Hung Fa Yi and Shaolin...

[Savi]

(I actually began this post at HFY108, but wanted to share it here. Please keep in mind I am not posting to prove anything. Thanks.)

For the past few years Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen has been debated repeatedly on the internet. I would like to thank everyone for their interest in this system. There are many people who see similarities and differences as well from HFY to other Wing Chun lineages. Part of the company in these internet forums concedes they do not consider HFYWCK to be Wing Chun at all, despite the similarities they themselves point out. Others fall short of the understanding they seek from the VTM/HFY family, not knowing that their questions cannot be answered by a forum alone - regardless of how well a post may be constructed. One has to see it in action, feel it, experience and learn about it in order to understand the answers they look for. In other cases, some comments like “Prove it works!” and “Prove it’s older!” cannot be answered at all via the internet. Regardless, the mind may know, but the body understands.

Hung Fa Yi, otherwise referenced as “repackaged” and "relabeled", or noted as a compilation of “buzzwords” for the sake of uniqueness by a small few, still stands as a Wing Chun system without these commentators. Things that are misunderstood are often dismissed as fiction and are misrepresented as poor reflections against the intended. In my opinion, they are giving far too much credit to those they oppose. To further this segregation, they even make claims against those they accuse of making claims. This ignorance cannot be resolved, yet to the others who could care less about such negativity and immaturity; this post is directed towards them.

To understand the position given by the VTM that the origins of the Wing Chun system reside with the Southern Shaolin Temple, it is important to also understand what Shaolin is, not only through reading about it but by experiencing the nature of Shaolin Kung Fu. By doing so, it will be much easier to draw the correlations from a system perspective. The people here who cannot relate to the information put forth by the VTM should first have a clear understanding of Shaolin. What are its traits, its treasures, its philosophies? Those types of things must be understood before questioning the HFY system. The Southern Shaolin Temple is more than just a place; more than just a thing. Shaolin has a very deep history with China. China’s politics, its military, culture and philosophies are part Shaolin’s heart. Shaolin is an experience unto itself! One simply cannot point to a place and simply believe or say that is where they come from without understanding why. So we have to point back to experiencing what is Shaolin first, which is greater than any one person or system. It is after this fact when people begin to see the roots of Shaolin in Hung Fa Yi’s combat (self defense and offense), health (internal AND external), and philosophy (binds it all together!). There are also others who, even without this experience, see the truth of the Hung Fa Yi system and only appreciate it even further by studying its roots as well.

There are many practitioners of Hung Fa Yi who began their kung fu training in the various Shaolin arts, and can readily relate to Hung Fa Yi through its methods, concepts, theories, philosophy and even in its applications around the world (we have practitioners from South America to the USA to Europe – so far as I know). Furthermore, there are also many Buddhist practitioners who see no flaw in logic or philosophy regarding Hung Fa Yi as a unique branch of Chan Buddhism. Rather, they see HFY as a reflection of their own Buddha nature. Why? These people were only able to come to their conclusions by studying the system through the body and mind. Many of them, if not all, have conceded that the methods of HFY have pointed them to greater knowledge and deeper connections within themselves. These people serve but one example to the legitimacy and validity of HFY as a system, and support for the VTM’s presentation of its findings.

continued...

[Savi]

To give a very brief overview of what is Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun, it is a system of combat and spirituality designed to preserve the very essence of all that is Shaolin. Those particulars have been referenced above, so it is quite rich in its heritage. The reason why this system was developed begins with cause and effect. Its development came of necessity of the time where China’s government (Ming Dynasty, around mid 1600’s) was failing and its neighbors began to invade. The survival of China’s culture and way of life were in the balance – and ultimately the ever-looming end to the Southern Shaolin Temple, thus being the impetus to develop a fighting system to counter all fighting styles. It had to be practical, easy to learn and retain, and deliver maximum results with minimal effort (with and without weapons). Through a 30 year collaborated effort between Ming royal officers and the monks and scholars of the Southern Shaolin Temple, Wing Chun was fielded onto the battlefields of China among the myriad of other fighting styles and into guerilla warfare over the next 150 years and down through the secret underground societies to the Red Opera Company built by Cheung (Tan Sau) Ng. Parts of it eventually came through the Red Boats (a “kung fu” melting pot) and ultimately into the public’s hands. It was not until the 8th generation of the Hung Fa Yi lineage, Garrett Gee, stepped forward to preserve his knowledge in the hands of a family he felt to be most suited and capable of cherishing and perpetuating it.

The nature of the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun system is (dare I say from my limited experience!!!!) quite simple. It is designed to help us find the way to harmonize with the here and now (reality), which is in reference to this moment in time, this space, and the right energy for this time and space without losing our own nature. When a person loses their nature, their centerline is broken, their personal space is invaded, their structures are asymmetrical, and their energies are erratic. When that person cannot recognize that, their sense of awareness becomes misguided and unfocused. This type of event is an extreme commonality in all combat. To prevent such things from happening, one must know what the nature of their structure for combat is, and how to stay true to their nature. “Know yourself, and then know your opponent.” In HFY, this form of risk management is addressed with two phrases/idioms that define our nature (chapter 5 of our MKF book):

• Saam Dim Yat Sien, Ding Yuhn Sahn: three points one line, establish original nature
• Ng Dou Luk Muhn, Fa Kihn Kwan: five ways and six gates, influence the universe

The first phrase references the vertical alignment of our three centers (tan jung, yan jung, dan tien). Our posture must stay upright at all times in order to optimize energy flow and balance our awareness in all directions. Strangely enough, there is much scientific work currently validating the effects of this very alignment. In the spiritual field, this is core for our meditation and chi cultivation. In the Shaolin sense, we are unifying Heaven, Human, and Earth within ourselves. To break this alignment is to destroy our nature as humans to interact through life with an upright posture. We must do what is most natural (that is also what we tend to do under high levels of stress, which tends to be the easiest as well).

The second phrase defines the width of the body from shoulder to shoulder. This dimension is broken into five lines, each equidistant from each other. Now to help understand why there are only five lines from a spatial standpoint, I shall reference the idea of center in relation to the arms. On a macro-scale, we place our hands on the centerline because that is the most efficient position to occupy in protecting ourselves from shoulder to shoulder. On a micro-scale, we apply the same ideology of efficiency to the elbow. Thus the elbow is ‘centered’ between the centerline and the shoulder. In both cases, the distribution of mass from left to right becomes balanced; two hands on center and both elbows centered between the centerline and shoulder lines. This is true in the case of HFY structure, and is applied to both arms in static structure as well as movement.

