Defense against a horizontal knife slash

[FngSaiYuk]

What are some good techniques for defending against a horizontal knife slash? Left to right, right to left, blade tip pointed towards, blade tip pointed away, etc?

I've seen a lot of knife thrust, stab and vertical slashes defense techniques, but never any horizontal slash techniques (other than staying away).

Oh and what do you do if you're cornered (which is where I'm assuming is my most likely predicament if I'm facing a horizontal knife slash).

[yenhoi]

Many Options depends on many variables.

You can counter any angle with the same angle.

So you can counter right to left horizontals with right to left horizontal motions of your own.

Etc. Many others.

:eek:

[rogue]

Start shooting center mass and walk them up to his head.

[Christopher M]

Many of the principles of empty hand still apply: you should be thinking in terms of intercepting early or late, and forming techniques around bump-hit-control.

The main difference, and it's a whopper, is that the knife wielder does not need momentum to attack you. This has some serious implications for what counts as control of the opponent's body.

[SPJ]

Get a bat or a short staff or a frying pan.

Or take your coat or shirt off and make a rope by twisting it and slap or whip the opponent's hand or use a thick belt with a buckle.

You need something to create a safe distance from the wielding knife.

A shoe or whatever.

Fake a high hit and then go down and sweep his leg or scissor cut his legs.

Use your prop to press on the opponent's wrist or forearm and take the knife away.

Aim for the wirst or forearm and hit hard so the grip is loose and falls the knife. or hit hard on the back of his hand.

Always get ready to move back a bit or half a step and get ready to kick his approaching knee. He has to get close enough to start slashing sidewise.

Call the cop or just run.

Do not engage the opponent with a weapon.

No hero stuff please.

Pepper spray or sand on his eyes. Use fire extinguxher, a desk phone, a chair, or something and hit his hands or forearm then his head.

on and on.

[Serpent]

The best defence against any knife attack is to run the fvck away.

[rogue]

Ditto Christopher M.
The problem using horizontal slash techniques, I'm assuming you're meaning the big extended ones, is that they leave the user at various points open and crossed with the blade moving away from the target. Somebody like knifefighter would know better if they are used, but I don't remember any of the pros that I know using that motion.

Oh and what do you do if you're cornered (which is where I'm assuming is my most likely predicament if I'm facing a horizontal knife slash).
Define "cornered". A horizontal slash is at it's worst when there are things in the way of the slash. What's keeping you cornered would also interfere with the slash.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by rogue
Define "cornered". A horizontal slash is at it's worst when there are things in the way of the slash. What's keeping you cornered would also interfere with the slash.

The scenario would be AFTER attempts at flight have failed, ergo the 'cornered' bit. Somehow your back is against a wall and you have an assailant weilding a knife and moving towards you in the manner of an experienced fighter.

No momentum and commited attacks, using the blade intelligently to cut at any limbs that may enter within range of the blade, no other weapons available other than the clothes and shoes that are worn.

I'm having a very difficult time coming up with a good and somewhat 'safe' defense against a knife weilder. Everytime I play spar with a rubber knife, we always all end up getting cut. So I'm interested to know if there are any decent techniques when unarmed against an experienced knife fighter.

[joedoe]

Well, IMO (though not very experienced in knife fighting opinion) if you are facing a knife you want room to manouvre. If you are cornered with no room to move, and nothing to maintain the distance with (e.g. stick) then you are pretty much screwed.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by joedoe
Well, IMO (though not very experienced in knife fighting opinion) if you are facing a knife you want room to manouvre. If you are cornered with no room to move, and nothing to maintain the distance with (e.g. stick) then you are pretty much screwed.

Which is exactly how my scenarios keep playing out when the horizontal slash is used. I'm able to deal with stabs and thrusts when I get my timing right... It's the slashes I'm having difficulty dealing with.

[joedoe]

I guess the only thing I can think of is to step inside and try to jam the slashing hand while attacking the wielder, but this sounds pretty low percentage to me. But then again, I think most knife defences are probably low percentage.

[rogue]

Everytime I play spar with a rubber knife, we always all end up getting cut. Get used to that idea because that's what usually happens when you go empty hand vs knife. Think minimizing the damage from the cut you will get by protecting places that will cause you to bleed out fast or disable you. Still sucks but you're looking for the best out of options that are all bad.

So I'm interested to know if there are any decent techniques when unarmed against an experienced knife fighter. No.
Also many experienced knife fighers will use their free hand and legs to make openings for the knife to end your life ASAP. In general if you're going up against someone experienced in h2h, knife, gun or stick and you are not, kiss your ass goodbye.

