Why Catch Wrestling Is Inferior for WC supplementation

[Knifefighter]

I had so much fun stirring things up with my Wing Chun analysis that I thought I would do another comparing and contrasting Catch wrestling with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu as a supplement to Wing Chun training.

Background:
Fights are unpredictable and the Wing Chun fighter would be wise to supplement his stand up training with a comprehensive ground system.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is an art that specializes in groundfighting/groundgrappling. It was originally developed from Japanese judo/jujutsu. Catch wrestling also specializes in groundgrappling and has its roots in English/European catch-as-catch-can grappling traditions. Both systems have a variety of submissions (or hooks) designed to disable an opponent. The two disciplines have several theoretical and practical differences which are contrasted below:

Fighting from an Inferior Position:
No matter how good your takedowns are, if you meet a better takedown artist or someone who is significantly larger than you are, you will probably end up on the bottom if the fight goes to the ground. Being on the bottom is a very disadvantageous position in which to find oneself. A fighter who can fight effectively from the bottom position significantly increases his chances of surviving or winning if he ends up in this inferior position on the ground.

BJJ has taken the basic bottom ground defensive position of Judo (the guard) and refined it to the point that a good BJJ fighter has as good or better chance of winning the fight as the person who is in the top position. There are literally hundreds of joint breaks, chokes, and sweeps in a variety of variations that have been developed in BJJ for use when on the bottom. The guard has become such a strong offensive weapon that some BJJ fighters even prefer to be in this position.

Catch wrestling, on the other hand, has not developed much of a repertoire of bottom fighting (some Catch wrestlers even speak disdainfully of the guard by calling it the "*****" position) and most Catch wrestlers prefer to attempt to regain the top position. However, this is easier said than done when one comes across a ground grappler who is talented (and/or bigger) at maintaining the top controlling position. Unfortunately, for the Catch practitioner in this situation, he doesn’t have much of an offensive arsenal when on the bottom.

Mixing Strikes, Breaks, and Chokes:
Striking an opponent, breaking a joint, or choking him unconscious are the three main methods to incapacitate an opponent in an unarmed combative encounter. An art that successfully combines these three will have an advantage over an art that does not.

Most people understand that the BJJ system is made up of a large number of joint breaks and chokes. Many people are not as familiar with the ground striking in this art. BJJ is comprised of gi training and Vale Tudo (anything goes) training. The gi training is pure grappling and is made up of positioning, sweeps, chokes, and joint locks. BJJ Vale Tudo training is composed of striking, in addition to many of the submissions found in the gi training. Three of the four main positions that are given top priority in BJJ (the knee ride, the mount, and the back mount) are mainly striking positions.

By contrast, Catch wrestling is strictly a grappling art. Catch has many submissions, but does not include striking into the system. Without strikes and the understanding of the positions necessary to create powerful strikes, the Catch wrestler has a distinct disadvantage compared to the BJJ practitioner.


Position Before Submission, Submission From Any Position:
An accomplished grappler understands the positions that allow for both maximum control and maximum opportunity to inflict damage to an opponent. Although he strives for a superior position, a competent grappler will have the knowledge and ability to finish an opponent if a joint break or choke presents itself from a less than ideal position.

BJJ strives to find a position that will provide the greatest control and/or allow for maximum damage to the opponent. The four positions that allow for these criteria are known as the side control position, the mount, the knee ride (or knee on stomach/knee mount), and the back mount. At the same time, a competent BJJ practitioner will know when to go for finishes from less than ideal positions such as the 1/2 guard, the guard, when mounted, or even when transitioning from one position to the next if the opportunity presents itself. BJJ has submissions from every position on the ground.

Catch wrestling has a different philosophy and places very little emphasis on positioning. Because of this, Catch practitioners will often attempt submissions when they have opportunities to first establish a position that will make these submissions less risky to apply. Catch wrestlers are also unsophisticated about the bottom guard position and, because of this, have relatively few offensive weapons from the bottom position.

Use of Clothing:
Most real-life encounters involve both combatants fully clothed wearing shirts, sweatshirts, and or jackets. Being able to control an opponent and apply chokeholds using the opponent’s or one’s own clothing can add greatly to a person’s fighting proficiency on the street.

Due to its training with the gi, BJJ has a large range of techniques that can be used to control and disable an opponent using the opponent’s shirt, sweatshirt, or jacket. There are a wide variety of chokes available to the BJJ practitioner using not only the opponent’s clothing, but his own as well.

Catch wrestling, on the other hand, mostly ignores the importance of using clothing in fighting applications. Because of this Catch has no control or choke techniques using an opponent’s clothing.


Conclusion:
My conclusion is that Catch wrestling is an inferior choice for grappling supplementation to Wing Chun. Wing Chun practitioners who wish to supplement their training with groundfighting would be much better served by Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

[anerlich]

2.85

[Ultimatewingchun]

Knifefighter:

Your ideas about what Catch Wrestling's all about...are so clueless that I won't even respond to you. But I will say this much - Do that chip on your shoulder a big favor and walk into a Tony Cecchine Catch Wrestling seminar with it.

Because that chip is just begging to come flying off.

[Knifefighter]

UWC,
Instead of ragging on me personally, why don't you write a reply that supports your position?

Nevermine... that would require well-thought out reasoning.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Now I already know IN ADVANCE that you will attempt to make believe that I didn't support my position with the explanation I'm about to give...

Because I'm sure that you have read what I'm about to write BEFORE...ON OTHER THREADS that I participated on...and yet you still try to act like you don't get it...

But nonetheless I will take the bait and indulge you on just one point - since it is the most crucial point of all:

In Catch...It's about CONTROL....and submission....and control CAN BE HAD from so many different "positions"...that Catch doesn't emphasize the term position the way you do...

Of course Catch talks about and trains a number of "positions".
But since CONTROL is the KEY factor...

AND SINCE ANY NUMBER OF A MULTITUDE OF "POSITIONS" MIGHT ACTUALLY RENDER THE CONTROL NECESSARY FOR A SUBMISSION TO BE APPLIED...

Catch therefore talks about CONTROL AND SUBMISSION...rather than position and submission. Once you start to talk about having to gain a specific position(s) before going for a submission - you by definition LIMIT yourself to a relatively small amout of "positions" and "possibilities" of ending the fight as quickly as possible...

Not to mention the fact that iron-clad rules about certain positions might actually turn out to be FALSE...

ie. - Sakuraba submitted Renzo Gracie while being in what BJJ considers an "inferior" position. Go figure !

And with that...I say finito to my participation on this thread.

[Knifefighter]

See Victor... you did it! You rebutted one of my points with rational argument without telling me how clueless I am... and without even using too many personal put-downs. Nice job. See this debating stuff isn't so hard afterall.

Now try to do the rest with my other points. Maybe you can even come up with some additional ones of your own that could support your argument for the superiority of catch.

[KenWingJitsu]

Catch vs. BJJ on a Wing CHun forum? Oy Vey! WHat is this world coming to? lol.

Anyways, i am pretty aware of the differences between both...heh.

[CHEUNG-WINGCHUN]

i'm in the fortunate position of suplimenting my wingchun with freestyle wrestling, seeing as thats ALL i did in primary and highschool, not in a team, but all my friends were wrestling enthusiasts... ahh the joys of natural wrestling ability, you dont need to think about anything and things usually work your way very easily

[kungfu cowboy]

What is this "groundfighting"?:confused:

[captain]

i'm sensing "only child syndrome"!

[kungfu cowboy]

Yes. I defeated my siblings at standup! Seriously though, some arts just don't need a ground game. They are just that good. However, it might not be a bad idea to learn some of these moves until your skill improves and you may then discard the child-like training wheels.

Super serious though:
Why don't people insist on groundfighting arts working on their substandard standup? Seems like it should go both ways. Not unlike men in prison.

Actually, hows about you do what you like, get good, and quit worrying about real or imagined holes in your training?

Spread it too thin, and there ain't enough butter for the bisquit!

[captain]

no,no,cowboy,i meant the thread starter!

[kungfu cowboy]

Oh. I take it all back! Long live BJJ!

Actually I do think it is worth checking out
all ranges, but I don't think that any are intrinsically superior.
Of course, I am a twit though.:)

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by CHEUNG-WINGCHUN
i'm in the fortunate position of suplimenting my wingchun with freestyle wrestling, seeing as thats ALL i did in primary and highschool, not in a team, but all my friends were wrestling enthusiasts... ahh the joys of natural wrestling ability, you dont need to think about anything and things usually work your way very easily

LOL
I'm sure you're kidding, 'cause that attitude is just asking for trouble. LOL

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
Super serious though:
Why don't people insist on groundfighting arts working on their substandard standup? Seems like it should go both ways. Not unlike men in prison.

They do. It's not uncommon for grapplers to cross train in muay thai or boxing.

Actually, hows about you do what you like, get good, and quit worrying about real or imagined holes in your training?

Spread it too thin, and there ain't enough butter for the bisquit!

Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? forms, hundreds of techniques, weapons, chi gung, chi sao, trapping, chin na, iron body... Who is spreading themselves too thin here?

[kungfu cowboy]

Well, they should have to xtrain in wing chun to balance the argument!

So we should get rid of all martial arts except for:

BJJ
Muay Thai
Boxing

as all the others are useless or substandard.

This seems to be the ideal.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Knifefighter:

Since so many people I like and have come to respect enjoy much of your anti-wing chun remarks I decided to go back and reread that thread and this one about Catch...

And while I still have some doubts about exactly where you're coming from (attitude wise)...nonetheless you put alot of thought into this thread...so I'll respond further about Catch and BJJ.

About Karl Gotch and his distain for the guard position: You should know that when he first went to Japan he was awarded a black belt in judo after spending exactly one day in the class -because they were so much in awe of what he could do against them with Catch...

I mentioned on the CONNECTING WING CHUN w/GRAPPLING thread that there were a number of submissions that could be used almost immediately against the guard...and I will state once again that I won't divulge much about that on the internet.

But I will say this - it's not that difficult at all (especially for a wing chun guy with the hand skills developed) to NOT allow him- self to pullled in and/or to extricate himself and sit back up WITH ARMS/HANDS close to his body...if he is pulled in and down..
(ie.- see Sakuraba vs. Royce Gracie when in Royce's guard)...so that arms are not extended thereby providing the opportunity for the BJJ fighter to pull off an armbar or a triangle, or whatever)...