The last part of the second phrase points to areas of combat the body must address in order to interact with the immediate ‘universe’ before it. There are four areas to which the arms address, and two areas that the legs address. From high, middle and low (defined by the three reference points), divided by the centerline – this constitutes six zones of attack and defense that must face the enemy directly and at all times. For strategy and tactic, the six gates of the enemy must not orient towards you. Hence, we flank the enemy to the side. (Ultimately these two idioms gave rise to the Wing Chun Formula: Sup Ming Dim - 10 Bright Points. It is this very formula that solidifies all HFY structure to precision, and guides all motion as well.)

In turn, a HFY student must search for any and all things in the enemy non-compliant with our own rules and guidelines. Those [what I perceive as] inefficiencies (things not true to our nature as human beings, defined by the two idioms above) serve as opportunities for their destruction. The system itself (from what I have seen) is very deep in detail, yet very simple in its clarity and application. To me, this is the balance we look for; things with great meaning and simple at the same time. What this comes down to is that you have to know yourself first, and then know your opponent (noted above). All things must point to greater knowledge. I share this with you in an attempt to project somewhat an image of how a HFY person might see things, but I can only offer my perspective on the matter – so this post is very limiting in and of itself. In any case I hope this helps in any way, your curiosity about what HFY is.

Take care,
-Savi.

[PaulH]

Hi Savi,

I like your insights of the HFY system! All very interesting stuffs! One question. What are the ten bright points? Hopefully you can help my light bulb burn a little brighter here?


Cheers,

PH

[Phenix]

Furthermore, there are also many Buddhist practitioners who see no flaw in logic or philosophy regarding Hung Fa Yi as a unique branch of Chan Buddhism. Rather, they see HFY as a reflection of their own Buddha nature. ---Savi


So what is Buddha nature?

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Originally posted by Phenix
Furthermore, there are also many Buddhist practitioners who see no flaw in logic or philosophy regarding Hung Fa Yi as a unique branch of Chan Buddhism. Rather, they see HFY as a reflection of their own Buddha nature. ---Savi


So what is Buddha nature?


It's a topic for discussion on some other forum.

[yuanfen]

The whole thread could be on the HFY forum!!

[yuanfen]

There is also a a shaolin kung fu forrum in KFO.

[yuanfen]

There is also a a shaolin kung fu forum in KFO.

[planetwc]

I think it would be great for additional Shaolin HFY postings to be on the Shaolin Kung Fu forum and the general Kung Fu Forum. And perhaps the "Other Related Arts" forum.

After all, isn't Shaolin Hung Fa Yi the best of the best of Shaolin?
If it is indeed the acme of all that shaolin had to offer, then indeed Garrett Gee is in essence also the Grandmaster of Shaolin!

Perhaps some additional clarification can be made to these folks as well:

http://www.shaolinwingchun.com/

http://www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.com.au/

http://www.wahnam.com/TheShaolinWahnamInstitute.htm

http://www.shaolin-do.com

Now can we get back to plain old "Popular" Wing Chun?
As I recall, that was what this forum was for, rather than ceaseless marketing of Shaolin Hung Fa Yi. Perhaps there is an empty space at the airport solicitation booths, where they could sell flowers and "Mastering Kung Fu".

==============================
"Buddhism never says faith is unimportant; but it advocates that acceptance should not be based on blind faith. Otherwise it may become superstition. Secondly, Buddhism always emphasizes understanding and verification."

Wong Kiew Kit

[Ernie]

savi
first of all thank you for taking the time to break things down , and on another thread for stating that hfy is in no way superior to any other art since in a combative situation it comes down to the individual .
but i do have to agree with the others that this is a wing chun forum , popular , incomplete , watered down what ever the latest business catch phrase is ,
and most of us are more interested in the future , not the shaolin, chan, moon floats over the stars fortune cookie past .
this does belong elsewhere .
if you wish to discuss training and skill development , drills , experiences and concepts , then by all means do so , specificly those that are your first hand experiences and not that of this master and some old dead army .
just be honest and speak out in plain english not cryptic chinese proverbs and then say , '' well you guys just don't understand '' .
i have always felt that if some one trully understands something they can explain it in simple terms , when people fall back on old saying and proverbs they don't really get it and are hiding behind some one elses words and experiences . but that is just me :D
i'm sure you have plenty of first hand '' wing chun '' experiences and training concepts you could share with out all the shaolin , chan , my history can kick your history's butt stuff .
and i for one would welcome real honest discussions with you and your group about such things

p.s. i have for have also caught heat for useing my out of wing chun experience , in and out of the ring to get my point across but even then it's to discuss a wing chun point or skill .

[45degree fist]

I agree and disagree with some of the comments directed toward savi about where to post this. ok it might be a good idea to post in the shaolin area, or make a link to where the post originally started.

but on the the other side he is showing the relationship between the two. he is just puting it out there for you if you want to read it if not, let it pass by. why waste your energy fighting it, if you think we are just trying to get attention then stop giving it to us. then your problem is solved.

[Phenix]

?Saam Dim Yat Sien, Ding Yuhn Sahn: three points one line, establish original nature
?Ng Dou Luk Muhn, Fa Kihn Kwan: five ways and six gates, influence the universe ---Savi


Savi,

Sorry to tell you Yuhn Sahn is a daoist term.
it is not a buddhist term.
This Daoist Yuhn Sahn is the within the 5 Skandha.
Thus, it is not the Original buddha Nature.

Thus, may be you can explain why a secret art from shao lin top Chan monk such as Yat Chan (presume he exist but you need to further show evidents) end up with Daoist Concept and term, and using something within the 5 skandha with is a part of suffering as the original nature?

-------------------------------------------------

The heart sutra of Chan said:

Avalokiteshvara, Kwan Yin, the Bodhisattva of Compassion, meditating deeply on Perfection of Wisdom, saw clearly that the five skandha are empty*, and so released himself from suffering. Answering the monk Sariputra, he said this:

Body is nothing more than emptiness,
emptiness is nothing more than body.
The body is exactly empty,
and emptiness is exactly body.
The other four aspects of human existence --
feeling, thought, will, and consciousness --
are likewise nothing more than emptiness,
and emptiness nothing more than they. ...

____________________________________-





BTW,
Kihn Kwan is also a daoist term. It is not a buddhist term.



Thus, may be you can explain to us how come the Shao Lin paradigm shift fomulars are Daoist and not accord with Prajna wisdom of Chan at all as you can see from the Heart Sutra. Chan empty the 5 skandha. but your post seems to give raise to Heaven Earth Human... time space... isnt it pulling the reverse gear of empty the 5 skandha?



Please keep it technical only and enlightent us. again. you can choose to ignore my questions. it is understood. may be I am out of wack.