Maybe knifefighter will drop in. He's worked alot with this sort of thing.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by rogue
Think minimizing the damage from the cut you will get

Eg. bridge with the backs of the forearms rather than their bellys; a habit you'll have to ingrain in your regular empty hands practice.

[blooming lotus]

against an experienced fighter, I definately agree with maintaining the distance if you can, but I think a well planted round to wrist and or back of hand you might get away with. If it didn't disarm them, it might distract him / her enough to give you a gap to close, then options widen. But you'd need to be quick on the close and hard on the kick.

What art are you studying?? Alot of styles have knife defences and ninjutsu and even tkd to lesser extent is awesome for it.

cheers

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
against an experienced fighter, I definately agree with maintaining the distance if you can, but I think a well planted round to wrist and or back of hand you might get away with. If it didn't disarm them, it might distract him / her enough to give you a gap to close, then options widen. But you'd need to be quick on the close and hard on the kick.


No matter what timing and speed I pull my kicks and strikes, off, my limbs inevitably get cut and the opponent is rarely disarmed or even put off balance enough for a safe followup.

Originally posted by blooming lotus

What art are you studying?? Alot of styles have knife defences and ninjutsu and even tkd to lesser extent is awesome for it.


Right now I don't have an instructor within my travel range who I could learn from. My current study sources are what I can find online and have shipped to me. I've been practicing mostly solo and trying scenarious out with my wife and a couple of my nephews who I'm physically training (for football and wrestling).

My previous experiences I'm drawing from are from varied instructors, TKD, shaolinish kungfu... All my previous instruction involved techniques against thrusting and stabbing. I don't have a difficult time with stabbing and thrusting - it's all in the timing in those cases... it's the defense against slashing and against an experienced knife fighter who DOESN'T commit to stabs and slashes that I have ZERO exposure to.

OK, so far here's where I'm at with the knife defense-


Keep focused on the weapon and it's attack zone
Attempt to draw the attacker into a position where I can flank the weapons attack zone
Keep focused on the weapon and it's attack zone
When flanking the weapons attack zone, attempt control of the weapon while occupying the opponents attention with repeated, quick strikes to vulnerable and distracting areas (eyes, throat
Keep focused on the weapon and it's attack zone
When any amount of control over weapon is gained, attempt to break opponents structure and attempt disarming
Keep focused on the weapon and it's attack zone


Anyways, we've been kinda focused on the knife defense this weekend when we kept getting cut (virtually of course, using rubber knifes) when attempting to drill through scenarios.

Oh and I should re-iterate, this is against a worst case scenario, we're really into avoiding the fight to begin with, and handling possible armed conflict BEFORE weapons are drawn.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

FngSaiYuk / BL,

The problem actually is that it's very hard to detect someone is using a knife. A good knife fighter conceals his weapon and the first draw is the slash. You might not have the luxuary to get out of range and decide.

So basically, your unarmed techniques should cover your vital points irrespective of whether they have a knife or not. And yes you'll get cut, but that's the good bit, the bad outcome is dying.

Knives being a contact weapon can slash dozons of times in a split second. your training can't be useful if it deals with a particular strike at a certain angle etc. Because it is a probabilistic space that you need to cover.

If you have the luxuary of range, try to find a weapon that has a longer range than a knife, or even things you can throw. Otherwise, focus on the shoulder movements as you would do with unarmed combat and try to get your opponent to over commit.

[rogue]

* Keep focused on the weapon and it's attack zone
* Attempt to draw the attacker into a position where I can flank the weapons attack zone
* Keep focused on the weapon and it's attack zone
* When flanking the weapons attack zone, attempt control of the weapon while occupying the opponents attention with repeated, quick strikes to vulnerable and distracting areas (eyes, throat
* Keep focused on the weapon and it's attack zone
* When any amount of control over weapon is gained, attempt to break opponents structure and attempt disarming
* Keep focused on the weapon and it's attack zone

You're trying to duel against a knife.

"while occupying the opponents attention with repeated, quick strikes to vulnerable and distracting areas (eyes, throat".

Bad, everytime you try that you're within his strike zone. A good knife fighter can also use his free arm to counter that stuff and then gut you with the knife at the same time. The most succesful work I've seen against a knife was when the unarmed guy was more agressive against the knife user. I think the common version is "pat, control, beat the living *&^% out of the knifer, then seek first aid help before you bleed out".

[FngSaiYuk]

rogue, I agree, which is why the 'occupying opponents attention' is while flanking the weapons attack zone... basically if the knife is in the attackers right hand and held point out, then get to the wielders right side, gripping the knife hand to control the knife and prevent the opponent from shifting the knife's position... hopefully that illustrates the idea.