Now listen carefully....as this is just ONE fundamental way of quickly defeating the guard position...while "sitting" with the arms/hands back....REGARDLESS OF HIS ATTEMPTS TO ENGAGE/PULL/PUSH/GRAB your arms and head - or punch at you...

YOU NOW HAVE THE SUPERIOR POSITION...from the Catch point of view...because it is now (even if you just have one arm completely free for just a brief moment - although two is definitely possible)...it is now possible to downward elbow strike the nerves/arteries (pressure points) that exist on the insides of his legs (whether it's a closed guard or not)...

these points are about three inches away from his knee caps and up and in towards his thighs...HE CANNOT STOP YOU FROM BANGING THE 5HIT out of them...

and the pain is NOT bearable....his legs will split open and you can pass the guard or start setting him up for any number of submissions that I won't discuss...I'd rather show you someday.

[old jong]

Let's forget all about martial arts and go back to simple brawlling.The biggest and strongest will win as it is meant in nature anyway.

[Ernie]

old jong

no need to get rid of martial arts the biggest and the strongest still win most of the time today anyway ha ha ha

[kungfu cowboy]

Yeah, well maybe at shuffleboard!

[CHEUNG-WINGCHUN]

Originally posted by unkokusai


LOL
I'm sure you're kidding, 'cause that attitude is just asking for trouble. LOL

you didn't back anything you said up with anything at all?

i've been in over 500 wrestling fights on the street/school, which beats 2 - 3 jujitsu classes per week in a safe environment

think whatever you want, but when you wrestle everyday, (not fixed positions or safe manouvres) you learn some GOOD tricks

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
Well, they should have to xtrain in wing chun to balance the argument!

So we should get rid of all martial arts except for:

BJJ
Muay Thai
Boxing

as all the others are useless or substandard.

This seems to be the ideal.

Now you're being silly. I didn't say anything was useless. However, that combination is what has yielded the best results for most people, and it's been adopted as the "MMA formula". Many MMA guys have a traditional background - I've studied karate, longfist and kali, among other things, and there are guys at my gym that have studied aikido, tkd, karate, etc.

I am more comfortable with my thai boxing and my judo, so that's my method - thai boxing and judo for standup, bjj for ground. You gotta find what works for you. If you want to see if WC and grappling will mesh well - test it. Enter some tournies and get the experience of testing yourself.

Now, what I will agree to is that some styles have substandard training methods. As with my CMA example, learning all of that stuff, how long will it take you to get good at it? The learning curve tends to be higher with most CMA other than shuai chiao.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Knifefighter:

Since so many people I like and have come to respect enjoy much of your anti-wing chun remarks I decided to go back and reread that thread and this one about Catch...

And while I still have some doubts about exactly where you're coming from (attitude wise)...nonetheless you put alot of thought into this thread...so I'll respond further about Catch and BJJ.

About Karl Gotch and his distain for the guard position: You should know that when he first went to Japan he was awarded a black belt in judo after spending exactly one day in the class -because they were so much in awe of what he could do against them with Catch...

I mentioned on the CONNECTING WING CHUN w/GRAPPLING thread that there were a number of submissions that could be used almost immediately against the guard...and I will state once again that I won't divulge much about that on the internet.

But I will say this - it's not that difficult at all (especially for a wing chun guy with the hand skills developed) to NOT allow him- self to pullled in and/or to extricate himself and sit back up WITH ARMS/HANDS close to his body...if he is pulled in and down..
(ie.- see Sakuraba vs. Royce Gracie when in Royce's guard)...so that arms are not extended thereby providing the opportunity for the BJJ fighter to pull off an armbar or a triangle, or whatever)...

Now listen carefully....as this is just ONE fundamental way of quickly defeating the guard position...while "sitting" with the arms/hands back....REGARDLESS OF HIS ATTEMPTS TO ENGAGE/PULL/PUSH/GRAB your arms and head - or punch at you...

YOU NOW HAVE THE SUPERIOR POSITION...from the Catch point of view...because it is now (even if you just have one arm completely free for just a brief moment - although two is definitely possible)...it is now possible to downward elbow strike the nerves/arteries (pressure points) that exist on the insides of his legs (whether it's a closed guard or not)...

these points are about three inches away from his knee caps and up and in towards his thighs...HE CANNOT STOP YOU FROM BANGING THE 5HIT out of them...

and the pain is NOT bearable....his legs will split open and you can pass the guard or start setting him up for any number of submissions that I won't discuss...I'd rather show you someday.

How are you controlling his torso? What's stopping him from sitting up and attacking?

[kungfu cowboy]

Do what you love and the money will follow!:)

[Ultimatewingchun]

SevenStar:

I'm posting a leg/foot...which will play a key role in not only stopping him from sitting up and attacking...but there's so much that can happen with it posted to the advantage of the Catch fighter.

P.S. - If he underhooks the ankle/leg - he only makes it easier for any one of numerous Catch submissions to result - contrary to what BJJ thinks it can do with that underhook.

But I WILL NOT GO ANY FURTHER about those possible submissions, and why the underhook provides a huge oppotunity for the Catch fighter - they literally have to be seen - not endlessly debated over the internet.

So I will return back to my first point - the BJJ fighter cannot stop the elbow strikes that will not only split his legs far apart - but the pain will provide ample opportunity for the Catch fighter to start entering into the submissions - OR-

the split in the BJJ fighter's legs - coupled with the pain (and the time that the shocking pain provides the Catch fighter)...these two factors can often make for a total passing of the guard into the full mount.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
these points are about three inches away from his knee caps and up and in towards his thighs...HE CANNOT STOP YOU FROM BANGING THE 5HIT out of them... Of course he can... do you think those of us who train Vale Tudo BJJ have not had that done to us many times in the past?


Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
mentioned on the CONNECTING WING CHUN w/GRAPPLING thread that there were a number of submissions that could be used almost immediately against the guard...and I will state once again that I won't divulge much about that on the internet. I'm always a little suspect about the "too deadly to be explained on the internet", but OK. Of course there are many submissions that can be used against the open or closed guard... we use them in BJJ all the time when someone has a guard that is tough to pass. However, it's not a simple matter to just pull them off, as most guard players have a large number of counters to them.

My problem with your statements on grappling is that I think you don't have that much real hands on experience with experienced submission grapplers. My bet is that you have taken a few seminars, have some tapes, and roll with the students in your studio who claim to have much more grappling experience than they actually do (one clue to this was the "experienced" BJJ guy you were working with from the mounted postion and his response to your bridging attempt to unbalance him and make him post his arm) . And I don't think this is a very viable background on which to make sweeping statements such as catch being "superior".

As far Tony's C, he doesn't come across with an attitude of superiority (at least he didn't with a bunch of BJJ guys in the room). However, I would immediately challenge any assertions of superiorty if he was claiming them.

If you really want to test some of your theories against decent BJJ guys (rather than just some of your students who claim to have BJJ training), stop by Maxercise (ask my friend, little Tony, to tell you some interesting stories about a "famous" catch guy training there), Renzo Gracie's, Steve Kardanian's, or Phil Magalarize's BJJ schools, all of which are in your area. Spar with them and I think you will come away with a different attitude about the "superiority" of Catch.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
If he underhooks the ankle/leg - he only makes it easier for any one of numerous Catch submissions to result - contrary to what BJJ thinks it can do with that underhook.

But I WILL NOT GO ANY FURTHER about those possible submissions, and why the underhook provides a huge oppotunity for the Catch fighter - they literally have to be seen - not endlessly debated over the internet. I will then...

It makes it that much easier for the top guy to step over into a submission.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Well then thank you for agreeing with me that the guard can be beaten by Catch Wrestling moves.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Well then thank you for agreeing with me that the guard can be beaten by Catch Wrestling moves. Of course it can. I do it all the time, myself. Doesn't make it superior, though.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Knifefighter: Eh...no...excuse me...but I'm sorry - since I can tell just as many stories about experienced BJJ guys going to Tony Ceechine seminars and either getting smoked or just laying back and enjoying the ride without objecting when Tony starts explaining and showing how to deal with BJJ.

Which he always does in a gentlemanly way.

As for me - I've worked out with BJJ folks with 30 years experience - as well as novices - intermediates, etc. BJJ is an excellent grappling system - as I've said many times...but it's not the best.

Get over it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Oh yeah...and P.S....I'll say it again....

You CAN'T stop the elbow strikes to the insides of the legs near the knees - not against good wing chun hands anyway - which you obviously don't know about - regardless of your "6-7" wing chun years.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
BJJ is an excellent grappling system - as I've said many times...but it's not the best.

Get over it. I never said it was the best, although I believe it has fewer weakenesses than catch.

The best grappling system is a combination of BJJ, Sambo/Judo, freestyle/folkstyle/Greco-Roman, and catch/submission that takes the best elements from each.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Oh yeah...and P.S....I'll say it again....

You CAN'T stop the elbow strikes to the insides of the legs near the knees - not against good wing chun hands anyway - which you obviously don't know about - regardless of your "6-7" wing chun years. You might be surprised at what I can or can't do.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Now look...this really has to be my final post on this thread...
because you're just so far gone that I'm really beginning to waste my time.

You just said that BJJ has far fewer weaknesses than Catch - to which your opening post on this thread attempting to explain Catch's weaknesses only betray the fact that you know very little about Catch...at least not the Catch that Tony Cecchine teaches...and believe me when I tell you that he's miles ahead of anyone teaching Catch openly in this country. So get your hands on his tapes and/or attend one of his seminars...AND THEN GO BACK AND READ YOUR FIRST POST ON THIS THREAD...

You'll be embarassed, to say the least.

Secondly...the absurdity of saying that you know and use Catch moves to defeat the BJJ guard...while still maintaining your "Catch is inferior" position...this absurdity borders on the ridiculous.

I've really had enough of this thread.

Adios,

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by CHEUNG-WINGCHUN

i've been in over 500 wrestling fights on the street/school, which beats 2 - 3 jujitsu classes per week in a safe environment

think whatever you want, but when you wrestle everyday, (not fixed positions or safe manouvres) you learn some GOOD tricks

I'm sorry I didn't see this nonsense earlier! Is this fool still about?