[Savi]

Hendrik,
Reread the chapter in the MKF book which illustrates the 3 primary schools of thought in the Southern Shaolin temple during that era. HFY is not based on only one type of thinking, per se. It is influenced by Daoism, Confusianism and Buddhism.

BUT keep in mind, the KFO Wing Chun forum is not intended for pure philosophical/religious discussions. I will refrain from those type of questions per Sandman.

Paul,
The 10 bright points (Sup Ming Dim) refer to the Wing Chun Formula. If you have followed any previous discussions about the formula, that's what Sup Ming Dim refers to. On the very basic level, it describes three dimensional space (and all its divisions within) in relation to the human form. Hence the two idioms.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Savi
Hendrik,
Reread the chapter in the MKF book which illustrates the 3 primary schools of thought in the Southern Shaolin temple during that era. HFY is not based on only one type of thinking, per se. It is influenced by Daoism, Confusianism and Buddhism.

BUT keep in mind, the KFO Wing Chun forum is not intended for pure philosophical/religious discussions. I will refrain from those type of questions per Sandman.




So it is not a Chan based art?
It doesn't seem to be since it is having a concept different then the heart sutra as shown above.

I dont think it is about philosophical but it is about the root of art which is tangeble. you mention Yuhn Sahn, that term has to be clearify right? otherwise when you practicing or following the formular how can you know which is which and what to achive if it is not clearly define?

It is similar to the practice of different method of ChiGung. Some circulate the chi or called small cosmic, some entering silence or called clean and silence unity, some cultivate the life force, some cultivate the original nature. so the term which is a core of the Kung has to be well define, right?
if it is from Shao Lin do those Chan monk in Southern Shao Lin use the Daoist technics to achive Daoist goal? it is similar to TaiJi and yee Chuan. TaijI has to be define. Yee has to be define. and one cannot put this under the philosophical/relegious catagory because it is a neccessary to define what is the root of the art.

[Da_Moose]

Nice posts Savi!

So far as my understanding of Chan goes, it is basically being spontaneous, not trapped in one moment or another, past or future, but living in the here and now. Having this awareness is but a part of the defining roots of the art of HFY. It is very clear to its students what is meant by both phrases:

• Saam Dim Yat Sien, Ding Yuhn Sahn: three points one line, establish original nature
• Ng Dou Luk Muhn, Fa Kihn Kwan: five ways and six gates, influence the universe

There is no ambiguity for us. I think Savi broke them down very well. Like he mentioned though, one has to have the physical experience to completely understand the idioms above. Intellectual understanding alone does not give anyone a complete comprehension of them.

Now, as was also said before, about the red boats being the melting pots of Wing Chun, I believe Chan should be observed in a similar fashion. With all of the Daoist and Buddhist idioms everybody is pointing out, is Chan not a philosophical melting pot of sorts? Remember that there were monks who were masters of Daoism, Buddhism and Confucianism, within Shaolin, so, IMHO, it is inevitable that the three would someday combine.

For those who say the initial post doesn't belong here, I agree with 45degree fist. But, I also have not seen any statements that say the Wing Chun forum is restricted to discussions about experience and techniques either, per Ernie's post. It is a general Wing Chun forum from what the Wai Jia page says. It only describes Wing Chun, it does not restrict the discussions here to technique and first hand experience only.


Humbly,

Steve

[Ernie]

steve
Wing Chun forum is restricted to discussions about experience and techniques either, per Ernie's post. It is a general Wing Chun forum from what the Wai Jia page says.

i am defenitly not the last word about what can and can not be said on this foum , but once you involve religion , politics , and martial arts you have three very volitile subjects , were people's personal oppinions and emotions take priority .
if you keep things on a based on skill development , attribute development , body mechnics , personal experince and training concepts . you have platforms we can all relate to share and grow from .
you have to remember we all have indiviual bond to our sifu's and systems , but we don't need to conform others to our way of thought '' this is were the whole scientolgy creepy thing takes over ''
if we just share what's going on from a peronal level , not from a systematic level we can pass information back and forth with out the my way is better then your way thing.
we all have ways to address range ,position , power speed timing , and adaptability '' our formula's'' if you will but we dont need to impose them on and other .
but if you share personal experience in application of a concept from your formula , then perhaps others can input and a healthy disscusion can take shape.

[Phenix]

Now, as was also said before, about the red boats being the melting pots of Wing Chun,


I believe Chan should be observed in a similar fashion.

With all of the Daoist and Buddhist idioms everybody is pointing out, is Chan not a philosophical melting pot of sorts?


Remember that there were monks who were masters of Daoism, Buddhism and Confucianism, within Shaolin,

so, IMHO, it is inevitable that the three would someday combine. ----------D



Wow, if everything can be re define as one likes it. disregard of if one knows them or not; WCK, Shao Lin, .......and what else cannot be re define?



so according to history, Chi Sim was killed by White eyebrows Daoist, that is no supprise but expected because even Chisim was practicing White Eyebrows daoist art. Is that right?

since Daoist dominate the core of Shao lin art, why bother even put a Shao Lin label?


so, WCK is originate from Daoist art such as brother art Bagua and Taiji with Yuhn Sahn and Kuen Kuan?...., So why bother even called it WCK? is it just a Daoist art with Shao Lin label?

But then, how come other Southern Shao Lin art doesn't using yuhn Sahn and Kuin Kuan.... those Daoist core?


IT is indeed a paradigm shift when one can define anything one likes to be anything one intended to be.

[Mike Mathews]

Paul,

The Sup Ming Dim expression refers to the HFY formula. It gives us our awareness of space. By first recognizing our space we start to relate and identify to what is efficient and eventually what is the most efficient.


Regards,

Mike

[Da_Moose]

Ernie,

If it is a general Wing Chun forum, as you stated, I am just wondering why Savi got so much grief for his post. It is about Wing Chun. All he did was to open a discussion about some of the HFY training concepts, nothing more.

Is not the study of history so we understand the present an experience? He also presented some historical data for others to consider and experience.

In no way did I see him try to impose his beleifs onto others.

Phenix,
So then, what is Esperanto? Renamed Spanish? French? Portuguese? German? No, it is a language with elements of many other languages. It was made from existing languages to try and make a common language in Europe.

I did not re-label anything. What happens when you make an alloy? Is it a renamed metal? No, it is a combination of the original metals into something different.

Chan is pretty much the same, a combination of Daoism, Buddhism and Confucianism into something new. They are all methods of looking at reality.

Steve

[yuanfen]

Da Moose from dayton sez:

Chan is pretty much the same, a combination of Daoism, Buddhism and Confucianism into something new. They are all methods of looking at reality.

Steve
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is what Chan is? In this season- forgive him- in his groupthink amd enthusiasm- he knows not what he says!
Another voice in a noisy choir!!

