Tai Chi Gim Question

[Ao Qin]

I'm wondering if people familiar with Chen, Yang and Wu (and other) Gim sets, could share what they feel are the strengths of their particular gim set, over the other styles? What sets it apart?

I'm personally biased towards the Chen Gim - which to me is a set of all-surpassing beauty, balance, and whole-body integration. I don't personally know it - but before I leave this earth I certainly will! Is there usually one gim set per Tai Chi system? Is Chen for instance, better known for its gim set than, say, Yang?

Please share your thoughts!

Ao Qin

[SPJ]

Chen's has all the original fighting sets of Tai Ji Quan.

In comparison, Yang's does not have the difficult ones and the punching sets. Some of the tornado kicks are missing altogether nowadays including Chen's.

Overall Yang's movements are bigger.

Wu's movements are smaller.

They both added new moves to Tai Ji, such as Jade girl weaving (Yu Ni Zuan Sou), Flat Cloudy Hands (Pin Yun Sou) etc.

You may buy vcd's from book stores in China town. You have to study both and then you may do your own comparison.

Fa Jin is dependent on the moves and purposes. All three rely on Zhang Shi Jin (spiral Jin). In Chen's, there are circular strikes (Tang Do Jin) missing in the other 2.

Anyway, a good Tai Ji practitioner may have Jin generated from every parts of your body. (Hwen Shen Si Jin). That is the highest level of all three.

[SPJ]

Tai Ji Jin Gong

Tih, Anh,

Peng Lui Jih Anh Tsai Lei Zhou Gou.

Tan Do.

Zhang Shi Jin.

I have to practice each Jin for 250 times for 45 min to 1 hour, 2 times a day.

I have to assume Tai Ji Primordial stance (Tai Ji Huen Yuan Zhuang) for 25 to 45 min every day.

Let's say you do it right every time, in 10 years or so, you will be Master.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

If i were restricted to only one sword form, Chen Taiji Gim would be it.. If i were restricted to only one empty hand Taiji form, 42 movement form would likely be my choice, still evaluating that one, though..

Be well...

[RAF]

Not all Chen syystems lack a tornado kick--we have right toe kick, left toe kick, left heel kick to the back, jump up to avoid sweep and punch to the ground [groin], turn around double kick, left toe kick to the front, spin around and right heel kick to the front, step toward the back and perform tornado kick to the front, and then 1,000 gin drops to the ground.

With any of the current routines, its very easy to put the tornado kick back in. Our frame came from Chen Fake's father, Chen Yan Xi.

The jian is really interesting. I have yet to find a reference that Yang Lu Chan played a jian. There is some evidence that the Yang jian was introduced to the lineage by either Yang Ban Hou or one of the other sons.

Also I am not sure when Chen received their Jian into the lineage. I have diagrams of the routine that Chen Fake's daughter played but other than that, there also is very little history of their jian play.

The wudang taiyu sword (Chen Weiming described it in comparison to what Yang Cheng Fu taught as indeed a taiji sword) contains 8 lines along with single posture training, two man stationary training, two man circling exercises with applications, a B side to the 8 lines linked, and a second level with fajing expression. [at least what we are taught in our system].

I don't know what is taught in the Chen's basic sword but Plum Publications has two nice demonstration videos showing some of the various sword routines of Chen and Yangs. The first is Roam about the Taiji World and the second is an early 1990s tournament at Chenjiagou--lots of Chen sword performances.

http://www.plumpub.com/

Good luck.

[Midnight]

Ao Qin:

Tho I have only studied Yang, I thought I'd reply to you anyway. I see you're from winnipeg, thought I'd say hi to a fellow winnipegger.

[GroungJing]

Speaking for experience, it depends what you want to do.

To get in shape by learning a high impact form with tornado kicks would be good at any level. This might not be what you’re looking for if you practice something like Yang or Wu style. However, I would recommend the sword form of whatever style you practice due to the fact these forms generally promote attributes found within that particular style.

If your looking to understand sword play…. well that’s altogether something totally different. You can do a form a million times and never grasp swordplay to a high degree. Unless you spar at full contact with real speed and power and study it as a separate martial art you will never master the sword. (And have a real teacher…. not someone who plays at it either… I consider someone who plays at it as one who doesn't study it as a seprate art. Like someone who teaches a hand form then picks up the sword and does a great demo’s form)

You can play at…but master it….no.

I’m not saying that there are no good sword forms out there either . And I’m not saying if you want to learn real swordplay don’t bother with a form. On the contrary, I would say by all mean learn a form. ...but get a qualified teacher. But most would be mistaken that a pratical sword form is one that involves tornado kicks and leaping and jumping. In fact it’s just the opposite. Your dealing with steel where just reaching out and touching someone could be the difference between life and death. A pratical sword form shouldn’t detract from the use of the blade. Notice I used the term "pratical" a form might be good because it promotes athletic ability, but pratical no....

It all depends what you're trying to achieve..... On a practical sense just about any sword form will give you some ability to pick up a stick and smack someone. (and this is good!) So again, I would say stick with the form inside whatever style you study. However if you’re looking for some aerobic action a form with some kicking and jumping could improve your athletic ability. (and this is good too)

[RAF]

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

My comments regarding the tornado kick were directed to SPJ and I believe he was referring to the open hand forms.

