sanda roundhouse

[jungle-mania]

Anyone here uses the ankle to strike for a roundhouse kick in sanda? You chamber up like a TKD roundhouse and then strike out with a flexed instep (like WTF TKD) but you strike with your ankle. Upon contact, you push the kick through like a muaythai roundhouse. Used it to some good extent for roundhouse kick to the waist and thighs, but I still reserve instep kicks to head and shin kicks to the thighs and calves.

Can someone share their views on this fashion of kicking?

[ShaolinTiger00]

kicking with the ankle...

chambering it like tkd but pushing it thru like mt..



sure..... sure....

:cool:

[lkfmdc]

I completely encourage you to use this method, especially if you ever plan on fighting any of my guys :cool:

[Fu-Pow]

Yeah I noticed that this works really well on the heavy bag too. You can transfer way more power like this. Also if you kick a little bit in the down direction.

[blooming lotus]

hmm... many ways to plant a sanda round. that'd be one....

also see blade, instep, ball, heel, toe clip for a small point strike, and did I miss any???

[SevenStar]

why would you use the blade or tip of your toe for a roundhouse?

[rubthebuddha]

cause self-mutilation is an entertaining pasttime.

[blooming lotus]

lol....... seen a few executed with top-side of foot and had similar thoughts myself



7*...did you find those Earle Montaigue dim mak charts ?? could you really not be that accurate or see the point???

[norther practitioner]

Earle Montaigue dim mak charts


Need I say more :D

[SevenStar]

Can I see the point of throwing a ROUNDHOUSE with the BLADE of my foot? No. A sidekick, perhaps, but not a roundhouse.

Can I see the point of throwing a ROUNDHOUSE with the tip of my toe? No. A front thrust kick, perhaps, but not a roundhouse.

[jungle-mania]

Look, I kid you not about this. Why don't you try kicking the bags for a start and see what I mean. I didn't believe it myself either at the start. Just execute any roundhouse but strike it with ankle area (make sure your toes are pointing down).

TRY IT FIRST, THEN POST ME A MESSAGE ABT YOUR EXPERIENCE.

[Shaolinlueb]

how about, raise knee, pivot foot, and kick.

clean simple, effective. nuff said :D

[omarthefish]

How 'bout step,don't bother pivoting, kick.

7*,

I think Jungle is confused about what he saw. I've watched a lot of Sanda guys coach people on their roundhouse and they actually **** near do kick with the ankle. It would be an easy mistake to make watching them. It's still the instep but a lot of them, in China at least, have learned to angle the kick downwards on impact like you often do in a MT round for extra 'dig'. But they still kick with the instep not the shin. So what ends up happening is they contact with really the OUTSIDE, the more radial part of the instep. It looks weird to me but that's how lots of them do it.

It's not the ankle but it sort of looks that way.

[blooming lotus]

firstly, from what I've seen personally, I believe Earle Montaigue to be a respectable makker and ma er in general.

7*, I'm probabbly calling it wrongly with terms, but to me a round covers inside and outside execution. I find they both have a purpose, and as far as I'm conerned, a variation's a variation and you can never have too many.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by omarthefish
How 'bout step,don't bother pivoting, kick.

7*,

I think Jungle is confused about what he saw. I've watched a lot of Sanda guys coach people on their roundhouse and they actually **** near do kick with the ankle. It would be an easy mistake to make watching them. It's still the instep but a lot of them, in China at least, have learned to angle the kick downwards on impact like you often do in a MT round for extra 'dig'. But they still kick with the instep not the shin. So what ends up happening is they contact with really the OUTSIDE, the more radial part of the instep. It looks weird to me but that's how lots of them do it.

It's not the ankle but it sort of looks that way.

I actually figured he meant the heel, not the ankle, but what you are saying makes perfect sense too. My comment wasn't toward him though, it was toward bl:

Originally posted by blooming lotus
hmm... many ways to plant a sanda round. that'd be one....

also see blade, instep, ball, heel, toe clip for a small point strike, and did I miss any???

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
firstly, from what I've seen personally, I believe Earle Montaigue to be a respectable makker and ma er in general.