[Phenix]

Da_Moose



See, the best way to Screw up all Real Shao Lin is to propagate fault teaching on everything . Then, when a lie was repeat 100 times everyone believe in it. So, when the decendent of Chinese got stupid and can't differentiate who is thier ancestors. The Qing Got them CONTROL. Slik isn't it?



are you sure you are not the spy of Qing? who tries to Screw up all the Real Shao Lin? or you are starting to believe the Qing?:D

[Ernie]

steve
Ernie,

If it is a general Wing Chun forum, as you stated, I am just wondering why Savi got so much grief for his post. It is about Wing Chun. All he did was to open a discussion about some of the HFY training concepts, nothing more.

Is not the study of history so we understand the present an experience? He also presented some historical data for others to consider and experience.

In no way did I see him try to impose his beleifs onto others.

Steve,
first of all hate to break it to you but I don't care about history , or this or that religion, I don't need to know how the first gun was created to use a modern day rifle , and I definitely don't need to know what the original creators beliefs were to squeeze the trigger and pop a cap in some one a$$ today .
it simply doesn't matter from a combative stand point , I understand that people get all nostalgic and want to relive some old kung fu movie were the cloths say all the fortune cookie proverbs and get a sense of security in being part of something bigger and older then themselves .
but when it comes to having to shut down some psycho the bum rushes out of nowhere and starts serving you a shoe job ,
don't really have time to get philosophical .
no if you never plan on fighting or training in a intense environment and need to fill the void with all kinds of insignificant details then by all means go for it .
keep recites mantras and proverbs and sit under the water fall meditate and seek enlightenment ,
but if you ever want to come to the real world were things are ugly and dirty and people have no honor , and you want to discuss or share and discuss attribute development and training approaches with out all the fortune cookie mumbo jumbo , you know plan English
dude I'm all ears and would welcome it like a breath of fresh air.
another thing is you notice that many people here can contribute to conversations with constantly referring to there linage that might help take of the negative publicity you guys are getting , just step up as individuals with individual ideas and experiences
I'm sure many people would relate to that better I know that would.

[canglong]

If it is a general Wing Chun forum, as you stated, I am just wondering why Savi got so much grief for his post. Yes maybe you have hit on something, Ernie why do so many people appear to go out of their way to post on some threads but not others when it would be much easier to just ignore Savi's post if you find it not to be your cup of tea, lets think about that for a moment.

[Ernie]

simple the same reason I give hendrik a hard time
I see glimpses of some thing good .
through all cryptic blah blah blah , there are some interesting possibilities for conversation .
now I may be a bit of a smart a$$ but I am honest and sometimes hit raw nerves to bring out raw truth .
even when I critiqued the book I never said I thought it sucked or the information offered was bad , I just said nothing new to me . and all of a sudden the flames began , like I was being disrespectful because I wasn't overwhelmed or enlightened , but yet I went out of my way borrowed the book and took the time to read it twice , I think I gave that information a far and open shot .
but when guys got all wierded out it was freaky like single minded Borg type community and so I got the who scientology feeling from you guys .
and trust me I know the vibe one of my accounts was a scientology center in Hollywood and the type of singular minded approach , the who if you don't get it then your not smart enough ego thing to .
not that being said understand were I come from , I have no interest in history so what ever you claim is true or not I just don't care ,
I have interest in what ever you worship pray to or doctrine you follow that's personal and should be left to the individual .
all I care about is combative application , can you fight , have you any accomplished fighters , if so how do you develop attributes and train them in a pressure environment , and are you achieving a level of consistency .
these questions remain to be answered and I can't say anything negative or positive about this since it has not become a topic of discussion,
so I'm hanging in there and seeing what comes of it , kind of like watching a car wreck you know you shouldn't stare but for some reason you keep looking :D

[Savi]

Ernie,
I appreciate your POV, and I'd like to add my own. When it comes to discussing technical things, there a two areas that are usually addressed: "What and How" to do things, and "Why" you do those things. Much of your comments, in my opinion have an arching emphasis on What, How, Where & When - but not too much on Why. In regards to real life combat, the survivor most oftentimes is the one who knows why things happened the way they did. If I am off target with how I read your posts, just let me know.

When I address things I tend to gravitate to the why in addition to how and when.

[canglong]

but when guys got all wierded out it was freaky ernie, can you please acknowledge the who what where why and how of this statement?

[Ernie]

savi
now were talking :D
i do look at the why but maybe not the same you do ,
the why is why would I do this instead of that at this moment in time '' training mindset ''
[ time , distance , spatial relationship to the opponent , I know you have a formula you follow for this ]

the how is simply the mechanical component ,
the refining of the motion by way of repetition and pressure and experience


the were and when goes back to the why , why would I use this tool at this time , and this is a combination of experience and applied concept .

but for the most important is adaptability and adjustability , to be able to flow with the unforeseen , this is real world

how do you train for this ,
I have stepped out of the wing chun curriculum and spent allot of time in front of boxers ,Thai fighter,bjj, athletes , wrestlers , weapons sparring and multiple attack scenario's
this give me the experience to adapt when things don't go my way , I still try to adhere to the wing chun concepts and strategies but find I have to often think out side the box to turn the tables on non favorable situation

I can then take this experience and plug it back into my wing chun training , in chi sau or perhaps I find a weakness I had or something I didn't fully understand until I found myself in that situation ,
things take on new meaning , they become personal more then just words and ideas

nice to finally chat with you

[Ernie]

tony
it's a very long list of post do you want me to email to you , i would hate to put it here and have to rehatch everything all over again ,
your call , you can email me at mindzi@pacbell.net

[Da_Moose]

Yuanfen,

So then If I know not what I say, please enlighten me as to what I am thinking and saying. I would be much obliged.

That is what Chan is? In this season- forgive him- in his groupthink amd enthusiasm- he knows not what he says!
Another voice in a noisy choir!!

Can you clarify this initial question please? Since you only took part of my post, it can be interpreted several ways.

Phenix,

I have no idea what you mean in your post to me. Are you implying that the Ching then created the HFY and that they tried to send spies to infiltrate Siu Lam and corrupt the Martial Arts there? Please clarify.

Ernie,

I did not use the example of history to imply that you need to know it to know how the gun works, to use your example. I merely used it to help illustrate that its study is an experience, which is what you wanted to have discussed here. If you recall, I also added that Savi had mentioned some of the HFY training methodologies, explained them in some detail for all to have a clearer understanding, and then was bashed for sharing his experience.

Steve

[Ernie]

steve
Ernie,

I did not use the example of history to imply that you need to know it to know how the gun works, to use your example. I merely used it to help illustrate that its study is an experience, which is what you wanted to have discussed here. If you recall, I also added that Savi had mentioned some of the HFY training methodologies, explained them in some detail for all to have a clearer understanding, and then was bashed for sharing his experience.


i hear you ,
as i just gave my advise to steer things away from ''lineage , politics , and history that points back to linage '' these are the tension points that seem to take every thread the wrong way . as you call bashing .
if some one really knows something and the concept is sound it will stand on it's own with out family title or chinese terminology
just put it out there in a neutral way ,
if it has quality it can't be denied
no need to flower it up
and once you personally start to experience things in a combative element beyond the school setting , you will find plenty of common ground and points of discussion.

[PaulH]

The KFO of the WC kind can be viewed as a ancient replica of the battleground between the old "Injuns" and the "tenderfeet" during those wild wild West days. The messengers from both factions who came in peace for all their kind often ended up with a few arrows or thunder strikes for their gallant deeds. Hope this explains things humorously. Ernie, shut up!

Regards,

PH

[Ernie]

o.k. paul
you make me:D

[PaulH]

Ernie,

True! YOU made me! Ha! Ha!

You know you can shut me up with one hand anytime, so that is very sihing of you. It's time to move on to something more interesting. Let not waste any more precious time running in circle.

Savi, Mike and Andy,

Thanks, guys for your replies!

Regards,

PH

[Savi]

Originally posted by Ernie
i do look at the why but maybe not the same you do ,
the why is why would I do this instead of that at this moment in time '' training mindset '' I get the slight impression that you're saying this questioning should happen during a combat moment and not a training moment. I don't think that is what you meant, but just my impression...

This type of understanding I think should be addressed during your training in the classroom. Being able to recognize that (this technique vs that technique) in combat is dependant on how strong your ability is to maintain yourself in mind and body. Questioning (versus recognizing) things during combat should be minimal at most, I think. You probably agree, but I just wanted to clarify.

To be reflex-proficient with eye-to-hand or hand-to-hand / arm-to-arm response should be drilled in training like there's no tomorrow. In other words, done until it's natural. With the HFY training, the same considerations are obviously understood, but tends to focus on precisely WHY things are done the way they are - in energy, structure and time. The why, from my sense of context - points to the methods, concepts and theories behind the things that we do. So yes you were right in that you and I see "Why" a bit differently.

The "Why", from my POV, is also "talked" about during training - and not intended to be part of the conscious thought process in combat. But one should still strive to strengthen their skills in sophistication and efficiency. I believe that can only be done with those of greater knowledge and experience, as opposed to just time and experience. Much of the technical talk on the internet from the HFY members primarily points to methods, concepts and theories - the "Why". I like to give this type of background information (the "Why") to people who also think on that kind of level. Originally posted by Ernie
the how is simply the mechanical component ,
the refining of the motion by way of repetition and pressure and experience Yes, also agree. Originally posted by Ernie
the were and when goes back to the why , why would I use this tool at this time , and this is a combination of experience and applied concept . This I am not so much in agreement with. The "Where" and "When" points to 'why', but only on a surface level. "Why" as in obvious reasons OR "Why" as in don't - really - know reasons. Do you see my point?

Why do you punch like that?
Because it's stronger and faster.

OK... kind of know why.

Why do you punch like that?
Because there is a specific concept behind this type of structure called X, which also ties to the use of energy and influences the use of my/his timing...

OH, now I know why in so many different faucets. See my point? I'm not being partial to any one system with this example, its just a general example. Originally posted by Ernie
but for the most important is adaptability and adjustability , to be able to flow with the unforeseen , this is real world It most definitely is, and all types of combat training should be taking this into consideration. Those that don't cannot possibly address this issue - from a standpoint of efficiency.Originally posted by Ernie
how do you train for this ,
I have stepped out of the wing chun curriculum and spent allot of time in front of boxers ,Thai fighter,bjj, athletes , wrestlers , weapons sparring and multiple attack scenario's
this give me the experience to adapt when things don't go my way , I still try to adhere to the wing chun concepts and strategies but find I have to often think out side the box to turn the tables on non favorable situation In our curriculum, we train for all ranges of combat as well; from long range kicking to ground fighting. This is done as a supplement to the actual HFY system. Why? Primarily the reasons are for the beginner who comes through the door with little or no experience in combat whatsoever, this really helps them. For the others with experience, it helps them better appreciate all types of fighting as well as allowing them to use their past training and test it against everything being taught, HFY or not. Once they get through to the Chum Kiu level of training, they will have attained a good foundation of HFY Siu Nim Tau and general combat defense and offense. They will know how to attack with and defend against kickers, boxers, trap/strikers and grapplers effectively. Originally posted by Ernie
I can then take this experience and plug it back into my wing chun training , in chi sau or perhaps I find a weakness I had or something I didn't fully understand until I found myself in that situation ,
things take on new meaning , they become personal more then just words and ideas

nice to finally chat with you This is also the need being addressed by our curriculum. The best way to understand and appreciate something for what it is (regarding combat), is to get in there and mix it up with all types of fighters. The greater experience you have in all areas, the stronger judgement you can make about what exactly it is you know (what is good or bad, effective or more efficient), as well as strengthening your own combat skills to boot. Nice chatting with you too.

[Ernie]

savi
This I am not so much in agreement with. The "Where" and "When" points to 'why', but only on a surface level. "Why" as in obvious reasons OR "Why" as in don't - really - know reasons. Do you see my point?

Why do you punch like that?
Because it's stronger and faster.

i would answer from experience , because it was the effecient tool at the time and it fit the moment , the relationship between myself and the opponet , the door opened what ever door it my be kick ,punch, tackle , bite , pull hair , eyejab , etc,,,,,
i recognized it , adapted to it and filled the void ,
how does one know this '' awareness '' and adaptability to the living energy of a combative exhange , to sieze the sweet spot , the moment in time recognize it and use it .

this comes aftr you have developed your tools in class and then take them into the real world were things get sloppy distance expandes and contracts line of attack and elevation all change at a instant ,
then the why answers itself , why because i was told to do it this and have practiced it in a steril enviroment this way , the doctrine says it must be this way.
this puts a lot of pressure to perform in a kind of box '' not talking about you just being general''

or why because it just worked naturally at the given moment against that given person
no pressure here just free natural motion and response , an expression of what you trained .