Now a good point brought up is that of protecting the vitals. I've kind of assumed this all along, sacrificing the 'outside' regions of the arms and then shins in lieu of permitting a slash to get near the torso or the head.

I'm curious... has anyone here have any first hand experience dealing with a knife wielding opponent? Not drills or sparring, mind you, but in a scenario where the opponent was actively trying to disable or kill.

[joedoe]

I have always been told that unless you have a far superior position, you do not want to grab the knife hand. Once you grab the knife hand, their automatic reaction will be to jerk back, which will result in you getting cut across the hand and possibly incapacitating one of your defensive weapons.

[FngSaiYuk]

The grabbing of the knife hand would be from a flanked position... basically from BEHIND the knife.

Yes don't ever attempt to grab a knife head on.

My normal reaction if *I* had the knife (mind you in training drills) and my opponent reached towards me, is to slash at the closest limb.

Anyways, I'm gonna have to see what happens the next time I get the guys over to play w/the rubber knives.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by joedoe
... you do not want to grab the knife hand. Once you grab the knife hand, their automatic reaction will be to jerk back, which will result in you getting cut across the hand and possibly incapacitating one of your defensive weapons. That's why you grab it with a two on one.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
That's why you grab it with a two on one.

As in grab it with both hands? I guess that makes more sense, because you want to control the weapon. Have you got anything to add on how to deal with the situation given?

[Knifefighter]

Slashes are less lethal than stabs. The majority of knife fatalies come from stabs/thrusts. Many slash type cuts are mitigated somewhat when they move across clothing, which tends to bind the blade up.

To defend the slash, you've got to get it either after it is passing by or catch it at the end/begining of its arc.

I have interviewed a number of people who have survived knife attacks and/or disarmed their opponents. Several who got the knife away did so by grabbing the knife blade itself.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Slashes are less lethal than stabs. The majority of knife fatalies come from stabs/thrusts. Many slash type cuts are mitigated somewhat when they move across clothing, which tends to bind the blade up.

To defend the slash, you've got to get it either after it is passing by or catch it at the end/begining of its arc.

I have interviewed a number of people who have survived knife attacks and/or disarmed their opponents. Several who got the knife away did so by grabbing the knife blade itself.

Fascinating. Defending either at the start or end of the arc makes a lot of sense. Actually grabbing the blade itself seems counterintuitive, but I guess in a desperate situation you just have to do it.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. :)

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
FngSaiYuk / BL,

The problem actually is that it's very hard to detect someone is using a knife. A good knife fighter conceals his weapon and the first draw is the slash. You might not have the luxuary to get out of range and decide.

So basically, your unarmed techniques should cover your vital points irrespective of whether they have a knife or not. And yes you'll get cut, but that's the good bit, the bad outcome is dying.

Knives being a contact weapon can slash dozons of times in a split second. your training can't be useful if it deals with a particular strike at a certain angle etc. Because it is a probabilistic space that you need to cover.

If you have the luxuary of range, try to find a weapon that has a longer range than a knife, or even things you can throw. Otherwise, focus on the shoulder movements as you would do with unarmed combat and try to get your opponent to over commit.

great comment. and you're right, you never know what your opponent is packing. I think that's why it's important to stay vigilant of his / her hands and try to remain aware of how they are moving.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by FngSaiYuk
rogue, I agree, which is why the 'occupying opponents attention' is while flanking the weapons attack zone... basically if the knife is in the attackers right hand and held point out, then get to the wielders right side, gripping the knife hand to control the knife and prevent the opponent from shifting the knife's position... hopefully that illustrates the idea.

Now a good point brought up is that of protecting the vitals. I've kind of assumed this all along, sacrificing the 'outside' regions of the arms and then shins in lieu of permitting a slash to get near the torso or the head.

I'm curious... has anyone here have any first hand experience dealing with a knife wielding opponent? Not drills or sparring, mind you, but in a scenario where the opponent was actively trying to disable or kill.

yah, i've had knives / blades from 4 attackers in everyone of my major organs at once whilst looking down 2 barrels either side. I think at this time as long as they perceived me not to be in any way shape or form intending to react, they were happy to let me live. I think at this stage you can pretty much resign yourself to submission ( even if they strip you naked and want you on your kness) , humiliated is better than dead.

I also had some psycho run in while I was visiting at my parents home weilding a long screwdriver / knife / car tool looking thing looking for my lil bro who was upstairs and so dealt with it myself. Granted he wasn't trained in ma, but a few well planted feet were ample. I think you just need to understand how they're operating.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

BL,

When dealing with multiple opponents best to deal with them one at a time. I mean talking can be a strategy to work one off against the other. As in the street fighting post, keep moving so that they'll be running into one another - allowing you having to deal with one at a time. Know where your escape routes are and work yourself towards it.

