View Full Version : Perfect Posture Against A Grappler
07-18-2000, 12:35 AM
The mechanics behind most kung fu styles are the same- lower body and legs rooted to the ground, upper body in a straight, relaxed posture, twisting of the hips to gather power. This is by a means a very innovative form of generating power by using the entire body rather just one part of the body (like just the arms or upper body),but however requires a certain body posture. What happens when a fighter is taken out of that perfect posture especially when fighting a grappler. Most of defensive kung-fu tactics I've seen in fighting a grapple is unrealistic or it wouldn't even be considered defense against grappling For instance, in one demonstration of eagle claw
techiques, I saw the attacker, while in a stationary position, grab on to the fighter's shoulder and before the attacker would apply any force with the grab, the fighter would immediantly counter with some sort of techinque to release the grab and execute a chin-na technique. A stationary grab isn't really considered hardcore grappling. If a judo expert or wrestler grabs or rushes a kung fu fighter, manipulating his upper body and uprooting him, putting the kung-fu fighter out of that perfect posture where he cannot generate power using proper kungfu mechanics, what is he to do? Should he, start punching from the shoulders like a boxer? A kickerboxer can at least continue to fend off the grappler with short blows coming from the shoulders, regardless of what position his body is in.
07-24-2000, 04:44 AM
I'm a grappler and I'm now pracitcing kung fu.. I only have one problem with your statment, monkey is the grappling style for kung fu... but how I counter a grappler from a standard fighting stance is to stay on your toe's... it help's to make you mobile and to allow you to "sprawl" on top of him.. by kicking your leg's behind you and landing on his back with your chest and giving you to addvantage.. that's what I do and teach...
Close your eye's and see with your mind.....
07-24-2000, 08:37 PM
Methods againts a grappler:
The key is adapt.
poke his eyes out.
spit at his face.
break his thumbs(he won't be able to grab)
scrape his shins(useful against a headlock)
cup his ears.
bite his arm, nose, ears.
kick his funny bone(not so funny after all)
A fighter's effectiveness lies in his ability to intimidate his opponent. This is why an inmate with no martial arts training(but exposed to an environment where survival is just another day at the office) can scare the black belts of the world.
07-24-2000, 10:51 PM
"What happens when a fighter is taken out of that perfect posture especially when fighting a grappler."
burgernet, good question.
Living, in any capacity, does not exist in 'perfect' harmony. The same goes for kung fu or any other type of martial arts. We practise concepts to engrain an understanding and applicability to a point where theory becomes technically possible.
Because of the dynamics involved in any altercation or interchange between people, perfection of technique is a rarity. And yet, maintenance or applicability of theory can remain true. So even though I might not have been able to execute a 'perfect' strike, the strike I executed is a direct effect (technique) of a greater cause (principle).
The practitioner of any style will strive to achieve their best under any and all conditions. Here, is where faith in one's style and teacher becomes paramount. This question could also lead into a discussion regarding training philosophies and practises. You have some teachers who have students spar early, while others spar perhaps after 6 monhts to a year. The most immediately gratifying and conceret of the two practises is the former, where students spar soon after starting. Usually, technical skills are sacrificed early to be developed later. The latter, where the students do not spar until much later, engrain more technical ability, but usually lack applicability in a free-form situation.
Neither is wrong nor right, but illustrate two vast differences between conditioned learning. Theory is only as good as its application- and application is always dictated by some outside presence. Perfection in this case becomes instantaneous to each action and resulting reaction. Not to some predetermined disposition of what should or should not be.
07-25-2000, 09:57 AM
dear burger, first there is no way of telling if a person is a grappler or not.i will try to explain how to counter the single leg,double leg ankle pick,and double underhook clinch.Those are the basic take downs you would see on the street or nhb ring.in the situation of facing a grappler you need to keep a strong wide mobile footing base.try and keep your legs square so not to make either leg available for a single leg or double leg.Next you need to learn how to anticipate the "shoot" and bridge your body when the person shoots.A bridge consists of throwing your feet out behind you once someone has a commited to a take down.I would recomend getting underneath with one arm under his armpit and the other under his chin.then throw your feet out and putting your hips into his neckas you drag himdownAll this might seem confusing but go to any wrestling tournament,freestyle preferrably and you will see this technique a hundred times.I hope this makes sense to you. PEACE
07-25-2000, 10:17 PM
I practiced sprawling just last week (and my lower back is still killing me), but the way I practiced it was from a double leg takedown, putting more emphasis on actually dropping your hips, and getting your legs free. We started with our partner already wrapped around our legs, attempting a takedown.
I was just wondering what your next move would be if you do get a good underhook on his armpit and chin. I'm still new to wrestling (and a tiny bit of bjj), so I'm just looking for different techniques to prevent takedowns. So far I am just curious about the different variations of the sprawl.
