View Full Version : Is Falun a path?
One day there was a monk wondering how to get across the river?
The frog said you can swim across.
The bird said you can fly over.
An engineer said look for a bridge.
The fisherman said look for a boat.
A sports fan said use a hanging glider and jump from the cliff nearby.
There are many paths or Chans to reach the other shore in life.
Is Falun (the method of wheel) a path?
The frog never knows how to fly said nonsense you just swim.
The bird never knows how to swim said no no you just fly.
There is a villager A practicing Shaolin. There is no other Wushu in the village A.
There is a villager B practicing Tai Ji. There is no other Wushu in the village B.
One day, they met in a cross road. A bandit popped up and tried to rob both of them. They started to fight. The bandit was subdued by Tai Ji Qin Na after heavily punched and kicked by Shaolin fists.
The bandit asked I only imitated some random boxing secretly in village C. Can one of you be my teacher? I will be a good person from now on.
They all went to Beijing. They saw that there are Ba Gua, Tong Bei, on an on.
The question is that if my way or path of revelation the only way?
:D
Shaolinlueb
08-12-2004, 05:48 PM
so did the shaolin guy, the taiji guy and the bandit live happily ever after?
MasterKiller
08-12-2004, 05:53 PM
...and where was Little Red Riding Hood again? I'm confused. :mad:
Shaolinlueb
08-12-2004, 06:10 PM
and did the bird eat the poor frog?
rubthebuddha
08-12-2004, 06:53 PM
it's the taiji guy's week to do dishes, and that ****ing pot has been sitting in the sink all week. :mad:
Radhnoti
08-12-2004, 08:18 PM
...soon after hooking up, villager A (shaolin) got mad at villager B (tai ji) for implying that his art was "unrefined and lacking proper qi development". Villager A, in turn, pointed out how long it takes to surpass the level of "little sissy pansy boy" with villager B's art and that, frankly, villager B was unjustifiably pompous to a guy that could beat him senseless.
Meanwhile, the bandit was walking away. Having spent approximately an hour in the company of both martial artists he felt he'd learned all he needed from both...as he had with the "boxer" in his village. He started the first "reality based martial art", sending his students out to rob other travellers and return with information about the styles that beat them.
blooming lotus
08-12-2004, 08:32 PM
path to something no doubt, but if your map is off, doesn't really matter about the destination , because you'll be lucky to arrive at the right place, ........then you wanna know why your travel brochure showed pics you can't see.
David Jamieson
08-12-2004, 08:33 PM
get born, live your experiences, die.
these three fundamental truths in everyone's lives are the true path. What ever proxy you wanna take to give you a sense of it is inconsequential.
No matter what you say or do, there will be someone ready and waiting to say that it is wrong. from 1 hour old to 100+ years old, there is no escaping that.
blooming lotus
08-12-2004, 08:35 PM
cheers. I'll take summa that myself ;)
TaiChiBob
08-12-2004, 10:14 PM
Greetings..
Some good thoughts, here.. after all it's just a path, the question is how well do we travel it.. with proper intent, even Falun Gong may yield benefits.. but, well worn paths to known destinations are predictable.. there may adventure "off the path", or just misfortune.. i enjoy the adventure but leave a trail of pebbles in case i need to return to the path (something was eating the bread-crumbs, Li Hongzi i suspect)..
Be well...
KC Elbows
08-13-2004, 12:55 AM
Since all paths are good, my initial plan of simply pointing and laughing has brought me well past samsarra. I am more at one with everything than anyone or anything else.
KC Elbows
08-13-2004, 01:01 AM
You may heretofore refer to me as the Pointing and Laughing Buddha, though I'd prefer you left me alone to my infinite boundlessness.
KC Elbows
08-13-2004, 01:04 AM
That is all the irony I have for you mortals. I will now remove the worms from Allanis Morissette's bottles of tequila and see what the crap she calls that. Amhitaba, weirdos.
Shaolinlueb
08-13-2004, 03:29 AM
Originally posted by KC Elbows
Since all paths are good, my initial plan of simply pointing and laughing has brought me well past samsarra. I am more at one with everything than anyone or anything else.
so getting strung out on crack, burning h0es with pipes from the orgies and dieing young is a good life? :D im in then. lol jk
Actually this is a Chan story. It carries a lot of meanings.
A Christian heard the story and said;
Yes. very much so. I may relate to that perfectly.
God created people, animals and everything in the universe with a purpose.
Life is a gift. God gives the bird the ability and freedom to fly. God gives the frog the skill to swim and float. They do not have a choice to be something they are not. God gives people the gift of wisdom, the power of making choices and more than one way to reach goals in life. These are God-like.
People build a bridge. People build and sail a boat. People build something to fly. People has the gift to think and create. Just like God created the birds that fly, the frog that swims, etc.
However, we are created to be like God. But we are not God.
The story carries more and a lot more meanings.
:D
Mr Punch
08-13-2004, 07:52 AM
Points and LsOL at KC's posts. :D
Originally posted by SPJ
There are many paths or Chans to reach the other shore in life.
I like this shore thanks. The grass feels and smells good here, tho it sure looks better over there. I know that rolling around in it will give me cancer anyway tho, so that's why I wait till summer, go to the bank of the river with my girlfriend and roll around in the hay!
The Christian continued to say:
Inspired by the wing of the bird, people created something like a wing to fly.
Inspired by hot air (expanded in space, lighter than the cool air), people created hot air balloon, airship to fly.
Inspired by sufferings and ideas that souls and spirits are universal among all living things, Buddha created--
Inspired by 5 animals, louhan, drunkar, monks created Shaolin fists.
Inspired by Daoism, water and a ball, Chen Wang Ting created Tai Ji quan.
Inspired by Praying Mantis, Wang Lang created Tang Lang.
Inspired by what we see, and what we know, people created/derived/infered Chan.
Inspired by ????, Li created Falun.
Inspired by lightening, Franklin discovered electricity.
Inspired by theory, people discover science, laws of gravity, chemistry, atomic physics---nature. People discover Dao.
Have people discovered the life, the truth and the way, ie. God, yet???
Jesus said I am the life, the truth, and the way (Dao).
Peace from a Chan of a Christian, inspired by a Christian belief, Za Zen, TCMA practices and---.
What is your Chan from the story?
Where is your peace?
:cool:
WanderingMonk
08-13-2004, 04:27 PM
One of our main tasks as human beings is to seek and to discover what is real and true. We must use intelligence as our main tool and sound reason as the verifier. That is all we have at this point. However, as we go about deepening our understanding, we still carry one problem with us: this mind that reasons so intelligently is still basically confused. Therefore, every "insight" is saturated by confusion. I am sorry to say it so bluntly, but human understanding is confused. It is not unmistaken wisdom, and it is not authentic until complete enlightenment. Can we admit that we are not yet enlightened?
The awakened state of a Buddha is one of perceiving clearly, distinctly, and completely the nature of things and all that exists. It is a wisdom that knows things as they are without confusion, without distortion. This is why we ordinary human beings cannot avoid seeking support in the words and teachings of a buddha.
These days we find a variety of religions, belief systems, and schools of thought; I am not sure why this is, but I believe that it is an expression of people's individual karma and past inclinations. Most spiritual people regard the Buddha as a wise teacher and proponent of peace. Some place the Buddha on the same level as the founder of their own religion, some lower. It is natural to feel that "my philosophy, my religion, is the truest. The words our founder spoke are the most sublime, the clearest picture of reality." It is human nature to believe that what we have is the best. Often, because of such belief, people tend to regard everyone else's view or spiritual path as dead wrong and leading them astray. So, as we find ourselves in this diverse global society there is no point, when addressing the public, to begin by saying, "Our Buddha, and only our Buddha, is right and true!"
To be honest, the self-supporting trait of human nature is nothing new; it has always been like this. That is why the tradition of Buddhist studies has always placed emphasis on testing the validity of the Buddha's words and the statements of later masters by means of intelligent reasoning. The intellect uses logic to create a reliable support.
In recent centuries, there has been an ascendancy in philosophical views that emphasize material reality; these include modern science. Inventiveness, in terms of products and technologies, is glorified. Similarly, we see that new ways of thinking that distance themselves from the past have become popular and are applauded. Contemporary society seems to be fascinated with novelty. Anyone who can come up with something new that has never been seen before--a new perspective, a new way of thinking--automatically becomes the founding father of a new "religion." Isn't it true that school children are taught that Albert Einstein was a fabulous genius, the founder of a new way?
Today we see a heightened interest in the Buddha's teachings throughout the world; there is a lot of contact between people of various backgrounds and the traditional teachings of the Buddha. It is my impression that Westerners who are new to Buddhism often feel more comfortable with a teacher who is well versed in psychology or science--even one who has only a cursory understanding of what the Buddha taught-than with a well-educated Buddhist master. This is understandable considering their upbringing.
Someone who teaches Buddhism while downplaying the Buddha and what he taught is received with open arms and tends to become quite popular, respected and regarded as an authority. Also, for instances, someone who expediently says, "Bowing down is useless" receives immediate applause.. "There is no need to do ngondro, the preliminary practices. It's just a Tibetan cultural artifact"--louder applause. It is human nature to prefer ease and dislike hardship, and catering to this attitude will always be popular. Those who want to adapt their teaching to people's weaknesses and brand it "Buddhism" will likely become popular leaders of a new movement. New followers will exclaim, "Your style is so free and open--I like it."
Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche (excerpted from the Introduction to the book DZOGCHEN PRIMER, compiled and edited by Marcia Binder Schmidt, a collection of essays on the principles of Tibetan Buddhism).
KC Elbows
08-13-2004, 05:47 PM
I think, in response to the whole "each path was made to achieve enlightenment" approach that, in fact, some paths are made for the founders own self gain. This is not levelled at falun, this is just a comment.
