I also understand Willow Sword's passion on the subject. The poster who talked of the SD teacher who was so good in Mantis, I apologize for not remembering your name, but I trained with a number of senior instructors, and none of them conveyed the key principles and strategy of northern mantis. I did learn a mantis form in SD, and frankly, I am somewhat embarassed because it seems to me to be a shallow copycat without deeper understanding of what mantis is all about. I paid for studies in Tai Ji, in Ba Gua. I did enjoy it. None of my teachers ever told me there was so much more to learn about those styles. I learned a sequence of movements, no principles, no applications, no theory. Subsequent study has shown me that what I learned what just a seminar style introduction. I have no problem with that in and of itself, but that is not what I was told.

I recall learning certain sparring techniques. In retrospect, given additional experience, they were definitely karate based. Not cma.

Really, this is a difficult thing for me, because my studies with SD made me so many friend and changed my life. But I also have some bitterness, because my subsequent training has introduced me to much more realistic approaches to fighting. I do have a feeling that I was duped. I definitely got something, just not what I was sold.

I suppose it depends on our expectations. SD can deliver wonderful things. But you have to match it up to what you want.

As far as weapons, I love cma weapons, but I love where I'm at now much more. Serious, real world knife fighting is very challenging, but there is pleasure in studying the jian.

[The Willow Sword]

i repsect what Ninthdrunk has to say but i also think that it is easy for an instructor who doesnt have the proper knowledge of a form(s) to say "go figure it out for yourself" and make this mystical statement that the "answers will come to you". to me this is more indicitive of hollywood kung fu MOVIES rather than a practical approach to learning forms and their subsequent applications.
you dont just learn a form and explore a couple of applications within and then move on to the next form. have you mastered that form when you do this? i say absolutely not. The statement of " learning the applications yourself" is the excuse i had been given all throughout my time at SD. yeah i would be taught a couple of "possibilities" then left to my own. Not that i am in the bottom10% of things as golden a$$hole suggests that i am. But you definately feel like you are cheating yourself and cheating others buy trying to pull applications out of your butt and then teaching them to others when you are not sure if what you are doing is the correct way(and yes there are many combinations of applic. contained within forms). joe's focus in his teaching was always about the FORM rather than the applications of the form, with only minimal % of teaching applications(but that was during the time i was there). I mean hey thats why sd has the sparring techniques and the age old true shaolin ippon kumite:rolleyes: techniques. It seems as though you are distracted with those and focus on using those in your fighting and in tournaments. ive only seen a Few people at Sd during my time there actually try to emulate and fight like the forms taught to them. never a mantis or a tiger or a bird way of fighting but more so the typical kiddie karate way.
The bottom line for me aside from the obvious lineage/history fabrication is the inconsistancy of the forms taught at different schools and the LACK of real application training for the forms. It is one reason why i dont do the sd forms anymore. How can i teach something to someone if i dont KNOW what it is that i am really teaching?
i can teach the version of bung bo mantis i learned prior to Sd and all its applications because my teacher actually SHOWED ME THE APPLICATIONS to the form( i would then take those and learn from those applications to create ones that i thought were applicable) . There was NEVER a form or aspect of a form that he taught me without teaching me the applications to every move he made. None of us are supra geniouses nor are we mind readers, we need instruction and guidance. you dont just sit a child down in a math class and say "ok here is 2+2, now go figure the answer out on your own". as elementary this example is it does make the point that one can be shown a problem/form but in order to understand said problem/form one must be taught the fundamentals in order to find the answers or applications. SD does not do this with their forms.