7*, I'm probabbly calling it wrongly with terms, but to me a round covers inside and outside execution. I find they both have a purpose, and as far as I'm conerned, a variation's a variation and you can never have too many.

how would you deliver it with the blade or tip of the toe? try to describe it... I can't see that happening.

http://www.muaythai.com/En/Konmuay/Paklookthoy.html

Is this the kick you are referring to?

[jungle-mania]

I am afraid you are all wrong about my interpretation, I am talking about the area between the shin and the instep. Saying this, I am not saying this is the best way of striking, but it does have its merits in delivering power. I know this sounds really wierd, but this is how I was taught.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by SevenStar
how would you deliver it with the blade or tip of the toe? try to describe it... I can't see that happening.

http://www.muaythai.com/En/Konmuay/Paklookthoy.html

Is this the kick you are referring to?

not quite, and a round doesn't neccessarily need to be so high....because I'm bigger on point strikes, and some of those points need to struck with a small weapon ( like a knuckle, heel, toe, spear etc) in a certain direction, like outward in left to right etc etc, I find it useful. May never need it, but when it needs to got to at range.........???
Just might be able land it.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
not quite, and a round doesn't neccessarily need to be so high....

don't worry about the height - it's irrelevant. It's a round kick. apply it to any height you wish. since you say that's not quite it, find a pic of what you are talking about. I think you are talking about the same kick, only the instep should be flexed. I can see hitting with the heel or ball ofthe foot that way (although I'd never do it), but the blade or tip of the toe? No.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Can I see the point of throwing a ROUNDHOUSE with the tip of my toe? No. A front thrust kick, perhaps, but not a roundhouse. [/B]

Is that Dim Mak with your toe?

Front thrust should be with the ball of the foot or the heel.

[Starchaser107]

nobody watched that documantary with the okinawan karate guy that broke through thick boards with his toes?

anyhow unless you do some kind of iron body it's generally a bad idea to kick with your toes , because you might break them.
kick with the ball of your foot or your heel.
but since we're talking sanda roundhouse , i'd say kick with shin ankle instep whatever, just careful not to jam your toes.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Is that Dim Mak with your toe?

Front thrust should be with the ball of the foot or the heel.

there are okinawan styles - shorin is one of them, if I'm not mistaken - that advocate thrust kicks with the toe.

[SevenStar]

behold, the sokusen:

http://home.drenik.net/joemilos/bugeisha_uechi_2.htm

I took the following excerpt from another site:

"The snap front kick utilizes the sokusen (toe kick or tiger's tooth). This is the only kicking structure from the original Chinese art taught by Uechi Kanbun Sensei. As such, it reveals much about Uechi-Ryu combat theory: Uechi-Ryu is a system that stresses fast movements (the front snap kick is comparable to the boxing jab); it is a system that is concerned with striking points of anatomical vulnerability (the tiger's tooth penetrates cavities); it is a system that demands body conditioning of it's practitioners (the toe is ineffective if not conditioned); the system utilizes borrowing the energy of the opponent to grab and pull him into strikes "

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by SevenStar
behold, the sokusen:
.... it is a system that is concerned with striking points of anatomical vulnerability (the tiger's tooth penetrates cavities); it is a system that demands body conditioning of it's practitioners (the toe is ineffective if not conditioned); the system utilizes borrowing the energy of the opponent to grab and pull him into strikes "

I think it be a time better spent conditioning my fists, forearms, torso and shins. I'll leave the esoteric "Dim Mak toe" conditioning methods to other people.

[blooming lotus]

I considered your misunderstanding of qi and such concepts for a while last night. There is nothing esoteric about conditioning another body part as a weapon to begin with, but unless you understand the world vibrationally, you more than likely will not see the logic. I did study some charts last night though and tried to consider the individual points from your skeptics perspective. I think you'll find that the majority can be explained in smaller but definate physiological means. for example, quite often we're talking about striking specific points where particular tendon / organ feeding tissues meet and connect, or nerve cells and or corresponding do the same , producing an array of consequence....


take or leave it, I just like to ask q.'s and really know what I'm talking about either way in as much detail as I can ...no offence intended to those with differing understandings.......... as long you're working it well ..... continue on..........

