random observations on a return to TCMA

[lkfmdc]

This last week or so I've returned to teaching Lama Pai at my school. Perhaps I'm just "venting" or perhaps my observations might be interesting to some?

For better or for worse, I am starting at ground zero/square one. This is quite different from my previous teaching experience. Initially, we "converted" our Hung Ga school into a Lama Pai school, ie we walked in one day, told everyone to trash what they had done before and started teaching Chan Tai San's material. We were also teaching as Chan Tai San was teaching us, ie we had not completed the system and thus we didn't see the whole pie fully yet...

Close to 18 years of doing the system, of meeting others in our lineage, and those in associated lineages, and I have a different perspective on the organization of the tradition and perhaps how to approach passing it on.

Aging, perhaps "maturity" has resulted in some patience as well. I am no longer anxious to teach too quickly, my current plan is to do 12 months of technique work before teaching the sets.

I also plan on sticking to the core sets. I see no reason why every set has to be passed on, especially the more than 80 hand sets which my teacher collected, many different versions of the same set, beginner sets, and variations on a theme sets...

Perhaps more importantly, I am beginning to see TCMA's place within my larger teaching and operation.

My existing (ie experienced) San Da students are finding the same principles just a different outward shape, and a different methodology of approaching it. They are adding to their base, building upon their foundation, and coming along well.

Those who are new, who haven't trained much, are having a hard time as they always had with Lama....

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
I see no reason why every set has to be passed on, especially the more than 80 hand sets which my teacher collected, many different versions of the same set, beginner sets, and variations on a theme sets... At the same time, it would be shame for them to just vanish once you are gone. Do you plan to (or are they already) document them for posterity? Maybe pass them on to a select few (or just one) who are interested?

[hasayfu]

lkfmdc,

thanks for sharing. I for one am intersted in how this journey of yours unfolds.

I support your choice of sticking to core sets. Many times the other sets gets a "collecting" mentality and not one of refinement. Collecting can be done in the later years.

I found this very interesting,"Perhaps more importantly, I am beginning to see TCMA's place within my larger teaching and operation.

My existing (ie experienced) San Da students are finding the same principles just a different outward shape, and a different methodology of approaching it. They are adding to their base, building upon their foundation, and coming along well. "

Like to see where that thought goes...

[ShaolinTiger00]

Like to see where that thought goes...

"Hey Coach, Why aren't we doing pad work?"



;)

[Kymus]

whatever sets you keep, whether 8, 80, or 800, always keep in mind to constantly go over the technique and applications. I think one of the reasons why most fights looks like poor kickboxing is because no one trains and practices what they learn. I've done countless hours of tan sau, bong sau, lop sau, pak sau drills that I am able to freely do it in a fight, and often will. If it's not practiced, it will never work. I am sure you already know this, but it can't be emphasised enough.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
"Hey Coach, Why aren't we doing pad work?"



;)

well, we spent an hour and a half doing ONE TECHNIQUE, we did it standing, we did it on HEAVY BAGS, we did it walking and we did it against a person throwing random punches...... so I still insist that contact with something is essential

[ShaolinTiger00]

David,

Do you think that teaching traditional cma is somehow more respectful to your sifu than teaching san shou, or is this something you've always wanted to do?

[lkfmdc]

Honestly, I can't say yet what or why I am doing.... in some sense, I'm responding to my teacher's loss, at the same time I was already planning to integrate more advanced skills into my program.... so which came first? Did I get inspired by my teacher? Or was I already heading in that direction?

very zen :cool:

[red5angel]

Perhaps more importantly, I am beginning to see TCMA's place within my larger teaching and operation.


I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this....

[ShaolinTiger00]

good luck.

[Serpent]

I'm not being an arse, perhaps this just comes from the way I train, but I really don't see the difference. Teaching TCMA should include, not exclude, extensive pad work, live drills, sparring, etc. I really don't see why there's much of a leap.

Alternatively, I do think there's an issue with lkfmdc's previous attitude towards TCMA and his new direction now.

Am I to assume that all of you guys think TCMA and see a complete lack pad work, contact drills, sparring, etc.?

[rogue]

David, I think you got our attention. Please keep posting on this thread about what you're doing.

I also plan on sticking to the core sets. I see no reason why every set has to be passed on, especially the more than 80 hand sets which my teacher collected, many different versions of the same set, beginner sets, and variations on a theme sets...
Smart. Do you know why he collected all those sets to begin with?

[richard sloan]

why wouldn't you practice hitting something in TCMA?

shouldn't you be hitting stuff all the time no matter what MA you train?