TWS

[brucereiter]

The bottom line for me aside from the obvious lineage/history fabrication is the inconsistancy of the forms taught at different schools and the LACK of real application training for the forms. It is one reason why i dont do the sd forms anymore. How can i teach something to someone if i dont KNOW what it is that i am really teaching?
i can teach the version of bung bo mantis i learned prior to Sd and all its applications because my teacher actually SHOWED ME THE APPLICATIONS to the form( i would then take those and learn from those applications to create ones that i thought were applicable)

TWS

hi twi and all ...

i will use "yang tai chi chuan 64 form" as an example. here at the atlanta csc as part of regular class we are taught 167 give or take possible applications from the 38 individual postures. i started being taught applications in my first few classes almost 10 years ago. in the 6 months spent to begin to learn "yang tai chi chuan 64 form" we start off with about 4 or 5 applications per section (we split it into 6 sections and spend 1 month on each section on a continuos rotation)

most students after the first 6 months never dig deeper and this is their choice. also theydo not really practice the first applications they are shown outside of class so i think it is their own problem.

the applications are not shoved down our throats though as not all students are interested (and this is ok) we have some older people who are just trying to become more healthy we have some younger people who are not mature enough yet and we have some people who are very interested and very skilled (maybe 10% of the students) the information is there for the taking at the atlanta csc schools, it is just most students do not really care and again i think this is ok ... martial arts are a personal journey and for some learning tai chi as an activity is just as good as learning tai chi chuan as a serious martial art.

my teacher always stressed standing meditation (though he did not call it zhang zuan) i really think only a few students have put in more tha a few moments of practice into zhang zuan, push hands, applications study and sparing. i was always taught it is important to the internal arts so i did the practice and i have noticed in my peers the ones who have done this type of practice along with push hands, applications and sparring all have a certain level of skill and the ones who just go along and run through the form somtimes and that is it well they have an activity that brings them pleasure, are they missing many of the benefits of internal arts practice? yes! but it does not matter if they are happy and enjoy it this is good ...

i think each shaolin do school might be diffrent in how they teach. i have met sd people from each of the major clicks of shaolin do and found both very skilled people with deep understanding and also people who have very little understanding of the internal arts.

one question i have for people outside of shaolin do is at your school what % of students are very skilled and understand and demonstrate internal arts to a high skill level?

[Judge Pen]

I don't know who your SD teacher was (and I mean them no disrespect) but you did not get good instruction. Unfortunately, there are several forms that are taught (seminars, festivals, or just picked up as you go) that you just get them movements but the core material should never be taught without applications. Not hand-holding or spoon-feeding but basic principles and applications to help you understand the style the form is from. By not getting that in you Pa Kua or whatever, you got bad instruction. It is a problem in SD (even sometimes with good instructors who get in a hurry).

Kali is good stuff. I've seen enough of it to respect it and what it teaches. If all you got in SD were good friends, good memories, and good excercise with a simplistic martial understanding then, two things, (1) I'm sorry that you weren't taught more (as you should have been), and (2) I'm glad you could get something out of it before you left.

[Golden Tiger]

Not that i am in the bottom10% of things as golden a$$hole suggests that i am.

Now now little fellow, lets keep it civil.

And with out quoting the heck out of the previous posts, I have to agree that if a student is not getting the applications, back ground training and such, then they are not being taught.

[ninthdrunk]

TWS, I totally agree with most of what you're saying, but I do think we look at the situation a little differently. First, don't even get me started on instructors who don't know what they're doing. I know there are a lot of people teaching in the shaolin do world that probably should take a little time off to get their stuff straightened out. I mean no disrespect to anyone, or the organization, but it happens in SD as I'm sure it happens in most other schools/organizations. Sometimes these people are allowed to teach because of spirit or ability or tenure, and sometimes it's just out of lack of resources in the school. Whatever the case, I agree that in those situations, the "go figure it out" answer is unsatisfactory, because this person couldn't even answer yes/no questions about applications. They probably haven't tried things out and have even a minimal understanding of the material. I think people who don't know the answer should be willing to just say, "I don't know, let's ask Master Schaefer when he comes in." I don't know if it's ego, or fear of seeming like you don't know the answer. I think a lot of instructors forget they are still students.

Now, I have never been taught this way by Master Schaefer. From the time I started, all of my lower belt material through the cranes at 3rd brown were taught with basic applications, and in most cases we spent class time here and there drilling them. Was it as much drilling as I needed to be proficient at using the applications? No, but it gave me a decent understanding of the moves. I must admit the Austin school is a bit bigger, and when I first started training there, there was less of the drills, but I know that Master Schaefer still teaches applications to all the lower belt material. The upper belt stuff is sometimes hit or miss. Does this mean his focus is mainly on forms? Well, I think that's a mixed answer.

