View Full Version : Defense against circular arm swings
02-26-2001, 02:43 PM
I popped this question to my sifu at my club and some of the seniors. Most responded saying that if you move in and hit first (since the straight path is quicker than the circular one) that will also stop their swing, as in they will get hit and cease to continue swinging. I was wondering what happens if the arms kept swinging, or even a simultaenous hit from both people.
I once saw a book in the city by Bruce Lee when he was still young and doing Wing Chun that showed a differnt counter. On the ongaurd stance when the opponent swings he leans back. When the opponent arm swings through he snaps back up quickly and chain punches.
I tried this and it felt quite comfortable doing but have yet to see if I can acutally do it!
Whats everyone opinion on this? or maybe you have another favourable counter.
02-26-2001, 02:59 PM
Hi, we've got a video on how to deal with a hook punch. The main thing when stopping a hook, is that the motion is circular, all to often people try to use blocks that create clash. Thus, how can that be the wing chun way, when in wing chun you go with the force.
Here's the link of the video to stopping the hooked punch
Hook punch video (http://www.windycitywingchun.com/multimedia/movies1.html)
hope this helps
02-26-2001, 04:08 PM
The Biu Jee set has an upward delivered side tan sao that is used to stop incoming roundhouse punches.
02-26-2001, 07:08 PM
Nice web site Ed.
i like the lop sau to shoulder attack drill.
that is almost exactly one of the movements from tai chi's 'DaLu'. - with the exception that it is back and forth on a straight line, rather than using circular footwork.
* i thought the hook counter was ok... however, it still leaves you directly in front of the attacker, and spins his body in the opposite directions that his force is comming from, rather than continuing/following his energy. - which means; you better watch out for his follow up, left hook.
- what if, instead, you kept the front foot (right) planted, and spun the back foot behind, and around 270 degrees. - connect to hook punch with a left tan sao, (then wrap his elbow), and continue his energy, while your right, can bong sao, to cover any attempt made with his left; and if none is made, can be used to elbow the guy in the jaw/neck. - all the while, you end up wrapping his body around yours, setting him up for a beautiful hip throw. - which you can augment by 'reaping' his legs. (meant as a leg break.)
- that is the tai chi way.
02-26-2001, 10:06 PM
Thanks for the comments, and definitely, if you want more detailed discussion you
should take a look at our mailing list.
Mailing list (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/windycitywingchun)
As for the hook, that's one thing people seem to forget about Wing chun.. there is no
clash, however there's definitely allot of guts involved as well. Now, there are 2 kinds of
hook were talking about.. a short range and long hook. If its a short range, the path
of the force is a circular one, thus, the motion to counter with it, is circular as well.
Now that's the key clashing is what causes someone to do a second move. Imagine with me
for a second, your walking in the woods, and there's a hole in the ground. If your right
foot falls in this hole (and pretend that its bottom less), how can you step with your
left foot, until the right foot isn't planeted? However, thus the concept of going with the
force as opposed to clashing with the force. I hope this makes sense.
As for your comments, I appreciate them.. but I believe your style of application of
tan sau, is different from mine. The way I see it, using tan sau in that manner would be
like me using a hammer to saw a piece of wood. From my teaching, tan sau can never, be
applied without having a touch. If you watch the video of Siu Lim tao, the 1st part, the
only application of tan sau in our form, can be found only after the fok sau motion.
I hope to have a video of it soon to show other individuals our way of doing tan sau.
Now, you stated that is the tai chi way.. but remember, were doing the wing chun way
02-26-2001, 11:27 PM
There are no absolutes in kung fu, especially WC.
That Biu Jee tan sao I mentioned is used extensively in the Northern styles.
Why SHOULDN'T I use a tan sao in that manner if it stops a punch from hitting my head?
02-27-2001, 05:31 AM
i dont understand "From my teaching, tan sau can never, be applied without having a touch."