[Brad]

You'd think so, but a lot of times that doesn't happen :p

[mickey]

Greetings,

From a cultural perspective, I think it would be a loss to eliminate forms. While I respsect your need to create a solid core curriculum, I suggest that you archive the others and make it available to those who want to pass on the tradition-- much like an advanced studies section.

mickey

[Judge Pen]

Serpent, we even do pad work in our internal classes, but then again I do SD, so what do I know. ;)

It sounds like sifu Ross has an excellent approach. I have a friend in the New York area that was looking for TCMA. I'll see if I can send him your way.

[cerebus]

I think it's great the way he's decided to go about it. A year of techniques training before starting in on forms and then sticking with the core sets. Keeps the training traditional while also making it "lean & mean" so to speak. Any art that's been around as long as Lama Pai tends to accumulate more sets than are really needed. Such "extra" sets can (as was pointed out) be learned later if so desired. Congratulations Sifu Ross. :)

[Oso]

good post, lkfmdc. Definitely looking forward to hearing more as you move forward.

especially glad to hear I'm not the only one to teach as I learn and I definitely sympathise as I try to learn the Pong Lai Mantis material and teach it at the same time. Going from teaching a system I spent 11 years learning to one where I'm despirately trying to stay one step ahead of my students is very challenging.

Hasn't it been said a bunch here that most systems will have 3-6 forms at the core?

[David Jamieson]

it seems that at the core of any fighting art, there are principles of the style that are held in 2 or three forms that build progressively on each other.

A "collection" of forms lets you see some other techniques that perhaps your style does not have. For instance, there are different types of strikes from teh first system of cma I learned that are not present in the styles I learn now. Go figure. I knew of these techniques but they were simply not present in the former style.

There really aren't any super ancient forms, so I am not certain it is a cultural loss to lose a form here or there that basically is a resequenced iteration of techniques that have been around for a while and are found and executed same same in other forms or styles.

Gravy can have hundreds of flavours, but it is still gravy.

So, Ross, when you gonna get your san shou guys into the head space of utilizing Lama pai in a ring scenario? Gonna take a hack at killing the myth of not being able to use a tcma in the ring? :p

[SifuAbel]

I beleive I see in the distance.............


........the tip of the iceberg.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

you should start visiting other tma schools and help them get their heads out of their asses.

[lkfmdc]

As more thoughts drift out of my mind...

I am still amazed, and disgusted, at how the Chinese martial arts image, appeal and those attracted to it have changed from when I was practicing it.

Since I publicly advertised my class, I've gotten a few calls, not many, yet already yahoo's are calling. I never get these calls in other advertising.

I got a guy who tried to keep me on the phone so he could tell me how he became a great "fighter" (his own words) by watching kung fu movies and teaching himself teh moves

:rolleyes:

I got the standard sino-phile who wanted to know if the teacher was Chinese, and if not, if Chinese "masters" would be around watching :confused: (puke)

A person who apparently hasn't grasp the skill of reading wondered when Wong Yan Lam would be visiting. I said that since he has been dead over 50 years, I wouldn't hold my breath :rolleyes:

Thus, so far, I have once again observed that the open door, when "kung fu" is above the doorway, brings many unworthy candidates....

and good candidates come frequently from an initial inclination towards what they believed to be "fighting arts" (ie boxing, kickboxing, Thai, wrestling, Judo, etc) but become interested in Chinese martial art only when convinced it is really, gasp, a FIGHTING ART....

IE, a few of my students had no idea I did "traditional stuff" and then were amazed to find out that the traditional classes I would be teaching would ALSO focus on fighting (like my San Da classes)

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

like i said ....

you might make a small dent in the bull**** one day.

[SifuAbel]

I think its the other way around. The BS became standard when the fighting teachers went elsewhere.

[richard sloan]

oh the stories I could tell about that kind of stuff...

[diego]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
As more thoughts drift out of my mind...

I am still amazed, and disgusted, at how the Chinese martial arts image, appeal and those attracted to it have changed from when I was practicing it.

Since I publicly advertised my class, I've gotten a few calls, not many, yet already yahoo's are calling. I never get these calls in other advertising.

I got a guy who tried to keep me on the phone so he could tell me how he became a great "fighter" (his own words) by watching kung fu movies and teaching himself teh moves

:rolleyes:

I got the standard sino-phile who wanted to know if the teacher was Chinese, and if not, if Chinese "masters" would be around watching :confused: (puke)

A person who apparently hasn't grasp the skill of reading wondered when Wong Yan Lam would be visiting. I said that since he has been dead over 50 years, I wouldn't hold my breath :rolleyes:

Thus, so far, I have once again observed that the open door, when "kung fu" is above the doorway, brings many unworthy candidates....

and good candidates come frequently from an initial inclination towards what they believed to be "fighting arts" (ie boxing, kickboxing, Thai, wrestling, Judo, etc) but become interested in Chinese martial art only when convinced it is really, gasp, a FIGHTING ART....