[yuanfen]

Spread it too thin, and there ain't enough butter for the bisquit!
(kung fu cowboy)

Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? forms, hundreds of techniques, weapons, chi gung, chi sao, trapping, chin na, iron body... Who is spreading themselves too thin here?
(seven star)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, there is not much sustained discussion of wing chun- even though it is labelled as a wing chun forum!! This is NOT knocking sevenstar or knifefighter. It is a critique of wing chun folks who get sidetrached away from serious in depth discussion of wing chun. Discussion- not pontification or lineage waving, sarcasm, oneupmanship.

I am struck by how little in depth discussion of wing chun and taichi there is
in the differnt kfo forums. Apparently top flight southern mantis people dont really discuss either except for occasional personal attacks. Serious folks in serious arts seem to have gone elsewhere-folks who are not in awe of the mma mix.

Apart from street applications- some wc folks have particpated in open full contact matches in parts of Asia.

What can I say- folks get sidetracked into superficial comparisons with other arts/sports highlighted by the visual media.

The so called mma formula -mixes of box/muay/jj is geared for
sporting events. That is not knocking in any way the courage of anyone entering those events or any contact event..

A tried and proven CMA like wing chun has developmental principles for varying contexts for self defense. With good guidance and sticking with the principles- the range of applications for individuals increase with learning, practice and experience.

Sevenstar-Wing Chun does not spread itself thin- all the items listed above
are interlinked in a very consistent systemic way. But it does take longer to learn than basic muay thai. BTW- trapping, iron body- are misleading labels. None of them including chin na, chi gung, weapons are logically separate arts- they are all developmental stages and growth along the wing chun path .

Knifefighter- nothing wrong with conditioning- a necessary but not sufficient thing for skill development. And conditioning should be activity specific. Obviously- Genki Sudo in UFC 47 hasa somewhat different training regimen than the rest.

WC can be adapted with proper coaching for sport competition- for those who are so inclined. For some good folks however - not enough money or principle is involved in going the sporting route.
Self defense and self development is higher than sport in their hierarchy of values.

WC does not need iron body- some do iron palm and wall bag work in addition to the jong. Different kinds of trapping and chinna occurs naturally with proper wing chun maturation.
They are not separate arts or isolated techniques.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by yuanfen
The so called mma formula -mixes of box/muay/jj is geared for sporting events.



WC can be adapted with proper coaching for sport competition- for those who are so inclined. For some good folks however - not enough money or principle is involved in going the sporting route.
Self defense and self development is higher than sport in their hierarchy of values. WC is no more valid for self defense than is the MMA mix.

[Nick Forrer]

depends entirely on whos trying to defend themselves

[joy chaudhuri]

knifefighter sez:
WC is no more valid for self defense than is the MMA mix.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont think so- but it depends on competencies of individuals as well.

Most of the critiques of wc that I have heard on the forum- flows from arrested wing chun development IMO.

I think that it is a waste of time to debate wing chun with non wing chun people who dont know much wing chun. Forum talk is just forum talk. I for one always hope for greater insights from
top flight wing chun people.

I have no problem with people defecting to mma- the more the merrier. WC was nevera mass art and attempts to make it one imo is a mistake.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Mistake #1 -

Thinking that wing chun has all the answers one could ever need against a real good takedown artist.

Mistake #2 -

Thinking that, once on the ground against a good ground- grappler, - wing chun has all the answers one could ever need to win the fight from there.

Conclusion:

Wing Chun is no more valid for self defense than the MMA mix.

[Phil Redmond]

Joy, You wrote >>Most of the critiques of wc that I have heard on the forum- flows from arrested wing chun development IMO.<<

It was good of you to write "IMO". Yip Man taught erratically. Pardon my choice of words, but he taught different aspects to different people. He would tell people they were doing something right when they may not have been. Also, some of us are aware of another situation in Yip Man's life. I've studied from 3 direct students of Yip Man and they all concur. So outside of some of the basic tenets of WC that we commonly share none of us can say they have THE truth regarding WC.

[yuanfen]

Phil-

"history" even recent history involves perceptions. Hence I always have the qualifier IMO in mind. Truth-? Ultimately there is only emptiness.


I understand that Ip Man taught "erratically"(your words). I prefer
"unevenly" or "selectively"..

The habit of saying yes-yes which is mentined sometimes applied to his public classes' He would often just let some senior students do the actual teaching while he just sat or moved around.

Wing chun was his living and he was unlikely to give out freebies.
Those who took addittional private lessons paid through the nose
and he was quite careful in his instruction there ..and there was quality control . Some fudged on tuition and some were erratic in attendance-not an uncommon phenomenon in many kinds of training and education.

I am not naive about his private life and I do not regard him as a saint.

By the time his sons came from the mainland- his public teaching was just about over. His health deteriorated till his death shy of a decade later.

Much of the stories on Ip Man or learning from him is self serving.
No point in opening the closet of self serving stories.

There is a way by which folks can sort out much of wing chun---by putting lineage aside however temporarily and seriously and failry egolessly discuss the what, when, how and why of wing chun principles and applications. Without sarcasm or one upmanship(its usually the men). Moments of serious discussions when that happens are very fleeting- and extremly rare on the net.

Face to face serious conversations about the art are so much better even though perceptions can vary there too.

I do not mechanically depend on "sifu sez" or "Ip man sez". I analyze and test and think and experiment. Wing chun consistencies have not failed me yet.

With just a little bit of wc(not you) folks start giving advice, pontificating, bragging or critiquing or get sidetracked and engaging in mma discussions..

Lots of noise- very little information on the net.

[Ernie]

joy

it's funny i read your last post about real information being shared , and the realitiy is those that '' claim'' to have real information . either only talk about historical crap that is just meaningless .
or they skirt questions with answers like '' not all wing chun is created equal '' or if you knew the real wing chun you wouldn't ask that question .

you never here them offer information like , well we address that issue in this or that drill and thne add this to make it functional .

never .

it's like they just hide behind catch phrases , that have been handed down .

it really sucks , these supposed informed people offer no tangible information .

but they love to pick apart others . and answer with generic stories .

i think if these '' self proclaimed kings of the castle '' really had solid wing chun and cared for the wing chun folks in general they would just step up and share there experiences . right or wrong it's just the honest effort that counts .

sure there are trolls just waiting to get there rocks off and attack .
but that will always be there

but there are a lot of new people and good people that can learn from others experience .

i never understood why people hide there knowledge since it's not theres to begin with , it was handed down and should be passed on .

i guess it all comes back to pride and money

oh well people are odd creatures

:)

[PaulH]

Not all history stories are equal, Ernie! I like this one. Ha! Ha! I don't know why people are so uptight lately. Just wanna have some fun. =)

The Prime Minister of the Tang Dynasty was a national hero for his success as both a statesman and military leader. But despite his fame, power, and wealth, he considered himself a humble and devout Buddhist. Often he visited his favorite Zen master to study under him, and they seemed to get along very well. The fact that he was prime minister apparently had no effect on their relationship, which seemed to be simply one of a revered master and respectful student.
One day, during his usual visit, the Prime Minister asked the master, "Your Reverence, what is egotism according to Buddhism?" The master's face turned red, and in a very condescending and insulting tone of voice, he shot back, "What kind of stupid question is that?"

This unexpected response so shocked the Prime Minister that he became sullen and angry. The Zen master then smiled and said, "THIS, Your Excellency, is egotism."

[Gangsterfist]

I do not know catch wrestling at all, only what victor has pointed me towards. I am grateful to have the knowledge of the system now I can research it further if I wanted to do so.

I will admit I have some years of experience in martial arts, in several systems. Wing Chun so far is one of my favorites. I train it everyday. I have not had like 30 to 40 years experience like some of the people on this forum. So, when people like victor, phil, and joy speak I listen. I know they all have decades of experience with wing chun. Joy finds that wing chun has never failed him. Thats great. Wing chun has never failed me either, but I have not really put it to the full test either. Any real fight I have been in ended pretty quickly, either with words or with fists. However, I never start fights (its usually friends of mine) but I do get dragged into some.

Victor says his experience says catch wrestling helps him out as a fighter extensively. That is great. He is meeting his goals by expanding his martial arts knowledge.

Then there is ernie, the man just tells you like it is. I like that aspect a lot. I think a lot of wing chun is too much theory no reality.

Each of us can put forth our own views towards wing chun and we can each learn from one another.

Joy, have you ever trained another martial art besides wing chun? If yes, would you say those attributes and skills you gained from the other system carry over to wing chun?

I just recently learned a southern dragon short form (only has 19 postures) that is similar to wing chun in many aspects and has some really neat things that can be used with wing chun. So, I started training and practicing them all this last week. I don't think my wing chun is inferior in any way, shape, or form because I learned another style of martial arts. I learned it to expand my horizons as a martial artist, not to pick up where wing chun lacks. I am no expert on wing chun, but I am no beginer either. If I were to ever start teaching wing chun in the future, I would definately also teach additional arts with it (taiji, boxing, that dragon form, and some sort of grappling). Just to expand some ideas about wing chun.

I agree with joy's post about being more constructive towards wing chun. Sometimes its hard to put aside ego and lineage. Especially when there is someone attacking your lineage with their ego.

[Ernie]

g fizzle my nizzle :D

one thing you pointed at that is so true , i to learn from every one that puts it out there in a honest way ,

somethimes it's just a better way to say somehting i allready know , a better way to get the point across
i have borrowed terms from every one
form joy,jong,phil.hendrik to hfy guys [ tony ,william. etc.]
i mean every one

and i am very thankful for there input and knowledge
and in turn try and kick back something into the pot from my experience

and good things come

the boxing thread proved to me that it is possible for all of us to contribute something and not get side tracked i can only hope this trend will continue

as joy put it we have lost some a few great voices due to '' silly '' energy

but for me personally i have met some kick butt friends from this forum and i plan on meeting more :D

[yuanfen]

Ernie sez:
i guess it all comes back to pride and money

((Ernie- I understand where you are coming from. For me-actually I am a quite gabby and sharing guy. Wing chun is my love- not my living. But with sharing- there are folks who when faced with only knee jerk cynicism- just think- just chuck it! Just watch and sometimes laugh))
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
gangsterfist sez-

Joy, have you ever trained another martial art besides wing chun? If yes, would you say those attributes and skills you gained from the other system carry over to wing chun?


