Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Mas Judt]

CF - I'd ask Gene what goes - he's a shaolin dude.

[Mas Judt]

Could this be the missing founder of SD?

[kwaichang]

I trained with an individual who studied Tai Chi in China for 30 years, Prior to SD, while I do not flaunt my knowledge as you do "in writing" not "posts of you doing anything" does not mean I do not know what something is or is not. BTW just because a person is named Chen means nothing , I know a guy named Chan but he is not an actor. You should look at your posts and critique the clips I observed there are moments in the clips that are imperfect but I assume you are perfect so you expect the same from all who practice. KC

[tattooedmonk]

This indicates that Tan Tui is possibly from a Tan Family.



the bold is me... those are the parts that remind me of the techniques in question.

Based on that it sounds more like these techniques are some form of tan tui.

I certainly have never heard of a B side to them or them being used as a two man set.

the search continues... supposedly the ones in SD are a hybrid fusion of both ..I lean more towards the tan tui...see you did not need my sources you found them yourself!! I was in the csc chatsworth/ northridge for 15 years( if your question was directed towards me)

tan tui/ lohans are the building blocks of chinese martial arts forms

[Golden Tiger]

Could this be the missing founder of SD?



Now now MS2, you are better than that...:(

That would be like me pointing out something like this "he gives you the gifts of knowledge bought with blood. Men have died learning the body of knowledge to which you now have access" (1) or "he is a hell of a fighting man, you give him respect because you have no choice-to associate with him is to show respect for the danger in him." (1)

1. Chas Clements "In Adat of Hormat" 1993 (for copyright protection)

Accchhhhbullshltooo


And I won't even ask why Uncle Bill's visit was canceled...politics in your sytle too?

[MasterKiller]

ok... this is just getting weird now...


what's going on here? (http://www.beishaolin.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=15)

someone help me out...

This is the school of Master Shi De Shan

it goes on to say he toured with the shaolin troupe etc etc etc

still with me?

This is not Shi De Shan's school.

In 1998, a 31st generation Shaolin Monk, Shi De Shan, moved to the United States and began teaching Kung Fu. Sifu Scott saw this as the opportunity of a lifetime to learn directly from a real Shaolin Monk Master. He asked Master Shi De Shan to accept him as his student and has been training with him on a regular basis ever since. Master Shi De Shan visits the Harlingen school twice a year to offer seminars to Instructor Scott’s students.

update:

same text is found here

That website contains a numer of factual errors, such as

In order to graduate from the temple, they would have to exhibit phenomenal skills and pass through 18 testing chambers in the temple. If they survived the first 17 chambers, they would have to grip an iron couldron with their bare forearms and have the raised relief of a tiger and dragon burnt into their arms. These marks were the signs of a true Shaolin Master.

There is no record outside of the Kung Fu TV series that this ever occurred.

[BlueTravesty]

come on now... we all know there are 35 chambers :D

[kungfujunky]

tattoedmonk: which forms in the clip did you like? im curious

mas judt: is it possible for someone to demo a form (since it is a quick demo and not really long enough time allowed for an 83 posture chen form) without investing the energy and focus required to do the things you said were lacking?



i heard emds tell a story about gmt

the crux of the story involved the actual shaolin temple ...not sure what to call them books manuscripts...anyways the shaolin monks kung fu history...with forms and all other knowledge that would go with it

i have not seen it but would this evidence..if brought to light and confirmed...finally silence the questioners of shaolindo?

isnt it possible that shaolin do's history is true and plausible? and for those that say no have you ever questioned the ins and outs of your styles lineage and history? i bet 90% of all "real" kung fu studied today have areas in their history where flight from persecution occured. where the threat of losing the art was very close and iminent.

just a thought

[Radhnoti]

TTM - "The short forms that are refered to as lohans are not......they are tan family leg techniques( tan tui) there were originally 108."

I've had SD Masters in KY tell me that the 30 short forms were drawn from 108 steps? of the lohan. They (and I did get THIS from more than one source) indicated that it was similar to, but not the same as tan tui. It was their opinion that anyone calling them "tan tui" was either misinformed or attempting to conform to a preexisting standard in the Chinese martial art community. That is to say, it's common for CMA schools to start out teaching "tan tui", so someone trying to conform to a CMA mold might call them tan tui. I'm not even sure I'd call it a misstatement, as it serves the same purpose and is so similar...it might take more energy than it's worth to explain, "We have...well, not tan tui, but a distillation of a similar style that serves the same purpose...and it's true that lots of other CMA use tan tui...and you, the U.S. public would never know the difference, but..." :rolleyes:

If I'm not mistaken GT has commented before that he's spoken with EM Leonard before about this and it was always "108 (I want to say steps) of the Lohan" as well. If GT doesn't back me...well...one of my other sources was another original student via his highest ranking student. I've never been shy about asking questions. :D
It's amazing to me how much of the, "Where did this come from?" question is just thrown aside as unimportant. Which, in my opinion, bolsters the possibility of a kuntao classification.

[kungfujunky]

TTM - "The short forms that are refered to as lohans are not......they are tan family leg techniques( tan tui) there were originally 108."

I've had SD Masters in KY tell me that the 30 short forms were drawn from 108 steps? of the lohan. They (and I did get THIS from more than one source) indicated that it was similar to, but not the same as tan tui. It was their opinion that anyone calling them "tan tui" was either misinformed or attempting to conform to a preexisting standard in the Chinese martial art community. That is to say, it's common for CMA schools to start out teaching "tan tui", so someone trying to conform to a CMA mold might call them tan tui. I'm not even sure I'd call it a misstatement, as it serves the same purpose and is so similar...it might take more energy than it's worth to explain, "We have...well, not tan tui, but a distillation of a similar style that serves the same purpose...and it's true that lots of other CMA use tan tui...and you, the U.S. public would never know the difference, but..." :rolleyes:

If I'm not mistaken GT has commented before that he's spoken with EM Leonard before about this and it was always "108 (I want to say steps) of the Lohan" as well. If GT doesn't back me...well...one of my other sources was another original student via his highest ranking student. I've never been shy about asking questions. :D
It's amazing to me how much of the, "Where did this come from?" question is just thrown aside as unimportant. Which, in my opinion, bolsters the possibility of a kuntao classification.


i have heard a similar explanation form a csc instructor and then confirmed it from emds

i have also seen an incredible piece of art the elder masters bought on a china trip that shows allll of the lohans in little pictures for each move...the scroll is long and shows lohans that we havent gotten to yet lol!

i also agree that not enough people ask questions!

[Crushing Fist]

Master Killer -


it may not be his "personal school" but you have to admit its as much his school as any SD school is Sin The's. (exactly as much in fact, twice a year)

so that leaves the question:

how does a "true shaolin" school with such a lineage as this end up with SD's "temple history" on its website? the same history that is ridiculed by the "true shaolin" crowd.

If this guy is a direct student of a "real monk" how did he get it "so wrong"?

why are they borrowing from SD?


just curious really.

[Mas Judt]

Oh c'mon GT, I was just rillin' up the children... nothing personal. I know your smaet enough to read between the lines of my posts...

I'll be gone for a while... keep arguing until I come back...

[BlueTravesty]

isnt it possible that shaolin do's history is true and plausible? and for those that say no have you ever questioned the ins and outs of your styles lineage and history? i bet 90% of all "real" kung fu studied today have areas in their history where flight from persecution occured. where the threat of losing the art was very close and iminent.

just a thought
I don't think the POSSIBILITY is an issue. Most of the things in SD's history are POSSIBLE. The plausibility is what gets most people at first. Personally, I don't care. I'll give SD the benefit of the doubt. What most people find offensive isn't the possibility or the plausibility, it's the rhetoric. Here's the impression I get of SD, from the websites and SOME practitioners, not all. (A lot of the SD practitioners on here seem like really nice, hard-working people. That should get respect regardless of lineage.)

"Hey you, you non-SD people. Yeah, you don't practice the real thing. We do. We know this because we were told so, and we've got some cool black and white photographs. You so-called 'masters' can practice your flowery ineffectual styles all you want, we respect your fake styles [this seems to be the SD equivalent of "martial ethic"] Please respect us, don't put us down. Why are you putting us down? You all are so disrespectful! I don't get it!"

"Ha! We may wear gi's, but those uniforms YOU wear only exist in movies! Ours look like monk robes! Monk robes that have been bleached... alot... and are worn differently.... and are shorter at the top... and tie up at the hip instead of the side... and have totally different pants.. and no leggings... and...and..."

The reaction of SD/CSC (again, the "official side") to questions or "attacks" of their lineage or performace is usually to attack the person's lineage and/or performance. Now you have to realize, when your system's history is suspect, and there are a lot of "odd things" about it, you're NOT in a position of strength, debate-wise. The burden of proof doesn't lie with the Millions of TCMA practitioners the world over, but with SD/CSC. SD itself doesn't HAVE to prove anything, but one who wishes to expound its virtues versus just about every CMA system around has to do exactly that.

When in this position, the smart thing to do would be to say "Well, we have Shaolin and other temple forms. Perhaps they changed in the transition and addition of Japanese elements. Perhaps since Ie Chang Ming learned so many forms from so many disparate systems, the flavors of each form influenced the flavor of the other forms. That's why it looks different. I work hard at my art and I stand by it." You can still stand by the Ie Chang Ming account, the gi's, the katas, and Sin The' and all that. From a purely neutral point of view (ala without bias or politics,) your practice would still be totally valid. The only thing you'd be admitting is what most already know- SD looks different from traditional CMA forms, because it IS different. It's entirely possible that it's from Shaolin, Hua Shan, etc. I can dig that. But to say the difference in appearance and such is because all those other forms (as practiced in China and elsewhere) are wrong, and only GM Sin and his affiliates have the real thing is just silly and condescending.

I respect SD in and of itself the same as I respect Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Karate TKD or any other Martial Art when done well and practiced in earnest. I just hope no one in SD/CSC claims to have "discovered" the lost MizongQuan form as passed on by Ie Chang Ming. Then it's flame on :)

I can just hear it now "Well, YOUR Mizong comes from the movies, OURS is the real thing..."

[Mas Judt]

Crushing Fist has the bone! Now this is fun... I'd like to know too...

[Mas Judt]

BlueTravesty hits it on the head.

And GT - you don't even want to know the politics of the KunTao world. I guarentee they make whatever politics you face in SD look sane. Really.

Which is why I carefully pick what I pick on :)

[Crushing Fist]

i have heard a similar explanation form a csc instructor and then confirmed it from emds

i have also seen an incredible piece of art the elder masters bought on a china trip that shows allll of the lohans in little pictures for each move...the scroll is long and shows lohans that we havent gotten to yet lol!

i also agree that not enough people ask questions!


this is something I have heard of (or similar such things) and would love to see even a small part of...

I've done the old google image search with no luck, does anyone have links to pictures of this type of artwork?

I have always heard the short forms referred to as lohan as well.

I have also heard the 108 number with 2 variations

1. it was edited due to repetition... boiled down to the essentials

2. that all 108 moves are there simply broken into 30 sections


the first seems more likely, but I don't know.

to me, these type of basics are the most important thing of all

like the I Chin Ching




does anyone know of the origins of the "sparring techniques"?

[brucereiter]

ok... this is just getting weird now...


what's going on here? (http://www.beishaolin.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=15)

someone help me out...

This is the school of Master Shi De Shan



it goes on to say he toured with the shaolin troupe etc etc etc

still with me? good.

now here's the weird part:

his website's info on the shaolin temples...




anyone else see what I am getting at here?

this is practically cut and paste from Sin The's book...


I'm so confusified...


update:

same text is found here (http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Sands/3390/shaolin.htm)


and here (http://www.shaolinlasvegas.com/temples.htm) (this is a CSC site)

pretty weird huh ... before a few years ago yang jwing ming was pretty much the only other person/group that made these claims ... now a "real" shaolin monk ???

check out the book "shaolin lohan kung fu" by p'ng chye khim and don draeger 1979

on another note regarding tan tui there is an interesting artical on page 56 of this months kung fu tai chi magazine. it states that tan tui is named after the long tan temple of shandong province. check it out ...

[B-Rad]

Shi De Shan's website is http://www.houstonshaolintemple.com

Maybe a student with previous SD experience created another site for the school?

[B-Rad]

BTW, I just sent them an email asking what's up. I'll let you know if I get a reply :p

[Crushing Fist]

When in this position, the smart thing to do would be to say "Well, we have Shaolin and other temple forms. Perhaps they changed in the transition and addition of Japanese elements. Perhaps since Ie Chang Ming learned so many forms from so many disparate systems, the flavors of each form influenced the flavor of the other forms. That's why it looks different. I work hard at my art and I stand by it." You can still stand by the Ie Chang Ming account, the gi's, the katas, and Sin The' and all that. From a purely neutral point of view (ala without bias or politics,) your practice would still be totally valid. The only thing you'd be admitting is what most already know- SD looks different from traditional CMA forms, because it IS different. It's entirely possible that it's from Shaolin, Hua Shan, etc. I can dig that. But to say the difference in appearance and such is because all those other forms (as practiced in China and elsewhere) are wrong, and only GM Sin and his affiliates have the real thing is just silly and condescending.


I think this is the most rational statement about SD I have ever read from someone outside the system.

thanks for that

I am sorry you have gotten the impression that you did, and that it seems many people have gotten, and I wish that this type of tone was the norm.




Mas -

based on the tiny clip of Chen Taiji that was on that video, I have to say your criticisms are well justified

that was certainly not a representative sample of the form, and whereas I do not know the master doing it, perhaps it is not his specialty. The Master who taught me is BIG on Chen and I really wish there was a video floating around of him doing it.

for what its worth, when he was in Chen village one of these last times they told him that the Chen 83 form we have is an older version (not the generation that he thought it was but a few generations newer, like 19th gen instead of 17th.. just guessing at the numbers from memory) but that they did claim it as theirs...

I know, its just heresay... but I heard it so I thought I'd say it.


he also said that the first thing the chen village people demonstrated was Taiji Kwan Tao... that I would love to see :D

[BlueTravesty]

I am sorry you have gotten the impression that you did, and that it seems many people have gotten, and I wish that this type of tone was the norm.


No need to apologize for others' conduct. Like I said, there are plenty of cool, easy-going hard-working SD practitioners (such as yourself) out there who love their chosen art and don't get into the political morass we see here, and I think that's the side that people need to see in order for debates like this to become more civil in tone.

[B-Rad]

I've seen a brief video of Chen Xiaowang snapping the top off one of those things (or maybe a pudao) with a fajin move :p I'm sure it was a pretty crappy weapon, but still pretty cool ;)

[Judge Pen]

I don't think the POSSIBILITY is an issue. Most of the things in SD's history are POSSIBLE. The plausibility is what gets most people at first. Personally, I don't care. I'll give SD the benefit of the doubt. What most people find offensive isn't the possibility or the plausibility, it's the rhetoric. Here's the impression I get of SD, from the websites and SOME practitioners, not all. (A lot of the SD practitioners on here seem like really nice, hard-working people. That should get respect regardless of lineage.)

"Hey you, you non-SD people. Yeah, you don't practice the real thing. We do. We know this because we were told so, and we've got some cool black and white photographs. You so-called 'masters' can practice your flowery ineffectual styles all you want, we respect your fake styles [this seems to be the SD equivalent of "martial ethic"] Please respect us, don't put us down. Why are you putting us down? You all are so disrespectful! I don't get it!"

"Ha! We may wear gi's, but those uniforms YOU wear only exist in movies! Ours look like monk robes! Monk robes that have been bleached... alot... and are worn differently.... and are shorter at the top... and tie up at the hip instead of the side... and have totally different pants.. and no leggings... and...and..."

The reaction of SD/CSC (again, the "official side") to questions or "attacks" of their lineage or performace is usually to attack the person's lineage and/or performance. Now you have to realize, when your system's history is suspect, and there are a lot of "odd things" about it, you're NOT in a position of strength, debate-wise. The burden of proof doesn't lie with the Millions of TCMA practitioners the world over, but with SD/CSC. SD itself doesn't HAVE to prove anything, but one who wishes to expound its virtues versus just about every CMA system around has to do exactly that.

When in this position, the smart thing to do would be to say "Well, we have Shaolin and other temple forms. Perhaps they changed in the transition and addition of Japanese elements. Perhaps since Ie Chang Ming learned so many forms from so many disparate systems, the flavors of each form influenced the flavor of the other forms. That's why it looks different. I work hard at my art and I stand by it." You can still stand by the Ie Chang Ming account, the gi's, the katas, and Sin The' and all that. From a purely neutral point of view (ala without bias or politics,) your practice would still be totally valid. The only thing you'd be admitting is what most already know- SD looks different from traditional CMA forms, because it IS different. It's entirely possible that it's from Shaolin, Hua Shan, etc. I can dig that. But to say the difference in appearance and such is because all those other forms (as practiced in China and elsewhere) are wrong, and only GM Sin and his affiliates have the real thing is just silly and condescending.

I respect SD in and of itself the same as I respect Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Karate TKD or any other Martial Art when done well and practiced in earnest. I just hope no one in SD/CSC claims to have "discovered" the lost MizongQuan form as passed on by Ie Chang Ming. Then it's flame on :)

I can just hear it now "Well, YOUR Mizong comes from the movies, OURS is the real thing..."

Wow, BT: I have to agree with this. This is a summary of my posts on SD from the begining. I believe that our forms are Chinese but that many of them evolved differently as it filtered through Indonesia and Kentucky. At the same time other CMA styles were taking their own path. As such, our forms are different than others who practice the same style. Compound that with the fact that we learn many forms from different styles (which makes it difficult--but not impossible--to afford them each their own flavor) and you get the SD that you see.

108 Lohan is what my teachers tell me our short forms are derived from. I've been taught a couple of Tam Tui and they are very similar to our short form, the main difference is the absence of the "b" side.

[Judge Pen]

does anyone know of the origins of the "sparring techniques"?

My understanding is that they are fabricated to pull technique out of our short form that could easily be applied to sparring. If you look at the old KET tapes, they have sparring technique 4a, 4b, etc. At some point they got standardized, but when I first learned sparring technique years ago I had one variation. When I strarted training with Master Garry he told me the way I did certain sparring techniques were the way they were first taught, but now these are done this way, etc. No big deal.

GT, do you have a different recollection?

[Golden Tiger]

Wow, I have a lot of catching up to do. Don't you all ever sleep?

Any hoo...

I looked at that website that you all have been commenting on and its a rip off, plain and simple. That or I have got to go there to get Liu Hsing. And here I thought SD was the only ones that had it.....:D

GT has commented before that he's spoken with EM Leonard before about this and it was always "108 (I want to say steps) of the Lohan" as well. If GT doesn't back me...well...one of my other sources was another original student via his highest ranking student.

Of course I've got your back Rad.;) Yes, that is the story of the origin that I have always heard. The 30 came from the 108 and were shortened and condensed to cover what was needed to be practiced and eliminate repetition.

Not real sure when or where "Tan Tui" came into the picture. First I heard of it was out of Texas. Now M. Sin spends a lot of time down there and I just assumed that in conversation, he called it that or likened it to that. I was also part of the Mantis sets (I think, might be wrong, most likely am) and could have been added after that. That happens alot.

My understanding is that they are fabricated to pull technique out of our short form that could easily be applied to sparring.

That is where they came from. If you look at them, they (and the other variations taught long ago) included the basics introduced in the short forms (and the techniques match to a certian extent , ie. #1, 3, 4, 5, .....both use same moves). He wanted to have a way to apply the moves practiced into fighting.

[MasterKiller]

Master Killer -


it may not be his "personal school" but you have to admit its as much his school as any SD school is Sin The's. (exactly as much in fact, twice a year)

so that leaves the question:

how does a "true shaolin" school with such a lineage as this end up with SD's "temple history" on its website? the same history that is ridiculed by the "true shaolin" crowd.

If this guy is a direct student of a "real monk" how did he get it "so wrong"?

why are they borrowing from SD?


just curious really.

Well, not really. This is an eagle claw guy that just happens to also study with Shi De Shan a little bit. If Shi De Shan were out of the picture, his school would still be there, just without all the 'monk' mumbo-jumbo.

But it looks like whomever put the website together probably ripped that material from another site, quite possibly a Shaolin-Do site. For a long time, everyone was using the very inaccurate temple histories from Shaolin.com on their own websites. Once those guys got debunked, I guess people needed a new source to copy.

I've built plenty of websites (some of them get linked to from here all the time), and I can tell you that "borrowing" information is pretty common, and a lot times, the content is not approved by the guy paying you to build it. Most of the time, clients say "Build me a website, and add some stuff about Shaolin" but they don't give you the material. So, you have to get it somewhere.

[Radhnoti]

A long time The' student told us the "real" lohans were as long as many of the "medium sized" forms and weren't terribly linear either. He said that when the short forms were first taught out the students/teachers that got them all got a special "lohan patch" for their gi. :)

Blue Travesty - "When in this position, the smart thing to do would be to say "Well, we have Shaolin and other temple forms. Perhaps they changed in the transition and addition of Japanese elements. Perhaps since Ie Chang Ming learned so many forms from so many disparate systems, the flavors of each form influenced the flavor of the other forms. That's why it looks different. I work hard at my art and I stand by it." You can still stand by the Ie Chang Ming account, the gi's, the katas, and Sin The' and all that. From a purely neutral point of view (ala without bias or politics,) your practice would still be totally valid. The only thing you'd be admitting is what most already know- SD looks different from traditional CMA forms, because it IS different. It's entirely possible that it's from Shaolin, Hua Shan, etc. I can dig that. But to say the difference in appearance and such is because all those other forms (as practiced in China and elsewhere) are wrong, and only GM Sin and his affiliates have the real thing is just silly and condescending."

Absolutely.