02-27-2001, 06:07 AM
MaFuYee, the "taiji" technique you mentioned is a classic WC technique. The Chum Kiu set works this technique quite hard.
That may be the taiji way, but it's also the WC way as well.
02-27-2001, 08:16 AM
Well, I don't want to start another complicated discussion. I try to give an idea of how "we" solve this problem:
First: I try to frontkick him (my leg is longer than his arm is, so ...). Works nearly every time.
Second: Ok. It could be, that I don't kick him good enough. Now it depends on his attack. If he punches "very round" (nearly with a straightened arm), than he has a really long way to go and my forward-pushing hands hit him first. If he makes a "good" attack (starting at the shoulder and nearly, not altogether, forward) my forward-pushing hands get contact and change in a sort of hi-Bong-Sao and lead his punch over my head, or into Tan-Sao with a turn.
But this is still not the defensive-movement: this comes at the same thime with the other hand: a straight punch. For circular arm swings you need a very good stance/balance and if you get hit (esp. in the face) there'll be no power in your attack.
PS: BTW: On a semiar I learned something out of "our" related Thai-Boxing: an "inside"-sweep, like the inside-punch. Very interesting
I think your Sihings are right. Entering with forward momentum will be the simplest and most direct. Even you foul up the first time your momentum may throw the opponent off balance.
Practice it again and again.
BTW most hooks, if done properly are linear and well set up. They may come from very close and complicated moves will result in your demise.
In training chops and elbows and round punches appear to work becuase the defender does not move forward or fully release the power.
02-27-2001, 03:55 PM
I'm 5'4", and I'll tell you from experience that forward momentum doesn't work against a roundhouse when your opponent is 8-12 inches taller than you.
Unless you can execute some sort of upward block to cover your head (specifically that reverse Tan Sao I mentioned above), you're going to get hit full blast by roundhouse punches - as I've been.
Fortunately, WC trains this technique quite effectively.
02-27-2001, 05:24 PM
Hi HuanKaiVun (what's that kind of name?)!
I really don't understand your problem. Especially if you are smaller you have to step in/as close as possible. Believe me, the only point that hurts in this attack, is the fist. And if you step in, say near the bizeps, you won't get hurt. Ok. I know, it's a speed-problem. If you like to train stepping in quickly, try the following exercise:
Your partner attacks you with a circular arm swing, without step (so he's already in hitting distance). Hold your hands in front and very close to your body. Now step in straight with one big step and contact his chest with your hands (that remain at your chest).
The more exercise you get, the faster you can try and the better the attack of your partner should be.
Then change the exercise slightly. Use e. g. a step with an ellbow-attack (as counter) and your partner attacks with a step. If you've managed this counterattack, go on with a counter-punch.
It should take you not more than 3 or 4 months to get the needed speed.
BTW: Always remember, that you don't step in into "normal" punching distance. Use the Wing-Chun-punching-distance instead. This one is 20 cm closer!
That reminds me, no, I'll make a new thread for this.
See you soon,
02-27-2001, 06:38 PM
You guys ever use this against a round punch?
It is really effective.
Do BongSao-WuSao at the inside of the wrist of the attacker for a nano-second (to stop the punch from hitting
your face) and immediately execute a larp sao with
the bong sao hand (this will carry the fist over
your head to the other side). At this point you
can follow up with a punch with your other hand.
The sequence must be smooth so that the opponent
is able to continue swinging his arm with little
resistance, but the sequence brings it over your
head safely, and you are able to capitalize on
the opponents loss of balance and attack him
from the outside gate.
02-27-2001, 08:14 PM
Armin, HKV is a Taiwanese name.
Your drill is nice and teaches some speed, but it won't stop you from getting knocked out by a much taller opponent if you don't have the ability to block high.
How tall are you? Have you ever fought a resisting trained opponent who is at least a foot taller than you and outweighs you by 100 lbs?