Also, I know you're very opinionated about bjj, and kung fu, but I was just curious what other styles you train in. Sounds like your bjj school has some good wrestling skills, or maybe you have some other history with wrestling. Or I may just be totally wrong.
BTW: I'm trying very hard to stay out of any debates, so all of my questions will always be neutral on both sides (cause that's kinda where my stance on training is anyways.)
07-26-2000, 06:48 AM
thats cool your doing wrestling, good stuff to know.I would like to say i am writing the posts to get a laugh, i dont much care who does what or whos tougher. im actually a decent well rounded person.hopefully everyone will figure that out.Anyways about your question, aside from the sprawl your kinda limited to what you can do in the event of a takedown.My little collegiate wrestling knowledge comes from my jui-jitsu teacher who wrestled at cal state and at jc levels.Two things you need to be profecient in are sweeps from the open and closed guard and submissions from the guard.You gotta figure your gonna get taken down some time so be comfortable with triangle,armbar,and keylocks all from the guard.Dont forget you MUST stretch your neck and back before you do anything on the mat.All those things take years to master but can be applied easily on people w/ no ground exp.As for me the only thing i do besides groundwork is boxing.i try to get in the ring weekly.i also hit a bag daily.one more thing, some judo is good to know if you tie up with some but i know very little about judo.check out www.intheguard.com (http://www.intheguard.com) for some informative teaching clips. good luck and have fun peace
07-26-2000, 07:04 AM
i forgot to mention what to do from the underhook position.if you are in control of the head and arm your first priority is to swivel too the bac.you always go too the opposite side of the arm you have trapped.it makes it easier because the arm will some times prevent you from coming around.once you have gotten to the back you MUST maintain control of the person by maintaining double underhooks around the waist while keeping your hips to the ground to maintain a good base and balance.from ther you can either dotwo things attack the neck for a choke (risky if your balance sucks) or begin to set your hooks in(legs).one leg is forced between their thigh and waist them the otheruntil both legs are "grapevined".if they dont flatten out then you must reach underthir armpit from behind and grab their wrist and pull it in towards you.this will take away their post and become off balance.kind of like a table with 3 legs.once they are flat and you have hoos in they are cooked. try and work the naked rear choke from their.If they wont lift their head cross face them.(forearm under bridge of nose and lift).once again i hope this makes sense and is useful.good luck.PEACE
07-26-2000, 07:08 AM
one more thing you have too drag the person down to get them on the mat facefirst.this is done easily by simply walking backwords and snapping their head down
07-26-2000, 09:01 PM
I figured that you're only posting the way you do just to rile people up, but I'm not going to get involved in all that. I'm just looking for knowledge.
I understand what you mean by taking the back after the underhook. I was thinking about using the underhook to spin them onto their back, but I guess back position would make more sense. I'm also training in wrestling and JJ from a more vale tudo perspective (what strikes am I open for? type of thing). I also like armlocks over chokes, because I need a lot of practice with them.
My stand up is all Kung Fu (I know how you feel about that, so you don't need to throw any comments my way /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). I practice a lot of bag work (bag and focus pads, actually), along with sparring to get the timing and distancing. Yes I do forms, and yes, I think they help me personally. It helps with my endurance, speed, balance and agility, also the ability to string my combos together.
As for the stand up grappling, there's a lot of standing throws, trips and sweeps in my Praying Mantis, but with my friends that also do Judo, and Wrestling, they have helped me to improve my Praying Mantis by showing me how to do it more effectively (if that makes any sense).
I'm glad that you actually took the time to answer my questions, though. You do seem a little bull headed about the arts, but I won't hold that against you (I got plenty of friends like that) /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. Good luck in your training.
07-27-2000, 10:32 AM
jaguar, id ont dislike anything people take time to learn.kung fu is cool,whatever.these guys crack me up.
07-27-2000, 10:18 PM
Kung fu is about flexibility and adaptability.
A Grappler by nature will try to get close in on you.
It is the grapplers goal to get you down and to get on top of you to start striking you.
This can be the grapplers undoing if the grappler limits himself to just grappling.
It can be your undoing if you limit your self to just "stand up" fighting.
Kung Fu systems of many varieties teach Chin Na as well as Shui Jao, these are the equalizers to the grappler. The striking systems teach you about ranges and how to get into or out of range.
If you have done Kung fu long enough, then you should understand "listening energy" and "feeling energy", these will allow you to flow with the grappler and to work with the grapplers energy.
In the end it is the stylist and not the style. The fighter in the real world needs a lot of different skills. To learn many skills to meet many styles, you need to be in a school with a full and complete Kung Fu system or you need to crosstrain in a variety of arts that will cover the areas.
The Kung Fu man from a limited style will face adversity with that which he does not understand.
The grappling man will face the same.
the man with the glass jaw will spend most of his time unconcious.
07-28-2000, 05:07 AM
That brought a tear to my eye
07-29-2000, 12:49 AM
Yes, Kung Lek, I totally agree. Kung fu has the Shuai Chiao, and Chin Na as an answer to anyone that's close enough for a takedown. There are also some good counters against someone that's just going for a plain football/spear tackle. I just haven't seen very many effective ways to deal with a wrestler's shoot (double or single leg) or ankle pick.
I also like playing with Judo guys, becuase they can look at my forms, and the takedowns that I'm attempting and correct them, since a lot of the principles of Judo and Shuai Chiao are similar (Don't flame me with the "true" differences, because I know they're both truly different). It's good hands on help when my sifu isn't always there to help. It also gives me a good look at other styles.
Besides the takedowns and throws from Kung Fu, I also love the slams and ground work from wrestling. Plus with the Chin Na practice it's also very cool to see how Brazilian Jiu Jitsu can apply the locks on the ground. I think it's very fasinating, and a good set of skills to add to what I'm already doing.
Again, you're very right about the "listening energy" from Kung Fu. It has helped me a lot when dealing with escapes from submissions (before they're locked on, that is). It's also good for keeping me aware of any targets to pop an elbow, knee, or pheonix eye into. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
"Methods againts a grappler:
The key is adapt.
poke his eyes out.
spit at his face.
break his thumbs(he won't be able to grab)
scrape his shins(useful against a headlock)
cup his ears.
bite his arm, nose, ears.
kick his funny bone(not so funny after all)"
Yes, it is so easy to break someone's thumb when they are shooting on you. You need to get with the program, if you want anti-grappling techniques, then learn grappling. only in understanding it can you know how to beat it. Next, about the biting and stuff, let me put it this way. If I take you down and am controlling you, if you bite me, I will do the same to you, the difference is that you are in a MUCH worse position. Anyone can bite and claw, including grapplers. You could use all those methods as "Ways to beat a striker", it would be just as ridiculous. and how do you intend to break the thumbs? Ask him to hold out his hands while you attempt to break them? Get real.
"If you have done Kung fu long enough, then you should
understand "listening energy" and "feeling energy", these will
allow you to flow with the grappler and to work with the
Sigh... that sounds all pretty and stuff, but the point is, if you can't grapple, then you can't grapple. If you don't know how to escape when someone has you cross-mounted, this "feeling his energy" stuff isn't going to get you out.
Bottom line, everyone get with the times. You obviously spend time thinking how to beat a grappler so why don't you learn some REAL anti-grappling techniques? Where do you find them? Not in striking arts, but in grappling arts. So go study them and learn how to really be an anti-grappler, by becoming a grappler. Then you can use your striking to it's fullest. if you can't comprehend this and keep in the "just bite him" frame of mind, then you will never learn to beat a grappler. just remember what I said, if I have you down and you bite me, you will pay tenfold. When you're in a bad position, don't give the guy in control any ideas.
Who told you that kung fu doesn't involve grappling? If you found a couple of loser styles that are too limited to tie their own shoes, you still can't say kung fu...say phoenix syle or whatever. Besides I have defeated them all using ninjitsu.
Let me put it this way, have you ever seen a kung fu fighter take down a judoka or a wrestler? No. And you won't see one avoid being taken down by one using kung fu either.
Now, heed the advice from my earlier post.
08-05-2000, 09:43 PM
I know he meant to include kung fu in general, but that is a broad term. He did say that you're not going ot learn anti-grappling techniques in a striking art. I say that you can learn them, but either they're not that effective, or they are not practiced correctly against an experienced grappler.
Again the problem lies in the term "kung fu". If you're talking about the CMA in general there are styles like Shuai Chiao where I'm sure plenty of them can take down a judoka or prevent a takedown. Then there are arts like long fist or praying mantis with a few chin na and shuai chiao elements in there. They can be used to fight the grapplers, but they are often not trained correctly or they are taught wrong.
I do agree with you, though. If you want to counter someone's game, you have to learn about it. I've been "rolling" every week now, and so far not only have I found out how to use some of the anti-grappling things (by practicing them against grapplers), I've also found a whole new world of techniques and principles that I love. Sure I get tapped out all the time, but sometimes I can make it to the time limit (we do three minute rounds and play "king of the mat"). I've never really tapped someone out, but I've prevented quite a few submissions.
08-05-2000, 10:35 PM
It's funny, I'm a Kung Fu guy who has always esposed the value of grappling, long before the BJJ fad. I saw the gracies as just proving a valid point as so many of our breatheren were living in a stand up fantasy world from my perspective.