[humbleman]

- something near and dear to my heart. When they kick in it's like having a black tornado blowing through your soul...

[humbleman]

...you not.:D

[BentMonk]

Blue Travesty...TRUE:D

[humbleman]

For the sake of sanity, I propose that to be able to post one post on this thread, the poster must do at least 4 hours of practice. Man (and Woman) law?:rolleyes: :D

[brucereiter]

For the sake of sanity, I propose that to be able to post one post on this thread, the poster must do at least 4 hours of practice. Man (and Woman) law?:rolleyes: :D

that brings up questions about practice ...

how many hours per week do people spend practicing alone?

how many hours per week do people spend practicing/taking class

how do you organize your practice schedule so you keep getting better at everything you have been shown?

for shaolin do people above 1-2 black what do you focus on with your training, do you train one style more than others? how often do you do each form/style you have been shown?

[kungfujunky]

interesting website i stumbled on today

http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/mindbodyspirit/History.html

anyone know of this school or this grandmaster?

[Judge Pen]

A former SD student that split and formed his own sock wearing outfit. Where does that stand on the authentic CMA continum? No soes--you must be JMA. Shoes--you're cma. Socks---MMA? :p

[Golden Tiger]

interesting website i stumbled on today

http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/mindbodyspirit/History.html

anyone know of this school or this grandmaster?


Yeah, Larry moved on many many years ago and popped up in Florida, opened a school and viola`, became Grand Poobah. Hmmm, maybe I should try that.....:D

[Judge Pen]

They should try argyle socks--adds a little flair to their forms.

[tattooedmonk]

interesting website i stumbled on today

http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/mindbodyspirit/History.html

anyone know of this school or this grandmaster?you have got to be kidding me!! hahahahahahhahaahahahh check out his leg in the grand master lineage picture it looks like it will break if a fly landed on it...he looks like a wet cat.. what a ****ing idiot...I swear back in the day if you flew me out to florida I would beat his ass and all his students just to prove that he was a fraud...now all I can do is laugh!!!!hahahaha

[Ou Ji]

Interesting, an SD guy goes out on his own then one of his guys goes out on his own. Where is that heading?

I like the list of schools that says (city unknown) for the guy in Noth Carolina!

[humbleman]

that brings up questions about practice ...

how many hours per week do people spend practicing alone?

how many hours per week do people spend practicing/taking class

how do you organize your practice schedule so you keep getting better at everything you have been shown?

for shaolin do people above 1-2 black what do you focus on with your training, do you train one style more than others? how often do you do each form/style you have been shown? looks like all the great masters on this thread are too busy busting coconuts to answer a legitimate question regarding training. See private message, one humble underling to another.

[humbleman]

Shaolindoiscool.:D

[humbleman]

that's gonna cost me 12 more hours...:eek:

[The Willow Sword]

Man its too d@mn HOT to train today!!!:eek: Here in Austin it is in the triple digits, heat index is much hotter, and besides, id MUCH rather watch the honeys do cardio kickboxing in the gym:D (that is also another excuse for not training today;) they be takin up my space.

Peace,TWS

[kwaichang]

Well, It is 90% humidity here in Tennessee and it is 90 degrees not as hot as Texas but I am still going to W/O drink lots of water and go for it. KC:)

[Learn]

Here's my take, for what it's worth. Long time lurker, first time poster. I studied SD for a few years in the early nineties. Attained a black belt after a test before Sin The. Since then I have studied northern mantis, silat, and kali. I would never trade my years with SD for anything. I made good friends, lost thirty pounds, and learned alot. That said, I have to be realistic. I was mostly taught alot of forms without practical theory or application. I learned many animal forms, sword, short stick, staff, kwan do, fan, nunchaku (?), sai (?), spear. I learned ba gua and tai ji. Or did I? Really, no. It was as though I learned an introduction to each. If the SD plan is to introduce a student to many, many, disciplines and then let the student decide which to follow, fine. But that is not how it was taught to me. I was taught some Mantis in SD. Subsequently, I studied in a Mantis school. There I learned the theories and strategies of Mantis boxing. What I learned in SD was sorely lacking in that regard. The things I learned in studying kali are far more practical and applicable in terms of weapon and empty-hand. Don't get me wrong, I love traditional Chinese martial arts. But from my own experience, I do not believe that SD teaches effective use of those arts. I will not denigrate anyone who follows that path. If you find fullfillment there, good for you, I did too. I do think that there is a master of all trades, master of none approach in that school. I would offer that it is not the best way to to master a Chinese martial art with the nuances of a particular art's strategy and philosophy, whether that is a good thing or not. And the nunchaku and sai, fun to do, but I'm still scratching my head.

[brucereiter]

I learned ba gua and tai ji. Or did I? Really, no. It was as though I learned an introduction to each. If the SD plan is to introduce a student to many, many, disciplines and then let the student decide which to follow, fine. But that is not how it was taught to me. I was taught some Mantis in SD. Subsequently, I studied in a Mantis school. There I learned the theories and strategies of Mantis boxing. What I learned in SD was sorely lacking in that regard. The things I learned in studying kali are far more practical and applicable in terms of weapon and empty-hand. Don't get me wrong, I love traditional Chinese martial arts. But from my own experience, I do not believe that SD teaches effective use of those arts. I will not denigrate anyone who follows that path. If you find fullfillment there, good for you, I did too. I do think that there is a master of all trades, master of none approach in that school. I would offer that it is not the best way to to master a Chinese martial art with the nuances of a particular art's strategy and philosophy, whether that is a good thing or not. And the nunchaku and sai, fun to do, but I'm still scratching my head.

hi learn,

i have found this to be true in many cases but there are a few who have dug a little deeper into the individual arts and have something of value to offer.

kali is a pretty brutal art from what i have seen. you are lucky to have experience there ...

below is a quote that hung in our school and made a real impression on me and my training.

"Rules are taught by teachers,
but the essence can only be comprehended by the students themselves.
The essence can only be obtained through practice.
Put simply, as you practice, you obtain the essence!"

most students do not get the "essence". whos fault is this? student or teacher?
for example the first internal taught in our school is yang tai chi chuan. it takes 6 months to learn the basic moves and after that first 6 months people think they know tai chi so they go onto learn the next thing and stop making any progress with what they already have. i have been going to level 1 class since i started almost 10 years ago and i suggest that others do also. i very rarly see a student come back to level 1 class after there first 6 months.

it seems as though people blame grand master the' for some students lack of understanding but i think he offers alot of knowledge and gives each student a certain amount of freedom to express their own understanding of the material presented. but it is very much upto the student to figure it out on their own as they are guided along by their teachers.

[BlueTravesty]

"Rules are taught by teachers,
but the essence can only be comprehended by the students themselves.
The essence can only be obtained through practice.
Put simply, as you practice, you obtain the essence!"

most students do not get the "essence". whos fault is this? student or teacher?
for example the first internal taught in our school is yang tai chi chuan. it takes 6 months to learn the basic moves and after that first 6 months people think they know tai chi so they go onto learn the next thing and stop making any progress with what they already have. i have been going to level 1 class since i started almost 10 years ago and i suggest that others do also. i very rarly see a student come back to level 1 class after there first 6 months.

it seems as though people blame grand master the' for some students lack of understanding but i think he offers alot of knowledge and gives each student a certain amount of freedom to express their own understanding of the material presented. but it is very much upto the student to figure it out on their own as they are guided along by their teachers.

You bring up some good points about the fault of a student for not getting the essence of the art, and perhaps being overly ambitious (biting off more than he or she can chew.) However, it is also up to a teacher to counsel a student, let them know "You should get a better foundation in X, before you try to learn Y." (thanks tattooedmonk.)

While it IS ultimately up to a student to grasp the "finer" points of a system, not every student can recognize a lack in his or her understanding of their chosen art. My sifu for example, will not teach me another step in our Dao (saber) form until I have demonstrated a solid foundation in the prior steps to the form. Last week, he even told me I needed to go "back" a bit. (That's what I get for working at a job where the concept of "exempt from overtime" is abused in the extreme. No time for practice! Let's hope that changes soon.)

As for Sin The... I don't believe it's his fault if certain SD people fail to adequately represent certain SD forms, however HE is the one who set the curriculum. In my opinion I think there are simply too many different systems of martial art represented in the SD curriculum, and the training time of the average student too limited to absorb the essence of all of them. I'm not saying you can't glean certain rudimentary concepts that you could add to your martial ability to make you a more versatile fighter, but there will come a point where you stop internalizing the essence of that art.

[Flying-Monkey]

This thread is corny. I hope it will be deleted soon.

[BM2]

Here's my take, for what it's worth. Long time lurker, first time poster. I studied SD for a few years in the early nineties. Attained a black belt after a test before Sin The. Since then I have studied northern mantis, silat, and kali. I would never trade my years with SD for anything. I made good friends, lost thirty pounds, and learned alot. That said, I have to be realistic. I was mostly taught alot of forms without practical theory or application. I learned many animal forms, sword, short stick, staff, kwan do, fan, nunchaku (?), sai (?), spear. I learned ba gua and tai ji. Or did I? Really, no. It was as though I learned an introduction to each. If the SD plan is to introduce a student to many, many, disciplines and then let the student decide which to follow, fine. But that is not how it was taught to me. I was taught some Mantis in SD. Subsequently, I studied in a Mantis school. There I learned the theories and strategies of Mantis boxing. What I learned in SD was sorely lacking in that regard. The things I learned in studying kali are far more practical and applicable in terms of weapon and empty-hand. Don't get me wrong, I love traditional Chinese martial arts. But from my own experience, I do not believe that SD teaches effective use of those arts. I will not denigrate anyone who follows that path. If you find fullfillment there, good for you, I did too. I do think that there is a master of all trades, master of none approach in that school. I would offer that it is not the best way to to master a Chinese martial art with the nuances of a particular art's strategy and philosophy, whether that is a good thing or not. And the nunchaku and sai, fun to do, but I'm still scratching my head.

I believe that this is an accurate account of what I have experienced. I like SD however I am certainly not blind to its short comings. But doesn't everything have its flaws?
Be that as it may, I just do it as a hobby. Its not like its my life's devotion or I have tats that says "SD RULES".
The reason I put up how the belt tests were scored on another post was to show the SD students posting on here what GMS thought of us. Most of us past with a D to a D- (69 was failing with most results being 70-73) with students who failed in half the tests I saw. Don't get too high of an opinion of our abilities.

[tattooedmonk]

You bring up some good points about the fault of a student for not getting the essence of the art, and perhaps being overly ambitious (biting off more than he or she can chew.) However, it is also up to a teacher to counsel a student, let them know "Hey, maybe before you try X, you should get a better foundation in Y."

While it IS ultimately up to a student to grasp the "finer" points of a system, not every student can recognize a lack in his or her understanding of their chosen art. My sifu for example, will not teach me another step in our Dao (saber) form until I have demonstrated a solid foundation in the prior steps to the form. Last week, he even told me I needed to go "back" a bit. (That's what I get for working at a job where the concept of "exempt from overtime" is abused in the extreme. No time for practice! Let's hope that changes soon.)

As for Sin The... I don't believe it's his fault if certain SD people fail to adequately represent certain SD forms, however HE is the one who set the curriculum. In my opinion I think there are simply too many different systems of martial art represented in the SD curriculum, and the training time of the average student too limited to absorb the essence of all of them. I'm not saying you can't glean certain rudimentary concepts that you could add to your martial ability to make you a more versatile fighter, but there will come a point where you stop internalizing the essence of that art.would it not be get a good foundation in " x " before move onto" y"??

I agree with most of this

.. this is because there is no transmision of the philosophical aspects of Taoism ,Buddhism , and Confucianism taught within the schools.. every school / instructor has their own philosophy ..forget the religious aspects but not the philosophical!! the arts were built using the philosophical principles of these belief systems. there should be a standard ...

There should be higher standards set for each belt level ,especially for black belts and instructor/ masters... not every black belt/ master can teach. and there should be a minimum amount of time at each belt level and forms should not be taught every month....... they should be done for 3 months ..basics first , form second , and applications third ....

so what if you can remember a hundred forms ...can you use them in a self defense combat situation??

practical application is most important!!!

[tattooedmonk]

that brings up questions about practice ...

how many hours per week do people spend practicing alone?

how many hours per week do people spend practicing/taking class

how do you organize your practice schedule so you keep getting better at everything you have been shown?

for shaolin do people above 1-2 black what do you focus on with your training, do you train one style more than others? how often do you do each form/style you have been shown? at least 1 hour a day for lower belts, 2 for brown, and 3 and up for black belts

the same for group lessons... so ...2 hours a day for lower belts 4 for brown belts and 6 for blackbelts and above...

total 14 hrs a week for lower belts...28 hrs a week for brown belts and 42 hrs a week for blackbelts and above ..

considering that there are 168 hours in a week ...this should not be too hard to achieve

lower belt this leaves you with 154 hours, brown belt this leaves you with 140 hours, and black belts this leaves you with 126 hours....make the time and effort
( kung fu)

...think about the body of material that sd has to offer , if you want to be the best and get the most out of it you can, this is the minimum.

it does not have to be done all in one session . and you will have to manage your time to make this happen .

for each belt level there should be another level of commitment . you can not get any better by having the same level of commitment at each belt level, especially when you get to black belt and above..

no hobbiest should be given a black belt or above.....

.I practice three hours in the morning , three in the afternoon ,and three in the evening with students and without

black belts should attend all classes on any given day and every belt level below should always take lower belt classes

like I said your level of commitment has to increase with your belt level ..this is one way that you will get better . training methods have to change from level to level .you can not expect to get passed a plateau if you keep doing the same exercises with the same amount of reps. with the same old training methods.

the schools need to do plyometric,isometrics, aerobics , etc to increase the quality of the students understanding of body mechanics and and increase the quality of the students over all. doing some classical Shaolin training like lock lift , horse stance training and water buckets , etc will help ....

the classes should be structured so that on specific nights you are doing; chin na, tan tui , sparring techniques, etc,. This bull**** about teaching every piece of material everynight is counter productive. you do not gain any understanding of the material this way.( essence= spirit=qi)

for black belts and above you should work on specifics ..if you are doing tiger do all the tiger training .

focus on exercises that emphasize tiger strengths; gripping exercises ,clawing , stances ,etc . then go onto the forms , then work on applications.
focus on one specific area of the overall system.

YOU CAN NOT LEARN THE ESSENCE OF ANY GIVE STYLE IF YOU ARE ALL OVER THE PLACE.

energy is dispursed over a large area ,that same energy is concentrated in a smaller one.......

STAY FOCUSED PEOPLE!!!

[brucereiter]

<<energy is dispursed over a large area ,that same energy is concentrated in a smaller one.......>>

thanks for sharing your ideas ...

[Judge Pen]

This thread is corny. I hope it will be deleted soon.

Why? It's better than a new SD thread starting up in a couple of weeks. Trust me, it will happen. Just keep this one around for those who want to debate the pointless to have a bit of fun.

[MasterKiller]

at least 1 hour a day for lower belts, 2 for brown, and 3 and up for black belts

the same for group lessons... so ...2 hours a day for lower belts 4 for brown belts and 6 for blackbelts and above...

total 14 hrs a week for lower belts...28 hrs a week for brown belts and 42 hrs a week for blackbelts and above ..

considering that there are 168 hours in a week ...this should not be too hard to achieve

lower belt this leaves you with 154 hours, brown belt this leaves you with 140 hours, and black belts this leaves you with 126 hours....make the time and effort
( kung fu)

That is ridiculous. Pro atheletes don't train 40 hours a week, and they get paid to do it. 99.9999% of people that live in the real world are lucky to get in between 6 and 10 hours a week.

Considering you need 40 hours for work (if you are lucky), and 56 hours for sleep, that leave you with about 72 hours. Factor in commutes, showers, kids, flat tires, lawns to mow.......and your numbers unattainable for just about everyone who doesn't make a living running their own school.

Train smarter.

[tattooedmonk]

<<energy is dispursed over a large area ,that same energy is concentrated in a smaller one.......>>

thanks for sharing your ideas ... considering the vastness of cyberspace, this forum, and the bull**** posts made by people who do not know what they are talking about, this is a concentrated area.... you are welcome...

[Judge Pen]

That is ridiculous. Pro atheletes don't train 40 hours a week, and they get paid to do it. 99.9999% of people that live in the real world are lucky to get in between 6 and 10 hours a week.

Considering you need 40 hours for work (if you are lucky), and 56 hours for sleep, that leave you with about 72 hours. Factor in commutes, showers, kids, flat tires, lawns to mow.......and your numbers unattainable for just about everyone who doesn't make a living running their own school.

Train smarter.

That's right...I get about 8 to 10 hours a week in. I expect that to go down once the baby arrives.

[orion_steel]

TTM - "The short forms that are refered to as lohans are not......they are tan family leg techniques( tan tui) there were originally 108."

I've had SD Masters in KY tell me that the 30 short forms were drawn from 108 steps? of the lohan. They (and I did get THIS from more than one source) indicated that it was similar to, but not the same as tan tui. It was their opinion that anyone calling them "tan tui" was either misinformed or attempting to conform to a preexisting standard in the Chinese martial art community. That is to say, it's common for CMA schools to start out teaching "tan tui", so someone trying to conform to a CMA mold might call them tan tui. I'm not even sure I'd call it a misstatement, as it serves the same purpose and is so similar...it might take more energy than it's worth to explain, "We have...well, not tan tui, but a distillation of a similar style that serves the same purpose...and it's true that lots of other CMA use tan tui...and you, the U.S. public would never know the difference, but..." :rolleyes:

If I'm not mistaken GT has commented before that he's spoken with EM Leonard before about this and it was always "108 (I want to say steps) of the Lohan" as well. If GT doesn't back me...well...one of my other sources was another original student via his highest ranking student. I've never been shy about asking questions. :D
It's amazing to me how much of the, "Where did this come from?" question is just thrown aside as unimportant. Which, in my opinion, bolsters the possibility of a kuntao classification.

I have heard a very simliar story from Master Green and his students over the years.

I agree with you on the "where did this come from" and the kun-tao classification statements/guestions.

[godzillakungfu]

That's right...I get about 8 to 10 hours a week in. I expect that to go down once the baby arrives.
Don't expect KNOW. Unless, you think your kung fu is good enough to take out your spouse.:)

[tattooedmonk]

That is ridiculous. Pro atheletes don't train 40 hours a week, and they get paid to do it. 99.9999% of people that live in the real world are lucky to get in between 6 and 10 hours a week.

Considering you need 40 hours for work (if you are lucky), and 56 hours for sleep, that leave you with about 72 hours. Factor in commutes, showers, kids, flat tires, lawns to mow.......and your numbers unattainable for just about everyone who doesn't make a living running their own school.

Train smarter. no... they train more ..not all the training is done on the field..or is physical ...take into account reading and studying

people that live in the real world?? what world are you living in?? if you are training less you are a beginner or hobbiest..... and not a martial artist....

56 hrs for sleep? are you kidding ?? if you are training properly you do not need 8 hrs of sleep !! Qi gong??

yeah ....72 hours..... average 10 hrs a day..... if you manage your time you can do it ...2 beginners leaves you with 8 ........, 4 intermediate leaves you with 6 ........., 6 advanced leaves you with 4 ...

work = kung fu ( time and effort)....

if you look again you will see that it is structured for beginning, intermediate ,and advanced.

read it again

like I said..... at each level you have to increase your level of commitment .... do you think that a black belt can be good or better if he is just doing 6-10 hrs a week ??

if you do your expectations are way too low and your kung fu probably amounts to about ****!!!

you probably did not even absorb it all before you started to respond....

I have read your post and you come off like a know it all ..

get off the high horse.

sounds like you need to train smarter.....

[tattooedmonk]

That's right...I get about 8 to 10 hours a week in. I expect that to go down once the baby arrives. what is your belt level??

[kwaichang]

I have read the past few posts and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that many that post here have little or no knowledge of physical training principles as far as contractile and non-contractile fibers are concerned. Training the way some have posted is rediculous your Martial Arts Career will certainly be cut short. I was a personal trainer for many years and knew guys who trained for 3-4 hours a day . It went like this 1 set of 12 reeeeeesssssttttt, 2nd set of twelve etc. Get my drift train at 95% for 1 hour or 5% for ten hours see who makes the most gains. Also cycle the program so as not to over train.
As far as having standards what if one of the standards was to do the Side splits and you cant do it but you can do all of the forms perfect? Sorry you cant do the splits so no Black Belt Sash or whatever. Get my drift . Martial arts are a personal journey compare your self to yourself yesterday are you better or show improvement ? Good then you can pass. Just like porn stars all Martial Artists are not gifted equally. KC :rolleyes:

[Flying-Monkey]

Why? It's better than a new SD thread starting up in a couple of weeks. Trust me, it will happen. Just keep this one around for those who want to debate the pointless to have a bit of fun.

Yes, but no other topics are not being discussed. Only SD is. I think it pushes a lot of people away from the Shaolin forum.

[tattooedmonk]

Yes, but no other topics are not being discussed. Only SD is. I think it pushes a lot of people away from the Shaolin forum. it is a SD thread ..what else is suppose to be talked about here???duh

[MasterKiller]

Get my drift train at 95% for 1 hour or 5% for ten hours see who makes the most gains. Also cycle the program so as not to over train.
Word.

10 characters.........

