Chum Kil Video Clips from Wong Shun Leung Lineage?

[pseudoswitch]

Hi,

Does anyone know of any video clips out there of the Chum Kil form from the Wong Shun Leung lineage?

Cheers,

[Phil Redmond]

The Science of Infighting has him doing some Chum Kiu. I don't remember if he does the whole form or not.

[pseudoswitch]

Thanks for the reply Phil. I have that tape, it has a short clip of him doing the Chum Kil at the end of the tape, but it's only a few seconds long. There's also some short footage of the dummy form and the knives if i remember correctly, haven't watched it for a while.

I wonder where that footage is??? I mean, the footage for the second video that was never released.

[Ernie]

i have wong doing all the forms and giving a seminar on them but i can't give the video out but if you have a question on something i could research it for you

[Phil Redmond]

Thanks Ernie. Just tease us....

[Andrew Williams]

Wong Sifu seems not to have minded being filmed. I am lucky enough to have four or five video's of Wong teaching and presenting seminars. These came to me from the very kind and very generous Sifu’s David Peterson and Rolf Clausnitzer.

Interestingly there appears to be slight differences in some of the movements. Rolf has explained this to me, saying Wong Sifu was constantly striving to improve his performance and understanding of VT. And that he did make changes as he saw fit. Though I in no-way see myself in WSL’s league I do uphold the idea that we need to constantly dissect, test and if possible prove wrong those things passed on to us. If you show me something I will do my utmost to test its validity and would expect the same.

On first viewing WSL’s forms lack the aesthetic quality that may appeal to some and I do not like all that WSL does but not for the above reason.

Andrew Williams.

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Andrew
>>. . . I do uphold the idea that we need to constantly dissect, test and if possible prove wrong those things passed on to us. If you show me something I will do my utmost to test its validity and would expect the same. . . .<<

I wish more WC people thought that way. An art that doesn't grow will die out.

>>. . . On first viewing WSL’s forms lack the aesthetic quality that may appeal to some and I do not like all that WSL does but not for the above reason. . . .<<

I think his forms are a little different because he was a fighter and aesthetics might not have been his prime objective.

[Ernie]

phil
I think his forms are a little different because he was a fighter and aesthetics might not have been his prime objective.


i think you might be tight from my training at gary's and exposure to others , the goal is purly function under pressure ,the forms are like a table of contents that we fill with our experiences ,
but the fighting application and refinment in fighting is constantly stressed ,
i often hear we will all look a little different but we must be able to apply what we know .

i have to see any exact form's from the people i have been exposed to but i do see similar intent in application .

happy turkey day people

[old jong]

IMO, esthetics are very far away from Wing Chun.Nobody will be drawn to Wing Chun because of it's "pretty forms" The real beauty of it's forms is in their meaning and development founction.

I also don't like to compare forms to some kind of catalog of moves. It would have been simpler to just write a list of them in the beginning if the forms where only some kind of reference manual.

[Sekabin]

While I agree with testing and dissecting in order to understand, my worry is that people change things before they understand them properly. The things that live the longest tend to grow slower don't they? :eek:

[old jong]

Originally posted by Sekabin
my worry is that people change things before they understand them properly.

We see a lot of that around here! :eek:

[yuanfen]

Re; changes--- good point by Old Jong- the closed window character:
We see a lot of that around here!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
An important distinction IMO that is easily ignored---
changing or adapting an application can be a good idea if dome well... but involves understanding the underlying wing chun
principles in the first place.
Changing a major principle- often and usually without understanding it
is a different matter. Could easily result in being wing chun in name only.

[Phil Redmond]

Joy, you are right. I have one question though.
Do any of us know all there is to know about WC? Seems to me that most of us think we have the "real deal". Who really knows? None of us were there during the develpment of WC. Most of us depend on what filtered down to us.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Joy, you are right. I have one question though.
Do any of us know all there is to know about WC? Seems to me that most of us think we have the "real deal". Who really knows? None of us were there during the develpment of WC. Most of us depend on what filtered down to us.
i have decided that i know more than the ancestors who taught writing so now i write without punctuation or capitalization isn't this more efficient and faster too obviously i am on to a good idea why don't you all do it my way we have nothing to lose

[yuanfen]

Phil- None of us know enough about Wing Chun- that is true.
Ip Man took more to his grave like many great masters than any single one of his students. That is why its good to exchange info across lineages in order to infuse something that may be missing
in a line.