[SevenStar]

striking vital points with various techniques is fine if you're into that sort of thing. but, there's no justifiable reason to throw a roundhouse with the toe, nor is there reason to use the blade. For small point striking with a roundhouse kick, your safest bet is the heel or ball of the foot. I know you can understand that. throwing a hard roundhouse and connecting with your toe will result in a broken toe. using a roundhouse with the toe or the blade are both praying for injury.

[blooming lotus]

I do , but obviously if your toe was a port of call you'd condition it....... do you remember the iron toe article Gene put up a while back??
a blade can also be effective in a sweep strike to point from distance.....
sometimes a heel is too big, and while it's an advantage to have an extra measure, you're all right.......It may not be worth time spent elsewhere..........


peace

[SevenStar]

when the heel is too big, use the ball of the foot. No quirky McLotus school toe roundhouses.

[ShaolinTiger00]

there are okinawan styles - shorin is one of them, if I'm not mistaken - that advocate thrust kicks with the toe.

ahh the peasants who went around barefoot their entire lives..

kick away with those toes gentlemen.. by all means..:)

[rogue]

When people say toe kicks they usually leave off that they are used sparringly and to certain areas.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I actually figured he meant the heel, not the ankle, but what you are saying makes perfect sense too. My comment wasn't toward him though, it was toward bl:

Noted.

But then for everyone elses benifit, if you are including crescent kicks, spinning back roundhouse kicks or front leg hook kicks, you should all know that they don't use those in Sanda.

[Suntzu]

Originally posted by omarthefish
Noted.

But then for everyone elses benifit, if you are including crescent kicks, spinning back roundhouse kicks or front leg hook kicks, you should all know that they don't use those in Sanda. some people use them...... some don't....

[omarthefish]

On the professional Sanda cicuit in China, no one trains those kicks.

I don't know what the American sport is like but professional Chiense Sanda schools do not have those kicks in the curriculum.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by SevenStar
when the heel is too big, use the ball of the foot. No quirky McLotus school toe roundhouses.

Mc nothing 7*.

I had your questions in mind over the last 5 days or so, and spent quite a bit of time training and studying my mak. Do you have Earles' charts or not?? He makes some great examples of particular points that are available best through only these means. I wrote then down, ( the points etc ) but it must be in my other ledger. He also has a couple of videos out for qigong iron shirt in defence and something else that I can't remember the title of. Don't worry, you nearly had me convinced otherwise myself, but I'm 99% sure that one particular round he metions'll knock the ball out of the knee socket when applied correctly in this way. That move I'd take, and would call relevant. Wouldn't you say?

[SevenStar]

Yes, I've looked at the charts. The point you are referring to is SP10.

Erle says that the point can't be struck well with the shin or instep. He then says:

"...it must be a more accurate weapon such as a HEEL or a FIST" he never mentioned striking with a toe roundhouse, only that it should be hit with a smaller weapon. that would imply, as I stated, the heel or the ball of the foot. you do not do a roundhouse with the toe.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I considered your misunderstanding of qi and such concepts for a while last night. There is nothing esoteric about conditioning another body part as a weapon to begin with, but unless you understand the world vibrationally, you more than likely will not see the logic.

What do you mean by understand the world vibrationally. Please define.


I did study some charts last night though and tried to consider the individual points from your skeptics perspective. I think you'll find that the majority can be explained in smaller but definate physiological means.

Are you referring to me?

for example, quite often we're talking about striking specific points where particular tendon / organ feeding tissues meet and connect, or nerve cells and or corresponding do the same , producing an array of consequence....

I don't question the effectiveness of pressure point striking, rather pressure point striking with your toe. Incidentally, traditionally the Chinese have no concept of nerves so what they call Qi manipulation is in effect nerve manipulation.


take or leave it, I just like to ask q.'s and really know what I'm talking about either way in as much detail as I can ...no offence intended to those with differing understandings.......... as long you're working it well ..... continue on.......... [/B]

I'll continue to not kick with my toe ....thank you very much. ;)

[lkfmdc]

This thread is amusing, in a depressing sort of way :rolleyes:

Omar, I wonder, you don't consider Liu Hai Long, considered China's greatest San Da champion, to be a San Da guy all of a sudden? I ask because he uses ax kicks and side hook kicks all the time.....