[tattooedmonk]

I have read the past few posts and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that many that post here have little or no knowledge of physical training principles as far as contractile and non-contractile fibers are concerned. Training the way some have posted is rediculous your Martial Arts Career will certainly be cut short. I was a personal trainer for many years and knew guys who trained for 3-4 hours a day . It went like this 1 set of 12 reeeeeesssssttttt, 2nd set of twelve etc. Get my drift train at 95% for 1 hour or 5% for ten hours see who makes the most gains. Also cycle the program so as not to over train.
As far as having standards what if one of the standards was to do the Side splits and you cant do it but you can do all of the forms perfect? Sorry you cant do the splits so no Black Belt Sash or whatever. Get my drift . Martial arts are a personal journey compare your self to yourself yesterday are you better or show improvement ? Good then you can pass. Just like porn stars all Martial Artists are not gifted equally. KC :rolleyes: Did I say that it was all physical and like you descibed?? NO...

you should read the whole post before you decide to respond..

.....and please do not take what I say out of context.....if you would like me to specify then ask and I will do so..

as far a standards you know what I mean..

of course certain people have limitations physically but that should not stop them from knowing the physical mechanics of the splits and being able to teach that to others who can...

you can what if about anything.... we are talking about what is.... and the standards for levels up to and past black belt are sub par for the most part....

many of these people just memorize the material, can not perform it, or help others do it ..so there has to be standards

a black belt should be able to do certain things if not they do not need or deserve to be a black belt .....

and in the future if you are going to refer to someones posts address it directly instead of the way that you did ( indirectly)

...get my drift???

[Flying-Monkey]

it is a SD thread ..what else is suppose to be talked about here???duh

Duh?

I am talking about in Shaolin forum.

[ninthdrunk]

TTM, I just wanna say that you are catching all this flack (this time around) because your post was pretty vague, and you made it sound like you train for nine hours a day, and that you advocate some pretty intense training hours. Then it turns out that you are actually advocating something different (ie. time spent reading and studying, etc). When I read the post, I took it as working out for nine hours a day, which I think is how most others have taken it as well. I know you said, if people have questions about your statements they should just ask, but that's not really how it works around here. You gotta make yourself really clear. So, I think it's all a misunderstanding.

Anyway, over the summer, I've been training (read: working with weights or kung fu) on average of 15 hours a week. Weights typically make up three to four of those, depending on how many days I lift that week.

Let me tell ya. It's getting rough, and I'm looking forward to easing off once the semester starts up. I don't know how the heck competitive athletes/fighters can handle the prolonged stress on their bodies!

[tattooedmonk]

TTM, I just wanna say that you are catching all this flack (this time around) because your post was pretty vague, and you made it sound like you train for nine hours a day, and that you advocate some pretty intense training hours. Then it turns out that you are actually advocating something different (ie. time spent reading and studying, etc). When I read the post, I took it as working out for nine hours a day, which I think is how most others have taken it as well. I know you said, if people have questions about your statements they should just ask, but that's not really how it works around here. You gotta make yourself really clear. So, I think it's all a misunderstanding.

Anyway, over the summer, I've been training (read: working with weights or kung fu) on average of 15 hours a week. Weights typically make up three to four of those, depending on how many days I lift that week.

Let me tell ya. It's getting rough, and I'm looking forward to easing off once the semester starts up. I don't know how the heck competitive athletes/fighters can handle the prolonged stress on their bodies! if you look back.... it was in reference to the comment about football players and yes part of workingout is studying and reading.

sometimes more and sometimes less time is spent on the physical but that does not take away from the work ( time or effort or kung fu)..

besides teaching martial arts I am a personal trainer so most times that time is exceeded...

I am up at 5am and in bed by midnight

you all think inside the box and do not think to ask anyone specifically what they mean before you jump to conclusions.

who says I am catching any flack??

I am not catching anything ....it is just like insulting someone, you only get insulted if you allow yourself to be


..that is why most people who practice martial arts are hobbiest and not martial artist

I will answer question how they are asked . if they are vague and general they will be responded to in the same manner

what are you about brown belt level??

[tattooedmonk]

Duh?

I am talking about in Shaolin forum.the only topics in the whole forum on Shaolin isabout SD ?? what are you blind?? even if this was the case you could start your own thread talking about non Sd subjects!!!

[tattooedmonk]

You are forgetting Tattooedmonkey is a SD monk and knows 300 forms and 10,000 techniques. SD monks are special and can train in their sleep like Master The. They use special Qi techniques to lengthen the hours of the day to train the special Hairyman form passed down from generations in the special lineage only SD has.

Come on you should know all this. Train harder!! Which way?that is pretty good !!!

[MasterKiller]

What do you SD people know about this group?

http://www.spiritoftheheart.org/


Indonesian Kung-Fu is a beautiful and fluid fighting art which encompasses explosive movements and calm. Explore the movements and fighting styles of the monkey, tiger, snake, and crane.

[kwaichang]

Well I read a martial arts book last week it took me 15 hours , whew that was hard training I almost sweated. True understanding comes from doing not reading., If you were clearer then we, me and others, could comment better. IMO YOU cannot train at an intensity level that you imply, to attain an increased level of ability, or even 6 hours "of physical " training wihout over training. If you want to debate training principle of the Physical then bring it on. KC

[tattooedmonk]

Well I read a martial arts book last week it took me 15 hours , whew that was hard training I almost sweated. True understanding comes from doing not reading., If you were clearer then we, me and others, could comment better. IMO YOU cannot train at an intensity level that you imply, to attain an increased level of ability, or even 6 hours "of physical " training wihout over training. If you want to debate training principle of the Physical then bring it on. KC did you get any thing out of it??

did you practice anything that was taught in it??

have you commited any of it to memory?

have you thought about the principles and techniques in it.

if you knew anything.....you would know that the same amount of energy can be utilized by the mind as the body.

.to spend that much time reading something, getting something from it ,you applied the same amount of work load on your mind that you would have on your body

that is why people, no matter if they are blue collar or white collar, are tired by the end of the day..get a clue

just like physical abuse and mental abuse register in the same part of the brain ..because it is abuse just the same

obviuosly you do not know how to train anything other than the physical/external

have you learned any of the internal arts?? do you practice Qi gong ?? for real??
because if you did it would invalidate everything that you are saying..

and you are right ....true understanding does not come from just reading. it comes also from comprehending, learning, asking questions , studying, memorizing, and appyling what you have read...

obviously you did not do anything other than read my post ...

or you would understand.....

[Learn]

As I posted, long time lurker. Judge Pen, I respect his approach to this discussion. Debate can be civil yet vigorous. There are passionate viewpoints concerning SD, and I respect that. Yet I think we can debate this in a civil manner. I pose a question to Judge Pen, who can discuss in a ciivil manner yet advocate his position. Do you ever wonder if you are beng taught many disparate forms without learning the real meaning behind them? Studying in SD gave me fullfillment, but did not take me to the next step. I was disappointed ultimately in the approach. Honestly, I have great affection for those who taught me, but I have developed serious questions about the methodology of the course of study.

[tattooedmonk]

As I posted, long time lurker. Judge Pen, I respect his approach to this discussion. Debate can be civil yet vigorous. There are passionate viewpoints concerning SD, and I respect that. Yet I think we can debate this in a civil manner. I pose a question to Judge Pen, who can discuss in a ciivil manner yet advocate his position. Do you ever wonder if you are beng taught many disparate forms without learning the real meaning behind them? Studying in SD gave me fullfillment, but did not take me to the next step. I was disappointed ultimately in the approach. Honestly, I have great affection for those who taught me, but I have developed serious questions about the methodology of the course of study......that you are not asking me, but after 15 years I have pretty good idea, and would like to give you an answer.....

this is the point to many of my posts.... this is the exact problem with the art on the whole. no philosophical principles from Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism are used to convey the ideas of the ancient masters.

they tell you that they are ,but do not teach about them right from the beginning because ,they say, they do not want there to be any religious connections

well for anyone that knows anything about it, they would know that the philosophy and the religion are not the same thing ..

.....but the religion is based on the philosophy... fine take out the religion and the rituals that go along with it but do not take out the philosophy...

the whole system was founded on them( philosophical principles of TCB) and now it is being destroyed because of the lack of them...

to keep it short and simple .... yes most people feel this way!!! just to chicken **** to say anything....!!

[BlueTravesty]

That is ridiculous. Pro atheletes don't train 40 hours a week, and they get paid to do it. 99.9999% of people that live in the real world are lucky to get in between 6 and 10 hours a week.

Considering you need 40 hours for work (if you are lucky), and 56 hours for sleep, that leave you with about 72 hours. Factor in commutes, showers, kids, flat tires, lawns to mow.......and your numbers unattainable for just about everyone who doesn't make a living running their own school.

Train smarter.

Couldn't agree more :) I would LOVE to train more than 6 and a half hours a week. If I'm lucky and the weather permits I can swim, which I also count as training. Of course, I'm just counting the physical ;) Any reading or thinking about martial arts, MA theory, or philosophy falls into the "recreation" category, but that's just because I love it so much.

I try to get at least 8 hours of sleep a night though I don't always. I know better than to try to tell my brain that Buddhist monks only need 4-5 hours of sleep. My brain and I didn't speek for weeks after that.

All kidding aside, a 40 hour workweek for me is like a vacation. I know better than to try taking a "real" vacation. Last time I did that my employees got hijacked onto other projects, right before a visit from the district manager, leaving my department in shambles. Yeah that was fun :mad:

[tattooedmonk]

Couldn't agree more :) I would LOVE to train more than 6 and a half hours a week. If I'm lucky and the weather permits I can swim, which I also count as training. Of course, I'm just counting the physical ;) Any reading or thinking about martial arts, MA theory, or philosophy falls into the "recreation" category, but that's just because I love it so much.

I try to get at least 8 hours of sleep a night though I don't always. I know better than to try to tell my brain that Buddhist monks only need 4-5 hours of sleep. My brain and I didn't speek for weeks after that.

All kidding aside, a 40 hour workweek for me is like a vacation. I know better than to try taking a "real" vacation. Last time I did that my employees got hijacked onto other projects, right before a visit from the district manager, leaving my department in shambles. Yeah that was fun :mad: then you are a hobbiest , you practice martial arts for recreation ,rather than to be a true martialartist..and this is cool ...more power to you !! what is your belt rank??

[BoulderDawg]

Well.....There's a lot of people that could train 16 hours a day and it wouldn't do any good. Then there are a few that could go for a half hour and get all they need.

There's a commercial out there showing Tiger Woods hitting golf balls in the rain.....When I first saw this I thought about Bobby Jones. He would be laughing at this commercial. Jones (possibly the best golfer who ever lived) only played on weekends.

[The Willow Sword]

Tatooedmonk? Ninthdrunk is definately NOT at brown belt level. How do i know this? well i just do.

he is a tad higher i think;)

oh and about the training thing? there IS such a thing as overtraining. working out too much and wasting your body away. I did it. i was in a bad way. when i taught for SD i was teaching almost everyday of the week(which meant i was working out 7 days a week for several hours a day) THEN i had to go and get training for the material i was learning on ONE of those days. It was too much and it showed. You CAN over work yourself. Anyone who says they would like to be training everyday for mutlitple hours in a day is full of it.

TWS

[tattooedmonk]

Tatooedmonk? Ninthdrunk is definately NOT at brown belt level. How do i know this? well i just do.

he is a tad higher i think;)

oh and about the training thing? there IS such a thing as overtraining. working out too much and wasting your body away. I did it. i was in a bad way. when i taught for SD i was teaching almost everyday of the week(which meant i was working out 7 days a week for several hours a day) THEN i had to go and get training for the material i was learning on ONE of those days. It was too much and it showed. You CAN over work yourself. Anyone who says they would like to be training everyday for mutlitple hours in a day is full of it.

TWS see this shows a great deal about how much you all read and comprehend .

I post something in response to specific questions and you all just jump to conclusions..


are you telling me his level of commitment training and hours is at a brown belt level even though he might be of higher rank? What business is that of yours ??

And I did not say that some people could not live up to these standards for specific and valid reasons...I understand this...

that is not the discussion here .

There is such thing as over training, but that is if you do not have the proper information, your are not remembering it correctly,and /or you are not applying properly .

.....now which is it???


Heres what I see...all of a sudden a bunch of you people are measuring yourselves up against a standard that I proposed, because you may or may not live up to it on any consistant basis or at all , you are getting all defensive.

Why is that??

Do not blame me for your short comings

a true master lives it every monent of their lives ....

your proficiancy , you see, is based on your time and effort

imagine I can not even do that,yet , but I am doing better than most of you , and that means that I am once step closer to that type of mastery.

you all talk about shaolin and this and that ,and you may practice it ,but you do not live it....

Shaolin is a sacred trust...

and most do not live up to that level of existance ,but I will spend the rest of my days living by the code of the Shaolin..

the biggest problem is that it was not meant to be business , something to be sold .....

now everyone thinks they just buy Shaolin...

quit taking it for granted and apply more of your time and effort to it and you will find that the standards that I proposed are not that unreasonable.

maybe not these specific ones but something closer to this than the average that has already been set, that is sub par...

and why is that??

you do not manage your time and effort properly. you are putting too much time in somethigs and not enough time in other. your are not putting enough effort in some thing and too much in others.

do you get it yet?

[tattooedmonk]

Well.....There's a lot of people that could train 16 hours a day and it wouldn't do any good. Then there are a few that could go for a half hour and get all they need.

There's a commercial out there showing Tiger Woods hitting golf balls in the rain.....When I first saw this I thought about Bobby Jones. He would be laughing at this commercial. Jones (possibly the best golfer who ever lived) only played on weekends. because they are learning , incorrect information, they remember it incorrectly , and or they apply it incorrectly ...

this second part I will say natural selection. I do not know the details to come to any conclusion about it otherwise...

[Judge Pen]

TTM, my way of life is not your way of life. If I have a very demanding job, household demands, family demands AND I find time in all of that to train something that I love and find dear (but only 8 to 10 hours physical) then am I JUST a hobbyist? Bullsh!t! It is still my way of life. Kung fu is a way of life for me. It is always milling around in my mind. I spend countless hours reading about it and comparing what I know to others. For someone who gets so caught up in the lack of teaching the philosophical underpinings of Taoism, Buddism and Confucinism you are so antagonistic and demending that YOUR way is the ONLY WAY. Try being less judgmental.

Flame me for my opinion all you want, but you bring much of this criticism on yourself.

And if you have trained as long and dillgently as you claim, you would have learned by now that belt rank is meaningless.

[Judge Pen]

As I posted, long time lurker. Judge Pen, I respect his approach to this discussion. Debate can be civil yet vigorous. There are passionate viewpoints concerning SD, and I respect that. Yet I think we can debate this in a civil manner. I pose a question to Judge Pen, who can discuss in a ciivil manner yet advocate his position. Do you ever wonder if you are beng taught many disparate forms without learning the real meaning behind them? Studying in SD gave me fullfillment, but did not take me to the next step. I was disappointed ultimately in the approach. Honestly, I have great affection for those who taught me, but I have developed serious questions about the methodology of the course of study.

I think that the curriculim in SD is designed to only give you a background in a certain set of material. What principles are taught from each bit of a seperate system do build on one another and compliment each of them, but often to the detriment of the individual style. I think that one should eventually pick a path and really focus on a particular set that they enjoy and that may mean looking to other sources. Many senior SD students have done this and there are SD masters that focus on a particular set and can give you the more in depth knowledge that you are looking for--then again there are many that simply employ the "jack of all trades" approach to martial arts. So, to answer your question, yes I think that the full meaning (I wouldn't use the word "real") is not always conveyed in SD at first. I think the next step is a journey that you chose to make on your own when you are ready.

[Judge Pen]

I'll be the first to admit that KC can come off as a bit abrupt from his posts, but I know the guy and let me say this about him: kung fu is a way of life for him, and he knows his stuff better than most here (myself included). You would be well advised to listen to him when he talks about training principles. You might learn a thing or two.

[Judge Pen]

You know, if I ever come into enough money to pay off my mortgage, my student loans, and make sure my family is taken care of, then I'd love to find some lonely hill and build a temple and train 12 hours a day (just like I work now). Until then, I guess i'll just be a hobbyist. :p

[The Willow Sword]

are you telling me his level of commitment training and hours is at a brown belt level even though he might be of higher rank? What business is that of yours ??


No that is not what i am saying TTM. I just KNOW ninthdrunk, ive trained with him AND i have taught him in the past. He is a good kid and i dont question his level of committment and dedication to training. i may not be a part of SD and i may not endorse the school or do their forms anymore but there are SOME within the organization that i respect regardless. Ninthdrunk is one of those people. I think that if you met him you would see his progress as a martial artist and if you crossed hands with him you'd be up against a brick wall. As to his rank? i would imagine that he is 3rd degree BB by now,but i could be wrong. HEY i could also be wrong in that i KNOW ninthdrunk,LOL. Im pretty sure i know who he is, now i am not so sure:( . its been a while since i have conversed with him.

anyway TTM, your writings dont read very "masterfull" you seem to have more of an ego than a "shaolin mindset":rolleyes:

As ever,TWS

[The Willow Sword]

I'll be the first to admit that KC can come off as a bit abrupt from his posts, but I know the guy and let me say this about him: kung fu is a way of life for him, and he knows his stuff better than most here (myself included). You would be well advised to listen to him when he talks about training principles. You might learn a thing or two.

Oh brother:rolleyes:


:p :D TWS

[CaptinPickAxe]

Don't listen to Judge Pen...he's really KKM;)

[BlueTravesty]

then you are a hobbiest , you practice martial arts for recreation ,rather than to be a true martialartist..and this is cool ...more power to you !! what is your belt rank??

Indeed I am; by circumstance, not by choice. I think I was born a couple hundred years too late to become a "real" career martial artist, but then there's always NHB fighting (which I'm just not ready for.)
Besides what would the wife say if I told her "hey honey, I'm gonna go make a living with my fists and feet!"?

As for my rank, I'm a lowly gold belt, which is the 3rd belt in our system (I count white, since we have to test for it.)
Here's hoping I can make the next rank test... should be a couple of months coming. I don't really care about the color of a sash, but I DO want to learn Chung Kuen... that form looks fun.

[BM2]

And if you have trained as long and dillgently as you claim, you would have learned by now that belt rank is meaningless.[/QUOTE]

:p ;)

[Ralphie]

TTM seems like he lives in lala land, and is delusional at the very least. Hell, he said that he patterned his life after the Kung Fu character portrayed by David Caradine. Why respect anything he says, including his classifications and his Taoist, Buddhist, and Confuscionist philiosophies (not religion)?

[kwaichang]

Well TWS I guess you dont agree with Judge Pen, let me see how many years has it been since we have seen each other 5-6. ? Well what ever your opinion you may have it but as always I am willing to give you a match when ever you like. As far as what JP wrote he flatters me, as I know what I think and how I feel but he and I have not really talked about my way of life that much, that is his own opinion but I thank him for it. I also would like to apologize to the others if I seem abrupt I try not to be but as we all have different opinions we should be allowed to express them freely w/o reprimand. KC

[godzillakungfu]

Well.....There's a lot of people that could train 16 hours a day and it wouldn't do any good. Then there are a few that could go for a half hour and get all they need.

There's a commercial out there showing Tiger Woods hitting golf balls in the rain.....When I first saw this I thought about Bobby Jones. He would be laughing at this commercial. Jones (possibly the best golfer who ever lived) only played on weekends.
Yes, a commercial.:rolleyes:

[BoulderDawg]

Yep! Believe it or not some us do watch TV....and are not afraid to admit it.

And even a few of us actually work for a living....Really!:D

I've tried the up at 5, go to bed at midnight routine once or twice........I'll leave that up to the people who enjoy only getting 5 hours of sleep a night!

[ninthdrunk]

Just for the record, I'm a second...should have been coming up on my test for fourth by the "time limit" standards, but I like to take my time, and heck, life gets in the way a lot when your young and searching for you path. I've been doing this system for 10 years now. I should have tested up a while ago, but that just wasn't my thing for awhile...that and I was young and put it off for other things. Truth of the matter, I'm better for having taken my time. Better understanding of material and whatnot.

TWS, oh, I assure you, you still know me. If anything, I'm a lot more grown up, but still the same lovable kid. Oh, and I still very much love putting people into the brick wall. Be it figuratively or literally! Oh, and thanks for the kind words. Respect might not mean a lot to some, but it does to me, and coming from you and given your situation, it's nice to know that there are still nice thoughts regardless of our martial arts decisions/situations.

TTM, I'm curious as to why you would think that I'm only a brown belt.

KC, I agree that you're one of the most dedicated people I know. Everytime I've had the priviledge of sparring you, or being in a class with (or taught) by you, I've come away with nothing but utmost respect. While I'm not in Austin right now, I know your presence is sorely missed.

[The Willow Sword]

Oh lighten up KC, im just "takin the p!ss" as the britts say.;) I dont doubt your level of knowledge of what you study and practice now. I also know of your PT skills.
consider me a semi-friendly antagonist KC. I may not like you KC but i do respect you. or maybe i said i didnt in the past. well maybe i did. hell who knows i cant remember anymore. as for a match? well KC i dont do that anymore, besides, "if you are seeking tournament skills id advise you to look elsewhere for your training, most of what you will learn here is TOO deadly for tournaments".:rolleyes: anyway your elders prolly wouldnt support you in the challenge anyway. hehe or maybe they would make an exception in my case eh?;) at any rate KC i wouldnt want to waste your time and you certainly wouldnt want to end up in jail;) .

Toodle doo,,,TWS

[kwaichang]

I know ive been there . Thanks TWS I think. Anyway what is it called when one scores on another well you did IPPON KC:)

[tattooedmonk]

TTM, my way of life is not your way of life. If I have a very demanding job, household demands, family demands AND I find time in all of that to train something that I love and find dear (but only 8 to 10 hours physical) then am I JUST a hobbyist? Bullsh!t! It is still my way of life. Kung fu is a way of life for me. It is always milling around in my mind. I spend countless hours reading about it and comparing what I know to others. For someone who gets so caught up in the lack of teaching the philosophical underpinings of Taoism, Buddism and Confucinism you are so antagonistic and demending that YOUR way is the ONLY WAY. Try being less judgmental.