Regarding such infusion- let me use an analogy from the animal world- in this case canine. Complete inbreeding results in the deterioration of the line. Random breeding can result in a lot of
sick street dogs. But in a specific narrow road in an amorphous middle the really superb breedrers- know how to preserve the line and yet infuse element of another good line- if they know what they are doing. I am not talking about the kind of cross breeding that resulted in the doberman.... but let us say- to get away from my own(Tigara Malamute or Samoyeds) dogs- Swiss or Alsatian or real German shepherds frpm top lines. Randomness and careless in breeding both have resulted in extensive hyp dysplasia in the US. One has to know what they are doing in order to bring infusion.

However, wing chun is not just what one's teacher taught- there is a subject matter IMO- the teacher can point but one can try to understand the logic of the subject.. Occasionallya superb student improves on the master... that IMO was the case of Ip Man and his teachers. And it could happen again.Good teachers aim for a few of their students to even surpass them.

But it is understanding the principles well that results in the continuation of a good art and even its improvement. Xeroxes of xeroxes dont come out very well. And faddish mixtures dont last long either.
On the run- sorry for typos. I am missing Grendel's spil check.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Andrew Williams
Wong Sifu seems not to have minded being filmed. I am lucky enough to have four or five video's of Wong teaching and presenting seminars. These came to me from the very kind and very generous Sifu’s David Peterson and Rolf Clausnitzer.

Interestingly there appears to be slight differences in some of the movements. Rolf has explained this to me, saying Wong Sifu was constantly striving to improve his performance and understanding of VT. And that he did make changes as he saw fit. Though I in no-way see myself in WSL’s league I do uphold the idea that we need to constantly dissect, test and if possible prove wrong those things passed on to us. If you show me something I will do my utmost to test its validity and would expect the same.

On first viewing WSL’s forms lack the aesthetic quality that may appeal to some and I do not like all that WSL does but not for the above reason.

Andrew Williams.
Hi Andrew,

Nice to see you here.

On the subject of adapting Wing Chun, while I usually come out against any radical changes, there are idiosyncratic changes introduced by every serious practitioner. In the case of Sifu Wong Shun Leung, it is said his Wing Chun interpretation was informed by his earlier Western boxing knowledge. This is common to every one of us who has learned a martial art before coming to Wing Chun. From this perspective, Wing Chun almost always gives its students an objective high ground from which to observe their former martial arts experience. For me, that means if I were to return to boxing or karate, I would apply Wing Chun principles to the extent that I understand them, modifying those arts to fit the new perspective, and so it seems, others apply what they have learned in other areas to their Wing Chun, which makes for a healthy "infusion" (hats off to Yuanfen) of arts into their personal style. This is natural and unforced.

What I find repugnant in the wholesale blending of Wing Chun with other MA styles is the amount of dilution in sudden amounts. I really think, with possibly some exceptions, that some just don't want to give up what they have earned with much hard effort in those other arts, rather than stemming from a desire to really improve the art they learn and teach. To be fair, this might be overly harsh, since most teachers sincerely want to give everything they can to their students.

On another note, when I look at Choe Family Kung Fu history, I am intrigued by how they began with Choy Li Fut, which they retained in whole, and then also learned Wing Chun of a high order. The key though, only advanced students learn the Wing Chun, and the CLF in the advanced student is a deception designed to disguise what's really happening, that dissolves once contact is made into Wing Chun. Still, for those who have grasped their system, they have the advantage of two styles upon which to fall back upon. In certain circumstances, one has to wonder if another style wouldn't fit the moment better.

There are innumerable advantages in understanding, and even practicing other MA while retaining a Wing Chun core, but for most of us, time alone will not let us master Wing Chun by itself, let alone diverging styles. So in the end, blending and combining arts must be a personal choice made to be a sufficient jack-of-all-trades, but, I fear, not excellent in the one.

Regards,

[saifa5k]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Joy, you are right. I have one question though.
Do any of us know all there is to know about WC? Seems to me that most of us think we have the "real deal". Who really knows? None of us were there during the develpment of WC. Most of us depend on what filtered down to us.

Hey Phil,
Just my two cents but I firmly believe the inventors or designers, whatever you want to call them, of the wing chun forms had something definate in mind when they were constructed. I think the goal should be to try and figure out what their intentions were instead of trying to improve on them. From my little exposure to the art I have seen drastically different explanations for the same moves. Explanations ranging from energy flow to specific strikes for the same movement.
Dave c

[saifa5k]

Originally posted by John Weiland

So in the end, blending and combining arts must be a personal choice made to be a sufficient jack-of-all-trades, but, I fear, not excellent in the one.

Regards,


Hey John,
Biggest problem I see is that under under stress you better know how to react instinctively and without the confusion of which particular style to use. I firmly believe that the master of one art, which I am certainly not, will defeat the jack of all trades every time.
Dave c

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by saifa5k

Hey John,
Biggest problem I see is that under under stress you better know how to react instinctively and without the confusion of which particular style to use. I firmly believe that the master of one art, which I am certainly not, will defeat the jack of all trades every time.
Dave c
Hi Dave,

That's where I'm putting my hope. I haven't begun to find the end of the Wing Chun path yet, but I'm certain that I'm on the right journey. When I've learned it all, they can gold-plate my carcass and put me up as a statue in the Wing Chun Mauseleum. Only, don't hold me to that last part. :p

Regards,

[saifa5k]

Originally posted by John Weiland

Hi Dave,

That's where I'm putting my hope. I haven't begun to find the end of the Wing Chun path yet, but I'm certain that I'm on the right journey. When I've learned it all, they can gold-plate my carcass and put me up as a statue in the Wing Chun Mauseleum. Only, don't hold me to that last part. :p

Regards,

LOL! Now thats a statue I would definately enjoy seeing! Hey you wouldnt know of any Ken Chueng or Ben Der people over here in Tulsa,OKie land would you? Just moved here and for a metro pop. of over 1/2 mil. doesnt seem to be much in the way of wing chun, at least in the city area.
Dave c

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by saifa5k
LOL! Now thats a statue I would definately enjoy seeing! Hey you wouldnt know of any Ken Chueng or Ben Der people over here in Tulsa,OKie land would you? Just moved here and for a metro pop. of over 1/2 mil. doesnt seem to be much in the way of wing chun, at least in the city area.
Dave c
Hi Dave,

The closest that I know of is in Houston, which obviously isn't close to you. If I recall, you're from Karl Godwin's line (from Ben Der > Ken Werner). He's still teaching I believe, along with his long-time student Bill Graves. They have several schools of their own and have conserved the knowledge well.

The only contact for that Ben Der lineage that I have, unfortunately, is in Florida, but you might ask them. The site's contact info is
http://www.centerlineacademy.com/cama/index.cfm?page=2
and the teacher's name is Armando Sainz.

Maybe some other Ken Chung lineage student will chime in with the info. Dave Williams (PlanetWC) perhaps.

Regards,

[Andrew Williams]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phil Redmond
[B]Hi Andrew
>>. . . I do uphold the idea that we need to constantly dissect, test and if possible prove wrong those things passed on to us. If you show me something I will do my utmost to test its validity and would expect the same. . . .aw<<

I wish more WC people thought that way. An art that doesn't grow will die out. P.R.

---I understand what you are saying in your above reply. I wasn't really thinking about VT growing, more its practitioners maturing. aw

>>. . . On first viewing WSL’s forms lack the aesthetic quality that may appeal to some and I do not like all that WSL does but not for the above reason. . . .aw<<

I think his forms are a little different because he was a fighter and aesthetics might not have been his prime objective. P.R.

---from all I have read and been told he did fight, I have heard that he would actually try out new movements in these confrontations to test their usefulness. And yes I agree, his fighting experiences would contribute to his interpretations and instuction. He was also a scientist (my own word), he would try to disprove not prove a theory. And though this can make you unpopular or appear negitive, what you potentially end up with is something which has some validity.

Cheers Phil,
regards Andrew W.

[russellsherry]

hi guys, what i liked about wong shun leung'S way of wing chun as a disabled person is that i found i could use i looked at evey style possiable every school and decideid that wingchun was the olny one i can use, what my favorites saying from sifu wong is we become wing chun masters not its slave and also the fact we can adapt its use for ourselfs, peace russellsherry

[Andrew Williams]

Hi John

On the subject of adapting Wing Chun, while I usually come out against any radical changes jw
---what if those radical changes improved WC? aw

In the case of Sifu Wong Shun Leung, it is said his Wing Chun interpretation was informed by his earlier Western boxing knowledge. jw
--- I do not know if this is a truth or myth. From what Rolf has told me he (Wong) liked and respected western boxing and the boxers who trained hard to condition themselves for the ring, thinking it a very dangerous martial art. Perhaps he was able to foresee what a profound effect boxing would have on many eastern martial arts, perhaps he saw parallels in footwork and short power. I’m not sure. Unless I was there when the words were uttered I can never really know the truth of what was said or the spirit in which it was written. I do tend to keep in mind however, regardless of how well meaning someone may be (or what vested interest they may have) that editing occurs, verbal or written. aw


This is common to every one of us who has learned a martial art before coming to Wing Chun.jw
--- you are right, I studied a couple of MA’s before WC, the understanding of which has influenced what I practice. aw

From this perspective, Wing Chun almost always gives its students an objective high ground from which to observe their former martial arts experience. For me, that means if I were to return to boxing or karate, I would apply Wing Chun principles to the extent that I understand them, modifying those arts to fit the new perspective, and so it seems, others apply what they have learned in other areas to their Wing Chun, which makes for a healthy "infusion" (hats off to Yuanfen) of arts into their personal style. This is natural and unforced. jw
---yes, infusion is nice, Joy is a clever man. I use my understanding of physiology, kinesiology and anatomy to further my understanding of WC. aw

What I find repugnant in the wholesale blending of Wing Chun with other MA styles is the amount of dilution in sudden amounts. Jw
---LOL, I have seen said blending and have no problem with it, to each their own. So far, those I have seen and spoken to have needed to do it given their understanding of what they have. I do not do it, I am yet to find something that would work, were I too I would. I do practice some grappling, boxing and such. I like to have an informed opinion, and I like to know as much as is reasonably possible about MA that I may be up against, and I like to learn new things.aw

I really think, with possibly some exceptions, that some just don't want to give up what they have earned with much hard effort in those other arts, rather than stemming from a desire to really improve the art they learn and teach. jw
--- you may be right (in some cases), I do know a school where this happens. I also know that some augment their lack of depth by filling gaps, or dangle carrots for their students.aw

To be fair, this might be overly harsh, since most teachers sincerely want to give everything they can to their students.jw
---yes this also happens. aw


There are innumerable advantages in understanding, and even practicing other MA while retaining a Wing Chun core, but for most of us, time alone will not let us master Wing Chun by itself, let alone diverging styles. So in the end, blending and combining arts must be a personal choice made to be a sufficient jack-of-all-trades, but, I fear, not excellent in the one. Jw.
---yes time is an issue, but I think one can attain excellence in one, whilst learning enough of another to appreciate, understand and develop it with some degree of competency (given the time):) . aw

Cheers John.
Andrew W.

[Nick Forrer]

Hello

I have wong on tape doing a seminar on chum kiu and one noticeable difference from other original ip man students i have seen perform it is the height of his lan sau in the first section when you turn and bong and then turn and lan. While the other ip man students i have seen do it around nipple height and level wongs lan sau is lower and tilted at around a 45 degree incline, the rationale being i beleive that this not only helps to divert force away from your centre of gravity but also draws your opponent towards you and down thereby unbalancing him in a similar fashion to jut sau.

This of course is different from the lan sau he demos at the end of science of in fighting (which relates i think to his 'deliberate mistakes' although i may be wrong on this point- he may have made the alteration at a later stage)

Also as i have mentioned elsewhere his weight distribution when turning is 50/50 not 70/30 or 100/0.

There are some other differences as well but i haven't the time or the inclination to list them

Regards Nick

[Ultimatewingchun]

I agree completely with Phil Redmond's statement that WSL's forms were a little different because he was a fighter and aesthetics might not have been his prime objective...

I also have this video and it is a good one. It doesn't matter how good your forms are, or how good your chi sao is, etc.

What matters is who wins the fight - so TRANSLATING the moves that come out of the forms, or chi sao, or the Wooden Dummy, and so on - into real fighting conditions and scenarios successfully is THE ALL IMPORTANT ASPECT AND PURPOSE of doing the forms, etc. in the first place.

Does this require spending a significant amount of time learning the forms, etc. - understanding them - practicing them...especially during the beginning years of one's training ?

Of course. But the work doesn't stop there - it only BEGINS there.

The translation is THE most important aspect to the whole experience, IMO.

And constantly testing the moves and concepts and perhaps changing things a bit here and there as time goes is only natural and progressive....it's called evolution.

That said - Sekabin's statement that the things that live the longest tend to grow slower is absolutely true.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.