I've talked with him about this, and, not to put words in his mouth, but he has found great value in training forms. Remember that his own teachers are hundreds of miles away from him, and so he learned to extrapolate meaning on his own from his forms. I'm sure he also got applications here and there as were needed, but for the most part, he is a thinker and an innovator. He seems to have trained himself in a "do it yourself" way, with forms as his guide. He is very big on the transformative power of forms. And I must admit that I find his method extremely beneficial. With the lower belt applications I was taught, I'm able to look at forms and come up with good, seemingly effective applications for just about everything in our forms. And the things I can't figure out....sure enough, any time I've asked, Master Schaefer has had a good solid answer for me. The important thing is, that with continued forms practice in a particular style you can feel your own movements and way of thinking changing. So, maybe the problem comes back to taking on too many forms, when what you're really looking for is specialized understanding in one particular set of forms.

So, I agree with what you're saying, and I know everyone's learning styles are different. So, maybe Master Schaefer's just fits mine better than others, but I really think that the instruction in SD works because it has worked for me.

OH, and like KC said, you'd be really surprised at the training in Austin now. There are still problems with training, but I think that is the price to pay in such a large organization, but the fact remains the quality of training has also gone up in many respects. Basically, you can get what you want there. If you just want to be in shape and have a good time, you can get it. And if you want to learn to be a martial artist...well, I know you can get that, too.

[The Willow Sword]

Hey TWS though you might not believe it you made a big mistake leaving SD when you did the art is alot deeper than you would have dreamed and I am not talking forms here. KC

Oh you mean all the "Hua" roads and whatnot? Nah, Wasnt interested in learning any of that NOR was i interested in anything else that wasnt related to bagua and hsing yi directly. HAD i stayed with SD i would have continued the internal curriculum and focused on the hsing i and pakua and tai chi. Those arts are pretty deep if you ask me. plus they provide a LIFETIME of material and endless contemplation.
seems like SD treats them as "Medicore" when compared to all that "upper level" stuff and the "deeper" things you are trying to tell me is there. PLUS, even if i Wanted to go back to SD(which i dont) they wouldnt have me back anyway, especially Joe.

TWS

[Golden Tiger]

PLUS, even if i Wanted to go back to SD(which i dont) they wouldnt have me back anyway, especially Joe.


I would take you in TWS. All jokes aside, I don't hold grudges and would love to find someone as devoted to learning as you are to pass on what I have learned in the 30 odd years. I have even been told I am pretty good at all that internal sutff..:cool:

[Baqualin]

Oh you mean all the "Hua" roads and whatnot? Nah, Wasnt interested in learning any of that NOR was i interested in anything else that wasnt related to bagua and hsing yi directly. HAD i stayed with SD i would have continued the internal curriculum and focused on the hsing i and pakua and tai chi. Those arts are pretty deep if you ask me. plus they provide a LIFETIME of material and endless contemplation.
seems like SD treats them as "Medicore" when compared to all that "upper level" stuff and the "deeper" things you are trying to tell me is there. PLUS, even if i Wanted to go back to SD(which i dont) they wouldnt have me back anyway, especially Joe.

TWS

Don't know you...have watched post on here for a while, but I've been in and out of SD for 33 years and I'm sorry for your experience.... mine has been totally different (my location helped). I too love the internal (it's all I do now) and it's really stressed .....the past 3 or 4 years most seminars taught by Grand Master Sin and Elder Master Leonard have been internal forms encluding weapons. GMS has also changed the advancement requirements for the internal to be on a equal level with the external (chen 83 pre black now).....for the people who took the seminars they are able to (if they choose)practice weekly with the masters with applications (including point strikes) and proper form always stressed. And yes there's a lot of bad internal in SD, but also a lot of people who do know the classic's and the rules of Pakua and Hsing i and how to apply and practice them.
We have a lot of the external students that come into the internal class to learn their required internal forms better. You also mentioned flying to see Master Smith....it would be worth the money, trust me. Anyway I hope you find what your looking for. One last thing about our lineage....chinese history is full of legends and mysticism....sometimes they turn out to be true...who knows. For those who believe our material came from books and videos all I can ask is how many were available 40 years ago? For those making fun of how a 60 year old Grand Master
(of which nobody of any age in SD could even stand his work out routine) I wish you could have seen GSM and his brother weapons spar in the early years...I'm sure Golden Tiger will concur.:

[Radhnoti]

EM Leonard has a applications video for Tai Chi 24...but it looks like it's out of stock right now:
http://shaolin.safeshopper.com/1/cat1.htm?809

[Learn]

Judge, good honest post about a contentious subject. Perhaps I dwell too much on this, but I feel this kind of discussion is good when it comes to something so contentious. I have not named my teachers, because of my respect for them, but I was short changed. Perhaps because they wished not to short change me but that they gave me everything they had at the time. I know they gave me everything they had, and I appreciated that. I do love cma, I practice forms on my own for the love of it. However, for reality I study pikiti tirsia kali. My reality training is so much far ahead of what I studied in sd. That's not to say kali is better than cma, just that I didn't learn these things in sd. (Actually, kali is better than cma in some areas, but cma has some great strenghts)

[Learn]

Just to be clear, I underwent a black belt test under Sin The and passed. I also passed tests for tai ji and ba gua. I don't say that for any ego reasons, just that I have been deeply involved in sd.

[Learn]

Kwai Chung,

I may have misunstood your question. However, the philipino/indo culture is a blade culture. It is the most advanced such culture in the world. If you wish to deal with a blade, at its highest level, one will study such. CMA lacks there. It does not mean cma is worthless, it has other strengths

[ricardocameron]

DON'T MISS IT!! Sunday....



Martial Arts vs. Crash Test Dummies: National Geographic's FIGHT SCIENCE

by Dr. Craig Reid


How many of you out there have ever wondered just how powerful a good karate spinning back fist is compared to a boxing right cross, or how deadly a muay thai knee strike is compared to a tae kwon do kick, or how fast is a kung fu finger jab compared to a boxing jab? Is it really possible for a small man to kill a large man with one carefully placed strike or for someone to easily incapacitate an attacker without throwing a single punch or kick? If there is one TV show you must see this year, it has to be FIGHT SCIENCE on Sunday, August 20 at 9 pm ET/PT on the National Geographic Channel. This highly intelligent show marries a dream team of crash test scientists, sports biomechanists and Hollywood animators with a cross-section of legitimate martial artists representing various styles of martial arts in an attempt to separate martial arts fact from fiction

[ricardocameron]

The wife sent me this... Man, I could make some MAD money with this... :p


It's the EYE TOY on CRACK!

Augmented Reality Kung Fu

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gF5WCwEYnng


"High T3ch already talked about Augmented Reality. This time its about Kung FU ! It allows a full body interatction via camera sensors making the game more fun for the player."

[Golden Tiger]

which tai chi and pakua applications videos

Master Bill did a DVD to the tai chi 24, and also one with Hsing I (shattering hand). The ones I think BM2 is refering to are the Tai Chi 64, Classical Pa Kua, 8 Animal Pa Kua and perhaps a couple of others that Master Sin did over the years. Those aren't for sell as far as I am aware. Then again, if the price is right....:p

JP, I'll get back to you on that. Something could be worked out I am sure.

[Spear55]

This is my first time posting. I came across this thread and it took me a while to realize that I had done a seminar with one of the Shaolin-Do masters. Several months ago my teacher had Master Grooms from Atlanta do a seminar for our school on Tai Chi Fundamentals, Applications and Fighting Technique. A handful of people from Atlanta came down for the seminar.

I’ve been around for quite awhile with Master Nick Scrima’s schools and have done many seminars with Grandmaster William C.C. Chen on Tai Chi. I have also worked with Master Tony Yang and done a Xingyi seminar with Di Guoyong President of the Beijing Xingyi Research Association.

Master Grooms never really talked about Shaolin-Do – I don’t think he ever said the words. He did talk about multiple trips to China to visit the Temples and go to Chen Village and going to some big World Tai Chi event on Hainan Island a few years ago.