savi [[They will know how to attack with and defend against kickers, boxers, trap/strikers and grapplers effectively. ]]

first of all it's awsome that you do accept and adress all the different ranges and possibilites in your train ,
the question i have and please answer honestly do you really go up against highly skilled people from all the other disciplines , there is a big difference from having it seem to be sound and effecient against a class mate or a guy that used to box compared to a guy that is one his game and is very skilled ,
i had great revelations when i stepped out of the comfort of home and had to quickly adapt to getting dropped over and over again ,


savi
[[This is also the need being addressed by our curriculum. The best way to understand and appreciate something for what it is (regarding combat), is to get in there and mix it up with all types of fighters. The greater experience you have in all areas, the stronger judgement you can make about what exactly it is you know (what is good or bad, effective or more efficient), as well as strengthening your own combat skills to boot. Nice chatting with you too.]]

first of all very refreshing discussion , thanks for taking the high road savi , but hopefully in further discussions could we leave linage out of it i would love just to talk man to man , with out the '' system hovering over the conversation , notice i next to never bring up my system , i take personal responsibility for my achievements or failure , as i am a work in progress , it would be cool to get to know you in that fashion.
what personal experiences have you had when applying your training against other stylist , that were turning points or inspirational .
i found that as soon as i got in the ring with a pro heavy wieght boxer for the first time all the things that had worked before didn't , his range was much longer his speed was shockinly fast , he out wieghed my by 100 pounds and stood over a foot taller ,
his timing was far superior to mine and he had broken and slurred rythem
i had to make major adjustments and stradagy changes to even survive in there but i learned alot about not being stubborn and trying force some concept to work .
anything like that happen to you yet
thanks for the chat

[KenWingJitsu]

Can I just say that until I started reading Ernie's posts closely, I never realized how much alike we are.

I love it!!!!!!!!!!

Politically incorrect Ernie rules the house!!!!!!

And his Kung-fu IS better :p

Seriosuly,......who cares about all that stuff? What can YOU do? Can ya use Wing CHun? How do you train TODAY? Are ya living in fantasy or reality?

Be real.

[Ernie]

Dhira

dude you crack me up , thanks for the kind words , :D
I'm sure you would mop the floor with me ,
as for being real , better to be a '' real individual '' responsible for your own gains and loses , the to be just another number in a collective with no identity

if that means being politically incorrect , so be it
but I will always be honest , no hidden agenda or doctrine to follow just plain old me straight up and down no special effects :D

[anerlich]

There is definite value in having concepts, understanding the physics, yadayadayada, as opposed to just saying "hit the guy like this because it hurts him more."

There is plenty of martial arts science out there, of varying quality. With the vast amounts of individual and national prestige involved, the sports of boxing, wrestling, and judo will have received enormous amounts of scrutiny, input and modification of technique and training method from scientists of various disciplines.

"These are only sports" ... OK, but the same is true of police and other peacekeepers, whose methods have had much scrutiny and input along the same lines. People like Tony Blauer and his ilk have been advising such people for a long time.

Most grappling styles are WAY more technical than any style of WC, and their technical base much more complex.

If you want to see a really DEEPLY scientifically based combat system, check out ROSS.

My point? Scientific knowledge builds and increases over time. In these times, there is a plethora of information on every aspect of fighting out there.

It is debatable how deep one really has to go, just like to be a world champion race car driver you don't have to know engines, fuels and the like. If you try to drive and concentrate on every little nunce of necessary movement, you will probably flood the motor or crash.

At the end a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick.

But it is IMO also scientifically invalid to assume that the zenith of fighting methodology sprung fully formed about 250 years ago, and the fact that it has remained unsullied (or unimproved, YMMV), for all that time is, to be kind, anomalous.

If I hav misunderstood someone's claims here, I apologise. But if WC of any variety is scientifically based but the last 250 years (or whatever, does it really make a difference?) have been unable to improve WC at all, that flies in the face of the history and philosophy of science, as I understand it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Understanding the "science" behind what you're doing in the style or styles you practice is VERY important...but EQUALLY important is actually doing it...and in fact, doing it is MORE important in the final analysis - that is, at least two-thirds of class time should be spent actually doing the moves and no more than one-third discussing the moves, concepts, etc. (and in fact one-third is probably a very generous number) -

otherwise the outcome at the end of the day is a very cerebral martial artist whose fighting skills are just average at best...

and I suspect that given the amount of "cerebral" discussion around here by a certain group of folks is a major indicator of just how effective they really are as fighters - notwithstanding the fact that their system (HFY) is, in all probability - a very good one.

Just a hunch - based on my frequent observation (for many years now) that when the "theory" instead of the details (ie. - techniques used in various scenarios) is what's emphasized - it usually means that applying the details is a weak point...the proverbial "weak link in the chain".

[Savi]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Understanding the "science" behind what you're doing in the style or styles you practice is VERY important...but EQUALLY important is actually doing it...and in fact, doing it is MORE important in the final analysis - that is, at least two-thirds of class time should be spent actually doing the moves and no more than one-third discussing the moves, concepts, etc. (and in fact one-third is probably a very generous number) -

otherwise the outcome at the end of the day is a very cerebral martial artist whose fighting skills are just average at best... One-third is a very generous fraction. I agree with your assessment here. Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
and I suspect that given the amount of "cerebral" discussion around here by a certain group of folks is a major indicator of just how effective they really are as fighters - notwithstanding the fact that their system (HFY) is, in all probability - a very good one.

Just a hunch - based on my frequent observation (for many years now) that when the "theory" instead of the details (ie. - techniques used in various scenarios) is what's emphasized - it usually means that applying the details is a weak point...the proverbial "weak link in the chain". I will give you the benefit of the doubt that your perception of the HFY family is all about talk. However, this is not the case, and the few HFY members who interact on this forum do not constitute the whole of our family, or our kung fu. This forum does not represent the training floor either, mind you.

I spend an average of 35 hours at the kwoon outside of work and home life, teaching and training. Though some might take your comments above as an attempt to provoke hostility, it makes me smile to see such humor in your posts. Keep at it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Savi:

Look...the science of wing chun (regardless of which wc system, though some more then others)...the science is definitely fascinating and mind-expansive - but the point I've been trying to make is that too often too many people get caught up in the science of it all and don't spend enough time really getting down with the APPLICATION of all this science IN TERMS OF REAL FIGHTING TECHNIQUE - as it applies to real fighting scenarios...

I suppose it 's all a matter of agendas...some people "claim" to have none, some will show theirs either overtly or covertly. I let it be known some time ago that my agenda is to promote TWC - but if one looks carefully at the sum total of all my posts it shouild be clear that promoting TWC is the "moon" in my universe -

the "sun" - around which everything else revolves - is having plain spoken discussions with other wing chun folks about SPECIFIC strategies, tactics, and techniques regading SPECIFIC fighting scenarios (ie. -how to escape from a headlock, how to defend a double leg takedown, how to blatantly attack from a cross front stance, how to deal with a boxers' jab/cross combo from a parallel neutral side stance, etc. etc.).