But if say, a whole gang just comes out from no where and surrounds you, that's bad especially when guns are involved as well. I probably would act crazy and say that I've got ebola or something.

The way you dealt with that maniac shows you're one hell of a fighter eventhough I know you are modest saying your non Mak skill is Yi Ban Ban.

[blooming lotus]

thx, but didn't save me that me that time........

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

blooming lotus,

KF can't deal with everything. Sometimes survival is the best of a bad option. If in a fight everthing is just a blurr.

[blooming lotus]

You're right and as I've said before, self defence is the means and not the goal of my training. You can minimum your odds of "loosing" or becomming injured, but life is a volitile thing and there will always be a situation you didn't train for !

I have decided to leave the forum permanently so
cheers EGO and good luck with your recovery programme ;) :)

BL

[Serpent]

Just go already. Why do you have to post on every thread that you're leaving. No one cares.

[CaptinPickAxe]

honestly...

BL musta spent too much time at Tyrone's party
<--------

[SPJ]

Many of my posts are inspired by BL.

My posting on Chan was started with BL posts with Hendrik.

I think I have to focus on MA again.

Dharma talk was restarted. Her input was missed.

Take a break.

You have many friends in the forum.

:D

[Meat Shake]

Back on track...

"Keep focused on the weapon and it's attack zone"


Weve been doing quite a bit of knife work lately... We never watch the blade directly, rather watching it via peripheral vision. Almost all of the disarms we have been working are 1 vs. 2 arms, and almost all impliment a wrist lock to force the knife from the attackers hand.
Theres a lot more, but Im hella tired right now...

[Oso]

ok, now that knifefighter is looking i'll give this a shot.

versus 'backhand' slash with the knife in their right hand with the point away, otherwise it's not really a slash (???)

assumption: I have anticipated the attack enough to allow me to move inside the arc of the blade.

my left hand comes over the top of his arm to grab as near the wrist as I am able while my left hand is doing the same under the arm. my hands are big enough and my grip strong enough that I feel I can hinder the movement of the hand adequately enough at the wrist w/o wrapping up the fingers and thereby putting my hands closer to the blade.

as I do this I keep pressure into his body with mine and trap the arm against my body w/ my elbows. after my grip is secured I keep my elbows posted on my stomach. this, i think, means that he has to fight against the rigidness of my forearm bones versus me trying to keep his arm from moving around with just my muscles.

while doing this I keep my feet moving towards him, he will be trying to pull away and if I can keep close to him then he has to work harder to do so.

this is all hopefully momentary as my goal is to break or damage the elbow enough while I have the arm trapped for the knife to be released and for me to then be able to punish him for being so cheeky:p

so basically:

get inside the arc
trap the knife hand w/ two on one
trap the knife arm w/ upper arm
keep elbows posted on body
keep the feet moving to stay in contact with him.

???

[FngSaiYuk]

If I read your description correctly, wouldn't the knife wielder be able to rotate the blade and stab it into your torso, since you've locked the wielding arm?

[Oso]

no

trap the knife hand w/ two on one
trap the knife arm w/ upper arm


so theoretically, i've got his hand/wrist in mine and his arm pinned between my body and my arm.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by SPJ
Many of my posts are inspired by BL.

My posting on Chan was started with BL posts with Hendrik.

I think I have to focus on MA again.

Dharma talk was restarted. Her input was missed.

Take a break.

You have many friends in the forum.

:D
No, she has one friend on the forum, which is you, apparently.

Anyway, it's academic - she won't leave.

Let's get back to the knife stuff, huh.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by Oso
no


trap the knife hand w/ two on one
trap the knife arm w/ upper arm


so theoretically, i've got his hand/wrist in mine and his arm pinned between my body and my arm.

Ok, I must be having a difficult time understanding.

Can you describe the 2 on 1 a bit more clearly?
Are you facing the opponent or is your back or side against the opponent?
How do you step inside the slash?

Also, I'm thinking someone who isn't going to make wild swings with the knife, so they'll likely be rather compact.

[Ming Yue]

In Oso's scenario, as you face the opponent, he swings the knife backhand, point out so it moves in an arc from your right to your left.

right hand grabs wrist before the arc is completed, rising left hand strikes/grabs elbow and snakes over for the pin. (you're flanking at his right shoulder, facing him).

similar tech for a forehand swing, I believe: grab inside arc with left hand, step inside and snake right arm around for bar/break.