I think that is the problem with the common misunderstanding of "all paths lead to..." dictum. People think that means that all paths lead there because of their intent, when, in fact, many paths lead their by the desperation with which one soon wishes to leave that path because of its nature, because it is a trap, etc.
Paths which are frought with foolish peril or which exist only to benefit the greedy may teach those who walk on those paths what about them makes them vulnerable to such traps, but from there, you are still a long way from enlightenment, and other paths must carry you there.
Like martial arts, some paths are set there to make a J-O-B for someone who has insufficient qualifications to hold a J-O-B, and that person can suddenly get business cards titled "Founder".
What this thread is clearly about is whether shaolin do is true shaolin.:D
Originally posted by SPJ
Where is your peace?
I am a Christian. I love God with a passion unique to my experience. However, I cannot honestly say I find my peace in thinking on or reading of His love, though I wish I could. I find my peace, my only peace in my practice. In my action, in my experiencing of life, I no longer see myself, see a Me and a They. There no longer is an "I." There is only peace. And from this there is only God.
TaiChiBob
08-13-2004, 06:47 PM
Greetings..
VASH: A decent and open reply.. good words for troubled times..
Be well..
blooming lotus
08-14-2004, 03:11 AM
Originally posted by SPJ
What is your Chan from the story?
Where is your peace?
:cool:
my ch'an :
different people are inspired to different means pending belief and prior exposure....
a path of truth and "rightness" is true only when you ride in that belief..................
Sorry. Actually the first post may go very and very deep.
It may seem to be simple. It is not.
If you are good at swimming and the river is not too wide or the water is not too cold, you may try to swim across it.
If not, you take advice and look for a boat or a bridge.
Or ask more people for more advise.
If you do not have a solution easily at hand, you may decide not to cross or bypass it. Or the river is not meant to be crossed etc.
Any decision you make is a path.
All these paths will be considered fully by the people involved. Depends on the people. Frog's choice is not possible for the bird. The bird's choice is not possible for the frog. The bird does not swim. The frog does not fly. So everybody has his or her own path.
Some symbolisms here.
The river crossing may represent any questions or goals in life.
The paths may all reach the same destination (religious persuits, wealth, fitness, or whatever).
However, each path requires different settings.
River crossing may be common fighting problems encountered. The paths may be Shaolin, Tai Ji, Praying Mantis, Ba Gua etc.
Young dudes craze for Shaolin. Middle aged, over-educated, over-worked dudes satisfy with Tai Ji.
The story also hints that maybe all religions lead people to the same. People wants to cross the river. People wants to believe in something that is greater than themself and is in control of all the random/chaotic events in an orderly fashion, we call life. We want something we are familar with and comfortable with. That would be something predictable or reliable from science to--
To get out of that sticky part, I posted a Christian thought to cover.
All religions are the same, because people want the same. But it is a personal decision you have to make in as much as everything else.
Chan gives people directions. You make the journey. It is your life. It is your Chan.
Do not want to offend any faiths.
:D
KC Elbows
08-14-2004, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by SPJ
All these paths will be considered fully by the people involved.
I'm with you on everything except this one statement, which is not necessarily true. Do you feel this was true of those in Jonestown? I don't. I'm not judging any belief system, but to assume that all belief systems are thoroughly thought through by their followers solely because they're belief systems is incorrect.
Are you saying that Hailbop WAS waiting for all those people, and they were right to castrate themselves and throw on Nikes? I'm pretty sure you're not saying that, which means that belief systems clearly aren't always thought through by anyone following them, buyer beware.
Aside from that, I see your point, but that one statement is not only wrong, but dangerously so, in my opinion.
Originally posted by SPJ
Do not want to offend any faiths.
:D
Well, it's about **** time someone did. If someone has a religious belief, an actual, functioning faith, then that person sure as hell had better be prepared to question not only every aspect of it, but of the self, and the relation between the two.
Offence is a fearful reaction.
Execellent points.
I am not endorsing all "beliefs" systems that maynot be helpful and may even be detrimental to the followers.
Absolutely, If you ask a bird to swim or a frog to fly?
The bird will not consider swim is an option, vice versa.
People do not swim will not consider swim is an option.
So the premises are that you know yourself first. You have to know who or what you are and your limits before undertaking any path in life. Can you jump off the cliff with a glider without knowing how? What a good way to plunge to your end!
If the frog or bird does not have a blind faith that it can fly or swim? Why would people have a blind faith in something they are not if they know who they are in the first place?
:cool:
Where to find peace?
Vash has good points.
Yes, peace is where you find yourself and your beliefs/faiths.
(again not refering the suicidal or self terminating ones)
Your faiths or central belief will guide you thru ups and downs in the sea of life.
You find your life has a greater purpose. You are instrumental to a greater good. You are part of a greater truth. You are not alone.
If the new religions only serve the betterness for the founder at the expense of his followers, one should ask all so many questions?
Jesus died for me. Nailed to a cross and bled to the end.
Buddha lived an acetic life. He was all skin and bone. He meditated under a tree. He relinquished his throne and all the worldy things.
What does the founder do and not just say?
on and on.
:confused:
People spin. Or people see what they want to see and think what they want to think.
Let us do a Chan spin.
Mat;
Good point. Basic ways of asking a question; why, how, who, where, when, what--
Why believe in Falun? Is Falun greener?
While we have Jesus for 2004 and Buddha 2500 years.
Mk;
Good advice.
The little red is asking directions to Grandma's house in the woods. The Shaolin monk said there is a big wolf. Let me teach you Luohan Quan; Wu Bu Quan. mmmm never mind. Here! take my Yin Yang dagger. When you see a big wolf, be calm. Wait till it jumps at you, then use your YYD hiding under the cape and stab into its heart. Remember move only when it moves and not before.
Little red is thinking about the direction. Monk is thinking about the wolf.
So be careful little red (you). Falun may be the wolf and not grandma or Buddha.
The main point is where is your defense against a wolf masked as a new religion.
etc etc.
Sorry I spinned both of your statements into warning against you know what.
Chan: Is the mountain really the mountain?
:D
KC Elbows
08-14-2004, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by SPJ
The main point is where is your defense against a wolf masked as a new religion.
I know this isn't the central point, but think you addressed this earlier.
Look at the founder, do they work for the benefit of others and clearly so, and not benefit unduly off of their religion in a fiscal way?
The examples of Buddha and Christ you made were good ones, hard to argue that Christ was out for his own personal gain, Buddha either, they didn't demand that their followers make the same sacrifices, they placed the sacrifices they made in a context of "this is what I choose, your choices will be yours", unlike a Jim Jones, who benefitted monetarily from his followers, and when events began that would probably have broken up his cult and caused many to move on and find more positive paths, he used his control to urge those followers to end it all, because he couldn't stand the idea of losing that control.
Same with Heaven's Gate, et al.
The fakers always bank on conveying their mystical nature, that they are chosen of God, and their charisma/"miraculous powers"(ordinary acts given undue value) are their proof to their followers. On the flip side, the Christ's and Buddhas have a lot more stories about them explaining how to be better people than outright miracles, i.e. cults almost never really have a thought out path at all, that's why it is so necessary to have this charismatic leader, there is nothing else to hold it all together. They explain a lot how the leader is the chosen one, but the leader never espouses anything like a coherent life path.
Anyway, I know this is a bit off the path of the original post, I'm a threadjacker.:D
David Jamieson
08-14-2004, 05:58 PM
Ha Ha Vash is a secular humanist! :p
anyway...
Falun has simply co-opted practices from other lines and used them as part of the vehicle to push Li's views and allow him to build a power base.
The man is painting oranges and calling them pomegranite essentially.
So, while falun gong as a practice is probably not harmful, it is the intellectual pursuits and the control structure of the organization that is causing problems.
people do not accept medical assisstance and die, by the freaking hundreds people, if not thousands. People believe there is a wheel inside them as part of their bonafide anatomical structure, Li encourages this.
He also ascribes to teh fantastical and encourages this in his followers.
Li can do what he wants, but his "followers" are really doing something quite in the realm of boneheadedness in my opinion. Why would people follopw such a transparent fruitcake as this guy?
Oh well, the same can be said of a lot of groups I guess.
I'll stick to not following anyone in the meantime.
cheers
KC Elbows
08-14-2004, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Kung Lek
Li can do what he wants, but his "followers" are really doing something quite in the realm of boneheadedness in my opinion. Why would people follopw such a transparent fruitcake as this guy?
Really, most Catholics haven't the slightest idea the fundamental principles of catholicism(not meant as a slam to catholics, my family is catholic and good people). I think when you're talking about belief in things that can't be proven, reincarnation, resurrection, miracles, the followers tend to be either well versed in their systems and aware of the real world consequences of their belief, which is the minority...
...or you get people who fly under a banner because they feel the surface details of that banner reflect them and they are playing it safe, who, if they choose another banner, may not choose it with any more awareness than the "safe" banner they leave behind, and thus, are largely unaware of the consequences of their belief and naive to the dangers should they venture out on their own. Which is another minority, and not at all a smaller minority than the first, imo.
Cults depend entirely on the latter, and loathe the former. And their leaders tend toward pathetic, but only appear in carefully controlled venues to hide this.
Are you serious that they think there's a literal wheel inside people?
On people are generally confused.
We are confused by what we know.
What we do not know may hurt us but does not confuse us.
We are confused when we try to use what we know to determine what we do not know and we cannot.
In the process, we may deny ourself of any further truth.
So we always have to admit what we do not know and what we do know.
And the door or other path may be revealed.
The world does not confuse us. We are confused by not having an OPEN mind.
The frog may say the river is too wide, the water maybe too rushing. Maybe swim is not a good idea. The bird may have a point.
The bird may say ya. If I do not have enough strength, and there is no landing ground in between, may be not a good idea to fly. Oops, you people do not fly. Or where is your wing? I certainly would check some landing ground before I fly over.
