OT: Osama

[Falcor]

Irregardless of whether or not you like Dubbya, what your feelings are about the War on Terror, etc, I think everyone shuld go see this movie:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/ebert1/wkp-news-osama20f.html

Here is the Roger Ebert review of it. Makes you glad we live where we live, no matter how much we may ***** and complain about it.

[Shaolinlueb]

im gonna go see it. i think it looks good.

[Liokault]

Yet sadly it looks like the "new order" in iraq is already seeking Sharia law and is looking to kep women down.....this is even before any hand-over of power from the US.

Also it looks like a resurgence of taliban power is happening in Afganistan.

[dezhen2001]

really want to go see that movie now!

Without starting a flame war, depends on which "shariah" youre talking about - not the one i believe in and study for sure :)

dawood

[Liokault]

By "sharia" I mean strict muslin law.


Now I know that there are lots of ways to look at this and that lots of groups have there own interpritation, but on the report that I was reading it looked like they were basicaly using "sharia" (am i spelling that right?) to keep women out of power and to keep power in the hands of religiouse figures.

And yres, the film does indeed look good.

[dezhen2001]

oh i am pretty sure you are correct, but why not just say "strict muslim law"? :)

These days every man and their dog seems to know exactly what God wants and orders others what to do or forces them to do it. I find it just as shocking as you as its completely anathema to everything i have studied :(

I read a great book on a similar theme called "my forbidden face" which was really amazing - the girl there had so much courage, none of the men that spout all this crud have even 1/2 that!

dawood

[Liokault]

So your not off to Nigeria to stone women to death, just because they were raped then?

[dezhen2001]

actually there was a lot of press about that and a lot of knowledgeable people explained that pretty well, especially why it was wrong :)

Stoning in Islamic Law (http://www.scholarofthehouse.com/islamicsexlaws.html)

Apart from the fact some groups even deny the validity of this as a punishment for adultery as it is not mentioned in Quran at all, i hope the article can give you some idea.

dawood

[dezhen2001]

forgot to make it clear that in islamic law treats rape completely different to consentual adultery, and the article was about the latter.

I didnt think i needed to say that but thought i would anyway saying as how everyone is having a go at us right now :)

edit: its also very similar from what i know of jewish jurispudence too in regards to the same punishment.

take it easy,
dawood

[Vash]

Originally posted by Falcor
Irregardless

:)

[dezhen2001]

true dat :D

dawood

[anton]

As far as I understrand it Shariah is law based on a bunch of precedents set over a few hundred years in trials presided over by clerics. From what I understand, a fatwa was handed down a long time ago, saying that the interpretation of the Quran for the purposes of shariah had reached its ultimate and therefore no more precedents would be set. Hence there isn't a great deal of room for interpretation on many issues.

How accurate is this?

[dezhen2001]

hmmm kinda close to my understanding :)

Gods Law is different from man-made understandings and interpretations of Gods Law. This is one thing even traditional scholars from back in the day were completely clear about. Of course everyone just says "shariah" to mean islamic legal theory/law but there is a difference between something that is from the foundational texts, and something that is applied by reasoning and development of man.

It wasnt just someone saying Islamic Law is fully detailed for all time, it was a heap of stuff such as the mongol invasion, the inquisition in spain and heaps of things that all influenced this. But to say that islamic law is fully detailed basically goes against some of the very principles it is based on... for example it is based on local custom (which changes from place to place: such concepts as modesty, kindness and so on, and punishments for crimes not established in the basic texts etc. are all abstract and fit in to this area) and also the principle "no one school of thought can have exclusive claim over the truth" (or else there would only be 1 school of thought, not the hundreds that developed in different places throughout history and the 4 main schools today in sunni islam).

Islamic Law has a tool called "ijtihad" which basically means free-thinking to develop solutions to thise problems which cannot be solved directly by following a text. Of course based on the principles learned from the foundational scripture and following methods of development and interpretation. In the first few generations this was prevalent as islam expanded across the middle east, and interacted with new problems and new cultures. Thats how Islamic Law developed its own principles after all. But in the middle ages this slowed down a lot as the empire rested on its laurels and "greatness" as well as heaps of things.

Anyway dont want to bore everyone - can tell what im studying huh? lol :)

But many today are calling for a so called "renewal" of this free thinking application... there has been this idea since at least the time of colonialism in Egypt and other places. There are heaps of scholars such as Dr. Muqtedar Khan (http://www.ijtihad.org/) and Dr. (Sheikh) Khaled Abou el Fadl (http://www.scholarofthehouse.com) and Tariq Ramadan (http://www.time.com/time/innovators/spirituality/profile_ramadan.html) to mention a few high profile names who are currently active in this respect.

Anyway probably heaps more than you wanted to hear/know but it is not an easy topic to give nice and quick answers to - if only! :)

(im just hoping i dont get ragged on again :()

dawood

edit: by the way i love that quote of Mat in your sig LOL! :D

[Kristoffer]

****

[dezhen2001]

heard a few other reviews of it too sounds cool :)

dawood

[anton]

Good to see we can have a decent discussion about *gasp* Islam in here without being overrun by anti-Muslim fundamentalists. Good to hear that there are some prominent Islamic scholars pushing more open interpretation of the Quran. Once we realise that texts take on a life of their own and that each reader necessarily reads about himself, we must accept the fact that interpretation is both necessary and inevitable.

[Former castleva]

Once we realise that texts take on a life of their own and that each reader necessarily reads about himself, we must accept the fact that interpretation is both necessary and inevitable.
Could that be a part of the problem?
Are the texts,themselves,somewhat obscure?
If "yes" is the case,then you´ll have a harder time deciding whether a particular interpretation is favourable or not (over another one).

Just a non-expert´s thought.

[dezhen2001]

thats part of the problem, Quran itself tells us some verses are clear an unambiguous, while others are not. This is where linguistics, context and other things comes in to play and if you are not schooled in it, then things can be taken any way you want them to be. But then there is stuff like that if any statement can be understood in more than one way in context, then you cannot make a definitive law using it and so on.

its all real interesting stuff (if youre a geek like me :))

But i guess this is the same with all scriptural traditions and books.

dawood

[Former castleva]

Thanks for clearing that up.

[anton]

This is precisely why so many religions try to avoid putting things into words or describing them directly. Words are open to interpretation, and language by necessity limits any concept it describes, so we never get a sense of the real. Thus in the Torah God has no name, he says: "I am, that I am". Similarly "the Tao that can be spoken...".
Once you start on the road to postmodernism you never know where you'll end up.

Nice avatar FC! :)

[SanSoo Student]

Looks like an interesting movie. Since its shot all on scene, people can be more immersed in the environment the girl is going through. Hope it gets more good publicity.