If I were 5'8 and 150 (I'm actually SMALLER than that), I'd be fighting guys 6'8" and 250 - NBA sized power forwards!
[This message was edited by HuangKaiVun on 02-28-01 at 10:25 AM.]
02-28-2001, 08:17 AM
As I said: it's just an exercise. You have to keep several more things in your mind of course, when sparring or fighting on the street. I'll try to give you an idea: Don't start "blocking" when you see your enemy attacks (meaning: don't wait for his attack; if you're sure, that there will be a fight, attack with everything you have!). Don't go in "frontal", try to outline your enemy, esp. if he's bigger.
Yes, I fought several times against bigger and heavier enemies (even sometimes against two or more at once). Well, I'm about 1,83 m (thats about 6 ft.) and weigh around 110 kg (242 pds.).
02-28-2001, 05:38 PM
The last guy to hit me with that looping roundhouse was 6'2" and about 180 lbs with long arms.
That means that a guy like you would be fighting somebody 6'10" and 290 - basically you'd be fighting a guy like professional basketball NBA power foward Karl Malone (who weights more like 260).
Not only that, but he'd have SKILLS - and might come at you more than one at a time.
I strongly suspect you HAVEN'T fought anybody that big AND skilled, because there aren't that many of them in the NBA, let alone the world!
When somebody that much bigger than you throws a roundhouse, you had better be able to block to the head with a outward high circular technique.
Often times, even that is not enough when the length is too great.
But you're right, Armin. One must train for speed, and the offensive mentality is the only way you'll have a chance against ANY opponent.
On the other hand, you now perceive the problems that small Taiwanese guys like me have - and how WC was designed specifically to deal with them.
02-28-2001, 06:43 PM
"On the other hand, you now perceive the problems that small Taiwanese guys like me have - and how WC was designed specifically to deal with them."
Them? WC shows how to deal with small Taiwaneses??? :D Phahahahahahaha!!!
But, I still believe, that it would have been easier for you to frontkick your opponent - better than blocking the circ. arm swing.
03-01-2001, 05:29 AM
Yes, WC shows us small Taiwanese guys how to fight larger opponents - and WIN.
Hawkins Cheung has some good points on this in his article in the book "Esoteric Warriors".
Armin, you should actually try fighting somebody 6'10".
You'll find that you'll HAVE to block to the head. Even if you do, the length of their arms will often loop AROUND your block and hit you anyway.
Now if you try to frontkick that 6'10" guy, chances are that his roundhouse will STILL hit your head full blast - and your kick won't even touch him.
Try rushing in every time that guy throws a roundhouse and you'll get kneed/elbowed in the face, taken to the ground, slammed by his OTHER arm, kicked down, or thrown halfway across the ring.
When dealing with the roundhouse, I'll often block high if I can't move in.
But once I block, I'll move in or out depending on what I'm offered.
In sparring, I am usually on the losing end of exchanges against much bigger opponents due to the limitations of the ring.
03-02-2001, 02:11 PM
The technique you saw of Bruce Lee leaning back is a Wing Chun technique. We use this technique quite often in our school. I thought that more people knew of this, but obviously not judging by the responses here. I believe that answers your original question.
03-03-2001, 06:39 AM
What about defense against a Choy Lay Fut sow choy? My sifu said that a good sow choy is much too powerful to block. He prefers to sidestep and kick to the groin. However, a senior from another school said that you can deflect it with a bong sau. The bong sau doesnt work for me, especially if the strike is coming in close to vertical. The sidestep works, but you gotta be f a s t! Any thoughts?
03-03-2001, 09:33 AM
Is there a name for the leaning back counter?
I've only seen this when we practise pushing hand exercise (solo, Tai Chi) in our class. Yes, that sounds strange to do a Tai Chi excerise in Wing Chun !
Could it be that the leaning back was something that evolved from Wing Chun and wasn't originally a "technique" ?