:confused:
On adventure and beaten paths.
The beaten paths are from many people's adventures before us.
TCMA are beaten paths from over hundreds or thousands of years of combat experiences, practices, experiments/adventures, proved, tried and refined by many great minds and diligent practitioners.
If you do not respect many and all so many other people's adventures, and you demand others to respect your adventure???
MMA rule over TCMA's???
Let us see, the world is mapped out and we have satellites in the orbit. A little young fellow with a dingy boat said I am going to set sail and discover the world.
Let us see, I mix some grappling, some throws, some punches and kicks. Voila! I am a grandmaster and founder of the one and only revolutionary new MA.-----
Wow!!!
:p
On the other hand;
The adventure may lead to a new path.
The adventure may add or renovate the old beaten path.
The adventure may prove the beaten path is still the path.
Respect others and others will respect you.
:D
unkokusai
08-15-2004, 06:51 PM
Was there a big sale on pot in CA this weekend, or what?:confused:
Nah.
These are random thoughts grouped into a perspective.
In response to WM and TCB posts.
Back in college in the 80', I bored the Buddhist monks and made Daoist Daoshi's yawning, too.
There were Buddhist and Daoist study clubs. Mates ran away from me, if they saw me coming.
Yah, they shunned me like a hazard or plaque.
The monks had no place to run but to put up with me till I shut up.
:D
unkokusai
08-15-2004, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by SPJ
Back in college in the 80', I bored the Buddhist monks and made Daoist Daoshi's yawning, too.
There were Buddhist and Daoist study clubs. Mates ran away from me, if they saw me coming.
Yah, they shunned me like a hazard or plaque.
The monks had no place to run but to put up with me till I shut up.
:D
I'm guessing you didn't get laid a whole lot. :(
It does get very cold on the top of the mountain.
But you have a spectacular view of everything below you.
:cool:
There is a boy A. He is lucky. He has a lot of toys. But he put them away in a closet, where they are safe and clean.
The boy B has only one toy passed down by his brother. It is worn. But boy B has a lot of fun and enjoyable time playing with the toy.
Chan:
Use your brain or mind to think and have fun.
Or place your brain and mind in the safeguard of doctrines/teachings.
You may have a highest IQ. But if you do not use it to think?
You may have a low IQ. But if you do think a lot with it?
:cool:
During Culture Revolution, every college and religion are destroyed. To purge the 4 old's. Overthrow the Confucious dien.
The professors went to the countryside to learn from the farmers. Colleges closed. The red guards told everybody what is right and what is wrong. The little red book was the only truth or only religion. The kids may only recognise the party and Mao as the surrogate father and purge their birth parents of the old's according to the little red book.
Not only everything linked to old (Great Walls, temples, books, teachers, monks, etc), but also everything west was destroyed.
President Nixon visited to open China and negociated the end of Vietnam conflict. All of a sudden, America is a friend again. The Culture Revolution ended quietly. English started to replace Russian in schools. Coca Cola is acceptable. Limited religion practices under Government control are allowed.
Under Deng, China embarked on capitalization with the door open. If the communist economic system bankrupted China and Russia, we needed another path to make China strong, Deng pondered. Taiwan was enjoying an economic boom with American capitalism in a Chinese society and traditional culture intact.
More economic freedom or more Wu Wei for the people of China.
Where the money or capital comes from? We had to OPEN DOOR/PATH for western, Taiwanese, overseas Chinese to invest. And the rest of the world would join.
The China door/mind was opened around 1978.
A decade later, students demanded more changes and more freedom, while the whole world watched. Unfortunately, PLA tanks rolled. The voices were silenced by the AK-47's.
Another decade went by, China started to privatize government own enterprises. The communist ideaology is gone, Everybody looks at the money as the only truth.
Then came Falun.
The monk asking for a path,
He can be;
President Nixon asking for a path to end Vietnam conflict and open China. China answered.
Deng asking for a path to capitalist market economy, the whole world answered.
Chinese wanted something to believe in; old's destroyed, little red book gone, demands for more freedom crushed, money may not be the God, how about Falun? They pondered.
Before the ban, Falun has many believers in the factory, provencial government employee etc.
Whether Falun is a path or not.
Chinese people are in need of a belief and so is everyone else including you and me.
Sorry I went way too deep on this.
I do not want to bash Falun. I merely wanted to point out that there are other paths.
I also like to point out that people in China are in need of a belief.
That is all.
:D
blooming lotus
08-17-2004, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by SPJ
People wants to cross the river. People wants to believe in something that is greater than themself and is in control of all the random/chaotic events in an orderly fashion, we call life.
:D
I was going to say "I don't know about this ", because I myself have been quite happy to not believe in anything for a while back many yrs ago, but I guess that doesn't neccessarliy mean I didn't want an answer, as I believe why so many challenge my own beliefs and want to get intimate. People want answers. For myself I found logic and as a rational person couldn't deny it nor not live by it.
Ps: Shi Suxi is old, very old and still practices ch'an. Too old to play gongfu , so how do you suppose he still, alongside the rest of the shaolin community, considers what he does, as practicing shaolin buddhism and ch'an???
I have a thought on this myself..............
Yesteryear a ch'an buddhist "procted" and "saved" another, giving them more time to precure their own nirvirna, by defending them physically through fuedal wars and lifestlye.
Today however, it is more accepted that we arm ourselves and each other with information and education. Teach to fish vs provide one.
Because people are no longer dying from such means so often, rather than from those resulting from lack of education and particularly on scales as they were previously - in Ch'an philosophy - woulnd't saving someone today, foresaking your own attatchments and desires for an abundance of other comforts and pleasures ( rest and approval and understanding, privacy of thought and space, tiredness or lack of sleep,payment, appreciation etc) as well as physical pleasures and attatchments , by sharing your knowledge, experience and truths unjudgementally nor liimtedly and especially on your own time and for free, have us covered??..........
do you suppose this is why the shaolin budhhist and ch'an communities still regard him as the great grandmaster of ch'an even today???
Interesting ......no???
A belief in no belief is a belief.
A logic of no logic is a logic.
A religion of no religion is a religion.
If you do not believe in God, then you believe in something else other than God.
If you believe in no God, then you believe you yourself is the God.
So God is the one in control of everything.
Or you are the one in control of everything.
If you are not in control of everything, whoever that is in control of everything, he must be God.
If there is nobody in control of everything, then how everything goes must follow something. --- How do you define that something that everything follows?
So existence of God comes with the existence of you and everything.
:D
unkokusai
08-18-2004, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by blooming lotus
Yesteryear a ch'an buddhist "procted" and "saved" another, giving them more time to precure their own nirvirna, by defending them physically through fuedal wars and lifestlye.
???
:confused: :confused: :confused:
blooming lotus
08-18-2004, 01:29 PM
oh. An integral philosophical view of ch'an buddhism is to acheive then foresake your nirvana in order to bring others closer to theirs. Previously, in gongfu days gone -by, when gongfu was essential to live through bloody wars and such, shaolin monks etc, did this by allowing them another day/ mth / yr/ etc life in which to bring it about themselves and did what they could to live and teach dharma by example as well as pass it on orally when opportunity presented.
Does that help any??
TaiChiBob
08-18-2004, 02:47 PM
Greetings..
Falun is just another in the parade.. the more serious issue (for me) is the deficient reasoning skills of the followers.. that society or humanity has become so dependent on crutches to support its failing perception of self.. Religions intercede on behalf of its followers, they offer an escape, a way out from the self-imposed or socially coerced "guilts".. Religions are contrived schemes that prey on our inherent sense of spiritual awareness, religions are merely social or cultural interpretations of simple spiritual awareness.. with an agenda.. Any group that places itself or its leader between you and your interpretation of "God", Tao, Allah, the Sun, flying machines, money, power, etc.. is just a distraction from the goal and a devaluation of self.. We come into this physical experience with the tools to make it through, why give those tools away to cleverly contrived intermediaries?
Falun is just another in the parade.. do you march to your own drum, or are you charmed by the music of others..
There is a spontaneous and random order to the universe (Tzu-Jan, Li).. it is simply "the way things are (Tao).. you may paint it your favorite color, assign it a personallity, or worship it.. but, it is simply, the "way" things are..
Worship nothing.. yet, maintain a sacred reverence for ALL things.. (personal philosophy)..
Be well..
blooming lotus
08-18-2004, 03:07 PM
I really appreciate your perspective on that! However, I think personally falun is not about asserting any one individual in that intimate space of salvation and / or enlightenment, and I believe is where LIHongZhi erred so terribley in his instruction . I know it's possible to connect directly with universal forces that be through falun gong without having anothers' qi integrated......... by his instruction , it's almost like sex, where at climax you woof another benti or essence into your seat of power or own essence rather than than the universal awareness and feeling the experience of progressive enlightenment through perceptively good and bad awarenesses.
That said, falun gong is reputedly frowned upon in buddhist circles for clashes at high cultivation level of procurement, so I in no means advocate it, but I do sincerely see its' value when done safely.
Thanks for the thought provocation TCB ;)
Ray Pina
08-18-2004, 06:43 PM
Thanks for sharing that. I apreaciated that story.
TaiChiBob
08-18-2004, 08:08 PM
Greetings..
Agreed, EvolutionFist.. Thanks, SPJ.. the story gives us a perspective of current Chinese thought with insights from an open and working mind..
So existence of God comes with the existence of you and everything.
Well.. i think that "God" is a word that carries way too much religious and social baggage.. i think the universe is a single living entity, of which we are part and parcel.. the universe unfolds in a certain spontaneous and random "way".. which somehow emerges as order.. if one needs to hold onto a belief to make sense of this, so be it.. otherwise, simply embrace the adventure as it unfolds and govern yourself to "do no harm".. and act accordingly..
