chi sau or a wrestling match ?

[Ernie]

just thought I would pick a few more experienced minds out there '' joy , old jong ?''
I've been rolling with a lot of different people lately and I keep seeing this silly trend , beyond the dudes that just want to chain punch all day '' that will for ever be a part of wing chun''
lately it's like either you got guys with good feel and understand the energy and purpose of chi sau , or you got the freaks that grab and tear and pull and climb up on you like there lives depended on the hit ,

now I have tried , first to be polite and explain we are not fighting , to relax and feel what's going on , I even keep things slow and non threatening , leave gaps to help there responses and reflexes .

but they still go nuts

I let them grab my arms and tug and pull me close , I still relax and try and talk them down ,
I have become frustrated and shell shocked them , or even bit them , head butted them when they continue to try to wreck havoc on me, telling them that if the wish to step out of the shell of chi sau and turn training into fighting anything fly's

they seem to respond to pain but I hate being that way

just curious what some of you tell your students when things leave the scope of chi sau

[anerlich]

Ernie, in my experience much the same thing happens with wrestling matches, at least as far as rolling in BJJ goes.

Most guys are happy just to roll around with a reasonable amount of energy, to experiment and explore, to treat a tap they get at a bonus but fell just (well OK, almost) as good for the other guy when he taps them.

A minority go as if their life depended on submitting the other guy, or if he got anything on them they'd be sent to the electric chair. They start spazzing, punching, using elbows, etc.

Ask them to play nice once, maybe twice. Let 'em get a few in just to feed their ego so that they'll hopefully relax and treat it as learning rather than a clash of the titans.

If they persist, maybe sting them once or twice and ask them to tone it down. If they persist, just refuse to roll or chi sao with them any more. They are the ones who will ultimately suffer because on one will work out with them.

[Ernie]

[[If they persist, just refuse to roll or chi sao with them any more.]]

with outsiders i can do this but sometimes i'm instructed to teach people , and this is the tough part , if it were the ground game i would just relax and let them wear themselves out or give them a little choke and let them go limp ,
but in chi sau '' though i have and will choke some one out '' it's not really alowed ,
and here is the funny thing often i am asked to test were a kung fu brothers skill is at ,
the catch is i can't hit them i can only control , push pull , and take position ,
this is were i really see all the compettive nature and '' let me take it to si hing '' intent

thanks for the reply , and the advice it good i wish i could just walk away from the over commited types , but i'm also a sucker when it comes to help people learn i consider the relationship between work out partners a very sacred thing , in the sense we are allowing another person to practice things that could inflict major damage , the level of trust and respect and genuine concern for the other persons well being and advancement is top prority for me ,
that's why i don't get the whole competitive thing

[yuanfen]

Ernie asks-
just curious what some of you tell your students when things leave the scope of chi sau
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ernie- chi sao involves learning one's control. If a student
tries to make chi sao into fighting- they go back to square one and relearn the fundamentals. People who make chi sao into fighting usually dont have a clue on what chi sao is about and need guidance.

[Phil Redmond]

What Yuanfen said.

You also will have the type that touches you during chi sau and begin to think they are all that. That same guy might tag you in chi sau but lose to you for real. Too many WC people think chi sau and fighting are the same thing.

[Ernie]

thanks joy
and i agree , people become emotional , i don't get it . it is just training . but perhaps that is what i will do if they act up send them back to the basics :)

[Ernie]

phil
good looking out
i think there is a difference between those that have fought in the street or in the ring to those that , think chi sau is a competition,
there are so many things you can get away with in chi sau that won't fly in a real fight .

i thank all of you for your input ,
since i'm getting put more into the teaching mode these days , i need to pick up things from all of you that have been at it a lot longer then me:)

[old jong]

You got good answers there.I could maybe ad that a student should know that Chi Sau is a training device and a way to develop (Or demonstrate) certain Wing Chun skills.The one who want to hit at all costs are always very easy to hit anyway.;)

[kj]

We have a Wing Chun proverb: "Don't be greedy; don't be afraid." If the student doesn't understand this, they don't yet understand a most fundamental premise of Wing Chun, IMHO.

For those who cannot control themselves in a learning environment, I agree 100% with those here who call for going "back to basics" until they learn how. For those who will not control themselves, I recommend showing them that the door works both ways; I'm an advocate of responsible choices over entitlements.

An alternative, as Old Jong suggests, is to let the learner experience the error of their ways. Applied in moderation, this approach can sometimes make the point succinctly. Unfortunately, it can also be quite risky for both you and/or the learner (physically, ethically, and/or legally), especially if severe or repeated lessons are required. There is also a chance unintended lessons will be reinforced.

There is always some dilemma, and perennial trade-offs to make. IMHO, it's good to remember that your time and well-being are as valuable as theirs.

My $.02.
- Kathy Jo

[Ultimatewingchun]

It seems to me that the real issue here has nothing to do with chi sao, or wrestling, or biting, or anything else that is physical - but rather, it is a psychological/emotional...perhaps even an ethical issue that can apply in any martial art school -

and in my experience the best way to deal with it is to make it clear, as an instructor or an assistant instuctor, that when we are "drilling", as in chi sao, for example, don't do crazy, highly competitive, take no prisoners things - or there will be consequences...

such as putting a big physical hurt on the "aggressor" and/or expulsion from the school.

When we spar then the story is different - you can be more aggressive (but still within certain boudaries and limits). These are the messages that every student in the school needs to receive right from day one - that a certain etiquette is expected and nothing less will be tolerated.

[hunt1]

Ernie if this happens a little it may be the individuals. If it happens alot it may be you. By your posts it sounds like you have become the measure by which other students are judged. Others may be afraid, intimidated or psyched to chi sau with you. They may feel they have to hit you to prove they are any good etc.
2 things you can do. Slow them down and make it clear you are not going to hit them or hurt them. You are just trying to help them improve so they can be better than you. Your students should in theory always become better than you because they add their own abilities to what you have taught them. So taking efforts to calm them is first. Second just use energy to prevent them from rolling. What i call giving them the freeze. You can also force their energy to their shoulders. This will get the message through for most
I agree with KJ . Those that do not stop need to be shown the door. Some people are just wired in such a way that they will never get it.
Never hurt them unless you intend to kick them out of the school and have a good lawyerin the background. If they hit you and you retaliate by hitting them harder nothing will be gained. You will just reinforce their fears. If they hit you respond by taking total control of them without hitting them. This sends the message you can have them whenever you want them yet it shows your intent is not to hurt them.
Also dont forget even while teaching you are learning too. If you are getting hit then there is something you could learn.

[Ernie]

so smack the bad dog in the nose with the news paper:D
here in lies two problems for me , one I am there to help not hurt them I take this real personal , I understand the psychology of a fight , never let the other persons emotions dictate how you fight so even when they go nuts '' breathing hard ,eyes bulging , veins on the neck popping out '' I just relax and surf the wave .
I hope by example they get it .
some do some don't , this problem seems to come from 2 types of individuals , the ex athlete , and the martial artist that was the golden boy in another style . have you guys noticed this at all?

problem number 2 I am not allowed to hit back at all , this is a drill were we both get something , I just work my defense and position , I feed them enough energy and hands to draw out there shapes and structure , I can use destabilizing concepts like po pai . lop's , sealing position '' the freeze as hunt said ''
now were have 2 vertical mattresses about 15 feet apart like to padded walls , so we are in the center of this padded cell as I affectionately call it , I can project them or toss them , or drive them and lock them up .
but mind you I don't normally turn it up I keep things were they have plenty of time to make adjustments and I talk them through the change .

since part of my training is to observe a persons strength and weakness , and character , I have really been watching how people act , and when they loose it .

I really appreciate all of you for sharing and taking your time , it's good to see constructive energy coming from this board again

[Ernie]

hunt
[[[Ernie if this happens a little it may be the individuals. If it happens alot it may be you. By your posts it sounds like you have become the measure by which other students are judged. Others may be afraid, intimidated or psyched to chi sau with you. They may feel they have to hit you to prove they are any good etc.]]]

it happens with they same few , but i think with one or two you might be dead on , it is usually when the teacher is watching they go all silly ,
i have seen some of these guys get in to real fights during chi sau with others , they don't take it that far with me , but even when they got into fights i pulled them out side and explained to them that every thing is a learning experience , and pointed out how there wing chun went right out the window when they gat all emotional ,
perhaps they see me as a steping stone , it's sad since i have never seen chi sau as a win or lose thing , it's training not fighting .
oh well enough with my little issues at least they keep me on my toes
:D

[PaulH]

Ernie,

You just have to learn control better. When I saw Gary chisau with other Big Macs, it is like him playing with babies. They can't hurt him! When grasshoppers realize that they can't hurt you, they will fold their wings and start to learn other more effective ways to claw you in the chisau game. It's the calm before the storm type! In the meantime, you just have to eat a few punches until you can totally control their position and timing. This comes mainly from understanding and experience. BTW, ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ME? HA! HA!

Regards,

PH

[Ernie]

no paul ,
you have honest pressure but never bad intent :)
i was inspired by specific people but i wanted to look at this type of personality in general and gain widom from others that have been at the game longer ,
you know me paul , i never lose it , it's all fun and games to me , so can't understand the mindset some people come with , so i'm just seeing if i can pick up a few tools and idea's in dealing with this situation

[PaulH]

Hey Ernie,

The mindset...That reminds me of a story of a new Legionaire soldier that I read in a newspaper sometimes ago. When being asked of why he wanted to join this colorful army, he said that he enjoys fighting and killing. Some are born psychos. You just have to deal with them in the best human way you can - a sound beating to clear up their clouded animal heads! This way he realized that not all humans are preys for the killing! Ha! Ha!

Regards,

PH

[ntc]

My two cents..... when we trained back in the old days in Macao, we were not taught/allowed Chi Sau until we reached a certain skill set and level. If we did not show that we had the right mentality, skills, control, attitude, we would not even be allowed to learn the basic Chi Sau drills, let alone the lut sau exercises. This way, only those students who qualify to be trained in Chi Sau would be able to do so, and you will minimize the possibilities of having those "hot-heads" doing Chi Sau before they are 'ready'.

[Tom Kagan]

What you are dealing with is a group of people who are more interested in the 'image' aspect of training rather than the 'performance' aspect of training. They want to show you (or, more likely others in the class) how good they are, or that you, your teacher, and/or your training methods are really no good.

Don't bother talking to them too much about it. They won't listen. Trying to discuss something (whether via voice or via 'the hands') with a dummy means there are now two dummies.

So, what can you do? Not much. Just suck it up. Try to treat those who behave as you describe more like furniture. The best you can expect is to use them as a bit of a test of your own patience and current ability to reasonably deal with the unreasonable.

Hopefully, those who behave badly will eventually either get the message and mellow out or leave on their own. Unfortunately, you might be surprised at how many may stick around for years and even manage to gather a modicum of decent skill. Still, these are the people who will cause endless grief for your teacher and for other students.

If you are interested in the 'performance' aspect of training, try to spend more time with people interested in improving themselves and (more importantly) sharing with and helping you. That is the group that will progress consistently.

So, which group do you wish to be in? ;)

[Ernie]

So, which group do you wish to be in

well i have different groups for different reason's
i do like dealing with the emotional bunch , because they give raw human energy , much closer to street energy , people with something to prove .
but as you said trying to teach something to this group is a lot harder thenjust working off them for my own selfish goal:)

then there is the like mind group , the people who have something to offer in skill , or conversation , the people you really train with and meet through the week at for lunch and it turns into a training session in the parking lot , these are your brothers
this group for me comes from all different wing chun families

then there is the out of wing chun group that i am allowed to fully express myself with and train and experiment and mesure my growth .

so every one has something to offer if looked at through the right filter

training has always been easy and fun since i am very giving and a little obsessed ;)
but teaching is a whole different world , luckily i'm not a teacher , only being groomed in that direction .

thank you for sharing your experience and wisdom

[kj]

I respect and enjoy your constructive and open attitude, Ernie. There is so much to learn from every experience, and from each other. I anticipate that you will greatly enjoy the journeys ahead, and reap many rewards as you assume increasing responsibility for helping others.

Regards,
- kj

[yuanfen]

Ernie- per NTC's comment. If a student doesnt first develop wing chun motions properly-it's unwise IMO to have them flounder in chi sao.

Paul H... One does not have to be a psycho to want to join the legion. Adolescent romance and a sense of adventure can create the chemistry.

Many moons ago- after reading Beau Geste (I have a copy of the movie around here somewhere--Gary Cooper, Ray Miland, Preston Foster, Brian Donlevy(as the sadistic fort commander, Broderick Crawford(as a yank) and co), I stowed away on a French ship in Calcutta harbor determined to join the legion. Unfortunately they found me and threw me out before the ship set sail..I never forgave the French for the rejection...though I can't root for Master Crowe aginst them in the lastest Hollywood fantasy..
Instead I set sail for France, England and then the New World a few years later--hopping on freight trains and hitchiking...knew the old route 66 quite well and more-youthful dreams and risk taking can have power!!

[PaulH]

Joy,

That was a very interesting story of yours! Well I got packed like sardines in a can on a not sea-worthy boat in the quest for life, freedom, and happiness of the free lands. Running scared under hails of bullets. Survived through a sea storm and hostile chase of a Russian ship. Endured dehydration and starvation for a few days before our little boat that can finally made it to Singapore and then good old USA. Before that, well a little adventure into the heart of darkness in Cambodia and being clamped down in a prison camp as a political prisoner as a minor! The funny thing is as a boy like you said, the experience seemed very clamorous and exciting in spite of the horrors that I saw along those adventurous times!

Regards,

PH

[yuanfen]

Paul H... you will never forget it-living at the edge has its moments.
The fiddler on the roof- for instance.

[yylee]

I think it is a good ChiSau experience for both the bigMac and the cool dude. The bigMac learns to stay calm and focus on the basics, at the same time the cool dude can perfect his/her defence, and learn how to control without hurting the other.

I say don't underestimate any newbies, they are full of surprises. Today they lose badly, two week later they might toss you around like yoyo's.

[hunt1]

How do you chi sao with a hamburger?

[yuanfen]

Did you want fries with that?

[yylee]

Originally posted by hunt1
How do you chi sao with a hamburger?

you open your mouth and .......

probably some ketchup with fries too Joy :D

[foolinthedeck]

my 2 british pence:

no one has mentioned who u r really 'fighting' against in chi sao - yourself. For my part, when i hit the other my ego says "yeah your good", when i get hit it is "how dare they".

chi sao is as much about you as him, my advice is use these people as a means of learning humility. Its hard because you know that they arent learning and you want to show them the light, but actually they have much more to show you. When we get to the point that we can do chi sao with a competitive, aggressive type who hits you with no control and hardly flinch (internally) then thats good you leant that.

I got my first busted lip this saturday from chi sau with a guy who wouldnt hold back, when i hit him clean, palm to face he would continue, fight back. This is usually a good repsonce in chi sau, but only in terms of cheapshots. But lets face it, i learnt a lot from this encounter, i learnt to keep my defence up and not assume that hitting the other with a clean shot means he/she will accept it, and also to use combos and really close him/her down, not rely on one shot. I learnt early on, from Darryl Moy and Daniel Poon in particular that if they hit you clean and you ignore it, you are going to get really WHACKED in a seconds time. But i dont need to be the guy who teaches this lesson! I have to learn my own lessons first.

I guess i'm implying that to try and teach the other guy anything is arrogant of you, but by saying this i'm guilty of it myself. they say in zen that nothing can be truly taught. I beleive this is that time: relax, its an opportunity for us to learn, if they dont its not your fault. even if sifu asks you to 'Teach' the others, accept it, you cant although they may learn for themselves.

[Tom Kagan]

foolinthedeck is largely correct, with a few relative minor exceptions.


i do like dealing with the emotional bunch , because they give raw human energy , much closer to street energy , people with something to prove .
but as you said trying to teach something to this group is a lot harder thenjust working off them for my own selfish goal:)



I fear you may have misunderstood me. 'image' vs. 'performance' does not have to do with the amount or type of energy being produced by a person, nor does it have to do with your 'in-house' vs. 'outside' training partners.

Neither does performance based training mean no one ends up leaking blood or sporting knuckle-shaped bruises from time to time during class. 'Image' vs 'performance' has to do with why that would happen.

What you are referring to now is what my sifu used to call 'being fair' (Mr. Matt Thorton calls it 'aliveness'): If you don't really try to make it difficult (but not impossible) for your training partners (aside from the relative few moments it takes to learn the movement), then you are not being fair to them - you are 'cheating' them out of their training by blowing smoke up their @ss if it's too easy and trying to discourage them if it's impossible. Also, if either of you go beyond whatever implicit or explicit agreements a given exercise has, that is also 'cheating.' These ways of 'being unfair' are purely 'image' based ways to train.

In your original reference, it actually has to do with you, not the person(s) in front of you. If you have to do what you describe and headbutt or bite a truly unreasonable person in training to subdue them because that is where your skills are at in order to deal with the scenario, that is rightly considered the 'performance' aspect of training (though, in my opinion, still suspect - do you really have to do that to your SiHingDai?). However, sooner or later, you won't have to do that if you are training right, which generally means you stay away from people you would need to headbutt or bite until you wish to try another 'test' of your skill level.

But, if your headbutting and biting people to teach them a lesson of some misguided notion of 'respect' or self-esteem and/or because your might worry about how it would look to 'lose' in front of others (and posturing about 'taking it outside') that's the 'image' aspect of training.

After all, at any given moment, anyone can beat anyone else. All they would have to do is ambush their opponent, preferably with modern weapons, or at least with something like my personal favorite, a folding shovel (entrenching tool).

[Ernie]

tom
[[If you have to do what you describe and headbutt or bite a truly unreasonable person in training to subdue them because that is where your skills are at in order to deal with the scenario]]

fisrt of all i totally understand were your coming from , trust me when i say you would have to know me and my playful nature , i also have alot if training in the filipino system were head butt , knee , elbow , and biting are part of there version of chi sau ''hu bud '' so i have full control of these actions i can rip it and stop it on a dime '' no injury yet :) ''
but i do like to shell shock some one if there being totally unreasonable , this means , i have allready talked to them , slowed things to a snails pace , expalianed and expressed the correct energy , left myself wide open so they can work the idea ,
yet some for some reason get all tight and emotional and still try ands grab you , squeeze , crawl over you or wrestle you , it's like there eyes roll back in there heads and the start breathing heavy and changing color , at this point i don't want to get in a punching match , i'll just zap them , pull there plug by hitting them with something completely in left field , snaps them back into reality .
now understand these are very rare situations but i try and learn from everything
and i really appriciate you taking the time to respond , your words do not fall on death ears , all of you have shared experience with me and i don't take that gift lightly , so thank you

[taltos]

I've had similar experiences. I don't know if it's because I'm a smaller built guy (135 pounds) who's also a senior student, but every once in a while someone gets it in their head that if they get in on Sihing, they must be "da bomb."

Everyone here has given good advice on how to handle it. I usually try (in this general order):

1. Slow down

2. Re-explain the excercise and explain that it is not a competition, it is a sentitivity training tool. Explain that this is not how you would fight, so fighting in this context and in this exercise makes no sense. I do this one twice, just to make sure they were listening.

3. Failing all that, I'll just shut them down. I don't mean hit them or trap them, just stop giving them holes to sense and probe and keep clearing the space in front of me so they can't get a hold of me if they've decided to do so anyway. I've discovered that not hitting your partner while at the same time keeping them from hitting you usually humbles most of them. After a while, I'll explain what I'm doing, and I'll remind them that just having the ability to keep someone from me is as important (or more) as being able to hit them. I explain that I can sense the holes and strikes that i COULD have, I am just choosing not to capitalize on them.

4. Failing all three, I'll remind them that if they go outside the confines of the excercise, they are potentially trying to harm me, and I'll need to defend myself accordingly, and that won't be good for anyone. If they persist, I don't hit hard or damaging, but I'll give little taps, and I'll lahp, trap, put my foot on their knee or instep or shin (just to let them know), or charge their center to keep them off balance. This lasts a second, then I'll disengage and ask if they want to spar or if they want to chi sau.

5. If all 4 fail, or if they just admit that they want to spar, we'll go put on the pads and spar. Sometimes that's what they want, and if they can learn from it, that's fine.

I know these may seem horrible, but it has only happened a very few times in the years I've been studying, and it has never gotten so bad that I lost my temper or had to take it up the line to my Sifu.

-Levi

[yuanfen]

ernie sez:
and i really appriciate you taking the time to respond , your words do not fall on death ears , all of you have shared experience with me and i don't take that gift lightly , so thank you
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Ernie are your ears ok?:-
I enjoyed the videos- the ones I could open with Quick Time.

[Ernie]

joy
Hi Ernie are your ears ok?:-

ha joy if i took the time to spell check and re read things , it just wouldn't be me :D

glad you liked the clips


levi
thanks for he input and the break down . we don't wear pads so if it gets to a '' sparring situation , the teacher will send every one out and just let us fight while he watches over , so very few people are willing to let it go there.

i have tried the shut down chi sau just make them freeze or miss or stumble around , but i have guys get so frurtrated they go for the double leg tackle during a drill , and had to work of the ground on cement , good for me since i have some ground game , but still bad for others to see , not a good example

but like with you this is very rare and usually the same one or to people but i'm a die hard to get people to learn so i don't give up on them

[KenWingJitsu]

Excellent post levi!

Ernie, this thread is perhaps my biggest pet peeve with wing chun. And unfortunately, (or fortunately for this thread at least) it goes beyond lineage. Because EVERYONE has done this. I've done it, you've done it, we've all done it....or had it done to us...thinking we're 'cool' because we can 'fight' out of chi-sao. It's one of the many illnesses of wing chun.

Chi-sao has nothing to do with fighting. It only has to do with teaching principles and structure (and several movements out of that structure that follow the principles); thats's it. The 'fighting' itself is separate and should be taught as such. So when i see anyone "show off" out of chi-sao, I roll my eyes and laugh, because that's about as relevant to fighting as swimming is to running.

My solution? i stopped training with non-like minded people :D Only train with those who know what chi-sao if for and who can separate it from 'sparring'. Either that, or bite them.....thanks Ernie, I think I'll use that next time. lol.

[Ernie]

kwj
Either that, or bite them.....thanks ernie, I think I'll use that next time. lol.

and to think i'm a vegitertian
i've shared this before but just in case http://www.geocities.com/hellasjeetkunedo/kinamutai.html


hey hope to see you in december

[kj]

Originally posted by Ernie
and to think i'm a vegitertian
i've shared this before but just in case http://www.geocities.com/hellasjeetkunedo/kinamutai.html


Despite seeming gruesome, from my POV, this is far more captivating than things like sport or ring fighting. Under appropriately demanding circumstances, pragmatism can supplant a lot of squeamishness.

I abandoned vegetarianism some years ago, so I might have a slight edge on you here, LOL. Still, this is the sort of thing I'll keep in reserve, rather than a routine form of partner practice. ;)

Regards,
- kj

[AndrewS]

Hey Ernie,

we've talked about this before, and I find it as much a nuisance as you do.

There are a few things to think about.

Is the guy just a spaz, an intractable nuisance, or malignant head case? The first can learn proper training etiquette; the second is paying the school's bills and will never learn anything, the last is a serious f'n problem.

In this situation, can you control without hurting them, and what is the risk of injury to you?

I've gotten hurt by malignant *ssholes who I was too nice to beat up. At this point in my life, if I think the person who's training with me is a serious injury risk for me, and can't be coaxed into training nice, I see these options
1). Walk away
2). Go dead. Go completely soft, absorb everything, eat some shots and give them no emotional target.
3). Invite them to a Vale Tudo match
4). 'Accidentally', inflict serious enough injury on them to put them out of training long-term.

This being said, if all that's at risk is a few bruises, and someone I'm supposed to be teaching is being an idiot, I usually just work on my game and let things happen. When the other person is ready to learn, they ask me questions, if not, then I just work on my game. The people who listen to me have invariably been able to beat up the ones who haven't tried to learn.

I think what I'm picking up is your frustration at the difficulty in *teaching* these sorts. I think I know you well enough to know that you don't look at training as a win/lose thing, and from the perspective of your own development this is just an exercise in learning how to control others. The problem doesn't sound like one of training interaction, but more puzzlement over this bizarre behavior in which one thing - a learning experience- is mistaken for another- a fight. To you and me, it's really simple- mistaking training for a fight (even training with heavy contact and few rules) is like mistaking an orange for a car- freakin' incomprehensible.

How can you get someone to realize the difference? IME, with great difficulty, but by working very progressively with clear increments in the degrees of freedom of an exercise, so they understand the build.

Part of what's puzzling you is the 'red rage' fight reaction, too, I think. The adrenalin dump accompanied by blind aggression, like a child's temper tantrum isn't how you react to adrenalin, and it seems illogical to you. I think we talked about this once and we have some similarities of reaction to real stresses. Marc MacYoung talks about this in one of his books- some folks get blinded by rage, get worked up have facial flushing, posture verbally, puff up their chests- do the usual ****ed-off dance. Others get pale in the face and quiet, and are usually figuring out how to do what they need to do. The adrenalin is there in both, but the latter type has 'calm under fire'. Both may experience the usual adrenalin effects on bowels, bladder, gut, and memory, but the reactions are different. I don't know exactly when I stopped being a child under stress (I still throw tantums at other times), but I do that cold blue thing when the bad stuff hits, and I always have a complex set of emotional responses to other people going into 'red' rage states which fundamentally *don't* make sense to me.

Later,

Andrew

P.S. Playa *rocked*, I've got a couple of pics with me in a Biu Tze pose in Tulum.

[russellsherry]

hi earnie yes i have had a few expereinces like that particiular one guy comes in mind who thinks he is better than he his last time , he came in he did , not realise how good my front hand was getting and his specs fell on to the ground for some reason
chi sua is just a part of the truth not the the truth it self peace russellsherry

[Ernie]

AndrewS


all i can say is you know me well:D

[AndrewS]

Hey Ernie,

great minds and all that. . .

;-)

Later,

Andrew