IE, a few of my students had no idea I did "traditional stuff" and then were amazed to find out that the traditional classes I would be teaching would ALSO focus on fighting (like my San Da classes)

lol at the yahoos:)

I missed the part about why beginners find it hard to use Lama in a fight, would you tell me more about your teaching experiances with that?.

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by lkfmdc

I got a guy who tried to keep me on the phone so he could tell me how he became a great "fighter" (his own words) by watching kung fu movies and teaching himself teh moves

:rolleyes:


geeze, you didn't have to post this all over the web. Just becasue I learn all my kung-fu from watching Ti Lung movie doesn't make them ineffective. :D :D :D

You might want to drop the "kung-fu" from the name and change it into Lama Pai Combat system. That should throw off these yahoo and keep them away. geeze combat, that doesn't sound like kung-fu.

[diego]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk
geeze, you didn't have to post this all over the web. Just becasue I learn all my kung-fu from watching Ti Lung movie doesn't make them ineffective. :D :D :D

You might want to drop the "kung-fu" from the name and change it into Lama Pai Combat system. That should throw off these yahoo and keep them away. geeze combat, that doesn't sound like kung-fu. not to butt in, but that is true me thinks...start telling yahoos it's from mystical tibet and you gonna be bombarded with lineups of cats carrying fruity koolaid packets namsayin:D

[Serpent]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
As more thoughts drift out of my mind...

I am still amazed, and disgusted, at how the Chinese martial arts image, appeal and those attracted to it have changed from when I was practicing it.

I think Ross might be ignoring me, but I'll post this anyway.

I'm surprised that you're amazed and disgusted, considering that you've been one of the most vocal people casting some pretty serious sh!t on TCMA training yourself up till now.

[rogue]

if Chinese "masters" would be around watching (puke)


Make them happy. Just get the cook from the nearest Chinese takeout place to take his smoke break in your school. What they don't know...

[TenTigers]

David, as far as which came first? Sometimes ya just need that little extra push do do the thing your heart was telling you for so long. I dunno, "validation"? whatever it takes, I for one am glad to hear it.
-Rik

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by rogue
Make them happy. Just get the cook from the nearest Chinese takeout place to take his smoke break in your school. What they don't know...

yeah, then tell the student, you see the belly that the "chinese master" got. that's all qi. If you really work hard and diligent, you too can have a belly like that. watch their envy. :D :o :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by lkfmdc

and good candidates come frequently from an initial inclination towards what they believed to be "fighting arts" (ie boxing, kickboxing, Thai, wrestling, Judo, etc) but become interested in Chinese martial art only when convinced it is really, gasp, a FIGHTING ART....

IE, a few of my students had no idea I did "traditional stuff" and then were amazed to find out that the traditional classes I would be teaching would ALSO focus on fighting (like my San Da classes)

Why don't you use that to your advantage? Take those students and train the sh!t outta them. Let them run rampant in san da and other venues. Coming from the backgrounds that they did, they are used to intense training anyway. When word gets out that these guys are kicking ass and taking names using lama pai, a small revolution will start.

[shaolinboxer]

Forms change from one generation to the next in every style. New forms are added, old forms are forgotten, etc. Especially the "advanced" forms which are rarely practiced by anyone.

Perhaps you could teach one form in the first year to facilitate individual practice.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk


You might want to drop the "kung-fu" from the name and change it

You mean like calling it something like "SAN DA" :eek:

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by Serpent
I think Ross might be ignoring me



He's smarter than he looks folks,

but still doesn't get a single ounce or grain of sand of my criticisms really at all......:rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Why don't you use that to your advantage? Take those students and train the sh!t outta them. Let them run rampant in san da and other venues. Coming from the backgrounds that they did, they are used to intense training anyway. When word gets out that these guys are kicking ass and taking names using lama pai, a small revolution will start.

Ah, but that's exactly what we already did. We started off with a school no one heard of and became one of the most potent forces in fighting in the US in about 7 years. Let's not forget, our gym puts guys in Golden Gloves boxing (finalist and semi finalist every year in NYC is astounding for a non boxing place), submission grappling, MMA events, kickboxing, etc etc etc

But we did it because we realized the "fighting types" don't want to train "traditional" and so we trained them "san da" way......

People say "you should train them to fight with Lama", well, what do you think I really teach anyway? When Rich Acosta beats a Mongolian for a San Da world title (like he did Sept 4th) is he kickboxing?

Here's something to consider, other than boxing in PAL at age 8 (which is a while back now), I have trained nothing but Chinese martial art. I have done no Muay Thai. I have never trained in a "kickboxing" school. So where is it coming from really?

[SifuAbel]

Pardon me for playing devils advocate here, but, weren't we saying that like 6 months ago?

[lkfmdc]

Well, being the devil and all...