03-03-2001, 02:01 PM
I was kind of expecting to hear people say "it's not Wing Chun" but this movement was taught by Yip Man. I've never seen the video you're talking about, but my instructor told us that Bruce Lee was good at it. We call it the timing technique. We use it for defense of jabs also. Very effective if done correctly. I have'nt seen anyone else do it besides our sister school in Virginia.
03-04-2001, 02:25 AM
The Chum Kiu set teaches the leaning back technique via its cat-stance and pivots.
03-04-2001, 08:55 AM
This questions revolves around the problem of whether the hook is a tight (elbow out) hook, or a looping haymaker.
The haymaker solution is to stop the punch before it reaches speed. The further the fist travels around the circular path, the more speed it picks up. More speed = more power. Stop the strike early in execution, maybe with a tan sau/palm strike simultaneous action while stepping into the punch. This should leave you at about a 50 degree angle to the attacker. With the palm strike already up, and covering the line of a possible second hook from the opposite arm, the tan sao is in a position to deliver a devastating follow-up (it is basically ****ed and ready!)
Tighter hooks are a lot harder to deal with. Often the solution is to not be there when the punch arrives. Sounds hard, but tighter hooks means less range. Try stepping out, then in at a 45 degree angle.
All in all, a good hooker can create many a problem for the inexperienced wc man.
03-04-2001, 10:52 AM
Sometimes a "good hooker" is a great thing! ;)
03-05-2001, 03:21 AM
so my mother tells me.
03-06-2001, 02:54 AM
In regards to Choy Li Fut's Sow Choy-there are no unstoppable techniques-but there are definately some **** good ones (hey I said ****-I guess ya'll realized which Ten Tigers yer talkin to) Okay, I studied some Bak Sing Choy Li Fut, I'm no expert, but I know a little. Sow Choy, although powerful can always be defeated by getting inside,or jamming. The eye of the hurricane is the calmest. This is also the way a rotary throw is used.A shoulder stop to the shoulder (duh) or the bicep, or the throat, or tan-sao while simultaneously delivering a strike is usually the preferred technique used here.
03-06-2001, 06:17 AM
i am in total agreement, mate. Stop the clock before it gets wound.
03-06-2001, 11:00 AM
with good timing, deaden or disrupt the swing with a fak-sau into the bicep & simultaneous straight punch to the nose. this can be done with attack,retreat or side step. good hunting.
03-07-2001, 12:26 PM
If you want to counter a circular strike, such as a deng sao choi from Choy Lee Fut tie a weight to a rope and have some one swing the weight at you. By doing this you will learn how to avoid being hit.
Saying is not boasting at all
03-08-2001, 12:58 AM
This is my first time to respond to a topic on this forum so please don't pound me to death!LOL!
I agree totally with greedy and Ten Tigers. I think the primary defense for round strikes to the head should be to use the Lin Sil Die Dar principle, in this case Tan Da, or a simultaneous Tan Sao and straight punch. As the saying goes, where the head goes the body follows. If you attack as you simultaneously defend with Tan Sao, your Tan won't have to absorb the brunt of the attack, only the momentum of the arm. The CL punch will neutralize the power from the attackers torso by uprooting his base. As for the eye being the calmest part of the storm, you hit the nail on the head. WC practitioners must work to get inside, and by stepping into the attack you will force the attacker into the range where wing chun is most usable - in close. After completing Tan Da, the Tan hand is ****ed and ready to immediately follow up with a palm strike to the face, which will keep the attacker unbalanced and unable to fire a second strike. The key is to drill this until there is no gap between the Tan Da and followup palm strike with the Tan hand. For me, the sequence would be - Tan Da, immediately followed by a palm with the hand that just completed the Tan, followed by chain punches. The key is to drill it over and over until there is no gap. Overwhelm the attacker with offense. Sorry for being so long winded!
Just my opinion,
03-08-2001, 07:20 PM
A Tan Sao will not stop a circular punch whether it’s from CLF. Lama Pai or a Boxer. Believe me I have studied Wing Chun, Boxing and Choy lee Fut.