These are the kinds of things that interest me the most - and aside from yourself and a very few others my biggest frustration with the great majority of the HFY posters here is that they try to avoid talking about these kinds of SPECIFIC, TECHNIQUE-BASED fighting scenarios at all costs....

further fueling my (and I am by no means the only one) SCEPTICISM about HFY"s claims - notwithstanding the fact that much of the HFY I have seen looks very similar to TWC - which I obviously think is a good thing.

[Savi]

To all,
For my part, regarding HFY application, it is very difficult to discuss things like TECHNIQUE-BASED fighting scenarios in this forum for several reasons.

• Everybody has different versions of any given technique. Due to this reality, the variance of structure from person to person will wield a variance in their success rate. Structure and Energy are symbiotic. If you change the structure, in any way, you affect the energy ultimately changing the nature of the technique.

So how can we talk about technique when each of us has different natures for the same technique then? You first have to understand what correct structure and correct energy is (according to your kung fu) to apply the precise nature of that given technique. Without explaining these things, we are talking two different languages. Eliminating the name of the techniques might make it easier, but the discussion would have to turn to greater details just to explain it.

• Techniques ultimately have no meaning at all. Why? The technique merely represents the finger pointing to the moon. The technique should not be the focus as it does not represent the end-all be-all solution to anything, but is a reflection of the truth behind it; the concepts and theories, as well as the shape and energy that drives the technique(s).

In this forum, these types of discussions (HFY's "way" of doing things) cannot be met because we have to have an understanding of each others’ way of doing things first. If anything, I feel that by explaining the underlying concepts and theories first will better help others identify with how we do things in HFY application. At best, people will only have a very vague idea of what a HFY application is, and even that vague idea could be far off target.

• In order to talk about how HFY does things you really have to understand how the system operates. Without it, the details we share are completely subject to another's definition of doing things, hence the first two bullet points. You have to know the philosophy, concepts, theories, strategy and tactics in order to relate to HFY at all. You have to be able to see things from the HFY perspective. So in the end, without knowing these things, the discussion is pointless.

The bottom line comes down to this; because HFY is so different than any other Wing Chun out there, you have to learn HFY in order to have a FRUITFUL discussion about its combat applications. If you don’t want to learn, come over to my place or a HFY school. We’ll show you what we mean, and then we can have tea and talk about the “Why” of things.

I think talking about HFY combat applications here is pointless until you have some foundation in HFY knowledge. Otherwise, you won’t understand the context of what is being said. This may be perhaps why the HFY members spend a lot of time trying to explain these things in order to facilitate the level of communication and understanding here? I hope this helps.

[Savi]

Sifu Parlati,

If I and a few others frustrate you, then my question is not about how, but WHY are you getting frustrated by "us"? Is it because "we" don't give in to comments like: Originally posted by Ulitmatewingchun
otherwise the outcome at the end of the day is a very cerebral martial artist whose fighting skills are just average at best...

and I suspect that given the amount of "cerebral" discussion around here by a certain group of folks is a major indicator of just how effective they really are as fighters -

when the "theory" instead of the details (ie. - techniques used in various scenarios) is what's emphasized - it usually means that applying the details is a weak point...the proverbial "weak link in the chain". and add fire to the thread until it burns and dies? Or is it because you don't think we are talking from experience? Do you think that the HFY family just sits around contemplating and conspiring how complex we can make things? Perhaps you and a few others think we're full of cr@p and that we make all this up.

It is however irrelevant, any of the questions or opinions above. I appreciate what you have said, the good and bad points. The HFY members here who share their take on HFY are driven by experience. The HFY system works, and it is not easy to understand HFY unless you do it yourself. It is not as easy to explain HFY because it is one complex system, but it is very easy to apply once you have the mechanics. As I said before, "The system itself (from what I have seen) is very deep in detail, yet very simple in its clarity and application. To me, this is the balance we look for; things with great meaning and simple at the same time." Don't you think this is true?

[anerlich]

The technique merely represents the finger pointing to the moon.

Some people may not get to see the moon unless the finger directs them.

Matt Thornton of the Straight Blast Gym, another gentleman who has thought long and hard about the process and philosophy of producing proficient combat athletes, teaches techniques FIRST, because in his opinion the technique illustrates the principle he is trying to instill better than all the theorising in the world.

Lest anyone take issue with him being a JKD teacher, think first about who you first heard utter the "finger pointing to the moon" phrase (on film, presumably).

Check out the Philosophy ling on www.straightblastgym.com. If you read it with an open mind, as I will my copy of "Mastering Kung Fu" when it is finally delivered by Amazon, it sohlud at least give you food for thought.

because HFY is so different than any other Wing Chun out there

TWC is different to any other Wing Chun out there also. Wing Tsun Australia had a marketing line for a while, "you'll see the difference". WT is different from any other Wing Chun out there. IMO (Victor may disagree) TWC is different to HFY, which, as a TWC practitioner, I regard as a good thing, as no doubt do HFY practitioners.

[yuanfen]

Amerlich sez:

FIRST, because in his opinion the technique illustrates the principle he is trying to instill better than all the theorising in the world.
----------------------------------------------------------------
FWIW- what attracted me to wing chun in the first place were the applications.Theory came later.

BTW- two very good wing chun teachers I know--- both say-
practice- dont talk too much-its all in there- just practice.!!

[Savi]

OK, I think I am giving off the impression that theory comes first, but in case others have not read this before I also mentioned that the deeper concepts and theories are discussed afterwards as well and not upfront. But that's in regards to teaching.

Teaching is one thing. We are not teaching HFY over the internet. My point is that it's good to have some background info first before talking about combat apps from a system you don't train.

[anerlich]

OK, I think I am giving off the impression that theory comes first, but in case others have not read this before I also mentioned that the deeper concepts and theories are discussed afterwards as well and not upfront. But that's in regards to teaching.

Yeah, OK, but incremental intro of deeper or more complex material is pretty standard pedagogy for just about anything. Nothing revalatory about that.

We are not teaching HFY over the internet. Neither teaching nor preaching, I would hope.

My point is that it's good to have some background info first before talking about combat apps from a system you don't train.

Agreed. Though there is an apparent mindset that even Sifu or "Master" level experience in another lineage of WC, supplemented by reading about the system (just another lineage from one POV) at length on KFO, other internet sites, or out of the book, provides no background for such understanding of HFY.

"we are so different and so special you can't possibly understand us. Don't even bother trying, just accept what you are told by us, the enlightened"

Such ideas have been, and remain, contentious.