((GF- I dont push my ma cv. Been around the pond with different styles and "real" self defense. No point in trying to beat one's drum. Pre wing chun- I had my own mix of striking, grappling and kicking. Wing chun consistently- since 1976(MA lot longer than that)- without a break- and adjusting to things along the way. I do visit and watch other styles, have practiced some myself. But for me- the wing chun paradigm has absorbed the insights of other arts along the way. But I have been humble about learning from good pugilists, kickers, grapplers, stick people and knife people.
When I hit with the hook these days- its a wing chun hook not a boxing hook. Thus I do not swivel on the ball of my front foot for hooks anymore or load up on my shoulders. The power is still there but there are more versatile uses. My chor ma is the source of my wing chun hook. Thats a very specific example-(no bs or noise) of "absorption" into the wing chun paradigm. If you miss witha boxing hook- you can be monetarily off balance. Not so in wc if you have your chor ma/chum kiu down pat. You can convert the motion inside someones house(gates) to something else.
When I kick someones knee on the side-its witha wing chun instep kick- nota bando kick or a muay t kick.
Sorry- for any typos- believe ot or not I spell well but key board poorly with one or two fingers while snacking or whatever.

yuanfen/joy

[Gangsterfist]

Sorry- for any typos- believe ot or not I spell well but key board poorly with one or two fingers while snacking or whatever.


Perhaps biu gee finger jabs will help your keyboarding skills while you eat - lol just kidding.

I hear ya joy. When I cross train its not because I think wing chun lacks (to be honest I like to have multiple perspectives on things) it is because I have the desire to learn more than just wing chun. I will always practice wing chun and never give it up as long as I can, but will also train other systems. Before I die I would like to train in CLF and perhaps hsing-i or another internal art. I would also like to go back to my okinawan karate and get my black belt (I was almost a brown belt when I moved and had to stop training).

I train ground fighting with the ground fighters I know. There are some BJJ, JJ, Judo, wrestling people I know that I train with every now and again. We will share techniques. I show them a few wing chun things, they show me a few things from their system.

When it comes down to it, I am mostly just about learning. For example I learned a complete southern dragon form last week, and have been practicing it every day along with my wing chun. Its a neat little form, and IMO can be effectively used with wing chun.

Good luck to everyone in their training,
GF

[Ernie]

Sorry- for any typos- believe ot or not I spell well but key board poorly with one or two fingers while snacking or whatever.



hey don't worry joy i am the king of typos
i might impress people one day if i ever took the time to reread what i type or discover spell check ha ha ha

[FooFighter]

Knifefighter

I am not an expert on wing chun gung fu or an expert of grappling but I have been trained in wing chun longer than I have in BJJ. I have trained and taken lessons at Renzo Gracie Academy and Marcos Santo schõol and even taken lessons in Sambo at FightHouse in NYC. I have never been to any grappling seminar and all my knowledge of Catch Wrestling has come from seconded experience: books, essays, and DVDs.

I dont understand why you would insult Catch by calling inferior. But you are correct in some of your points. If Wing Chun artists had to cross train in grappling arts, I think anyone with common sense and hard work can make some use in any grappling arts and while there are pros and cons. It the Grappling world, I am learning these martial artists are adapting far faster than conventional martial artists such as wing chun. It is still my belief that wing chun gung fu does have some useful techniques in its forms. Duncan Leung and Alan Lee has taught me to look at each movement within the forms as indivdual signs like the the letters in the alphabets instead of prearranged techniques. So somewhere within the form, I believe an intelligent wing chun artist could create new tenchiques to manage against a grappler? This doesnt mean wing chun is better than grappling, but it can manage to adapt as best as it can on the standup phase and in mid range of combat.

"Fights are unpredictable and the Wing Chun fighter would be wise to supplement his stand up training with a comprehensive ground system." I agree. Most Wing Chun in the past has studied western fighting arts such as boxing to counter it intelligently and still we have debates on how to handle a jab and hõok. LOL.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is an art that specializes in groundfighting/groundgrappling. It was originally developed from Japanese judo/jujutsu. Catch wrestling also specializes in groundgrappling and has its roots in English/European catch-as-catch-can grappling traditions. Both systems have a variety of submissions (or hooks) designed to disable an opponent. The two disciplines have several theoretical and practical differences which are contrasted below:

Fighting from an Inferior Position:
No matter how good your takedowns are, if you meet a better takedown artist or someone who is significantly larger than you are, you will probably end up on the bottom if the fight goes to the ground. Being on the bottom is a very disadvantageous position in which to find oneself. A fighter who can fight effectively from the bottom position significantly increases his chances of surviving or winning if he ends up in this inferior position on the ground.

BJJ has taken the basic bottom ground defensive position of Judo (the guard) and refined it to the point that a good BJJ fighter has as good or better chance of winning the fight as the person who is in the top position. There are literally hundreds of joint breaks, chokes, and sweeps in a variety of variations that have been developed in BJJ for use when on the bottom. The guard has become such a strong offensive weapon that some BJJ fighters even prefer to be in this position.

Catch wrestling, on the other hand, has not developed much of a repertoire of bottom fighting (some Catch wrestlers even speak disdainfully of the guard by calling it the "*****" position) and most Catch wrestlers prefer to attempt to regain the top position. However, this is easier said than done when one comes across a ground grappler who is talented (and/or bigger) at maintaining the top controlling position. Unfortunately, for the Catch practitioner in this situation, he doesn’t have much of an offensive arsenal when on the bottom.

Mixing Strikes, Breaks, and Chokes:
Striking an opponent, breaking a joint, or choking him unconscious are the three main methods to incapacitate an opponent in an unarmed combative encounter. An art that successfully combines these three will have an advantage over an art that does not.

Most people understand that the BJJ system is made up of a large number of joint breaks and chokes. Many people are not as familiar with the ground striking in this art. BJJ is comprised of gi training and Vale Tudo (anything goes) training. The gi training is pure grappling and is made up of positioning, sweeps, chokes, and joint locks. BJJ Vale Tudo training is composed of striking, in addition to many of the submissions found in the gi training. Three of the four main positions that are given top priority in BJJ (the knee ride, the mount, and the back mount) are mainly striking positions.

By contrast, Catch wrestling is strictly a grappling art. Catch has many submissions, but does not include striking into the system. Without strikes and the understanding of the positions necessary to create powerful strikes, the Catch wrestler has a distinct disadvantage compared to the BJJ practitioner.


Position Before Submission, Submission From Any Position:
An accomplished grappler understands the positions that allow for both maximum control and maximum opportunity to inflict damage to an opponent. Although he strives for a superior position, a competent grappler will have the knowledge and ability to finish an opponent if a joint break or choke presents itself from a less than ideal position.

BJJ strives to find a position that will provide the greatest control and/or allow for maximum damage to the opponent. The four positions that allow for these criteria are known as the side control position, the mount, the knee ride (or knee on stomach/knee mount), and the back mount. At the same time, a competent BJJ practitioner will know when to go for finishes from less than ideal positions such as the 1/2 guard, the guard, when mounted, or even when transitioning from one position to the next if the opportunity presents itself. BJJ has submissions from every position on the ground.

Catch wrestling has a different philosophy and places very little emphasis on positioning. Because of this, Catch practitioners will often attempt submissions when they have opportunities to first establish a position that will make these submissions less risky to apply. Catch wrestlers are also unsophisticated about the bottom guard position and, because of this, have relatively few offensive weapons from the bottom position.

Use of Clothing:
Most real-life encounters involve both combatants fully clothed wearing shirts, sweatshirts, and or jackets. Being able to control an opponent and apply chokeholds using the opponent’s or one’s own clothing can add greatly to a person’s fighting proficiency on the street.

Due to its training with the gi, BJJ has a large range of techniques that can be used to control and disable an opponent using the opponent’s shirt, sweatshirt, or jacket. There are a wide variety of chokes available to the BJJ practitioner using not only the opponent’s clothing, but his own as well.

Catch wrestling, on the other hand, mostly ignores the importance of using clothing in fighting applications. Because of this Catch has no control or choke techniques using an opponent’s clothing.


Conclusion:
My conclusion is that Catch wrestling is an inferior choice for grappling supplementation to Wing Chun. Wing Chun practitioners who wish to supplement their training with groundfighting would be much better served by Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. [/B][/QUOTE]

[old jong]

But don't forget that choosing a martial art is not the same as choosing a car!...The options don't work by themselves in a martial art.You must be able to make them work with you own physical and personal attributes.The best art for some guy may be ill adapted for the other. so: It depends on the guy,as always!...;)In a race,the winner is the one who can drive his car better,not the car. (Formula 1 not included!);)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Foofighter:

You and Dale Frank...or is it Steve Ewing...(alias Knifefighter) really need to go back to the beginning of this thread and read what I wrote about Catch Wrestling - as a response to Knifefighter's initial thrust(s).

The guard position is one of the most overworked and overrated positions (strategies) in all of the martial arts...

The guard doesn't contain "literally hundreds of possible submissions and breaks"...(after the triangle choke and the arm-bar all the rest belong in a book- not the reality of a streetfight - because they almost never work)... and nothing could be further from the truth about Catch being limited....the reverse is the truth...the amount of submissions AND positions used in Catch are virtually unlimited - compared to BJJ.

One last word about the guard - Catch has about a half dozen different ways of beating it...and by that I'm not just talkng about breaking out of it - but of turning the tables on the guy on the bottom so that he will quickly submit.

And the reason why I personally recommend Catch Wrestling to anybody (and especially Wing Chun fighters) is precisely because the Catch emphasis on CONTROL AND SUBMISSION means that Catch can submit you from any number of positions...not just the limited few (and the limited formula for progressive positioning) that BJJ adheres to....in other words...

there's more you can do with Catch...including standup submissions and submissions from a kneeling position - which is more conducive to the spontaneous strategy and numerous variations that Wing Chun uses (ie.- the alphabet you, yourself, referred to).