[omarthefish]

The stuff is not broadcast as much here as I would have thought it would be and now that I've got the name I'll fish around for some VCD's. My comment is NOT based on a thorough evaluation of ALL the Sanda camps here in China. You are one of the few people here who's probably seen and met more CHINESE NATIONAL Sanda fighters than I have. All caps because I want to emphasise the difference between American Sanda and PRC Sanda. The PRC is much more of a pro circuit from what I can tell. Fought in what looks like a boxing ring and I haven't even seen any scissor take downs like Cung Lee does over here. They seem to favor leg picks, double legs and I even saw a suplex in a Sanda vs. Karate exhibition bout.

I trained briefly at Zhao Chang Jun's school in Xi'an and have visited the Physical Education University where Ma Xian Da teaches. I was actually suprised to learn that he is not actually teaching Sanda, at least not currently. Watched assorted VCD's that are available here in the bookstores and I have never seem any of those kicks.

Actually....check that...I think I actually HAVE seen him but only photos...what weight category? Last months 'Jing Wu' magazine has Cheng Zhi Gang on the cover as the new champion at 85kg. I'll even do some guesswork with his name in Chiense to see if I can find him on the net after I', finished with this post.

I also am basing these comments on the monthly Sanda articles which come out describing techniques, training and combos. The ax kick I've seen.....RARElY. What I've seen a lot more, which can look like an ax kick from a still photo, is a stomp kick to the face. Spinning hook kicks are just too dangerous when you have such good takedowns included and lead leg heel hook kicks don't have the power necessary for full contact bouts. The only reason I believe you can get away with an ax kick is because the angle can often cause a knockdown.

I'll assume the 'Hai Long' = 'sea dragon'

Do you know if the 'liu' is the same as in Bajiquans Liu Yun Qiao?

[omarthefish]

ax kick in action by Liu Hai Long:

http://www.sinowushu.net/sql_ws/Article_Show.asp?ArticleID=273

Or is it a stomp to the face?

edit: Still looking ....unsucessfully for any evidence of those other kicks. But I DID find a photo of this really cool almost takedown:

http://sports.tom.com/img/assets/1/0807106.jpg

edit: I actually have Liu Hai Long's Championship fight on VCD already. I just didn't recognize the name. I'm going to watch it again and look for thsoe kicks.

[omarthefish]

Sorry to add yet another unreplied to post to this thread but I just finished re-watching Li Hai Long's championship bout with the heaviweight champ, Ren Yan Bing, who outweighed him considerably.

Not one single hook, ax or spinning kick in the entire match from either one of them.

There were only 3 kicks displayed in the whole match.

round house
stomp kick
side kick

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Yes, I've looked at the charts. The point you are referring to is SP10.

.

no it's a gb or possibly ( dammed wrong ledger .tommorow. Promise) a kd or cv.

if you can't f*ck em with fact baffle em with bs ha?? lol.... the language you use is not from any of his mauals I've seen. Do you have a different one?

Fu pow . no.. not you specifically but non qi- awarenesssors ( another bl coined piece of language ;) ) in general. By vibrationally , I mean on a level of quantum and and bio- physics. ..as in, everything vibrates at a certain frequency and speed, they all relate somehow and so on.

Chinese medicine today is absolutely aware of western superficial or yang ( matter based ) theories and structures. I agree that perhaps way back when they didn't, so how genius that their theories and therapies should intertwine so phiologically logically with what we know today!!

there are several ways to interrupt qi, from electrical strike, to blood flow or source strike, to water and organ strikes. Don't write them off because they speak funny ( or we do)... they are one of the oldest civilisations on earth and have been fighting and healing before the west became.

[blooming lotus]

okay, just retrieved ledger.

The point I was talking about was a gb. GB 31 - 33 ..... Just on the direct outside of limb + 1 cun up from st10, and he actually says " the strike must be accurate using a small weapon such as ball of the foot or a big toe."

liv 9 ( yin bao ) could be another possibility, and so could liv 11

then cv 17 if totally neccessary , because of the nature of the point, would also work, but because it would stop a heart, it's a dire reach, is absolute emergency failing all else.