My point all along has been that if you train "traditional" then you have a lot of people who are struggling to "get it".... Someone always kind find examples of talented traditional martial artists and fighters, but these are single individuals in a tradition that has thousands, hundred of thousands even, of people doing them

My old statement was, if 100 people do "traditional" then maybe 5 will "get it".... I don't want 5% of my school getting it while 95% is "lost"

If I have a small group within the larger group doing "traditional" then if that small group is only 5, that's fine, and that's ultimately what I think the point is....

[David Jamieson]

Where I trained, San Da was part of traditional training. You just didn't get to do it until you were advanced enough to at least defend yourself and attack properly.

The lower levels of sparring were very controlled and metered. My former sifu was pretty rigid about correct execution and use of techniques from the kungfu in the free fighting. So it was a gradual build up.

also, never discount the augmentation of natural ability. some people train for years and years and still can't fight worth sh1t.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
He's smarter than he looks folks,

but still doesn't get a single ounce or grain of sand of my criticisms really at all......:rolleyes:
So explain yourself then. You really are an arrogant sob.

[SifuAbel]

Frankly, I always thought those numbers(like so many numbers out there) are a bit scewed.

One, What is "getting it"? Basic skills?
Two, out of 300 people you don't have 300 Marvin Perrys.
There will always be better and worse in any given school.

[SevenStar]

you're right about that, but they will still become very competent very quickly. Put those 300 sport guys in a ring, cage, etc. with 300 traditional guys and.....

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by lkfmdc

But we did it because we realized the "fighting types" don't want to train "traditional" and so we trained them "san da" way......


surely there's a middle ground, no? you are dropping all but the core sets anyway, so how about starting the class with technique training - stances, strikes, etc. afterwards, have them doing drills allowing them to see precisely how it applies to san da. Perhps if they are constantly shown the direct correlation, a traditional approach won't be so horrible in their eyes.

[diego]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
Well, being the devil and all...

My point all along has been that if you train "traditional" then you have a lot of people who are struggling to "get it".... Someone always kind find examples of talented traditional martial artists and fighters, but these are single individuals in a tradition that has thousands, hundred of thousands even, of people doing them

My old statement was, if 100 people do "traditional" then maybe 5 will "get it".... I don't want 5% of my school getting it while 95% is "lost"

If I have a small group within the larger group doing "traditional" then if that small group is only 5, that's fine, and that's ultimately what I think the point is....

makes sence...good luck with that:)

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by SevenStar
you're right about that, but they will still become very competent very quickly. Put those 300 sport guys in a ring, cage, etc. with 300 traditional guys and.....

Its still not what it seems. 300 TCMA, from which school? Do we pick a school that doesn't do contact training? Do we pick a school that does? Do we hand pick 300 each?

Why do people assume NO TCMA schools train with contact and do ALL the things the sport people do PLUS all the things they don't?

Contact fighting, hard conditioning, pad and bag work, I did it. I paid for my skills in blood and sweat.

[rubthebuddha]

teeth, abel, don't forget teeth. i've seen your dental x-rays. :D

i think what sevenstar's getting at is 300 from all over the place. 10 students from your school and 10 from mine and 10 from that taiji hippy teaching the over at the college -- it's more of a composite.

300 people who train to fight one-on-one will be better (on average) than 300 who may or may not have spent as much time fighting. however, those other benefits that the kung fu will focus will serve other purposes. for overall coordination, my money would be on a hard-working kung fu guy rather than a hard-working boxer. for fighting skill, probably the opposite. i'd bring up those other intangibles like modesty and self control, but we've been on this forum long enough to know that such isn't always the case. ;)

[SifuAbel]

"who may or may not have spent as much time fighting."

Composite or no, to me, if the people in question don't practice fighting then they are NOT training traditionally.

My 10 will fight formidably. I can't vouch for anyone else.

[norther practitioner]

My 10 will fight formidably. I can't vouch for anyone else.



I think that is what Ross is trying to say as well...

Unfortunately, like differential equations, we all have complex formulas.. The whole point behind these different schools was that people saw results from different types of training. Some emphasis is lost here, but maybe gained in another area. Unfortunately, the big X in the equation, fighting, instead of being squared is now being divided by 2.

[scotty1]

Good points Abel.

And everyone else though.

I can see all points, the average kung fu guy would get creamed - but is the average kung fu guy really representative of traditional training?

[TenTigers]

two things-the average Kung-Fu guy will get creamed is because the average Kung-Fu guy has been learning tournament kickboxing and not Kung-Fu.

the second-David, will you be teaching "Sup Bot Lo-Fan Kuen"?
:D

[SifuAbel]

For those that have just joined us.

thats "18 foreign devil fist".

shhhhhhhh ancient chi...., er, tibetan secret

[omarthefish]

Very interesting thread.

I was ignoring the topic untill I noticed who started it.

That is all.