Be well..
PS: as a working "philosophy" i find Taoism to be the most agreeable to my own understandings..
Ray Pina
08-18-2004, 10:34 PM
Same hear. But not the Toaism of robes and doctrine and of trying to follow a "way."
I'm of the Toaism of laughing over spilt milk. "Good" sometimes. "Bad" sometimes .... but never malicious.
blooming lotus
08-19-2004, 05:44 AM
no disprect at all here, but myself as a seeker and ch'an buddhist have met some of the most stable minds on the board finding them to be daoist............. like Kl, and Tcb etc... can you share more of your thoughts???.....open to learning and thanking you in advance.........
good to consider new information and perspectives always
BL
TaiChiBob
08-20-2004, 03:22 PM
Greetings..
Humble bows and sincere thanks, blooming lotus.. but, i'm not sure i am a candidate for your quest.. My understandings are really only restatements of the wisdom of others, based on my own attempts to determine their validity.. Taoist philosophy (not to be confused with religious Taoism) is quite simple.. pay attention to the "nature" of things, nature supplies us with plenty of clues as to how to "get along".. it is when we ignore these clues that we conflict with nature, and i don't recommend conflicting with nature..
Religious Taoists seem to conflict with the philosophy of Taoism, they gather and ritualize otherwise perfectly natural experiences.. ancient Taoists gathered to share and recount their experiences in small informal groups and dispersed to acquire more of those experiences.. the formalizing of ritual is contrary to the spontaneous and unprejudiced experiences that define the Taoist quest.. A scholarly Taoist friend explained that, originally, the Taoist monastery was a place where Taoist adepts explained the central philosophy and sent out novices to begin their own discovery of their own nature.. but, as the popularity of Taoism grew the monasteries were flooded with seekers.. this prompted some organization which quickly gave way to ritualization.. now, it may be argued that it is a principle of nature and man to organize itself and as such is inherent to the "Way".. but, the most respected Taoists were rogues of questionable character.. they ascended beyond the need to organize, beyond the contrived "laws of Man", beyond the concern of self-image.. the lived purely in the moment, responding to each experience with their unprejudiced inner nature.. they had no concept of right/wrong, good/bad, they simply concluded which consequences they favored and acted accordingly.. often, they would even act contrary to the favored consequence just to have a different experience..
For the Taoist it is the experience itself that has value.. The Taoist is not inclined to accept someone else's description of an experience, rather they choose to have the experience themselves and make their own determinations according to their own nature.. Of course, that is where the Taoist often runs into conflict with the socio-religious matrix of approved behavior.. they simply don't understand why people would confine their existence and their experience to some authority that has its own contrary agendas..
The Taoist sees desire as a perfectly natural human condition and acts on those desires.. then, they evaluate the consequences to discern whether or not that experience is worth repeating.. they are amused at those that reject their nature in some contrived ritual to transcend the human experience.. heck, we come to this place for the purpose to experience the physical aspect of Tao, why then, reject it?.... but, that's another discussion for another time..
Be well..
Good post.
In the beginning, people started to stand up and roam the land after the dinosaurs mysteriously gone.
People were afraid of everything and believed there are Gods in control of everything.
The god of the river, the god of the Sun, the god of the wind, the god of fire, the god of the thunder, the god of great might, the god of ---
Both the Greek gods and the Chinese gods filled the myths and legends.
After modern science arrived, they are replaced by physics and chemistry.
There are areas that the science cannot yet explain. They are called supernatural, psychic, or paranormal, x-files, x-men or whatever.
Even today, people still like superheroes, even though not gods anymore.
Hellboy (son of Satan, but he is a good guy), spiderman, batman, on and on.
Assuming people are logical, why do people still have romantic thoughts about something greater than they are. There is a peace keeper. There is a superhero upholding the justice and defeating the evils.
If there is no God, who do we look up to?
If there is no superhero, then what do we do?
:confused:
blooming lotus
08-21-2004, 12:06 PM
Tai chi Bob.
Desire is natural but because of yin and yang and balance, that desire is equally as naturally half the time to potential detriment as it is potential pleasure and wellness. I'm all for new experience, but detatchment from desire, especially bearing in mind different individuals and their intentions, wasn't such a bad idea either.
I'm still not I sure I understand enough to convert, but thx for the run down anyway.
TaiChiBob
08-21-2004, 06:54 PM
Greetings..
Assuming people are logical, why do people still have romantic thoughts about something greater than they are.
We are parts of a whole.. a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts.. How can something be greater than the sum of its parts? Take an automobile engine, the parts lying in a pile are simply a pile of parts (the sum of the parts).. but, skillfully assembled, a functioning motor emerges.. a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts.. this begs the question of who or what is the skillful assembler.. my own experience indicates that it is the nature of all things to organize, it is simply the "way" the universe functions.. through countless universes and countless assemblies and destructions we arrive here, now.. People will find rationalizations and conceptualizations to explain this simple nature of the universe.. they will assign it personalities and names.. they will glorify it and deify it in myths.. they will claim it as their own and paint it their favorite color.. but, it cares naught for such mind-play, it is care-free in its quest to know its own nature.. Taoists sense this cosmic quest and try to mirror it in their own existence.. Taoists know they are not the "description", they seek the experience described..
but detatchment from desire, especially bearing in mind different individuals and their intentions, wasn't such a bad idea either.
Again, i assert that is avoiding the very reason we exist.. intentions, however they are perceived, are the conscious engines that drive the human experience.. life, as we know it, is intended to be experienced fully and with gusto.. not sterile and contrived or controlled beyond a healthy discipline and a benefit to our brothers and sisters.. The Universe (Tao) has built a grand stage for us to act out endless scenes that the Universe watches carefully, learning from parts of itself just what its own nature is.. to the degree we contrive and control this experience we deprive the universe of a true understanding of its own nature.. The universe is light/dark, "good/bad", yin/yang, etc... seeking a "way" in either extreme is unbalanced.. the mistake is in the frailty of judgement.. so many "sins" are conditional upon situations.. and so many situations are conditional upon cultural consensus.. and cultures war over their interpretations...
Yet, it is these very differing intentions that give life its meaning.. it is the dynamics of yin and yang, the interactions between yin and yang from which life emerges.. otherwise there would only be static pools of light/dark.. i honor conflict and adversity as tools to enhance my experience of this existence.. it is the extremes that define the boundaries of our existence.. i can only know pleasure in relationship to pain, and the intensity of either is dependent upon the intensity of the other.. so, great hardship is the foundation of great ecsatsy...
Sure, i can conceive of the intention of detachment from desire, but i find it is embraced by those unwilling to risk great peril for the obvious rewards of great experience.. i do not assert that we act on all desires, only that we evaluate the consequences and merit.. and, do no harm.. beyond that, enjoy the play.. The universe built the stage, but.. it is we that write the script.. i, for one, am writing an adventure.. and, you're all welcome to join in..
Be well..
Good points.
The computer has the logic of 0 and 1. The man-made machines:cars, airplanes, spacecraft, etc are products of logic.
Human is anything plus logic.
The nature is logic to a certain point.
There is randomness in the weather, tornado, earth quake, etc.
There is randomness or balance of disorders in the electrons spinning around the neutrons.
Everything is moving in a dynamic with respect to space and time.
The randomness or illogic produces more variations, more new possibilities and paths.
Simply put,
Logic alone does not explain nor predict weather.
Logic alone does not explain human fully.
And that defect, imperfection or illogic makes us human and not machine.
:cool:
blooming lotus
08-22-2004, 06:46 AM
I understand the concept of holarchy ( many wholes with the one whole ( pls see concentric circled systems if it helps)) but to not understand or at min have a theory on the final stage of spirit and vibration on that and other meta / quantum physical scope , hurts a guy in his / her depth. They don't understand and will maybe never confess because it is of the utmost intamacy, hence lack of shared or published work on the matter. That's getting raw in earnest, and because I've looked and developed a theory myself, I don't mind laying it bare. If you don't understand, you're either going to share your own thoughts expressed peacefully ( because self - peace is the or a goal of self / universal explorative thinking) , or you'll condinser mine and tell me I'm a raving lunatic for ever having thought about such things in the meantime. ... and maybe later get the b*lls to lay your own self out there with equal nudity..........
Nature is consisted of everything.
Logic vs illogic is only relative. You set a limit for the logic, there will be part that is outside (illogic) and part that is inside (logic).
The same idea is with Yin and Yang.
Thus Tai Ji comprises Yin and Yang.
Nature comprises logic and illogic (order and disorder/randomness).
Therefore if you only use logic or orderly science to analyze everything. You are only half right.
The other part is science of illogic, if you prefer. (I prefer parascience for disorderliness vs science orderliness)
You may not see beyond your logic/limit.
God is not in the realm of the logic.
Superheroes are products of logic.
You have to find God somewhere else.
:cool:
When other early cultures relied on worshiping Gods to have a control of weather, earthquake and everything in life.
Dance for rain.
Burn incense to Ma Tzu for a peaceful and quiet sea to have a safe fishing on the ocean.
Buddha of pharmacy for health.
God of fortune (Fu) for a good fortune.
God of wealth (Lu) for a good business.
God of longevity (Sou) for a long life. etc.
A science to study randomness arose.
Tai Ji Ba Gua is at least 4200 years old. The book of change (Zhou Yi/Yi Jing) is at least 3000 years old.
Instead of worshiping gods for a approval (yes) to safety, good fortune, health, wealth and a good long life. The daoists used Yin Yang Ba Gua to study change or randomness from cosmic events to daily life.
Christian belief is that life is a temptation from Satan. Only via closely following the scripture and full faith in God, may we have a permanent after life.
Buddhist belief is to practice good deeds to have a good karma, thus rise from cycles of reincarnation and reach extreme happiness in the west.