[Oso]

FSY, he's using his right hand and I step outside of it prior to the wrap.

it's got to be dynamic, I'm not going to stand there and wrestle with him, enter, wrap and control the arm and hand/wrist and with footwork and waist torque, damage the elbow enough to prevent further use of it.

in this specific scenario, i've got my hands tight on his wrist with my thumbs on the back of his hand...hopefully...in any event I'm gonig to attempt to keep the wrist/hand from moving as much as possible.

i think supposed 'knife defense' techniques might be valid against someone who is not a trained fighter or a knifefighter. anyone who has had any training is going to cut the **** out of you.

i think supposed knife defense IS to mitigate the damage and hopefully not get you killed immediately. i think it's unrealistic to assume you won't get cut, or even to assume you won't get cut bad.

the best knife defense is probably 30' and solid knowledge of gun use.

but, of course, being ******* martial artists like we are...we'll continue play with knife defenses.

[FngSaiYuk]

Excellent points.

I just like to be somewhat mentally and physically prepared for possibilities. Not to mention we were having some fun playing with the rubber knives, and I was getting quite good at the timing of stabs and thrusts w/these particular guys. I have no idea how things would work out in a REAL fight, but in practice I got quite good against the stabs and thrusts.

It's those horizontal slashes that I'm having the roughest time with. They slice by really quickly... I think what I'll have to try out the next time is some sort of sacrifice of blood in order to survive the attack.

Sooo... other than the less meaty parts of the limbs, what other areas of the body are 'sacrificeable' in order to survive the attack, and what techniques would make best use of the situation?

[richard sloan]

Originally posted by SPJ
Get a bat or a short staff or a frying pan.

Or take your coat or shirt off and make a rope by twisting it and slap or whip the opponent's hand or use a thick belt with a buckle.

You need something to create a safe distance from the wielding knife.

A shoe or whatever.



If you were serious about those suggestions, by the time any of that gets done I'd bet on you getting stuck...

Someone mentioned something that I totally agree with- if you engage with someone armed with a knife, you should expect to get cut up, and I also think you've also made some serious avoidance errors. Personally, it's not easy to corner someone who *really* wants to get away from you. But I realize this is a totally fabricated worst case scenario with guitar solos and hot babe defense.

Something someone else mentioned which I also agree with is to use both your hands to go for the knife hand of the attacker, if that is what you decide to do.

If you're really worried about having to fight off a knifer, you should carry.

A gang member I used to know once told me it was like blackjack. In a lot of situations when you have to decide when to hit, you have to assume the dealer has the higher hand. So it is on the street.

I think a better question to ask is what can you do to have avoided getting in the corner.

If you start to think about it, there is a definite prejudice against guns amongst MAs, which I think speaks more to ego than any kind of understanding of how things on the street can work. It would be like thinking iron weapons should never be used in place of bronze.

One reason people train in MAs is to give themselves an edge against opponents...same reason why people carry weapons. You should see the assortment of weaponry found in the bushes outside the NYMFC courtrooms when they put the metal detectors in, lol... So why not just give yourself the best edge, as you have to assume that anyone attacking you (and if they are coming at you with a knife they are looking to kill you) is armed at best in a similar fashion as you, at worst, they way outmatch you.

I've never seen a pulled knife or machette end a fight, but I've seen the mere flash of a grip send people running away...

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

BL

"You're right and as I've said before, self defence is the means and not the goal of my training. You can minimum your odds of "loosing" or becomming injured, but life is a volitile thing and there will always be a situation you didn't train for !"

Thats right. To have the best odds of surviving (for a given level of skill etc), we have to be at peace and not be distracted by the waht ifs. If we do, we do to the best of our ability when called upon to.

"I have decided to leave the forum permanently so
cheers EGO and good luck with your recovery programme"

You have been a great inspiration to me and as such your departure will be greatly missed. Hope you find new trolls to troll in your new endeavors. I will do my best to follow through my recovery program with your inspiration as wind behind my sails. So it is good bye dear friend from the KFM forum.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Serpent
No, she has one friend on the forum, which is you, apparently.

Anyway, it's academic - she won't leave.

Let's get back to the knife stuff, huh.

hey that's just not true...if you count ego and his alters that'd have to be 5 minimum!!!!!!!!!




:cool: :D

I'm good with 5 :) :) :p

[Serpent]

Even Ego doesn't really like you. He's playing you for a chump but you're too dense to realise.

Now, shut up and let these guys talk about knife stuff.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Serpent,

You got trouble speaking for yourself, let alone speaking for me.
Let alone thinking for BL.

Crawl back to your House of Sssssslitherine.

[blooming lotus]

now now boys.

Play nicely ha :) :rolleyes: