Is Wing Chun Internal?

[Scott]

I don't think so. What do you think? Back it up with theories and actual fact, not preference or fond wishes.

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

[Scott]

Here's mine. I don't think Wing Chun is an internal system, based off a collection of facts and experiences.

1) Other internal stylists definetly think that Wing Chun is externally based, using jing power rather than internal buildup of chi to execute the moves. This could probably be discounted, though, because what does a Bagua man know about Wing Chun? But still worthy of consideration.

2) Historically, not counting the Yim Wing Chun LEGEND (it may be true, but we know that Wing Chun was in existence over 200 years before Yim Wing Chun was alive. However, she probably did make the system famous and rename it after herself. Wing Chun is a system probably made to teach groups of peasants how to fight in a short amount of time--this explains why 80% of the training involves two people--you're teaching two people something at the same time, which is faster and leads to actual combat skills in shorter amounts of time.
Also, Wing Chun was made presumably with the idea of cutting out uneconomical moves from traditional southern styles--internal styles are mostly comprised of moves that seem uneconomical when compared to 'combat reality' moves. I think the people who created Wing Chun were probably seen much as we see combat realists/MMA people in our times.
3) Most of ideas regarding Wing Chun as an internal style seem to branch from the first 6 moves of Sil Lim Tao, which are done extremely slow. When asked why it is done so slow, many people assume it is done slow for the same reasons Tai Chi sets are done slow (and they are at about the same pace,) which is to collect and store and cultivate Chi. Well, this isn't necessarily the case--and even seems unlikely, since there are no other slow moves in the entire system.
A more plausible explanation is that in Sil Lim Tao, you are learning the very basics of Wing Chun, and thus the base that all the rest of your knowledge stems from. If you learn to perform all of your moves perfectly from the start, you will have a strong foundation on which to base your skills. Now, think again. Why are the punches done 3 times, slow motion, and then 3 more at the end? Which move are you most likely to be doing the most in your Wing Chun career? The straight punch is the heart of Wing Chun, coming from the centerline to your opponent's centerline--the poetic basis of Wing Chun--Heart to Heart.
Look at the other slow moves--(their chinese names escape me, so I will use English descriptions to explain them) the tan sau, the hand ridge block (god, why can't I remember it's Chinese name? =P I know I know it,) and the hooking block. TThe hand ridge block and the Tan block and the hooking hand block are three of the four root blocks, from which every other Wing Chun block is based off of. The only block not present in these three moves that comprises one of the root blocks is the Bong Sau, which sort of makes sense, since the Bong Sau has no other blocks which resemble it--it sort of stands alone. The slow returning ridge hand block builds up arm strength, and once again it is teaching you the EXACT positioning for the blocks so that your base for learning Wing Chun is strong.

Those are my points. What points are there that support Wing Chun as an internal system?

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

[Watchman]

>>>What points are there that support Wing Chun as an internal system?<<<

Because Ip Ching says so, and as the great Cookie Monster once said, "That's good enough for me."

BTW, didn't we already discuss this in the "SLT fast or slow" thread?

>>>I don't think Wing Chun is an internal system, based off a collection of facts and experiences.<<<

You didn't state any "facts".

>>>What do you think? Back it up with theories and actual fact<<<

No, I don't want to. :D

Watchman&reg;

[Sam]

Siu Lin Tao (Little Transmutation) Golden Bell Heavy Hei-Gung.
Chum Kue (Depressing Bridge)Light skills Hei-Gung.
Biu Gee (Darting, Thrusting, Penetrating Fingers)Dim Mak extending Chi.
All forms utilize internal energy tork and Fa Ging. www.buddhapalm.com (http://www.buddhapalm.com)

[edward]

wing chun is definitely an internal art.

[Scott]

That's not very effective =P

Sam, where did you get your definitions for the sets? I've never heard them defined that way.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Siu Lin Tao (Little Transmutation) Golden Bell Heavy Hei-Gung.
Chum Kue (Depressing Bridge)Light skills Hei-Gung.
Biu Gee (Darting, Thrusting, Penetrating Fingers)Dim Mak extending Chi.
All forms utilize internal energy tork and Fa Ging. [/quote]

First, there is no definite way to translate the symbols that stand for any of the sets or the words "Wing Chun" themselves-- we can only guess. But I've always heard Sil Lim Tao to mean "Little beginning idea", Chum Kiu to mean "Searching the bridge," and "Biu Gee" to mean something about thrusting fingers. Biu Gee doesn't seem to be about Dim Mak to me, but rather about recovering the center line with damaging techniques--hence the odd angles on attacks. I don't see any evidence of showing "secret striking points" either, just the usual eyes, throat, that sort of thing.

More opinions?

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

[Stranger]

For what it is worth, William Cheung has written that the art is internal in his opinion.
First Form is covered in his book "How to Build Chi Power" and focuses on internal development.
He would agree with Sam that the third form is a dim mak form, it is written in the aforementioned book.

"Luminous beings are we."

[JasBourne]

My personal opinion is that it is internal. I'm not advanced enough to pull out any 'facts' to support my statement, other than it feels pretty ****ed internal to me, so that's where I put most of my focus when I practice.

[Highlander]

As it was explained to me, there are internal elements in Wing Chun, but that does not make it an internal system. It is an external system because of one thing, it is not dependent on the internal. That is, Wing Chun works because of body alignment and structure not internal power. If you completely removed the internal from Wing Chun it would still be an effective art. In fact some school do not teach the internal. As has been mentioned here previously, not all school do Sil Lum Tao slowly. Some school even use dynamic tension in the first form.

Actually, one of the principles Wing Chun is based on is the principle of Yin and Yang. Therefore, Wing Chun contains both internal and external elements is equal proportions. So I prefer to think of Wing Chun as a balanced art

[cho]

I'm part of the school of thought that believes every art requires both internal and external. I think this especially applies to Wing Chun.
Some people I've seen do nothing but the Chi Sau and practice the SLT as if it was qigong, but don't do the punching or drills. Those people get beaten and make Wing Chun look bad. Then there are those who do the opposite and train it as if it was kickboxing. They have a better chance in a fight.
As Fist of Legend put it,
"Hard without soft only wastes energy. Soft without hard can never strike."s

[shaolinboxer]

Internal, external. One doesn't exist without the other.

[Kaitain(UK)]

all we work is rooting, body alignment, structure and mechanics

the WC guys I train with were surprised at the 'real' nature of my style - if I tried using the postures of the form as they are practiced I'd get a beating. It's all about principles of movement - surely a similiar concept to WC?

There's nothing I talk about to my WC friends that doesn't appear in some form in their own system e.g rooting, power from the waist, slipping/avoiding/passing rather than blocking/attrition, unending flow of attack, no retreating, attacking the centre.

I move slowly in the form so I can move quickly - no restrictions, no tension, just fluidity. Nothing to do with building up some mystic force - just perfect shape and movement.

The biggest difference we've encountered so far is that ****ed sticking legs **** you guys do - it has really improved my awareness of the whole fight.

It's hard to stick a label on WC though as there are so many conflicting views - I have pushed with WC guys who were as soft and fluid as me, and others who were harder than a karateka. The soft guys were the hardest to fight - WC doesn't seem to work when it's hard and tense.

Wish we didn't have such a bad image :(

Anyway - in answer to the question I'd say WC was internal as you aren't reliant on conditioning, strength or speed. The guys I sparred with used technique, timing, strategy and most of all sensitivity.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[MikeDensity]

I tend to agree with Highlander about there being a balance in Wing Chun's theory. Obviously, some schools teach more of a hard approach and some schools teach more of a soft approach. Wing Chun only exists in the minds of its practitioner and is therefore subject to being filtered through imperfect humans. If Wing Chun is practiced by one who doesn't understand it's internal power it will appear to be a very hard martial art. Just as Tai Chi, when taught by someone who doesn't understand its internal aspects, will look a lot like dancing rather than Kung Fu.

I have a lot of difficulty figuring out what is meant by internal power. If by internal power you mean: does Wing Chun stress and teach proper mental focus, bodily structure, and form? I'd say yes, it is meant to. The purpose of the Siu Lum Tao, according to Ip Man, was the internalizing of the Wing Chun repertoire.

So, this is all in my own humble opinion. I'm not sure what theories and facts you're interested in? Quotes from Wing Chun masters, a Wing Chun training syllabus, stories about Wing Chun masters who had cultivated enough internal power to jump 30 feet straight up, something like that?
:) Lemme know, and good luck on finding an answer to your inquiry.

Mike

[Watchman]

>>>Wing Chun only exists in the minds of its practitioner and is therefore subject to being filtered through imperfect humans. If Wing Chun is practiced by one who doesn't understand it's internal power it will appear to be a very hard martial art.<<<


Very good point.


Watchman&reg;

[old jong]

Wing chun can be practiced as an external art but is really internal.All the training(forms) is internal.

happens!

[Kumkuat]

Describe HOW and WHY Wing Chun is an internal art.

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

How about first, what is your definition of an "internal" art?

Thanks!
Sandman[Wing Chun]
Wing Chun Forum Moderator.
Student-www.authentickungfu.com

[northstar]

The division of CMA into external and internal is pretty useless. All styles have elements of both, this is the meaning of yin and yang.
Literal translations of the form names:
1. Siu lim-tau: "siu" means small/little, "lim" by itself means think of, remember, study, "tau" means head. BUT, lim-tau (that's a composite word) means "idea".
2. Cham kiu: "cham" means seek, search, look for. "Kiu" means bridge, or any bridge-like structure or the beams of a structure.
3. Biu ji: "Biu" is most often written with a character meaning show, mark, symbolize or symbol etc, but there is another character pronounced exactly the same way but written slightly differently that means dart, spear, javelin or any harpoon-like weapon. "Ji" means finger, and also to point.
These are the literal translations of the characters used to write the Cantonese words, and not interpretations of the "meaning" of the forms. All the words are in Yale transcription (pinyin equivalents are: xiao niantou, xun qiao, biao zhi).

[Kumkuat]

Well, I'll just link you to the thread in the Taiji and the Internal martial arts forum. Whatever Josh_f says is pretty much accurate from what my experiences.

internal/external (http://forum.kungfuonline.com/1/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=126197291&f=123191102&m=6751961312&p=2)

[Chum Kil]

I believe it is, but not to the same extent as Tai Chi, Pau Kau, Hsing I. What I was told once it's a issunce of power. I've also been told to help your Wing Chun try Zhan Zhong.

John

Have little and gain;
Have much and be confused.

[MikeDensity]

The yin/yang issue Northstar and the definition of external/internal by Josh_F reveals a good point. Any martial art that is relying on external power is inherently flawed. The bigger and stronger opponent will always win.

If anything, it seems to me that the goal of martial arts is to give an advantage to the studious and focused practitioner rather than the outwardly strongest. If Wing Chun or any martial art was external (assuming by external you mean totally devoid of internal development exercises) then it may as well be wrestling (not that there's anything wrong with wrestling ;) ) And if that were true, I think we'd spend most of our training time lifting weights rather than doing the forms, Chi Sao, etc.

Hopefully not being the pedantic, quote-spewing scholar that Josh_F referred to, here is a quote that gave me some insight into this discussion:

Power of mind is infinite, while brawn is limited.
-Koichi Tohei

I hope this is true, because if it's not I'll be forever getting my butt kicked! :D

Mike

[[Censored]]

If "internal" means that the yi (not li) leads the qi, how can we argue that Wing Chun is not internal?

I have heard that Yip Man himself said WC is not internal. But, I have also heard that the prevailing attitude of the time was that "internal arts are for nerds" :p

[S.Teebas]

Short term, the external may produce faster use for self defence. But the internal, which takes longer to get good results from, will in the long run produce the most powerful results...


S.Teebas

[Kumkuat]

How come Wing Chun is not noted as an internal art like Taiji, Xingyi, or Bagua? Or even a semi internal art like baji, Tong Bei Quan, Aikido, etc.,

Also can you internal power with the Internal-Rotated-Adduction-Stance? Is it like the standing post stance in Taiji or squatting monkey stance in Xingyi?

What about chain punching? When I did learned wing chun, chain punching seemed like a lot of arm power to me. Of course, I could of been with some guy who didn't know anything about internal wing chun or didn't bother teaching me the internal aspects of it.

[Armin]

Hi guys!

What do you think about this idea: Ving Tsun is both - internal and external. It depends, as always, on your enemy. If he's "weaker" you'll fight more external, if he's stronger you'll fight internal. Isn't that the idea of giving way? If you're stronger (or have more power due to a better structure) you just punch through. If you're weaker you change e. g. into Bong Sao.


Armin.

[mun hung]

In my opinion, Wing Chun contains both internal and external elements. Why would'nt it. Both mind and body have to be developed equally to truly understand and appreciate the art. Yin and Yang - it's there.

There is something very internal about performing the siu nim tau, but then again there is something very external about kicking someones a$$ using techniques from it. Would'nt you agree? ;)

[Ars vitae]

Personally, I find WIng Tsun an interesting arts, with elements in both. Although it doesn't use force with force, instead it uses sticking and listening to energy. You would think it wouldn't be external. However to my limited knowledge I haven't seen any chi cultivation exercise's you'd expect in an internal. On the other hand Sil nim tau, does place you in a meditative state and chum kui does get my chi flowing. Does this place it within a category of it's own?

[tiger_1]

wing chun have internal parth tho is basic for progresiv chi sao . chi sao alone is allmoust noting but here is strong intonjutsy for suport. not just my opinion but sure .- friendly tiger_1 :cool:

/

[cha kuen]

The only internal styles are tai chi, pa kua, hsing yi and waterboxing. (also variations of)

Wing chun is NOT an internal style.

BUT

It certaintly has internal aspects. Every kung fu style has internal aspects. If they didn't, then it wouldn't be kung fu.

Your chi is stored in the tan tien, regardless of style. Hands should be soft and hard utilizing Yin and Yang.

That's what people mean when they say that wing chun can be "internal."

[Watchman]

>>>The only internal styles are tai chi, pa kua, hsing yi and waterboxing. (also variations of)
Wing chun is NOT an internal style.<<<

So, what is it exactly about Hsing-I (to use an example) that makes it an "internal" art?

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung

[cha kuen]

You might want to ask Shifu Patterson!

www.hsing-i.com (http://www.hsing-i.com)

[kungfu cowboy]

I think that the physical movements of wing chun are designed around the human body to the degree that the priciples can be used in either an internal or external interpretation. It seems a neutral design, and both methods will produce results. Or something.

(I seriously need a life.)

[JasBourne]

How it seems to be working for me is that paying mind to the principles allows me to express those principles physically. If my mind is on an 'external' application of movement, I tend to violate the principles in one form or another. For instance, if I'm using fok sao, and my mind is on the external application, I will tend to use a clamping force rather than a forward energy, and hunch over to boot. If I keep my mind on the principles of the fok sao (internal focus)while drilling, I am much more likely not to automatically use poor posture and inefficient energy when employing the fok in sparring, thereby getting much better results from that tool.

So paradoxically, by focusing 'in', I can express 'out' without having to think about 'out'. I personally think that all the forms have built into them a constantly re-inforcing internal loop.

I don't know that one can understand or achieve 'no-mind' through academic discussion of the subject. I think you have to 'just do it' :D

[Watchman]

From Sifu Patterson's site:

"The original meanings of Internal vs. External kung fu have been largely misconstrued over the last generation due to many "oral" variations of the many different kung fu families trying to paint a picture showcasing their own individual style. So, now adays a person hears many incorrect statements regarding these differences such as External Styles are "Hard" and Internal Styles are "Soft", but in reality the original meaning of this "difference" was entirely philosophic and geographic. The original me aning of the external styles was simply that those styles were originally started by Da Mo and the ShaoLin temples (buddhist philosophy) who purportedly came from India, and was hence from outside China (External Style). And the original meaning of "Internal" was to denote those styles that were founded on the Taoist philosophy of Lao Tzu and were created inside of China (Internal Styles)."

Interesting interpretation. This definition explains your original remark.

Also this:

"It is also true, because of certain historical events, that nowadays the Internal school of thought focuses on not only self defense and external manifestations of ability, such as strength, stamina, flexibility and physical prowess, but also explores the inside of the practitioner’s development. Internal kung fu strengthens the internal organs and circulatory systems. It increases lymphatic circulation to aid the practitioner in removing toxins from the body more rapidly. It improves focus of mind and concentration of intellect. We also learn to apply the principles of Yin and Yang and the Five Elements, principles of redirection, absorption and reflection, evasion and entrapment, etc. These lessons are just as applicable strategically in a business meeting as they are in self defense and confrontation. A person need only be taught their essence of expression in the practical sense. This is also part of Internal kung fu."

This explanation fits my training in Wing Chun as well, so I don't see the big difference in my "external art". I asked my question because I have worked out with a couple of Hsing-I guys in the past and didn't see a big difference in the way they developed and issued power than what I was doing, only that the fighting structure and ways of applying power were different.

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung

[Kumkuat]

Xingyi is an internal art because it follows the six harmonies principle. You know, whole body connection, having the "spring" between wherever and the ground (to use Josh's term), heart leading the mind leading the qi. Also, peng jin being the basic, core jin.

[Watchman]

So, if I have a unified body structure, rooting my balance so my footwork is "springy", can express fa jing and explosive power (which I can) - doing so by training my mind to lead the energy - then doesn't that make Wing Chun an internal art by your definition?

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung

[Kumkuat]

Why aren't people here answering my questions? How and what makes Wing Chun internal? Don't tell me to define neijia is, I already did.Don't tell me that wing chun has both aspect, tell me how and why. Don't tell me that "oh wing chun moves with intent" tell me where a high level wing chun master said that. I can source you to a bagua master saying that if you want, but not any wing chun masters.

Also, no one has answered my question on why Wing Chun isn't regarded as an internal art like Taiji or semi internal art like baji.

Or about stance training with intent. Does the IRAS provide and build internal power?

Does chain punching involve just the dantien and intent instead of arm muscles to preform? Does it have peng jin?

Also, some additional questions. Does every wing chun movement emphasises moving with intent?

Any standing excercises like standing post and squatting monkey?

In taiji, we move slow so we can try to feel the connection and use our mind to lead the qi, does wing chun focus on that or just on forms and chi sao drills and such?

[kungfu cowboy]

I also think that internal methods take longer, but the results are usually superior, and can almost be refined indefinately. So there!

(I seriously need a life.)

[mun hung]

All this stuff is making me internally constipated! ;)

[[Censored]]

"Always maintain forward intent."

- Kenneth Chung

Is that high enough for you? :p

[kungfu cowboy]

Pack it up!!!

(I seriously need a life.)

[Watchman]

"Internal power is THE major concern of Wing Chun." -- Grandmaster Ip Ching

[Kumkuat]

I'm sorry, I wasn't very clear. When I mean intent, you use your mind to create a path from the ground to the point of contact. This is not a forward intent.

[Watchman]

>>>How and what makes Wing Chun internal?<<<

By the exact same criteria you used for Hsing-I.

>>>Also, no one has answered my question on why Wing Chun isn't regarded as an internal art like Taiji or semi internal art like baji.<<<

Don't take offense, but my immediate resonse to this question is: who cares? It may just be because even with Wing Chun's popularity, it is still greatly misunderstood. Whether or not the entire CMA community come together in some huge conference to officially declare Wing Chun as an internal art doesn't really matter to me. Outside validation isn't a big concern of mine.

>>>Or about stance training with intent. Does the IRAS provide and build internal power?<<<

I don't know what you mean by "IRAS", but Yee Chee Kim Yeung is practiced with the intent of squeezing power up through the legs through adduction pressure while simultaneously relaxing/sinking the shoulders to concentrate power/chi to the dan tien. And yes, it must be done with intent (Yi).

>>>Does chain punching involve just the dantien and intent instead of arm muscles to preform? Does it have peng jin?<<<

Chain punching involves the dan tien, yiu ma (waist/stance power), and proper elbow acceleration achieved through total relaxation. I don't know the definition of "peng jin", but if praciticed properly chain punching should express a characteristic whip-like explosive power.

>>>Does every wing chun movement emphasises moving with intent?<<<

Most definitely. If movements are not done with the intent leading them and gong lik (internal power) behind them, then you're doing what my Si Pak Eric Lee calls Fa Sau (flowery hand) movements with nothing behind them to do any real damage.

>>>Any standing excercises like standing post and squatting monkey?<<<

Yes: http://www.stgeorgewingchun.com/news/journal/internal_power.htm

>>>move slow so we can try to feel the connection and use our mind to lead the qi, does wing chun focus on that or just on forms and chi sao drills and such?<<<

All of the above.

>>>Don't tell me that "oh wing chun moves with intent" tell me where a high level wing chun master said that.<<<

Here's that quote from Ip Ching again:

Internal power is THE major concern of Wing Chun.

>>>When I mean intent, you use your mind to create a path from the ground to the point of contact.<<<

Yes, I was taught to use my stance and footwork to generate power from the floor to the point of contact. I train (with intent) to lock in and coordinate six points (ankle, knee, waist, shoulder, elbow, wrist) to focus my entire body behind each movement.

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung

[Kumkuat]

Okay, Ip Ching did say it according to watchman. Maybe it is an internal art. But I'm not 100% convinced yet because I tried looking for resources that tell me wing chun is an internal art. I did find an interview with this wing chun master. The master did say Wing Chun was an internal art, but he did not say why. Is there any sources where he describes how Wing Chun is an internal art? I just need to see, just like how
Ma Chuanxu, Zhu Tian Cai, Dai Long Bang, Mike Sigman et al describe how bagua, xingyi, or taiji is an internal art. Thanks.

[Kumkuat]

Thank for the info watchman. At least you're the only one who tried to give me some explanation. What do you mean by "whip like explosive power"? Do you mean that the power releases from the legs then to the wiast, then to the arm, etc., in sequence like a wave in a whip? Thanks.

[Watchman]

Yes, and also because it creates a "snap" on contact like cracking a whip which creates a kinetic shockwave.

[Watchman]

>>>Do you mean that the power releases from the legs then to the wiast, then to the arm, etc., in sequence like a wave in a whip?<<<

Sorry, I didn't take the time to really think about your question before that last response...and the forum is posting slow so I can't just edit it.

Anyway, Wing Chun's punching power is generated from the waist and elbow acceleration, supported by the stance and arm structue which adds to the power on impact. If your arm structure isn't locked in with your stance (backed up by it), you're only hitting with your arm's physical mass. Using your entire body and leading your power with your intent gives the explosive effect (what I meant by "whip-like") on impact.

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung

[CLOUD ONE]

That's a nice way of putting it.
Could you expand on what you mean by 'intent'?
Would intention be the same thing?

[Sam]

Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen contains Hei/Nei-Gung, Tork power, ********y power, shock power, breathe control, chi absorption, chi transferance, chi kong, and ethereal projection.

[jameswebsteruk]

Ive just got to ask, what in the name of Sweet **** Willy is "ethereal projection"?

Frank

"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running
around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music."

[Watchman]

What I mean by "intent" is the Chinese definition of Yi, which can be translated as "intent", but could be explained more as "focused concentration of emotional content."

[kungfu cowboy]

I think he is referring to "astral projection".(now I'm scared!)

(I seriously need a life.)

[kungfu cowboy]

BTW, Frank Exchange, I love your signature! LOL!! :D

(I seriously need a life.)

[CLOUD ONE]

Can anyone explain what excersises you do to train for 'emotional content'?

[Sam]

Just a joke :D

[Watchman]

You can train emotional content using the gong lik "internal power" exercise contained in SLT.

If you can read Adobe Acrobat PDF files, I can email some articles to you that explain in detail the principles behind gong lik/intent/emotional content and the fighting mentality.

Let me know if you're interested.

[S.Teebas]

Kumkuat....

Wing Chun is most definately an internal art (although most practice it with external influence). How can you explain how women (where i train) are capable of totally dominating men twice their size, strength, weight? ...a very logical answer, the system is internal and baised on skill rather than "who has the biggest muscles wins".

[kungfu cowboy]

Not to argue with you, but all I see in that situation is correct use of body structure. Not necessarily an internal influence. I do however, support you in that wing chun is an art where internal methods produce the bestest results. Yay!

(I seriously need a life.)&trade;

[Kumkuat]

Even in internal arts, if both the male and female are at an even skill level, neither should be dominating right? However, if the guy weighs more, it would still be hard to throw him around even using internal power. 300 pounds is STILL 300 pounds, internal arts aren't magically gonna give you super levitation strength. Besides, if a male who weighs 300 pounds and a woman weighs 120 pounds and both have the same amount of internal skills, the man should have the advantage right?

[Rory]

I asked my master who teaches (wu style taichi) if wing chun was external or internal he answered 50/50 he said becasuse of the sticky hands practice it was exposing them to the elements of push hands wich are very internal.

[Watchman]

Wow, I'm sure glad I'm being "exposed". :rolleyes:

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung

[tattoosbyish]

i was told by my sifu that the internal aspects of wing chun are implied in the system... he said that is what his sifu told him and his sifu before.......

i study the moy yat system and i also have studied with a tai chi master and still practice my tai chi while learning wing chun......and i find internal perspective can apply to wing chun, i can not flat out say that wing chun is an internal art but in playing hands with my sifu i feel things that i wouldnt necessarily say is brute strength, there is something else going on..........i can compare some of my experiences between the two if anyone is interested? as well maybe spell out a few other things about internal theory that i was taught......

[GlennR]

i was told by my sifu that the internal aspects of wing chun are implied in the system... he said that is what his sifu told him and his sifu before.......

i study the moy yat system and i also have studied with a tai chi master and still practice my tai chi while learning wing chun......and i find internal perspective can apply to wing chun, i can not flat out say that wing chun is an internal art but in playing hands with my sifu i feel things that i wouldnt necessarily say is brute strength, there is something else going on..........i can compare some of my experiences between the two if anyone is interested? as well maybe spell out a few other things about internal theory that i was taught......

Is that a record for digging up old posts? ;)

[tattoosbyish]

haha perhaps.......but i just joined the converstaion

[GlennR]

haha perhaps.......but i just joined the converstaion

2001? Ahhhhh............... takes me back ;)

[LaterthanNever]

"using jing power rather than internal buildup of chi to execute the moves"

Well..ahh..what do you think "jing" is after all? Fa jing..as a concept is related to "lek"(power). Thus..if someone has no jing...it is said they have no "sat lek"(solid power). Jing is "internal" is my point

This whole idea of "He doesn't do kung fu..he only teaches tai-chi"..or some other such idea is flawed.

Tai Chi is absolutely a kung fu style.

There is a certain point in training in which these distinctions of "internal" or "external" begin to blur...

[Vajramusti]

2001? Ahhhhh............... takes me back ;)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Same old same old topics float round and round in the wind tunnel over time.!

zzzzzzz


joy

[YiQuanOne]

Any movement can be done external or internal, styles are there as tools to use to build yourself. Everyone starts out as a external practioner, some styles will make it easier or harder to complete your transition to internal.

Wing Chun is one of the easiest simple methods to make that transformation to a internal aspect, if practiced correctly.

Some styles will never leed you to internal, like boxing, MMA, Karate ect., their just based on building the muscles and speed.

Styles like Tai-Chi will leed to internal, but the tools are not simple and very few get there using the form method that is being taught by most teachers these days. If the teacher does not have it, they cannot teach it to the student.

So just learning the forms is the external part, making the forms internal is the hard part.

If you can get the internal from doing one of these styles (tools) then you can apply it to movements of boxing ,MMA , Karate ect..

So yes Wing Chun I think is one of the most direct simplest method to build your house. You will still need the guidence of one that can show how the tools need to be used or else you will always just being doing external Wing Chun.

From what I have seen most people are mostly learning external Wing Chun and are unaware of the difference.

:)

[trubblman]

Wow! this thread is 10 years old.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't know why people want to get on the "internal" wagon. The word "internal" doesn't necessary have good reputation.

[lance]

Here's mine. I don't think Wing Chun is an internal system, based off a collection of facts and experiences.

1) Other internal stylists definetly think that Wing Chun is externally based, using jing power rather than internal buildup of chi to execute the moves. This could probably be discounted, though, because what does a Bagua man know about Wing Chun? But still worthy of consideration.

2) Historically, not counting the Yim Wing Chun LEGEND (it may be true, but we know that Wing Chun was in existence over 200 years before Yim Wing Chun was alive. However, she probably did make the system famous and rename it after herself. Wing Chun is a system probably made to teach groups of peasants how to fight in a short amount of time--this explains why 80% of the training involves two people--you're teaching two people something at the same time, which is faster and leads to actual combat skills in shorter amounts of time.
Also, Wing Chun was made presumably with the idea of cutting out uneconomical moves from traditional southern styles--internal styles are mostly comprised of moves that seem uneconomical when compared to 'combat reality' moves. I think the people who created Wing Chun were probably seen much as we see combat realists/MMA people in our times.
3) Most of ideas regarding Wing Chun as an internal style seem to branch from the first 6 moves of Sil Lim Tao, which are done extremely slow. When asked why it is done so slow, many people assume it is done slow for the same reasons Tai Chi sets are done slow (and they are at about the same pace,) which is to collect and store and cultivate Chi. Well, this isn't necessarily the case--and even seems unlikely, since there are no other slow moves in the entire system.
A more plausible explanation is that in Sil Lim Tao, you are learning the very basics of Wing Chun, and thus the base that all the rest of your knowledge stems from. If you learn to perform all of your moves perfectly from the start, you will have a strong foundation on which to base your skills. Now, think again. Why are the punches done 3 times, slow motion, and then 3 more at the end? Which move are you most likely to be doing the most in your Wing Chun career? The straight punch is the heart of Wing Chun, coming from the centerline to your opponent's centerline--the poetic basis of Wing Chun--Heart to Heart.
Look at the other slow moves--(their chinese names escape me, so I will use English descriptions to explain them) the tan sau, the hand ridge block (god, why can't I remember it's Chinese name? =P I know I know it,) and the hooking block. TThe hand ridge block and the Tan block and the hooking hand block are three of the four root blocks, from which every other Wing Chun block is based off of. The only block not present in these three moves that comprises one of the root blocks is the Bong Sau, which sort of makes sense, since the Bong Sau has no other blocks which resemble it--it sort of stands alone. The slow returning ridge hand block builds up arm strength, and once again it is teaching you the EXACT positioning for the blocks so that your base for learning Wing Chun is strong.

Those are my points. What points are there that support Wing Chun as an internal system?

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

Scott , to me WC is both an internal and external system , you know why ? You pretty much explained it in the Sil Lum Tao form , that when it ' s done slow like tai chi that ' s the internal part of WC , now you mentioned about the 3 punches ?
Lets say the attacker throws a right punch aiming for your face area you throw your own right punch at his face too , but deflecting his punch away from your face , from there you throw 2 more punches . This comes from Sifu Gary Lam .

The external part is when you use those WC moves for fighting like the taun sao ,
pak sao , bong sao , downward pak sao , fook sao , huen sao . And the 2 forms Chum Kiu and bil jee . The chum Kiu contains techniques for breaking the attackers' elbows , and the throwing moves which comes from the twisting of your entire body , and the kicking techniques . BIL JEE also is unique too using the fingers to strike at the different parts of the attackers' body . Bil Jee also contains kicks too as well as the kwan sao and using the elbows in a different ways just like Chum Kiu , bil jee , and sil lum tao . So each form has something to offer the individual person . Wong Shun Leung say the Sil Lum Tao form should be done very slowely to get the internal benefits , even Augustine Fong emphasize on the samething too . Ip Man would do this form for 1 hour to get the internal benefits .

When you fight using WC you would just move into the opponent as he attacks you . WC is known for it ' s agressive fighting ways . You develop internal power by practicing the Sil Lum Tao form , to develop the external power you condition your hands by striking at wall bags and punch it too and train in the SLT stance with your hands by your waist . To gain internal power .

Other than what I mentioned if possible train on the wooden dummy that ' ll condition the external part of the body . If you can inflict damage on your attackers' first punch , it ' ll make him walk away from fighting with you , because he ' ll feel the contact anyway , if he ' s smart . If he thinks that he can handle your punishment then he ' s stupid . I ' m also speaking from experiences . On the history of WC I do agree with you .

The WC book by GM Chueng talks about the SLT form in the body theres' accupunture meridians lines , The moves of the SLT form when you do it slow it circulates the internal chi to move through the meridians of your accupuncture points . You can also massage it to heal yourself and other methods which the book Chi Power explains .

[Hardwork108]

Any movement can be done external or internal, styles are there as tools to use to build yourself. Everyone starts out as a external practioner, some styles will make it easier or harder to complete your transition to internal.

Wing Chun is one of the easiest simple methods to make that transformation to a internal aspect, if practiced correctly.

Some styles will never leed you to internal, like boxing, MMA, Karate ect., their just based on building the muscles and speed.

Styles like Tai-Chi will leed to internal, but the tools are not simple and very few get there using the form method that is being taught by most teachers these days. If the teacher does not have it, they cannot teach it to the student.

So just learning the forms is the external part, making the forms internal is the hard part.

If you can get the internal from doing one of these styles (tools) then you can apply it to movements of boxing ,MMA , Karate ect..

So yes Wing Chun I think is one of the most direct simplest method to build your house. You will still need the guidence of one that can show how the tools need to be used or else you will always just being doing external Wing Chun.

From what I have seen most people are mostly learning external Wing Chun and are unaware of the difference.

:)

Very well put. I would even go further and say that because most people are learning external Wing Chun, they are not then really learning Wing Chun. If there is no Yin present in the Wing Chun that one is learning then one is not learning the style in the way it was designed to be mastered, hence they are learning something else, ie. a "shell" of what WC should be !

That is my humble and honest opinion.

[Graham H]

Wong Shun Leung say the Sil Lum Tao form should be done very slowely to get the internal benefits

When WSL said "internal benefits" he meant that what you are thinking is important! WSL did not believe in "chi" according to people I have spoke to that knew him. Ving Tsun is not like Tai Chi!!!

Your ideas about SLT, CK MYJ and BJ are totally different to the WSL lineage.

GH

[Graham H]

That is my humble and honest opinion.

...and you are entitled to your opinion but you are wrong! ;)


GH

[HumbleWCGuy]

I don't think so. What do you think? Back it up with theories and actual fact, not preference or fond wishes.

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

Wing Chun as a combative method should not be taught as an internal system. Now having said that, most TCMA have internal aspects including WC. When it comes to those internal aspects, you can treat them as magic or you can try to demystify them. There are a number of things in martial arts that are thought of as displaying internal power, but I tend to focus on what I believe to be the important lesson.

Blind fold training
Some would consider it as ESP. I Treat it as as an opportunity to learn to trust other senses like feel and hearing.

Breaking
Some might consider this to be a demonstration of internal power. Anyone who breaks really knows that breaking is really about confidence and technique.

Demonstrations of Immobility
Some might consider this a demonstration of internal power. Really, it is a demonstration of people who have trained for a while and developed dynamic and static strength (via stretching, plyometrics, and isometrics), learned to sink their weight, and learned to redirect force.


I have seen other things like monks who claim to use their chi to resist cold and so on . What they really are doing is just tightening their cores to generate heat which is a basic special forces tactic to resist cold. The list goes on and on.

The list goes on with mediation, various iron techniques, technique categorization, fighting strategy, and so on. They are all mystified by certain groups of people partly to appears as wise and in a number of cases because of an instructor's lack of experience to explicitly explain the processes involved.

[HumbleWCGuy]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Same old same old topics float round and round in the wind tunnel over time.!

zzzzzzz


joy

That's okay with me. I think that these questions get asked a lot because they are important. I like these opportunities to refine my explanations. Although, it is funny that this tread is soooo old.

[Hendrik]

Seriously,

if Wing Chun doesnt have the internal cultivation, Wing Chun is extremely limited.

[YiQuanOne]

Wing Chun as a combative method should not be taught as an internal system. Now having said that, most TCMA have internal aspects including WC. When it comes to those internal aspects, you can treat them as magic or you can try to demystify them. There are a number of things in martial arts that are thought of as displaying internal power, but I tend to focus on what I believe to be the important lesson.

Blind fold training
Some would consider it as ESP. I Treat it as as an opportunity to learn to trust other senses like feel and hearing.

Breaking
Some might consider this to be a demonstration of internal power. Anyone who breaks really knows that breaking is really about confidence and technique.

Demonstrations of Immobility
Some might consider this a demonstration of internal power. Really, it is a demonstration of people who have trained for a while and developed dynamic and static strength (via stretching, plyometrics, and isometrics), learned to sink their weight, and learned to redirect force.


I have seen other things like monks who claim to use their chi to resist cold and so on . What they really are doing is just tightening their cores to generate heat which is a basic special forces tactic to resist cold. The list goes on and on.

The list goes on with mediation, various iron techniques, technique categorization, fighting strategy, and so on. They are all mystified by certain groups of people partly to appears as wise and in a number of cases because of an instructor's lack of experience to explicitly explain the processes involved.


Internal means energy flows both directions, in and out, if only external bigger guy always win.
99.5% of people can only do energy in one direction, they are always expanding out. Running away or moving back is not doing energy in inward direction.

[WC1277]

IMO wing chun has internal but I don't think you have to do anything special to cultivate it other than just being aware of your own body.......just pay attention to your structure and the rest will come naturally...

[Hardwork108]

...and you are entitled to your opinion but you are wrong! ;)


GH

Your "humble" opinion is the same as the other, and unfortunately majority, clueless "kung fu-ists" who have become great at learning and mastering half truths as regards the TCMAs. I repeat, those who learn any TCMA on their external merits only are learning nothing but a largely empty "shell" of a given style.

That fact alone explains why so many nowadays see the TCMAs lacking and hence look to other styles, including irrelevant, as well as other largely "empty shell" systems to fill in the gaps.

Of course others, will stick to their empty shell Wing Chun until they find out that it is incomplete, the hard way, by getting hurt.

The fact is that all TCMAs have yin and yang aspects and these go deep. They involve specialist training and understanding of body unity, as well as "softness", finetuned "listening" and "sensitivity" abilities.

You need to do more research, even if it involves asking real kung fu masters. I mean you live in the UK for god's sake and there are at least two real masters there who you could research with.!!!

[k gledhill]

Your "humble" opinion is the same as the other, and unfortunately majority, clueless "kung fu-ists" who have become great at learning and mastering half truths as regards the TCMAs. I repeat, those who learn any TCMA on their external merits only are learning nothing but a largely empty "shell" of a given style.

That fact alone explains why so many nowadays see the TCMAs lacking and hence look to other styles, including irrelevant, as well as other largely "empty shell" systems to fill in the gaps.

Of course others, will stick to their empty shell Wing Chun until they find out that it is incomplete, the hard way, by getting hurt.

The fact is that all TCMAs have yin and yang aspects and these go deep. They involve specialist training and understanding of body unity, as well as "softness", finetuned "listening" and "sensitivity" abilities.

You need to do more research, even if it involves asking real kung fu masters. I mean you live in the UK for god's sake and there are at least two real masters there who you could research with.!!!

Who would they be ?

[GlennR]

Some styles will never leed you to internal, like boxing, MMA, Karate ect., their just based on building the muscles and speed.

Thats is the most clueless comment about the mentioned arts you could possibly make. The shame is that a lot of people think the same as you

Styles like Tai-Chi will leed to internal, but the tools are not simple and very few get there using the form method that is being taught by most teachers these days. If the teacher does not have it, they cannot teach it to the student.

So tell me, what measurable results will this internal get you??

If you can get the internal from doing one of these styles (tools) then you can apply it to movements of boxing ,MMA , Karate ect..

Why would you want to?

So yes Wing Chun I think is one of the most direct simplest method to build your house. You will still need the guidence of one that can show how the tools need to be used or else you will always just being doing external Wing Chun.

Can you tell me someone that could teach me this?


From what I have seen most people are mostly learning external Wing Chun and are unaware of the difference.:)[/QUOTE]

How do you measure that?

[GlennR]

[QUOTE]Your "humble" opinion is the same as the other, and unfortunately majority, clueless "kung fu-ists" who have become great at learning and mastering half truths as regards the TCMAs. I repeat, those who learn any TCMA on their external merits only are learning nothing but a largely empty "shell" of a given style.

Oh dear.
How do you measure someones "emptiness" Spencer??
Im betting combat effectiveness isnt something you use as a yardstick

That fact alone explains why so many nowadays see the TCMAs lacking and hence look to other styles, including irrelevant, as well as other largely "empty shell" systems to fill in the gaps.

The majority if people that leave/supplement TCMA are usually looking for a more realistic, measurable combat effective system or training method. And please let us know what styles are "irrelevant" or "largely empty shells"?

Of course others, will stick to their empty shell Wing Chun until they find out that it is incomplete, the hard way, by getting hurt.

Oh dear again.
And what makes you the judge of "empty shell" WC?
Your mastery of combat via your "complete" WC??

They involve specialist training and understanding of body unity, as well as "softness", finetuned "listening" and "sensitivity" abilities.

All of these attributes are found in BJJ, MT etc.
What makes TCMA so special??

You need to do more research, even if it involves asking real kung fu masters. I mean you live in the UK for god's sake and there are at least two real masters there who you could research with

You need to get in a ring with a boxer/MT/BJJ guy and realise what a straw house you live in

[Hardwork108]

Oh dear.
How do you measure someones "emptiness" Spencer??
You should ask Spencer, as I am not him.


Im betting combat effectiveness isnt something you use as a yardstick

Actually, Spencer has attended a Wing Chun seminar given by my sifu. Perhaps you should ask him wether he thought that my sifu was combat "ineffective"?



The majority if people that leave/supplement TCMA are usually looking for a more realistic, measurable combat effective system or training method.
And that is because they are training a given TCMA style INCOMPLETELY, without among other things taking into account the Internal dimensions of the art!

Hence what they are learning is at least partly, ineffective, meaning that they search "outside", presumably like you have done by training in Western Boxing and MT.......


And please let us know what styles are "irrelevant" or "largely empty shells"?

When I said "irrelevant", I did not mean irrelevant to fighting, I meant irrelevant to a given style of TCMA which one is meant to be "improving".

For example, cross training in an art that has contradicting rooting and tension principles to your core "kung fu" art. Then turning around and saying that you are still training that particular style of kung fu in an "improved" manner.

Largely empty shell styles are TCMAs that are taught by clueless people who call themselves "sifus". People who are not aware of the Internal (and often , even technical) dimensions of the art they are supposed to be teaching. In the past (and the present) I refer to such people (and their students) as Glorified Kickboxers!



Oh dear again.
And what makes you the judge of "empty shell" WC?
Access to proper kung fu tuition, and not just in the WC style of Kung Fu.

Your mastery of combat via your "complete" WC??
When you achieve your mastery of combat, then let me know!



All of these attributes are found in BJJ, MT etc.
What makes TCMA so special??
And this where your misunderstanding of the level of "sensitiveness" discussed is showing through, mainly because you have not been exposed to it through your normal training.

You have trained your WC in an external manner and no, no one is denying that there is sensitivity and "listening" involved in external arts. However the levels and the perception involved is at very much higher level.

Achieving this kind of sensitivity (and body unity seen in arts such as the Hakka ones), will open a world of possibilities as regards TCMA techniques, which according to popular belief among the kung fu-clueless, "don't work in real life"!


You need to get in a ring with a boxer/MT
Why would I want to fight them in their own battlefield? Has everyone here missed the point of kung fu training, (not to mention, the related Art of War)???

/BJJ guy and realise what a straw house you live in

Last time I mentioned the "ring" to one of those man-grapplers, he jumped up with joy, thinking that I was proposing marriage. :D

[Hardwork108]

Who would they be ?

I didn't know you lived in the UK :confused:

[Graham H]

Your "humble" opinion is the same as the other, and unfortunately majority, clueless "kung fu-ists" who have become great at learning and mastering half truths as regards the TCMAs.

That's easy for you to say because you are wrapped up in all that BS!! :D

I repeat, those who learn any TCMA on their external merits only are learning nothing but a largely empty "shell" of a given style.

No need to repeat because that means you are increasing the BS by 50%!! pfft!!

That fact alone explains why so many nowadays see the TCMAs lacking and hence look to other styles, including irrelevant, as well as other largely "empty shell" systems to fill in the gaps.

empty shell, empty shell blah blah blah!!

Of course others, will stick to their empty shell Wing Chun until they find out that it is incomplete, the hard way, by getting hurt.

Maybe you should lay off the 1970's Kung Fu movies dude!!!!:D

The fact is that all TCMAs have yin and yang aspects and these go deep. They involve specialist training and understanding of body unity, as well as "softness", finetuned "listening" and "sensitivity" abilities.

Yaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnn!

You need to do more research, even if it involves asking real kung fu masters. I mean you live in the UK for god's sake and there are at least two real masters there who you could research with.!!!

Oh yeah? Where? Because I looked and ended up in having to travel to another country.

You live in a dream world mate and you are part of a large percentage of idiots that think TCMA's can make you into some sort of supreme being where you can easliy beat these "empty shell" martial artists with ease. I've been to see these so called "kung fu masters" and the only thing they are masters of is pulling the wool over peoples eyes by disguising their lack of actual combat conditioning with esoteric nonsense. In order for these people to survive and multiply they need fools like you to beleive in them and then so the BS continues!

Sad is what you are mate!!! If there were such magical internal benefits to TCMA's that can overcome these "empty shells":rolleyes: then where are they? Surley China would have them in their Olympic Team! :D:D:D:D

GH

[WC1277]

Once again a case of different names for the same thing. Shows why English speakers start the majority of wars.....

Awareness of your body and correct instruction, whether by analogy or telling you your doing it wrong a thousand times over, is all you need...

[Hardwork108]

That's easy for you to say because you are wrapped up in all that BS!!

The fact that you refer to methodologies that you do not understand as BS, reflects badly on any remenants of TCMA knowledge you may have, not to mention on your sifu.



No need to repeat because that means you are increasing the BS by 50%!! pfft!!
Sometimes repetition is necessary when you are dealing with people who have no valid point of reference regarding certain TCMA methodologies.


empty shell, empty shell blah blah blah!!
Yep, you got the empty shell bit right.



Maybe you should lay off the 1970's Kung Fu movies dude!!!!:D
Well the subject of the 1970's kung fu movies is always brought up when glorified kickboxers are challenged by TCMA methodologies that they have no concept of. ;)



Yaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnn!
I suggest some chi kung practice to build up your energy and hence get rid of your sleapiness.



Oh yeah? Where? Because I looked and ended up in having to travel to another country.
You don't know how much that statement reveals about your "kung fu quest"...LOL!

Anyway, it must have been tough spending all those hours searching for authentic TCMA practice, through the Yellow Pages.....

You live in a dream world mate and you are part of a large percentage of idiots that think TCMA's can make you into some sort of supreme being
Again, you have gone into the usual Glorified Kickboxer defense mode. If people talk about TCMA methodologies that you are unaware of (and believe me, there are many), then they must be watching too many movies, or believe in "kung fu super powers".

By the way, feel free to show us where I said that TCMA practice can make one into a "supreme" being.:rolleyes:

Again, you and people like you miss the point, and that point is that if you study kung fu, or any discipline for that matter, then you must do so in the way it was designed to be practiced, even if it is "boring" or "does not make sense".

If you pick and choose or study from "sifus" who have butchered a given style, that they themselves have not even begun to understand, let alone master, then you are not actually studying that system, but an EMPTY SHELL!


where you can easliy beat these "empty shell" martial artists with ease.

Again, you are "running for the hills". Where did I say anything about beating people from external or "empty shell" styles?????


I've been to see these so called "kung fu masters" and the only thing they are masters of is pulling the wool over peoples eyes by disguising their lack of actual combat conditioning with esoteric nonsense. In order for these people to survive and multiply they need fools like you to beleive in them and then so the BS continues!

Right now it seems that you and those of the your ilk in this forum, have more experience with such "masters", than I do, hence the clueless comments and over defensiveness. ;)

Why can't people like you contemplate that there a good number TCMA methodologies that you are not aware of, nor have any idea of? Why must you act like you know everything and if you see something that is unfamiliar, then you automatically assume it is "BS".

Why make assumptions like that when your actual TCMA experience is at best, minimal?

Sad is what you are mate!!! If there were such magical internal benefits to TCMA's that can overcome these "empty shells":rolleyes: then where are they?
Can you show us where I mentioned "magical" benefits?

You know for martial artists, a lot of you guys get scared and insecure very quickly!!!

Surley China would have them in their Olympic Team! :D:D:D:D

GH

I wouldn't know, because I do not follow the Chinese Olympic training team's schedule.....:rolleyes:

[GlennR]

You should ask Spencer, as I am not him.
Aplogies to Spencer, the 108 threw me



Actually, Spencer has attended a Wing Chun seminar given by my sifu. Perhaps you should ask him wether he thought that my sifu was combat "ineffective"?

No offence to Spencer, but he admits his focus on WC is not combat, so i wouldnt hold his POV that high.


And that is because they are training a given TCMA style INCOMPLETELY, without among other things taking into account the Internal dimensions of the art!

I'll ask you again. Tell me how you measure this? Tell me what this gives them in relation to combat effectiveness?

Hence what they are learning is at least partly, ineffective, meaning that they search "outside", presumably like you have done by training in Western Boxing and MT.......

So you can direct me to someone that is "complete"?
To have such strong opinions you must surely be complete yourself

For example, cross training in an art that has contradicting rooting and tension principles to your core "kung fu" art. Then turning around and saying that you are still training that particular style of kung fu in an "improved" manner.

So you train solely with your fellow WC partners?


Largely empty shell styles are TCMAs that are taught by clueless people who call themselves "sifus". People who are not aware of the Internal (and often , even technical) dimensions of the art they are supposed to be teaching. In the past (and the present) I refer to such people (and their students) as Glorified Kickboxers!

So i assume you think your way of training is more effective at combat?


When you achieve your mastery of combat, then let me know!

Im effective at what i do... are you?


And this where your misunderstanding of the level of "sensitiveness" discussed is showing through, mainly because you have not been exposed to it through your normal training.

You have trained your WC in an external manner and no, no one is denying that there is sensitivity and "listening" involved in external arts. However the levels and the perception involved is at very much higher level.

How do you know what training ive done?


Achieving this kind of sensitivity (and body unity seen in arts such as the Hakka ones), will open a world of possibilities as regards TCMA techniques, which according to popular belief among the kung fu-clueless, "don't work in real life"!

Tell me of your real world experiences.


Why would I want to fight them in their own battlefield? Has everyone here missed the point of kung fu training, (not to mention, the related Art of War)???

So Kung Fu doesnt work in a ring?


Last time I mentioned the "ring" to one of those man-grapplers, he jumped up with joy, thinking that I was proposing marriage. :D[/QUOTE]

Hilarious....... you should do stand up

[Hardwork108]

No offence to Spencer, but he admits his focus on WC is not combat, so i wouldnt hold his POV that high.

His focus may not be combat, but he is a martial artist and I doubt that he is training kung fu as a dance. He is also an instructor. This means that you should give credence to his opinions in that regard!



I'll ask you again. Tell me how you measure this? Tell me what this gives them in relation to combat effectiveness?
I measure this by their own uniformed comments and dismissals of anything remotely "different" to what they have been exposed to.

As for combat effectiveness, then you can get it in various ways. So, I am not saying that you can only get it through traditional kung fu training!

What I am saying is that if you get it through MMA and kickboxing training, then don't refer to what you do as TCMA, or Wing Chun, as the case may be, just because you may be using some form of "Central Line Theory" or train "chi sao".

That is my point, not wether one methodology is more combat effective than another.



So you can direct me to someone that is "complete"?

Look, any major kung fu style will deal with all ranges of fighting, in one way or the other. They will also have Internal, as well as External aspects, that would have to be understood and mastered.

That is what makes properly taught TCMA styles "complete". Does that mean that they will have all the techniques under the sun? NO it doesn't, but they won't go "hey my style does not teach me to defend against a take down, therefore I will need to study Judo" !!!


To have such strong opinions you must surely be complete yourself

You are putting words in my mouth like Graham H. However, the WC I study is "complete" in the way I described above and so is the Chow Gar.



So you train solely with your fellow WC partners?

To get good foundations in the art one must primarily train with people within the system. Then afterwards, the world is your oister.

One more thing. The notion that a WC practioners has to practice/fight with everyother style on the planet, to be able to defeat them through being familiar with them, shows little understanding of the significance of this principle based system.

I am not necessarily saying that cross testing is not a good thing, what I am saying is that before one cross-tests, one should understand the system holistically
, that way he won't think that something is broke if he "hits an obstacle" when cross testing, before he is ready, and then going on to blame ALL TCMA methodologies under the sun and even the "1970s kung fu movies"...........



So i assume you think your way of training is more effective at combat?

NO, my way of training will enable me to use KUNG FU to defend myself, while incomplete or crosstrained systems will be using not much more than kickboxing techniques to achieve the same ends.

My issue is with people who refer to glorified kickboxing methodologies as TCMA, or even worse, when theys see what they do as "improved" TCMA....

How can one improve a TCMA style if one has not REALLY studied it enough build a solid understanding in it????


Im effective at what i do... are you?

I have good reason to believe that I am. Again, there are many people who are effective fighers who train in many other MAs. My issue is that most kung fu that is taught nowadays is incomplete.

Most people do not have an idea of the scope of the TCMA internals and hence ridicule it, yet while they do so, they are ready to criticise shortcomings in their own "kung fu" training, which is ironically and more often than not, is the result of them missing out on the Internal aspects (among other things).




How do you know what training ive done?

Your lack of "appreciation" of what I really mean by "sensitivity", "listening" and "sotness", gives me a pretty good idea of your training, so does your opinion regarding the internals.


Tell me of your real world experiences.

I am posting in kung fu forum about my real kung fu training experiences. If you like to discuss street fighting or sports fighting, you are free to do so in related forums.


So Kung Fu doesnt work in a ring?
If you train kung fu for the ring, then it will work in the ring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrJPEJStNb4&feature=related

However, I am not training to be a sports fighter!!




Hilarious....... you should do stand up

I am funny, and I know it, however I could not hold a candle to most of you guys as regards humor, specially when you are attempting to discuss the TCMAs........hilarious, just hilarious....:D

[GlennR]

His focus may not be combat, but he is a martial artist and I doubt that he is training kung fu as a dance. He is also an instructor. This means that you should give credence to his opinions in that regard!

Nonsense. You value his opinion as he has the same way of thinking as you.

I measure this by their own uniformed comments and dismissals of anything remotely "different" to what they have been exposed to.

As for combat effectiveness, then you can get it in various ways. So, I am not saying that you can only get it through traditional kung fu training!

What I am saying is that if you get it through MMA and kickboxing training, then don't refer to what you do as TCMA, or Wing Chun, as the case may be, just because you may be using some form of "Central Line Theory" or train "chi sao".

That is my point, not wether one methodology is more combat effective than another.

And i ask again.... how do you measure the outcomes of what you practise?


That is what makes properly taught TCMA styles "complete". Does that mean that they will have all the techniques under the sun? NO it doesn't, but they won't go "hey my style does not teach me to defend against a take down, therefore I will need to study Judo" !!!

Ok, so what does this complete KF exponent do against a take down??
Cry?
I dont think you understand the meaning of complete, is there a chinese version you get?

You are putting words in my mouth like Graham H. However, the WC I study is "complete" in the way I described above and so is the Chow Gar.

Youre telling everyone how complete you are, why not wear the crown proudly




To get good foundations in the art one must primarily train with people within the system. Then afterwards, the world is your oister.

One more thing. The notion that a WC practioners has to practice/fight with everyother style on the planet, to be able to defeat them through being familiar with them, shows little understanding of the significance of this principle based system.

Have you tested those principles yourself?


NO, my way of training will enable me to use KUNG FU to defend myself, while incomplete or crosstrained systems will be using not much more than kickboxing techniques to achieve the same ends.

My issue is with people who refer to glorified kickboxing methodologies as TCMA, or even worse, when theys see what they do as "improved" TCMA....

How can one improve a TCMA style if one has not REALLY studied it enough build a solid understanding in it????

How do you know what they'll use?
And how can you espouse purity of system while doing WC & Chow Gar??
Isnt that cross training?


I have good reason to believe that I am. Again, there are many people who are effective fighers who train in many other MAs. My issue is that most kung fu that is taught nowadays is incomplete.

Ill ask again, how have you tested this?


Your lack of "appreciation" of what I really mean by "sensitivity", "listening" and "sotness", gives me a pretty good idea of your training, so does your opinion regarding the internals.

Okayyy. So i make a comment about most martial arts having those skills and you instantly tag me.
And what opinion do i have of internals?
Seeing as you know what ive done so well id "appreciate" it of you could tell me more

I am posting in kung fu forum about my real kung fu training experiences. If you like to discuss street fighting or sports fighting, you are free to do so in related forums.

My apologies. I didnt realise we cant talk about fighting here

If you train kung fu for the ring, then it will work in the ring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrJPEJStNb4&feature=related

However, I am not training to be a sports fighter!!

Can you highlight the internal techiques there?


I am funny, and I know it, however I could not hold a candle to most of you guys as regards humor, specially when you are attempting to discuss the TCMAs........hilarious, just hilarious....:D

Dont sell yourself short........... youre a great little chuckle

[Graham H]

The fact that you refer to methodologies that you do not understand as BS, reflects badly on any remenants of TCMA knowledge you may have, not to mention on your sifu.

Does it really?? If what you write is TCMA knowledge then I'm glad I dont have any of it!!;)

Yep, you got the empty shell bit right.

I'm worried about some of the things that are in your head. I prefer empty shell!!


Well the subject of the 1970's kung fu movies is always brought up when glorified kickboxers are challenged by TCMA methodologies that they have no concept of. ;)

Show me some proof of TCMA please. Then I can see myself. Put some money where your mouth is!!


I suggest some chi kung practice to build up your energy and hence get rid of your sleapiness.

My brother teaches and practices Chi Kung. I know all about that stuff and whilst Chi Kung (like yoga) has many health benefits, it has nothing to do with fighting. I woud hazzard a guess that if you breathed on me I would be sparko!!:D

You don't know how much that statement reveals about your "kung fu quest"...LOL!

What are we talking about here??? I have knowledge of the WSL system of Kung Fu. I'm not interested in what you write or your TCMA's. I think you are giving them a bad name to be honest.

Anyway, it must have been tough spending all those hours searching for authentic TCMA practice, through the Yellow Pages.....

Didnt need the yellow pages. I went and found a good Teacher after much trial and error rather than speculate and make rough guesses based on video and internet posts ike most do on this forum.

Again, you have gone into the usual Glorified Kickboxer defense mode. If people talk about TCMA methodologies that you are unaware of (and believe me, there are many), then they must be watching too many movies, or believe in "kung fu super powers".

Better kickboxer than TCMA dreamer!!!!

By the way, feel free to show us where I said that TCMA practice can make one into a "supreme" being.:rolleyes:

Thats how you come across mate!!! Maybe you should read your posts back to yourself and take your hand out your pants!!!

Again, you and people like you miss the point, and that point is that if you study kung fu, or any discipline for that matter, then you must do so in the way it was designed to be practiced, even if it is "boring" or .................................................. .................................................. .........

I'll stop responding there because boring is how I find your posts!!

:confused:

GH

[SimonM]

I don't think so. What do you think? Back it up with theories and actual fact, not preference or fond wishes.

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

Internal / External is a false dichotomy. So, in short, no. :D

[Hendrik]

my take is

故人已散 留你在身旁
錯過了時光錯過了欣賞
擦肩而過的人是悲傷

[Graham H]

请以英文

:rolleyes:

GH

[Hendrik]

My brother teaches and practices Chi Kung. I know all about that stuff and whilst Chi Kung (like yoga) has many health benefits, it has nothing to do with fighting.


GH



What type of Chi Kung? any website?

[SimonM]

请以英文

:rolleyes:

GH

Hendrik believes he has more authority on martial arts if he only uses 中文
Just ignore him. He has nothing worthwhile to contribute but if you disagree with him he'll declare you an enemy of whatever martial art you are discussing after spending considerable time throwing around insults.

Worse than a troll. At least trolls are funny. :rolleyes:

[Graham H]

Hendrik believes he has more authority on martial arts if he only uses 中文
Just ignore him. He has nothing worthwhile to contribute but if you disagree with him he'll declare you an enemy of whatever martial art you are discussing after spending considerable time throwing around insults.

Worse than a troll. At least trolls are funny. :rolleyes:

LOL......good point!!!

GH

[Hendrik]

For those who wants to know IMA


http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1113225&postcount=245


hope someone with good chinese and english could translate it.

[Hardwork108]

Nonsense. You value his opinion as he has the same way of thinking as you.

Of course I value his opinion (and so should you), but that does not change the fact that he is a TCMA teacher and hence his opinion as regards another sifu would be credible.



And i ask again.... how do you measure the outcomes of what you practise?

It feels right. I am stronger and more confident and have had a steady increase in my abilities. Furthermore, the best way to really measure your combat effectiveness is to put yourself in a situation where somebody is out to basically kill or maim you and most of us have lives to live where that kind of "testing" is counterproductive, so we stick to realistic class sparring, or as in the case of others, cross train to spar with other styles. Hey, whatever makes them happy. LOL




Ok, so what does this complete KF exponent do against a take down??
Believe it or not, some TCMAs do address the ground scenario by fighting on the ground.

Other TCMAs address the ground by techniques designed to NOT go to the ground, or to get up as soon as possible if they are taken down. This may sound like rocket science to you, but there is not fantasy about it.

To prevent being taken down the fine tuned sensitivity and listening abilities will see the take down coming and will "hit first" (by the way, the quotation is a reference to a very well known TCMA concept). Of course, hitting first will do nothing to stop a takedown if one does not have the delivery base, including given body unity principles and training that will give one the SHOCK POWER, as seen in styles such as Chow Gar southern mantis. Wing Chun has its own version of short power, which is not as powerful as the Mantis one (IMHO).


Cry?

Of course, because there are no takedowns in TCMAs and there have never ever been wrestling arts in China. If anyone says otherwise, then he is lying. If anyone tells you that there are takedown techniques in the TCMAs, they are lying too. So the masters of old China never knew what takedowns were, that is why their kung fu "decendentes" will "cry" if someone tries to take them down with a judo or BJJ technique, whose origins can be traced,not to China, but to Shmucksville, Australia........:rolleyes:


I dont think you understand the meaning of complete, is there a chinese version you get?

On the contrary, I have stated clearly what I mean by "complete". All you have to do is read that post, a few times.



Youre telling everyone how complete you are, why not wear the crown proudly

Where did I say that I am "complete"?:confused:




Have you tested those principles yourself?

If you mean if I have gone out and had real fights (because that is the way that you will ulitibmately test any MA) with every other style on the planet, then NO!

However, it is evident that I have had better instruction and hence a better understanding of these principles than you.

By the way, have you studied this art properly and then gone on to test all of the principles in question, and failed??? LOL




How do you know what they'll use?
I know what they won't use, if they have gone on to mix their art with irrelevant styles that may perhaps use diffent power mechanics.

It is really silly when you do not understand relatively simple concept of not mixing styles that may have contradictory principles and concepts, as regards things like rooting, relaxation/tension mechanics in relation to delivery of power, etc.


And how can you espouse purity of system while doing WC & Chow Gar??
Well, here is a news flash for you. WC and Chow Gar share a lot of common ground. You mean you didn't even guess that?:eek:

Isnt that cross training?
It might just be called relevant cross training. ;) Actually, let me add that in a prefect world I would have finished the WC system and then gone on to increase my kung fu knowledge by studying other systems, however, I had to move and the only genuine kung fu school that I came across was the Chow gar one, and thank god for that, because the sifu in question opened my eyes to methodologies that most people can't even imagine that exist.




Ill ask again, how have you tested this?
My personal testing has been within the confines of the kwoon. I have kung fu brothers who have tested outside and with success I might add.

You will have to just face it that your idea of kung fu and its supposed shortcomings are limited to your experience and many others who have studied incompletely. So, in your case, any kind of cross training may be an improvement, even irrelevant ones.....




Okayyy. So i make a comment about most martial arts having those skills and you instantly tag me.
And what opinion do i have of internals?
Seeing as you know what ive done so well id "appreciate" it of you could tell me more

Don't know what you have done, but based on your own statements, I am pretty sure that you have NOT done any Internal practice. I mean you don't even believe they exist...LOL



My apologies. I didnt realise we cant talk about fighting here
We were not really discussing fighting, as such. We were discussing the often misunderstood discipline of TCMA(s), because of the fact that most people are exposed to them in an incomplete manner, leading to them making clueless conclusions and assumptions about their scope. So, far you are proving my point.;)


Can you highlight the internal techiques there?

Actually, that is the sports fighting (so beloved in this forum) manifestation of TCMAs. If you know so much about Internals, then you would know that some of the subtlities are not visible to the unlooker. I don't even know what the core style of the Chinese fighter was, but I know that for sports fighting, his emphasis would have been more on the External.

Having said that, you can see that the Chinese fighter looks more relaxed and fluid than his Japanese counterpart. These both qualities that are associated witht the internals. However, and again, in the sports arena, the skills gained from the relatively short term External methodolgies are more relevant.




Dont sell yourself short........... youre a great little chuckle

Hey, I am just doing my best to pay you guys back for all the laughter you keep providing me. Thanks for appreciating. ;):D

[Hardwork108]

Does it really?? If what you write is TCMA knowledge then I'm glad I dont have any of it!!;)
Yes, don't worry and be happy, and continue posting cluelessly in a TCMA FORUM! LOL!



I'm worried about some of the things that are in your head. I prefer empty shell!!
Of course you do. After all, you are the one that has invested years of your life studying the empty shell version of Wing Chun. Perhaps you, just like most people here, cannot handle the truth?




Show me some proof of TCMA please. Then I can see myself. Put some money where your mouth is!!

Wait a minute. You claim to practice a TCMA (last time I looked, Wing Chun WAS a TCMA), you post in a TCMA forum (last time I looked, Kung fu was a TCMA), and you are asking for "proof" of TCMA???? LOL!

Christ, wait til I get my hands on some of those Mcdojo "kung fu-ist sifus" that have churned out hundreds of confused MA-ists like yourself.:mad:



My brother teaches and practices Chi Kung. I know all about that stuff

Interesting. I know and I know of, kung fu masters who have practiced that "stuff" for decades, but they still say that they are still learning and there is a lot more to learn, yet you "know" all that "stuff" because your brother teaches it? You have got some brother there, my boy...LOL!

and whilst Chi Kung (like yoga) has many health benefits, it has nothing to do with fighting. I woud hazzard a guess that if you breathed on me I would be sparko!!:D

Cancel what I said about your brother. You have no idea. However, I will give you a hint. To get to help get to your hightened and fine-tuned sensitivity (which every knucklehead and his grandmother here seems to know about), you will need to calm your mind and rich hightened states of calmness and relaxation, which will in turn lead to a flowing mind. This relaxedness will also help give you what some TCMA-ists call "relaxed power".

Of course, then there are the "hard" chi kung exercises which I will not confuse you with...........



What are we talking about here??? I have knowledge of the WSL system of Kung Fu. I'm not interested in what you write or your TCMA's. I think you are giving them a bad name to be honest.

Well, show me somthing that I wrote that gives TCMAs a bad name!!!



Didnt need the yellow pages. I went and found a good Teacher after much trial and error rather than speculate and make rough guesses based on video and internet posts ike most do on this forum.

And your "good" teacher did not teach you anything about the Internals and the abilities acquired through training them? Interesting.....



Better kickboxer than TCMA dreamer!!!!

It has nothing to do with "dreaming", "fantasies" or "kung fu movies"! The fact is, if you want to learn any discipline then you must find qualified tuition and then do as you are told, and save your opinions for when you have studied and understood the given discipline. It is as simple as that!



Thats how you come across mate!!!

NO I don't! Making references to "kung fu movies" or "fantasy or magic" is a well known defense employed by glorified kickboxers in this forum when they are presented with TCMA methodologies they have no clue of.

Maybe you should read your posts back to yourself and take your hand out your pants!!!

I don't need to read my own posts, as I am the one who writes them and I will keep my hands where they are, I mean who else is going to hold my gun?


I'll stop responding there because boring is how I find your posts!!

:confused:

GH

Correction, you find my posts confusing, but then you are still young and may eventually come across genuine kung fu tuition in the future.

All the best.:D

[Hardwork108]

......Worse than a troll. At least trolls are funny. :rolleyes:

LOL......good point!!!

GH

This is just too funny! LOL, just LOL!

[Hardwork108]

Hendrik believes he has more authority on martial arts if he only uses 中文

It has nothing to do with "authority", it is and has always been about genuine experience, knowlege and perspective regarding the TCMAs and as far as Hendrik is concerned, he has all of that more than most people in this forum PUT TOGETHER.
Sometimes try and understand what he is talking about and you may learn somthing and find yourself enlightened.

After all, on one level that is what such forums are for. ;)

[WC1277]

What is your point Hardwork108!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????

You're literally just arguing schematics that means absolutely nothing other than the good ol' stroke of the Ego....... doesn't sound very internal to this guy.......

[Hardwork108]

What is your point Hardwork108!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????
My point is simple. There is a design to the various styles of TCMA training. Once one decides to train a given style then one better make sure one finds a genuine sifu. Then one trains the style until one has some good understanding of that system before one decides to "improve" it or make clueless comments such as "there is no grappling in TCMAs"; "there is no take down defense in TCMAs";

On the other hand when one has not come across genuine TCMA tuition then he has to accept that, instead going into denial and saying that what he knows is authentic, to give credibility to his take on the so called short comings of TCMAs.

Remember, to really understand a major TCMA style takes mahy years of SERIOUS study, yet some of these characters, having studied in a mediocre school of a single style of kung fu, come here and make sweeping declarations about all TCMAs.



You're literally just arguing schematics that means absolutely nothing other than the good ol' stroke of the Ego....... doesn't sound very internal to this guy.......

I have nothing to be egostical about. I am simply a TCMA student and my experience has been with serious sifus, so I am calling it the way I am seeing it. :)

[WC1277]

Hardwork108,

First off, I'm sure everyone thinks they've learned from "serious" Sifus. There are more legitimate ones than others, don't get me wrong.

Second, even if a particular TCMA 'is' complete, there are going to be weaknesses within that system. Just because say there's a counter against a round house for instance, doesn't mean it's the most efficient way of doing or training it. I'm not advocating MMA by any means, just saying that when a system is "complete", so to speak, just means you can handle "most" situations somewhat effectively, but it would be ignorant to think you can handle all unless you were in some sort of Jet Li or Jackie Chan movie

[GlennR]

Of course I value his opinion (and so should you), but that does not change the fact that he is a TCMA teacher and hence his opinion as regards another sifu would be credible.

Im glad you value his opinion but ,once again, you value it ashe has the same approach as you. Youve just confirmed that again.


It feels right. I am stronger and more confident and have had a steady increase in my abilities.

Finally, an answer.

Furthermore, the best way to really measure your combat effectiveness is to put yourself in a situation where somebody is out to basically kill or maim you and most of us have lives to live where that kind of "testing" is counterproductive, so we stick to realistic class sparring, or as in the case of others, cross train to spar with other styles. Hey, whatever makes them happy. LOL


So your sparring consists of fellow classmates only?

Believe it or not, some TCMAs do address the ground scenario by fighting on the ground.

Other TCMAs address the ground by techniques designed to NOT go to the ground, or to get up as soon as possible if they are taken down. This may sound like rocket science to you, but there is not fantasy about it.

To prevent being taken down the fine tuned sensitivity and listening abilities will see the take down coming and will "hit first" (by the way, the quotation is a reference to a very well known TCMA concept). Of course, hitting first will do nothing to stop a takedown if one does not have the delivery base, including given body unity principles and training that will give one the SHOCK POWER, as seen in styles such as Chow Gar southern mantis. Wing Chun has its own version of short power, which is not as powerful as the Mantis one (IMHO).

You stated earlier that some TCMA's DONT have a defense against a take down.
My question stands.... what do they do then?


Of course, because there are no takedowns in TCMAs and there have never ever been wrestling arts in China. If anyone says otherwise, then he is lying. If anyone tells you that there are takedown techniques in the TCMAs, they are lying too. So the masters of old China never knew what takedowns were, that is why their kung fu "decendentes" will "cry" if someone tries to take them down with a judo or BJJ technique, whose origins can be traced,not to China, but to Shmucksville, Australia........:rolleyes:

And again... you were the one saying that there is no takedown defense in some TCMA's..... i merely commented on your statement
Oh, and that's Realisticville, Australia

On the contrary, I have stated clearly what I mean by "complete". All you have to do is read that post, a few times.

No, you just keep saying it... saying it over and over doesnt make it so

Where did I say that I am "complete"?:confused:

By sitting there at your PC, telling everyone how incomplete (in regards to their WC training) half the WC people in the world are, you must feel you come from a level of Authority.... in other words YOU are complete
Otherwise, you have no right to.


If you mean if I have gone out and had real fights (because that is the way that you will ulitibmately test any MA) with every other style on the planet, then NO!

OK, have you had ANY fights with any other MA.. ever??

However, it is evident that I have had better instruction and hence a better understanding of these principles than you.

Ummmmm..... no

By the way, have you studied this art properly and then gone on to test all of the principles in question, and failed??? LOL


Yes, constantly. Thats how i improve
Didnt Yip Man once famously say "go and try for yourself"??
Seriously..... do you? Outside your Kwoon?


I know what they won't use, if they have gone on to mix their art with irrelevant styles that may perhaps use diffent power mechanics.

Yet you mix 2 styles with different power generation?
Are you a better learner than everyone else?

It is really silly when you do not understand relatively simple concept of not mixing styles that may have contradictory principles and concepts, as regards things like rooting, relaxation/tension mechanics in relation to delivery of power, etc.

As per my above quote

Well, here is a news flash for you. WC and Chow Gar share a lot of common ground. You mean you didn't even guess that?:eek:

2 arms, 2 legs.......... its all the same in the end

It might just be called relevant cross training. ;) Actually, let me add that in a prefect world I would have finished the WC system and then gone on to increase my kung fu knowledge by studying other systems, however, I had to move and the only genuine kung fu school that I came across was the Chow gar one, and thank god for that, because the sifu in question opened my eyes to methodologies that most people can't even imagine that exist.

So you were going to finish WC and then go on to learn other KF styles.
Thats not the TCMA mantra that you push. The traditionalist you claim to be would adhere to one style as they feel they are never finished.
Or do you know better than YM, TST, WSL etc?


My personal testing has been within the confines of the kwoon. I have kung fu brothers who have tested outside and with success I might add.

Private fight club is it?

You will have to just face it that your idea of kung fu and its supposed shortcomings are limited to your experience and many others who have studied incompletely. So, in your case, any kind of cross training may be an improvement, even irrelevant ones.....

Everyone is limited by their experiences regardless of what endeavour they pursue. I and a lot of people on this forum recognise this, you choose to ignore that..... its a free world i guess


Don't know what you have done, but based on your own statements, I am pretty sure that you have NOT done any Internal practice. I mean you don't even believe they exist...LOL

Where did i say that?


We were not really discussing fighting, as such. We were discussing the often misunderstood discipline of TCMA(s), because of the fact that most people are exposed to them in an incomplete manner, leading to them making clueless conclusions and assumptions about their scope. So, far you are proving my point.;)

So its the journey and not the destination that concerns you most. Thats fine, and thats your choice, but some people are worried more about the result (destination) , whilst others wonder aimlessly..... lost


Actually, that is the sports fighting (so beloved in this forum) manifestation of TCMAs. If you know so much about Internals, then you would know that some of the subtlities are not visible to the unlooker. I don't even know what the core style of the Chinese fighter was, but I know that for sports fighting, his emphasis would have been more on the External.


Then why put it up as an example?

Having said that, you can see that the Chinese fighter looks more relaxed and fluid than his Japanese counterpart. These both qualities that are associated witht the internals. However, and again, in the sports arena, the skills gained from the relatively short term External methodolgies are more relevant.

So relaxed and fluid is internal? Floyd Mayweather must be mega-internal then

[anerlich]

So your sparring consists of fellow classmates only?

Yeah, but they're all either dead or maimed :rolleyes:

[Hendrik]

seriously, perhaps everyone could share what they means by Internal. I think if people get a real understanding on what is internal training as it is there will be no arguement.

it is just a communication issue. there is no real issue.

[GlennR]

seriously, perhaps everyone could share what they means by Internal. I think if people get a real understanding on what is internal training as it is there will be no arguement.

it is just a communication issue. there is no real issue.



Priceless from someone who just put up a post in Chinese

[Hendrik]

Priceless from someone who just put up a post in Chinese


one cannot avoid those chinese post because one needs to based everything solidly with evidence in Chinese classical.

[GlennR]

one cannot avoid those chinese post because one needs to based everything solidly with evidence in Chinese classical.



So unless you can speak/read chinese youll never get it hey??

Us poor gwailos wasting our time?

[Hendrik]

So unless you can speak/read chinese youll never get it hey??

Us poor gwailos wasting our time?



Those things needs to be make public so the westerner knows its present. then translation will come

without knowing those stuffs exist, it is real hopeless for the west to know what is going on.



evidentally 90% of what being said on internal training and Qi in the west is misleading due to it is too fuzzy.

[GlennR]

Those things needs to be make public so the westerner knows its present. then translation will come

without knowing those stuffs exist, it is real hopeless for the west to know what is going on.



evidentally 90% of what being said on internal training and Qi in the west is misleading due to it is too fuzzy.



See thats the thing.... after god knows how many years of "translation", the internalists/east cant prove anything. Not a thing.

Wheres the results?

[Hendrik]

See thats the thing.... after god knows how many years of "translation", the internalists/east cant prove anything. Not a thing.

Wheres the results?



you dont know the process. you cant train, you cant train, you dont get result. simple.


and no one owe anything to you, and no one needs to prove anything to you. it is great to keep you not knowing and blind. that is no interest to show you anything is the agenda of the business world. you pay for what you want. Thus, if you keep push away the facts you stuck and that is your own problem.

[GlennR]

you dont know the process. you cant train, you cant train, you dont get result. simple.


and no one owe anything to you, and no one needs to prove anything to you. it is great to keep you not knowing and blind. that is no interest to show you anything is the agenda of the business world. Thus, if you keep push away the facts you stuck and that is your own problem.



Keep your elitist lectures to yourself.
If you dont/cant explain the advantages of internal training, then dont tell people that your WC training will be lacking without it.

As you did in a previous post.

[Hendrik]

It has nothing to do with "authority", it is and has always been about genuine experience, knowlege and perspective regarding the TCMAs and as far as Hendrik is concerned, he has all of that more than most people in this forum PUT TOGETHER.
Sometimes try and understand what he is talking about and you may learn somthing and find yourself enlightened.

After all, on one level that is what such forums are for. ;)


Yup, that got nothing to do with authority but facts. not everyone's piece of cake.

[Hardwork108]

Im glad you value his opinion but ,once again, you value it ashe has the same approach as you. Youve just confirmed that again.

First of all, it has nothing to do with us having the "same approach". Spencer is a Wing Chun, read MARTIAL ARTS TEACHER. So just because his focal point is not getting in the ring and getting brain damage every other day, does not mean that he cannot recognize martial merit!

Secondly, how do you know if him and I have the same approach? Is it because we have 108 after our names....LOL!


Finally, an answer.

You should have known that answer before you had asked the question.;)



So your sparring consists of fellow classmates only?

Yes, but that is not valid sparring, because we use pillows as weapons, whereas the kickboxers in this forum use their deadly fists.:rolleyes:



You stated earlier that some TCMA's DONT have a defense against a take down.
My question stands.... what do they do then?

Where did I make that statement? All fighting arts should have a defense against the takedown. That is what fighting is all about, which is putting or taking someone down. LOL




And again... you were the one saying that there is no takedown defense in some TCMA's..... i merely commented on your statement
Oh, and that's Realisticville, Australia

You must have misread that OR may have not put my point down in a unclear manner.



No, you just keep saying it... saying it over and over doesnt make it so

It does not make it so for you as you have no point of reference. Major TCMA styles cover all ranges and they do so using Internal and External approaches. How Internal or Extranal will depend on the particular style and/or lineage.


By sitting there at your PC, telling everyone how incomplete (in regards to their WC training) half the WC people in the world are, you must feel you come from a level of Authority.... in other words YOU are complete

Unfortunately for you it is a lot more than the half of the WC world.

Also, would sitting on my keyboard and saying that half, or more of the world eat junk food, "tell" everyone that I am a gourmet chef?


Otherwise, you have no right to.

I have right, just like you to put down my observations in a kung fu forum. It is not rocket science, most people who think they are studying kung fu, are NOT doing so, they are learning half (read, incomplete) truths.

The Mcdojo phenomenon has something to do with this as well. ;)




OK, have you had ANY fights with any other MA.. ever??

No I have not. I study an authentic fighting art that was designed to adapt and destroy. I am not studying an incomplete art where I have to run along to search and fill in the gaps. Actually, I am taking about two arts. And if you find Wing Chun confusing, god knows what will happen to your sense of "TCMA knowledge" if I present you some Chow Gar concepts (which I won't!). LOL!



Ummmmm..... no

Ummmmmmmmmmmm, guess again!



Yes, constantly. Thats how i improve
Didnt Yip Man once famously say "go and try for yourself"??
Seriously..... do you? Outside your Kwoon?

Yip Man was right. The go and try should happen after you have understood the system, not because some "sifu" gives you a piece of paper saying that you have understood it. That way, you won't take every combat set back as black mark on your style or school, but perhaps as a black mark on your own TCMA abilities.... ;)



Yet you mix 2 styles with different power generation?
Are you a better learner than everyone else?

I explained to you what led to the situation of me "mixing" the styles. Furthermore and luckily, I had enough understanding of WC when I started Chow Gar, to not confuse the two too much. See, simple if you follow certain logical steps. Also, don't forget that the two styles overlap, not too much, but they have enough in common to not creat too man problems.




2 arms, 2 legs.......... its all the same in the end

Again,you are now showing a lack of a beyond the superficial understanding of both styles.

It is intersting that you say "2 arms and 2 legs........its all the same in the end", because that will raise the question to why you should cross train when the person you will be facing will always have two arms and two legs?

Why not stick to a profound style that covers all ranges of fighting? Well, I guess in most people's case is that they have not found a genuine sifu to teach them the profound art! That would be an honest and accpetable answer.



So you were going to finish WC and then go on to learn other KF styles.
Thats not the TCMA mantra that you push. The traditionalist you claim to be would adhere to one style as they feel they are never finished.
Or do you know better than YM, TST, WSL etc?

You misunderstand. You will never finish you kung fu studies but you can compete a style and understand its concepts and principles (in application). Each style you master will take you some steps further. Or you can stick to one style of kung fu and carry out your journey in that way.




Private fight club is it?

Not that private. We let the kickboxers in to clean the club afterwards...:D



Everyone is limited by their experiences regardless of what endeavour they pursue. I and a lot of people on this forum recognise this, you choose to ignore that..... its a free world i guess

I don't ignore my limitations, I am just pointing out the limitations of people who have not really trained any TCMA style validly, coming into forums such as this one and telling everyone about their opinions of the "interals", "forms practice", "IP" and others, in a negative manner.

To criticize the TCMAs one needs valid points of refenrece. The fact is that most people here in this forum, do not have that, no matter how good they are at fighting in the "ring" with their BJJ and MT techniques....

Please try to undertand what I am saying.




Where did i say that?

Here is one:

So tell me, what measurable results will this internal get you??

Why ask, if you know that they exist?

This is your answer to someone else's post:

So yes Wing Chun I think is one of the most direct simplest method to build your house. You will still need the guidence of one that can show how the tools need to be used or else you will always just being doing external Wing Chun.
Can you tell me someone that could teach me this?



Can you tell me someone that could teach me this?

YOu are trying to catch the guy out as regards a methodology that you don't think exists. Or is it that you have finally decided to study the Internals? LOL

So its the journey and not the destination that concerns you most. Thats fine, and thats your choice, but some people are worried more about the result (destination) , whilst others wonder aimlessly..... lost

You misunderstand AGAIN!

All journies have a destination. I am learning to fight using the TCMAs. You, well I don't don't about what it is that you are up to, but if mix it up in jumble and don't practice any system properly, then it is NOT kung fu! That does not say that you will be a bad fighter, etc, but it says that you cannot refer to what you do as a TCMA!




Then why put it up as an example?

You implied that I said that kung fu could not be used in the ring. So I brought you an example where it can, but it does lose a lot of its essence and richness within the restrictions of sports competitions.



So relaxed and fluid is internal? Floyd Mayweather must be mega-internal then

Just like the Internals overlap the externals, so do the externals that overlap the inbternals.....and you are still missing the point about Internal practice because, and AGAIN, you have no point of reference.

That is why it is always good to stick to what one does best, while careful not to mix up the names, like referring to a kickboxing methodology as TCMA.

[Hardwork108]

Yeah, but they're all either dead or maimed :rolleyes:

I have not yet reached the stage of controlling my immense power. So accidents happen...:D

[GlennR]

No I have not. I study an authentic fighting art that was designed to adapt and destroy. I am not studying an incomplete art where I have to run along to search and fill in the gaps. Actually, I am taking about two arts. And if you find Wing Chun confusing, god knows what will happen to your sense of "TCMA knowledge" if I present you some Chow Gar concepts (which I won't!). LOL!



Yes, thanks for saving me from more theoretical nonsense....

Enjoy your training, im sure it fits you just right

[Hardwork108]

Yes, thanks for saving me from more theoretical nonsense....

Enjoy your training, im sure it fits you just right

Thank you. I knew you would come around....:D

[Hardwork108]

Hardwork108,

First off, I'm sure everyone thinks they've learned from "serious" Sifus.
Well, therein lies the problem. Statistically speaking, the overall majority of kung fu schools (I am talking up to and over 95%) of kung fu schools do not teach the art in a complete manner, mainly because the "sifus" are not really qualified.

There are a few cases where the sifu in question is REAL, but is at the same time choosy as to whom he teaches the more obscure and important stuff. That is fair enough as well.

However, when you come to forums such as this one, then you will see many posters who see kung fu as lacking in combat effectiveness, but they rather blame the whole of the TCMAs, rather than admit that they have been had by their "sifus" or "kung fu" organizations! Hence the common clueless comments - "internals are fantasy", "kung fu is not effective for 'today's' world"; "Iron Skills are fantasy or irrelevant"; "chikung is just 'relaxation exercises"; "Zhan Zhuang training is for your legs and relaxation"; and other 'immortal' foot in the mouth, comments.

What do people do when they see that their core style is lacking? They cross traing. They say, no hook punches in WC, lets do some boxing; "no kicks" in Wing Chun (apparently), lets add Tae Kwon Do; lets do Muay Thai, that is a good one for "real" fighting, etc. etc.

You asked them why they are doing this, they say that Wing Chun needs to be "improved" for modern times.:rolleyes: So it is always the same case, a given kung fu style, or the whole of the TCMAs are lacking, but never the tuition that these people received!

Incidentally, when you get people who have had "great" experience in one style of kung fu, under a mediocre teacher, telling you that the whole of the TCMAs are lacking because they have not seen its "functionality" in sports tournaments, then you just have to seat back and role your eyes.....(:rolleyes:).


There are more legitimate ones than others, don't get me wrong.

IMHO, the legit schools are very, very rare!

Second, even if a particular TCMA 'is' complete, there are going to be weaknesses within that system. Just because say there's a counter against a round house for instance, doesn't mean it's the most efficient way of doing or training it.
The flip side of that argument is that some kung fu defensive and offensive techniques will not work if you have not acquired the correct body unity and short explosive power.

So what happens often is that "sifus" who have not got this ability teach the techniques that only function if you have it. So ultimately we end up with people who say such and such style is not practical for fighting because they see the techniques as impossible to perform successfully.

The issue we are discussing is very complex, to say the least.


I'm not advocating MMA by any means, just saying that when a system is "complete", so to speak, just means you can handle "most" situations somewhat effectively, but it would be ignorant to think you can handle all unless you were in some sort of Jet Li or Jackie Chan movie

Look, we live in a world where we are expected to believe that kung fu grandmasters who developed systems that are effective in most situations, "forgot" to consider the takedown and ground scenario, implying that a high school wrestler could take them down and pound them...lol

Yes, apparently in the old days in China, where wrestling arts were around even before the kung fu ones, no one ever attempted to take down a kung fu master, so they did not realize that these precautions were needed in kung fu styles, some of which date back more than a 1000 years.....

I would suggest to you and others here, not to believe the myths that are spread by the people who are not much more than kickboxers.

If you are lucky enough to study a major kung fu style under an authentic master, then you will not need the "fast food" cross training path, unless you are doing it to expand your knowledge, but only AFTER you have gained good understanding and abilities in your core style.

Personally, speaking I would increase my knowledge by going on to study other Kung Fu styles, because despite popular belief nowadays, all kung fu is not the same. They can be fascinatingly different, even when it comes to their Internals. So, not only the Internals do exist, but there are different types of approaches and concepts as regards things like body unity and power development. All fascinating stuff, and yes they work in fights, as that is why they were developed as martial arts! :)

[Graham H]

Correction, you find my posts confusing, but then you are still young and may eventually come across genuine kung fu tuition in the future.

All the best.:D

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo I can't wait!! :D:rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo I can't wait!! :D:rolleyes:

You know the old saying, "when the student is ready, then the teacher will appear". ;)

However, in your case, I am not holding my breath.:D

[Graham H]

You know the old saying, "when the student is ready, then the teacher will appear". ;)



It already happened mate.......after many teachers before possibly including your own!!! ;) :p

GH

[Hardwork108]

It already happened mate.......after many teachers before possibly including your own!!! ;) :p

GH

Well, go and get your money back. :p

[Graham H]

Well, go and get your money back. :p

Ok then I can come and be your student and the world be be free of BS!! :rolleyes: :D:p

GH

[HumbleWCGuy]

Internal means energy flows both directions, in and out, if only external bigger guy always win.
99.5% of people can only do energy in one direction, they are always expanding out. Running away or moving back is not doing energy in inward direction.

There are numerous examples of smaller guys winning for identifiable reasons: fitness, training, knowledge, athleticism, and technique to name a few. There is no need to bring in the unnecessary abstraction of Chi to explain why they win.

[Hardwork108]

Ok then I can come and be your student and the world be be free of BS!! :rolleyes: :D:p

GH

I am not a sifu.

If you want a world free of BS, then first change yourself enough so that you stop assuming that concepts and principles that you do not understand, must then be, "BS".....;)

[Hardwork108]

There are numerous examples of smaller guys winning for identifiable reasons: fitness, training, knowledge, athleticism, and technique to name a few. There is no need to bring in the unnecessary abstraction of Chi to explain why they win.

You make a valid point, but a smaller guy winning may be due to factors than "soft" winning over "hard", a concept that Internalists are taught from early on.

[HumbleWCGuy]

You make a valid point, but a smaller guy winning may be due to factors than "soft" winning over "hard", a concept that Internalists are taught from early on.

I think that it is a habit of all styles/schools to create a straw man that their techniques always work against. For an MMAist it is the 1980's points-fighting TMAist. For a long time the TMAist talked about defeating the boxer. I guess for an internalist it is a large, stiff fighter who relies upon brute force.

[Graham H]

I am not a sifu.

If you want a world free of BS, then first change yourself enough so that you stop assuming that concepts and principles that you do not understand, must then be, "BS".....;)

Well if you have no authority to teach what you say then why argue with somebody that has??? Weirdo! :rolleyes:

You can find my contact details on Philipp Bayers website just in case you want to pop in for a cuddle sometime!!!

GH

[GlennR]

I am not a sifu.

No way!
Really?

[k gledhill]

I think that it is a habit of all styles/schools to create a straw man that their techniques always work against. For an MMAist it is the 1980's points-fighting TMAist. For a long time the TMAist talked about defeating the boxer. I guess for an internalist it is a large, stiff fighter who relies upon brute force.

Good post. Like inventing situations that just happen to make us untouchable :D

reality is only a few steps outside the gym , utter your four letter word of choice at someone and see the results of your iron armor :D

[YiQuanOne]

Well if you have no authority to teach what you say then why argue with somebody that has??? Weirdo! :rolleyes:

You can find my contact details on Philipp Bayers website just in case you want to pop in for a cuddle sometime!!!

GH

Authority from who?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Good post. Like inventing situations that just happen to make us untouchable :D

reality is only a few steps outside the gym , utter your four letter word of choice at someone and see the results of your iron armor :D

I wish that all schools would get it in their head that they are training to fight the best opponent. We all have that bag of tricks that can help us situationally, but defeating the stiff Karateka, the pure boxer, or the big doofus can't be the focus of anyone's training.

[YiQuanOne]

Well, therein lies the problem. Statistically speaking, the overall majority of kung fu schools (I am talking up to and over 95%) of kung fu schools do not teach the art in a complete manner, mainly because the "sifus" are not really qualified.

There are a few cases where the sifu in question is REAL, but is at the same time choosy as to whom he teaches the more obscure and important stuff. That is fair enough as well.

However, when you come to forums such as this one, then you will see many posters who see kung fu as lacking in combat effectiveness, but they rather blame the whole of the TCMAs, rather than admit that they have been had by their "sifus" or "kung fu" organizations! Hence the common clueless comments - "internals are fantasy", "kung fu is not effective for 'today's' world"; "Iron Skills are fantasy or irrelevant"; "chikung is just 'relaxation exercises"; "Zhan Zhuang training is for your legs and relaxation"; and other 'immortal' foot in the mouth, comments.

What do people do when they see that their core style is lacking? They cross traing. They say, no hook punches in WC, lets do some boxing; "no kicks" in Wing Chun (apparently), lets add Tae Kwon Do; lets do Muay Thai, that is a good one for "real" fighting, etc. etc.

You asked them why they are doing this, they say that Wing Chun needs to be "improved" for modern times.:rolleyes: So it is always the same case, a given kung fu style, or the whole of the TCMAs are lacking, but never the tuition that these people received!

Incidentally, when you get people who have had "great" experience in one style of kung fu, under a mediocre teacher, telling you that the whole of the TCMAs are lacking because they have not seen its "functionality" in sports tournaments, then you just have to seat back and role your eyes.....(:rolleyes:).




IMHO, the legit schools are very, very rare!


The flip side of that argument is that some kung fu defensive and offensive techniques will not work if you have not acquired the correct body unity and short explosive power.

So what happens often is that "sifus" who have not got this ability teach the techniques that only function if you have it. So ultimately we end up with people who say such and such style is not practical for fighting because they see the techniques as impossible to perform successfully.

The issue we are discussing is very complex, to say the least.




Look, we live in a world where we are expected to believe that kung fu grandmasters who developed systems that are effective in most situations, "forgot" to consider the takedown and ground scenario, implying that a high school wrestler could take them down and pound them...lol

Yes, apparently in the old days in China, where wrestling arts were around even before the kung fu ones, no one ever attempted to take down a kung fu master, so they did not realize that these precautions were needed in kung fu styles, some of which date back more than a 1000 years.....

I would suggest to you and others here, not to believe the myths that are spread by the people who are not much more than kickboxers.

If you are lucky enough to study a major kung fu style under an authentic master, then you will not need the "fast food" cross training path, unless you are doing it to expand your knowledge, but only AFTER you have gained good understanding and abilities in your core style.

Personally, speaking I would increase my knowledge by going on to study other Kung Fu styles, because despite popular belief nowadays, all kung fu is not the same. They can be fascinatingly different, even when it comes to their Internals. So, not only the Internals do exist, but there are different types of approaches and concepts as regards things like body unity and power development. All fascinating stuff, and yes they work in fights, as that is why they were developed as martial arts! :)


Well put!.

[Hardwork108]

Well if you have no authority to teach what you say then why argue with somebody that has??? Weirdo! :rolleyes:

Because the world (including this forum) is full of people who have "authority" to teach kung fu. That is one of the problems I keep referring to, one way or the other. Your "authority" means nothing, when what you teach is not authentic kung fu.

You can find my contact details on Philipp Bayers website just in case you want to pop in for a cuddle sometime!!!

GH

The world is also full of people with "kung fu contact details"........I mean how else are they going to get "customers"?

Yes, I have also seen you "Wing Chun" training video in one of the threads here.......no comment!

[Hardwork108]

Authority from who?

YiQuanOne,

Apparently, nowadays there are many kickboxing organizations that give "kung fu" teaching credentials. ;)

[Hardwork108]

No way!
Really?

Really. I see that you are surprised that we both have at least that aspect in common.

[Hardwork108]

I think that it is a habit of all styles/schools to create a straw man that their techniques always work against. For an MMAist it is the 1980's points-fighting TMAist. For a long time the TMAist talked about defeating the boxer. I guess for an internalist it is a large, stiff fighter who relies upon brute force.

That is where many misunderstand the Internals. As long as you are "softer" and more "sensitive" than you opponent, then he is the one who loses for being stiff, even if he happens to be a fellow Internalist.

That is how it works - "soft" will win against "hard" - and this fact should indicate the levels of fine tuned softness and sensitivity that one aims to achieve (not to mention deeper body unity faculties), which goes far beyond the purely chi sao type sensitivity that many Franchise School Wing Chun practitioners are familiar with.

[GlennR]

That is where many misunderstand the Internals. As long as you are "softer" and more "sensitive" than you opponent, then he is the one who loses for being stiff, even if he happens to be a fellow Internalist.

That is how it works - "soft" will win against "hard" - and this fact should indicate the levels of fine tuned softness and sensitivity that one aims to achieve (not to mention deeper body unity faculties), which goes far beyond the purely chi sao type sensitivity that many Franchise School Wing Chun practitioners are familiar with.


Youve never had a fight in your life have you??

[Hardwork108]

Youve never had a fight in your life have you??

You have never actually practiced Kung Fu, have you???

[GlennR]

You have never actually practiced Kung Fu, have you???


Answer a simple question........

[Hardwork108]

Answer a simple question........

Your answer is, yes. Most people have had fights in their lifes, that includes kung fu practioners as well. ;)

Don't bother answering my question, as I know the answer already.

[GlennR]

Your answer is, yes. Most people have had fights in their lifes, that includes kung fu practioners as well. ;)

Don't bother answering my question, as I know the answer already.



Since you started WC?
Or previous

[Hardwork108]

Since you started WC?
Or previous

Both, but to be honest, I had more fights before. I believe the reason might have something to do with the confidence that comes from MA training which discourages a lot of people from picking on you.

Would you like to know what I had for breakfast, as well?

The fact of the matter is that I am being honest with you, but anyone can come here and say that they have had zillions of street fights using whatever MA that they practice and there is no way to prove things either way. That is why I always attempt to limit my conversations to kung fu practice as regards concepts, principles and techniques, whose knowledge one cannot fake as easily as inventing a "fighting history"!

By the way, there are no Youtube videos of my fights, just incase that was your next question....:rolleyes:

[GlennR]

Both, but to be honest, I had more fights before. I believe the reason might have something to do with the confidence that comes from MA training which discourages a lot of people from picking on you.

Would you like to know what I had for breakfast, as well?

The fact of the matter is that I am being honest with you, but anyone can come here and say that they have had zillions of street fights using whatever MA that they practice and there is no way to prove things either way. That is why I always attempt to limit my conversations to kung fu practice as regards concepts, principles and techniques, whose knowledge one cannot fake as easily as inventing a "fighting history"!

By the way, there are no Youtube videos of my fights, just incase that was your next question....:rolleyes:

If you dont like being asked questions, dont get on a forum.

And just beacuse someone asks a simple and valid question, do you feel you need to be smart with "rolling eys" and reference to youtube clips.

[shaolin_allan]

wow this thread has moved off track like every wc thread so far. i had left wc at one point after 8 months believing that northern styles for the most part (believing incorrectly) that the internal arts like xing yi or tai chi had more health benefits to improve my muscle and nerve problems. it was only after I had left I realized that even the first wc form SLT had an amazing amount of qi gong I just was blind to that fact I think even though my sifu told me. It goes to show we should trust in what our sifus say and not only think its because theyre just trying to keep us as students.

[Hardwork108]

If you dont like being asked questions, dont get on a forum.
Again, your question was irrelevant, as I have answered you and you are none the wiser regarding authentic TCMA practice that includes a balance between the External and the Internal and its relevance to combat effectiveness!

And just beacuse someone asks a simple and valid question, do you feel you need to be smart with "rolling eys" and reference to youtube clips.
The question may have been simple, but it was not valid, when we are discussing TCMA methodologies, to which most of the "kung fu tagged" kickboxers who post here, do not have a reference point.

[Graham H]

Yes, I have also seen you "Wing Chun" training video in one of the threads here.......no comment!

Feel free to comment on YouTube with the rest of the negative comments!

[GlennR]

Again, your question was irrelevant, as I have answered you and you are none the wiser regarding authentic TCMA practice that includes a balance between the External and the Internal and its relevance to combat effectiveness!


The question may have been simple, but it was not valid, when we are discussing TCMA methodologies, to which most of the "kung fu tagged" kickboxers who post here, do not have a reference point.


Actually , in hindsight, the question was pointless, as you have no concept of effective combat.... internal, external, chinese or even whatever nationality you are.

You are the consumate martial masturabation expert..... you keep playing with yourself chum

[Hardwork108]

Actually , in hindsight, the question was pointless, as you have no concept of effective combat.... internal, external, chinese or even whatever nationality you are.

Another knee-jerk reaction to hide your lack of genuine TCMA knowledge.

Even so, let me say that that most people who post here probably have a "concept" of fighting and even many of them can probably fight. My issue is that most of them cannot apply TCMA techniques and concepts to combat, and the problem is with THEM and NOT with the TCMAs!!!!!

You are the consumate martial masturabation expert..... you keep playing with yourself chum

Well, so far in this thread, I have been "playing" with the kickboxers. ;)

[Hardwork108]

Feel free to comment on YouTube with the rest of the negative comments!

I have not seen the comments you speak of, because I have not looked. I have just watched the clip. I did not even comment on You Tube, nor here in the particular thread, because I know that it would have "passed you by".

So there was no point in saying anything. However, now that we are on the subject I can just give you a hint and that is, no matter how good your technique is and how fast you are. If you do not have proper kung fu rooting, then you have no kung fu. As always, this does not mean that you can't fight. It just means that you cannot do so using genuine TCMA methodology.

However, I would advise you to distinguish between comments that are constructive criticisms, as opposed to comments that are just negative for the sake of negative, or do you see all criticisms as negative as well?

[Graham H]

I have not seen the comments you speak of, because I have not looked. I have just watched the clip. I did not even comment on You Tube, nor here in the particular thread, because I know that it would have "passed you by".

So there was no point in saying anything. However, now that we are on the subject I can just give you a hint and that is, no matter how good your technique is and how fast you are. If you do not have proper kung fu rooting, then you have no kung fu. As always, this does not mean that you can't fight. It just means that you cannot do so using genuine TCMA methodology.

However, I would advise you to distinguish between comments that are constructive criticisms, as opposed to comments that are just negative for the sake of negative, or do you see all criticisms as negative as well?

If I didnt like negative comments then that clip would not have been posted.

You talk about "kung fu" rooting????? I think you are full of s**t! If kung fu rooting was so effective then boxers and MMA fighters would be using it. Stuck to the floor with mechanical movements as taught in most VT school is BS!! When somebody is trying to land strikes on you then you have to be agile and mobile.

I don't think you have been in a real fight before mate. You live in kung fu dreamland along with a lot of people on this forum. Ving Tsun is about fighting. Fortuneately for me it has got me through many scrapes. No amount of talking and writing can prepare you for that!! It's a shame we live so far apart. I would have no problem in putting my money where my mouth is! ;)

GH

[YiQuanOne]

If I didnt like negative comments then that clip would not have been posted.

You talk about "kung fu" rooting????? I think you are full of s**t! If kung fu rooting was so effective then boxers and MMA fighters would be using it. Stuck to the floor with mechanical movements as taught in most VT school is BS!! When somebody is trying to land strikes on you then you have to be agile and mobile.

I don't think you have been in a real fight before mate. You live in kung fu dreamland along with a lot of people on this forum. Ving Tsun is about fighting. Fortuneately for me it has got me through many scrapes. No amount of talking and writing can prepare you for that!! It's a shame we live so far apart. I would have no problem in putting my money where my mouth is! ;)

GH

Dude, Hardwork108 is trying help you by telling you to pull your head out of the sand!

If MA's is just mechanical movements then genetics will dominate. You will only then be able to beat somebody weaker than you.

Mechanical movement is fine, but it is only a muscle driven motor, their is another motor that is powered by the "Yi mind", and this motor will put the muscle motor on the back burner.

Everyone that is telling you these things also went through the muscle motor stage, but it is not the only stage.

[Graham H]

Dude, Hardwork108 is trying help you by telling you to pull your head out of the sand!

If MA's is just mechanical movements then genetics will dominate. You will only then be able to beat somebody weaker than you.

Mechanical movement is fine, but it is only a muscle driven motor, their is another motor that is powered by the "Yi mind", and this motor will put the muscle motor on the back burner.

Everyone that is telling you these things also went through the muscle motor stage, but it is not the only stage.

Help me??? Get real will you!! If that was all the help that was around I would be playing football instead of kung fu!!! lol

GH

[Sean66]

Stability vs. mobility, strength vs. flexibility, speed vs. slowness....
It's just not realistic to present these qualities as diametrically opposed when speaking about human movement. All movement is a combination of these (and other) factors.

Martial arts training has to help us develop these things in specific ways according to the style, and teach us how to use them judiciously.

A fight is a dynamic situation. The trick is to know in which moment you need stability, and in which mobility. Or perhaps a combination of both at the same time?
For a good shoulder-throw, for example, you'll need the timing and speed to set it up and the stability and flexibility to pull it off.

Fighting a stronger opponent you might need to keep more mobile and flexible, waiting your chance to use angles and leverage against him. Against a weaker one, you can use your strength to run him down.
If you are not able to change according to the situation and the opponent, well, you're making life hard for yourself.

"Kung fu rooting" exercises are not ends unto themselves. Standing post exercises, for example, help in developing the "connectedness" necessary for whole body movement, but their purpose is not to teach us to stay "rooted" to one spot. We perform siu im tao while remaining in the same position in order to reinforce the connection between the hips and shoulders and train the mechanics of the elbow used in directing the lines of force, etc....but we don't just stand there in YJKYM during a fight!

Regarding internal and external: Again, I would say that all movement has both internal and external components. The boxer hitting the heavy bag just doesn't hit it blindly, without thinking....he is hitting it in a specific, learned way, with very specific ideas behind how he executes the movement.

When you do fook sau, what are you thinking about? Are you thinking about covering your training partner's hand with your wrist and forearm in order to control it? Or are your thinking of driving your elbow toward his center? Like Phiipp Bayer stated in the article posted by Kevin, "what you are thinking of while doing the form (SLT) is important."

Intention influences the external form. Nothing magic or esoteric about it. Top athletes and dancers have known for years about the importance of using visualization techniques and meditation to improve their performance.

[YiQuanOne]

It is help in the context of to keep your mind open and keep looking and researching.

[GlennR]

Dude, Hardwork108 is trying help you by telling you to pull your head out of the sand!

If MA's is just mechanical movements then genetics will dominate. You will only then be able to beat somebody weaker than you.

Mechanical movement is fine, but it is only a muscle driven motor, their is another motor that is powered by the "Yi mind", and this motor will put the muscle motor on the back burner.

Everyone that is telling you these things also went through the muscle motor stage, but it is not the only stage.



It IS Mechanical movements..... thats it!

If there was something more, some hidden internal seceret, dont you think all the Pro fighters in would be trying to use it? They would be looking for any advantage they could...... but they dont as its delusional nonsense

[GlennR]

Regarding internal and external: Again, I would say that all movement has both internal and external components. The boxer hitting the heavy bag just doesn't hit it blindly, without thinking....he is hitting it in a specific, learned way, with very specific ideas behind how he executes the movement.


Good post Sean.
Ok, in regards to a correct boxers punch, tell me what are the external attributes and the internal attributes used.

[anerlich]

Good post Sean.
Ok, in regards to a correct boxers punch, tell me what are the external attributes and the internal attributes used.

Glenn,

good Q, but it does require a definition of what delineates the two, and on that opinions vary. wildly.

[YiQuanOne]

It IS Mechanical movements..... thats it!

If there was something more, some hidden internal seceret, dont you think all the Pro fighters in would be trying to use it? They would be looking for any advantage they could...... but they dont as its delusional nonsense

NO, because the training is opposite of external training, and they would not be able to use it until they developed it. Putting boxing gloves on also masks the application.

External strength training will need to be sidelined until you develop the core, then you can train the exterior strength after you get the internal core.

Most people at a young age also don't have the disipline or patience to do the training needed to get the internal core, it also takes many years, and then their window for doing duration events will be past, and they will be wiser by then and will probably not want to compete anyway.

It is not a muscle memory exercise.

[anerlich]

If MA's is just mechanical movements then genetics will dominate.

ALL movements are mechanical.

Genetics only provides a head start. Effective use of skill, strength, and power (internal and external) depend on training and development.

Your argument doesn't fly anyway. If genetics were the primary determinant of effective mechanical movement, why wouldn't it also be the primary determinant of the ability to use "internal power"?

Why is it "force against force, and the strongest wins"and never "ïnternal power against internal power, and so the strongest wins"?"Why is one form of power subject to genetics and physical laws and the other not?

You will only then be able to beat somebody weaker than you.

Not so. Intelligent use of leverage can overcome superior strength less well applied. A purely MECHANICAL concept.

Putting boxing gloves on also masks the application.

OH, rubbish. I suppose you think boxers and HW107.5's glorified kickboxers can't fight bareknuckle?

You need to stop parroting all the crap you read on the net and do some critical thinking. Maybe test out this internal bull**** you've been sold. Take your own advice:

It is help in the context of to keep your mind open and keep looking and researching.

Make sure you have medical insurance first, though.

[GlennR]

External strength training will need to be sidelined until you develop the core, then you can train the exterior strength after you get the internal core.

So you cant be a "fit" internalists??

Most people at a young age also don't have the disipline or patience to do the training needed to get the internal core, it also takes many years, and then their window for doing duration events will be past, and they will be wiser by then and will probably not want to compete anyway.


Thats convenient for your POV

[GlennR]

Not so. Intelligent use of leverage can overcome superior strength less well applied. A purely MECHANICAL concept.

You need to stop parroting all the rubbish you read on the net and do some critical thinking.


Nicely put Andrew.
Shame is, he's not only parroting what he has read, its probably the same where he trains

[YiQuanOne]

So you cant be a "fit" internalists??

Internal will make and keep you healther than external fitness, you still mantain muscle just don't over task them which keeps them from relaxing.


Thats convenient for your POV

That's the way it works. Lifting weights is like damming up energy flow. It creates pools or segments that are not connected. You keep the energy in you and that is why you feel strong, but the energy does not reach your opponent.

[GlennR]

YiQuanOne;1114834]Internal will make and keep you healther than external fitness, you still mantain muscle just don't over task them which keeps them from relaxing.


Thats absolute nonsense.
Lets use the elderly outside of martial arts as a point of discussion
Its been catgorically proven that a weights regime for elderly people improves;
- Movement
- Strength
- Well being
- Vitality
- Heres a link, http://www.cdc.gov/physicalactivity/growingstronger/index.html
Theres scores of these studies.

Quantifiable, measurable results




That's the way it works. Lifting weights is like damming up energy flow. It creates pools or segments that are not connected. You keep the energy in you and that is why you feel strong, but the energy does not reach your opponent.


Oh lord.... further nonsense.
I dont even know where to begin with that

[YiQuanOne]

Thats absolute nonsense.
Lets use the elderly outside of martial arts as a point of discussion
Its been catgorically proven that a weights regime for elderly people improves;
- Movement
- Strength
- Well being
- Vitality
- Heres a link, http://www.cdc.gov/physicalactivity/growingstronger/index.html
Theres scores of these studies.

Quantifiable, measurable results

Well of coase you need to maintain external muscles, but the old people are not doing internal at all, so anything will help them.







Oh lord.... further nonsense.
I dont even know where to begin with that

You can begin by learning something, before you can be able to talk about it.

There are plenty of people here that know what I am talking about, it seems you are not one of them, because you have no experence with what I am telling you.

[anerlich]

You can begin by learning something, before you can be able to talk about it.


You need to take your own advice. you appear to know bugger all about human movement, mechanics, physiology or kinesiology. Or internal TCMA, for that matter.

[anerlich]

Internal will make and keep you healther than external fitness

Source? Evidence? Spelling?

Lifting weights is like damming up energy flow. It creates pools or segments that are not connected. You keep the energy in you and that is why you feel strong, but the energy does not reach your opponent.

LOL, so if your friends (if you have any) ask you to help them move house, I guess you'll be saying no, because lifting furniture and boxes will **** up your chi?

I'm waiting to see an "internal" guy outthrow the deluded iron-pumping shotputters, discus, javelin, and hammer throwers or outsprint the deluded iron-pumping sprinters. Sure, they only "feel" strong.

What moron told you this rubbish? A "master"?

[trubblman]

The power of lifting weights

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eae3_LDysY8&feature=related

[GlennR]

Well of coase you need to maintain external muscles, but the old people are not doing internal at all, so anything will help them.



Can you show me any studies that give real, quantifiable benefits of internal training in relation to older people


You can begin by learning something, before you can be able to talk about it.


This is a WC forum and WC is supposed to be a fighting system. Every "Internal WC" guy i have been exposed to since i started training has fallen way short of the "external (what i call realistic) WC" folks.
So from my experience, you can think that WC is internal, but you are just deluding yourself from the reality that to train it properly you need to like the MT, BJJ, boxers etc.... sparring and conditioning on top of form applications etc.


There are plenty of people here that know what I am talking about, it seems you are not one of them, because you have no experence with what I am telling you.

And theres plenty of people on this forum that couldnt punch there way out of a paper bag..... youd be in that crew as well

[GlennR]

The power of lifting weights

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eae3_LDysY8&feature=related



Wow!

Thats inspirational

[anerlich]

The power of lifting weights

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eae3_...eature=related


She's outlived Cheng Man-ching and Yip Man and if she hit 78 will have outlived Wang Xiangzhai.



Internal will make and keep you healther than external fitness

Only if you wilfully ignore evidence to the contrary.

[Sean66]

This whole external - internal debate is bogus, in my opinion.

Human movement does not exist alone in a void. Even every-day movement and body language is influenced by any number of factors; your cultural/social environment, your pyschological state of mind, your age and sex, etc.

How do you walk down the street when you're depressed? Or when you're on cloud nine after your first kiss from the babe down the block? I think everyone will agree that the movement quality of your walk will be very different in these two cases. Internal psychology influences external mechanics of movement. We experience it every day, in all our actions.

When we talk about martial technique, the connection between internal (intention, will) and external (mechanics, form) becomes even more evident. The very word "technique" when applied to movement presuposes an underlying idea or purpose. One has to make a conscious effort to learn and apply it. And, as I pointed out before in my example of fook sau, what you think about consciously while executing the movement will change its mechanical quaility.

In weight lifting it's pretty obvious as well. There is a technique to properly lifting weights if you don't want to injure yourself. And how you lift will influence how you work the different muscle groups. When you lift a barbell, are you concentrating on the muscle that's working? Are you lifting it up with a quick, impulse and then lowering slowly in a continuous movement? Or maybe the opposite? How you do it consciously...what you're thinking about while doing the movement...will change the quality and hence the (mechanical) results of the movement.

When the chinese talk about liu he, or the concept of six harmonies, this is really all that is meant. External coordination of the body working in tandem with intention/imagination. You can't seperate the two. As Tim Cartmell puts it :

"And the focused awareness of mind and body unity in practice is the method through which martial movements and techniques become internalized, and therefore useful. These principles and their method of internalization form the essence of martial art."

[Hardwork108]

If I didnt like negative comments then that clip would not have been posted.
Perhaps you were hoping for positive comments?

You talk about "kung fu" rooting????? I think you are full of s**t! If kung fu rooting was so effective then boxers and MMA fighters would be using it.
To make kung fu rooting effective, you need to train kung fu and not boxing or MMA! LOL!

Boxing's own rooting is fine for boxers....and whatever the MMA people is good for their sports tournaments. NO arguments from me there, but you cannot practice boxing and modern MMA and then add kung fu rooting to it, because the fighters will be missing other TCMA aspects that combine with the rooting to make the TCMAs effective fighting methods.

Similarly, you can't train kung fu rooting and then hop around like a boxer when you fight. I mean, haven't you been reading my posts about IRRELEVANT crosstraining when you must avoid cross training in arts whose principles and concepts contradict your TCMA ones???

Christ, this is like conversing with a 5 year old's ego....


Stuck to the floor with mechanical movements as taught in most VT school is BS!! When somebody is trying to land strikes on you then you have to be agile and mobile.
So you think kung fu rooting is about being "stuck to the floor"?....LOL

I don't think you have been in a real fight before mate. You live in kung fu dreamland along with a lot of people on this forum. Ving Tsun is about fighting.
Yes, Wing Chun is about fighting, and we know that because the ancestors designed it that way, so perhaps it is a good idea to stick to their concepts and principles, don't you think?


Fortuneately for me it has got me through many scrapes. No amount of talking and writing can prepare you for that!!
No one is denying the effectiveness of what is basically a kick boxing approach, as regards real fighting.


It's a shame we live so far apart. I would have no problem in putting my money where my mouth is! ;)

GH

If you really had studied TCMAs then you would follow the old philosophy of first KNOWING your enemy, before putting your money where your big mouth is...;)

[Hardwork108]

Help me??? Get real will you!! If that was all the help that was around I would be playing football instead of kung fu!!! lol

GH

You play kung fu?:eek:

Well, was that a Freudian slip? I say this because there are a lot of people in this forum that play kung fu, while they practice MT, BJJ and etc.

So, what happens is that their kickboxing and ground fighting improves while their kung fu does not.

In their minds this means that MT and BJ, etc. are effective, while the "kung fu" that they insist on playing only, isn't.....

Very interesting phenomenon.....

[Hardwork108]

It IS Mechanical movements..... thats it!

If there was something more, some hidden internal seceret, dont you think all the Pro fighters in would be trying to use it? They would be looking for any advantage they could...... but they dont as its delusional nonsense

A lot (not all) of the internals are long term endeavors, while most sports fighting is not! Also, a lot of genuine masters (I hope that one day you meet one) will not teach these to just anyone.

You may believe or not, what I say, but it is true.

[Hardwork108]

Why is it "force against force, and the strongest wins"and never "ïnternal power against internal power, and so the strongest wins"?

When brute force is put against brute force, then the strongest usually wins. When it is internal power against internal power, then the "softest" usually wins. If you understand that concept then you will begin to understand some certain Internal methodologies function.

Incidentally, if you touch hands with a genuine Chow gar stylist, then you will be surprised at how powerful they are, and that includes their Shock Power, which at least some lineages get without the use of any weight training - seen as counter productive as regards the training goals of the style.



"Why is one form of power subject to genetics and physical laws and the other not?

I would say that they are all subject to physical laws. Except that the Internals deal with physical laws that are on an advanced level to what the usual kickboxers study.


OH, rubbish. I suppose you think boxers and HW107.5's glorified kickboxers can't fight bareknuckle?
I don't think that anyone here is disputing the fact that External martial artists can fight.



You need to stop parroting all the crap you read on the net and do some critical thinking. Maybe test out this internal bull**** you've been sold. Take your own advice:



Make sure you have medical insurance first, though.

YiQuanOne, if you are reading this, then you will agree that it is very difficult to discuss things with people who have absolutly no point of reference, besides theri egos.....LOL!

[Hardwork108]

Source? Evidence? Spelling?

Start with distinguishing between health and fitness first - not the same thing - and you will be enlightened.




LOL, so if your friends (if you have any) ask you to help them move house, I guess you'll be saying no, because lifting furniture and boxes will **** up your chi?
I believe that YiQuanOne was referring to REGULAR weight training, that will contradict what you are trying to achieve with the Internal methodologies.


I'm waiting to see an "internal" guy outthrow the deluded iron-pumping shotputters, discus, javelin, and hammer throwers or outsprint the deluded iron-pumping sprinters. Sure, they only "feel" strong.
The Internal guy will probably not out throw him, but will be able to put him down with a more efficient strike and from a shorter distance, at that! ;)

Sometimes, some of the stuff you guys spew out is what one might expect from a kung fu beginner.


What moron told you this rubbish? A "master"?

Wha YiQuanOne is saying is what even the Externalists study, by being relaxed and unifying their bodies when striking. However, the Internalists go a lot , lot deeper than that, as regards, both body unity and "softness", which means, less of their energy is trapped in the body, as more of it is released into the opponent.

Simple stuff, that is, if you have a point of reference. ;)

[Hardwork108]

So you cant be a "fit" internalists??
You can do your Internal exercises and be strong and healthy. The advanced breathing exercises will also help your fitness. On top of that you can do certain cardio exercises, if you please. Just don't do things that contradict what you are trying to achieve with your Internal training.

[Hardwork108]

Thats absolute nonsense.
Lets use the elderly outside of martial arts as a point of discussion
Its been catgorically proven that a weights regime for elderly people improves;
- Movement
- Strength
- Well being
- Vitality
- Heres a link, http://www.cdc.gov/physicalactivity/growingstronger/index.html
Theres scores of these studies.

Quantifiable, measurable results


I would suggest that you will get better results with tendon strenghening/developing exercises found in styles such as chow gar and pakmei (and others).







Oh lord.... further nonsense.
I dont even know where to begin with that
Oh lord, you have no idea of the these TCMA concepts, do you?

What YiQuanOne is saying is a common principle for those who train the Internals. The wrong kind of muscle mass can inhibit chi flow, as well as disconnect your internal body unity.

You would not know that, because again, you do not have a point of reference. Your only point of reference is you belief system which makes you treat our approach as a belief system, which it is not, as we PRACTICE it, while you don't.

So our (Internalists) comments as regards the INTERNALS are based on our INTERNAL practice, while your comments as regards the INTERNALS are based on your EXTERNAL practice. Do you now see why you are so lost?

I mean if you look at like I put it above, it is actually funny, as in a comedy of (your) errors way.....;)

[LoneTiger108]

I don't think so. What do you think? Back it up with theories and actual fact, not preference or fond wishes.

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

I don't know about anyone else here, but if you look at the start date of this thread it was 10 YEARS AGO!

Are we all stuck in the past or something? Nothing NEW to discuss?? :o

[GlennR]

Hardwork108;1114912]I would suggest that you will get better results with tendon strenghening/developing exercises found in styles such as chow gar and pakmei (and others).


Rubbish, show me a measured study

What YiQuanOne is saying is a common principle for those who train the Internals. The wrong kind of muscle mass can inhibit chi flow, as well as disconnect your internal body unity.



So thai leg kicking is by far the strongest strike measured in the martial art world.
Measured, quantifiable.
How does the internal "no weights training mantra" respond to that?


You would not know that, because again, you do not have a point of reference. Your only point of reference is you belief system which makes you treat our approach as a belief system, which it is not, as we PRACTICE it, while you don't.


No problem. Show me some measurable results and ill happily jump on your bandwagon. Im all for improved results

So our (Internalists) comments as regards the INTERNALS are based on our INTERNAL practice, while your comments as regards the INTERNALS are based on your EXTERNAL practice. Do you now see why you are so lost?

My opinion is beating on "internalists" that think they are special. How many do i need to beat on before im found?

I mean if you look at like I put it above, it is actually funny, as in a comedy of (your) errors way.....;)

Yes, i laugh myself silly when i beat on another one of you "experts"... shame you arent in the neighbourhood

[YiQuanOne]

lesson is over!

Come back when your cup isn't so full!

[GlennR]

lesson is over!

Come back when your cup isn't so full!

BWAHAHAHAHA

My cup runneth over from your excess chi !!!!!

[SimonM]

You taught him nothing. Just mouthed the same old superstitious platitudes about magical Qi larping.

[GlennR]

You taught him nothing. Just mouthed the same old superstitious platitudes about magical Qi larping.

thanks Simon... but im sure he has filled me with unlimited wisdom

[LoneTiger108]

:rolleyes: It seems many here just love to criticize things they have no experience of, even 10 years after the discussion started :eek:

Let me ask all you scientific types a simple question...

What happens to the skin, tendons and bones of a body builder after many years of cultivating their shape and muscule tone? (without steroids!!)

What happens to the skin, tendons and bones of a Taichi practitioner after many years of cultivating their shape and muscle tone?

What is it that drives this 'body changing' process?

[GlennR]

=LoneTiger108;1115009]:rolleyes: It seems many here just love to criticize things they have no experience of, even 10 years after the discussion started :eek:

Experienced it, trounced it... next question



Let me ask all you scientific types a simple question...

What happens to the skin, tendons and bones of a body builder after many years of cultivating their shape and muscule tone? (without steroids!!)

What happens to the skin, tendons and bones of a Taichi practitioner after many years of cultivating their shape and muscle tone?

What is it that drives this 'body changing' process?


Ok, ill bite.... do tell

[LoneTiger108]

Experienced it, trounced it... next question

Experienced it with who exactly?

Ok, ill bite.... do tell

Read it again my friend. It's a question for you to answer... :eek:

[SimonM]

Ok, ill bite.... do tell

With External: You age wither and die!!!!!

With internal: ETERNAL LIFE plus you can fly with qinggong.

[GlennR]

]Experienced it with who exactly?

Every WC internalists thats tried to tell me im missing the "internal way"



Read it again my friend. It's a question for you to answer... :eek


Ill pass..... im not really interested in the variance in skin between various people

[LoneTiger108]

I've met a few wild cases myself dude, but your negative reply is noted.

[YiQuanOne]

For all you guys that want the study, all I can say is follow the money.

Who would fund this study, how could some one benifit by telling you not to buy this drug or buy this gym equipment, they can't, people want to fund studies that sell their product.

If you don' t believe that, well good luck!

It must be nice to experence something without experenceing it.

Have fun not experenceing experence.

[GlennR]

For all you guys that want the study, all I can say is follow the money.

Who would fund this study, how could some one benifit by telling you not to buy this drug or buy this gym equipment, they can't, people want to fund studies that sell their product.

If you don' t believe that, well good luck!

It must be nice to experence something without experenceing it.

Have fun not experenceing experence.


Youve weight trained, boxed, muay thai'd and fought a lot?

[SimonM]

For all you guys that want the study, all I can say is follow the money.

Who would fund this study, how could some one benifit by telling you not to buy this drug or buy this gym equipment, they can't, people want to fund studies that sell their product.

If you don' t believe that, well good luck!

It must be nice to experence something without experenceing it.

Have fun not experenceing experence.

So.....

The skimaster is using the "big gym" money to cover up any studies demonstrating internal is better.

This reality you live in, it is not our own, is it?

[YiQuanOne]

So.....

The skimaster is using the "big gym" money to cover up any studies demonstrating internal is better.

This reality you live in, it is not our own, is it?

Go back under your rock, and troll somewhere that you have experence.

Folloooowwww thheeeee moneeeeeyyyy!!!!!!!!!

[SimonM]

There you go making assumptions again.

[YiQuanOne]

There you go making assumptions again.




If you have experence it does not show, so all I can conclude is your experence was not the same as our experence.

We went here you went there.


It is not a religion, you either got something from it or you didn't.

If you did not find anything you probably went to the wrong place.

Just because you got lost, dosen't mean everyone gets lost, check your map and see where you made the wrong turn.

[SimonM]

If you have experence it does not show, so all I can conclude is your experence was not the same as our experence.

We went here you went there.


It is not a religion, you either got something from it or you didn't.

If you did not find anything you probably went to the wrong place.

Just because you got lost, dosen't mean everyone gets lost, check your map and see where you made the wrong turn.

See to the beam in thine own eye etc etc etc.

[YiQuanOne]

See to the beam in thine own eye etc etc etc.

Well your eyes are blind, someone has to see!

[SimonM]

Yes, I am entirely blind to the conspiracy to conceal the superiority of internal from the world... oh wait, that is because there isn't one!

[YiQuanOne]

Yes, I ask entirely billing of the conspiracy to conceal the superiority of internal from the world...oh wait, that is because there isn't one!


I don't care if you don't want to learn, that is your problem!

Go troll where you have some real experence.

[SimonM]

I don't care if you don't want to learn, that is your problem!

Go troll where you have some real experence.

Please do tell me about the bowflex conspiracy to conceal the TRUTH about internal. I want to learn about this. :D

[anerlich]

Let me ask all you scientific types a simple question...

What happens to the skin, tendons and bones of a body builder after many years of cultivating their shape and muscule tone? (without steroids!!)

They are in great shape at age 76. (without steroids!!)

What happens to the skin, tendons and bones of a Taichi practitioner after many years of cultivating their shape and muscle tone?

In Cheng Man-Ching's case, they die at 73. CMC is still in fantastic shape if you overlook the fact that he's dead. That internal sh*t rocks, doesn't it?

What is it that drives this 'body changing' process?

Ageing, climate change, Obama being born outside the US, and the News of the World phone hacking, obviously.

How's the five elements study going, Spence? For a self proclaimed expert you had a long way to go last time we discussed this.

It must be nice to experence something without experenceing it.

I haven't experenced :rolleyes: anything. I did experience/endure more than five years of Neijia training under a HK and Taiwan certified acupuncturist and Neijia practitioner. I'm certain I have more experience in these matters than the "ïnternal masters" pontificating on this thread.

Of course, my study of the internal arts resulted in my being continually harassed and intimidated by bodybuilders, pharmacists, Western doctors, Dan John, Mel Siff, Joe Wieder, Richard Dawkins, the entire Gracie family, Olympic athletes, members of every pro sports team on earth, Carl Sagan from beyond the grave, etc.

YiQuanZero is telling the truth! There is a monster anti-internal conspiracy run by the Illuminati to harvest our dead souls for consumption by aliens from another dimension!

[YiQuanOne]

I haven't experenced :rolleyes: anything. I did experience/endure more than five years of Neijia training under a HK and Taiwan certified acupuncturist and Neijia practitioner. I'm pretty sure I have more experience in these matters than the "ïnternal masters" pontificating on this thread.


Don't get mad at the people who had a good experence because you had a bad experence, look to your so called expert and then into the mirror and blame your bad experence on them.