They place prerequisites for God's approval.
:)
Instead of doing good deeds or following doctrines to have a control of our life.
Whatever randomly happens to you is because whatever you did before in a karma sense. (Cause and effect)
Whatever randomly happens to you, bad ones are from sins (death are from Sin), good ones are from praying, following the scripture and are miracles(acts) from God. All the good things are not because of us, they are acts of God. No good deeds from people are good enough. Only a full faith and submission to God's will are the key.
The Daoists use Yin and Yang to explain and even predict the outcome of natural events that happen to the stars and to you in your daily life including fighting.
:)
How do you use Yin Yang Ba Gua to study MA?
A simplifying example:
Yin and Yang may be your left and right.
The high, mid and low are 3 zones of the body. (Trigrams)
The punch is the upper trigrams, and the kick is the lower trigrams. (Hexagrams)
You may have 64 combinations and even 108 results.
Instead of relying on randomness or pure luck to defeat the opponent, Chinese used Yin Yang to study how to fight and how to examine the seemingly disorderly events of fighting in an orderly way.
:D
blooming lotus
08-22-2004, 02:33 PM
logic is subjective and potential - be it of conciousness or body is just that, as opposed to a given state that will be achieved. Just to be aware of what your shooting for , or the way others got (?) there (wherever there is) prior is a very good start.
unkokusai
08-22-2004, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by blooming lotus
logic is subjective and potential .
LOL :rolleyes:
Actually, Daoism is the most "advanced" or "meticulous" religion or belief there is.
You have to follow a lot of doctrines to avoid the bad and receive the good.
In terms of time, read the almanac. There are certain things you can do only at a certain time.
In terms of space, read the Fengshui, it is deeper than California building codes.
If you really want to practice Daoism or in control of randomness in an orderly fashion (science to the parascience).
You have to consult your almanac and Fengshui about everything. When to travel, to work. Where to go or not to go.
It is a mind boggling belief.
If you want to use science to study randomness, and think you are above all religions.
Ding Ding. You believe in the worst nightmare form of religions which is Daoism.
:cool:
blooming lotus
08-22-2004, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by SPJ
Actually, Daoism is the most "advanced" or "meticulous" religion or belief there is.
:cool:
I'd love to accept that, but I'm a ch'an buddhist and I think we're a little tight ourselves. Little dogmatic but you're opinion is welcome.( by me anyway)
blooming lotus
08-22-2004, 02:59 PM
science is not religion, but when we are talking about systems of belief that invlove an entity in the sky ( however misinterperated that has become),calling and fire and brimstone or endless salvation pending your deservance, though "HE" 's uncomprimisingly forgiving and loving and so on, I have to be able to apply some reality. And while it won't win me an arguement nor most likely a conversion, it helps me understand personally regardless.
I think the Dalai had similar words/ thoughts on the matter.
In a broader sense, science is a religion that everything can be explained in an orderly way.
Science is only half the truth.
Science to control your life will be mind boggling beyond belief.
I cannot drink the water. Where it comes from? Is there bacteria, chlorine, lead,---
I cannot eat this, is it low carb, no sugar, zero cholestrol, non-fat, low sodium 200 Kcal--
Take a great leap of a faith just to eat and drink.
Science does that to you.
Daoism does that to you, too.
You may think you are not following any belief or religions.
Actually, you are in everything you do and everything you think.
:cool:
blooming lotus
08-22-2004, 03:03 PM
that encompasses laws of science too right.
BL
I am actually posting in response to TCB.
I lost my train of thoughts now.
:D
TaiChiBob
08-22-2004, 05:10 PM
Greetings..
There is a deep and subtle beauty revealed by science.. that consciousness has a direct effect on the experience, that anything observed is affected by the consciousness of the observer.. in short, we experience what we choose to experience.. of course, that choice is prejudiced by our mentors, our natural inclinations, and our ability to discipline our selves... so, one man's religion is another man's folly..
Taoist philosophy suggests that the core issue is one of pure unprejudiced experience, achievable only with a "still" mind.. it is from that unprejudiced experience that we can discern the "way" things actually "are".. it is from that clear perspective that we can see the appropriateness of our choices.. Now, many theories and many great minds have mapped out ways to get to the still-mind experience.. but, in the end, the choice is our's alone.. too much time spent examinng and perfecting the paths others have taken will only delay your own journey.. certainly there is wisdom in the "tried and true", but.. it is just a "finger pointing the way", you must make your own way.. to give over your life-experience to some ritual or guru is spiritual suicide, a waste of this physical manifestation.. that is not to say that the disciplines that free the mind should be avoided, only that one must be willing to claim ownership of that free mind..
Taoism, is a simple and profound philosophy.. its misinterpretation and defilement is the product of minds that could not accept responsibility for their own freedom, minds that supposed if there was a system, a complex system, one's failure could be explained by some deviation from that system..
Religion is simply a choice to accept a prescribed path rather than find your own.. it is neither natural nor inherent to the experience.. unless you believe it is..
Be well..
Good points.
The theory of Dao does start with the still mind, the open mind or nothing in the mind (Wu Ji state).
Buddhism Za zen stresses the same. Unclutter your mind to be able to see the truth. Worldly things, wants, desires are distractions and sources of sufferings. No wants, no desires, no sufferings. Or everything is not permanent. Everything is therefore nothing. Only persue the truth. And again start with an open mind.
Chan Buddhism is very open and flexible. That is why it is so popular even today. Your way to the truth is your Chan.
People think science is the root. Other see it is a distraction, too.
Science is nothing more than people's reasoning or logics of ways of nature or how everything in the nature works. Science can be proved wrong and wrong over and over, till the truth is finally revealed.
Science is a path to seek the truth. So it is a religion, too.
Everything that science cannot explain is conveniently grouped into the works of God.
Christian stresses full faith in God. What everything goes is according to God's will. A total surrender of people's will. This is the clear and single path.
Buddhism and Daoism both stress to start with an open/still mind.
Both stress to study the paths first before making a right choice.
The choice to abandon worldly things and to seek the truth (science included).
The choice to study and understand nature (science included) and to follow the path that nature follows.
If you have full faith in science, it is your religion. You have to accept that your faiths have to be changed over and over by new theories and new evidences from labs and beyond.
But what about the part that science can not explain. Wouldn't the religion be supposed to explain everything in a grand scheme?
So science is bigger or smaller than the religions?
A frog believes in swimming.
A bird believes in flying.
A human believes in everything including science with or without religions.
:cool:
Start with an open mind.
Study the beaten paths and make a better choice.
People may wander in the sea of life and take on whatever comes in your way.
Alternatively, you also may have an intended goal or destination and consult maps and satelite info feed.
A drifter or a planned traveller.
A free roamer or an informed "rider".
Both are paths.
:)
Shaolindynasty
08-22-2004, 09:32 PM
Sombody move this crap to the "meditation and qigong" area:p
The idea of Wu Ji, Tai Ji and Yin Yang:
It is not only a way to look at everything. It is also a way to debate and find the truth.
We start with nothing and end with nothing (Wu Ji).
When we set a limt, there will be a part inside (Yang) and a part outside of the limit (Yin). They both arise at the same time and interact interdependently. When they both stop (still), they come together in union and become one state of Wu Ji (limitness, open, stillness).
Day and night.
Right and wrong.
Logic and ill-logic.
Law and lawless.
Order and orderless/randomness/disorderliness.
Science and paranormal/supernatural.
A drifter and a planned traveller.
A free roamer and an informed rider.
----
Peace.
:D
blooming lotus
08-25-2004, 01:42 PM
these posts TCB and SPJ are kind of complicated for some to absorb.
I think rather than cultivating the path if you can focus on cultivated the means to see it clearly, the rest will take care of itself.
On doaist misinterperatation, I think the same is true of any belief system and the toaist is not alone.
SPJ : Science and religion are both similar in that regard ( that that they are both expressions of findings on reasonings and logic on how everything works). Everything that science can't expain and is therefore relegated to works of god, are also still unexplained but there is comfort in the declaration of the group not knowing for their collective reason.
Science as a Religion : I have great faith in science though because its findings are subjective to only what has been studied, it has potential to change. As you know, I am a ch'an buddhist and really can't accept your thoughts on that one.
If the science is legitimate, It'll give credence to religion .
cheers BL
Apology. I went too deep too fast.
All the posts are in response to TCB. So you have to read both.
A belief is a faith. Which means you believe in it beyond any doubts. It can be a person, a thing, a doctrine, a book, science, --.
If you do not believe in Christ, Buddha or Alah, that does not mean you do not have a faith.
If you do not believe in any religion, that means you believe in no religion. It by itself is a religion of atheism. or idea or ism or a faith.
Yes, We may not be able to prove the existence of God.
Yet, can we prove that there is no God?
I guess not.
:D
Science is a set of rules.
Everything should be observable, measurable (qualify and quantify) and repeatable.
What if something is not observable by us or machines?
What if something is not measurable in any units enforced by human, metric or whatever?
What if something is so random and only occurs once.
Poof, there are not science-able, therefore they do not exist.
Anything we believe beyond any doubts is a religion.
In that sense, science is the greatest faith or the most religious religion.
:D
TaiChiBob
08-25-2004, 06:28 PM
Greetings..
What if:
the human can sense things not yet measurable by science
science denies the existence of things unmeasurable
What is?
the difference between knowledge and belief
the difference between faith, belief and hope
For me:
Knowledge is based on experience (internal or external)
Belief sounds right and feels right, but has room for doubt
Faith is lacking evidence but enlists hope that it could be true
Religion suggests worship.. i do not.. at best, the life you live is evidence of what you worship.. not the rituals you "perform".. my personal motto, as i have stated before, is: worship nothing, yet maintain a sacred reverence for ALL things..