The only thing I recall him saying about Grandmaster Sin The’ was that he was unbelievably fast and powerful. Which I found amazing he would say that because I have never seen anyone as explosive as Master Grooms. His punching speed was better than Di Guoyong and in push hands there simply is no comparison between him and Grandmaster William C.C. Chen. Master Grooms did a little push hands with me – he told me to do whatever I wanted and go as fast as I felt like. He then turned his head away from me and carried on a conversation with other people while he effortlessly destroyed me. I may not be great , but I have been at this quite awhile and have spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars with big name guys like Di Guoyong and William C.C. Chen. All those seminars did not teach me in countless hours what Master Grooms taught me in about two hours. I actually have an understanding of power delivery and speed development that makes sense.

Of course you might say he is just a freak of nature – and his hand speed is freaky. However, there were more than a couple of his students there who were similar in rank to my Shifu and they were significantly more skilled in Tai Chi fighting. There was big guy named Bruce who my Shifu said was exceptional and then there was this guy that Master Grooms said was his senior student. I think his name was Mike Reed and he supposedly played in the NFL. That is one scary dude.

To sum it up ---- this handful of people from Atlanta had better skills and understanding of Tai Chi than the group of people from my school who are essentially students of Grandmaster C.C. Chen

[ricardocameron]

I trained under Master Gary and Mike Reid for a while in Atlanta CSC's..they are very skilled and knowledgeable. Does he do these seminars at your school often? How long have you trained at your school? If it wasn't so far from Wesley Chapel/Zephyrhills, I'd probably be there!!

I am hopefully soon to be training again at the Shaolin-do school in Brandon, Fl...(Tampashaolin.com) :)

[Judge Pen]

This is my first time posting. I came across this thread and it took me a while to realize that I had done a seminar with one of the Shaolin-Do masters. Several months ago my teacher had Master Grooms from Atlanta do a seminar for our school on Tai Chi Fundamentals, Applications and Fighting Technique. A handful of people from Atlanta came down for the seminar.

I’ve been around for quite awhile with Master Nick Scrima’s schools and have done many seminars with Grandmaster William C.C. Chen on Tai Chi. I have also worked with Master Tony Yang and done a Xingyi seminar with Di Guoyong President of the Beijing Xingyi Research Association.

Master Grooms never really talked about Shaolin-Do – I don’t think he ever said the words. He did talk about multiple trips to China to visit the Temples and go to Chen Village and going to some big World Tai Chi event on Hainan Island a few years ago.

The only thing I recall him saying about Grandmaster Sin The’ was that he was unbelievably fast and powerful. Which I found amazing he would say that because I have never seen anyone as explosive as Master Grooms. His punching speed was better than Di Guoyong and in push hands there simply is no comparison between him and Grandmaster William C.C. Chen. Master Grooms did a little push hands with me – he told me to do whatever I wanted and go as fast as I felt like. He then turned his head away from me and carried on a conversation with other people while he effortlessly destroyed me. I may not be great , but I have been at this quite awhile and have spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars with big name guys like Di Guoyong and William C.C. Chen. All those seminars did not teach me in countless hours what Master Grooms taught me in about two hours. I actually have an understanding of power delivery and speed development that makes sense.

Of course you might say he is just a freak of nature – and his hand speed is freaky. However, there were more than a couple of his students there who were similar in rank to my Shifu and they were significantly more skilled in Tai Chi fighting. There was big guy named Bruce who my Shifu said was exceptional and then there was this guy that Master Grooms said was his senior student. I think his name was Mike Reed and he supposedly played in the NFL. That is one scary dude.

To sum it up ---- this handful of people from Atlanta had better skills and understanding of Tai Chi than the group of people from my school who are essentially students of Grandmaster C.C. Chen

I'm curious about your background in Tai Chi. I've played sticky hands with the Bruce you referred to, and the guy had great skill (he drawfed me in size and skill--the guy had great sensitivity and amazing flow with his technique--especially for a big guy). I wonder if you had compared their form instead of their fighting how you opinion would have been different.

[Spear55]

Done the 108, 24, CC Chens 60, some sword. "Fighting training" was really just pushing.

First part of the seminar was all about form and how it is supposed to develop speed and power and teach you how to fight. It all made sense to me.