Saying is not boasting at all
03-09-2001, 07:49 PM
A tan sau works for round strikes coming at you at or below your shoulder level. How can you apply a tan sau to a high circular strike without losing your structure?? Say someone is swinging at you from a near vertical angle (sow choy?) how can u tan sau that?
03-09-2001, 11:46 PM
Don’t even think about taking a tan sau above the shoulder. I forget the name of the block to use against a round strike such as a sao choi, however the blocking technique it is more of a strait arm thrust making contact with the opponents forearm at the point just before the elbow.
Saying is not boasting at all
You're right. Wing Chun is incapable of dealing with a round punch. This is but one of MANY areas where the style is difficent in.
You can even go as far as to say that many southern styles are incomplete meaning that it deals with a few specific scenarios of combat - unlike the Northern Systems of course.
I am only a beginner with regards to wing chun,and have been training hard for about 6 months in traditional wing chun as taught by william cheung by one of his certified instructors. The main technique we learn and use is the bil sao(stretching deflection block)and simultaneous front kick against a round punch, it works superbly from either parallel or cross arm and from either a lead or rear hand round punch attack, the beauty of this technique is its simplicity but effectiveness, the harder they hit the more it hurts them and it works against all size opponents. :)
03-10-2001, 06:41 AM
There is no reason that you can not use a Taun Sau against a round punch. It all depends on the type of energy you exert with the Taun. For example; if you use the Taun to "disperse" and "cover" in a manner of laying it on the opponents attack then it can be quite effective. What I am saying is that Taun used in this manner is often "spread out" and not as forward and close to the body. It is almost like the chest is the point of a triangle and the two arms are the sides. Each one going in a slightly different angle and getting further apart as they continue on. Many people think of Taun in the terms of "palm up arm" yet the term is also used, some would even say more accurately used, for dispersing hand. When one takes in the opponents attack and lays the Taun on the arm you can deal with a high level punch and you can also spread out the incoming punch and deal with it even if it is a hook. You can even, if you desire to, use the Taun and its structure to take advantage of the incomming force of the attack and use the opponents force to hurt his weapon/arm. You can use the concept to cut his attack and this is how you could deal with a hook or circular attack. Of course, there are other movements which may be better given the situation.
Ego, as to limitations of the style I would say that is more the individual than the system. Consider an artist. There are many that can take an art class and be taught the same techniques yet how many can express themselves like a true master? Is the failing in the teaching, the methods and techniques or in the students ability to comprehend and make them his own? Each art has its own advantages and disadvantages. Each art has examples which can make its core principles work and work well. Don't blame the art but instead think of the artist and thier level of skill. If you truly believe that Wing Chun is incapable of dealing with a hook or other type of circular attack then perhaps you have visited the wrong Wing Chun schools. ;) BTW, just so you know Wing Chu has its own hook punch which is a very short range movement. We also train to defend this punch and if you can defend close further is actually easier. I see that you reside in New York, I would think there are several schools in NYC which could demonstrate effective methods of dealing with a circular attack. They don't even need to be of the same lineage. Of course, I am sure there are examples one could point to that can't defend against this type of attack but I think it a failing of the artist not the art.
It's funny, I often thought that the haymaker type punch was the most common attack WC trained against at a basic level.
Everyone above seems to talk about exact shapes, positions and techniques. The spontaneous nature of combat seems lost.
What I am trying to say is that when faced by the "enemy" you don't know who they are and what style they will use. All you have is your instincts and reflexes honed by hours of training and THOUGHT.
There is no time to think Ah! a Thai kick or karate punch , takedown etcc. You must just react for better or worse.
From my limited experience with any attack the most common defense is to immediately counter attack...the hands rise from your side (assuming you were surprised) and the body crouches and thrusts forward. Tan sao bilsao happen automatically if required, otherwise the opponent gets hit.