For the record, Shuai Chioa certainly offers solutions to these situations. So does Ba Ji. So does the Long Fist I learned. So does the short hand boxing I studied. The Ba Ji in particular. It shares some power ideas with Shuai Chiao and has some remarkable solutions to 'shooters'. I guess it depends if you are training the style or just memorizing forms.
On the other hand, we should always look at what others are doing. "Know your enemy and know yourself and you will be victorious in a thousand battles."
And if we can learn from the other guy, all the better. Better to figure it out in training than to get clobbered in the street.
On the other hand, I find the arrogance of a lot of the NHB guys laughable. But I can't really blame them because it is hard to find real kung fu, and a real kung fu guy who will stand up. Just an observation.
"It's funny, I'm a Kung Fu guy who has always esposed the value
of grappling, long before the BJJ fad."
Then that is definitly a testament to your inteligence as a fighter. But for the techniques that these striking arts offer to counter a takedown will be nothing compared to those within the grappling arts. And you have to remember that the only way to get the sensitivity and balance for countering a grappling situation is to actually grapple. You might know these certain moves, but if you do not actually grapple chances are I won't have much trouble taking you off balance regardless, it's sometihng that only comes from lots of time and practice. Likewise, If I stand up with you you will hit me, regardless of what moves I may know, but if I do not actually train in standing arts I will get my ass beat regardless of a few moves.
08-06-2000, 12:59 AM
I agree. You need to grapple in order to know how to grapple. Shuai Chiao is a grapling art. Mei Hua Long Fist has ground fighting techniques.
But you are also assuming a friendly match where I will wrestle with you. And no, I am not talking about being able to prevent anyone from shooting in. Shuai Chiao players know better than that. But there are other methods.
Also, I mean really, do you think you could wrestle me if I was armed? I like BJJ because I think it is morally superior - I can stop drunk uncle al without hurting him. I also like the tactile confidence you get. Same reason I like Judo & other JuJitsu. But I hate to break it to you guys, but there really is some good Kung Fu out there. I just didn't have the good fortune to learn BJJ, which is lucky because I had to fight armed street punks instead of drunk uncle al.
Grappling is not restricted to certain countries or regions. Some of the best guys I ever fought weren't Brazillian but Turks. (But then I never faced Rickson Gracie either, I just watched another of his fights. He's really great.)
It really is a crime that grappling skills were so downplayed or lost due to 'secrecy' and cult like behavior in CMA.
Another thought: Most 'high level' techniques actually are some form of combative grappling as oppossed to striking strategies. Thoughts anyone?
"But you are also assuming a friendly match where I will wrestle with you."
No, I just meant that once it is in a wrestling situation A good grappler will follow up with a counter to your counter, since most grapplers train in combos, just like stand up fighters. I should use this comparison, it is like if you threw a hook at me and I blocked it, chances are where you train in a stand up style you won't just be relying on that one punch and you will follow up with something else before I have a chance to do anything.
"Also, I mean really, do you think you could wrestle me if I was armed?"
If you're armed, I'm going to be somewhere else. I don't care what you train in (while every art has disarming techniques) if you are facing an opponent with a weapon your best bet is to run if at all possible.
I have to mention that I am not a grappler who believes strictly in grappling. In my opinion you should cross train, no matter what your style, that way you are prepared for most situations. I don't train in stand up but I know the importance of it, that is why I at least train on a heavy to practise combos and to keep my punching speed and power up. Not as good as formal training, but at least it is not neglected.
08-06-2000, 02:19 AM
I don't think we are too far off here, Vitor.
The danger I see with an emphasis on ground work, is that you may not know your opponent has a knife until you are rolling on the ground and you suddenly find yourself stuck like a pig.
While it is good to know, at least my (however limited) excperience has taught me this should not be a primary strategy in the street. But you should know how to deal with it if you end up there.
I can see why you would worry about such a thing, but my strategy is if i get the guy to the ground I'm not going to give him a chance to do anything but protect himself. When training for the street the first thing I do when we hit the ground is use my elbows and knees so it will become second nature. a guy who is not comfortable on the ground will be too bewildered to do anything but cover up. Heck, even if you are comfy on the ground once someone starts throwing an elbow or knee at you you have no choice but to defend. If you want to use grappling in the street you can't go in trying to fight like Royce Gracie, you have to go in and fight like Mark Coleman or Vitor Belfort. Because the last thing you want to try to do is wear your opponent out by lying on him, chances are you will get stomped, and if the guy has a knife like you mentioned, he will have no problem taking it out and shanking you. So bottom line, take the guy out as fast as possible and get up.
08-06-2000, 04:12 AM
I'll buy that aurgument. For years the first thing I did on the ground was ***** slap my opponents head into the concrete. Took the urge to 'rassle' right out of them.
Hey Vitor, any relation to Vitor?
LOL, no relation, except in the fact I can fight better than him.....NOT!
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