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by FooFighter
I dont understand why you would insult Catch by calling inferior. I only called it inferior as a response to UWC's (who obviously has extremely limited knowledge of BJJ based on his posts about it) post where he stated that catch was superior to BJJ.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
The guard doesn't contain "literally hundreds of possible submissions and breaks"...(after the triangle choke and the arm-bar all the rest belong in a book- not the reality of a streetfight - because they almost never work)... And you know that how?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Okay...Dale Frank....Steve Ewing:

Let me just throw the question back at you. By now I've seen what seems like hundreds of UFC and Pride fights wherein somebody is in the guard (and I do have literally over a hundred matches on tape by now)...don't ever remember seeing even one submission come out of it that wasn't one of the two I just mentioned...Have seen photos in magazines and what not of the omaplata arm lock (or whatever it's called)...but never saw it actually put on successfully in a MMA event.

Why is that ?

[kj]

Originally posted by yuanfen
There is a way by which folks can sort out much of wing chun---by putting lineage aside however temporarily and seriously and failry egolessly discuss the what, when, how and why of wing chun principles and applications. Without sarcasm or one upmanship(its usually the men). Moments of serious discussions when that happens are very fleeting- and extremly rare on the net.

Face to face serious conversations about the art are so much better even though perceptions can vary there too.

<snip>

With just a little bit of wc(not you) folks start giving advice, pontificating, bragging or critiquing or get sidetracked and engaging in mma discussions..

Lots of noise- very little information on the net.

I could hardly agree more.

Originally posted by Ernie
it's funny i read your last post about real information being shared , and the realitiy is those that '' claim'' to have real information . either only talk about historical crap that is just meaningless .
or they skirt questions with answers like '' not all wing chun is created equal '' or if you knew the real wing chun you wouldn't ask that question .

you never here them offer information like , well we address that issue in this or that drill and thne add this to make it functional .

never .

it's like they just hide behind catch phrases , that have been handed down .

it really sucks , these supposed informed people offer no tangible information .

but they love to pick apart others . and answer with generic stories .

i think if these '' self proclaimed kings of the castle '' really had solid wing chun and cared for the wing chun folks in general they would just step up and share there experiences . right or wrong it's just the honest effort that counts .

I'm a bit lost and uncertain who these always and nevers are, and reluctant to make assumptions. Perhaps it's an archetypical or composite generalization rather than an assertion about actual and individual forum members?

sure there are trolls just waiting to get there rocks off and attack .
but that will always be there

Yes, unfortunately there will always be that.

but there are a lot of new people and good people that can learn from others experience .

i never understood why people hide there knowledge since it's not theres to begin with , it was handed down and should be passed on .

Lots of reasons why people may not be sharing a great deal at a given point in time. Some common explanations are far less sinister. For examples: not enough time to post (e.g., other priorities and demands of life); excessively challenging to exchange on some topics or technicalities given different backgrounds and premises; differences in communications styles and skills; lack of common interest (for example, popular topics like MMA not particularly interesting to someone like me, and topics of interest to someone like me apparently not of high interest to frequent posters).

It often boils down to opportunity costs - everything we spend time on is at the expense of time for something else, contributions to discussion forum topics being no exception.

i guess it all comes back to pride and money

Sometimes, though I don't buy always. As complex beings, there are lots of underlying motivators to deliciously complicate things. If we look carefully and patiently enough, wholly or partially admirable qualities are sometimes involved (e.g., aspects of loyalty, gratitude, humility, effective time management, etc.).


oh well people are odd creatures


You got that right - odd and interesting! I may occasionally catch myself becoming annoyed, frustrated or impatient, though being somewhat philosophically inclined, I've yet to convince myself I'd have it any other way.

Back over to y'all for Catch and other debates. At least until more interesting [to me] topics pop up. ;)

Regards,
- kj

[Ernie]

kathey

what's up stranger :)

who am i talking about , well it's one of those if the shoe fits things .

anyone who answers genericly with programmed responses

like all wing chun is not created equal blay blah

that is a cop out .
explain why perhaps this other version works better offer a detailed discription or drills that dial in the said attribute

i think people asnwer this way out of not having the real answer


to me it's like this

it's not that complicated , if you really inderstand things you should be able to find a simple way of answering and sharing information

problem is i feel people don't want to be called out on there answers , or perhaps in some cases admit they don't have a personal experience with that question or situation

which sucks , if you don't know then you don't know doesn't make you less of a sifu or wing chun person

anyone who claims to know everything is a liar , fooling themselves or there students

i got no respect for that type of person

but the person that can admit well you know i'm not sure lets play with it and see what happens

now that is impressive

but i do understand there are different levels of interest in anything so i'll catch you on the next post that brings you into the game :D

[kj]

Thanks Ernie - I get you better now. Seems more an issue with ways of behaving or responding than with characterizing individuals per se. This I can understand, especially from someone as straight-shooting as you are.

Just got back from a great week of training on the left coast; returned with a ton more stuff to work on as usual. The proverb "repair one's terrible kung fu" was authored for me. ;) Eternally grateful to those on this forum and off (you know who you are :)), who spent time with me and helped me out in all manner of ways.

It'll take me some time to dig out on messages, forums and what not. I'll keep watch for those rare topics that irresistibly draw me in, lol.

Meantime, take care, and watch out for bad guys. :D
- kj

[Phenix]

i have borrowed terms from every one
form joy,jong,phil.hendrik-----

Nah Ernie, you did borrowed my HULA DANCE terms yet.

See, NG MUi Goes to HAWAII. and thinking you all WCK people are just too not Dynamic at all with the YJKYM.

Some stand wide some stand narrow, but all like rigid robot. So,
Ng MUi invented the Huladance --- the sister of YJKYM in dynamic! the one set combination of SLT/CK?BJ. as seen below!



http://hulasource.com/hula4healthdvd.html

The invincible magic Tan Sau Hawaii way.
Notice the hands has to be close to 90 degree angle and not clamping the heck dead. and smile too, dont do it in a serious poker face and eyes of tiger. (WCK is suppose to be like in the picture Smile and relax!)


Ok borrow this term HULAKYM.

So, man, learn this new version of WCK before those Wrestling. You got to update your WCK first :D


BTW, this is Ng Mui's top secret on how to build up shock body energy. Qi into the Dantien, 1,2,3 chakras, Kundalini.....
http://www.joyofbellydancing.com/bdtips2.htm#Tips

ok, here it says joy of belly dancing. It is not saying Joy. :D have to clear it here so you dont mis-qoute Ernie. :D

[old jong]

I love belly dancing!:)

[Ernie]

i have a discount ticket for hawaii on my desk right now
looks like i might be working on that version of wing chun soon
:D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Ernie
i have a discount ticket for hawaii on my desk right now
looks like i might be working on that version of wing chun soon
:D


Hey Man the shock HULAKYM is great! :D

The Belly Wann Yon Yiu ( return you sou waist :D as the back bend in BJ or Jim's KU LAU) is super!

Learn that before you do your BJ or BJJ or BJJJ :D A MUST!

[Ernie]

bro
i was born on a island can swing my hips with the best of them ha ha ha

[Phenix]

See, I light up this topic! :D



hahahahaha,

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
By now I've seen what seems like hundreds of UFC and Pride fights wherein somebody is in the guard (and I do have literally over a hundred matches on tape by now)...don't ever remember seeing even one submission come out of it that wasn't one of the two I just mentioned...Have seen photos in magazines and what not of the omaplata arm lock (or whatever it's called)...but never saw it actually put on successfully in a MMA event.

Why is that ? Wait a minute... I thought we were talking effectiveness in a street fight. Aren't you one of the people who said that a street fight is too different from the ring to draw conclusions?

Well, anyway... When I first started training, I used to hang out with a group of BJJ guys who used to go out and get a bit rowdy, so I have been witness to a variety of finishes from the guard in the street. Among them, in additiona to the triangles, arm bars and muultiple variations thereof:
-Several collar chokes.
- Umaplata/figure 4 toelock combo. Tank Abbot was also caught in this in a UFC.
- A variety of foot locks, heel hooks, and knee bars.
- Taking the back to the Mate Leon choke/arm bar.
- Not to mention the double wristlock, which is much more realistically applied from the guard than the way you were trying to do it when mounted.

And if you remember, in my post I was talking not just about submissions, but also sweeps which get you from the bottom and onto the top.

[Ernie]

kf[island dog]
hey
i plan on getting into some ground stuff this summer , i got a few sources , but you got any names in my area i should check out

i got no desire to really get all bjj'd out or go though the system just dabble a bit and spend some time one the ground with some trust worthy types


thanks

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ernie
i got no desire to really get all bjj'd out or go though the system just dabble a bit and spend some time one the ground with some trust worthy typesWatch out... you might get hooked like I did.

I'm not familiar with who is on your side of town. I think KWJ is probably a better source of info for that.

[Ernie]

Watch out... you might get hooked like I did

nah i have put some time in here and there but i just love being on my feet :D

in case i need to run away

i enjoy the work out on the ground , great way to break a sweat

i also like how it amps up my sensitivity

just another attribute tool
don't want to get lop sided
and have a preference

also don't want to be blind to the ground game

[Nick Forrer]

Hey Ernie

First time i rolled I got tapped out three times- two armbars cos i left my arm out and one rear naked cos i gave him my back.

[justinmorris]

I didnt have time to read this entire thread but I dont believe catch is totally inferior to BJJ - I have been doing BJJ for 10 years I received the blue belt from Royce gracie 7 years ago and now I am training as an affiliate of Pedro Sauer. About a month ago I rolled with David Menne his style is more like catch and he totally dominated me and we rolled about 40 times and I never even came close to getting him. At the same time I do think a begginer would do better with Jiujitsu because it is based more on position before submission and I think that was mentioned earlier. On another note I also think WC is a great addition to any grappling art. If any of you own a school I would love to send you out one of my free DVDs if you have a tape or DVD available a trade would be great :) just email me at justin@thirdheaven.com or pm me. thanks.

Justin
www.thirdheaven.com

[yuanfen]

Nick- Several years ago- for fun I got on the ground witha guy who has actually entered and won several mma and vale tudo matches.
I would deliberately(remaining alert) give him an arm and leg to see how is bar-s worked.
With my wc micro "adjustments" he could not complete his bar-s.I mention the possibilities- each case is different. Even if someone comes from the back for a choke there are wc countering moves if applied before the door of the choke is closed. Again each case is different.

Individual understanding of wing chun and practice- old saying there is no unstoppable move- but individuals can be foolish,
uninformed. inexperienced or without practice. The individual matters- not just the art.

[Ernie]

nick
i had similar experience to joy
the first guy i ever rolled with was a vale tudo and bjj blue belt
real ****y . his slogan was i am afraid of no man and he was undefeated in local events ,
i got fed up with his mouth one day and said screw it lets spar
first he tried coming in with boxing and thai stuff to try and get me in the clinch

but he was just plain slower then me , oddly never tried to shoot
but i told him i would only spar on the hard wood floors of the gym .

and to be honest i didn't play fair at all , iwas deep into my savate at the time so when ever he tried to come in i would toe kick him in the nuts

finally he just jumped on me with a flying knee anf got the clinch
we went down and he was in the trying to get the gaurd , while he was trying to get his hooks in i just slide out between his legs
he grabbed my neck to pin it on his chest
i had arm between my body and his so i slide my elbow down and just pryed it into his nuts

he kicked of and slide back

an told me i was only good at cheating

i said thank you

but on the same note i worked with vunak on the ground and it was like a slow motion cobra sucking the life out of me
no escape

when you play some one elses game excpect to lose it's just normal and can be fun

[Nick Forrer]

hi ernie/joy

it was just rolling- no strikes or attempts to stand up/ escape so WC didnt really come into it (although the tactile reflexes are always there!)

At one point i Knee'd him in the head by accident when trying to get him into my guard- we had to stop for a bit for him to recover.

still an interesting experience

[Ernie]

nick
for sure man , full body sensitivity , and a great work out
and just a cool way to become familer with the '' big gound mystery''oooooooohhhhh

i think every one should give it a shot just to experience the feeling first hand , and every once in a while just for a tune up

it's just another tool / enviroment to practice your skills

can still train the wing chun mindset

and see if you can insert your tools

when i play i never look for a sub mission i only look at escape and pain infliction , and position

i could care less about holding the tiger by the tail

if a submission just falls in my face cool i'll try it
but bone on bone pain infliction makes more street sense to me at my current levet of understanding

all subject to change in the next 30 seconds:D

[FooFighter]

Ultimatewingchun

If you think Catch wrestling is superior to BJJ than that is your opinion and I will not argue what works for you. But you sounds as dogmatic as KnifeFighter.

Personally if anyone is willing to cross train in any grappling art seriously in NYC, it should be at a Renzo Gracie academy. Because you actually learn and train with serious real deal MMA fighters and if you are serious about testing your skills, Victor. I would suggest that you get on their mat, roll, and try to apply your Catch techniques and then come back here with actually experience to back up your claims. It is like 25 buck a class and go at night and test out your skills there. I am not trying to pick on you, but if are sucessful in applying your catch game in that academy, then I am sure you shut alot of BJJ/wing chuners here. I am kind of curious to see if you be nutts enough to actually go do it.

[Shadowboxer]

:eek:

[Ultimatewingchun]

Listen Foofighter....somewhere around the spring of 2003, I believe it was (possibly earlier)...Renzo Gracie sat in his car in the parking lot at the mall in Laurel N.J. and sent one of his guys in to Keith Mazza's TWC school to check Keith out....the guy couldn't even come close to taking Keith down and got smacked and thrown around in the process....Realizing what was going on...Keith invited this guy to go back outside and tell Renzo to come in and try it for himself if he's so interested in seeing what TWC and the anti-takedown and grappling skills that Keith had was all about.

And that was the end of that...

So why would I want to walk into Renzo's school here in NY ?

For what reason ? To prove something to you ?

[Gangsterfist]

for sure man , full body sensitivity , and a great work out
and just a cool way to become familer with the '' big gound mystery''oooooooohhhhh

Hmm, where have I experienced that before in my wing chun training....

Oh yeah that little thing called chi sao.

Man chi sao is really a genious thing, and can be applied to everything if trained right.

...if applied before the door of the choke is closed. Again each case is different....

That is so true. I had this debate about two months ago with my kung fu brother. He was claiming his micro movement, immoveable elbow techniques would get out of any joint lock. I got him on the groun and clenched a scissor leged arm bar (whatever you call it), and I clenched it pretty hard. He immediately tapped out. If you can't feel the movement coming and act upon it, its too late. But if you can act upon it, wing chun anti-grappling techniques are very effective.

and to be honest i didn't play fair at all , iwas deep into my savate at the time so when ever he tried to come in i would toe kick him in the nuts

had arm between my body and his so i slide my elbow down and just pryed it into his nuts

told me i was only good at cheating

i said thank you

ROFL, OMG thats pretty funny. That is where ground fighting goes wrong IMO. Once you get down to the ground a lot of different factors come into play. If you do not train for that stuff in your (BJJ, judo, whatever) school then you are cheating yourself I think.

[Ernie]

hey victor

i'm having flashbacks from some ground stuff want ask you if you have ever tried this on

forgive me if i mess the terms up


o.k.
so i'm in the mount and the guy is in the gaurd
i have my back up sitting on my legs keeping him from pulling me in

at the same time i got his arms pinned down by holding both biceps trapped to the floor

now i'm in a stail mate right

well i get a little ghetto and just drop a head but into his solarplex

this freaks him out a bit and allows me to pop up to a low squat position

he still has his legs wrapped around me

then i play hammerfist monkey bongos on his nuts

this also causes him to freak out a bit and release his hold

then i just snag a ankle for a standing ankle break

ever seen that one:D

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dale Frank...(Steve Ewing?)...alias knifefighter:

So let me see if I've got this right...You've seen all these various moves and submissions done from the guard?.... IN THE STREET?... Of all places? Many times? Am I hearin' you right?

Well...Let me put it to you this way, man. Flat on my back is the last place I'd ever want to be in a real streetfight...and if I find myself there...and if a double-wristlock is not staring me in the face as an opportunity to be pulled off IMMEDIATELY...I'm outta there. That's the Catch way.

And multiple techniques (moves) used to get back up and on one's feet...and multiple ways to reverse the position from the body scissors (guard) so that I'm now on top...and ways to get back up as an immediate reaction to being taken down down before the aggressor can establish any kind of position... are all MAJOR components of the BASICS that are taught in Catch from day one.

...Including escaping and reversing one's way out from the cross side mount...north-south positions, defending against takedowns in general with sprawls, cross-faces, ****zers, etc.

You know - this whole Gracie Jiu-Jitsu thing about assuming that a bigger grappler type is probably almost always going to put you down on your back and therefore you better become an expert from the guard position really fascinates me...in a way...(and always has) - because it suggests a lot of MISSING standup striking and kicking skills and MISSING anti-takedown grappling skills...

Do you that that Danny Hodge... a great Pro Catch Wrestler back in the day, and former U.S. Olympic team-member, and believed by some to have been an even better amateur than Dan Gable....Hodge not only never lost an amateur NCAA free-style match...BUT WAS NEVER TAKEN DOWN EVEN ONCE AS AN AMATEUR.

What am I getting at? Whatever happened to developing great anti-takedown skills? How ironic is it that Mirko Cro Cop - who is first and foremost an excellent striker/kicker in the MMA world today - he has taken everybody back to school on how to sprawl and throw off attempted taledowns? How ironic is it that he (of all people) is the very best at defending takedowns than anyone else fighting in MMA events today?

And once down on the ground - as I've been saying - the guard is one of the most overworked and over-rated moves in all of grappling....Sakuraba (trained in Catch) proved this very convincingly during three different wins against three different Gracie's (including Royce).

Perhaps there really is a trend emerging in the UFC and Pride now - as Ernie alluded to on a recent thread...Striking, kicking, footwork, and anti-takedown defenses might actually start to replace two guys scissoring each other (the guard) and rolling around for 20 minutes looking for arm-bars and triangle chokes - while trying to avoid being taken out by the ground and pound...

Maybe this new trend will now become the main thrust of MMA events.

Wouldn't that be a kick in the a$$ !!!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

Aside from the fact that you did confuse some terms (you're not in the "mount" if the other guy has his legs scissored around you)...nonetheless - you're on the right track!

Sitting up to avoid being pulled in (though knowing you - you'd probably start biting something if you were pulled in)...but avoiding being pulled in and sitting up is definitely on the list of things to do when caught in someone's guard...another thing to remember is that you don't want to extend your arms too far and especially don't want to cross the centerline with one of your arms (the way armbars and triangle chokes are successful is that they try (for example) to grab your left arm/hand/wrist and pull your arm over to their left side...

Most of the other things you mentioned sound good assuming your hands are free enough to do all that without him trying to sit up and punch at you...attacking his inner thighs with elbows will also find a nice pressure point that will seriously encourage him to open his legs and make it easy for you to escape or perhaps pop up and take an ankle...there's a lot more detail to know about how to do these things without the BJJ guy countering....being careful about how you position your feet when doing a squat....the best way is to post onlyone leg and keeping the space very tight - much too much detail to go into it in full right here - but it's not that difficult (once you've trained it) to actually step over with that posted leg...turning him on his stomach - finishing him with a Boston Crab (which is actually an attack on the small of his back - not is leg)-...turn him over and heel hook the foot...and some other finishes as well.

But you're on the right right track.

[Ernie]

hey i'm talking ground fighting with victor well what do you know


ha ha

well you were dead on with the if he pulled my head in on his chest i would bite , yep right on the nipple and tear if he pushes my head to a side trying to pull a side position i bite the the lat or side of his face if he doesn't tuck in . just slide back and forth on either point
eventually i'll get some air space :)

or at least lunch


don't grapple a grappler but spend time in the pocket to develop the feel it takes to do what you need

this is all the kina muay thai stuff i went through a long time ago

if i ever get into it again i'll share some post on how the blend the jujitsu holds and positions with the biting
but my knowledge is very limitied in both right now

[Ernie]

Perhaps there really is a trend emerging in the UFC and Pride now - as Ernie alluded to on a recent thread...Striking, kicking, footwork, and anti-takedown defenses might actually start to replace two guys scissoring each other (the guard) and rolling around for 20 minutes looking for arm-bars and triangle chokes - while trying to avoid being taken out by the ground and pound...


hell you want to really have some fun screw this one on one crap
toss a few dudes in there on some cement and lets see how many people go to the ground or just do everthing in there power to stay on there feet

wonder of the '' hard core ground and pounders '' would sign up for that

i know i wouldn't :D

[KenWingJitsu]

Vitor my friend. I tried not to comment on this thread lol, but I have to.

"the BJJ fighter cannot stop the elbow strikes that will not only split his legs far apart "

Mmm. Not true. Although sometimes true. The "game when grapplign with strikes is not the same as when just grapling without strikes. Any BJJ'er who has trained Vale Tudo (anything goes) knows hos to prevent himself from being struck while having someone in their guard. the upper boy controls alone will prevent those "elbows". Which is why you dont see them in MMA.

As for the Omoplata,....well you need to watch more recent events. like the last UFC. Franca had a nice one on Edwards. it's not always a submission, but if the submission fails, it leads a sweep/turnover, which I believe is what happened. Also, Minotauro submitted Enson inoue with one (he added a toe hold to it whil Inoue was locked in), Frank Mir submitted tank Abbott with the same move Omoplata into a toe hold. it is being used & it does work.

Now it is true that not enough emphasis has been put on "anti-graplling" but its begining to happen. A la Chuck Lidell etc. but the only way to do it is to be comfortable with the grappling in the first place, that way you can defend whats coming and keep it standing if you want....or stand back up if you are takign down. It takes grappling skils ot be able to do that.

Now as far as the Renzo story, well,...I have my doubts. Not about the story in general, but I seriously doubt Renzo was in the car waiting to see if his student could take down a Kung Fu guy. That isn't renzo's style at all. Not saying the guy didnt come to check the place out, but I seriously doubt Renzo sent him. I've met Renzo and his students a few times. He's only worried about training fighters, not testing kung fu schools, so maybe it was an errant student who wanted to see what WC was about.

[FooFighter]

Victor:

I dislike rummors and second handed stories especially when it is used to prove an argument. I dont know if your Gracie and Mazza's story is completely "accurate"? And to speak ill against any person; be it Renzo or Mazza or William Cheung; etc show your poor character flaw, lack of self respect, and common decency. You should consider learning some manners instead of some grappling moves. I could easily go ask the Renzo Gracie's camp about your story but I am not a trouble maker nor is it worth the time because it proves nothing to my original suggestion.

If it was just a student of Renzo and not Renzo himself who got owned by Mazaa, what does that prove and what is your point to my originally sugesstion? You made it clear that wing chun is not enough to handle grapplers and it is necessarly to study grappling. Remember for the future of Wing Chun? If your story is true, then Mazza has proven himself again as good fighter and has disproves your argument of needing to add grappling into TWC or WC. Another thing, Victor, Mr. Mazza is not on trial nor is Mr. Gracie or their students, but YOU as a Catch wrestler. Lets keep this on you and your comments. Lets not hide behind war stories of others and speak only of your war stories, ok?

If Renzo refutes to fight, I am sure it due to legal issues and not because he is afraid to fight and you indirectly calling him a coward is so lame. Renzo is a really warrior and fought against other great warriors and for him to get dissed by someone like you is a sin, yes a sin indeed. How many real professional martial artists have you fought against? Your students dont count, Victor.
Mr. Mazza is a good fighter and I admire his willing to test his ability and fight and not talk crap. He for example never complaint about his back.

"So why would I want to walk into Renzo's school here in NY?" To work your Catch techniques against experienced grapplers and to have some substance experience to back your essays and arguments on Catch wrestling. Is that a good reason?

"For what reason?"
To actually test your ability and prove yourself and no one else.

"To prove something to you?"
Proving on the key board is one thing and proving in the real world is another thing.

Victor, I never claimed to be a great martial artists have given all due respect to BJJ and even Catch. You have made some big claims here and now I asking you have you ever pulled it off against someone who well trained and conditioned in BBJ?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Foofighter:

You're the one who started all this nonsense - challenging me to go to Renzo's school and try to show those guys that I can beat them...and now you're complaining - after opening this can of worms - now you're complaining about "second-hand stories" ???!!!

And who the f#ck are you to tell me that I'm on trial as a catch wrestler?

Who's trial?

Don't involve Renzo, or Keith, or William Cheung, or anybody else.

If you've got a problem with me - come and see me. Send me a pm.

[Nick Forrer]

My view

The merits of an art do not stand or fall on the performance of one individual in one instance - not bjj, not catch and not WC.

Fighting is often scissors paper stone i.e. a will be beat b, b will beat c and c will beat a.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Listen Foofighter....somewhere around the spring of 2003, I believe it was (possibly earlier)...Renzo Gracie sat in his car in the parking lot at the mall in Laurel N.J. and sent one of his guys in to Keith Mazza's TWC school to check Keith out....the guy couldn't even come close to taking Keith down and got smacked and thrown around in the process....Realizing what was going on...Keith invited this guy to go back outside and tell Renzo to come in and try it for himself if he's so interested in seeing what TWC and the anti-takedown and grappling skills that Keith had was all about.
?

:rolleyes:

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dhira:

I didn't see the latest UFC and if people there and Minotauro in the past have pulled off these moves from the guard I certainly take your word for it that it's happened - but it doesn't change my mind about the guard position. It just tells me that the people who were beaten by the guard don't have the answers to dealing with it that Catch does...whether it be in the octagon, in the street, vale tudo, or whatever.

As regards using elbow strikes to split the guard legs open: certain chi sao manipulations (for lack of a better term) can be used to free an arm (oftentimes both arms) when the guard-holder is trying to hold your arms, pull you in, etc...and once you've sat up and especially after posting a leg - these manipulations can also play a major role in setting up the finish.

One such proto-typical wing chun move is to slap block (pak sao)the inside of the wrist of the man holding your arms with your other hand (I'm sure you know the move) - while simultaneously moving the held arm/wrist towards the direction of the incoming pak...

And once the arm is freed - the guard holder now owns NO TERRITORY between the tip of the elbow-point of the now freed arm and the pressure point (it's an artery) located no more than about 8 inches or so away. It's located near his knee about 3-4 inches down and toward the inside area of his thigh...

And since the elbow strike is downward - you are assisted by gravity in terms of force and power - while he on the other hand is fighting against gravity because he's laying on his back...and especially if your hips and posted leg are tight against him - crowding out his space and maneuverability and making it very difficult for him to sit up and strike at you - he's now vulnerable.

At which point one or two elbow strikes and his legs will open - and the pain should be significant enough to buy you time to start one of the finishing moves I described...or simply to stand completely up and back out from the guard altogether. I've done this move successfully a number of times - including against an experienced BJJ guy.

As regards Renzo...I'm only repeating what Keith told me; but as you suggested...it's possible that this was an errant student. Keith never said that he actually saw Renzo in the car - that is what this guy who came into his school said to Keith...

But you see....I don't know what the deal is in your neck of the woods - but here in NY (NJ) things like this happen all the time and nobody thinks anything of it. People come to check you out (or send a student to check you out) all the time. Was Renzo really sitting in that car? Who knows?

But nobody really cares. I completely forgot about it until this foofighter troll mentioned Renzo in the same sentence with the idea that I should go into somebody's school to test them.

No big deal - as I said. It's not about Renzo, or Keith, or William Cheung, or anybody else.

There are no 400 pound gorillas...no unbeatable styles...no unbeatable fighting families...

What this is really about is foofighter's annoyance that I've posted Catch's answers to and philosophy about the guard and other aspects of the BJJ he so dearly worships.

But I really don't give a rat's as5 about what foofighter thinks - whoever he is. He's just a troll who's looking for somebody to fight his battles for him (in this case it was Renzo and his students)...

But as I know you know - the best way to deal with a troll is to invite them to come out into the sunlight...Well maybe that's the second best way - the number one way is probably to ignore them altogether.

With regards,

Victor

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Nick- Several years ago- for fun I got on the ground witha guy who has actually entered and won several mma and vale tudo matches.
I would deliberately(remaining alert) give him an arm and leg to see how is bar-s worked.
With my wc micro "adjustments" he could not complete his bar-s. Which arm bar was he working? How did you do your wc microadjustments?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ernie

we went down and he was in the trying to get the gaurd , while he was trying to get his hooks in i just slide out between his legs
he grabbed my neck to pin it on his chest
i had arm between my body and his so i slide my elbow down and just pryed it into his nuts Most people would pop on a triangle here.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by justinmorris
I have been doing BJJ for 10 years I received the blue belt from Royce gracie 7 years ago and now I am training as an affiliate of Pedro Sauer. Justin- what is your current BJJ belt rank?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ernie


this freaks him out a bit and allows me to pop up to a low squat position

he still has his legs wrapped around me

then i play hammerfist monkey bongos on his nuts

this also causes him to freak out a bit and release his hold

then i just snag a ankle for a standing ankle break
This is where open guard work comes into play- sweeps, leg locks, etc.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dale (Steve) says ...."most people would pop the triangle here" - in response to Ernie.


IF THEY ALSO HAVE YOUR ARM...

Didn't hear Ernie say that his arm was caught.

[Ernie]

victor
[[[Dale (Steve) says ...."most people would pop the triangle here" - in response to Ernie

IF THEY ALSO HAVE YOUR ARM...

Didn't hear Ernie say that his arm was caught.]]]]]

guys
first of all i have nowhere near the experience or knowledge of either of you guys

to point i was making is
i inflicted pain [ shock and awe ] which allowed me to move into better positions , just like anything it's not a single direct attack but a combination of motions .
being able to shell shock some one is one thing but being able to pot shot them on the way to another goal reading and responding to the body tightening up from the pain is a skill

this skill is what interest me on the ground or standing up . it momentarily remove a person from there element , you get them to hiccup so there normal defense is not there

the guy i was pulling this off on was very egotistcal and just tried to impose his will , so he wasn't really reading me .
when i smashed my head into his solarplex and jumped into the squat and slapped his groin it was one quick action that caught him off gaurd .

he underestimated what i was going to do since i told him i had no ground game

would it work twice probably not , but in a street mind set it only has to work the first time

since i have no real ground skills all i can do is cheat . but i want to get very good at cheating . this requires me to develop some ground skills :D

[FooFighter]

Victor,

I didnt start any nonsense and I was trying to have a civil discussion about your views on the martial arts and you have made huge grand claims about catch wrestling and its effectiveness in additon your wing chun training. I merely asked if you have any real perceptual knowledge to support your theories? All your replies to me have been smoke and mirrors and down right disrepectful.

I didnt ask you to challenge Renzo Gracie himself but suggested that you go test your grappling skills against grapplers, Renzo's students? Who are better to test your grappling skills against than these men in your area? Grappling in these schools aint really fighting, Victor. If you can control and submit these BBJ grapplers, than you are the real deal and much you have spoken about would make more sense and would lessen the doubts in these idle internet dissusions. Does this make any sense to you Victor, or I am being a punk?

Victor, this is a martial art forum where opinions, facts, and theories are exchanged, questioned and challenged. If my questions makes you feel uneasy, then I am sorry that you feel that way. But this is the place, where theories meet other different theories, OK?

What can of worms did I open, Victor? Who is complaining? Tell me what did I say that was false in my last messages to you? You have not given any objective, respectful, mature, reasonable arguments. You have not directly answered any questions and there were holes in your answers. I didnt bring in Renzo Gracie, you did, I didnt bring up Mazza, you did, and indirectly you have brought in your sifu Cheung by stating that his anti grappling techniques worked against Gracie's students attempts to take down Mr. Mazza. I have ulmost respect for these men and never spoken ill of any of them. As for you, the rummors about you are indeed on point. You on the other hand are as unreasonable as those you think are illogical and ignorant.

"who the f#ck are you to tell me that I'm on trial as a catch wrestler?" Who are you to judge other fighter's abilities and styles? If you have the self respect to think and make comments/opinions about others martial artists, then we all should have that same right to think critically and communicate freely. Are you beyond reproach? Again you have opened your cans of worms and I merely questioning the water you have asked people to drink and as a reasonable person I drank and question its source. Unless you have some real hard experience in your Catch wrestling, then most of what you speak about is merely conjecture.

Who's trial? No one, this isnt as dramatic as you are making it, Victor. Dont act as victim and start be accountable and reasonable. You have in past put modified wing chun on trial, you have place BBJ on trial, and you have even place other well established martial artists on trial. If this is true, then you should taste the same gall as you gave others.

"If you've got a problem with me - come and see me. Send me a pm." Is this how you handle yourself? I would love to yum cha with you, but I only yum cha with real respectful martial artists and not insecure, angst ,immature, men who dont know how to reason intelligently and respectfully. Victor, the only problem is you are an unrealized martial artists looking for a security blanket. I have no problems with you, sir. You are my senior in gung fu, right? I am no body special. I just pity that men like you exist and are teaching people gung fu. In the future, when your back is completely better, dont PM me.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Foofighter:

Okay...so you've made an attempt to post something that at least "seems" logical and non-troll like in appearance - but it's your post (and your assumptions behind it) that are full of holes...I don't know who you are but you have obviously been reading many of my posts...quite a few...and talk as if you know me.

This being the case - then I must assume that you read what I once said about "not rolling" just for the sake of rolling - in terms of grappling - that I combine Wing Chun with Catch Wrestling as one unit - that in my school they may be separated for drills and learning purposes and then combined during sparring - but if I work out with someonewho is not already a student or a friend - then I combine the two into one whole unit (for obvious reasons...and which is the whole purpose of combining the two arts anyway: MMA) - and the only time I made an exception was once when visiting Keith's school and he invited that guy with all the jiu jitsu experience and it began with him trying to rush for a takedown and I used strikes (one of which found his eye)...after that I unilaterally decided it would just be grappling vs. grappling - and I know you know what I'm talking about since that's the only time I've ever posted that my back was bothering me - which you keep alluding to...and which, by the way, is no longer a problem - my back is completely back to normal.

Next...It was YOU who first brought Renzo Gracie's name into this - wanting to know if I was "crazy enough" (your words) to go to his school and test Catch vs. BJJ !!! And in your latest post you say I should do that and just go there to "roll"...If you've been following my posts carefully (and you obviously have)...then you know I'm someone who is only concerned with the non-rules of the STREET...I don't train my myself or my students "tournament style"...and as much as I respect the guts, skills, and training regiments of folks who fight in the UFC, Pride, etc...there are still rules and conditions there that I don't adhere to - for my own reasons.

For example, like Ernie, if someone managed to pull me deep into his guard I might bite him...I might stick my fingers in his eye...I might attack the groin when punches are coming down on me from the full mount...to name a few examples...which by the way - is EXACTLY what real, historical "hooking" within Catch-as-Catch-Can Wrestling is all about...it's a brutal martial art that uses strikes, elbows, knees, bites, eye-gouges, fish-hooks in the mouth, in the ear, etc...along with wrestling principles and techniques.

Yes...you are entitled to your opinions...but when you start telling me to go and basically challange (no matter how you word it) in other people's schools - and then start laying out ground-rules that I should adhere to when I'm there...because YOU want to put my wrestling skills on trial...then you deserve a "who the f#ck are you answer"...

And speaking of you - you said that I'm your senior in kung fu - that again suggests that you know me...do you mind telling me who you are?

One last thing - I mentioned that Keith couldn't be taken down by the guy who came to his school - and you think you see contradictions between that and my advocating learning how to fight on the ground - I also once said (in a post on this forum) that if I ever had to fight Keith for real and I couldn't find an immediate disabling way to strike/kick him - that I would try to take him down...that his 237 lbs. would be less effective at striking me when he's on the floor...

I don't see contradictions here - almost anybody can be taken down (or made to go to the ground) if your skills are good enough - and even though I just started a thread entitled UP ON YOUR OWN TWO FEET - about training against takedowns and training to get back up once on the floor...the fact still remains - as I've been saying all along - it's not wise to put all one's eggs in the standup striking and kicking basket...because anybody might someday find themselves on the floor.

So again - who are you?

[FooFighter]

Victor,

Thank you for keeping things civil. You have given a reasonable answer and if you're "experience" in the martial arts lead you to your conclusion and it works for you, then it is valid and who I am to say otherwise. I do believe in a pluralistic univere and with the vast experience of people, things may be true due to its contents.

You have remember something Victor that are tõo many intellectualists in the martial world and here on these forums. Most are great theorists and most arent professional and well established martial artists or for that matter fighters. I take everything with a grain of salt.

Who am I? I am no one special, Victor. I can say that I am a student in Modified Wing Chun and do to personal reasons I could not continue. However, I have been training on my own and have learned some BJJ from friends who studied at REnzo Academy and Machado Academy in NYC. I have even met some real MMA fighters and seen how they train. SO, you in deed by tradition are my senior. I am sorry I was made disrespectful comments to you but I totally reacted to your comments too emotionally.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Foofighter:

All's well that ends well...

And good luck with your training.

-Victor

[Ultimatewingchun]

Thought I'd top off this thread with a post as to why I think that Catch-As-Catch-Can Wrestling - far from being an inferior grappling supplement to Wing Chun - is in fact a perfect grappling complement to Wing Chun.


The very fact that Catch emphasizes Control and Submission... as opposed to always having to be in one of several specific positions - and almost always that position having to be on the ground...in other words - it's always a (specific) Position and Submission philosophy...

The fact that Catch DOESN'T do this - is the very reason why Catch is such a perfect partner for Wing Chun...the very reason why it's so compatible - although there are other reasons as well.

Catch Wrestling's emphasis on Control and Submission means that a submission (or a brutal lock or move that rips, tears, breaks, or otherwise seriously injures the opponent)...can be had from a standing posotion of CONTROL...a kneeling position of CONTROL, and a "position" on the ground.

In other words - the Catch idea is to use your whole body as a weapon - and his whole body as a target....so you don't have to be in a "specific" position - much less a "specific" ground position, for the moves to work.

As long as you have CONTROL over your opponent's body...enough control to deliver the final move successfully.

That's all that matters.

So for instance...in Wing Chun...Do I need to have a person locked up on the ground before I could (should) perform a lop da (grab and pull one of his arms while punching him with my other hand)???

Of course not...As long as I have enough control over his body, his space, etc. to deliver the grab and strike without the danger of him counter-striking, counter-grabbing, etc. -

that's all I need.

The same with grappling.

[Ernie]

victor
have you ever researched dumog

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

No I haven't...tell me about it.

[Ernie]

it's the filipino version of controlling the body through choke and joint points with breaking , moving ,throwing , locking

from the standing , kneeling , or on the ground

done with or with out weapons

the ground is not as detailed as bjj or probably catch
but it was designed with the intent of quick braks and multiple opponents with weapons

very balistic

i like how they train it they have many '' chi sau type' drills were you fight for position of the clinch to the ground


i have some stuff on video if i can dig it up i'll send it your way


reason i bring it up is i have found many similarites in its application with body to body and take downs in wing chun
it's very good on the knee positions as well
quick breaks and still aware of mulitple attack


maybe we can trade some catch stuff for some dumog :D

[Knifefighter]

UWC:
How many actual hands-on, in-person lessons have you had from catch wrestling instructors?

[Gangsterfist]

Ernie,

Sounds like some interesting stuff. I am interested in learning about this dumog system.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dale Frank (alias knifefigher)...

Now listen carefully - instead of constantly asking me for my credentials - just answer THE POINTS RAISED IN MY POST...

And if you have no answer (ie.- the points I make are valid) - and you can't refute them point-for-point...

then don't try to waste my time.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:
Very interesting stuff (dumog)...especially liked what you said about how they do some "chi sao type stuff" going from the clinch to the ground.

Would love to trade some videos with you.

Send me a pm and we'll discuss it further.

Regards,

-Victor

[Ernie]

http://www.maphilindo.com/dumog.html
http://www.geocities.com/global_training_report/dumog.htm
http://www.geocities.com/jkdinstructor/dumog.html#dumog

some links i found on google

but you really need to see it trained to get it

[KenWingJitsu]

By the way, pimpdaddy (that would be me) has tapes on both catch and dumog :D

Victor, your description of control isn't exclusive to catch. Depending on who is training in grappling, as long as they incorporate strikes as well, thenit's ALWAYS about control form any "position". This goes for BJJ, Judo, & Sambo. In the end when they train with strikes, they all control the same way more or less - with the goal of not being hit, while they can choose to hit or submit.

[Ernie]

pimp daddy were the hoes at :)


i emailed you about training

victor i might be able to compress the video and put it on my server . do you know how to connect over ftp

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dhira:

I'm not saying that all grappling systems other than Catch don't go for "control" from any position - with or without incorporating striking into the mix.

My point was - that as far as submissions are concerned - the fact that Catch will go for submissions from virtually limitless different positions - as long as there is control over the oppon