Flame me for my opinion all you want, but you bring much of this criticism on yourself.

And if you have trained as long and dillgently as you claim, you would have learned by now that belt rank is meaningless.I did not say that belt rank mattered, but a certain standard should be lived up to and a certain commitment should be made at certainbelt levels. it appears that this series of post has brought out a sore point in all of you. if you actually felt confident in your practices and the way that you lived your lives you would not be this defensive.

[tattooedmonk]

No that is not what i am saying TTM. I just KNOW ninthdrunk, ive trained with him AND i have taught him in the past. He is a good kid and i dont question his level of committment and dedication to training. i may not be a part of SD and i may not endorse the school or do their forms anymore but there are SOME within the organization that i respect regardless. Ninthdrunk is one of those people. I think that if you met him you would see his progress as a martial artist and if you crossed hands with him you'd be up against a brick wall. As to his rank? i would imagine that he is 3rd degree BB by now,but i could be wrong. HEY i could also be wrong in that i KNOW ninthdrunk,LOL. Im pretty sure i know who he is, now i am not so sure:( . its been a while since i have conversed with him.

anyway TTM, your writings dont read very "masterfull" you seem to have more of an ego than a "shaolin mindset":rolleyes:

As ever,TWSI could careless what his rank is what metter is his time and effort....this other crap I will not even bother with......well if you see it as ego then...that is your perception

[tattooedmonk]

Just for the record, I'm a second...should have been coming up on my test for fourth by the "time limit" standards, but I like to take my time, and heck, life gets in the way a lot when your young and searching for you path. I've been doing this system for 10 years now. I should have tested up a while ago, but that just wasn't my thing for awhile...that and I was young and put it off for other things. Truth of the matter, I'm better for having taken my time. Better understanding of material and whatnot.

TWS, oh, I assure you, you still know me. If anything, I'm a lot more grown up, but still the same lovable kid. Oh, and I still very much love putting people into the brick wall. Be it figuratively or literally! Oh, and thanks for the kind words. Respect might not mean a lot to some, but it does to me, and coming from you and given your situation, it's nice to know that there are still nice thoughts regardless of our martial arts decisions/situations.

TTM, I'm curious as to why you would think that I'm only a brown belt.

KC, I agree that you're one of the most dedicated people I know. Everytime I've had the priviledge of sparring you, or being in a class with (or taught) by you, I've come away with nothing but utmost respect. While I'm not in Austin right now, I know your presence is sorely missed.I do not care it was illuded to based on my proposed standards...

[tattooedmonk]

And if you have trained as long and dillgently as you claim, you would have learned by now that belt rank is meaningless.

:p ;)[/QUOTE]never said that rank mattered ..there just needs to be greater guidlines and standards

[tattooedmonk]

this is the exact reason why the people in the outside world do not accept ShaolinDo ...being shaolin and claiming temple lineage puts you up there on a higher level of expectation ....so do not blame me for your short comings ....

[kwaichang]

So, what are the standards you propose ? KC:)

[ninthdrunk]

TTM, actually you did ask what my rank was. After I offered up my training time, you said, "what are you about brown belt level??" TWS was just responding 'cause I was taking too long getting to it (Saturdays are looong kung fu days for me).

So, I was just wondering why you would think I was a brown belt based on my training time. Or was it something else?

[BentMonk]

Since when does the amount hours you spend training measure anything more than how much you train? It is NOT a measure of how "shaolin" you are. I spend roughly six hours a week training. As JP said, I have a very demanding life outside of the kwoon. The "shaolin" mindset is part of who I am as a person. IMO the "shaolin" mindset is more about being honest, having integrity, a respect for all life, and a respect for people from ALL walks of life. I may not spend all day training, but I bust my a$$ every minute that I am training. Ask anyone who has trained or crossed hands with me, and I'm sure they will tell you that I am as hard core dedicated as anyone else who doesn't get paid to train. I am also very certain that I am far from being the only person who trains hard despite limited training time, and a busy life. Peace, Love, and Happy Training to ALL. :D

[kungfujunky]

tatooed monk how are you any different then grandmaster lawrence day who took what knowledge shaolin do (chinese shaolin center) gave him and ran away to do his own thing?

you make a lot of claims and bold statements but in the end you took from this art and are now giving it to others...the way you THINK it should be done.

i dont see any real honor in that my man. i see someone who couldnt hack it the way it was set up and now all he does is bash others for how they live and train.

good job!

have fun with your training and for those in denver csc ill see you wednesday!

[brucereiter]

I may not spend all day training, but I bust my a$$ every minute that I am training.

i must agree with the above quote! with my training i have some days where i train 5 6 7 hours (a few times per month ...)

most days 1-2 hours of training time but on some days i might only take 10 minutes to train but the point is i use those 10 minutes wisley ... i think it is quality over quantity that is important and also having a consistant schedule you keep to so that you never go to many days with out rotating through all of your material. and this brings up another point their are some forms that are not very important to me so i may only do them once per week just for memory but their are others i value more and do every day and really dig deep to understand them i think this is upto each student.

martial arts should only be a part of your life! your family for example is more important ... balance is one lesson we learn in fighting right??? we can also apply it to life ...

[Royal Dragon]

So, not haveing read anything, have we decided if Shaolin Do is legit or not yet?

[brucereiter]

So, not haveing read anything, have we decided if Shaolin Do is legit or not yet?

Being in accordance with established or accepted patterns and standards is so subjective in the world of cma ....

shaolin do is for real is my answer to the original post.

what real is you can decide for your self.

[Golden Tiger]

this is the exact reason why the people in the outside world do not accept ShaolinDo ...being shaolin and claiming temple lineage puts you up there on a higher level of expectation ....so do not blame me for your short comings ....



I think that should be "our" short comings....:D remember where you come from TTM...

[CaptinPickAxe]

So, let me get this straight and correct me if I'm wrong.

TattooedMonk is an ex-shaolin-do'er who hates Shaolin-Do....but is teacing a derivative of it?

I'll reserve my comments on this subject until my question is answered.

I'm an Ex-Shaolin Do student. I wasn't happy with my training, but I'm beyond b*tching about if it's real or not. As far as I'm concerned, any "Shaolin Gong Fu" you learn in the states is watered down or completely fake. I think 90% of American's don't have the time to live the Monk lifestyle that Shaolin requires, there for they revise it to suit american standards. I'm not saying it's effective or not because there is no way to tell if I'll be able to defeat all Shaolin users.

What I do support is maybe augmenting Shaolin with some other styles to make it more potent. I'm in the mindset that mixing martial arts is what MA is all about. Why should one pigeon hole themselves into one style that claims to be complete, but leaves you wanting on some fronts. My aim is to become the most complete, well-rounded fighter I can be. That being said, I believe the only way to be such a fighter is to experience everything ALL martial arts have to offer. I don't mean take classes from all the arts, but form bonds and alliances with different styles as to learn from each other.

I hope y'all can agree. As for Shaolin do being real or not...the horse is dead...stop beating it!

[Flying-Monkey]

I vote that it is not for real. My vote is based on what they claim they are.

[tattooedmonk]

So, let me get this straight and correct me if I'm wrong.

TattooedMonk is an ex-shaolin-do'er who hates Shaolin-Do....but is teacing a derivative of it?

I'll reserve my comments on this subject until my question is answered.

I'm an Ex-Shaolin Do student. I wasn't happy with my training, but I'm beyond b*tching about if it's real or not. As far as I'm concerned, any "Shaolin Gong Fu" you learn in the states is watered down or completely fake. I think 90% of American's don't have the time to live the Monk lifestyle that Shaolin requires, there for they revise it to suit american standards. I'm not saying it's effective or not because there is no way to tell if I'll be able to defeat all Shaolin users.

What I do support is maybe augmenting Shaolin with some other styles to make it more potent. I'm in the mindset that mixing martial arts is what MA is all about. Why should one pigeon hole themselves into one style that claims to be complete, but leaves you wanting on some fronts. My aim is to become the most complete, well-rounded fighter I can be. That being said, I believe the only way to be such a fighter is to experience everything ALL martial arts have to offer. I don't mean take classes from all the arts, but form bonds and alliances with different styles as to learn from each other.

I hope y'all can agree. As for Shaolin do being real or not...the horse is dead...stop beating it!I am no longer affiliated ..and I do not hate SD..actually quite the opposite.I teach what I have learned over my 25year martialart career...but it is mostly shaolin ( from shaolin do and some nonshaolin do).Iam not claiming to be some grandmaster or make any reference to shaolin do.

anybody who knows anything about Shaolin, knows that it is a mixed martialart ..over the long history of Shaolin they invited martialartist from all overto different summits to share their martialarts skills .they took all the best techniques out of all the styles and made knew ones and made additional modifications to old ones.

the problem is that no matter what style you do in shaolin do it all looks the same ...like karate.. all the training methods are out dated and are ineffective in teaching a student / practitioner how to use the art for self defense purposes.

for the most part all the pieces of the puzzle are there ...but because we are americans it should be shown how to put it all together. but it is not. it is fragmented...the old ancient chinese secret heh??

my first instructor brought in instructors from other arts to supplement our training when we worked on down and ground training and chi na he brought in jujitsu and judo people, when we did kicking muay thai and tae kwon do , punching bxers and shoto kand ..stuuf like this ...

I do not undertsand why it is that Sd claims to be the way of shaolin but do not seem to follow this way of shaolin!! I believe you are correct in this view. if you did this one the csc half..you would get so busted...why??

[godzillakungfu]

No one knows the "true" way of Shaolin.

The way of shaolin is like the way of religion.

It is open to interpretation from any number of sources. You take what you need and live your life the way you want.

[kwaichang]

The Fox that chases 2 rabbits catches neither. How will you know if an art is effective if one is not dedicated to it 100%. The Shaolin Monks used the arts in life and death situations therefore they must work. It is the American way to look for the easy way. Try being totally dedicated to something and see where it takes you. IMO it is a copout to cross train like you are saying. Be dedicated to the Tao/Way and see what becomes of it. KC:)

[CaptinPickAxe]

The Fox that chases 2 rabbits catches neither. How will you know if an art is effective if one is not dedicated to it 100%. The Shaolin Monks used the arts in life and death situations therefore they must work. It is the American way to look for the easy way. Try being totally dedicated to something and see where it takes you. IMO it is a copout to cross train like you are saying. Be dedicated to the Tao/Way and see what becomes of it. KC:)

Get off your spiritual mumbo jumbo, tool.

I think it's a cop out to pigeon hole yourself into one art, and turn away what everything else has to offer. You're under entirely too much mysticism if you think that every art is complete or you think you'll get by with just one of the ranges. I am dedicated to what I do and, let me tell you, it's not an impossible task. You just have to have the discipline to focus until you are proficent in what you do. I don't see it as 3 seperate arts, I see it as the 1 art that works for me... MY art that I gained through trial and error.

If you are so closed minded to turn down lessons from other arts and add them to your repitior, then I feel sorry for you. You miss out on a lot.

But hey, do what you CAN do...

[unkokusai]

Get off your spiritual mumbo jumbo, tool.
...


LOL

Brilliant!


:D

[BentMonk]

It is foolish to turn away from knowledge of any kind. To assume that one has found the one true source for any type of knowledge, is to began sinking into deluded ignorance. There will always be some one, some where who has discovered something you did not. This fact does not make any one person better than another. It simply emphasizes the need for everyone to keep their minds open, and their egos under control. "The human mind once expanded, never regains it's original form." Peace.

[SDJerry]

It is foolish to turn away from knowledge of any kind.

I agree... evolution is nature's quality control. The strong move forward while the weak, who are unable to adapt to change, get left behind. MA should be no different... it should be a living art. I think some people spend too much time trying to replicate a time that has already past. Look at all the great information that is at our fingertips now with the internet, books, and the ability to travel all over the world.

I study Shaolin-Do and I'm proud to say it. At my school there are no politics, no mystical BS, it stinks like sweat, and a lot of hard work goes on there. We openly discuss techniques and application on a regular basis and do not shy away ANY knowledge. It's a great school!

[brucereiter]

I agree... evolution is nature's quality control. The strong move forward while the weak, who are unable to adapt to change, get left behind. MA should be no different... it should be a living art. I think some people spend too much time trying to replicate a time that has already past.


hello all,

i like the above statements ... it reminds me of a few things from the book secrets from the temple. (i know ... dont start ... just take it for what it is ...)


page 23
"shaolin do is the dynamic art form which evolved from a 1500 year tradition"

"shaolin do seeks to preserve the essence of an ancient art while maintaining the original idea: to defend ones self in a efficient and effective manner"

[kwaichang]

Well OK Pick then you can hire a General Surgeon to do your Brain Surgery and let the Neuro Surgeons just watch as they scramble your brain to mush. I never said I did not cross train " in the Past" but I feel to do something as well as possible takes total dedication. I tell ya what why dont you grapple for a year or two then try kicking against a good Tae Kwon Do guy your kicks will be ****zen. Wake up and do what you want. I dont care I was there when I was young too. KC

[BoulderDawg]

I agree... evolution is nature's quality control. The strong move forward while the weak, who are unable to adapt to change, get left behind. MA should be no different... it should be a living art. I think some people spend too much time trying to replicate a time that has already past. Look at all the great information that is at our fingertips now with the internet, books, and the ability to travel all over the world.

I study Shaolin-Do and I'm proud to say it. At my school there are no politics, no mystical BS, it stinks like sweat, and a lot of hard work goes on there. We openly discuss techniques and application on a regular basis and do not shy away ANY knowledge. It's a great school!

Good Post!

Look at old movies from 70-80 years ago of people playing golf, tennis, boxing....whatever. Does it look like the same activity as today? No. And the same is true in the martial arts. We are constanly changing and evolving.

I mean don't you think that if the old masters had access to things like video tape, internet, whatever a 1,000 years ago they would have used it?

[unkokusai]

Good Post!

Look at old movies from 70-80 years ago of people playing golf, tennis, boxing....whatever. Does it look like the same activity as today?

Holy crap! Is this KOTF?

[humbleman]

This thread is corny. I hope it will be deleted soon.a tale of a fateful trip... Captain Bly and Gilligan + various assorted castaways. (wasn't there a band by that name?...) Anyway, Gilligan became disgruntled as Captain Bly refused to teach Gilligan what he needed to know to become a crusty old salt. As is the habit of many crusty old salts who feel that "I got mine, ***** you. Anyway, Gilligan and the castaways got tired of this, and set Captain Bly adrift in a rowboat. Wait, no, they tied him to an iceberg. As the iceberg drifted south, Captain Bly became a Polliwog. In the warmer waters, the iceberg melted and Captain Bly then had to learn something himself-how to swim and avoid sharks. :D

[humbleman]

Anyway, Captain Bly eventually made it to an island, which he named Clench, after his old first mate. And it was then that Captain Bly made a remarkable discovery. He found that all that swimming had given him the ability to bust coconuts with his bare hands. Which also provided him with sustanance. He decided, with little else to do, that he would dedicate his life to the art of busting coconuts bare handed.:p

[humbleman]

and Captain Blys skills with coconut busting became an obsession. His only focus became busting coconuts, and was so intense that he failed to notice the many ships that passed by. His sense of isolation grew to the point that in the later years, he became something of a joke to passing ships and boats. They used to come close to shore as he awoke at sunrise for another coconut busting session and would hail him on the bullhorn, "hey, Bly! Are you nuts, or what?" But our good captain didn't even hear him, such was his dedication to perfecting the new art of Coconut-Tao. They say if you pass Clench on the night of a full moon, to this day, you can still hear the sharp sound of coconuts cracking...:p

[BentMonk]

I agree... evolution is nature's quality control. The strong move forward while the weak, who are unable to adapt to change, get left behind. MA should be no different... it should be a living art. I think some people spend too much time trying to replicate a time that has already past. Look at all the great information that is at our fingertips now with the internet, books, and the ability to travel all over the world.

I study Shaolin-Do and I'm proud to say it. At my school there are no politics, no mystical BS, it stinks like sweat, and a lot of hard work goes on there. We openly discuss techniques and application on a regular basis and do not shy away ANY knowledge. It's a great school!

True. Good post man.

[kwaichang]

Then one day a ship wrecked and they didnt have any food so Capt Bly had to save them from themselves and break coconuts so they could eat and not starve. None of the passangers could, so they asked Capt Bly to teach them because they knew deep down that if they didnt learn they would die and they had to dedicate themselves to do it so as not to die . But those who did not dedicate them selves did die. KC

[Learn]

I'm not interested in ****ing contests. I could say that the filipino style I have been studying is the most realistic combatic style I have ever studied, and I do believe that, but that would not contribute to this discussion. There's always another. Training hour discussion aside, I am interested in discussing SD. The Judge had an excellent post about this. Correct me if I am wrong, but it was essentially that SD students are exposed to much, and then left to more specialized study with teachers of a particular system. I spent several years in SD and was not taught that way. I tested several times under ST. I was never encouraged to train with a dedicated Mantiss teacher, though I did. And I learned that what I learned in SD was way off base with regard to Mantiss. As I said, SD did very good things for me, but I now have questions about the learn forms from every style approach. I recently watched a video of forms I did, and while they may have been acceptable for belt testing, from what I know of real weapons usage, I learned nothing. It's difficult for me because SD training was such a positive in my life.

[kwaichang]

Thank you for your honesty. You seem disapointed that the Mantis you learned in SD was not what you were taught else where . I too studied Tang Lang For 10 years prior to SD it was different but I do not believe that Sd's Mantis is not real as i gained alot from both. I do not know what you learned but perhaps it is useful in another way. Although it is different it could still be "real " Mantis. Many think or seem to think that just because it doesnt look like what we expect it to look like it cant be real. Also because SD has so much it cant be real. However, There is no validity in that concept.
The arts have changed so much, especially Shaolin arts, that to say that something doesnt look the same as another is no way to validate or discredit a style or art. Many try though. Also the source of power what ever the name given is based upon mathematics Physics and bio mechanics primarily. Many have said that "SD Chen Tai Chi" is not real Chen because it "does not follow the "known current " concepts of Chen. again I say so what does anyone think the Chen of today looks anything like the original Chen Tai Chi. Maybe a little but not exactly so that kills that idea. I could go on but I feel if you read many of the posts here you will see many IDEAS of what people THINK. But do not know for sure. KC

[Golden Tiger]

Correct me if I am wrong, but it was essentially that SD students are exposed to much, and then left to more specialized study with teachers of a particular system. I spent several years in SD and was not taught that way. I tested several times under ST. I was never encouraged to train with a dedicated Mantiss teacher, though I did. And I learned that what I learned in SD was way off base with regard to Mantiss.

Excellent post Learn. I am not sure which JP post you are refering to(he has so many excellent ones:D ) but I think that just about all the long time students specialize to some extent once they get a few forms in the choosen style that they like. And if they feel their knowledge is lacking, they will seek out more and more information. Thats perfectly logical.

One statement you made, which is made by many but you seem willing to actually discuss it, was that what you learned of Mantis in SD was "off base" with regard to Mantis. If you wouldn't mind, and have the time, could you explain this a little better? We constantly here that SD(fill in the blank) is not real (fill in the blank) but hardly ever get much more than that. I for one, am interested in your take on the difference.

Also, I will agree with you that the weapons forms are not taught as well as they should be and in a r/l situation, not very effective. Then again, unless we start teaching tactical handgun training, I doubt that any thing would be..:D

[Flying-Monkey]

The drunken sword I watched showed little understanding of the sword. Especially, There is a lack of understanding in the wrist.

[Flying-Monkey]

The same goes for the spear vs broadsword.

The woman with the broadsword started with the sword in the right hand.
She showed a lack of understanding of proper attacks and defenses.
Her left hand movement was wrong.

The man with spear was the same.

He showed a lack of understanding of the weapon all together.
His attacks and defenses were non-sense.

There was a website with more forms. There were styles on that site that I didn't know, but i can easy see that they were wrong.

If a guy says he does wing chun and starts doing a bunch of jump spinning kicks and long swinging CLF punches. (he is not doing wing chun)

[Golden Tiger]

The drunken sword I watched showed little understanding of the sword. Especially, There is a lack of understanding in the wrist.

How so?

The woman with the broadsword started with the sword in the right hand.

I haven't seen the vid in question but of the forms I know, all but one start in the left hand. In the sword vs. spear, there is an opening, then a pause, then the meat of the form. Perhaps the vid started after the pause.

Her left hand movement was wrong.

How so?

The man with spear was the same.

He showed a lack of understanding of the weapon all together.
His attacks and defenses were non-sense.

How so?


There was a website with move forms. There were styles on that site that I didn't know, but i can easy see that they were wrong.

Sorry, but I don't understand this statement.. Whats a "move forms"? Also, can you easily explain why they were wrong?


And thinks in advance for your opinion FM

[Flying-Monkey]

Sorry I meant "more".

The straight sword woman wrist seemed very stiff. Her strikes were not done correctly.

The left hand of the broadsword woman wasn't really moving properly with the sword hand.

The spear man's was just poking the spear out (often with one hand). He would leave the spear extended while the woman attacked and dragged it backwards. He wasn't using the basic blocks the someone learns with the demo the spear.

Plus, NO STANCES. I am not talking about the blending of stances because the person is in motion.

There was a site with a lot of SD forms, but I can't find it anymore.

If you want more detail, PM me your number and I will call and talk to you about it.

[Golden Tiger]

Thank you very much Flying Monkey. At least now, when I look at the videos, I will be able to see if what you think is bad..is bad.

If you want more detail, PM me your number and I will call and talk to you about it.


Not sure about that, you being in Japan and all but if anyone every wants to discuss any thing in a more real time setting, I usually have yahoo messenger on through out the day. Feel free to say hi at "Goldentiger2112". Please though, no p3nis enlargement spam.:D

[The Willow Sword]

When you lie about your lineage and make outlandish claims to that effect it destroys any credability you have regdardless of whether or not your system is good or effective.when you claim to practice CMA and it is clearly more JMA it also detsroys credability regardless. People want authenticity, they want to be able to be at a place that has a reputable back ground. People ALSO want to be able to actually LEARN the techniques and fighting applications to the forms they are learning.they also want to learn what they came there for(TCMA) What they DONT want is to learn a bunch of forms, train in only a couple of applications for each form that are forgotten anyway because you have to get ready to learn the next form for belt testing.

and please dont get me started on the specialized training. this mentality of "well you get alot of material and Then you can specialize with the teachers who are specialized in the special system that YOU want to learn. Bullsh!T. i wanted to specialize in bagua and hsing yi. i learned the SD form on both and only got a couple of applications to each. no real drills no specialization in anything, not much anyway. and i wasnt about to take a plane to go seek out Eric smith because HE is supposed to be the "internalist" of the Sd realm.

Sd doesnt have these "specialized" instructors floating around at the school just waiting to take you to a corner of the room and teach you what you want to learn. No you have to do the whole thing and waste your time learn useless after useless form. and when you DO ask to get some specialized training you are told to go figure it out for yourself. is this how a school and a system should be run? i think not.

yes martial arts evolve but there is a legitamate history and a transmission of viable information from generation to generation. Techniques and applications evolve, FORMS stay as they are(unless you are inventing a new style and even THEN the new style is taught and kept CONSISTANT) You dont get this consistancy at SD. I remember once when i went to a seminar in Lexington and i was a lower rank belt and i was having some trouble with one of the forms and i asked one of the senior instructors to assist me and he showed me something completely different then what i had learned down in texas. i thought to myself" okay so different things are taught at other SD schools, i thought things were supposed to remain consistant, guess not".

TWS

[Golden Tiger]

:rolleyes: yawwnnnnn....oh, sorry. Did you say something TWS?

[Judge Pen]

Excellent post Learn. I am not sure which JP post you are refering to(he has so many excellent ones:D ) but I think that just about all the long time students specialize to some extent once they get a few forms in the choosen style that they like. And if they feel their knowledge is lacking, they will seek out more and more information. Thats perfectly logical.

I think Learn was referring to this exchange:

As I posted, long time lurker. Judge Pen, I respect his approach to this discussion. Debate can be civil yet vigorous. There are passionate viewpoints concerning SD, and I respect that. Yet I think we can debate this in a civil manner. I pose a question to Judge Pen, who can discuss in a ciivil manner yet advocate his position. Do you ever wonder if you are beng taught many disparate forms without learning the real meaning behind them? Studying in SD gave me fullfillment, but did not take me to the next step. I was disappointed ultimately in the approach. Honestly, I have great affection for those who taught me, but I have developed serious questions about the methodology of the course of study.

I think that the curriculim in SD is designed to only give you a background in a certain set of material. What principles are taught from each bit of a seperate system do build on one another and compliment each of them, but often to the detriment of the individual style. I think that one should eventually pick a path and really focus on a particular set that they enjoy and that may mean looking to other sources. Many senior SD students have done this and there are SD masters that focus on a particular set and can give you the more in depth knowledge that you are looking for--then again there are many that simply employ the "jack of all trades" approach to martial arts. So, to answer your question, yes I think that the full meaning (I wouldn't use the word "real") is not always conveyed in SD at first. I think the next step is a journey that you chose to make on your own when you are ready.

Anyway, I think that many SD students have to look elsewhere to supplement their training in a specific area that interests them since few of them have access to a teacher in SD that has taken the time to focus on a particular style. I think that Most SD teachers are a "jack of all trades" type. They learn the material that is taught out but don't specialize in one particular system.

[The Willow Sword]

if you have to go outside of your school to get training that you are not getting in the "most comprehensive martial art in the World"school, then what does that say about the school in general? huh?

:cool: TWS

[Golden Tiger]

if you have to go outside of your school to get training that you are not getting in the "most comprehensive martial art in the World"school, then what does that say about the school in general?

If someone is not capable or intelegent enough to read the dictionary, is it the books fault?


Lucky for me, I have never had to go outside for training. I didn't sit and wait for it to be spoon fed, I practiced the moves over and over until I got it.

Howdy JP..thanks for the reply.

[MasterKiller]

If someone is not capable or intelegent enough to read the dictionary, is it the books fault?


Lucky for me, I have never had to go outside for training. I didn't sit and wait for it to be spoon fed, I practiced the moves over and over until I got it.

Howdy JP..thanks for the reply.


If I bought some encyclopedias but can't find the information I need in them, I'd point the finger at the publisher, not myself. You could fault me for being stupid enough to believe the publisher when they called their books "comprehensive," but it's not my fault that the books are unusable.

My thinking is that if someone is supposed to be teaching me how to fight, they should teach me how to fight. Anything I do extra on my own time should compliment what was already shown, but with proper instruction I should be able to reasonably apply every technique I was shown without having to think about it on a mountain top for 2 years...

[Judge Pen]

Heck, I'd consider reading outside books, comparing forms to others outside the style, and even chatting up others on KFO outside research. It all goes back to furthering one's knowedge about a particular topic.

[kungfujunky]

you cant teach someone a form..show them the application of the moves and poof they can fight

YOU (the student) have to practice the moves..you have to invest in loss and take some lumps in sparring before you can say you can fight

the issue i think people have with shaolin do is their brains cant take in all the material taught and then apply it all.

YOU have to break the forms down and try to use them. the instrucotr cant force you to do that

[MasterKiller]

Heck, I'd consider reading outside books, comparing forms to others outside the style, and even chatting up others on KFO outside research. It all goes back to furthering one's knowedge about a particular topic.

Word to that. But I don't agree with the idea that it's the student's job to figure out the forms. Personally, I think a lot of teachers do that because they are afraid to admit they don't really know what the movements are intended to do.

[kungfujunky]

Word to that. But I don't agree with the idea that it's the student's job to figure out the forms. Personally, I think a lot of teachers do that because they are afraid to admit they don't really know what the movements are intended to do.



in every school ive practiced at the teacher broke down the form move by move for us..no matter what the form

not sure where you got that info or if maybe you had a teacher that just didnt have it down but on the whole application is taught for every from ive been shown thus far

[Judge Pen]

My thinking is that if someone is supposed to be teaching me how to fight, they should teach me how to fight. Anything I do extra on my own time should compliment what was already shown, but with proper instruction I should be able to reasonably apply every technique I was shown without having to think about it on a mountain top for 2 years...
And I think SD does this well. I can reasonbly apply every technique I have (within reason--some I change the body mechanics on some to fit me and others I haven't put enough thought in.

Now if I want to KNOW mantis or Pa Kua or whatever, then why would I do nothing but the version I have leanred? I would do it to the point where I knew it, inside and out, and understood the principles that were taught, but I would be well advised to seek out others who train, compare notes, forms, theories, applications etc. To know my own material I have to know how it is similar and different when compared to others. What's wrong with that?

[Judge Pen]

Word to that. But I don't agree with the idea that it's the student's job to figure out the forms. Personally, I think a lot of teachers do that because they are afraid to admit they don't really know what the movements are intended to do.

My teachers do break down forms with very specific applicaitons. Sometimes its well after I have the movements of the form down and sometimes its while I'm learning a movement for the first time. I get their take on the application, but its not the only way and it may not be the most applicable way for me. That's up to me to toy around with.

And I think there is some of (I don't really know, but I'm afraid to admit it) attitude in TMA in general, but everytime I've asked my teacher about a move that may seem silly at first they will educate me on a way that move may be applied in a combat situation. Whether I or anyone else that I know have the physical skills and timing to acutally make it work are another debate all together. . . . .

[MasterKiller]

And I think there is some of (I don't really know, but I'm afraid to admit it) attitude in TMA in general, but everytime I've asked my teacher about a move that may seem silly at first they will educate me on a way that move may be applied in a combat situation. Whether I or anyone else that I know have the physical skills and timing to acutally make it work are another debate all together. . . . .


Well, that's really another pet peeve of mine that is not particular to SD. Some moevements in forms are so outrageous that they could never reasonably be used in combat. I hate when someone pulls an explanation out of their @ss with a "maybe it was used like this when people used to train harder" excuse. Some movements have no martial value. Anyone who knows the history of CMA knows a lot of forms have acrobatics that were designed for shock and awe and not for practicality.

[Judge Pen]

Well, that's really another pet peeve of mine that is not particular to SD. Some moevements in forms are so outrageous that they could never reasonably be used in combat. I hate when someone pulls an explanation out of their @ss with a "maybe it was used like this when people used to train harder" excuse. Some movements have no martial value. Anyone who knows the history of CMA knows a lot of forms have acrobatics that were designed for shock and awe and not for practicality.

You're right that some moves ARE part of the training. Others are aestics only. But I can't say that someone gifted couldn't apply a technique that I can't so I take all of that with a grain (or more) of salt.

Certian techniques take a deal of conditioning and atleticism to do. Trying to perfect that technique improves ones speed, strength, explosivness, body awareness, timing, etc to a point that all of their material improves because of it. Personally, I'll never throw a spinning hook kick in a fight, but I know there are people that could make that work for them in the reight circumstance even if I couldn't. But I practice them (and butterfly kicks, and all manners of other stuff) because its challenging.

If all I wanted to do was work on fighting, then I'd quick kung fu and do boxing or MMA.

[humbleman]

I'm not interested in ****ing contests. I could say that the filipino style I have been studying is the most realistic combatic style I have ever studied, and I do believe that, but that would not contribute to this discussion. There's always another. Training hour discussion aside, I am interested in discussing SD. The Judge had an excellent post about this. Correct me if I am wrong, but it was essentially that SD students are exposed to much, and then left to more specialized study with teachers of a particular system. I spent several years in SD and was not taught that way. I tested several times under ST. I was never encouraged to train with a dedicated Mantiss teacher, though I did. And I learned that what I learned in SD was way off base with regard to Mantiss. As I said, SD did very good things for me, but I now have questions about the learn forms from every style approach. I recently watched a video of forms I did, and while they may have been acceptable for belt testing, from what I know of real weapons usage, I learned nothing. It's difficult for me because SD training was such a positive in my life.Apparently you never encountered Sensei Brian. Brian was Mantis personified. He even looked-er-I always hated when he went into a Mantis stance when we were sparring, because I knew I was in for pain the likes of which I would never encounter in any street situation. Being run through a meat grinder would hurt a lot less than being taken apart methodically and mercilessly by that man. Which probably explains why he learned the inner secrets of S.D. mantis. When not in combat, you couldn't find a man with a more gentle disposition and big heart. I'm not saying your experience with S.D. mantis isn't true, I'm sure it is. What I am saying is that there are many S.D. Masters and Senseis, and you or I haven't met all of them to see what they have to offer, and never possibly could. That's probably why it's called "Secrets of the Temple." The temple is a living thing. I wish you well.;)

[humbleman]

Then one day a ship wrecked and they didnt have any food so Capt Bly had to save them from themselves and break coconuts so they could eat and not starve. None of the passangers could, so they asked Capt Bly to teach them because they knew deep down that if they didnt learn they would die and they had to dedicate themselves to do it so as not to die . But those who did not dedicate them selves did die. KCwhispered rumors that one night, while meditating underneath a coconut tree for 49 days and nights on the true essence of Coconut Tao, a Coconut fell from the tree and split in a perfect half on Captain Blys head. But this was no ordinary Coconut. It was the Coconut of immortality. Bly immediately pulled out a jumbo crayola fuschia colored crayon that he kept stored in a watertight compartment and wrote down the inner teachings of Coconut Tao, which he hid inside the Coconut halves, and then buried. Years later, someone finally bothered to go ashore on Clench and dug up the mystic Coconut. He later sailed to Berdoo, CA. and founded the sect of Igotmynskruyujustsu-hukanuduitu-ryu. There, if you ask right, you can see the secret ritual where the monks of Igotmynskruyujutsu-hukanuduitu-ryu hold Coconut halves at their Tantien and walk in circles chanting. As with everything in the style, the Coconut halves have a practical funtion. They are worn in place of plastic cups during sparring, the only known defense against the terrible Coconut busting power of Coconut-Tao. This is known in the system as humor-ha-ha.:D

[humbleman]

Well OK Pick then you can hire a General Surgeon to do your Brain Surgery and let the Neuro Surgeons just watch as they scramble your brain to mush. I never said I did not cross train " in the Past" but I feel to do something as well as possible takes total dedication. I tell ya what why dont you grapple for a year or two then try kicking against a good Tae Kwon Do guy your kicks will be ****zen. Wake up and do what you want. I dont care I was there when I was young too. KCCats foot, iron claw, neuro surgeouns scream for more/ at paranoias poison door/ 21st century schizoid mannnnnn!!!! -king crimson:D

[brucereiter]

You're right that some moves ARE part of the training. Others are aestics only. But I can't say that someone gifted couldn't apply a technique that I can't so I take all of that with a grain (or more) of salt.

Certian techniques take a deal of conditioning and atleticism to do. Trying to perfect that technique improves ones speed, strength, explosivness, body awareness, timing, etc to a point that all of their material improves because of it. Personally, I'll never throw a spinning hook kick in a fight, but I know there are people that could make that work for them in the reight circumstance even if I couldn't. But I practice them (and butterfly kicks, and all manners of other stuff) because its challenging.

If all I wanted to do was work on fighting, then I'd quick kung fu and do boxing or MMA.

some of the moves are not always what they seem to be ... take a butterfly kick for example. i was walking towards a 4' tall barricade at work with my hands full of equipment. i used a butterfly kick to jump over the barricade. this has many self defense uses as you could imagine ... not just to kick someone ...

my 2 cents ...

i think it is up to the student to grasp the essence of which ever art. i have trained side by side with the same people for years had the same instruction as the rest of them but for example my understanding of tai chi chuan might be a little deeper than some of my peers, why??? we had the same oppritunity we have put in the same amount of time ... ???

[Judge Pen]

BTW Every application is individual to ones body and ability so if you have to be shown an application remember that it is just that persons concept of what the technique is for, based on his / her body style and strengths etc. KC

Absolutely. If you keep training and growing and improving, then more techniqes and applications become possible for you.

[Golden Tiger]

You could fault me for being stupid enough to believe the publisher when they called their books "comprehensive," but it's not my fault that the books are unusable.

My thinking is that if someone is supposed to be teaching me how to fight, they should teach me how to fight.

And I agree totally. And personally, I think that for the most part, SD does teach people how to fight, in a variety of different styles. But lets look at it a different way....Is the college professor or the class itself wrong or bad if every student doesn't make an A? If 90% or the class passes and 10% fail, whose fault is that? (I think TWS is in the bottom 10% of most things anyway :D )

Personally, I think a lot of teachers do that because they are afraid to admit they don't really know what the movements are intended to do.

Again, reluctently, I have to agree with MK.

Well, that's really another pet peeve of mine that is not particular to SD. Some moevements in forms are so outrageous that they could never reasonably be used in combat.

Might have been mentioned but outrageous moves might not be intended for combat use, but to create a need in the student to reach a higher level of fittness. All athletes use training tools that may never be used in their sport, but the tools make them better, faster, stronger (ala 6 Million Dollar Man)

[MasterKiller]

And I agree totally. And personally, I think that for the most part, SD does teach people how to fight, in a variety of different styles. But lets look at it a different way....Is the college professor or the class itself wrong or bad if every student doesn't make an A? If 90% or the class passes and 10% fail, whose fault is that? (I think TWS is in the bottom 10% of most things anyway :D )
W.E.B. DuBois called them "the talented tenth." Only 10% of people who ever enroll in college graduate in 4 years. I would say that 10% number applies to people in a lot of fields, including martial arts.

Might have been mentioned but outrageous moves might not be intended for combat use, but to create a need in the student to reach a higher level of fittness. All athletes use training tools that may never be used in their sport, but the tools make them better, faster, stronger (ala 6 Million Dollar Man)

I concur.

[humbleman]

We each seek our own path I for one do not need to cross train. From the Tiger I will learn Tenacity and Power, The Snake suppleness and rythmic endurance, The Mantis patience, from The Dragon to ride the wind. and with all this why do I want to do something that will not help me to achieve my goal. Oh yeah and it is not the system it is the individual doing the system, if that person does not have the right attitude then it doesnt matter what syle or styles you do it wont help. Also TWS It is the most comprehensive system I have ever seen I want for nothing I am tested with strength , flexibility, endurance and application. Also ,BTW Every application is individual to ones body and ability so if you have to be shown an application remember that it is just that persons concept of what the technique is for, based on his / her body style and strengths etc. Find your own path only you can follow and to H**l with everyone else. If all of you guys are so good that you dont want to be associated with a style then start your own see how easy it is. KCwell spoken. Bravo!

[ninthdrunk]

Just my two cents:

I have had really good experience with specialization. It's all about how much you put into it, I guess. Not just how much you put in physically, but mentally. In fact, I would argue that might be even more important. Master Schaefer is there to answer any questions I have, and more often than not, he can make me realize that I've actually been keeping myself pinned down, so to speak, with how I've been looking at the problem. To me, that's what a teacher is for. Not to spoon answers into my mouth, but to show me how to overcome stumbling blocks that I've come up against. I WANT my path to mastery to be my own, not someone else's.

As to seeking out people who are specialists in SD, I see two different solutions. One is tied directly to my first point: explore the problem yourself. In a sense, become the specialist. I've found that if you go looking for someone to take you from ground zero all the way to mastery, it doesn't happen. I think it works better if you take yourself as far as you can on your own (with guidance here and there along the way, of course, as mentioned above). Second, instead of trying to find someone who has all the answers, find someone else who is in the same boat as yourself, and start asking questions together. I've come away from conversations with people in my same position with some really good answers. Were they the right answers? Sometimes...the point is that we tackled it together and made some progress.

I know for a fact that there are people in the Austin school that I could turn to for specialized training. Are they a master of certain arts? Not quite, but are they better than I am? Sure thing. They have skills that I want, and if I needed to, I could go and ask them how they got where they are. Sifu Ryon for Crane, Jason for tai chi, Sifu Sean for Hsing ie, Master Schaefer for bird, Sifu Andy for drunken. I know they have put in the time. It's evident in their training and sparring. They're there if I wanted to ask some questions.

So, sure we might benefit the most from travelling across the country to the different Masters of certain aspects of SD, but there are also resources close to home. Granted, Texas has a lot of students, so the odds are in our favor, and other locations might not be that lucky. Well, why not try and become the specialist yourself. Or take the few opportunities that you get seriously. Every time I've stopped a Master at a tournament for a few questions, they have responded very positively. Know what you want to ask in advance, and try to make it something more in depth than, "how do you specialize in mantis?" or whatever.

[Learn]

Many thoughts expressed here. Again, I have to express an appreciation for Judge Pen's civil discourse, and also for his passion for SD, because it meant so much to me. I also understand Willow Sword's passion on the subject. The poster who talked of the SD teacher who was so good in Mantis, I apologize for not remembering your name, but I trained with a number of senior instructors, and none of them conveyed the key principles and strategy of northern mantis. I did learn a mantis form in SD, and frankly, I am somewhat embarassed because it seems to me to be a shallow copycat without deeper understanding of what mantis is all about. I paid for studies in Tai Ji, in Ba Gua. I did enjoy it. None of my teachers ever told me there was so much more to learn about those styles. I learned a sequence of movements, no principles, no applications, no theory. Subsequent study has shown me that what I learned what just a seminar style introduction. I have no problem with that in and of itself, but that is not what I was told.

I recall learning certain sparring techniques. In retrospect, given additional experience, they were definitely karate based. Not cma.

Really, this is a difficult thing for me, because my studies with SD made me so many friend and changed my life. But I also have some bitterness, because my subsequent training has introduced me to much more realistic approaches to fighting. I do have a feeling that I was duped. I definitely got something, just not what I was sold.

I suppose it depends on our expectations. SD can deliver wonderful things. But you have to match it up to what you want.

As far as weapons, I love cma weapons, but I love where I'm at now much more. Serious, real world knife fighting is very challenging, but there is pleasure in studying the jian.

[The Willow Sword]

i repsect what Ninthdrunk has to say but i also think that it is easy for an instructor who doesnt have the proper knowledge of a form(s) to say "go figure it out for yourself" and make this mystical statement that the "answers will come to you". to me this is more indicitive of hollywood kung fu MOVIES rather than a practical approach to learning forms and their subsequent applications.
you dont just learn a form and explore a couple of applications within and then move on to the next form. have you mastered that form when you do this? i say absolutely not. The statement of " learning the applications yourself" is the excuse i had been given all throughout my time at SD. yeah i would be taught a couple of "possibilities" then left to my own. Not that i am in the bottom10% of things as golden a$$hole suggests that i am. But you definately feel like you are cheating yourself and cheating others buy trying to pull applications out of your butt and then teaching them to others when you are not sure if what you are doing is the correct way(and yes there are many combinations of applic. contained within forms). joe's focus in his teaching was always about the FORM rather than the applications of the form, with only minimal % of teaching applications(but that was during the time i was there). I mean hey thats why sd has the sparring techniques and the age old true shaolin ippon kumite:rolleyes: techniques. It seems as though you are distracted with those and focus on using those in your fighting and in tournaments. ive only seen a Few people at Sd during my time there actually try to emulate and fight like the forms taught to them. never a mantis or a tiger or a bird way of fighting but more so the typical kiddie karate way.
The bottom line for me aside from the obvious lineage/history fabrication is the inconsistancy of the forms taught at different schools and the LACK of real application training for the forms. It is one reason why i dont do the sd forms anymore. How can i teach something to someone if i dont KNOW what it is that i am really teaching?
i can teach the version of bung bo mantis i learned prior to Sd and all its applications because my teacher actually SHOWED ME THE APPLICATIONS to the form( i would then take those and learn from those applications to create ones that i thought were applicable) . There was NEVER a form or aspect of a form that he taught me without teaching me the applications to every move he made. None of us are supra geniouses nor are we mind readers, we need instruction and guidance. you dont just sit a child down in a math class and say "ok here is 2+2, now go figure the answer out on your own". as elementary this example is it does make the point that one can be shown a problem/form but in order to understand said problem/form one must be taught the fundamentals in order to find the answers or applications. SD does not do this with their forms.