Still think a toe strike is redundant??.........sweet as .... I think I'll just bear it mind though.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
no it's a gb or possibly ( dammed wrong ledger .tommorow. Promise) a kd or cv.

if you can't f*ck em with fact baffle em with bs ha?? lol.... the language you use is not from any of his mauals I've seen. Do you have a different one?

go to his site, download the chart in his free download section. Better yet, I'll put a link to it in a min.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
okay, just retrieved ledger.

The point I was talking about was a gb. GB 31 - 33 ..... Just on the direct outside of limb + 1 cun up from st10, and he actually says " the strike must be accurate using a small weapon such as ball of the foot or a big toe."

liv 9 ( yin bao ) could be another possibility, and so could liv 11

then cv 17 if totally neccessary , because of the nature of the point, would also work, but because it would stop a heart, it's a dire reach, is absolute emergency failing all else.


Still think a toe strike is redundant??.........sweet as .... I think I'll just bear it mind though.

okay, now read that part again.... with a big toe. Does it say a big toe with a roundhouse? I think not. If you look through the earlier parts of this thread, I stated that okinawan guys do a front thrust kick with the big toe. A roundhouse though? No, and you still haven't proved it wrong...

[SevenStar]

http://www.taijiworld.com/download/Point_Location.zip

[SevenStar]

This is from a different download of his:

Posterior and superior to the mastoid process, in the middle of the curved
line drawn from GB 9 to GB 11. Or an easier way to find it, is on a
horizontal line drawn at the level of the eyes that runs towards the back of
the head. The point is behind the ear on the squamosal suture which is the
joint between the parietal bone and the temporal bone of the skull.
Shocks the brain and affects the motor nervous system. Struck hard
enough will cause death in the most and KO in the least.


Are you really going to believe you're gonna kick that spot with a toe roundhouse? Accurately? Chances are you will hit a hard part of his skull and break your toe. I can see trying to hit a spot like that with a phoenix eye or something, but not a toe roundhouse.

[SevenStar]

here's a pic of gb10

http://pressurepointfighting.com/public_html/pointdiags/GB2.GIF

[SevenStar]

my bad - gb-31. same thing applies though - it's too probably you will break your toe on his shin as he blocks, or at the least jam it even if you hit him, at the quad is a tough muscle. are your toes conditioned enough to do it?

http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/train.html

in the above article, montaigue talks about striking that point with a hammerfist and palm strike and a knee, but never mentioned a toe.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus

then cv 17 if totally neccessary , because of the nature of the point, would also work, but because it would stop a heart, it's a dire reach, is absolute emergency failing all else.



pulled this from another of his articles:

"REPULSE MONKEY: Cheng-fu.

Slam the points on the inside of his wrist to affect the Qi, as your right palm slams downward onto CV 17. "

the only reference I've seen so far of montaigue using the toe to strike is a groin kick.

[blooming lotus]

7*: to begin I am really dissappointd that you splash the mak for all skilled or no to exploit or abuse ..........

moving on though: I'm not getting in to an on - line point strike viability conversation with you , but you get a little respect from me for your awareness or consideration regardless..


dude. we have some young and immature folks on board and I don't think it's aprpopriate to discuss kill points in detail here. pm me for further talks / debate if you like, but I refuse to load a gun I cannot monitor.....
as long as you've considered my arguement, combat logic and strategy thereafter is your own.

cheers 7*. props in earnest.......... cheers bro ;) :P

[SevenStar]

we're not talking about anything that's not already readily accessible - go to google, type in erle montaigue and bam - all of this info is waiting for anyone to look at. The type of things that he is talking about requires training - learning exactly where the points are, learning to strike them accurately and conditioning a limb to use them... I odn't think there's much worry that just anyone will be able to automatically do any type of damage at all with this info.

heck, it's hard enough for trained ma to effectively perform such techniques...

[blooming lotus]

yes it is 7 * and discussing it here with the masses isn't going to progress any of us, so lets just bi-pass it ha ;)

cheers 7 dude :P

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
knock the ball out of the knee socket when applied correctly in this way. The knee doesn't have a socket, it's a hinge joint. Unless your knee swivels 360 degrees, it means I'm not likely to take your advice on finer anatomical details like 'death' points.