None of our sword forms has a tornado kick, however, I also have a modified tornado kick in the Yang form along with all of the other traditional kicks, including a hurricane kick which is also found in Chen's yi lu and er lu forms.



Train well.

[GroungJing]

I was basically directing that post to the originator of the thread.

There is nothing wrong with a sword form that has tornado kicks in it. (IMO) It just lacks practical merit. Not athletic merit. Heck, some of those kicks I can’t do! When I see them perform at a high level I say to myself “oh nice ..very nice!”

[SPJ]

Agreed! about the kicks. It is an execellent post.

I was writing to compare the hand forms from the three. I mistook Cantonese Gim for Mandarin Jin.

Any sword play contains defense and counter attack in a set of moves. Such as Gua then Pi. Ge then Tzi. Jiao then on and on.

Therefore, if you master any sword play well, you are a formidable swordsman. If you study one well, then move on. If not, to study one is enough for the most part.

Yun (Clouds) and Jian Wan Hwa (rotating around the wirst, clockwise or counter clockwise) need a lot of practice.

Even Confuscious has a sword. All scholars in old China had to study sword play. There are plenty of plays around. Pick one you like and also based on your body constitution and speed.

Wu Dang sword play and Ba Gua sword (Gim) need a lot of footwork.

[RAF]

SPJ:

You are correct. From what I gather many forget the wrist training and that is very critical as you state. From there we try to develop the full arm and the waist. The exercises of keeping swords in contact while walking around each other and rotating the arms is one such exercise. From the walking we then execute various applications and counters.


There are a number of stationary two man exercises which require wrist and arm rotation.

Later we also use two movement stationary exercises. E.g. going from a block in a closed cat stance to a thrust into the bow stance.

Good comments and thanks GroundJing for your insights.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

In sword-play i have been instructed, that unless "flowering" or thrusting, the sword should be close to 90° to the forearm.. also, during sword sparring it becomes evident that the pommel (end of handle) of the sword is almost as valid as the blade.. My Sifu was particularly fond of close quarters sword sparring and we spent much time working those techniques..

However, recent Kali/Escrima training is amazingly useful at disarming an opponent.. it absolutely reeks of Taiji sticking and Qinna joint manipulation.. The close-quarter techniques and incorporation of Kali really confuses the traditional stylist..

Be well...

[backbreaker]

Yeah, as far as I have learned ( the first 82 movement xin jia yi lu, and some of cannon fist) I have not seen the double jumping tornado kicks, but my teacher would have the class do spinning jumping double kicks in line drills. And the spinning jumping moves can easily be turned into a double stomping

[Paul_E]

what is gim? is that the whole curriculum, as in all sets that are taught? if it's jian then i'm sorry, i have only been skimming these posts. i'll look more closely later.

thanks

[Paul_E]

Oh I guess it is sword then. I am currently learning a wudang sword set. As I said in that infamous thread my teacher says that wudang contains many movements that are standard to sword sets but what sets it apart is the particular body method. Obviously it's internal so there is whole body movement lead by the dantian and all that. Rounded shoulders, careful distribution of weight. I don't know what else to say. We have done some partner drills as well.

What I find most helpful in learning the form which I'm sure others agree with is to take 4 or 5 movements from the form and drill them. As my teacher said it helps with the form as a whole. I used to be very gung ho about learning as many forms as possible but now, with the exception of cardio workout, I find the drilling to be more beneficial in terms of understanding the movements.

oh, I also find that the coordination that comes from trying to understand the wudang form has helped with my emptyhand practice. Unfortunately, I don't know any other sword forms....

Paul

[backbreaker]

LOL, many times I will repeat one move of a form while I am doing a form, because it just didn't feel right to me, or I felt the martial intent was waek, so I end up repeating moves over and over anyways before going to the next one.

[ngokfei]

IMO

Yang and Woo have the softest gim/jian set emphasizing more balance and health then application (depends on the teacher)

Wu and Chen are more combat oriented as they use the spectrum of the body and power projection.

As far as I know Yang Lu Chan didn't teach a sword form but was very famous for his spear skills. Quite possible it was added later probably by his son but today many Yang schools teach different sword sets.

Chen family weapon sets are pretty recent in their present form. While based on much older sets/techniques.


In regards to the Hand forms I think it really has to do with the teachers experiences. There seems to be a trend in regards to the discovery of secret sets only taught inside of families but its hard to say.

I can only speak for myself (a wu stylist) as I perform the set I know in many different ways. These would include the flavor of slow method - medium continuous method to a fast exploding/releasing method including stomps and jump kicks.

Tai Chi is a real treasure in that it can have many expressions.

[Ao Qin]

Hi again - I would just like to thank everyone for responding to my questions! I learned a lot, and truly appreciate everyone's input! I wish I had something of value to add, but I don't.

One of my goals is to learn this set from a Chen Style Master, before I take my bows and leave the stage of life!

Cheers - Ao Qin