TWS

[brucereiter]

The bottom line for me aside from the obvious lineage/history fabrication is the inconsistancy of the forms taught at different schools and the LACK of real application training for the forms. It is one reason why i dont do the sd forms anymore. How can i teach something to someone if i dont KNOW what it is that i am really teaching?
i can teach the version of bung bo mantis i learned prior to Sd and all its applications because my teacher actually SHOWED ME THE APPLICATIONS to the form( i would then take those and learn from those applications to create ones that i thought were applicable)

TWS

hi twi and all ...

i will use "yang tai chi chuan 64 form" as an example. here at the atlanta csc as part of regular class we are taught 167 give or take possible applications from the 38 individual postures. i started being taught applications in my first few classes almost 10 years ago. in the 6 months spent to begin to learn "yang tai chi chuan 64 form" we start off with about 4 or 5 applications per section (we split it into 6 sections and spend 1 month on each section on a continuos rotation)

most students after the first 6 months never dig deeper and this is their choice. also theydo not really practice the first applications they are shown outside of class so i think it is their own problem.

the applications are not shoved down our throats though as not all students are interested (and this is ok) we have some older people who are just trying to become more healthy we have some younger people who are not mature enough yet and we have some people who are very interested and very skilled (maybe 10% of the students) the information is there for the taking at the atlanta csc schools, it is just most students do not really care and again i think this is ok ... martial arts are a personal journey and for some learning tai chi as an activity is just as good as learning tai chi chuan as a serious martial art.

my teacher always stressed standing meditation (though he did not call it zhang zuan) i really think only a few students have put in more tha a few moments of practice into zhang zuan, push hands, applications study and sparing. i was always taught it is important to the internal arts so i did the practice and i have noticed in my peers the ones who have done this type of practice along with push hands, applications and sparring all have a certain level of skill and the ones who just go along and run through the form somtimes and that is it well they have an activity that brings them pleasure, are they missing many of the benefits of internal arts practice? yes! but it does not matter if they are happy and enjoy it this is good ...

i think each shaolin do school might be diffrent in how they teach. i have met sd people from each of the major clicks of shaolin do and found both very skilled people with deep understanding and also people who have very little understanding of the internal arts.

one question i have for people outside of shaolin do is at your school what % of students are very skilled and understand and demonstrate internal arts to a high skill level?

[Judge Pen]

I don't know who your SD teacher was (and I mean them no disrespect) but you did not get good instruction. Unfortunately, there are several forms that are taught (seminars, festivals, or just picked up as you go) that you just get them movements but the core material should never be taught without applications. Not hand-holding or spoon-feeding but basic principles and applications to help you understand the style the form is from. By not getting that in you Pa Kua or whatever, you got bad instruction. It is a problem in SD (even sometimes with good instructors who get in a hurry).

Kali is good stuff. I've seen enough of it to respect it and what it teaches. If all you got in SD were good friends, good memories, and good excercise with a simplistic martial understanding then, two things, (1) I'm sorry that you weren't taught more (as you should have been), and (2) I'm glad you could get something out of it before you left.

[Golden Tiger]

Not that i am in the bottom10% of things as golden a$$hole suggests that i am.

Now now little fellow, lets keep it civil.

And with out quoting the heck out of the previous posts, I have to agree that if a student is not getting the applications, back ground training and such, then they are not being taught.

[ninthdrunk]

TWS, I totally agree with most of what you're saying, but I do think we look at the situation a little differently. First, don't even get me started on instructors who don't know what they're doing. I know there are a lot of people teaching in the shaolin do world that probably should take a little time off to get their stuff straightened out. I mean no disrespect to anyone, or the organization, but it happens in SD as I'm sure it happens in most other schools/organizations. Sometimes these people are allowed to teach because of spirit or ability or tenure, and sometimes it's just out of lack of resources in the school. Whatever the case, I agree that in those situations, the "go figure it out" answer is unsatisfactory, because this person couldn't even answer yes/no questions about applications. They probably haven't tried things out and have even a minimal understanding of the material. I think people who don't know the answer should be willing to just say, "I don't know, let's ask Master Schaefer when he comes in." I don't know if it's ego, or fear of seeming like you don't know the answer. I think a lot of instructors forget they are still students.

Now, I have never been taught this way by Master Schaefer. From the time I started, all of my lower belt material through the cranes at 3rd brown were taught with basic applications, and in most cases we spent class time here and there drilling them. Was it as much drilling as I needed to be proficient at using the applications? No, but it gave me a decent understanding of the moves. I must admit the Austin school is a bit bigger, and when I first started training there, there was less of the drills, but I know that Master Schaefer still teaches applications to all the lower belt material. The upper belt stuff is sometimes hit or miss. Does this mean his focus is mainly on forms? Well, I think that's a mixed answer.

I've talked with him about this, and, not to put words in his mouth, but he has found great value in training forms. Remember that his own teachers are hundreds of miles away from him, and so he learned to extrapolate meaning on his own from his forms. I'm sure he also got applications here and there as were needed, but for the most part, he is a thinker and an innovator. He seems to have trained himself in a "do it yourself" way, with forms as his guide. He is very big on the transformative power of forms. And I must admit that I find his method extremely beneficial. With the lower belt applications I was taught, I'm able to look at forms and come up with good, seemingly effective applications for just about everything in our forms. And the things I can't figure out....sure enough, any time I've asked, Master Schaefer has had a good solid answer for me. The important thing is, that with continued forms practice in a particular style you can feel your own movements and way of thinking changing. So, maybe the problem comes back to taking on too many forms, when what you're really looking for is specialized understanding in one particular set of forms.

So, I agree with what you're saying, and I know everyone's learning styles are different. So, maybe Master Schaefer's just fits mine better than others, but I really think that the instruction in SD works because it has worked for me.

OH, and like KC said, you'd be really surprised at the training in Austin now. There are still problems with training, but I think that is the price to pay in such a large organization, but the fact remains the quality of training has also gone up in many respects. Basically, you can get what you want there. If you just want to be in shape and have a good time, you can get it. And if you want to learn to be a martial artist...well, I know you can get that, too.

[The Willow Sword]

Hey TWS though you might not believe it you made a big mistake leaving SD when you did the art is alot deeper than you would have dreamed and I am not talking forms here. KC

Oh you mean all the "Hua" roads and whatnot? Nah, Wasnt interested in learning any of that NOR was i interested in anything else that wasnt related to bagua and hsing yi directly. HAD i stayed with SD i would have continued the internal curriculum and focused on the hsing i and pakua and tai chi. Those arts are pretty deep if you ask me. plus they provide a LIFETIME of material and endless contemplation.
seems like SD treats them as "Medicore" when compared to all that "upper level" stuff and the "deeper" things you are trying to tell me is there. PLUS, even if i Wanted to go back to SD(which i dont) they wouldnt have me back anyway, especially Joe.

TWS

[Golden Tiger]

PLUS, even if i Wanted to go back to SD(which i dont) they wouldnt have me back anyway, especially Joe.


I would take you in TWS. All jokes aside, I don't hold grudges and would love to find someone as devoted to learning as you are to pass on what I have learned in the 30 odd years. I have even been told I am pretty good at all that internal sutff..:cool:

[Baqualin]

Oh you mean all the "Hua" roads and whatnot? Nah, Wasnt interested in learning any of that NOR was i interested in anything else that wasnt related to bagua and hsing yi directly. HAD i stayed with SD i would have continued the internal curriculum and focused on the hsing i and pakua and tai chi. Those arts are pretty deep if you ask me. plus they provide a LIFETIME of material and endless contemplation.
seems like SD treats them as "Medicore" when compared to all that "upper level" stuff and the "deeper" things you are trying to tell me is there. PLUS, even if i Wanted to go back to SD(which i dont) they wouldnt have me back anyway, especially Joe.

TWS

Don't know you...have watched post on here for a while, but I've been in and out of SD for 33 years and I'm sorry for your experience.... mine has been totally different (my location helped). I too love the internal (it's all I do now) and it's really stressed .....the past 3 or 4 years most seminars taught by Grand Master Sin and Elder Master Leonard have been internal forms encluding weapons. GMS has also changed the advancement requirements for the internal to be on a equal level with the external (chen 83 pre black now).....for the people who took the seminars they are able to (if they choose)practice weekly with the masters with applications (including point strikes) and proper form always stressed. And yes there's a lot of bad internal in SD, but also a lot of people who do know the classic's and the rules of Pakua and Hsing i and how to apply and practice them.
We have a lot of the external students that come into the internal class to learn their required internal forms better. You also mentioned flying to see Master Smith....it would be worth the money, trust me. Anyway I hope you find what your looking for. One last thing about our lineage....chinese history is full of legends and mysticism....sometimes they turn out to be true...who knows. For those who believe our material came from books and videos all I can ask is how many were available 40 years ago? For those making fun of how a 60 year old Grand Master
(of which nobody of any age in SD could even stand his work out routine) I wish you could have seen GSM and his brother weapons spar in the early years...I'm sure Golden Tiger will concur.:

[Radhnoti]

EM Leonard has a applications video for Tai Chi 24...but it looks like it's out of stock right now:
http://shaolin.safeshopper.com/1/cat1.htm?809

[Learn]

Judge, good honest post about a contentious subject. Perhaps I dwell too much on this, but I feel this kind of discussion is good when it comes to something so contentious. I have not named my teachers, because of my respect for them, but I was short changed. Perhaps because they wished not to short change me but that they gave me everything they had at the time. I know they gave me everything they had, and I appreciated that. I do love cma, I practice forms on my own for the love of it. However, for reality I study pikiti tirsia kali. My reality training is so much far ahead of what I studied in sd. That's not to say kali is better than cma, just that I didn't learn these things in sd. (Actually, kali is better than cma in some areas, but cma has some great strenghts)

[Learn]

Just to be clear, I underwent a black belt test under Sin The and passed. I also passed tests for tai ji and ba gua. I don't say that for any ego reasons, just that I have been deeply involved in sd.

[Learn]

Kwai Chung,

I may have misunstood your question. However, the philipino/indo culture is a blade culture. It is the most advanced such culture in the world. If you wish to deal with a blade, at its highest level, one will study such. CMA lacks there. It does not mean cma is worthless, it has other strengths

[ricardocameron]

DON'T MISS IT!! Sunday....



Martial Arts vs. Crash Test Dummies: National Geographic's FIGHT SCIENCE

by Dr. Craig Reid


How many of you out there have ever wondered just how powerful a good karate spinning back fist is compared to a boxing right cross, or how deadly a muay thai knee strike is compared to a tae kwon do kick, or how fast is a kung fu finger jab compared to a boxing jab? Is it really possible for a small man to kill a large man with one carefully placed strike or for someone to easily incapacitate an attacker without throwing a single punch or kick? If there is one TV show you must see this year, it has to be FIGHT SCIENCE on Sunday, August 20 at 9 pm ET/PT on the National Geographic Channel. This highly intelligent show marries a dream team of crash test scientists, sports biomechanists and Hollywood animators with a cross-section of legitimate martial artists representing various styles of martial arts in an attempt to separate martial arts fact from fiction

[ricardocameron]

The wife sent me this... Man, I could make some MAD money with this... :p


It's the EYE TOY on CRACK!

Augmented Reality Kung Fu

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gF5WCwEYnng


"High T3ch already talked about Augmented Reality. This time its about Kung FU ! It allows a full body interatction via camera sensors making the game more fun for the player."

[Golden Tiger]

which tai chi and pakua applications videos

Master Bill did a DVD to the tai chi 24, and also one with Hsing I (shattering hand). The ones I think BM2 is refering to are the Tai Chi 64, Classical Pa Kua, 8 Animal Pa Kua and perhaps a couple of others that Master Sin did over the years. Those aren't for sell as far as I am aware. Then again, if the price is right....:p

JP, I'll get back to you on that. Something could be worked out I am sure.

[Spear55]

This is my first time posting. I came across this thread and it took me a while to realize that I had done a seminar with one of the Shaolin-Do masters. Several months ago my teacher had Master Grooms from Atlanta do a seminar for our school on Tai Chi Fundamentals, Applications and Fighting Technique. A handful of people from Atlanta came down for the seminar.

I’ve been around for quite awhile with Master Nick Scrima’s schools and have done many seminars with Grandmaster William C.C. Chen on Tai Chi. I have also worked with Master Tony Yang and done a Xingyi seminar with Di Guoyong President of the Beijing Xingyi Research Association.

Master Grooms never really talked about Shaolin-Do – I don’t think he ever said the words. He did talk about multiple trips to China to visit the Temples and go to Chen Village and going to some big World Tai Chi event on Hainan Island a few years ago.

The only thing I recall him saying about Grandmaster Sin The’ was that he was unbelievably fast and powerful. Which I found amazing he would say that because I have never seen anyone as explosive as Master Grooms. His punching speed was better than Di Guoyong and in push hands there simply is no comparison between him and Grandmaster William C.C. Chen. Master Grooms did a little push hands with me – he told me to do whatever I wanted and go as fast as I felt like. He then turned his head away from me and carried on a conversation with other people while he effortlessly destroyed me. I may not be great , but I have been at this quite awhile and have spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars with big name guys like Di Guoyong and William C.C. Chen. All those seminars did not teach me in countless hours what Master Grooms taught me in about two hours. I actually have an understanding of power delivery and speed development that makes sense.

Of course you might say he is just a freak of nature – and his hand speed is freaky. However, there were more than a couple of his students there who were similar in rank to my Shifu and they were significantly more skilled in Tai Chi fighting. There was big guy named Bruce who my Shifu said was exceptional and then there was this guy that Master Grooms said was his senior student. I think his name was Mike Reed and he supposedly played in the NFL. That is one scary dude.

To sum it up ---- this handful of people from Atlanta had better skills and understanding of Tai Chi than the group of people from my school who are essentially students of Grandmaster C.C. Chen

[ricardocameron]

I trained under Master Gary and Mike Reid for a while in Atlanta CSC's..they are very skilled and knowledgeable. Does he do these seminars at your school often? How long have you trained at your school? If it wasn't so far from Wesley Chapel/Zephyrhills, I'd probably be there!!

I am hopefully soon to be training again at the Shaolin-do school in Brandon, Fl...(Tampashaolin.com) :)

[Judge Pen]

This is my first time posting. I came across this thread and it took me a while to realize that I had done a seminar with one of the Shaolin-Do masters. Several months ago my teacher had Master Grooms from Atlanta do a seminar for our school on Tai Chi Fundamentals, Applications and Fighting Technique. A handful of people from Atlanta came down for the seminar.

I’ve been around for quite awhile with Master Nick Scrima’s schools and have done many seminars with Grandmaster William C.C. Chen on Tai Chi. I have also worked with Master Tony Yang and done a Xingyi seminar with Di Guoyong President of the Beijing Xingyi Research Association.

Master Grooms never really talked about Shaolin-Do – I don’t think he ever said the words. He did talk about multiple trips to China to visit the Temples and go to Chen Village and going to some big World Tai Chi event on Hainan Island a few years ago.

The only thing I recall him saying about Grandmaster Sin The’ was that he was unbelievably fast and powerful. Which I found amazing he would say that because I have never seen anyone as explosive as Master Grooms. His punching speed was better than Di Guoyong and in push hands there simply is no comparison between him and Grandmaster William C.C. Chen. Master Grooms did a little push hands with me – he told me to do whatever I wanted and go as fast as I felt like. He then turned his head away from me and carried on a conversation with other people while he effortlessly destroyed me. I may not be great , but I have been at this quite awhile and have spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars with big name guys like Di Guoyong and William C.C. Chen. All those seminars did not teach me in countless hours what Master Grooms taught me in about two hours. I actually have an understanding of power delivery and speed development that makes sense.

Of course you might say he is just a freak of nature – and his hand speed is freaky. However, there were more than a couple of his students there who were similar in rank to my Shifu and they were significantly more skilled in Tai Chi fighting. There was big guy named Bruce who my Shifu said was exceptional and then there was this guy that Master Grooms said was his senior student. I think his name was Mike Reed and he supposedly played in the NFL. That is one scary dude.

To sum it up ---- this handful of people from Atlanta had better skills and understanding of Tai Chi than the group of people from my school who are essentially students of Grandmaster C.C. Chen

I'm curious about your background in Tai Chi. I've played sticky hands with the Bruce you referred to, and the guy had great skill (he drawfed me in size and skill--the guy had great sensitivity and amazing flow with his technique--especially for a big guy). I wonder if you had compared their form instead of their fighting how you opinion would have been different.

[Spear55]

Done the 108, 24, CC Chens 60, some sword. "Fighting training" was really just pushing.

First part of the seminar was all about form and how it is supposed to develop speed and power and teach you how to fight. It all made sense to me.

You might say he is doing something wrong in the form however he can explain whatever he does with sound physics and impressive demonstrations of speed and power.

If I have to do it wrong to hit like that.... I guess I'll be doing it wrong.

[brucereiter]

I wonder if you had compared their form instead of their fighting how you opinion would have been different.

hi jp,

i was told by a chen guy who has a lot of famous teachers that my chen xin jia is too "flowery" to be any good at fighting so i asked him to do free push hands. he said what is that they only do 5 prearranged push hands drill. they were good drills but they are just that drills!

at any rate he looked really good doing his form very pretty to watch but the thing was he had no real concept of what the moves meant. no martial ability other than the basic punch/kick you see any child doing in a playground fight.

he had a lot of theories and ideas and went to a lot of seminars with even more famous people but that is it and i think this is the case with the majority of ima people they have theory but nothing real.

people get to caught up in lineage and fancy names instead of skill.

my teacher never once told me to "relax my kua" or "fold my dang"
but he showed me how to do those things with action and meaning not just words that none chinese speaking people cant understand.

practice

[kungfujunky]

Does SD teach the internal arts of Tai Chi, Pakua, and Xing I ????


yes it does

[brucereiter]

Does SD teach the internal arts of Tai Chi, Pakua, and Xing I ????

yes, i would say the skill level and understanding varies from person to person but the internal side of sd is really good.

[The Xia]

I mean come on, Shaolin Do claims a man with hypertrichosis was taken in by Shaolin monks after being abandonded by his parents. Then they claim he learned everything Shaolin had and became the temple's first "grandmaster". On top of that, they claim that this is the Southern Shaolin Temple......
They expect people to believe that.

[kungfujunky]

why cant they be true?

this is what i find so silly...because something is hard to believe does not mean it isnt true

[The Xia]

Lets cut to the point......What the hell is Shaolin Do?

[The Xia]

why cant they be true?

this is what i find so silly...because something is hard to believe does not mean it isnt true
kungfujunky, even the Shaolin Doka (a new term) on this forum don't defend such claims.

[kungfujunky]

that still doesnt make it false..there is an absence of proof either way to support or negate the claim.

i know that what i learn is affective and real. others have come on here and said the same thing.

shaolin do is shaolin kung fu.

it took an interesting path from the temples to the usa but that is what it is

[brucereiter]

I mean come on, Shaolin Do claims a man with hypertrichosis was taken in by Shaolin monks after being abandonded by his parents. Then they claim he learned everything Shaolin had and became the temple's first "grandmaster". On top of that, they claim that this is the Southern Shaolin Temple......
They expect people to believe that.

i do not think people are expected to believe anything.

in my opinion they should consider all sources of information and their experience and come to their own conclusions. if you have decided that shoalin do is "fake" and of no value then please do not study it.

if you are interested in finding out what shaolin do is i advise you meet some people who practice it and exchange information with them. i think you would come accross a wide range of skill sets and understandings of the arts taught in shaolin do.

happy training ...

[The Xia]

i do not think people are expected to believe anything.

in my opinion they should consider all sources of information and their experience and come to their own conclusions. if you have decided that shoalin do is "fake" and of no value then please do not study it.

if you are interested in finding out what shaolin do is i advise you meet some people who practice it and exchange information with them. i think you would come accross a wide range of skill sets and understandings of the arts taught in shaolin do.

happy training ...
I've read the outragious claims. I'm not going to buy that. However, I asked here what Shaolin Do is. So, what is Shaolin Do?

[kungfujunky]

that still doesnt make it false..there is an absence of proof either way to support or negate the claim.

i know that what i learn is affective and real. others have come on here and said the same thing.

shaolin do is shaolin kung fu.

it took an interesting path from the temples to the usa but that is what it is

answered here

[Judge Pen]

Lets cut to the point......What the hell is Shaolin Do?

From the tone of your post makes me not want to waste my time explaining this to you. Read this thread from the begining and you might find the answer. Or if you want to be antagonistic, then keep posting.

[The Xia]

From the tone of your post makes me not want to waste my time explaining this to you. Read this thread from the begining and you might find the answer. Or if you want to be antagonistic, then keep posting.
The internet isn't a good indicator of tone. I meant for the question to be strong and clear (this way people don't dance around the answer).
I've read through the thread and can't really find a straight up answer. From offsite sources, I only find the wild stories. So I ask you Judge Pen (and anyone else who wants to chime in), what is Shaolin Do?

[lunghushan]

The internet isn't a good indicator of tone. I meant for the question to be strong and clear (this way people don't dance around the answer).
I've read through the thread and can't really find a straight up answer. From offsite sources, I only find the wild stories. So I ask you Judge Pen (and anyone else who wants to chime in), what is Shaolin Do?

