WC Punch... Elbow locked?

[william]

The school I used to practice with taught that the straight punch should done with a relaxed fist and the elbow should lock every time.

They stressed that the arm and fist should be relaxed to avoid popping the elbow.

Due to that school closing down and my move to University I had to find a new school, there were no wing chun schools, but I did manage to find a school that pracised a range of chinese MAs including wing chun, CLF, weapons etc. Not Ideal but better than not kung fu at all.

However the teacher says that the elbow should not lock, in stead the arm should be tensed at the last moment of the punch, with the arm straight but not locked.

Any thoughts on this would be good,

Cheers

W

[KPM]

The elbow should not be "locked" with each punch. First, because over time this will produce damage to the joint, and second, because many if not most people will go into a small amount of hyperextension when the elbow is locked and the arm will not be straight. This will throw the line and accuracy of the punch off.

Keith

[kungfu cowboy]

The elbow is not used at all.

[couch]

I concur with Dr. Keith. When you punch - at the point of impact or near the end of extension - squeeze your fist together. Don't squeeze so hard that your fist gets all contorted, but by putting stress on the muscles in the arm, you create a powerful weapon and won't end up extending fully.

Be fully aware of hyperextension and the fact that it can happen. That's why I always stress in class that the "attacker" should punch through the mit and the mit-holder should never step back. If this was the case, the puncher would punch air (expecting the mit's resistance) and hyperextend every time.

I wanna be practising Kung-Fu when I'm 80. Easy on the joints and hard on the muscles. :)

Take Care,
Couch

[kj]

We neither "lock" the elbow, nor do we tense the arm or fist. Not ever. Never.

Reasoning: Tensing "distorts the sun character," affects accuracy, and increases the risk of breaking the fist/hand when our strikes are "substantial." Even a small amount of tensing has some impact (we are very, very nit-picky on this stuff, lol). This is in addition to the negative, if momentary, impact on sensitivity, ability to flow and change at any micro-moment, and providing a more skilled opponent enough stiffness to utilize against us. As a side benefit, there is no concern about the dilemma of mis-timing relax/tense cycles.

Rather than forcing or throwing our punches, we practice them by "placing" them with intense accuracy. In the sets, for example, the arm fully extends, but not to the extent of "locking." Since the emphasis in this practice is on precision and efficiency rather than raw speed, there is no hyper-extension. We don't worry about how many punches we can do in a minute; we instead concern ourselves with sending each and every one as perfectly as possible.

When striking a person (or sandbag or other object), it is not advisable to fully extend unless a) the path for striking is clear, b) the punch can indeed and sufficiently penetrate its target, and c) the striker is not at undue and imminent risk of joint manipulation. It is also a bad idea to extend too far at the expense of pushing yourself back (which is also an indication that the horse needs more work, and possibly other elements of posture and sensitivity as well).

Just offering our variation on some common themes and concerns in striking, FWLIW.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[PaulH]

Interesting, Kathy! I do more of a nail and hammer analogy, so some tension at point of discharge seem very natural. Thanks for your very good post!

Regards,
PH

[kj]

Originally posted by PaulH
I do more of a nail and hammer analogy, so some tension at point of discharge seem very natural.

Understood, Paul. I think we can both agree that balancing risks and benefits is where it's at.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
The elbow is not used at all.

Umm wing chun punches utilize the elbow...

A locked elbow is a broken arm. You should never be tense. Never clench your fist either. Once you practice enough you will find that upon impact your fist will naturally clench. In wing chun you are not necessarily striking your opponet, you are striking through them. If you tense your fist upon impact you may tense your wrist and perhaps hurt yourself. Practice 1000 chain punches a day against a bag or some other punching device at half or less power, and don't fully extend.

Also, btw Choy Lay Fut is a very good martial arts system. I have met some brilliant CLF guys that I would never want to fight on the streets.

Good luck with your training.

Now when shadow boxing go ahead and train the maximum. You want to always train the full range of motion that way. It will help build attributes to help your kung fu.

[anerlich]

I've been shown both allowing the elbow to extend fully and "pulling" it at the last minute.