LOL at the image of loads of backyard brawler teens suddenly offing each other with specific toe to half-inch wide target techs. These hormonal human windmills would be far more endangered by describing the mechanics of a decent choke or a thai roundhouse than giving them a map of the human body and saying 'x marks the spot'.

11% of Americans between the ages of 16-24 can't identify their own country on a world map: I'd like to see them read the words 'mastoid process' without moving their lips. (Apart from their president not speaking English.) If Erle Montaigue's site contains techniques for finding these spots with both hands and a flashlight and they actually manage it, let's call it natural selection.

'Idiot Dies Shock!'; don't see it making the newspapers.

Of course, I use these points all the time in full-contact, full-speed sparring, but fortunately all of my training partners signed a waver along with their organ donor cards so I haven't been prosecuted yet. BWUHAHAHAetc.

[blooming lotus]

it's a hinge joint ha??? :rolleyes: fair enough ...........what ever genius

[Brad]

A nice little fact page about knee dislocation: http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic145.htm
:)

[Toby]

Roflmao! Here we go again!

Fancy a read (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22knee%20joint%22%20hinge) Eyebrows?

[diego]

7* what about a roundhouse toe kick with steeltoes on?...haha

**** i thought i was shown a reverse roundhouse toekick-slip to the groin...but now i'm wondering if it was ball of foot!!?...it was like 6 years ago when my stepdad showed me it...gonna ask him

i remember he told me tho that his teacher was into toe and blade kick as a specialty orsomething and would put steel lining on the outside of the toe and blade of his steeltoe boots and go around and kick peeps in the face:)

sumthing sunthin...

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Toby
Roflmao! Here we go again!

Fancy a read (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22knee%20joint%22%20hinge) Eyebrows?

not really, but name a joint and tell me it's not one of either I mentioned.............

Ps: toe plant round in a steel cap 'd floor me ........ great point :p :D

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
... name a joint and tell me it's not one of either I mentioned...The knee joint. It's not a ball and socket joint. It's a modified hinge.

[blooming lotus]

a modified hinge is still a hinge......

name another.............

[Toby]

As Mat picked up, you said:Originally posted by blooming lotus
... knock the ball out of the knee socket ... There is no "knee socket". There is no ball. You ridiculed him for saying this and implied he was wrong in saying it's a hinge joint but *sigh*, you're wrong for a change.

[blooming lotus]

you yourself said it was a modified hinge......... I'm done chasing tails......... however you see it ( so as long as understand by your own logic). sweet as :cool:

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Mc nothing 7*.

I had your questions in mind over the last 5 days or so, and spent quite a bit of time training and studying my mak. Do you have Earles' charts or not?? He makes some great examples of particular points that are available best through only these means. I wrote then down, ( the points etc ) but it must be in my other ledger. He also has a couple of videos out for qigong iron shirt in defence and something else that I can't remember the title of. Don't worry, you nearly had me convinced otherwise myself, but I'm 99% sure that one particular round he metions'll knock the ball out of the knee socket when applied correctly in this way. That move I'd take, and would call relevant. Wouldn't you say? Is that loud enough for you?

You yourself said the knee has a ball and a socket.

Now which part of the following sentence do you not understand?

The knee joint does not have a socket or a ball.

[Brad]

Hinge Joint: http://www.shockfamily.net/skeleton/HINGE.JPG

Ball and Socket Joint: http://www.shockfamily.net/skeleton/BALLSOCK.JPG

:)

[SevenStar]

ttt

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
you yourself said it was a modified hinge......... I'm done chasing tails......... however you see it ( so as long as understand by your own logic). sweet as :cool:


Get a clue.

It's not modified by having a ball and socket added on.

Hip - ball and socket.
Shoulder - ball and socket.
Knee- NOT ball and socket.

No ball. No socket.

I can't believe this is being debated.

[blooming lotus]

I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that that is what I was saying :confused: ......... kinda gets confusing when you forget the information and just twist it to make a bad outta it ha??

