Intensity

[Oso]

So, this has been a big topic of late and I posed a question to Tainan on the other thread.



Tainan,

First off, I agree with what you say 100%.

What about the commercial US school? Right now I have a tues/thurs class as a newbie class and a wednesday night class as 'advanced'. On tues/thur I don't force the contact or intensity and make sure my wed night folks play nice. Still trying to build this thing.

My usual route is to make references to wed night and wait for someone to ask about it. Then I tell them that basically it's the same stuff but with a lot higher intensity...they can count on hurting by the end of the night.

Do you feel there is a difference between US schools and Asian schools as far as what the 'average' student will put up with?

I'll readily grant that most US people who even consider martial arts are driven by fantasy and that it is a very small percentage that will actually do what it takes (eat bitter) to become a good fighter.

Do we drive away the 99.9% who don't want to eat bitter?

As a teacher I have a long standing credo that I would rather take a bumbling oaf w/ two left feet and make even a mediocre fighter out of he/she than a student who walks in off the street ready to rumble and make a good fighter out of them. It takes far more effort to do the former.

Would we rather take a top percentage of people and make them only a small percentage better or do we want to try and make something accesible to everyone?

To borrow terminology from the restaurant industry I feel that you need 'front of the house' students and 'back of the house' students.

I think that there is a parallel for the 'inner door' students vs. the regular student here.




Oso,
A deep question likely deserving of its own thread.

I have to think a bit.
One point to ponder.

Sportsman in the US today are 100% full on intensity.
Their goal is easy to define; winning.

Think highschool football practice for a start.
Other team sports too.



So, I think most of us agree that intensity matters.

You can not become a fighter w/o training hard both for raw physical conditioning and then hard sparring.



Tainan,

No team starts off the season scrimaging at 100%. They do however quickly move to that level as most teams will have about a month before their first match.

I think an important distinction is the fact that on a team, football since that was your example, there are 11 people acting as a unit with each person having a fairly finite role to play. So, you can quickly bring that team up to standard because of simplifying the role each person plays.

So, I'm not sure that we can use a team standard in comparison to developing a solo fighter.


How long should it take to develop a mantis fighter capable of fighting full contact?

Should every student who walks in the door be told "All or nothing"?


Here is the sparring standard I have used until recently.

Speed-----Contact-----Sash Level

Slow---------Touch-----Yellow---6-12 months
1/4------------1/4-------Green---12 - 24 months
1/2------------1/2-------Blue-----24 - 36 months
3/4------------3/4-------Brown---36 -48 months
Full------------Full-------Black-----48 - 60 months

It has always been important to me to stress control to minimize injuries at higher contact levels.

Control to me is doing exactly what you want when you want to.
Not just 'not hurting' someone.
Early on some targets were simply 'illegal' :knee, throat, eyes, spine.
Later these target areas were assigned the fractional values for contact as students control level got better.
So, at the 1/2~1/2 level a blue sash would be able to target those areas at touch contact providing they had demonstrated they could actually attack at 1/2 speed yet not crush their partners windpipe.

Additionally, little to no equipment was used.

Currently I am working out how to get people to at least the 1/2~1/2 level by the end of the first year.

0 ~ 6 months

Given that most of the student who walk through my doors are in below average or worse shape I am spending the first 6 months 'whipping' them into shape.

I'm utilizing a plyometric/interval training routine for the first 15 minutes of class followed by the Pong Lai warmup routine followed by stance training for 8 minutes total. This is about 40~45 minutes total of just physical conditioning.

From there we start working the hand drills, tan tui's, LFH, kicking and so on. TT and LFH solo and 2 person of course.

6 ~ 12 months

Pretty much kind of just jumping right in to free sparring.

I've had basic discussion 'lectures' where we've gone over gate theory, ranges as equated to weapon (foot=long, knee=med, hip=short) and all along I've been talking about specific movements from the drills/forms and what their basic application is. And stressing flow.

And so, I am then sparring with each of my students in turn. Right now at just about 1/4~1/4. It's a stop and go situation right now as I stop to show and explain and then continue. The other students are of course watching.

With only a good 12 students or so I only have 4 that fall into this group right now. So, it's manageable in this format.

Right now we are only really using groin prot, mouth pieces & mma gloves. I have already purchased a variety of different headgear and chest protectors for future use and everyone knows that's where we are headed.




Now, that I've bored you all to tears, I'll attempt to bring things back to the top.

Is it not ok to let the student who is just not comfortable or desirous of the higher contact level continue to learn and progress in the form/drill work if that is their wish?

I hope to be able to do this full time within the next 3 years. I know that I will not be able to do this if every student is made to go at that level of intensity. I'm lucky now that most of my students seem to have that goal in mind though a few of them don't quite realize what it really means yet. There is just no way to reach 50+ students with that standard for sparring. Or, for Pong Lai, a high standard of contact on the hand drills and two person sets.

[Tainan Mantis]

Oso,
You didn't bore me, but there is too much info to swallow in one post.

Also, I can see that our philosophy to teaching differs somewhat, if I understanad what you have written.

But before I go into that.

I'll talk about the goal a student will need before they can whole heartedly apply bone numbing intensity.

Belts have become a popular goal in the modern era.
Some of us don't like them while some use them grudgingly as a way to keep the students motivated.

Is there an other motivational tool besides belts(I hope so)?

Well, going back to the football analogy.

Kids grow up with the culture of the sport. In the US one of the big sports is football.
So they have a good idea of what they are getting into when they join the school team..

But, for MA the percieved reality is only what we see in movies or maybe on those big wreslin shows with prearranged outcomes.

It seems that your dream, like me, is to prepare students to enter the ring and fight.
For me this isn't the end of the road, but a good stage to pass thru in MA training.

Anyway, there isn't much culture of MA fighting competitions in the US.

So, as a shrfu who would like to see that change it becomes partially your responsibility to improve that culture.

[Tainan Mantis]

I will take nothing less than 100% intensity.

So if they can not fight with 100% intensity they don't fight.

Some examples of how this is applied.

Before throws can be executed the students must be experts at falling, rolling and all the methods of getting on and off the mat.
This is a hour long class just for falling alone.

Not even going into all the time spent on learning the drills for the various throws and counters.

Before you can kick or punch a student they must already be used to getting hit.
That is why there is kao da.

You notice that when kao da is started it is just pounding the arms.

The bones of the arms must be strengthened for 2-3 months before you can start seroius punching drills.

Even longer for the kicking drills.

There are kao da for hitting the body itself, such as striking the chest, stomach, ribs, head etc.

These areas will become strong and then you can do sparring.

So there should be a step by step progressive methodolgy where 100% intensity never needs to be sacrificed.

If at some point intensity is sacrificed, maybe you have to ask yourself,
" what stage of training have we left out?"

Then there is the actual sparring itself.
The progression I have put up on some of my clips. I think you can fill in the holes.

It is not like,
"Ok, start sparring folks."

There is the straight punch drill to the chest.

There is the hook punch drill to the head.

Then there is the beginning of the unknown.
Will he attack with a straight or hook.
I must build me ability to deal with the situation.

Then add on from there step by step.

After the student can handle a finite number of techniques their ability to deal with unknown techniques increases.

I haven't even started talking about the different type of defensive stratagies, but I think you get the picture.

I don't mention forms here.
That is another story.
They are needed in training, but I think that using the form as a device to win competitions based on appearances is not the intention of what forms were for.
And , to me, serves to distort the picture of what MA training is about.
But, that is probably another thread too.

[Oso]

Tianan, one quick question (as I have spent far too much time on here today at work).

So, 100% as soon as possible within given training standards.
Right?

What about the person that just doesn't want to go that hard?

Let's say that they max at at wanting no more than 75% of full contact yet they perform very well at or below that intensity level.

will return to this later, after work and before class.


thanks !

[German Bai Lung]

Top Topic!

This will bring some good points out.

Okay, I see now what Kevin is doing and his philosophy. But does that means any other philosophies are wrong or less worthy?

For example Oso´s points: he wants to think about teaching all who wants to get in touch with Kung Fu. Also if ones will not become a fierce fighter! I´m with him in that point. It´s up to the student to choose the way but at some point a teacher must show him thats maybe a dead end!

Another Point Kevin: you said, first there must be Kao Da and endless Drills for getting used to get hit. Okay, I´m with you with that, but I like to let the student train also tactics, distance, etc at the same time with kao da. And I call that training Light Contact fighting.

Whats wrong with fighting from the first day of training? As long if you got a partner who can control intensity and the techniques (like you showed in your vid-clip!) there will be all the benefits we talking about.

A little example:
I got a female student (now for a little bit more than one year). She was everytime afraid of getting hit, also at drills and applications. We do some kao da as well and it only gets a little bit better.
Now on first may we got a great competition of kung fu. I told her to do some forms AND fighting. First she wants only to compete in forms but than she´d agreed.
On the tournament day she make some good fights and suddenly she stand in the final: against a very good and experienced woman. That woman was fierce and without mercy. (Like Kevin ... hehe) My student lost and get hit very hard and very often. Tears were running after the fight and she was shocked about the pain and brutality!

I told her: well done, you did a great fight against a brown belt! You lost but you are still alive. No broken bones, no blood. You could be proud of you. She laughed and was indeed proud.

From this day on, she is not afraid of getting hit or hitting herself harder than before! It could have been years of kao da and drills to get her to this point!

I also hope not to bored you to tears like Oso (Of course you do not, man! :p )

[shirkers1]

I was "lucky" enough to get into a "basement school" as I like to call it. So you constantly had a core group of around 8 guys. The guys who wanted to do it stuck around and the guys who couldn't hang with the intensity of the training were weeded out. Everyone involved continued to grow with the style because they weren't being held back by a belt system or guys who were just showing up and not giving it their all.

If you want to learn praying mantis then I feel that you should train how the style is meant to be trained. Praying mantis IS intense and requires a lot of two man sensitivity training. Sure you need to have a basic foundation but two man training should always be a part of the training. I have monday night basics, stances, footwork, basic hands, 14 ways etc. Wednesday 14 ways, and mostly 2 man and focus mit drills, and of coarse more footwork. Friday is more advanced 2 man and whatever we kind of feel like doing at the time.

I teach to teach.... I don't do it as a source of income. So I refuse to water anything down just to keep students in. You have to want to do praying mantis, if it's to hard or to intense then you should move on to another less intense style. I'd rather have 2 guys that I know do it everyday and give their all, than being paid by a hundred kids/students that are just doing it to say they take kung fu or parents dropping their kids off for some baby sitting classes.

I train everyday, I try to surround myself with students who have the same or close to the same drive.

[Oso]

shirkers1,

so, you feel that the poeple that can't hang don't deserve the opportunity to train and better themselves even if it doesn't meet with your opinion of what the ideal is?

[German Bai Lung]

To shirker:

what is wrong about having 100 students who can learn only a little bit Kung Fu like they want it and make it possible with their paying that 5 People can learn the style like it meant to be?
Nothing.

And: When you lock out people in their first year ´cause they don´t want to train that hard, do you know if they don´t want it maybe a year later? Are they people second class, just because they don´t know what they want from our style right now? No.

Everyone should have getting his chance to learn at least a part of the system if they want to.

[mantis108]

I think this is yet another superb quality thread on kung fu training.

I am very impressed with Oso's post. It shows a tangible time table. At the same time there is a consideration for the would be warriors. Tough, there is a strong sport feel to it. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with that. I am also very glad to see Tainan landscaping the traditional methodology and the philosophy of full intensity. GBL gave a very good example of turning a novice of uncertainty to a step closer to the final goal. She is definately well on her journey, which is one that I can relate to from my own experience dealing with students.

In a sense, I believe that your students' ability is crafted in your own image. Your vision will more or less determine their views and understandings of Kung Fu and subsequently their practice attitude. This is particularly true when your school meets with other schools in competitions or real life confrontations. I think that MA teachers should provide a correct preception of MA reality. That is to say student should learn problem solving in which case is fighting. They should learn the truth about fighting, the whole true and nothing but the truth. The truth that is not dictated by other people's ideas but the reality of the clear and present individual situation. If they took kung fu and decided that it is too rough and tough and they can't stand it, then so be it. Yet, if they see the harsh reality as only a small obstacle to overcome, then help them by all means. Sometime, helping them to understand the value of cruel to be kind is necessary. If you understand the student's need and potential, I believe you are obligated to do your best to help him/her to realize that. I think we as teachers (not masters) should be mindful of the potential and the interests of the students.

Intensity comes from combat courage (yong). Yong is based in conditioning that is born of skills and martial fitness. There are many approaches to achieve Yong. Wether the teach approach is fast pace or timed, it is not of great importance. What is important is that you as the teacher give it the best in showing intensity/yong (condition that you are in and skill is part of the equation). You set the tone and the standard for your student assembly. In layman's term, you work hard and you students will work hard (Kung Fu) from your example.

All in all, be the best that you can be (kinda pun intended). ;)

Mantis108

[shirkers1]

Oso You can tell when a student is trying and when he's slacking. When I work with a student I go as hard as he goes, sometimes I'll step it up a little to see if he can hang. So that he can progress. But If he isn't training on his own and pushing himself then he's never going to progress. So why should I back off my training so that he can just show up and go through the movements with out really learning or growing? It's not about opinions, beginners aren't thrown to the lions they are brought along slowly. But they have to show they are willing to learn and give it 100%. Sorry if my opinions don't match yours but that's all it is..... my opinion.

Bai Like I said I have the basement school mentality. I'd rather have 2 or 3 good students who I know work hard and train hard, who are willing to give it 100% then 100 students that I know are just going through the motions so I can take their money to the bank. If you have 100 students that show up and want to learn and give 100% then great!!!! But why give them a watered down tai bo version of praying mantis if they can't handle the intense side of the training? Praying mantis isn't for them.

Now without going into details about how I train, I'm not saying I beat the crap out of my guys to see if they can take it. It's not about that at all. Like I said you can see when a student wants to learn and works at it.

I refuse to water down my training. You can back off and still know the student is giving it his all so he can progress. It doesn't make anyone more or less of a man if they can't take it. You just bring them along slowly until they are conditioned properly. Unless they show that they aren't willing to work at it then they should move on. Like I said it's just my opinion.

Now I'm talking about those guys/kids that show up and don't pay attention, don't work out on their own, don't push themselves to learn. These are the people I don't want around. If I was in it for the money then I wouldn't mind having these kind of students. But I'm in it for the simple fact that I need people to work out with as well. So my students should have the same drive as me. It's a basement school not a business. That's the way the old timers did it. They took on a full time student and believe me they had to prove they wanted the training. If they couldn't handle it then they would have to move on.

[Oso]

Oso You can tell when a student is trying and when he's slacking. When I work with a student I go as hard as he goes, sometimes I'll step it up a little to see if he can hang. So that he can progress. But If he isn't training on his own and pushing himself then he's never going to progress. So why should I back off my training so that he can just show up and go through the movements with out really learning or growing? It's not about opinions, beginners aren't thrown to the lions they are brought along slowly. But they have to show they are willing to learn and give it 100%. Sorry if my opinions don't match yours but that's all it is..... my opinion.

Thanks for the reply.

Just to address the above paragraph for now....

I agree, students need to put 100% into their training. If they are not trying as hard as they can then, yes, they are slacking.

But, wouldn't you say that "100%" is subjective?

I believe that there is a base aptitude for this stuff. Not everyone can do it at the same level. I just feel that if you can see that a student is giving 100% for them then that's all you can ask.

Your example of matching then stepping up a bit to bring your student with you is just the way I do it.

In reading further in your post I think you probably aren't as hard ass as your first post seems to indicate.

and we are all, surely, just expressing our opinions here. :)

[shirkers1]

Oso Exactly, I'm glad you see that. I'm really not a hard ass at all. The guys I work out with thoroughly enjoy class that is why they keep comming back. : )

I really didn't want to get into how I teach or my entire training methods so you guys kind of got the wrong idea at first I think. I love praying mantis kung fu and I love to teach. I enjoy having passionate guys to work out with as well. My doors are always open, I just want students who are willing to work at it and not waste my time, that's all.

thanks for the feedback

[German Bai Lung]

Originally posted by shirkers1
I love praying mantis kung fu and I love to teach. I enjoy having passionate guys to work out with as well. My doors are always open, I just want students who are willing to work at it and not waste my time, that's all.


Yupp, thats probably what all teachers want! But those students are hard to find!

[shirkers1]

bai I have 7 students who generally love what we do as well. These guys call me up on off days wanting to work out so I'm happy with who I have now. I'm looking for maybe 2 or 3 more guys and that's it.

I'm actually dreading having to find an actual studio to teach out of because then I'll have to charge the guys just to pay the rent. We're fine in my house I have plenty of room but if I were to get too much larger I'd have to rent a place. I would love to be able to live off of teaching but I would never want to become what we've been talking about and in it for the money.

I hope you have as dedicated students as I have. Then you would be as lucky as I am to enjoy teaching mantis.

[Oso]

Belts have become a popular goal in the modern era. Some of us don't like them while some use them grudgingly as a way to keep the students motivated.

Is there an other motivational tool besides belts(I hope so)?


That's a tough one too.

Currently I don't have sash rank in my adult class but do not see a way to avoid it in a kids class.

the rank structure I showed was from my previous teacher.

When I first started teaching 3 years ago I was offering the sash ranks to adults but when I started working w/ you guys I had a talk with my adults and not a single one of them had a problem with the concept of not ever being a 'black sash'.

'motivation' : so far I've gotten folks who are indeed interested in the training for training's sake so that isn't an issue for me. I hope as a teacher I am able to motivate enough through class structure and such....so far so good.

Kid's: well, I think if you're going to teach kids less than teenaged then you need so compete w/ the other schools offering kids programs. So, far the only concession I'm making is the sashes. My kids (all 3 of them) train kung fu. They do a shorter version of the warmup and spend less time in stances but they do the same routine and the exact same progression of material...they just get to put a shiny yellow sash on now.


Well, going back to the football analogy.

Kids grow up with the culture of the sport. In the US one of the big sports is football.
So they have a good idea of what they are getting into when they join the school team..

But, for MA the percieved reality is only what we see in movies or maybe on those big wreslin shows with prearranged outcomes.


I agree. I thought you were referring to a more direct comparison of training between football and martial arts.


It seems that your dream, like me, is to prepare students to enter the ring and fight.


Basically, I want to prepare my people to fight. In or out of the ring.

The ubiquitous reason of 'self defense' accounts for the largest percentage of people to walk into a martial arts school. The problem there is the perception they have of kung fu being the oh so deadly art of Count Dante, Bruce Lee or heaven forbid, the sacharine version portrayed by Carradine. Realizing that kung fu takes hard work ;) stops a lot of people from continuing. And I don't chase those people begging for them to come to class. But I do want to keep every person that does want to work hard irelevant of their aptitude. It's my 'job' as a teacher to cultivate everyone who wants to try.

I do want to make it an option for any student of mine to fight at whatever level they wish from Continuous Light Contact to Full Contact. I really only have 2 or 3 that are willing right now but I'm fine with that number out of just 12-15.


For me this isn't the end of the road, but a good stage to pass thru in MA training.


agreed, age takes it's toll after a while. I'm hating that I didn't have the option to compete and fight while I was in my 20's. So, now I have to do it and try and stay in one piece at almost 37.


Anyway, there isn't much culture of MA fighting competitions in the US.


not yet, but UFC and other MMA events are changing that. And I think we need to pay heed to some of what's happening there or we will lose out in the end.


So, as a shrfu who would like to see that change it becomes partially your responsibility to improve that culture.


Absolutely.

[Oso]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
I will take nothing less than 100% intensity.

So if they can not fight with 100% intensity they don't fight.

Some examples of how this is applied.

Before throws can be executed the students must be experts at falling, rolling and all the methods of getting on and off the mat.
This is a hour long class just for falling alone.



indeed, if not months



Not even going into all the time spent on learning the drills for the various throws and counters.

Before you can kick or punch a student they must already be used to getting hit.
That is why there is kao da.

You notice that when kao da is started it is just pounding the arms.

The bones of the arms must be strengthened for 2-3 months before you can start seroius punching drills.

Even longer for the kicking drills.

There are kao da for hitting the body itself, such as striking the chest, stomach, ribs, head etc.

These areas will become strong and then you can do sparring.

So there should be a step by step progressive methodolgy where 100% intensity never needs to be sacrificed.

ok, trying to make sure I understand what you are saying.

in the beginning is the arm banging.
are you saying that this should immediately be done at 100% ?

right now I'm getting people to learn the movement with no more force put into it then they want to put into it. I feel that for someone who has never done anything at all this is enough for the first month or so. Then once I work with them and see that they have good flow, I take them up with me.

then I sick my 14 year old, Michael on 'em. this guy got hard all of a sudden this spring. :)

so, with a brand new person I give em a month to break in before either I or a senior student start putting some bruises on them.


If at some point intensity is sacrificed, maybe you have to ask yourself,
"what stage of training have we left out?"

understood

Then there is the actual sparring itself.
The progression I have put up on some of my clips. I think you can fill in the holes.

It is not like,
"Ok, start sparring folks."

There is the straight punch drill to the chest.

There is the hook punch drill to the head.

Then there is the beginning of the unknown.
Will he attack with a straight or hook.
I must build me ability to deal with the situation.

Then add on from there step by step.

After the student can handle a finite number of techniques their ability to deal with unknown techniques increases.

I haven't even started talking about the different type of defensive stratagies, but I think you get the picture.


I think so. Looking forward to hearing more. Not closed to learning a different approach by any means. Just working with what I've figured out over the years.

I still feel there needs to be a progression for the brand new students who are 'average' which I feel these days is really below 'average' in physical ability.

right now, if I let that 14 year old go as hard as he wanted to with the brand new woman he would hurt her and she would not be back. I would also put Michaels arms up against any untrained adult male that walked in. hell, last week he worked over a 30 some year old that has some training and left him bruised and rubbing his arms. Pong Lai works !!


I don't mention forms here.
That is another story.
They are needed in training, but I think that using the form as a device to win competitions based on appearances is not the intention of what forms were for.
And , to me, serves to distort the picture of what MA training is about.
But, that is probably another thread too.

probably, :D

[GermanMantis]

Originally posted by German Bai Lung


Yupp, thats probably what all teachers want! But those students are hard to find!

really :D

[Mika]

My knowledge of Mantis amounts next to nothing, so take whatever I have to say with that in mind.
Teaching, though, is more or less universal, at least for the most part, so I think I could offer my point of view.

I can see the pros and cons of "both parties" here (not trying to box anyone, I am merely saying that to use a certain approach). They are very close to each other the way I see it.

Core similarities: both love to teach dedicated students
Core differences: one party teaches other kinds of students as well, the other party doesn't.

OK. There is no better way to do this. This issue has a lot to do with regional culture, the personality of the teacher, the teachings passed on, the setting, the availability of martial arts in the area, and about 100 other factors. Taking all of them into account would require a research paper, so...;)

Shirkers, in your situation it would be very difficult to take on students that aren't serious. Space alone is a limiting factor.

As stated, all teachers are looking for a serious student. But as also stated, it is sometimes difficult to tell if a student is serious. How long should you wait? Your call...
But waiting long is no crime. You might save someone's life by allowing him or her to stay on even if that person clearly isn't serious. But you never know, he or she might turn around somewhere along the line. Sometimes it takes time for a person to find him- or herself. Martial arts can be much more than just a hobby. It is easier to dig deep with martial arts than with many other activities, IMHO.

And even if the person never does take the art seriously, whose loss is it? Certainly that person is not going to open up a school (okay, I admit, this is a possibility, albeit a remote one...), so the art itself is not going to be watered down. And with kids, it is virtually impossible to tell how they are going to be like in a few years' time.

I think discipline is of some importance here, too. If people come to a school to only see each other and talk about the latest movies, it would be hard for the very serious students to focus on what they do.
So, in the right setting, the not-so-serious students would still learn to respect the art and those who are dedicated to it and the serious students would have all the chances they need to focus on what they do. In this kind of setting the true slackers would not feel comfortable very long.

Also, in my teaching experience, the students who have been serious since day one - and some even said so the first day and some even said they wanted to teach even before the first practice session - have been the ones to drop out first. That has happened 100% of the time. Not one of the students who claimed to be serious stayed long. Not one. Many others did. So, I am glad I gave them the chance.

When it comes to applications and fighting, everyone should have the same opportunities. It's how they use those opportunities that counts. If someone doesn't want to go hard, I don't think he or she should have to. But he or she will see how it's done. So, everyone knows what it's really like and the art still stays pure.

Think of it like this: you cannot teach a 5-year old the same material as you would teach a 25-year old. And you definitely cannot go as hard with both. But you still teach them both, right? Well, some adults just stay at that 5-year old level and some move on. Very simple :)

But when you have no time, space or desire to mess around, you shouldn't. Teaching only serious students is a good thing. And so is teaching everyone.

Yin and Yang, no better, no worse, just different :)

//mika

PS. This is a little OT, but Oso, I had a student about 2 years ago (when I was still living in the US) from Asheville who had studied Nothern Kung Fu there. I cannot remember which style it was, but how many Northern schools can there be in a city the size of Asheville...;)
Beautiful city, btw :)

[Tainan Mantis]

Oso said,
"What about the guy who doesn't want to train that hard?"

That question you have to ponder.
I think you can determine an answer when you now where you want to go with your school.
Where you want it to be 5-10 years from now.

My opinion is that you should remember your student days.

As a student what do you want?

If you truly remain true to yourself then that means that the school you create is the kind that you would want if you came back as a reincarnated OSo.

More later...

[Oso]

mika, great post.

Your old student would have probably been at one of 3 schools.

Yes, 3 ! The other battle I have is that in a county of only 275k people, there are 27 MA schools listed in the yellow pages, another handful of commercial schools not listed and who knows how many working underground...3 that I know of.

The only groups more prolific in Asheville are hippies and gays/lesbians. :p

Anyway, his instructor would have been either Moran, Cummings or Small.

Yes, it is a great small city.

[Oso]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Oso said,
"What about the guy who doesn't want to train that hard?"

That question you have to ponder.
I think you can determine an answer when you now where you want to go with your school.
Where you want it to be 5-10 years from now.

My opinion is that you should remember your student days.

As a student what do you want?

If you truly remain true to yourself then that means that the school you create is the kind that you would want if you came back as a reincarnated OSo.

More later...

5-10 years from now I want to be sitting in a chair smoking cigarettes and throwing shuriken at my students when they fall out of ma bu.

:D


just kidding, I'll never smoke.




I think I have to differ here.

Creating a school based on what I wanted as a student (still want in my role as a student) would only be accessible to a smaller percentage of people.

I would, of course, love to have a school full of 20 - 30 year old athletes who all came early and stayed late, got up and did an hour of stance training every day and ran 3 miles before they went to bed.

But, that's unrealistic.

I don't think that a true passion for kung fu is limited to the physically adept.

I will build a school that allows for both types of students. And maybe some of them won't look as polished or dynamic but the only thing that matters to me is how they look and feel when they occasionally break through that wall and really feel what it's like to do this thing we do.

I don't consider it all that great a thing to teach someone who picks up Little Four Hands the first time they see it. I didn't do that much as a teacher in that case.

It's the student who, after weeks of trying to get it, finally gets it that gives me the greatest satisfaction as a teacher. I've worked harder to teach and coach them towards a goal.

The harder you work, as a student and as a teacher, the greater the prize.

[Tainan Mantis]

Oso,
So, it seems that you have strong feelings about what you want your school to be.
That is good.
How you will balance intensity with that is something I think you realize since you are putting so much thought into it.

As far as starting out a beginner on arm pounding you have to make some decisons.

Does everyone have to do it?
If not then are you willing to make another class that stresses other aspects of MA training?

If every one has to do it then you can pair up 2 beginners or you can go with the beginner yourself.

Of course you can't hit him with all your might, but you can show him how to hit you that way.

But at some point there comes a time where the student will be in the position to get hit in the head.
If they can't handle it they will possibly quit.
Unless you are such a powerful motivational speaker.

I like to get that student in that position as soon as possible so that they can see where we are going.

Sometimes a good stage before head hits is takedowns.
It is a similar type of shock, but a little easier to conttrol in training.

Just food for thought.
The scope of the question is beyond what can be written here.

[Oso]

As far as starting out a beginner on arm pounding you have to make some decisons.

Does everyone have to do it?
If not then are you willing to make another class that stresses other aspects of MA training?


I think that they do to some extent.
In addition to the conditioning I love these drills as teaching tools for basic punching and deflecting/blocking and so in the beginning weeks of training the focus I've put on them is that vs. the conditioning. Once the mechanics are understood then we gradually step the pace up.


If every one has to do it then you can pair up 2 beginners or you can go with the beginner yourself.


usually I pair a more advance student or myself so that the new student can be guided through the movement.


Of course you can't hit him with all your might, but you can show him how to hit you that way.

But at some point there comes a time where the student will be in the position to get hit in the head.
If they can't handle it they will possibly quit.


right, I will hit them in the head the first time myself. w/ gloves and headgear first and in the context of of one of the drills...wai gua shou is great for hitting students in the head...and I tell them ok, you're going to get hit now. So far no quitters.


Unless you are such a powerful motivational speaker.


dunno about that...I do make sure there is plenty of dialogue.

One speech I give is about realizing what you (the student) are going to go with kung fu and if you are going to be a hobbyist or a fighter.

I guess that's a good way to describe the difference as I see it.

The hobbyist is going to be able to do the forms well and know some application and maybe spar some but may not ever feel like they want to get a broken nose or lose a tooth.

The fighter will fight. And I'll be the first person they fight with at higher contact levels.

I guess I could potentially lose some people by telling them this but I also stress that it's ok just to be the hobbyist, just keep the ego in check and don't go around thinking that as a hobbyist, they are some sort of kung fu hero because if you don't fight then you don't KNOW.


I like to get that student in that position as soon as possible so that they can see where we are going.


agreed, I do this first by utilizing my senior students for demo and they get popped.


Sometimes a good stage before head hits is takedowns.
It is a similar type of shock, but a little easier to conttrol in training.


100% agree there. We do falling from the start. First from the knees as they are learning form (i utilize japanese style breakfalls) and then from standing and then they get swept.

Just food for thought.
The scope of the question is beyond what can be written here.

very much appreciated, thanks for your time.

[German Bai Lung]

Originally posted by Oso

I guess I could potentially lose some people by telling them this but I also stress that it's ok just to be the hobbyist, just keep the ego in check and don't go around thinking that as a hobbyist, they are some sort of kung fu hero because if you don't fight then you don't KNOW.


Well, Oso it seems that we are brothers in mind:
one month ago I got discussions with several students at varying time. All the same points: how to get better, how to become real tough fighters, how to learn quick the whole style.
So I saw me forced to pick all up and told them just exactly what you are writing: you can be hobbist and train 1-2 times a week or I show you the way to more and you get involved with the style for everyday! May it be 4 times a week in the school or at home but better both!

Well, it was going very quiet in the traininghall, I can tell ya! :D

[Oso]

GBL, nope two days a week doesn't cut it.

Got real frustrated this past spring when I realized that part of the issue with my students is that I wasn't offering enough time.

Tried to look at finding my own space but can't afford it on just 12-15 students.

Tried to get more time in the community center but bloody square dancers and garland dancers have the rest of the week booked up. LOL, entertained a fantasy of challenging the dancers to a fight for the space :p just a joke in my own head.

So, I had to quit my jujitsu training, which was on the same nights as my kung fu classes so I could make my classes longer. Still only 3 nights a week and sometimes on saturday. It's payed off though in just 2 months time I can see a big difference in my students because of the longer classes. hopefully in the future I can expand to 4 nights of 3 hours each.

personal training fluctuates though. And I think it's hard to go 4-5 days a week ALL the time if you have any other responsibility. I think a few months at a time of 4-5 days then maybe a month of just a couple of days to give the body some recover time then swing back up to 4-5.

[German Bai Lung]

Thats exactly the problem I got in the past! Training 2-3 times in a sportshall! Basketballers before and after! Urgs ...

Now I got my own school (and no own live) and can offer 4 times a week training for 1,5-2 hours! And on two additional days free training at the school.

So some guys are at school indeed every day and some once per months! But like I said before: they pay for the guys, who do their training every day!
And like you said, most of the people really boost up their skills in a very short time! For that I am more than willing to teach as much hobbyists as can be!

[SevenStar]

First off, AWESOME topic.


To address your timeline:

Originally posted by Oso


0 ~ 6 months

Given that most of the student who walk through my doors are in below average or worse shape I am spending the first 6 months 'whipping' them into shape.

I'm utilizing a plyometric/interval training routine for the first 15 minutes of class followed by the Pong Lai warmup routine followed by stance training for 8 minutes total. This is about 40~45 minutes total of just physical conditioning.

From there we start working the hand drills, tan tui's, LFH, kicking and so on. TT and LFH solo and 2 person of course.


This is where sport fighitng tends to differ in terms of "efficiency" we spend the class time whipping you into shape also - that's a part of every class, no matter what level you are. our classes are rather long, so our calesthenics are usually closer to 30 mins. In addition, all of the drilling keeps your heart pumping.

As for sparing, we will do it within this stage - you will be actively drilling from day one. the drilling aids in perfecting your technique, and corrections are made as necessary. the drills will progress - simple parrying, countering, offense only, defense only, etc. - by three months you are ready to put on pads and mix it up. by that time, you have thrown your techniques several thousand times and know how to do them - at least the basics you'll need - jab, hook, cross, at least three different knees, roundhouse - front and rear and defensive maneuvers. After about a year, you will be competent enough to step into the ring.

[Tainan Mantis]

Sevenstar,
Sounds like a great progression.
Along the lines of my own philosophy.

[Oso]

Seven,

I feel I'm getting closer to that ideal now and that is my goal.

I think there is a difference in the person who tends to walk into a Kung Fu class versus the person that's going to immediately step into a muay thai or boxing class due to misperceptions we addressed above. This difference is the urge to fight, something modern day society says is 'wrong'. Boxing, muay thai and 'mma' schools are immediately marketed as competative 'styles' and so are going to attract people who want to mix it up.

I'm not going to market my class as a 'fighting' class because I don't think it has to be that for everyone. Right now, I'm certainly small enough to give enough personal attention to those that want it.

Another aspect is time. Unless I hit the park on mondays and saturdays, I can't offer more class time then I have. If something else doesn't open up for me in the next 6 months then I will probably do that come spring '05.

Meanwhile, I'm very confident that my 2 hour class is the toughest class to participate in for at least the county. There is a BJJ school next county over and I'm sure they run a good class as well.;) The only reason that I've lost people is because of the intensity. I've gone through a very cognative process to attenuate my class to my market.

baby steps, once I get a solid 20 - 25 things will change and I can afford to risk losing someone but right now i'm trying to hang on to each and every person that walks in.


thanks for your input, please give more.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Oso
I'm not going to market my class as a 'fighting' class because I don't think it has to be that for everyone. Right now, I'm certainly small enough to give enough personal attention to those that want it.

I agree. Naturally, that applies to all styles - we don't market ourselves as a fighting school, but plenty of the guys compete, and what is taught is known for competition - but we have several who don't want to compete, only to train hard.

The only reason that I've lost people is because of the intensity. I've gone through a very cognative process to attenuate my class to my market.

When I was training in longfist, we had that problem - the training started off fairly hard, but new people started to join, and began dropping off like flies. Consequently, the calesthenics, length of time we held stances, etc. was lessened. I personally don't agree with it - but I know that people have to do what they must to retain students. How do you monitor this? Do you ask students what they thought of the intensity on various days?

baby steps, once I get a solid 20 - 25 things will change and I can afford to risk losing someone but right now i'm trying to hang on to each and every person that walks in.

definitely understandable.

[Oso]

I agree. Naturally, that applies to all styles - we don't market ourselves as a fighting school, but plenty of the guys compete, and what is taught is known for competition - but we have several who don't want to compete, only to train hard.

As you say, it's known for competition so that will tend to give more of an impression of high intensity immediately to a new student. As we all agree, there is still to much mysticism in the term 'kung fu' so, sadly enough, most people who come through the door aren't 'ready to rock'.

When I was training in longfist, we had that problem - the training started off fairly hard, but new people started to join, and began dropping off like flies. Consequently, the calesthenics, length of time we held stances, etc. was lessened. I personally don't agree with it - but I know that people have to do what they must to retain students. How do you monitor this? Do you ask students what they thought of the intensity on various days?