It seems to me that the fullness and richness of life is lost on the masses of people subserviant to doctrine and dogma.. that within each of us is the inherent wisdom necessary to "be all we can be".. and, that includes compassion and caring, as well as mean and hateful.. we need only to discipline our ability to discern the appropriate uses of each..
Be well..
Good points. TCB;
Response to Bl;
Where is Buddha? I asked. The teacher said: Look nowhere else. Buddha is in you. Buddha comes from your heart.
How to read words beyond words and stories beyond stories in Chan;
Learn to know the heart.
Words are from the thoughts. Thoughts are from the heart.
The original post:
-Falun was acceptted widely because of the social economic changes in China. Workers in the factory, low pay government employee are sort of left out in the economic boom. People are looking for a belief. There are more richer people. The wealth did not go to the rest. The life is actually more difficult for more people after de-socializing jobs, medicine, housing etc.
-Government ban came due to the fact that the believers outgrew the number of CCP members and threatened the security of the power base.
-KC's heart/position is that beware of cults. Not all religions are the same.
-TCB's heart/position is to have your own path and not resorting to the ceremonial and existing religions/paths.
-SPJ heart/position is to be neutral on Falun.
-SPJ is a Christian. So I purposely included God in the discussion of paths; of which TCB is muted.
Since the science is flawed, thus, the flawed may not prove the flawless (God).
Unclutter the whole thread.
:D
TaiChiBob
08-26-2004, 03:31 PM
Greetings..
To clarify your perspective of my posts...
-TCB's heart/position is to have your own path and not resorting to the ceremonial and existing religions/paths. To follow a well-worn path is perfectably acceptable.. as long as it's your informed choice.. if you have examined the alternatives with an open mind and find a particular existing path satisfactory, then.. it is YOUR path...
-SPJ is a Christian. So I purposely included God in the discussion of paths; of which TCB is muted.
"God" is a "word" that points to a supreme spiritual awareness, seek the awareness.. I was raised in a reformist Christian environment.. i have simply freed the notion of "God" from the prison created by those that conspired to compile the book known as the Bible.. What i observe is differing cultures experiencing that "supreme spiritual awareness" from their particular set of cultural values.. One experience/many interpretations.. and it is arrogant to suppose that any particular interpretation is superior to another, more-so to demand such.. But, yes, i do sense that the universe(s) are embraced by a single self-aware consciousness.. of which we are part and parcel.. as parts of the whole we are the whole.. separated only by the self-imposed limits of our own perceptions..
Aside from all that.. live and let live.. and be sincere about it.. respect each beings' right to exist .. attend to your personal perspective of "God".. and DO NO HARM except in defense of self or others.. and even then let compassion guide your actions.. but, when all else fails respond decisively and speak your truth clearly..
I once saw a signature line that i liked.. "better to be a warrior in the garden, than a gardener in the war".. wise words..
Be well...
FngSaiYuk
08-26-2004, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by SPJ
Everything should be observable, measurable (qualify and quantify) and repeatable.
What if something is not observable by us or machines?
No - If it is observable, measurable and repeatable, than it can be relied upon and built upon. We do NOT know everything, new advances continually increase the body of knowledge we rely on. I something is currently not observable, in time it likely will be.
Science is only a faith to those who turn it into a faith by not acknowledging that ANYTHING is still possible despite the body of knowledge we rely on, and subsequently fiercly deny that anything else does not 'exist'.
What science is, is the set of rules to verify as thoroughly as possible what should be relied on to contiue advancing our knowledge.
It's quite separate from a belief system.
Good point.
Let me say it in another way assumming that the same line of thinking for science may also apply to religion.
I do not want to censure science any more. You spell it out very well for science in your post.
Science and religions are different paths to approach or to understand life or everything we "perceive" with our minds or sensory functions.
My points are if you accept science so willingly, we may also accept religions the same way; not counting the cults.
Science starts with a theory based upon what we know and agree, and experiments are done to prove the theory or modify to new theory. More observations are done. The laws of physics or chemistry should be applied universally. However, we often find exceptions to the rules.
Science is an attempt by people to use an orderly rules or predictable rules to understand how nature works. The fact is that everything changes with time and space. There are a lot of things just work randomly or do not follow the rules. Science has to accept that.
Science also is based on physical features or forms that are measurable. But we also know that there are also realms of formless. Which science cannot prove or study. There are things that are formless, orderless, and unmeasureable. These are inherently not following the rules. Science is out for them. Or if we use another man-made system or model to characterize them in an orderly way which will not be all representative. So science is inevitably flawed by its own design and not to accept.
Buddhism for example is a giant school of theory about what ever happening in the physical world is related to our mind, perception and action. They are scientific, too. They rigorously analyze life and try to find cause and effect about everything in life including the desire realm, form realm and formless realm.
Although the hells or afterlife or reincarnation are not provable. But other part of Buddhism still make sense in a scientific way to a lot of people. Although you cannot experiments them, but you may find empirically evidences plenty enough. That is why it is the largest religion in the world.
The topic is too big to tackle.
My main point is that religion or God is also a path or a way to life. For some people, it is the only path.
Cheers.
:)
FngSaiYuk
08-28-2004, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by SPJ
The topic is too big to tackle.
My main point is that religion or God is also a path or a way to life. For some people, it is the only path.
Cheers.
:)
Yep, yep... I agree completely-
a) too big to tackle
b) various paths to a belief system allowing people to enjoy their lives and live prosperously and compatibly with others
c) each person is unique, their outlook unique, and so the path most compatible with them unique
d) ergo, tolerance - help out when requested, but don't act unless there's threat of reasonable harm
blooming lotus
08-31-2004, 02:02 PM
I was talking to a Russian Ma circuit victor friend of mine about philosophy ( being that his father was a philosphy major and he grew up with and around a wide range of different initmate beliefs and information thereof) and also considered that my daughter ( now 10 turning 11) has had much the same environmental influences and ( by whatever standards or parameters they measure it by) has likewise to himself pulled an extremely impressive IQ score and is now being integrated into little genius school.
I believe ( and did prior to meeting this guy , which recents talks have somewhat confirmed ) that the 2 were related. As we know, various phsycolgical systems of evaluation have very definate tables and structure of waves of and through conciousness and human psyche evoloutionary wave systems up to and including transcendetentdal awareness ( as exists in many "religious " systems, ( for example : once you have enough information about and develope logic for the beliefs humanity has and how it effects their behaviour and life in general ) , you tend to intimately understand most concepts of most behaviour. How do you think , if it all, this fits into our world and this discussion??
I think the question posted is that how can one have a better mind to advance in spiritual learning faster. Higher IQ or certain psychological profiles?
To me, the answer is no.
Study, study and study. Think, think and think. Meditate, meditate, and meditate. Za Zen, Za zen, and za zen,
When the time or the event comes, you are clear or enlightened.
The event that triggers this is your method name. (Fa Hou).
I may have known a lot 20 or 30 years ago. Via meditation over time, I see, look or think deeper. That is it.
I was asked to think about one thing at a time over and over.
Basically, we are not creating something out of nothing. We are studying everything in life and try to find a universal truth that applies to all or a common link.
Your IQ may be in the way. Your logic may be in the way.
For example, I may show a boy a triangle and a circle. What do you see? A high IQ and logic boy says a triangle and a circle. They are different shapes. Because that is exactly he was told to learn.
A spiritual mind may try to find the commonlity. And say I see a line. There is no beginning and no ends. I see an area inside and the other outside the line. I see a barrier.
I see reasoning of continum in the line. I see divison marked by the line.
Basically, I see a line. I try to see what it means. It goes back to where it starts. I see nature of the line. I see areas divided by it. I see what it does (function).
Of course, they represent the shapes. The shapes formed by the line. What does a circle mean and do? What does a triangle mean and do?
On and on.
What do you see?
To have an open mind means to have a mind that is not limited by conventions. The mind may go as deep as it can go. Our thoughts maybe as profound as they can be.
But there is always a thread of consistency or line of thinking. Otherwise, we are lost easily in the abyss we called mind.
:)
FngSaiYuk
09-01-2004, 05:27 AM
Originally posted by SPJ
For example, I may show a boy a triangle and a circle. What do you see? A high IQ and logic boy says a triangle and a circle. They are different shapes. Because that is exactly he was told to learn.
A spiritual mind may try to find the commonlity. And say I see a line. There is no beginning and no ends. I see an area inside and the other outside the line. I see a barrier.
I see reasoning of continum in the line. I see divison marked by the line.
On and on.
What do you see?
So I drew a red circle and a green triangle and showed it to my eldest son (7yo) and asked him what he saw.
A T-Rex is about to get burned up by a ball of lava rolling down the volcano!!!
Then he took the paper and finished the drawing.... real cute, kidz...
::grin::
blooming lotus
09-01-2004, 07:54 AM
I still think it's an intellegent concept to want to have an enlightened mind and so begans the early stages of "transcendental intellect" which the more you get of, the more by common standards improve your "IQ".... Just missing the connection I feel . Meiguanxi, most do.
Yes. Basic intelligence is still needed.
What the conventional wisdom tells you is that what thing and how thing are different.
The spiritual mind seeks the truth, therefore it looks for the sameness in everything.
The convention mind says a circle and a triangle are different in shapes.
The spiritual mind seeks the sameness in both. They both are formed by a line. They both continue. They both form barriers or divisions.
The Buddha seeks the sameness in everything in life. Everthing in life is impermanent, therefore it is empty. That is the sameness in everything.
The Daoist mind seeks the sameness in people and nature. We are part of the nature. We are in the same group of everything else in nature. We too follow the same path/law/dao of nature.
On and on.
:)
Enlightenment means that your mind is clear or luminous.
Light goes everywhere.
You have to see thru everything. Not only what it may just appear.
There is no corner in a circle.
There are 3 corners (60 degree's) in a triangle. There are 3 stops and a 3 turns.