It is probably the one in the mirror.

[anerlich]

Don't get made at the people who had a good experence

I'm not getting made.

[jesper]

I'm not getting made.

remade perhaps :D

[GlennR]

Don't get made at the people who had a good experence because you had a bad experence, look to your so called expert and then into the mirror and blame your bad experence on them.

It is probably the one in the mirror.



He's coming from a point of experience.
And from that experience he has found a better way.

I cant speak for Andrew, but, for myself the problem with you "internalists" is the totally non-realistic way you judge if your training is effective.

Ive heard.... (on this thread amongst other things)
- I feel stronger
- the way to win is be "softer"
- Internal health practices are better than external.... yet the evidence (world wide scientific) would prove otherwise
- You will feel like you are hitting hard but you actually arent as the external training is counteractive to the outcome

Nonsense. All of it.

I have no problem with guys going down the internal path if thats what they want to do.
Just dont tell the folks that bust their butts, spar, get injured and just plain put in year after year that they are "missing something"

If you want to go to an authority , here is a short essay by TST about force generation. Yips oldest and longest standing student, renowned for his ability to generate force

http://www.tstvingtsun.bc.ca/HiddenPowerOfSNT_remix.html

Notice how he explains things?

Doesnt just say its internal and it will work, but he has a logical expalanation which can lead to a measurable outcome.

[GlennR]

remade perhaps :D


Maybe he'd like a maid? ;)

[WC1277]

Hey Glenn, that's an excellent article by TST. I've had it explained to me in a very similar way

[GlennR]

Hey Glenn, that's an excellent article by TST. I've had it explained to me in a very similar way


Yes, i like his stuff.
Not magical or mystical....... straight, logical explanation without elitist posturing

[YiQuanOne]

He's coming from a point of experience.
And from that experience he has found a better way.

I cant speak for Andrew, but, for myself the problem with you "internalists" is the totally non-realistic way you judge if your training is effective.

Ive heard.... (on this thread amongst other things)
- I feel stronger
- the way to win is be "softer"
- Internal health practices are better than external.... yet the evidence (world wide scientific) would prove otherwise
- You will feel like you are hitting hard but you actually arent as the external training is counteractive to the outcome

Nonsense. All of it.

I have no problem with guys going down the internal path if thats what they want to do.
Just dont tell the folks that bust their butts, spar, get injured and just plain put in year after year that they are "missing something"

If you want to go to an authority , here is a short essay by TST about force generation. Yips oldest and longest standing student, renowned for his ability to generate force

http://www.tstvingtsun.bc.ca/HiddenPowerOfSNT_remix.html

Notice how he explains things?

Doesnt just say its internal and it will work, but he has a logical expalanation which can lead to a measurable outcome.


That's not my teacher, if he does not have it that's his fault, most people don't know what it is! that is why they sound like you guys, they think they are not missing something.

And Yes, the persons that bust their ass do all that external stuff are missing something! I wish I could have told them sooner that you are destroying your body, and there is another engine system that does not go away with age or non use, you just need to turn it on.

Its kind of like pedaling an electric bike all those years because you did not know where the on switch was.

I am glad I was lucky enough to meet someone years ago that showed me another way or else I would be still be doing the same thing you are doing now.

We have the internet now, so now we can share, isn't this nice!.

[GlennR]

That's not my teacher, if he does not have it that's his fault, most people don't know what it is! that is why they sound like you guys, they think they are not missing something.

And Yes, the persons that bust their ass do all that external stuff are missing something! I wish I could have told them sooner that you are destroying your body, and there is another engine system that does not go away with age or non use, you just need to turn it on.

Its kind of like pedaling an electric bike all those years because you did not know where the on switch was.

I am glad I was lucky enough to meet someone years ago that showed me another way or else I would be still be doing the same thing you are doing now.

We have the internet now, so now we can share, isn't this nice!.


Ok, so TST doesnt get it??
This gets better and better.

Im a bit confused in regards to you... do you practice WC??

[WC1277]

I think what Glenn is trying to say after following this obnoxiously long thread is that what many think is internal, at least in regards to WC, is nothing more than body mechanics and mastering one's center of gravity. It's not magical nor dogmatic. While a clear mind that comes from something like Tai Chi can help you focus on these aspects of WC, it's not part of the system itself. At least not in the teaching of it, you'll receive health/Chi benefits just from doing WC properly. No magic needed

[YiQuanOne]

generate force

http://www.tstvingtsun.bc.ca/HiddenPowerOfSNT_remix.html

Notice how he explains things?

Doesnt just say its internal and it will work, but he has a logical expalanation which can lead to a measurable outcome.

If that is Leng Ting

That guy is not Yip Man's number one student, by far, most senior student don't even know him.

He is more self promoted and definitly not internal.

If you think he is internal you are really clue less.

If you want to find a good sifu, it won't be the ones promoting themself's for glory and money.

It will be the one's that has very few students and is not making a living teaching.

But whatever you like to do that makes you happy is what counts.

You can go on crying that I am wrong, and demanding prove, go find your own proof, I don't need to prove it to you I have found my own proof.

Hardwork will be your proof, or find someone that has it, you need to do that part, I can just let you know it is not fake.

[YiQuanOne]

Ok, so TST doesnt get it??
This gets better and better.

Im a bit confused in regards to you... do you practice WC??

I think Yip Man might have learned internal, I don't think he passed it on if he knew it.

It looks like the branches of WC before Yip Man were internal and some passed it on, but it only takes one link to break the chain.

If you look at the WC sets, they are all set up to pass along the internal, but most people only know how to do them externally.

But style is not important, it is only a tool you use to fix yourself. But I think WC is a very good efficent tool compared to other tools from other styles.

[YiQuanOne]

Ok, so TST doesnt get it??
This gets better and better.

Im a bit confused in regards to you... do you practice WC??

That is TST, I did not know he called it Ving Tung.

We took TST out to dinner when we were in HK in the early 90's.

I have TST's book, he does use mind intent all through it.

If you follow internal, the mind Yi, leeds the Qi, to connection, so whats the problem.

When you are internal, you do not feel stronger, the other people feel that you are strong. You don't feel like you are being strong at all.

If you do feel strong in yourself, you are being external, the energy is trapped in you.

The internal guy is the opposite, the energy passes through them to the opponent.

[GlennR]

I think what Glenn is trying to say after following this obnoxiously long thread is that what many think is internal, at least in regards to WC, is nothing more than body mechanics and mastering one's center of gravity. It's not magical nor dogmatic. While a clear mind that comes from something like Tai Chi can help you focus on these aspects of WC, it's not part of the system itself. At least not in the teaching of it, you'll receive health/Chi benefits just from doing WC properly. No magic needed



Exactly what im trying to say.... thanks

[GlennR]

That is TST, I did not know he called it Ving Tung.

We took TST out to dinner when we were in HK in the early 90's.

I have TST's book, he does use mind intent all through it.

If you follow internal, the mind Yi, leeds the Qi, to connection, so whats the problem.

When you are internal, you do not feel stronger, the other people feel that you are strong. You don't feel like you are being strong at all.

If you do feel strong in yourself, you are being external, the energy is trapped in you.

The internal guy is the opposite, the energy passes through them to the opponent.

You really have no idea do you?

Ok, ill leave you to your internal training

[GlennR]

If that is Leng Ting

That guy is not Yip Man's number one student, by far, most senior student don't even know him.

He is more self promoted and definitly not internal.

If you think he is internal you are really clue less.

If you want to find a good sifu, it won't be the ones promoting themself's for glory and money.

It will be the one's that has very few students and is not making a living teaching.

But whatever you like to do that makes you happy is what counts.

You can go on crying that I am wrong, and demanding prove, go find your own proof, I don't need to prove it to you I have found my own proof.

Hardwork will be your proof, or find someone that has it, you need to do that part, I can just let you know it is not fake.

Try reading the article and the name of the auther moron..... got a chi blockage in the brain perhaps?

[Dragonzbane76]

When you are internal, you do not feel stronger, the other people feel that you are strong. You don't feel like you are being strong at all.

If you do feel strong in yourself, you are being external, the energy is trapped in you.

The internal guy is the opposite, the energy passes through them to the opponent.

haha gave me a laugh. :)

http://www.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://images.wikia.com/streetfighter/images/1/1e/Ryu-hadoken-artwork.png&sa=X&ei=f5QfTqrxKMPhsQLprbXHDQ&ved=0CAQQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNH4efSKIeKffqHDsZMP05JF3NE2MA

"what the hell is a dim mak?"
"Def touch...."

http://www.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_CjiSVTmjV-k/SqnHuvQTHFI/AAAAAAAAAB8/HHr0WxPZTlM/s320/dim%2Bmak.jpg&sa=X&ei=w5QfTqfgOIyNsALHx6SgAw&ved=0CAQQ8wc4LA&usg=AFQjCNE7a5k4AZ36b7NKHHFxUBlXWnrUHQ

the reason KF gets a bad name right here folks.

[anerlich]

Bringing Wuxia to the future of Canada. Read "In the Shadow of Fallen Towers," Canada's first post apocalyptic Wuxia web-novel now at http://Simon-McNeil.Blogspot.Com

Hey Simon, I started reading this - pretty good so far!

[anerlich]

We took TST out to dinner when we were in HK in the early 90's.

I went to a hamburger joint with Rigan Machado once! And I went to a taiji school in Taipei in the early '80's! Held my own with one of their guys in push hands and all!

[YiQuanOne]

Try reading the article and the name of the auther moron..... got a chi blockage in the brain perhaps?


Ya Ya, ok I skimmed it, saying the same thing as internal engine, does not mean you can do internal engine, unless you have done the internal development.

It does not say anything about lifting weights, doing aerobics, punching heavy bag, because those thing don't help internal development.

He says do SLT for a long time.

You need to read yourself.

What is intent?, he does leave a lot out of article.

I don't know where you guys live, it will probabally be hard to find someone willing to share with guys like you.

So just go back to the external and pretend their is nothing else.
I can forget you.

[GlennR]

Ya Ya, ok I skimmed it, saying the same thing as internal engine, does not mean you can do internal engine, unless you have done the internal development.

It does not say anything about lifting weights, doing aerobics, punching heavy bag, because those thing don't help internal development.

He says do SLT for a long time.

You need to read yourself.

What is intent?, he does leave a lot out of article.

I don't know where you guys live, it will probabally be hard to find someone willing to share with guys like you.

So just go back to the external and pretend their is nothing else.
I can forget you.

Yes, please forget me..... its like talking to a 7 year old

[bennyvt]

so what would people class visualizing the forms. I learnt this as part of the psycology of sport. Just doing it in your head so as to correct to train the brain to do the precise movement. Would you call that an internal way of learning?

[GlennR]

so what would people class visualizing the forms. I learnt this as part of the psycology of sport. Just doing it in your head so as to correct to train the brain to do the precise movement. Would you call that an internal way of learning?


Hey Benny.... to me this is a pretty good take on it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_visualization

Oh, and had Nathan come down fom the Central Coast last night and we went and trained at Beau's

Had a great night

[anerlich]

I don't know where you guys live

Hint - look at the Location: at the top of the post. Hard to find, isn't it?

it will probabally be hard to find someone willing to share with guys like you

Not as hard as it would be for this supposed someone to convince me that he had anything worth sharing.

I can forget you.

So go away already.

so what would people class visualizing the forms. I learnt this as part of the psycology of sport. Just doing it in your head so as to correct to train the brain to do the precise movement. Would you call that an internal way of learning?

As you say, this is pretty standard sports psychology. You could call it internal, but then you'd have to agree that what most elite sportsmen on the planet do is internal, which the internal elitists here would have a hard time dealing with, I imagine. Hard to feel special when everyone else does the same thing.

[YiQuanOne]

Yes, please forget me..... its like talking to a 7 year old

Its more like the handicapped from my side!.

[YiQuanOne]

Not as hard as it would be for this supposed someone to convince me he isn't a total airhead.

.

Your the one with the questions, I could care less if you are convinced, your loss not mine.


Go back to your flat earth.

[anerlich]

Your the one with the questions

No, you're the one claiming to have answers to questions no one is asking.

I could care less if you are convinced

You argue a hell of a lot for someone who doesn't care. But not convincingly.

I thought you were going to take your bat and ball and go home a while back. Don't let me stop you.

[YiQuanOne]

No, you're the one claiming to have answers to questions no one is asking.



You argue a hell of a lot for someone who doesn't care. But not convincingly.

I thought you were going to take your bat and ball and go home a while back. Don't let me stop you.

This is an internal thread, go back to your external threads and stop trolling where you have no experence, it shows.

I'm sure there are people that are not as negative as you when it comes to learning something new.

I am not saying things that are not well known, you should do some research on your own.

[GlennR]

This is an internal thread, go back to your external threads and stop trolling where you have no experence, it shows.

I'm sure there are people that are not as negative as you when it comes to learning something new.

I am not saying things that are not well known, you should do some research on your own.


The thread is "is Wing Chun Internal?". Its a question.
That would invite people who both support or oppose that idea.

To say that anyone who opposes the idea, has no idea or experience regarding internal studies, is ignorant at the very least

So you cant read where people are located and cant comprehend the topic of the thread.

Do you need some reading and comprehension lessons?

[YiQuanOne]

The thread is "is Wing Chun Internal?". Its a question.
That would invite people who both support or oppose that idea.

To say that anyone who opposes the idea, has no idea or experience regarding internal studies, is ignorant at the very least

So you cant read where people are located and cant comprehend the topic of the thread.

Do you need some reading and comprehension lessons?

You are one of those guys that thinks "internal" does not exist.

The question asks if WC is internal , not whether "internal exists ?".

[GlennR]

You are one of those guys that thinks "internal" does not exist.

The question asks if WC is internal , not whether "internal exists ?".

Well if internal doesnt exist how can it be in WC?????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!

Leading to, no its not internal!!!!!

So your way of thinking is that i must believe internal exists for it NOT to be in WC??

Are you on crack?

[YiQuanOne]

Well if internal doesnt exist how can it be in WC?????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!

Leading to, no its not internal!!!!!

So your way of thinking is that i must believe internal exists for it NOT to be in WC??

Are you on crack?

No, but sounds like you are.

Yes, WC is "internal" but most people do the "external" version like youuuuuuuu!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Because they don't know what "internal" isssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GlennR]

No, but sounds like you are.

Yes, WC is "internal" but most people do the "external" version like youuuuuuuu!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Because they don't know what "internal" isssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know what it isnt...... an effective quanitfiable means of combat, WC in this case.

Now go have another puff

[wolf3001]

I think Wing Chun is a combination.

[anerlich]

I'm sure there are people that are not as negative as you when it comes to learning something new.


Hmmm.

Bac Fu Do KF starting 1977.

Meditation and other occult stuff with a theosophical group c. 79-81.

taiji/xingyi/bagua 1981-1987. Accupressure course and diploma c. 1985.

Wing Chun 1989-

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu 1999-

MMA 2006-2009

I daresay I'm way more open than you and your ilk to learning new stuff.

BTW, the crap you're going on about isn't new to me AT ALL. I meet internal "experts" all the time who can't explain five element theory, the eight trigrams or basic TCM concepts. I'm betting I know much more about it than you.

This is an internal thread, go back to your external threads and stop trolling where you have no experence, it shows.

This is getting annoying. It's

EXPERIENCE

with an I, OK?

[Hardwork108]

Hmmm.

Bac Fu Do KF starting 1977.

Meditation and other occult stuff with a theosophical group c. 79-81.

taiji/xingyi/bagua 1981-1987. Accupressure course and diploma c. 1985.

Wing Chun 1989-

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu 1999-

MMA 2006-2009

I daresay I'm way more open than you and your ilk to learning new stuff.

BTW, the crap you're going on about isn't new to me AT ALL. I meet internal "experts" all the time who can't explain five element theory, the eight trigrams or basic TCM concepts. I'm betting I know much more about it than you.



This is getting annoying. It's

EXPERIENCE

with an I, OK?

Studying all of the above in a Mcdojo does not count. Nor does it count when you are studying it with people who are not willing to share the knowledge with you, for obvious reasons, I might add. ;)

[Hardwork108]

I think Wing Chun is a combination.

I would go further and say that all major kung fu styles are a combintation of Internal and External (Yin/Yang). The proportions will differ according to a given style, but they are there and they COMPLIMENT each other as far as the art and its EFFECTIVENESS are concerned.

[Hardwork108]

I know what it isnt...... an effective quanitfiable means of combat, WC in this case.

Now go have another puff

Study the Internals first, before you make any more clueless comments. :rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

Well if internal doesnt exist how can it be in WC?????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!

Leading to, no its not internal!!!!!

So your way of thinking is that i must believe internal exists for it NOT to be in WC??

Are you on crack?

What YiQuanOne is actually saying is that you are trolling this thread cluelessly, without a point of reference. ;)

[GlennR]

What YiQuanOne is actually saying is that you are trolling this thread cluelessly, without a point of reference. ;)

God knows what he's saying.
Though you seem to think like him so i'll put you in the fantasy fu boys club with him.

[GlennR]

Study the Internals first, before you make any more clueless comments. :rolleyes:

Prove me wrong fu boy.

As your friend in fantasy would say.... show me the money

[Hardwork108]

Rubbish, show me a measured study

Hear is a measured study. You be the scholar and find a genuine Internalist sifu and ask him to thump you on your skull. It should not be too difficult to convince him, knowing your "charmingness".......




So thai leg kicking is by far the strongest strike measured in the martial art world.
Measured, quantifiable.
How does the internal "no weights training mantra" respond to that?
If you were really interested then you would seek a qualified master and ask him personally. The problem is that you guys are not really interested as you have made up your minds. So what you are doing here is trolling with your predictable clueless admiration of MT, BJJ and MMA.

No problem with that either, except for the fact that you should go and admire all that none- TCMA stuff in a none TCMA thread. Sounds logical, doesn't it? I mean it is not rocket science or Internal training, things that are way above your heads....it is common logic - go to MMA forums and pat each other's backs for discovering the "true" martial arts.....




No problem. Show me some measurable results and ill happily jump on your bandwagon. Im all for improved results

Why should I show you measurable results? I found my own measurable results, if you were INTERESTED then you would go and find it, or at least try to and not in an internet forum but a genuine kung fu kwoon (if they let you in, that is LOL).



My opinion is beating on "internalists" that think they are special. How many do i need to beat on before im found?
You could not beat a genuine Internalist if your life depended on it. That means you would get killed!



Yes, i laugh myself silly when i beat on another one of you "experts"... shame you arent in the neighbourhood

Listen, instead of talking BS from behind the safety of your key board, get up and go to your local China Town and spread the word that you are looking for some Internalist sifus and masters to beat up.

No need to say, that you should write will before hand and make any organ donations and so on clear in writing. Actually, you could leave your brain to Science Fiction! LOL!