I'm small enough now that I still am able to talk with each student personally every class so I basically can keep a good idea of what they are feeling. I feel pretty blessed in that almost all my students are into what I'm doing.

Check the H.I.I.T thread Masterkiller started on the Training Forum. I outlined the 'warm up' that I have settled into. Everyone is sweating but no one is puking.


I have been working on some clips from last wednesdays sparring w/ 2 of my students. Still converting to .wmv for size consideration and will hope to have them available for viewing sometime this week.

[yu shan]

Oso

Checked out Masterkiller`s training thread, and your post. How much time do you spend on calesthenics? Then you go to our PongLai warm-up and stretch? This seems like alot to me. I leave it up to my students to do all the strength stuff on their own, 75% of my students do cardio/weight training/running/swimming/pushups stuff outside of my class. With all the material and training Pong Lai offers, I do not want to spend all this time on calesthenics. After doing the PL warmup/stretch, arm cond. two-person hand drills, kicking drills, the choice of "tantui,7*, secret door, plumbflower exercises and two-person to these exercises" then we do forms and the two-person to the form. Conditioning at the end of class. This is not easy to squeeze into a 2 hour class. Just not sure about so much time spent on this calesthenics stuff. You`ll be cutting back on this, I`m sure.

[mantiskilla]

I agree with Yu shan. there is plenty to learn, and not enough time to learn it. it's really up to the student to stay in shape, class should be for learning. i go to class 2times a week. about 4 hours on wednesday, and 10-12 hrs on saturday. no calisthenics, no horsestance.

[Oso]

Yu Shan,

Not quite 7 minutes for kids, 11 minutes for beginning adults, 22 minutes for intermediate adults. Not much time at all. And the interval training is effective.

Remember I've only been doing Pong Lai for 10 months, don't have a lot of what you have said. We do the PL warmup as well as the stance training as well as the arm conditioning every night. From there we usually do tan tui or LFH in the beginners but switched up with stick work or ground work.

[sayloc]

I agree with yushan. I do not spend much time on calesthenics. But it does not seem like oso is wasting much time either.

I keep the class in constant motion and make the Kung Fu very intense (low stances very few breaks). This gives them a great workout.

I do spend much more time on the push ups, sit ups and running for the san shou class.

It seems many of you teach a lot of two person drills and forms. This does make for a more intense class but I find this hard do do with every one. They all learn two person drills and forms but I keep it simple. The students who only come two times a week just wont get it.

Most people are not into it for the long haul and it is very frustrating spending a lot of time teaching two person forms (I think this is harder to teach) then they turn around and walk out the door two months later.

I do teach my core students (about 15 of them) the advanced two person sets and drills but I charge them extra. Even then I teach different people differenet drills / forms instead of focusing on just one. That way I always have some one to train with.

This is how I make my living so it can sometimes be diffult balancing intensity and student base.

[SevenStar]

I can understand doing plenty of calesthenics - There's a standard that students should maintain. Problem is, not all students will do any training outside of class. For those that don't, they will be brought up to snuff in class. learning the techniques alone isn't always enough. sayloc, for example, says he keeps the class moving and active, but, are they active while he is demonstrating new techniques? While they are learning these new techniques, they can't possibly be doing them well enough to be in constant motion, low stance, etc. can they? But, with the calesthenics work at the beginng (or at the end as yu shan was stating) you can make sure that you maintain some sort of standard of excellence - a baseline that ALL students will have.

[German Bai Lung]

I agree with SevenStar. Students are Humans. Are there everything more totaly different than humans?

I do some calesthenics at the end of the training. beginner class almost regular, advanced sometimes. There must be a baseline to make sure everyone is able to perform the stuff they are learning, e.g. weapons!

Nothing is more frustrating than a student who do the Daan Dou without power.

[sayloc]

The applications and and techniques are taught and demonstrated in between sets of techniques (ussually the techniques that are coming up next). This time is considered the students time to recover from the previous set. What I mean is there is no time wasted. They need these recover periods because it is impossible for a student to perform at 90 percent heart rate for an hour and a half and get the techniques right.

Sorry I didnt have all day to describe every little detail of my class for you the first time. I thought you could think out of the box a little.

Have a good day!

[yu shan]

Oso

Sorry if I missed something, when does you group train forms? We will spend about 30 to 40 minutes on forms work. We will do a round-robin, where everyone continuosly goes thru forms. At the end, everyone is soaked and doubled over. But then there are nights where I like to critque forms, thus the pace is backed down quite a bit. Most of the time I like to do this review of forms on my Saturday class in the park. I`ve done one of your classes, it was challenging, informative and well presented. Cheers!

Sayloc

Sounds like you have a good thing going. Will you be attending the tournament in Orlando?

[sayloc]

I will not be at the tournament but plan to be in the area later in the summer.

have a good day

[Oso]

Yu shan, we do form work every night.

[bung bo]

there should be some amount of cals in class. we don't spend that much time doing them, but as yu shan said, a lot of people in our class do stuff outside of class. when i first started pong lai, doing the arm drills every night beefed me up a little bit. this was back when i was able to go 4 nights a week. there is a standard that every student should stay up to i think. otherwise, the class might be too much if they are in bad shape. anyway, it's a martial arts class, not a fat club.

[Oso]

anyway, it's a martial arts class, not a fat club.

which is why we do interval based training...read up on it.