My limbs may form a 3 corners (wrist, elbow, shoulder; ankle, knee and hip).
My limbs may form close to a circle.
If you only think about circles, you practice Tai Ji Quan.
If you think about lines, you practice Wai Jia Quan.
There is more to the circles.
:)
FngSaiYuk
09-01-2004, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by blooming lotus
I still think it's an intellegent concept to want to have an enlightened mind and so begans the early stages of "transcendental intellect" which the more you get of, the more by common standards improve your "IQ".... Just missing the connection I feel . Meiguanxi, most do.
The better concept would be raw self improvement. I have a problem with the term 'enlightened' - it implies I'm somehow BETTER than most others around me. I may try a good deal harder and I may have some natural advantages in some things and I may have overcome some natural disadvantages in others, but when it comes down to it, it's just all basic self improvement.
It's pretty much the same problem I have with 'IQ' and groups such as Mensa - oooh look at me, I scored higher in a bunch of tests than you did! Yah, whateva, I can kick your ass... and if not, I can stalk your ass and blow you up...
In this day and age, it's not like it'll get you anywhere 'spiritual' trying to best others in tests and what not. The self growth in continually working to improve yourself and the lifestyle of you and yours - well, THAT REALLY brings about some solid and positive, emotional benefits.
In any case, it's always best to compare your current self to your past self rather than comparing yourself and your accomplishments, aquisitions, whatnot to others'.
blooming lotus
09-02-2004, 04:01 AM
I've had this discussion so many times here, but IQ is a factor of modern life and I happen to have a high one. I was talking to another psyche major here and he said " yah, it's your quotient, but someone made that test and from what perspective they did they see the world".....( please add American drole here :P :) ) or something similar....regardless of how our experts apply that to what they consider relevant to our world today, and regardless of the categories they neglected in contructing these tests, my point is basically that you can still acheive the same "prowess " by gearing toward self - betterment ( however you do it) and though IQ is only a number, deep and firm belief, I feel is much to muchness.
By the way , I agree! you're best standard to compare to is the one you were at previously. :cool: :)
Yes. High IQ is very important.
Nothing wrong to have a high score.
My point is that to study hard and to think with an open mind are also important.
All the great minds had to study, think, analyze or work hard, too.
Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison, on and on.
To be a spiritual person, it is more so than other. You have to meditate, think or analyze hard everyday.
Agreed on high IQ is important, too.
:D
blooming lotus
09-02-2004, 07:16 AM
but regardless of how "they " measure Iq, don't you think it's a property of IQ to want the better mind in first place??? and then , doesn't that make us on spiritual paths more equal than before such idiotic tests divided us???
FngSaiYuk
09-02-2004, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by blooming lotus
but regardless of how "they " measure Iq, don't you think it's a property of IQ to want the better mind in first place??? and then , doesn't that make us on spiritual paths more equal than before such idiotic tests divided us???
Nope, I've met some lazy asses with considerably high IQ scores. They're content just to 'wing it' in everything. A particular philosophy that turns me off is 'if I have to try, it's not worth it...'
So, again, no, a high score on a test does NOT mean anything other than that individual is skilled, whether naturally or through training, at that particular test, and so has potential for excelling in things that are related/similiar to the test.
blooming lotus
09-02-2004, 01:01 PM
maybe these folk you met just have a different take on beliefs and what it is to acquire and persue a better mind. You can't fault them for not knowing and IQ is not exclusive to lack of belief system nor is belief system exclusive to high IQ holders . But together , they make for an awesome package. ( that said though, desire or strength of that belief 'll no doubt do the same thing ;) ) :cool:
FngSaiYuk
09-02-2004, 03:16 PM
I'm not going to presume I know anything about what goes on in their head... I was just giving you a counter example to your considering that it was a PROPERTY of IQ that one is also attempting to better themselves. Again, the score you get on a test has no bearing on how you live your life. All it does is give you an idea of your potential in areas related/similiar to that test.
blooming lotus
09-03-2004, 07:22 AM
right , and how many folks go through life never knowing what a "potential " is, let alone their own??
I think that's a huge impact. Even if a placebo .
FngSaiYuk
09-03-2004, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by blooming lotus
right , and how many folks go through life never knowing what a "potential " is, let alone their own??
I think that's a huge impact. Even if a placebo .
Ohhhh ok, I think I get what you're trying to get at... These tests are like encouragement to people who either have a natural talent and predisposition towards, or who are rather well trained in, the particular test.
So now, going by that logic, what then to those who are NOT very good at those tests, but either have quite a bit of natural talent, or are willing to train to the point of expertise in real world skills that the tests were supposed to be a measuring factor of?
To put it simply, if everyone were to take, let's say an IQ test, and some people had higher scores than others... it can be a hindrance due to the blow to the ego for those that didn't score well, yet who may have a much greater potential.
blooming lotus
09-03-2004, 12:35 PM
Right and that is extremely unfortunate, but because of the way it's geared, as in to apreciate only a certain range of skill etc, no doubt the ones who missed out there will be catered for by other tests and means. It balances out in the end.
unkokusai
09-04-2004, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by blooming lotus
I've had this discussion so many times here, but IQ is a factor of modern life and I happen to have a high one.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaahahahahaaahahahaha!
cerebus
09-05-2004, 12:23 AM
Ditto. Followed by: *barf*
omarthefish
09-05-2004, 03:04 AM
Originally posted by blooming lotus
but regardless of how "they " measure Iq, don't you think it's a property of IQ to want the better mind in first place??? and then , doesn't that make us on spiritual paths more equal than before such idiotic tests divided us???
No.
This is incorrect.
The only the IQ measures is your aptitude for success in the public school system. That's what the IQ test was designed for. There are many kinds of intellegence but "IQ" as measured in the various standardized test measure only you aptitude for school and nothing more.
If you don't believe me, ask a school teacher or a psychologist who is qualified to administer these things.
cerebus
09-05-2004, 03:33 AM
Heh, heh. Therein lies the problem. bl thinks she IS a school teacher or psychologist qualified to administer such tests. Unfortunately, she's not even qualified to TAKE such a test (can't measure what you don't have, bl ;) ).
cerebus
09-05-2004, 03:39 AM
And, for the record, if she chooses not to believe you about a particular subject, she WON'T try to research the subject at all. The most she might do is try to find something that she thinks supports HER view (though that's usually because she read it wrong in the first place). Otherwise she'll just cling to her own opinion and tell you that you're closed-minded for not accepting her erroneous opinions over proven facts. A real joke she is.
blooming lotus
09-05-2004, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by omarthefish
No.
This is incorrect.
The only the IQ measures is your aptitude for success in the public school system. That's what the IQ test was designed for. There are many kinds of intellegence but "IQ" as measured in the various standardized test measure only you aptitude for school and nothing more.
If you don't believe me, ask a school teacher or a psychologist who is qualified to administer these things.
first , I'll assume you meant to say " the only thing the IQ test measures " etc etc.....
second, you're wrong, did you know when you apply to the army, or go through to " advanced student " education ( talking grown up world concepts , learning and info, most folk wouldn't even begin to understand ) , an apptitude test is where the requirement and differentiation lays???!!!???
Call it what you will for your lack of understanding! Unless your talking logic, or academia, doesn't amount to much more than revealing yourself to be a silly D*ck. :rolleyes:
I never said I administered these tests, but have taken many , since , like my kid, they discovered when we were quite young, according to whatever standard and boundary they deduct such things from , we both freakily excelled. :confused:
And deny it, lie about it, try to make everyone believe I never existed or whatever the hell your saying, I'm still teaching at uni in Lioaning, have taught both teachers and post grads previously, and you are having a conversation with your own fantastical ignorance. :rolleyes:
All I do is reasearch, hence the different facts I share. :rolleyes: ... anymore sarcasm , and I think I'm gon' end up with a twitch from all the rolleyes .
Grow a perspective , for freaks sake. Make it solid and make it informed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BL
cerebus
09-05-2004, 06:42 AM
LOL! See what I mean? :p
blooming lotus
09-05-2004, 06:44 AM
still conrtibuting in leaps and bounds I see. Who gives 2 shytes if you're older!! You're an immature guy and you need to find yourself a life that has meaning and is based on information.
cerebus
09-05-2004, 06:48 AM
"Blah blah blah blah blah" "Blah blah blah blah blah blah!!!"
(Look everyone, I learned how to communicate with bl in her own language! :p :p :p ).
There was a girl named Erika.
Her father is a racer in car.
Erika was always around the car. She eventually races in cars, too.
She was not 16 year old yet. But she has already experiences in operating a vehicle at high speed in the race.
When she took the road test for driving license at 17 years old. Was she testing the test or the test was testing her ?
Either way she would pass with flying colors.
There was a boy. He only read about racing in the magazine. He read about how to drive in a manual. He only practices with a teacher on how to pass the road test.
He also passed the test with a flying color.
Hm, is the test valid?
Or are they both at the same level of proficiency in driving?
Hmmmm???
:confused:
blooming lotus
09-05-2004, 07:37 AM
nice attempt to divert focus from your own stoopid acting self.. If you're not , STOP FREAKIN ACTING LIKE IT'S TRUE!!!!!!!!!
sPAZZES :rolleyes:
omarthefish
09-05-2004, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by blooming lotus
[B]first , I'll assume you meant to say " the only thing the IQ test measures " etc etc.....
I can see you're smart enough to fill in the blanks...that's one of the type of questions they ask on those IQ tests you know.
second, you're wrong, did you know when you apply to the army, or go through to " advanced student " education ( talking grown up world concepts , learning and info, most folk wouldn't even begin to understand ) , an apptitude test is where the requirement and differentiation lays???!!!???
That doesn't really refute what I said. The tests are used for all sorts of things. They were designed as predictors of academic success.