To stand and try to take the blow, be it a kick or punch is suicide. Better to land something of your own which at worst may put the opponent off and at best hurt him/her.
To lean back to avoid a punch may be possible, but to train it is just bollocks - you are training to fall over.
It is true some attacks may be side stepped or pushed away - again this is reflex and is a factor of the atack distance too. Its not like IKF where the attacker throws a huge punch two feet from your head for a clean easy block.
In my training now the shapes of tan, fook bong etc all blend into one and all. There is no perfect shape and one should not be expected. There are just concepts and feelings.
I hope I don't sound too arrogant with my words - just my ideas. Good luck.
P.S. To the guy who ties the weight to the rope - watch yer back!
03-10-2001, 05:58 PM
rp is right there are no absolutes or perfect shapes when it comes to self-defence. I t really just boils down to reflex you can train all you like against a technique if you react incorrectly you are either hit with a bruised ego or worse possibly dead.
PS weight on the rope is an exercise designed to demonstrate that not all round strikes are ridged. Some round strikes such as deng sao choi (a strait arm sweeping strike) the opponent can change the strike from deng sao choi to a regular round strike as soon as the blocking arm has made contact resulting in the fist getting passed the block.
Saying is not boasting at all
03-11-2001, 08:06 AM
i haven't been around for a while, although i have been reading regularly.
all i want to say is that is good to see that the skill level & basic knowledge of wing chun from some people is as pathetic as ever.
"you can't use tan sau against a round punch(including a strike above the shoulders or from near vertical)"
what a joke, if you people believe this to be true then not only are your basics poor they are non existant.these are the easiest strikes in the world to deal with & to dignify any of the idiots with an answer would be an insult to the intelligence of any beginner at a half decent wing chun school anywhere.
if you know what you're talking about speak but if not then shut the phuck up & let people with more than one brain cell enjoy their discussions on this site.
03-11-2001, 02:54 PM
Not one of my round strikes has ever been stopped by a tan sao block bil sao yes tan sao no. As I have said in another post, I have some close friends who are WC practitioners
Saying is not boasting at all
03-11-2001, 07:57 PM
The round punch is the very first thing we learn to defend against with the tan sau. Any beginner student in our school learns this the first week and is taught the application immediately. It is considered a very basic movement in our school.
The most common mistake I've seen is that alot of people don't turn their horse enough to put the tan sau in a good enough position to be effective against a really hard swing. And then I've seen some that will extend their tan sau first and then turn their horse - which is still wrong. I remember a pretty confident guy with 6 years of Wing Chun experience who came to visit our class and was asked to demonstrate tan da for us. He was shocked that his tan da worked in theory but not in application. The beginners in our class had lots of fun hitting him. He left with bruised arms and ego.
I guess there are many ways of doing this wrong, so let's try and think about what is really practical and makes sense, okay? Sticking out your tan sau and pointing it towards your opponents attacking-arm shoulder or his center does'nt work against a solid round punch. It will collapse under the force of any real punch thrown. Try extending the tan sau at the same time your horse is turning. Stop once you are facing 45 degrees. Do not extend your arm to try to reach the attacking arm either, just turn to cover your area. You are now at a better position to reach the opponent with your striking arm also. My Sifu always tells me "make sure you always hit the opponent". The horse must be well grounded whether or not you are turning it or stepping in, or else you will be off-balance during and after the strike.
The only way to find out if something works is by trying it, and using your common sense to evaluate it. Keeping an open mind is the key to infinite wisdom. I hope this helps some of you and not most of you! ;)
03-15-2001, 05:24 AM
sihing73 or anybody else
can you please describe in more detail the structure of the tan sau to block a near vertical round strike? Include the position of the elbow and footwork please. where does it appear in the empty hand forms?
Tan sau as I have been taught is the palm up block, elbow 1 closed-fist distance to the chest, forearm at about a 45 degree angle. It's thrown with a corkscrew action, and appears in the 3rd part of siu lim tao. Very effective for round strikes such as haymakers and spinning backfists as long as they are not coming at a near vertical angle. Only works with correct pivoting of course.
high vertical strikes would cause the elbow to come out too far and the structure to be weak, and I'd be better off using a biu sau instead.
Please enlighten me
03-16-2001, 08:21 PM
My previous response was based on round strikes being delivered from a horizontal or near horizontal angle. As far as overhead strikes, I think biu sau would be effective. Something else that would be effective would be to rush in with a straight punch as the opponent is chambering to strike.
Just my opinion,
03-19-2001, 12:41 AM
that punch and parth of texnic must be impulsive and most speed cose if is not is give olpen road for reply or strong and efectif respons .- just my opinion friendly tiger_1 :cool: :cool:
03-19-2001, 01:19 AM
I looked at the video on the hook punch and a number of things crossed my mind, can you help me to better understand why that technique works?
The first is what would happen if the attacker fakes that right hook? It seems to me the defender commits way too much. After that commitment - the attacker can take the opponent's balance, and attack up and down the exposed ribs - and lte me tell you - a good boxer or street fighter will bust a few ribs from exposed position.
Its great when you know what someone will do and you have a counter to it - but sometimes things don't happen how you expect. I don't think this technique takes that into consideration.
The second thing is if the person throwing the hook (and actually commits with power) was huge and powerful - I don't think this technique will work for a smaller person who is not as strong.
It just seems unsafe to me on two very important points. What are you thoughts? Can you help me to understand?
03-19-2001, 04:35 AM
One of the things that makes wing chun unique is that its a conceptual style and highly effiecient. What you are seeing there in the video is a demonstration of one piece of time that normally passes in milliseconds. So the guys feints? He will get hit first either way to due to structural superiority in the technique. Keep in mind as well they we always keep in mind what may or may not happen, thats the adaptablility of wing chun's energies, its what makes it alive and not dead so to speak. Most wing chun schools train with multiple hitting drills and non prearranged environments. So we're very familiar with what "may" happen.
Now lets say that this person is a roid monster like someone you would see in the "UFC". Sure it would be dangerous to move inside of him. Isnt it dangerous to move inside anyones threat envelope? The key is having the confidence and ability to know what to do once there. And that is also a strong point in wing chun, we do know what to do once there.
Last thing on this. This is but one technique of wing chuns aresenal. Who's to say that we wouldn't just move and hit you without even bothering to block it?
These "what if" questions can go all day long. Just remember that if we do it, its been proven to work many times over in the past.
From one thing know ten thousand things - Miyomato Musashi
03-20-2001, 09:11 AM
know this is a wing chun forum, but since buk sing came in and also some asked about sow choi, hope you don't mind my two cents worth.
in buk sing (i'm from )/hung sing, a sow choi is never used as a primary weapon, the reason being, and if you know any buk sing or hung sing players and ask them to play the move, you will see clearly that there are too many doors open, and entry is very easy.
if they use a sow choi initially, then they deserve to be hit, on the back swing alone, they will be in trouble.
a sow choi is on a 45 degree down swing, and if the technique is done correctly, it will not be stopped by a block that is in direct force with it.
this is the design of the stike, let alone where it is to hit, remember if used correctly there is much being played, distance, angle, stance, waist, flexability.
03-20-2001, 08:14 PM
Welcome to the TWC clan, dunc !
Like I said before, a BongSao-WuSao (two handed
deflection) to LarpSao-punch is a good way to
handle a round punch!
07-21-2001, 03:55 AM
We train against hooks and uppercuts, from the boxer's crouch in particular. Tan sao works great. You must stance turn and attack the combat centerline with a punch and toh ma. The tan hand is ready for yan chung to the face. I also like the fak against strong punches, the fak hand is ready to strike, too. Your tan sao must sink a bit. The punch might be strong horizontally but vertically it will be weak. This is why the tan sao must stick and relax/sink. I was enlightened last week when Sifu was demonstrating this. I was at the right angle watching and saw the incoming punch get it's energy dissipated downward by Sifu's tan and structure with very little effort. Does this make sense?