Just read through the thread (or at least many pages of it). It is evident that irrespective of where Shaolin Do is from that they do forms + applications + sparring, so it can't be all bad.

Plus if you read through the Judge Pen sparring clips, he can spar.

At some point you have to stop worrying about lineage.

So what if it is a Shaolin McDojo. At least it's a Shaolin McDojo where they learn to fight.

[Baqualin]

The internet isn't a good indicator of tone. I meant for the question to be strong and clear (this way people don't dance around the answer).
I've read through the thread and can't really find a straight up answer. From offsite sources, I only find the wild stories. So I ask you Judge Pen (and anyone else who wants to chime in), what is Shaolin Do?

Shaolin Do......40 years in america.....it's pretty obvious what we are....a lineage of Shaolin that migrated to Indonesia then to the US like it or not.....40 years and a lot of good people.

[Flying-Monkey]

Shaolin Do......40 years in america.....it's pretty obvious what we are....a lineage of Shaolin that migrated to Indonesia then to the US like it or not.....40 years and a lot of good people....

Bullsh!t.

[Flying-Monkey]

Did you know Monkeys have the smallest p***s of all the primates ? KC

What's your point? Since I don't plan on having sex with you, why would you care about the size of my p***s?

[Flying-Monkey]

Yeah, I'm being a d**k, because I feel that Shaolindo have no true Shaolin lineage.

[The Xia]

Well cant be answered in one post so in a nut shell it is a Shaolin Martial Art that encompasses many CMA's Hsing Ie Tai Chi Pa kua animal styles and weapons. You have read the history and you can believe what you want so what school do you come from ? Is that direct enough for you mister direct or what info do you want exactly ? please be precise so we can answer. !!! KC
I am not a Shaolin Doka (no one has commented on my new word. I think its clever lol). However, it is obvious that Shaolin Do is a talking piece in the Kung Fu world. It seems to be alot like the San Soo situation.
So you are saying that Shaolin Do is a combination of Tai Chi, Bagua, Hsing Yi, and some other stuff?

[Flying-Monkey]

Who was your Hung gar teacher? Who was your tiger teacher? Please explain more.

[Flying-Monkey]

How old are you now (excuse the age question)? Well, what were these teachers names? I did Tae kwan do when i was 10 and I remember my teacher's name.

[BentMonk]

I've posted this once on this thread already, but obviously some people missed it.

There are hundreds of pages of debate and discussion about all things Shaolin Do floating all over the net, and elsewhere. That fact alone makes SD "real" in many ways. All of this attention to the pros, cons, substance, and origins of SD have shown us that;

1. There is CMA present in SD. I'm talking about the material itself, not an opinion of performance.

2. There are SD schools that strongly emphasize technique application, proper form and body mechanics, and physical conditioning.

3. SD schools are like people. They all have strengths and weaknesses. They each see their point of view as correct, and sometimes forget that everyone else does the same thing.

4. SD is subject to all of the same drama as any other endeavor involving a large group of imperfect human beings.

5. SD is no different than any other MA. There are instructors, students, and fighters that are excellent, good, fair, and poor. This is a matter of effort, not what is real.

6. SD is not unique in having history that can be neither proven or dis proven.

7. SD is not unique in using larger than life marketing to attract students.

There are no more "pure" lineages. There is no "true Shaolin". The Shaolin being taught and practiced in China right now is a business that bears little resemblance to the original, and is marketed heavily. There are many in the world far more knowledgeable about CMA than those of us posting here. If SD were truly a complete fraud, someone besides us would have figured it out and said something long before now. BTW Shaolin Doka was funny.

[The Xia]

XIA yes you are being a D--K and as I said you can think what you want you saeem to be a Troll to me. KC:rolleyes:
Petty insults....yeah, that will convince everyone here. :rolleyes:
Lets keep this to civilized discussion. Name-calling isn't going to get anywhere.
No , Shaolin Do as the history explains encompasses the teaching from all 6 temples in China. There is alot that is covered and we trace our Lineage Primarily to the fukien Temple. I have learned the Hua , Hung Gar, Tiger, Lohan, as well as the internal arts mentioned and Iron Bone and Tang Lang and on and on. That is what it is .
You believe the whole "Shaolin Grandmaster" story kwaichang?

[The Xia]

BTW Shaolin Doka was funny.
Thanks. :D

[BlueTravesty]

I've posted this once on this thread already, but obviously some people missed it.

There are hundreds of pages of debate and discussion about all things Shaolin Do floating all over the net, and elsewhere. That fact alone makes SD "real" in many ways. All of this attention to the pros, cons, substance, and origins of SD have shown us that;

1. There is CMA present in SD. I'm talking about the material itself, not an opinion of performance.

2. There are SD schools that strongly emphasize technique application, proper form and body mechanics, and physical conditioning.

3. SD schools are like people. They all have strengths and weaknesses. They each see their point of view as correct, and sometimes forget that everyone else does the same thing.

4. SD is subject to all of the same drama as any other endeavor involving a large group of imperfect human beings.

5. SD is no different than any other MA. There are instructors, students, and fighters that are excellent, good, fair, and poor. This is a matter of effort, not what is real.

6. SD is not unique in having history that can be neither proven or dis proven.

7. SD is not unique in using larger than life marketing to attract students.


Very good points.


There are no more "pure" lineages. There is no "true Shaolin". The Shaolin being taught and practiced in China right now is a business that bears little resemblance to the original, and is marketed heavily.

If there is no "true Shaolin," then by what yardstick are we comparing current Shaolin? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that pre-20th century Shaolin Kung Fu was MUCH different than the Shaolin practiced at the temple now, but I think the main differences were probably more along the lines of applications, martial intent, fewer forms, and fewer weapons than what we see today. Is it your contention that the Hong and Lohan forms are commercialist Shaolin inventions?

At least some of the money coming to the Monk teachers goes toward Buddhist purposes (In particular, I'm thinking of Shi Guolin.) Granted I'm not a Buddhist, but I can respect money going to a cause other than an MA organization.


There are many in the world far more knowledgeable about CMA than those of us posting here. If SD were truly a complete fraud, someone besides us would have figured it out and said something long before now. BTW Shaolin Doka was funny.


As you said, "There are hundreds of pages of debate and discussion about all things Shaolin Do floating all over the net, and elsewhere." Therefore, someone besides us HAS "figured it out." I don't think SD is a "complete fraud" however. I just think the style as a whole should have a slice of humble pie rather than saying "yeah, all you other styles are so fake, just because your arts are Chinese doesn't mean they're REAL."

On a side note, due to a post from another forum user in my area, I found out there's a SD school not too far from where I am currently studying Kung Fu. I wish them the best of luck, as they are currently renting space from a dance school. At our Kung Fu class though, no one has been "up in arms" about it though. You know, kinda like how in REAL life (most) MMA types aren't as snooty about TMA as (most of) the MMA types who post on Martial Arts forums.

[Green Cloud]

Xia this is one out of many comercial schools that are out there case in point united studios, Vilaris, Shaolin kempo, and so forth. They are all loosely based on CMA.

These styles are only as good as the guy that made them up. One thing these schools are good at is creating an image and marketing themselves.

To admit that they are full of it would not be good for their self image and when it come to the members well they defend their style to the very bitter end.

After all it's hard for martial artist to admit that his Black Belt is lets say just a black belt.

[The Xia]

MY apologies XIA I was referring to the Flying Monkey when I said he was a D==K and a troll.
No problem.
You have legitimate questions. Yes I do believe the Grand Master story I have no reason not to. Who in their right mind would make up a story about a harry guy to sell a martial art and continue to teach for 47 years in rural Kentucky. There are alot easier ways to make money. I know I have seen the physicality of the forms and attempted them for a while. KC
The grandmaster story flies in the face of Chinese martial arts history, thats why it is not to be believed. The Kung Fu craze of the 70s made Shaolin "in" for people interested in martial arts. Claiming to have the ultimate in Shaolin martial arts will sell wheras saying you have a product of Indonesian blending would be more diffucult.

[godzillakungfu]

I've read the outragious claims. I'm not going to buy that. However, I asked here what Shaolin Do is. So, what is Shaolin Do?
It is a Martial Art. Next question.

[Green Cloud]

No , Shaolin Do as the history explains encompasses the teaching from all 6 temples in China. There is alot that is covered and we trace our Lineage Primarily to the fukien Temple. I have learned the Hua , Hung Gar, Tiger, Lohan, as well as the internal arts mentioned and Iron Bone and Tang Lang and on and on. That is what it is . XIA yes you are being a D--K and as I said you can think what you want you saeem to be a Troll to me. KC:rolleyes:

Wich 6 temles are you refering to?? Whats a Hua ??? Iron Bone:rolleyes: ??? And you leraned all those styles including Hung Ga Jeeezz louise you must be like great or something. Hell I know reputable guys that have been teaching and studying just Hung Gar for over 30 years and they are still trying to master that style.

As far as Flying Monkey who you mistakenly refered as Xia why would you call him a D--k, I have spoken to him on several matters and he seems to be a good guy.

He is definately not a troll he studied kung fu under Chan Sao Jung ( the monkey king) as far as I'm concerned he know what's what.

Tung to long what style of preying mantis you know like seven star or is it southern preying mantis???


greencloud.net

[lunghushan]

I would tend to discount Shaolin-Do's stories except as ludicrous as it sounds, that hairy guy features prominently in other Chinese lineages as well I came across some time ago.

[Green Cloud]

I met a guy once who claimed to do authentic monkey style, when I asked who taught him he took me to the Bronx Zoo and pointed at a Chimpanzee and said that guy.

What was I to say to that, think about it for a second. How hard is it to find some chinese dude in a freak show that looks like a dog??? Just look in the guiness book of world records the kung fu dog boy is in it.

Any way who's to prove what's what, That guy had no family or any lineage to speak of. How can you prove he is not the grandmaster of the system.

Any way I don't care about SD and I have been in this buiss. a long time and when it comes to schools like this their image is created. Throw an old poor Chinese fool some Bucks and you to can have him pose in a kung fu uniform for you while you take a picture.

greencloud.net

[BentMonk]

Very good points.



If there is no "true Shaolin," then by what yardstick are we comparing current Shaolin? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that pre-20th century Shaolin Kung Fu was MUCH different than the Shaolin practiced at the temple now, but I think the main differences were probably more along the lines of applications, martial intent, fewer forms, and fewer weapons than what we see today. Is it your contention that the Hong and Lohan forms are commercialist Shaolin inventions?

At least some of the money coming to the Monk teachers goes toward Buddhist purposes (In particular, I'm thinking of Shi Guolin.) Granted I'm not a Buddhist, but I can respect money going to a cause other than an MA organization.



As you said, "There are hundreds of pages of debate and discussion about all things Shaolin Do floating all over the net, and elsewhere." Therefore, someone besides us HAS "figured it out." I don't think SD is a "complete fraud" however. I just think the style as a whole should have a slice of humble pie rather than saying "yeah, all you other styles are so fake, just because your arts are Chinese doesn't mean they're REAL."

On a side note, due to a post from another forum user in my area, I found out there's a SD school not too far from where I am currently studying Kung Fu. I wish them the best of luck, as they are currently renting space from a dance school. At our Kung Fu class though, no one has been "up in arms" about it though. You know, kinda like how in REAL life (most) MMA types aren't as snooty about TMA as (most of) the MMA types who post on Martial Arts forums.

No, I don't think the Hong and Lohan forms are recent inventions. I do think that all things MA are very commercialized, especially anything Shaolin. I agree completely that there is a need for some humble pie in SD, but the same could be said of Wing Chun, MMA, or anything else that involves the human ego. There is nothing wrong with taking pride in what you do. The problem arises when that pride swells to the point of closing minds, and creating a false sense of superiority. Not everyone in SD has this problem. I know the same is true in Wing Chun, MMA, etc. because I have known and trained with many people of various MA backgrounds.

[Judge Pen]

From some of the historical posts in this thread (MasterKiller has some excellent posts), Shaolin Do seems to be a by-product of martial arts blending in Indonesia. Why not just come out with it instead of perpetuating the "Shaolin Grandmaster" story?

We do come out with that. There's also the Su Kong sotry. How can you fault us for that (true or not)? Many styles that are well respected have dubious lineages and history blended with myth and superstition. SD is no different.

No one alive today (within the SD organization) including Sin The and Hiang The were alive when Su Kong supposedly existed. It's all based on hearsay and legend. So what if its true?

The only thing verifiable is that we are a blending of chinese martial arts (and a smattering of JMA such as the Ippons) from different teachers in Indonesia.

Flying Monkey, don't be a d1ck. We've talked about this respectfully before. Most CMA history as claimed by respected teachers is bullsh1t. And I do think that SD has ties to the arts taught inside the temples and styles that were prevelant outside the temple. Most of the time people don't take the time to teach them or learn them properly (present company included)

[Judge Pen]

Xia this is one out of many comercial schools that are out there case in point united studios, Vilaris, Shaolin kempo, and so forth. They are all loosely based on CMA.

These styles are only as good as the guy that made them up. One thing these schools are good at is creating an image and marketing themselves.

To admit that they are full of it would not be good for their self image and when it come to the members well they defend their style to the very bitter end.

After all it's hard for martial artist to admit that his Black Belt is lets say just a black belt.


Rank means nothing to me anymore. I respect the time and effort people put into training and sometimes rank is significant of that and other times its significant of money or nepotism.

All CMA forms are only as good as the person who made them up and the manner is which they are passed down.

[Judge Pen]

No problem.

The grandmaster story flies in the face of Chinese martial arts history, thats why it is not to be believed. The Kung Fu craze of the 70s made Shaolin "in" for people interested in martial arts. Claiming to have the ultimate in Shaolin martial arts will sell wheras saying you have a product of Indonesian blending would be more diffucult.


:D

I'm not an old timer, but when SD started it was before the "kung fu" craze. It was called karate openly and the students were told that it was really Chinese in origin and came through Indonesia (where it picked up the Japanese trappings in a Japanese occupied country. So we have always been up front with the blendings of martial arts and their CMA origins.

Heck, people and family I know ask me how my karate or my Tae Kwon Do is going, because to them, its all the same and they have no concept of the differences.

And Xia, I apologize if I was a bit abrupt.

[Judge Pen]

Wich 6 temles are you refering to?? Whats a Hua ??? Iron Bone:rolleyes: ??? And you leraned all those styles including Hung Ga Jeeezz louise you must be like great or something.

KCs pretty good. Much better than me, but he's been trainging a lot longer too.

Hell I know reputable guys that have been teaching and studying just Hung Gar for over 30 years and they are still trying to master that style.

I do too. I'm still trying to master the stuff I've learned. It should always be a work in progress.

As far as Flying Monkey who you mistakenly refered as Xia why would you call him a D--k, I have spoken to him on several matters and he seems to be a good guy.

I've spoken to him too and he does seem to be a good guy. Good guys can also act like d1cks from time to time. Nothing agasint him.

He is definately not a troll he studied kung fu under Chan Sao Jung ( the monkey king) as far as I'm concerned he know what's what.

I agree; from our conversations I have no doubt that he knows his monkey.

Tung to long what style of preying mantis you know like seven star or is it southern preying mantis???

KC also knows his stuff. And he studied 7 Star several years ago. Its nice to talk to him and he can point out the difference in the mantis he originally leanred vs. he was that SD plays the mantis and talk about the differnt emphasis and applications of each.

greencloud.net

Sorry, my answers were in bold.

[Flying-Monkey]

You guys can call me what every you like. I'm just tired I of SD's claims.

JP

You can call me a d!ck. That's fine. When we spoke, I told you I questioned SD history. I question everything. Even my own style's.

I had some clips of SD. I think they were from Mullen's old site. About 5 years ago, I saved them and showed them to a few masters (hung gar N. Shaolin Wing chun, kempo etc). The first thing most of them did was laugh. But they all agreed that it wasn't kung fu.

I knew I guy in college. I saw him doing a form in the gym. It looked like hung gar but the stances were higher and he was a little stiff. I asked him if he did kung fu. He said "No. It's %$'#! kempo. It is based on Hung gar."

If SD claimed something like that, no one would really have a problem with them. But their websites give the feeling that it is traditional Shaolin. And the way some of the SD cats on this forum act, they feel it is traditional.

My system has a few Mi Zong forms in it. They are Pek Kwar Mi Zong. They are different or they seem to have been . I will not argue with a guy who mainly pratices Mi Zong on these points.

Our Pek Kwar is different from the other Pek Kwar you can see. It is because they are not the same lineage. Our Pek Kwar is hard and direct. If you see TSPK Pek Kwar I form and one of the other Pek Kwars forms, you will see some similarities. BUT there are different. We make not claims of their lineage.

[Green Cloud]

High JD how are you??? Unfortunately Xia and flying monkey stumbled on to the exclusive SD thread.

They were both flabergasted by how they were treated when they asked a few questions about SD.

The thread should read SD members only not is it real, obviously the SD people get a little touchy about their style.

You can't blame the KF forum members when they accidently stumle on to this thread.

Just like my self when I saw this thread my first response was WTF. As far KCs response some of the terminology is wrong to begin with. On top that KCs response was missleading, he made it sound that Hung Ga and all those styles are part of SD.

He did not say he studied outside of SD and saying Lohan Chuan Hung Ga an all the other styles are in SD is like sayIng I know Choy Li Fut but I know Hung Ga because I know CLF.

greencloud.net

[Judge Pen]

You guys can call me what every you like. I'm just tired I of SD's claims.

JP

You can call me a d!ck. That's fine. When we spoke, I told you I questioned SD history. I question everything. Even my own style's.

And I enjoyed speaking with you and we agreed on many things. I was in a ****y mood this morning, so I was probably a bit more abrupt with you than the circumstance dictated. We all have bad days, right? I did notice that your stance and tone on things were much more pleseant and respectful on the phone then on the forum, but that's probably a function of keyboarding.

And I understand that you're tired of SD's claims; that's fine. We're not bothering you. This thread will keep floating around and you don't have to read it if its annoying to you. As we discovered when we spoke, we can actually find quite a few things that we agree on.

[Judge Pen]

High JD how are you??? Unfortunately Xia and flying monkey stumbled on to the exclusive SD thread.

They were both flabergasted by how they were treated when they asked a few questions about SD.

The thread should read SD members only not is it real, obviously the SD people get a little touchy about their style.

You can't blame the KF forum members when they accidently stumle on to this thread.

Just like my self when I saw this thread my first response was WTF. As far KCs response some of the terminology is wrong to begin with. On top that KCs response was missleading, he made it sound that Hung Ga and all those styles are part of SD.

He did not say he studied outside of SD and saying Lohan Chuan Hung Ga an all the other styles are in SD is like sayIng I know Choy Li Fut but I know Hung Ga because I know CLF.

greencloud.net

It's not an exculsive SD thread, but it is a thread exclusively about SD (and ocassionly some other topics). I have no problem with people asking legitimate questions, but forgive me for thinking that someone may actually be antagonistic instead of curious. Hung Gar isn't part of SD, but we have a version of Tiger-Crane duet. And KC did study 7 Star mantis before he took the first class of SD. I'm not sure if he studied any Hung Gar, but they man has a diverse MA background before SD. It's nice to compare notes with him.

How you ask goes a long way on how someone will answer. You and I had a friendly discourse on SD because you were polite and respectful while equally communicating your doubt and issues as to the legitimacy of the style. It was because of that communicaiton that I even took the time to post clips of me doing a form and fighting which led to even more discourse.

[Golden Tiger]

Unfortunately Xia and flying monkey stumbled on to the exclusive SD thread.

They were both flabergasted by how they were treated when they asked a few questions about SD.


Lets see....

1st post
I vote that it is not for real. My vote is based on what they claim they are.

2nd post
The drunken sword I watched showed little understanding of the sword. Especially, There is a lack of understanding in the wrist.

3rd post
The same goes for the spear vs broadsword.

The woman with the broadsword started with the sword in the right hand.
She showed a lack of understanding of proper attacks and defenses.
Her left hand movement was wrong.

The man with spear was the same.

He showed a lack of understanding of the weapon all together.
His attacks and defenses were non-sense.

There was a website with more forms. There were styles on that site that I didn't know, but i can easy see that they were wrong.

His first 3 posts seemed less than enquisative don't you think? More like I am right, what you do is wrong. Sorry he got flabergasted.:rolleyes:


Then we have the flabergasted The Xia....

1st post
I mean come on, Shaolin Do claims a man with hypertrichosis was taken in by Shaolin monks after being abandonded by his parents. Then they claim he learned everything Shaolin had and became the temple's first "grandmaster". On top of that, they claim that this is the Southern Shaolin Temple......
They expect people to believe that.

2nd post

Lets cut to the point......What the hell is Shaolin Do?

3rd post

kungfujunky, even the Shaolin Doka (a new term) on this forum don't defend such claims.


So Green Cloud, I too wonder why the SD faithful would get touchy when two people introduce themselves so politely and seek only information. ;)

[Radhnoti]

Lunghushan, I've not seen Su Kong Tai Djin in any other lineage excepting those beginning with the The' family. Could you elaborate please?

FM - "But their websites give the feeling that it is traditional Shaolin. And the way some of the SD cats on this forum act, they feel it is traditional."

Chinese enclaves in Indonesia often indicate they have the "real" kung-fu or that theirs is unchanged or purest. I suppose the feeling (of those IN the enclaves) is that the cultural revolution forced so much change, to the martial arts still inside China, that those martial artists in the Chinese enclaves were the last "true" practitioners. Also, many styles of kuntao teach bagua, hsing-i, and tai chi.
I've compared some kuntao schools claims against those of SD and the similarities, in many cases, is surprising.