My current instructor has been doing it with full extension for 30 years with no ill effects.

Bear in mind you punches are normally meant to connect with something BEFORE full extension. You are not training to do air punches unless you are a forms competitor or trying to break the speed punching record, etc. So, ideally punches thrown in anger are connecting with something and being decelerated before full extension is reached.

Doing full power kicks with full extension will rapidly and painfully show you the negative effects of hyperextension on your knee and hip. If you want to practise full power kicks, do it on a bag or some other solid object. The same is undoubtedly true of the elbow but to a lesser degree as the mass being stopped by the tendons at full extension is not as large.

Pavel Tsatsouline advocates "shakeouts" for the leg tendons, where you do fully extended kicks at substantially less than full power to strengthen the tendons, to guard against or mitigate damage in a situation where you miss the target with a full speed/power/extension kick. There may be some advantage to strengthening the tendons in the elbow similarly - though I would be happy to be guided by medically qualified opinions in this regard.

[kungfu cowboy]

No elbows used for punching, no knees used for kicking.

[jonp]

i keep the elbow bent on wall bag work - and try to stay
as relaxed as possible

air punching i fully extend - but only after i gained the flexibility
to rotate my upper arm on extension so the elbow faces in
while maintaining the vertical fist

of course i maintain a low elbow until this rotation.

cheers

-jon

[Gangsterfist]

It was said to me that the elbow acts like the hand and your forearm is a hammer or a spear depending on the strike. Your elbow is always guarding the body by structure when you are punching using centerline theory, so the elbow is definately used.

[kungfu cowboy]

Remember the "immovable elbow" theory? A-HA!!

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
The elbow is not used at all.

ok


No elbows used for punching, no knees used for kicking.

ok


Remember the "immovable elbow" theory? A-HA!!



what?

Sorry, I am confused are you agreeing with me or not?

[anerlich]

I don't know if you "use" the elbow per se, but I think it is next to impossible to deliver a decent straight punch without some change of the angle at the elbow. Hook or uppercut perhaps, but not a straight punch.

I thought it was the correctly timed recruitment of as many joints (or musculature and tendons/ligaments around the joints for the pedants) as possible that developed maximum power in the punch, or any other strike - which in the case of the straight punch I assume would include the elbow.

I think the "immovable elbow" concept is more related to the defensive structure than the mechanics of a punch.

[kungfu cowboy]

Yes. If you were a geneticist, and you altered a clone of, say, Englebert Humperdink, which caused said musical genius to be:

1) born without elbows
2) as well as lacking knees
3) then teach him wing chun

And there you have it!

[william]

Thank for the interesting responses!

After reading them, I trained last night, and here is my dilemma:

If I keep my arm as relaxed as possible and straight punch with speed my arm tends to lock by accident. I guess that might just be practice though.

So trying to relax, and not lock the elbow felt very strange and certainly not very powerful.

If the old theory is correct that power (or is it force) = speed x mass. The faster you do it the more powerful it becomes? So trying to do the punch faster lead to more accidental locking!

I feel as though that momentary tension before impact/on impact stops the hyper extension, and it feels to me as though when I punch with tension at the end, that all the force or energy shoots out from my arm and into the target, whether wall bag, or whatever, but I swear I can almost hear it when I do it in the air!
Like the quick snap of tension acts like a release of energy, outward from my body to where ever it needs to be directed.

I asked my teacher I and he explained it like this: a fast relaxed punch hits like a whip, but a punch which is fast, relaxed with slight tension on impact acts like a whip with at chunk of metal bolted the end! Thus causing more damage and being more powerful.

Any thoughts would be great,

Cheers,

W

[Keng Geng]

Pressing the shoulder down and back into it's socket makes it almost impossible to lock the elbow, and facilitates kungfu cowboy's immovable elbow theory without effort. The punch hinges from the shoulder as the kick hinges from the hip. So the shoulder needs to be a solid base.

The chain punch is usually a series of bad punches because of all the elbow movement, porporting to be "elbow power" - not so.