07-22-2001, 11:08 PM
The way I was show was to step diagonally towards the opponents static arm. This forces the swing of his punching arm to go ****her since u sidestepped. Then perform an upward hooking block or an inside hooking block(depends on height of the punch) while delivering a straight punch to the solar plexus or nose....an eye jab would also be ideal or a panther paw to the throat. Hope this helps
08-11-2001, 11:12 PM
LOOK, tan sau is a parry not a block. there is no blocking in wing chun. if you turn your body when you do tan and punch, your body should be correctly aligned.
My anus is superior™
I see you have spent some time in the ring. :)
08-12-2001, 11:00 AM
And any WC guys that agreed with him:
Are you really condoning making a 270 degree turn in a confrontation against an unknown opponent?
Have you ever had someone throw a hook at you? If you can make a 270 degree turn and pull off that technique then I'm amazed - it sounds more like a Jackie Chan flick to me
1. A hook is a close range technique - it will arrive well within half a second of starting (I train hooks a lot and I train Taiji a lot - no way on this earth that a Shuttles turn will come off before 2 or 3 punches have landed)
2. Punches are not thrown as single units
3. People sometimes feint to get a reaction - you just gave them your back.
4. Turning your back when not forced to is just stupid
5. Other people have footwork too - when I go through a standard three punch combination (left jab, right hook, left uppercut - this leads into right forearm, right elbow, right shoulder) I have moved forwards a metre or two by the end of it as I'm accounting for someone moving backwards. I train it to track movement sideways and also movement straight into me. If you cannot see your opponent than you are working to a mental picture that is outdated. The only way a turn will work is when you have good contact and can feel him.
My Taiji way is different to your taiji way - a few examples in escalating difficulty - most of these are WC techniques that my WC training partner uses as well (he just has names for stuff :))
if someone throws a right hook I:
1) move to my left to get outside of it's arc. I then stick to the back of his upper arm as it passes me. This means I'm in no danger of taking a follow up left and I'm able to move in to attack the empty flank and neck.
2) if it's a tight hook then I'll take the outside of their forearm with my palm and redirect the energy across their body (usually you swap to the right palm to keep it going past your face), this gets them over-rotating and again I can take the empty corner. I have superb contact at this point.
3) as the hook starts I move in, take the lead knee out with a heel kick and plant that kicking foot between his feet, making a simultaneous left straight arm attack to the face. If the straight arm misses I will use the left elbow and shoulder to stick to the hook and drain it's energy (block it :)). From this position I have all the inside lines and it's game over. My right arm and leg have been available throughout to guard and attack as necessary.
At all times I'm covering with my right and my ultimate goal is to close to body contact so I can use my best range.
I know I'm being harsh but you can't afford to believe that a 270 turn is viable against a hook.
Those turns are meant (imho) for in close emergencies when you need to clear some space and misdirect the opponent. Or for when you've got good enough contact that the sweep/throw will come off - a bit too Yin for me though. I usually use the turn if I'm on close and have a leg tied around one of theirs - then when I do the turn it rips the groin tendons and uproots them.
I sincerely recommend you go to a boxing club and ask someone to show you a hook - then pad up and try doing that technique when you're expecting a right hook. Then get him to throw a right or a left and see if you can do it. Then get him to throw jabs, crosses, overhands, uppercuts and hooks - you'll be on the floor.
This goes for WC people who leave the basic tenets of the system - simple and quick and brutal. I don't train WC but I train with a few WC guys - we teach each other a lot about what works and what doesn't. All of the postures have good applications and bad applications - it's down to the practitioner to work that out.
"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"
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