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Toby
As Mat picked up, you said:There is no "knee socket". There is no ball. You ridiculed him for saying this and implied he was wrong in saying it's a hinge joint but *sigh*, you're wrong for a change.

then a few posts down I say about the knee joint

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
a modified hinge is still a hinge......

name another.............



Ps: in review of my posts, I think the day I posted information about the knee joint having a socket, I drank a full 450ml bottle of 56% proof local rice wine as a meet and greet adventure on arrival here. I can see the joint clearly in my head. I guess all trolling doesn't help focus on the topic a great deal ..........

sorry. Sue me, but it still fits the two generic categories outlined. In real life, we'd probably have a good exchange. Either way ,it's just a forum.

[Kaitain(UK)]

BL admits she had the incorrect. I can hardly believe it.

Now all you need to do is stop blaming it on other people or alcohol - just accept that sometimes the information you possess is either incorrect or outdated. Same as everyone else.

[blooming lotus]

:eek: :eek: you didn't just tell us that we have a common ground??!!??

[blooming lotus]

and I reconsidered my logic posting "knock the ball out its' socket", and though badly literated, I think I meant because the knee cap is ball-ish in appearance, but you're right, It was wrong. But back to the point GB and the strike I mentioned, It will knock the hinge from the cap and tear tedons connecting the upper and lower limbs of that leg being struck. Take or leave it, but I'm just going to remember that one in case needed .

[Kaitain(UK)]

It seems very high risk to me - I always prefer kicking with the shin or instep because it is a large surface area; I am more likely to hit the target. I also trained MT as my first art so my mechanics are better for that type of kick - I find if I'm trying to land the ball of my foot I give away a lot to tension.

A kick to the side of the knee on a weighted leg will screw the knee joint up regardless of what part of the foot is used. My understanding of it is that the bodyweight of the other person is what screws the joint, the kick just destabilises it.

[blooming lotus]

I understand, it's natural I guess, but he ( Earl ) specifically advises against an instep here because you need to be more accurate. Once you're familiar with points and the dynamic of how they work and relate, it's really an easy get and this particular point is a fave of many because it can be used in sanda tournies and is confine of the rule book. Also has no associated damage to more permanent systems . Kinda perfect really.

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
... I think I meant because the knee cap is ball-ish in appearance ...If by ball-ish in appearance you mean the same way that a disk that's flat on one side and has a sharp raised ridge on the other is ball-ish.

Eyebrows, I'm curious - is your dim mak master that taught you for a yr-ish Erle Montaigue? Makes sense. He was in northern NSW, wasn't he? That was almost your neck of the woods.

[blooming lotus]

no it started with GM . Po from melbourne, then went onto one of his students and ended and continue with Earles' Charts.

If you're interested, blitz magazine has some info on his seminars and courses regularly.

[Toby]

No, I'm not. It was just that you kept going on about him in this thread so I thought he might've been your teacher.

[blooming lotus]

didn't think so, but he's also done the sanda / ring circuit and I think he has valueable information at times. Take it or leave it ....

[Toby]

Thanks, but I'm happy with what I've got.

[blooming lotus]

so why don't we exclude the option for others?? As long as you're good to go Mr . benificent.

[Mr Punch]

Good, so now we've partly dealt with the facts, let's deal with the fancy.

I'm a firm believer in hitting pressure points. I'm fast, I'm accurate even under pressure, and let's face it, they're everywhere.

On a guy roughly my size, as a natural fuk sao to just under his jaw, I expect to be ringing a few bells... maybe he'll be vomiting, maybe he'll get vertigo, maybe he'll get KOed, maybe he'll just feel very very unpleasant for a while and allow me to beat the living chippolatas out of him. On a bigger guy, if I'm not too busy covering and trying to get inside/cut his corner I expect to hit pressure points even easier (yep, they're bigger!).

It's natural, cos an overhand/fuk will natural fit snugly into the right place, and in fact at the same time I may hit a bunch of stuff at the base of his bicep which'll slow that arm uup, not according to the next full moon but right now.

They are low percentage and not guaranteed to have an effect, but nice if you can chance one.