Call it what you will for your lack of understanding! Unless your talking logic, or academia, doesn't amount to much more than revealing yourself to be a silly D*ck. :rolleyes:
I never said I administered these tests, but have taken many , since , like my kid, they discovered when we were quite young, according to whatever standard and boundary they deduct such things from , we both freakily excelled. :confused:
So did I. My mom still has the results from the tests I took when I entered the California school system. 165+
I still didn't graduate from college and am thus far spectacularly unsuccessfull professionally so I am fairly cynical about the tests for these and other reasons.
And deny it, lie about it, try to make everyone believe I never existed or whatever the hell your saying, I'm still teaching at uni in Lioaning, have taught both teachers and post grads previously, and you are having a conversation with your own fantastical ignorance. :rolleyes:
Who are you talking to? This part sounds like you are confusing me with someone else. I have never bothered to really keep up on whether you are or are not in China or at what school.
All I do is reasearch, hence the different facts I share. :rolleyes: ... anymore sarcasm , and I think I'm gon' end up with a twitch from all the rolleyes .
Grow a perspective , for freaks sake. Make it solid and make it informed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BL
My perspective on what IQ tests are designed for is informed by the discussions I have had on the subject with my Dad who is a licensed psychologist and qualified to give them. I also have spent lots of time talking about the subject with my previous GF who was a school teacher and had studied the subject as part of her Masters in Education.
IQ tests are designed to predict academic peformance. Nothing more.
bungle
09-05-2004, 01:03 PM
You guys spend a lot of energy and time debating some pointless stuff. Your focus is unregulated debate and i don't think it achieves anything.
www.releasetechnique.com
Emotional intelligence. Now that's worth focussing on.
Buddism is about thinking about the truth, speaking about the truth and acting according the truth.
Chan is about a life story or an observation that points to the truth and makes you think about the truth.
Most important of all, truth is above self (Atman) or all inclusive. That means many selves or a greater self or no or non-self (Anatman).
Words or speech are from the thoughts.
If you are not thinking about the truth, and you cling to the self, it will be difficult to see the truth.
Thus the development of Tantric teachings or Tantras.
In short, in Chan, you include other people's thoughts and expand them and point to the bigger picture which is the truth.
When you state something, it is only a view or a focus of the truth. You always have to see beyond "self" or that statement.
No need to name calling.
The person is bad therefore his speech or view is wrong.
No. The view is agreed and expanded.
A boy asked mom for a candy. Mom said you are silly, therefore you cannot have a candy.
Or you can have the candy when you wash your hands or done with your home work.
Or candy is bad for your teeth. You can only have one a day.
Or you can have a banana or an orange, candy is not good for your teeth.
Or ---
Give me a break. My fingers are hurting by pointing so long already.
:)
A test is just a test.
If you are good, you will be good in life and in the test.
If you are only good at the test, you are only good at test.
That does not mean you are good in life also.
Of course, there will be people good in life and not so good in test.
In that case, the test fails to identify goodness in them.
Peace.
:)
On how to control your emotions;
When we are overwhelmed with emotions, we may not make the best decisions or judgements.
The first thing I was taught in the 60's.
Jin Din An Lui De.
First, you have to be quiet or calm. (Jin)
Then, you may be stable or firm or steady. (Din)
Then, you may be in peace. (An)
Then, you may start thinking or considering. (Lui)
Then, you may come up with a better solution or answer. (De)
This applies in life and most important of all in combat.
It all starts with Jin.
That is why we practice Qi Gong and meditation.
:)
On how to win an argument or a war;
San Bin Fa Mo. (Sun Tzu, 2500 years ago)
There are 13 chapters and over 6000 words in Sun Tzu Bin Fa.
He studied (Wo Qi Jing) from Yellow Emperor. He also studied Tai Gong Bin Fa from his grand grand father.
Sun Tzu summaried in the four letters on a bamboo stick.
San Bin Fa Mo.
Which means to fight a war is to use a strategy to win.
It is not about what you know or what you are good at.
It is about knowing what the opponent wants and needs.
You may then come up with a strategy to win even without a fight.
I have to recite Sun Tzu now.
Peace.
:)
blooming lotus
09-06-2004, 04:20 AM
Originally posted by omarthefish
So did I. My mom still has the results from the tests I took when I entered the California school system. 165+
that's an awesome acheivement!!! And in fact higher than my own. :)
I still didn't graduate from college and am thus far spectacularly unsuccessfull professionally so I am fairly cynical about the tests for these and other reasons.
Who are you talking to? This part sounds like you are confusing me with someone else. I have never bothered to really keep up on whether you are or are not in China or at what school.
My perspective on what IQ tests are designed for is informed by the discussions I have had on the subject with my Dad who is a licensed psychologist and qualified to give them. I also have spent lots of time talking about the subject with my previous GF who was a school teacher and had studied the subject as part of her Masters in Education.
IQ tests are designed to predict academic peformance. Nothing more.
But because of the range of fields of study we have available, what in theory is not or does not have an academic nature??? Even gardening in the backyard..... or cooking a sumptious meal, riding a bike???
Do you understand there are absolute laws ( no doubt with with potential to change considering rapid technological and research growth and expansion ) governing every application of humanity???
Don't worry too much about responding. To be honest, I find value in every bodys' experience and I don't care about any one test result .
Still, an IQ test is just not that important. It's just a stupid test, measuring one small aspect of a person's potential. You don't get college credit for it, you don't get paid for it, and it doesn't seem to help a person in any concrete way :p I know a downs sendrome girl who's much more successful than most normal to genius IQ'ed people I've come across(including myself). She's made enough money through acting to buy her own house, is ingaged to be married, and was even writting a book, lol. That last part is what impressed me the most about this girl, because her writting was clearer than some of the people who write on this board ;) I think patience, focus, desire, humility, and emotional strength are all more important traits than anything one silly acedemic test can messure. A lot of very intellegent people have had a hard time living up to their true potential, while a lot of average and lower intellegenced people have been able to have very productive and happy lives, contributing a great deal to society.
blooming lotus
09-06-2004, 07:38 AM
Actually, in some places they put high value on such things. If you couple that with my combo of previous life - styles, you'd no doubt appreciate the correlation yourself, but have classes in 20 mins, so gotta run
unkokusai
09-06-2004, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by blooming lotus
I never said I administered these tests, but have taken many , since , like my kid, they discovered when we were quite young, according to whatever standard and boundary they deduct such things from , we both freakily excelled.
, I'm still teaching at uni in Lioaning, have taught both teachers and post grads previously,
Seriously, isn't there some way to get this person some professional help or something? This is really getting out of hand.
blooming lotus
09-06-2004, 11:53 AM
and there are other folks here with IQ s even higher. Is it just me or was that the sound of fragile egos shattering. Look, high IQ or not, we all have a talent, and academia happens to be one mine. Why is that a big deal??
Serpent
09-06-2004, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by blooming lotus
and there are other folks here with IQ s even higher. Is it just me or was that the sound of fragile egos shattering. Look, high IQ or not, we all have a talent, and academia happens to be one mine. Why is that a big deal??
Because you prove in almost every post that you are the academic equivalent of a snail in 100 metre sprint. You can't even accept that your understanding of spelling, grammar and punctuation are outright wrong and yet you think we'll accept your self-professed academic "talent"?
omarthefish
09-06-2004, 06:18 PM
Actually...
Spelling, grammar etc. are really tiny parts of what is measured in an IQ test. They tend to look for things like recognition of patterns, analogies and the abilitiy to visualize in 3D. Vocabulary is part of the test as well but more in the way it plays into you ability to recognize themes and metaphores.
The parts that IQ tests DON'T measure is your ability to make intelligent decisions, the previously mentioned "emotional intelligence", the ability to read people, business sense, intuition, value judgements and many others. There are probably hundreds of areas of intelligence not measured by IQ tests. I can't remember where but I seem to remember having read somewhere that the most sucessfull people as measured by financial achievement, marriage without divorce, and some vague surveys about "happines" :confused: seemed to indicate that actually the most "successfull" people tend to be the ones in the "above average" category with regard to IQ. Appatently a lot of geniuses are ****ing idots.
;)
unkokusai
09-06-2004, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by blooming lotus
Look, high IQ or not, we all have a talent, and academia happens to be one mine. Why is that a big deal??
This is just sad. It's like driving past the same car accident again and again as the bodies decompose.
Serpent
09-07-2004, 03:43 AM
Originally posted by omarthefish
Actually...
Spelling, grammar etc. are really tiny parts of what is measured in an IQ test.
Sure. But if a person considers themselves talented academically, you'd think they would at least be able to communicate clearly in a written forum.
;)
blooming lotus
09-07-2004, 07:59 AM
Sure. I'll admit I have talent. To say otherwise about me or anyone else , you are doing nothing but wasting your time on meaningless drivel. Considering the nature of the bulk of your posts, it's not surprising you're still comming to define "emotional intelligence".
PS: Are you on a personl mission to defile any thread I post on or is this truly the best you have to contribute???!!!
Serpent
09-07-2004, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by blooming lotus
Sure. I'll admit I have talent. To say otherwise about me or anyone else , you are doing nothing but wasting your time on meaningless drivel. Considering the nature of the bulk of your posts, it's not surprising you're still comming to define "emotional intelligence".
PS: Are you on a personl mission to defile any thread I post on or is this truly the best you have to contribute???!!!
Is all this directed at me? Anyway, by the very fact that you've posted on a thread, the defilement is already there.
And as for "Sure. I'll admit I have talent." Well, you're the only one that would based on what we know of you. You don't even have talent as a pathological liar, because your lies are awful and inconsistent.
rubthebuddha
09-07-2004, 09:14 AM
i go away for one weekend and this thread turns into sheer asshattery. if you folks want to talk about falun, make a new thread. otherwise, take the asshat tendencies somewhere else.
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