You might say he is doing something wrong in the form however he can explain whatever he does with sound physics and impressive demonstrations of speed and power.

If I have to do it wrong to hit like that.... I guess I'll be doing it wrong.

[brucereiter]

I wonder if you had compared their form instead of their fighting how you opinion would have been different.

hi jp,

i was told by a chen guy who has a lot of famous teachers that my chen xin jia is too "flowery" to be any good at fighting so i asked him to do free push hands. he said what is that they only do 5 prearranged push hands drill. they were good drills but they are just that drills!

at any rate he looked really good doing his form very pretty to watch but the thing was he had no real concept of what the moves meant. no martial ability other than the basic punch/kick you see any child doing in a playground fight.

he had a lot of theories and ideas and went to a lot of seminars with even more famous people but that is it and i think this is the case with the majority of ima people they have theory but nothing real.

people get to caught up in lineage and fancy names instead of skill.

my teacher never once told me to "relax my kua" or "fold my dang"
but he showed me how to do those things with action and meaning not just words that none chinese speaking people cant understand.

practice

[Maxwang]

Does SD teach the internal arts of Tai Chi, Pakua, and Xing I ????

[kungfujunky]

Does SD teach the internal arts of Tai Chi, Pakua, and Xing I ????


yes it does

[brucereiter]

Does SD teach the internal arts of Tai Chi, Pakua, and Xing I ????

yes, i would say the skill level and understanding varies from person to person but the internal side of sd is really good.

[The Xia]

I mean come on, Shaolin Do claims a man with hypertrichosis was taken in by Shaolin monks after being abandonded by his parents. Then they claim he learned everything Shaolin had and became the temple's first "grandmaster". On top of that, they claim that this is the Southern Shaolin Temple......
They expect people to believe that.

[kungfujunky]

why cant they be true?

this is what i find so silly...because something is hard to believe does not mean it isnt true

[The Xia]

Lets cut to the point......What the hell is Shaolin Do?

[The Xia]

why cant they be true?

this is what i find so silly...because something is hard to believe does not mean it isnt true
kungfujunky, even the Shaolin Doka (a new term) on this forum don't defend such claims.

[kungfujunky]

that still doesnt make it false..there is an absence of proof either way to support or negate the claim.

i know that what i learn is affective and real. others have come on here and said the same thing.

shaolin do is shaolin kung fu.

it took an interesting path from the temples to the usa but that is what it is

[brucereiter]

I mean come on, Shaolin Do claims a man with hypertrichosis was taken in by Shaolin monks after being abandonded by his parents. Then they claim he learned everything Shaolin had and became the temple's first "grandmaster". On top of that, they claim that this is the Southern Shaolin Temple......
They expect people to believe that.

i do not think people are expected to believe anything.

in my opinion they should consider all sources of information and their experience and come to their own conclusions. if you have decided that shoalin do is "fake" and of no value then please do not study it.

if you are interested in finding out what shaolin do is i advise you meet some people who practice it and exchange information with them. i think you would come accross a wide range of skill sets and understandings of the arts taught in shaolin do.

happy training ...

[The Xia]

i do not think people are expected to believe anything.

in my opinion they should consider all sources of information and their experience and come to their own conclusions. if you have decided that shoalin do is "fake" and of no value then please do not study it.

if you are interested in finding out what shaolin do is i advise you meet some people who practice it and exchange information with them. i think you would come accross a wide range of skill sets and understandings of the arts taught in shaolin do.

happy training ...
I've read the outragious claims. I'm not going to buy that. However, I asked here what Shaolin Do is. So, what is Shaolin Do?

[kungfujunky]

that still doesnt make it false..there is an absence of proof either way to support or negate the claim.

i know that what i learn is affective and real. others have come on here and said the same thing.

shaolin do is shaolin kung fu.

it took an interesting path from the temples to the usa but that is what it is

answered here

[Judge Pen]

Lets cut to the point......What the hell is Shaolin Do?

From the tone of your post makes me not want to waste my time explaining this to you. Read this thread from the begining and you might find the answer. Or if you want to be antagonistic, then keep posting.

[The Xia]

From the tone of your post makes me not want to waste my time explaining this to you. Read this thread from the begining and you might find the answer. Or if you want to be antagonistic, then keep posting.
The internet isn't a good indicator of tone. I meant for the question to be strong and clear (this way people don't dance around the answer).
I've read through the thread and can't really find a straight up answer. From offsite sources, I only find the wild stories. So I ask you Judge Pen (and anyone else who wants to chime in), what is Shaolin Do?

[lunghushan]

The internet isn't a good indicator of tone. I meant for the question to be strong and clear (this way people don't dance around the answer).
I've read through the thread and can't really find a straight up answer. From offsite sources, I only find the wild stories. So I ask you Judge Pen (and anyone else who wants to chime in), what is Shaolin Do?

Just read through the thread (or at least many pages of it). It is evident that irrespective of where Shaolin Do is from that they do forms + applications + sparring, so it can't be all bad.

Plus if you read through the Judge Pen sparring clips, he can spar.

At some point you have to stop worrying about lineage.

So what if it is a Shaolin McDojo. At least it's a Shaolin McDojo where they learn to fight.

[Baqualin]

The internet isn't a good indicator of tone. I meant for the question to be strong and clear (this way people don't dance around the answer).
I've read through the thread and can't really find a straight up answer. From offsite sources, I only find the wild stories. So I ask you Judge Pen (and anyone else who wants to chime in), what is Shaolin Do?

Shaolin Do......40 years in america.....it's pretty obvious what we are....a lineage of Shaolin that migrated to Indonesia then to the US like it or not.....40 years and a lot of good people.

[Flying-Monkey]

Shaolin Do......40 years in america.....it's pretty obvious what we are....a lineage of Shaolin that migrated to Indonesia then to the US like it or not.....40 years and a lot of good people....

Bullsh!t.

[Flying-Monkey]

Did you know Monkeys have the smallest p***s of all the primates ? KC

What's your point? Since I don't plan on having sex with you, why would you care about the size of my p***s?

[Flying-Monkey]

Yeah, I'm being a d**k, because I feel that Shaolindo have no true Shaolin lineage.

[The Xia]

Well cant be answered in one post so in a nut shell it is a Shaolin Martial Art that encompasses many CMA's Hsing Ie Tai Chi Pa kua animal styles and weapons. You have read the history and you can believe what you want so what school do you come from ? Is that direct enough for you mister direct or what info do you want exactly ? please be precise so we can answer. !!! KC
I am not a Shaolin Doka (no one has commented on my new word. I think its clever lol). However, it is obvious that Shaolin Do is a talking piece in the Kung Fu world. It seems to be alot like the San Soo situation.
So you are saying that Shaolin Do is a combination of Tai Chi, Bagua, Hsing Yi, and some other stuff?

[Flying-Monkey]

Who was your Hung gar teacher? Who was your tiger teacher? Please explain more.

[Flying-Monkey]

How old are you now (excuse the age question)? Well, what were these teachers names? I did Tae kwan do when i was 10 and I remember my teacher's name.

[BentMonk]

I've posted this once on this thread already, but obviously some people missed it.

There are hundreds of pages of debate and discussion about all things Shaolin Do floating all over the net, and elsewhere. That fact alone makes SD "real" in many ways. All of this attention to the pros, cons, substance, and origins of SD have shown us that;

1. There is CMA present in SD. I'm talking about the material itself, not an opinion of performance.

2. There are SD schools that strongly emphasize technique application, proper form and body mechanics, and physical conditioning.

3. SD schools are like people. They all have strengths and weaknesses. They each see their point of view as correct, and sometimes forget that everyone else does the same thing.

4. SD is subject to all of the same drama as any other endeavor involving a large group of imperfect human beings.

5. SD is no different than any other MA. There are instructors, students, and fighters that are excellent, good, fair, and poor. This is a matter of effort, not what is real.

6. SD is not unique in having history that can be neither proven or dis proven.

7. SD is not unique in using larger than life marketing to attract students.

There are no more "pure" lineages. There is no "true Shaolin". The Shaolin being taught and practiced in China right now is a business that bears little resemblance to the original, and is marketed heavily. There are many in the world far more knowledgeable about CMA than those of us posting here. If SD were truly a complete fraud, someone besides us would have figured it out and said something long before now. BTW Shaolin Doka was funny.

[The Xia]

XIA yes you are being a D--K and as I said you can think what you want you saeem to be a Troll to me. KC:rolleyes:
Petty insults....yeah, that will convince everyone here. :rolleyes:
Lets keep this to civilized discussion. Name-calling isn't going to get anywhere.
No , Shaolin Do as the history explains encompasses the teaching from all 6 temples in China. There is alot that is covered and we trace our Lineage Primarily to the fukien Temple. I have learned the Hua , Hung Gar, Tiger, Lohan, as well as the internal arts mentioned and Iron Bone and Tang Lang and on and on. That is what it is .
You believe the whole "Shaolin Grandmaster" story kwaichang?

[The Xia]

BTW Shaolin Doka was funny.
Thanks. :D

[BlueTravesty]

I've posted this once on this thread already, but obviously some people missed it.

There are hundreds of pages of debate and discussion about all things Shaolin Do floating all over the net, and elsewhere. That fact alone makes SD "real" in many ways. All of this attention to the pros, cons, substance, and origins of SD have shown us that;

1. There is CMA present in SD. I'm talking about the material itself, not an opinion of performance.

2. There are SD schools that strongly emphasize technique application, proper form and body mechanics, and physical conditioning.

3. SD schools are like people. They all have strengths and weaknesses. They each see their point of view as correct, and sometimes forget that everyone else does the same thing.

4. SD is subject to all of the same drama as any other endeavor involving a large group of imperfect human beings.

5. SD is no different than any other MA. There are instructors, students, and fighters that are excellent, good, fair, and poor. This is a matter of effort, not what is real.

6. SD is not unique in having history that can be neither proven or dis proven.

7. SD is not unique in using larger than life marketing to attract students.


Very good points.


There are no more "pure" lineages. There is no "true Shaolin". The Shaolin being taught and practiced in China right now is a business that bears little resemblance to the original, and is marketed heavily.

If there is no "true Shaolin," then by what yardstick are we comparing current Shaolin? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that pre-20th century Shaolin Kung Fu was MUCH different than the Shaolin practiced at the temple now, but I think the main differences were probably more along the lines of applications, martial intent, fewer forms, and fewer weapons than what we see today. Is it your contention that the Hong and Lohan forms are commercialist Shaolin inventions?

At least some of the money coming to the Monk teachers goes toward Buddhist purposes (In particular, I'm thinking of Shi Guolin.) Granted I'm not a Buddhist, but I can respect money going to a cause other than an MA organization.


There are many in the world far more knowledgeable about CMA than those of us posting here. If SD were truly a complete fraud, someone besides us would have figured it out and said something long before now. BTW Shaolin Doka was funny.


As you said, "There are hundreds of pages of debate and discussion about all things Shaolin Do floating all over the net, and elsewhere." Therefore, someone besides us HAS "figured it out." I don't think SD is a "complete fraud" however. I just think the style as a whole should have a slice of humble pie rather than saying "yeah, all you other styles are so fake, just because your arts are Chinese doesn't mean they're REAL."

On a side note, due to a post from another forum user in my area, I found out there's a SD school not too far from where I am currently studying Kung Fu. I wish them the best of luck, as they are currently renting space from a dance school. At our Kung Fu class though, no one has been "up in arms" about it though. You know, kinda like how in REAL life (most) MMA types aren't as snooty about TMA as (most of) the MMA types who post on Martial Arts forums.

[The Xia]

From some of the historical posts in this thread (MasterKiller has some excellent posts), Shaolin Do seems to be a by-product of martial arts blending in Indonesia. Why not just come out with it instead of perpetuating the "Shaolin Grandmaster" story?

[Green Cloud]

Xia this is one out of many comercial schools that are out there case in point united studios, Vilaris, Shaolin kempo, and so forth. They are all loosely based on CMA.

These styles are only as good as the guy that made them up. One thing these schools are good at is creating an image and marketing themselves.

To admit that they are full of it would not be good for their self image and when it come to the members well they defend their style to the very bitter end.

After all it's hard for martial artist to admit that his Black Belt is lets say just a black belt.