I do not believe you are going to be able to accurately toe-kick someone in a pressure point, under pressure, at speed. It's that simple. You can't prove it to me, but there's a possibility you'll say something intelligent to at least make me rethink my position.

I'm not holding my breath.

[Mutant]

a toe kick to the knee cap, or any other toe kick for that matter, would not be wise to try in ss/sanda. while your toes might be theoretically conditioned, so are a fighters legs. i can't imagine this sort of kick posing much of a danger, in fact many would invite you to try it. a stomp or side kick against the knee joint, on the other hand, would pose a danger, and this kind of technique are what the rules are there to protect against, although they would still be relatively low percentage against a decent fighter in my opinion. on the street, against someone who isnt expecting it, then thats a different story. and you'd probably want boots on if you were still intent on working that toe kick in somewhere. there are far more important, practical and relevant things to spend your time training than a toe kick.

as far as the tread topic, in my experience a sanda roundhouse is different from what the original poster described. while any sifu can slap a name on a technique and have it be known as that in his limited realm, it doesnt mean that its the same technique thats commonly being used in the sport. although even within the sport there are differences, it depends on the background being chinese ma or muay thai cross-over.

[blooming lotus]

no - one's talking about a kick to the knee - cap, in fact where the tendons and connective tissue meet is just a little higher with varied effect on both sides pending particular point and execution strike.

I don't know how it is for you, but becuase "I'm little and I'm a chick" I often tend to get underestimated combatually and that 1 -3 seconds they hesitateor contemplate for is ample for me to line up a point and execute exactly the strike I want . It may never be applicative for you in a ring nor life, but I like stay fresh on it, just in case.


do you undrestand me?? I'm cute and femme and a hard -core fight or competition is often the last thing my opponents expect...... just lucky I guess :( ;)

heart like stone, face like sugar :eek: :D :( :cool:

just a chick who learnt some jazz............... but can't overlook it, because talking now on combat psychology, any reason is a good one to get your opponent off guard...... half the game is strategy .you do what you must

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
no - one's talking about a kick to the knee - cap

you got the apostrophe right, but the hyphens are wrong...


I don't know how it is for you, but becuase "I'm little and I'm a chick" I often tend to get underestimated combatually and that 1 -3 seconds they hesitateor contemplate for is ample for me to line up a point and execute exactly the strike I want ...

..do you undrestand me?? I'm cute and femme and a hard -core fight or competition is often the last thing my opponents expect...... just lucky I guess :( ;)

I would doubt the people you have fought. Regardless, that's not an "advantage" you should grow to depend on.

[blooming lotus]

and still grammar and punctuation matters for martial prowess regarless of who's right?? :rolleyes:

I do plan for the hardest opponent, but just so happens, I rarely meet him/ her and if or when /I have, they were more concerned with my cute than my defence. I'm a little chick travelling the world looking for spirituality, academia and gongfu..... gotta know "something" about taking care of myself?? How many people do you fight really want to kill you?? Few, but it's good to have a defence right...worse comes to worse ( bad health and lack of opportuninty to train) and dimmak meets aikido usually covers me......... There're some weirdos out here.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Ps: in review of my posts, I think the day I posted information about the knee joint having a socket, I drank a full 450ml bottle of 56% proof local rice wine as a meet and greet adventure on arrival here. I can see the joint clearly in my head. I guess all trolling doesn't help focus on the topic a great deal ..........

sorry. Sue me, but it still fits the two generic categories outlined. In real life, we'd probably have a good exchange. Either way ,it's just a forum.

I don't want to tarnish the 'glory' of realizing you were dunk off yer ass and honestly admire the mea culpa but I just thought I'd point out that if it was rice wine, you'd probably have less of a headach the next day. That **** is made from SORGHUM!!! That's why it tasts so bad. I'm not sure what soghum is but I think in the west we only use it for cattle feed.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
and still grammar and punctuation matters for martial prowess regarless of who's right?? :rolleyes:


it does when you're an english teacher with a genius level IQ.

[blooming lotus]

I see your point :rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

No, you don't

[blooming lotus]

you're right. I lied.

( and yes I know I said I didn't lie on earlier post on some thread somewhere, but I think it counts if it's harmless ;) )