Here's a website backing a bit of what I said:
http://www.mindspring.com/~achentaiji/kun%20tao.htm

Here's one that echoes GM Sin's, "If your primary interest is tournament skills, I advise you to seek your training elsewhere! Most of what you will learn here is too lethal for tournament use. I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport."

http://www.worldkungfu.com/kunhist.html

Here's a site stating that many kuntao schools had to rename their arts because of an Indonesian hatred of Chinese things/people:

ww.absoluteastronomy.com /encyclopedia/k/ku/kuntao.htm

Here's a kuntao school that renamed itself "kempo" because Japanese schools were so common...they also claim shaolin lineage, as do so many other kuntao schools:

http://www.mts.net/~sillum/art7.html

Anyway...there's LOTS more out there, in fact every time I check google to make little replies like this I find new things I hadn't before. Shaolin-do is kuntao and the stances they take on lots of issue are NOT dissimilar to other kuntao schools, in my opinion.

[lunghushan]

Lunghushan, I've not seen Su Kong Tai Djin in any other lineage excepting those beginning with the The' family. Could you elaborate please?


Unfortunately I can't remember where, but I think it was in a book from China. If I come across it I'll post the reference up here. But it's hard to forget a hairy faced guy.

[The Xia]

And Xia, I apologize if I was a bit abrupt.
No problem Judge Pen.

And heres for you Golden Tiger.

My first post

Wow this thread is long lol. Is this KFM's longest thread? Just from skimming through, this seems like a very complex and convoluted situation. Would someone be kind enough to define Shaolin-Do in a nutshell?
This was ignored so I then posted.

I went to wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin-Do
From first glance, one thing I find suspect is that Su Kong T'ai Djin mastered everything in the Shaolin temple and is therefore the "first ever Grandmaster of Shaolin."
Would you guys say this article is accurate?
And heres a challenge for you guys who've been debating the details back and forth.......is Shaolin-Do real Shaolin Gongfu?
And are they really making a movie on Sin The?
Then after this.

I've skimmed through this thread and others, looked at a little bit of outside stuff. There are alot of outrageous claims made in Shaolin Do. Normally, seeing such stuff would lead me to think "mcdojo!". However, Judge Pen seems to be way too savvy a guy to fall prey to Bullshido. From the surface of Shaolin Do information that I scratched, it seems that behind all the cooky claims there is something to it. As far as the cooky claims, when you combine bureaucracy with commercialism thats what you get. This is the impression Im getting.
And lastly.

Yeah the fact that some are mcdojos and others aren't makes me wonder. It says in the wikipedia article that all Shaolin Do belt testing is done by Sin The. If so, does this mean that belts are worth squat in the Shaolin Do organization being that the mcdojos would get the same testing?
These were my first posts. Far less blunt huh? I knew some on this forum, like Judge Pen, didn't buy the Su Kong story. It not only reads like a myth, it defies Gung Fu history. However, no one answered straight up what Shaolin Do is when I first asked. Its pretty clear that its a product of Indonesian blending (as Judge Pen acknowledged), but Shaolin Do sites still stick to the "Grandmaster" story. Look at http://www.shaolin-do.com/

[Green Cloud]

Lets see....

1st post


2nd post


3rd post


His first 3 posts seemed less than enquisative don't you think? More like I am right, what you do is wrong. Sorry he got flabergasted.:rolleyes:


Then we have the flabergasted The Xia....

1st post Ok let's see flying monkeys posted that the style isn't real, let's look at the title of the thread. It's asking members to give their opinion on whether the style is real or not. FM simply stated his opinion


2nd post FM is once again giving his educated opinion on the strait sword and simply offering his critique. It didn't seem rood



3rd post FM talks abou the two man set, well after watching it my self I would have to say that it was a bit chopy and the set didn't display the same type of energy that one sees in traditional 2 man sets. Lets just say it's different.




So Green Cloud, I too wonder why the SD faithful would get touchy when two people introduce themselves so politely and seek only information. ;) I don't know if you guys ever venture on the other forums like the KFF and the southern forum it's absolutely cut throat. FM was being reserved in my opinion.

Hell I'm a respected Sifu and the guys on this forum go off on me all the time, You can't take it to heart it's just a way to cut through the fat.

Once again from what I've read here I don't think these guys are out of line at all.

The problem is the title of the thread it self " Is SD real" So people are inclined to coment and speak there minds.

Just change the name of the thread to we are SD and we don't care what the rest of you think. That will eliminate nasty discusions.

greencloud.net

[Golden Tiger]

Sorry about that The Xia, I went back as far as I could in the time I had. My apologies.

Green Cloud, I don't mind being slammed one bit as long as the slamming is based in soo sort of personal experience. But just jumping on the band wagon as so many do here, well, I get annoyed with that.

[Judge Pen]

The problem is the title of the thread it self " Is SD real" So people are inclined to coment and speak there minds.

greencloud.net


Yep, and the thread was started by a poster with a total on "1" post on his account. Troll anyone?

Regarding Su Kong, I don't worry about it. Part of me would love for a book in China (or anywhere outside of SD's camp) to turn up referencing him as the long-lost Grand-master or whatever, just to see the fur fly around here (pun intended), but my point is whether he was real or not (and you would think that if he were real there would be independant verification somewhere) it doesn't matter in my training. If I'm asked about SD's history by a student, I'm very candid and it starts with "the story goes . . . . " Then I tell them that I think our material migrated and blended and became what it is today.

[Yao Sing]

More appropriately the thread should be called 'Is Shaolin-Do real Shaolin?' as that seems to be the issue in contention.

We've acertained that it is a real martial art although what variety has yet to be proven (or disproven).

[Judge Pen]

More appropriately the thread should be called 'Is Shaolin-Do real Shaolin?' as that seems to be the issue in contention.

We've acertained that it is a real martial art although what variety has yet to be proven (or disproven).

I guess we have to define what "real shaolin" is. Good luck doing that. :D

[The Xia]

Sorry about that The Xia, I went back as far as I could in the time I had. My apologies.
No problem.

[BoulderDawg]

Here's a question for some of you SDers (Black Belt and above):

Our school has frequent festivals (especially during the summer) and I try to make it to all of them if I can. We have one coming up called "Chi Kai Po An Sho Chang" or "Drunken Beggar Stick & Bowl".

Now I think it's important to learn as many forms as you can. However, for the life of me, I don't understand a form where, for all intent purposes, you walk around with a bamboo coffee cup covering the toes on your foot.:D

Does anyone out there know about this form?

[The Xia]

I'm sure everyone has seen this picture. http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/SKong.jpg
And here is another. http://www.centralshaolin.com/shaolin_images/SuKong2_close.jpg

However, pictures of someone with a disease doesn't prove that he is the "first grandmaster" of Shaolin. If this were true, he'd be recognized outside of Shaolin Do circles. Which he isn't.
The Su Kong story flies in the face of Kung Fu history. Historically speaking, the Southern Temple was burned before Su Kong is said to have existed. Someone with more knowledge of the Southern Shaolin Temple's timeline can elaborate.

[Golden Tiger]

Here's a question for some of you SDers (Black Belt and above):

We have one coming up called "Chi Kai Po An Sho Chang" or "Drunken Beggar Stick & Bowl".

Now I think it's important to learn as many forms as you can. However, for the life of me, I don't understand a form where, for all intent purposes, you walk around with a bamboo coffee cup covering the toes on your foot.:D

Does anyone out there know about this form?

It's a relatively easy form (1st Black material in the east) that use the stick for quick jabs, swinging strikes, and other hits and uses a cup as weapon (think striking open handed holding the cup bottom to palm.) It does have a few hard moves in it but most of all, its a fun form to learn and do. And for the record, the cup is only on the foot for a very short sequence (at least it used to be).

[Judge Pen]

I'm sure everyone has seen this picture. http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/SKong.jpg
And here is another. http://www.centralshaolin.com/shaolin_images/SuKong2_close.jpg

However, pictures of someone with a disease doesn't prove that he is the "first grandmaster" of Shaolin. If this were true, he'd be recognized outside of Shaolin Do circles. Which he isn't.
The Su Kong story flies in the face of Kung Fu history. Historically speaking, the Southern Temple was burned before Su Kong is said to have existed. Someone with more knowledge of the Southern Shaolin Temple's timeline can elaborate.

The thing is the Southern Shaolin Temple is equally steeped in myth. There is a debate as to its place in marital history and some will say that a Southern shaolin temple didn't even exist. Anyone claiming lineage to a southern shoulin temple is probably on shaky historical footing as far as documented marital history goes.

Now there are plenty of southern styles out there and many of them claim lineage to the 5 elders or the southern temple, but how much of it can be documented? Why do you think that the southern forum is such a hotbed of lienage debate? Ever heard of the "Green-grass" monk? His existence is also debated, yet a very well respected branch of CLF lays claim to a lineage that runs through him.

[The Willow Sword]

Ive already proved that Su kong is not "Su kong". if you, who are interested in my bit of research i shared on this particular thread, go back to page 44 of this thread and read on from there. i posted up two pictures, one of the alleged su kong and the other is the true identity and a pic of the same person(just not as cleaned up as the person is in the suit and tie) Su Kong's name is "Li Baoshu" and was part of the beijing zoo exhibit in china back in the 1930's. there is no mention of him as being connected with any martial arts or the shaolin temple whatsoever.

The other pic i found of Su kong/ Li baoshu was from an article on a website that i just stumbled upon(having nothing to do with the shaolin temple or martial arts). i noticed right off the bat the similarity between that pic and the dressed up pic of what the Sd'ers claim as Su kong. well i began a correspondance with the man who created that article( prof.Frank Dikotter) and emailed him the pic of su kong. He corroberated that it was the same person(being that this man is a professor of geneological studies at the university of london in the UK) who better qualified to make such a comparison than someone of that background? well i was convinced and it doesnt take much smarts to realize that the two pics ARE the same person(hehe unless you are a brainwashed cultist who believes every single thing that is told to you) Now there are many references to that particular disease and there are pics of OTHERS who have the affliction and they all look similar in that they have the disease, but if you use alittle smarts and a little common sense you can obviously see the differences in facial features and such. but with the two pics of li baoshu one all messed up to look more like a lion and the gussied up photo, you see them to be the same person in everyway and like i said before, it was corroborated by a legitamate source and a person with a degree in geneology. so as far as i am concerned the CRUXT of the SD myth IS that picture of the alleged "hairy grandmaster"

SO anyway go back to page 44 of this thread and read from there my posts and what i have shared. yeah its downplayed by just about every loyalist sd memeber here(the denial is staggering) and i also give the exact BOOK of where that older photo of li baoshu was taken(not the dressed up one) the one that prof. Dikotter sourced to put that other pic in his article.

the suit and tie photo is an enigma indeed because the book that it came from is no longer in print and otherwise unavailable. but the Book in question is Supposed to be at the University library in Lexington KY. but i wouldnt imagine that you would find it there anymore. given that the HUB of SD is in lexington.

anyway, this whole thread seems to run in cycles where people bring up the same things but just spin it in a different way. if you have the time go back to the first 60 pages of this thread and you will see what i mean.

(now watch the denial start up again and the poo fly):rolleyes:

TWS

[The Xia]

There is an archeological site that is believed to be the remains of the Southern Shaolin Temple. The thing is, the "grandmaster" story goes against the Five Elders stories. The Five Elders story varies, but is recounted by various lineages and folk tales. The "grandmaster" story is only recognized by Shaolin Do.

[The Xia]

Great research Willow Sword!

[brucereiter]

Historically speaking, the Southern Temple was burned before Su Kong is said to have existed. Someone with more knowledge of the Southern Shaolin Temple's timeline can elaborate.

hi xia,

as i understand it from sources outside of sd, the "southern" shaolin temple was not just one building in one location but was many buildings in the same part of china. all doing there own thing with only loose ties to each other. i really do not know the facts as there are so many versions of the "truth".

i think the time line would depend on the definition of what / where the southern temple is. was it one building? and was this one building destroyed in the mid 1600's?

was it one main building that was destroyed in the mid 1600's and several smaller temples in the surrounding area that continued to practice martial arts of some sort until the early 1900's?

i wish i had a way to verify but i dont. does this take away from my skill/understanding and my enjoyment of the art i practice? no it does not ...

[kungfujunky]

as far as the su kong pics go my personal opinion is that it is just a pic used to convey what he looked like.

there are no pics out there of ie chang ming either so a painting is used. it stands to reason that there are no pics of su kong since he was a monk in a temple where such things were not done.

wether this is true or not i dont know but i will ask gmt when i see him again about it

[BoulderDawg]

Not that it effects the way I feel about the art but I've also wondered why there were no pictures of Le.

The man lived in modern times and was suppose to be one of the best...It looks like someone would have taken his picture.

[The Xia]

as far as the su kong pics go my personal opinion is that it is just a pic used to convey what he looked like.
Come on kungfujunky, thats a pretty weak excuse. When the Li Baoshu picture is posted, they call it Su Kong. They don't say, "This is what Su Kong may have looked like."

Perhaps many years from now, when William Hung is forgotten, someone will take a picture of him, change the name, and attribute a style to him. All of the style's techniques will be accounted for in the deadly "She Bang" Form. :p :D

[The Xia]

What is Sin The's stance on the wild claims? Did he come up with them or is it people in his organization?

And what do you guys make of this quote by him?

"If your primary interest is tournament skills, I advise you to seek your training elsewhere! Most of what you will learn here is too lethal for tournament use. I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.'
As did the immortals, we should learn to destroy so that we may preserve! It is a way of truth. The knowledge that I offer you is not an athletic training; it is a sacred trust."

[kungfujunky]

Come on kungfujunky, thats a pretty weak excuse. When the Li Baoshu picture is posted, they call it Su Kong. They don't say, "This is what Su Kong may have looked like."

Perhaps many years from now, when William Hung is forgotten, someone will take a picture of him, change the name, and attribute a style to him. All of the style's techniques will be accounted for in the deadly "She Bang" Form. :p :D

as my quote so plainly stated it is MY OPINION..not an excuse.

i based my opinion on a number of different factors. i didnt post it for you to twist the words i wrote into another flame post by you

as for the quote....i agree with the quote. in tournaments we do not fair well because we dont follow rules. we hit what is left open with speed and efficiency and power.

power most judges cant see and wont acknowledge

[lunghushan]

Regarding Su Kong, I don't worry about it. Part of me would love for a book in China (or anywhere outside of SD's camp) to turn up referencing him as the long-lost Grand-master or whatever, just to see the fur fly around here (pun intended), but my point is whether he was real or not (and you would think that if he were real there would be independant verification somewhere) it doesn't matter in my training. If I'm asked about SD's history by a student, I'm very candid and it starts with "the story goes . . . . " Then I tell them that I think our material migrated and blended and became what it is today.

I think it might have been in a book from kungfulibrary.com, but I can't remember.

I definitely came across a reference to that guy somewhere before hearing about Shaolin-Do, but I can't remember where.

As for the Circus thing, just because the guy was in the circus doesn't mean he didn't do martial arts. For example, a lot of martial arts were passed on by people in the Opera, for example Fook Yeung, who still is around and kicking I think in Seattle, and who Bruce Lee trained with after coming to the U.S. (something that people seem to forget about or just never knew about).

[The Xia]

as my quote so plainly stated it is MY OPINION..not an excuse.

i based my opinion on a number of different factors. i didnt post it for you to twist the words i wrote into another flame post by you
I directly quoted you. I didn't say it was not your opinion. However, your opinion is a defense of the picture's use in response to Willow Sword's research. So it is an excuse.
Here is the definition of excuse from dictionary.com
"–verb (used with object)
1. to regard or judge with forgiveness or indulgence; pardon or forgive; overlook (a fault, error, etc.): Excuse his bad manners.
2. to offer an apology for; seek to remove the blame of: He excused his absence by saying that he was ill.
3. to serve as an apology or justification for; justify: Ignorance of the law excuses no one.
4. to release from an obligation or duty: to be excused from jury duty.
5. to seek or obtain exemption or release for (oneself): to excuse oneself from a meeting.
6. to refrain from exacting; remit; dispense with: to excuse a debt.
7. to allow (someone) to leave: If you'll excuse me, I have to make a telephone call.
–noun
8. an explanation offered as a reason for being excused; a plea offered in extenuation of a fault or for release from an obligation, promise, etc.: His excuse for being late was unacceptable.
9. a ground or reason for excusing or being excused: Ignorance is no excuse.
10. the act of excusing someone or something.
11. a pretext or subterfuge: He uses his poor health as an excuse for evading all responsibility.
12. an inferior or inadequate specimen of something specified: That coward is barely an excuse for a man. Her latest effort is a poor excuse for a novel."
Your defense fits the definition of an excuse.

As for the William Hung thing....well that was just a joke and you have to admit its clever.

as for the quote....i agree with the quote. in tournaments we do not fair well because we dont follow rules. we hit what is left open with speed and efficiency and power.

power most judges cant see and wont acknowledge
There are many traditional martial arts techniques you can't use in sanctioned tournaments. However, this does not mean that traditional martial arts cannot be used in tournaments. If it were true that traditional martial arts cannot be used in tournaments, then you can't spar without being killed or maimed. This is obviousely not the case. Therefore, traditional martial arts can be used for tournaments.

[kungfujunky]

again.....i did not refute what tws posted. i simply stated my opinion...i did not make excuses for what tws had found out.

and why spar in a tournament when the judges wont acknowledge your strikes and many of the openings you are trained to react to arent allowed?

i know people who have went to tournaments to spar and the judges simply did not count their strikes.

again i did not say you cant use it in tournaments...i said i agree with the quote that tournament training is not what we do. we train to fight and protect ourselves. yes we learn deadly moves...many of them in fact...but on the street im sure those moves would not be the first ones used lol

i myself actually practice non lethal moves so as to stop a fight instead of causing physical damage to my opponent. most people will back off when a palm strike to the chest sends them flying.

part of the shaolin way is exactly what gmt says. we learn to destroy so that we may preserve. which i interprut to mean i learn how to defend myself with great efficiency so that when the time comes for a fight i can simply walk away knowing their was no real threat to me or my pride. i dont have to prove myself in tournaments or on the street.






having said all that yes i have gotten into fights on the street. only 2 though since i began my training.

i failed in the respect that i did not walk away but i did take care of the attackers without harming them which i am proud of.

[lunghushan]

We should probably just drop the real vs. not real arguments. How are you supposed to know if they are 'real' or not? What is 'real' anyway? Really Shaolin? Who the heck cares?

Find some old ancient manuals and see if it matches up, that's about the best you could do.

[Radhnoti]

Wow, TWS, I apologize for not commenting on those pics before...that looks like the same guy to me. Same lips, same eyes, similar hair length (long on nose and top, but small beard). I didn't see where you mentioned corresponding with the author of the article before? Did that happen a good while after you posted that? Bejing zoo exhibit? I wonder if that was a traveling exhibit? Lots of second hand info has GM Ie traveling around all over "even up into Korea".

'Course everyone knows I think Tai Djin (Li?) was a circus performer that taught Ie as they roamed around with the show...and, really, who's to say Su Kong Tai Djin/Li didn't know a shaolin form or two...or 900? :D

No, actually, I've always felt that to be overstated as well...I have heard that GM Sin's brother rolls his eyes at the 900+ forms statement. If true, GM Sin is certainly not "on schedule" to have all the material taught to students in his lifetime, how many have been taught out, in total? 300? 400? Less than half in 40ish years? I know he's in good health (and I hope he continues to be) but if he's thinkin' he'll have another 40 years to get it all out...well...GM Ie died at much younger than 100.

[The Xia]

again.....i did not refute what tws posted. i simply stated my opinion...i did not make excuses for what tws had found out.
You made an excuse for the use of that picture. It isn't an insult to say you made an excuse.


And I wasn't talking about point sparring. I was talking about full contact sparring. They have full contact tournaments. San Shou has proven to be great venue for Gung Fu stylists to compete. Traditional martial arts were developed for life and death situations, but this doesn't mean they can't be used in sanctioned tournaments. You just can't do certain things, thats all.

[lunghushan]

You made an excuse for the use of that picture. It isn't an insult to say you made an excuse.


And I wasn't talking about point sparring. I was talking about full contact sparring. They have full contact tournaments. San Shou has proven to be great venue for Gung Fu stylists to compete. Traditional martial arts were developed for life and death situations, but this doesn't mean they can't be used in sanctioned tournaments. You just can't do certain things, thats all.

San Shou sucks. All you can do is "punch, kick and throw." Might as well just do kickboxing.

[brucereiter]

What is Sin The's stance on the wild claims? Did he come up with them or is it people in his organization?

And what do you guys make of this quote by him?


hi xia,

i wonder the same thing about grandmaster the' if he cares about some of the "wild" claims.

i think many misunderstandings have come from things said in james halladay's book. i do not think they were Malicious though just misunderstandings that for reasons unknown to me were never corrected.

i have heard some stories from gmt first hand and they seem to be the truth and then i have read about the same story somewhere else and i am like that is not what he said or meant ...

i think this quote is good and represents part of what shaolin do is. maybe a little dramitic but valid.

sd is not a sport, bagua for example one of the main internal arts in shaolin do most of the moves in this style are not appropriate for a tournament as they would cause bodily harm that is not to say you cant beat someone with out hurting them but ...

xia what do you think about that quote? as someone not in the system how does it sound?

[The Xia]

xia what do you think about that quote? as someone not in the system how does it sound?
Saying that it is too lethal for tournament use sounds doesn't sound good at all. The thing is, traditional martial arts can be used for tournaments. Neck breaks, eye gouging, small joint manipulation, groin strikes, and tons of other stuff are out. However, you can still use alot of other things. A single technique can be used in many different ways. For example, you go full force with an armbar and the opponant will be in serious trouble. However, in a tournament you don't do that (just as you wouldn't do that in practice).