[Ernie]

joy
[[practice- dont talk too much-its all in there- just practice.!!]]]
how dare you give out the real secret
:D

1 experience is worth a thousand techniques ,
personal experience can never be taken away or altered , no one can lie to you , since it is yours

quote from wsl '' talking is easy , now doing that is sonething else ''

usually don't quote others , but i have experienced these :D

quote from my training partner '' when your looking up at me, flat on your back spitting out blood , will it really matter what angle your tan sau was , or which way my big toe was pointing ''

sadly experienced that one to'' ouch ''
and finally '' analyze to paralyze ''

[Savi]

Originally posted by anerlich
Yeah, OK, but incremental intro of deeper or more complex material is pretty standard pedagogy for just about anything. Nothing revalatory about that. Wasn't trying to be. Just trying to put certain things into a different perspective in an attempt to help some people who have an interest. Originally posted by anerlich
"we are so different and so special you can't possibly understand us. Don't even bother trying, just accept what you are told by us, the enlightened"

Such ideas have been, and remain, contentious. Such ideas like these are your own, and is not the mindset we carry here. The perspective you share in the above quote does not reflect the HFY family at all. If you would like to paint a picture of the HFY members on this forum as such, that's your own sense of attachment. Originally posted by ernie
1 experience is worth a thousand techniques ,
personal experience can never be taken away or altered , no one can lie to you , since it is yours Very true! Very true. Hence my persistence that HFY cannot be fully understood through the internet. You gotta experience it! What matters is what happens. Does it matter; the details of your technique? If it worked, well, only if you care. If it didn't, again only if you care. Some people who win or lose do not bother with understanding why they won or lost, so long as they are alive. And that can be the most important thing. Originally posted by ernie
will it really matter what angle your tan sau was , or which way my big toe was pointing No, but that is because that's already after the fact. IMO I'd rather take stock in things that eliminate the mindset of "lucky strikes or blocks". I prefer to know exactly what happened, how it happened and why it happened as it happened, in real time combat. I'd rather be as aware as possible of as many aspects of the combat at hand regarding what my opponent does, and what I do. That way, I'll know what I did right and wrong - learning from each experience. But that doesn't mean thinking about the angles of my parts at all times. That's what training is for. Combat is about action and reaction.

Ernie, in answer to your question earlier on this thread, at our school we do have many accomplished fighers, a few black belts of other disciplines, and plain old street fighters that truly enjoy tearing it up during our General Combat classes. They love to use their non-WC tools and we go all out sometimes. I've had my lip split open quite a few times. Check out this pic...

http://www.hfy108.com/photohost/showphoto.php?photo=71&password=&sort=1&cat=3002&page=1

That was after my sidai's bald head slammed into my face (my tooth went right through my lip from front to back) when we were sparring with grappling. That was a fun time... But we mix it up with boxers, kick boxers, grapplers/wrestlers, mantis practitioners - we have a large variety of stylists at our school. I think it's great to have such opportunities to train with people "outside the box".

[anerlich]

Check this one out. After a grading in early 1999.

(Warning: no shirt, chest and underarm hair. Don't say nobody told you)

Two black eyes, note the left (my left) side of my chest. You can't quite make it out here, but I have Sifu's palm print with three fingers individually visible on my left ribs. I'm suprised you can't also see the tread pattern of his ASICS wrestling boot as well. I think he gave me one black eye, one of my sparmates the other.

I got drunk with my training buds and Sifu that night, the hangover hurt worse than any injury.

I probably get a black eye or split lip every 2-3 months. I've been knocked out once after a takedown on a hard floor, and cracked ribs and got regular "accidental" elbows to the face during BJJ. Don't have snaps of any of those.

We spar with grappling every session, unless it's boxing.

http://www.zeta.org.au/~ajnerl/funAtTraining.jpg

[anerlich]

If you would like to paint a picture of the HFY members on this forum as such, that's your own sense of attachment.

Attachment to what? :confused: Spare me the pop psychology and amateur Zen philosophy, please. I've been getting that from Hendrik for years without having to listen to latter day pretenders from elsewhere.

[Ernie]

savi
[[[[ prefer to know exactly what happened, how it happened and why it happened as it happened, in real time combat.]]]

i understand you need to know , but in all reality . you can never crystalize a fight , it's like trying to find the same grian of sand twice on the beach , or breath in the same exact breath of air ,
you can't do it ,
it's living and changeing , and you can't judge when or were or who , you will fight in the street .

many martial artist make that mistake , the assume ,
then they come up with styles and concepts to deal with these assumptions '' i mean this universally '' not just you.

the best we can do is experience enough uncomfortable situations that we are able to adjust and adapt faster then our opponent .

there are only thing that is certain '' uncertainty ''

if some one tells me they have all the answers i know they are lying ,
if my sifu , coach teacher , tried to make me believe he or she new it all i would laugh and walk away , i respect the person that admits '' they don't know '' but is willing to experienment with the problem .

, i am glad you agree with the experience concept i would love to add more but i told you i won't take any discussions seriously until you stop flying your banner in every post .
just be that regular dude with the busted lip that laughs about it then we can relate :)

[Savi]

Anerlich,
Give it a break already man. I'm not going to entertain the endless arguing on this thread. I'd ask if you could leave those type of comments off this thread at least... please. I appreciate you sharing the picture. Looks like you had fun.


Ernie,
You and I certainly have two different ways of looking at the same things. Let me put it this way (to be blunt, but not defensive/sensitive) regarding "lineage banners" as you put it. I don't care what you think about me "supposedly" flying a "HFY banner" in this discussion because:

1. This thread is entitled "HFY and Shaolin" so expect to see HFY mentioned somewhere along the lines here.

2. My martial knowledge is rooted in the HFY and Ip Man Gung Fu systems. If I have to reference where certain knowledge comes from, then I'll give credit where it is due.

3. I make no suggestions as to what you should or shouldn't mention when discussing things. If you can't see past my decision or reasons for #2, just ignore them if you want to talk. I could just as easily make a suggestion to you about the way you communicate, but I don't because I respect you. Though I do not quite understand your reasons for making such a suggestion to me, I will try to find a way to help you out. If I can't, oh well...

Aside from that issue...

In my gung fu training, it is stressed that to be a master of yourself, you have to know yourself. Martial arts after all, is about mastering oneself. That means, to me, I have to dominate my personal space which entails knowing how, where, and when my parts move - and why they are doing those things at all times to the level that it is second nature; where I know without thinking about it.

The fundamental basis of self-defense lies in knowing how to protect yourself; risk management. How do you manage your composure, your awareness, your use of space and energy, your Time (and timing)? The less you are aware of these things within yourself, the more likely you are to fail against attacks, or fall into the mindset of "lucky strike fighting" is the only way to go. These are all issues dealing with the self. Training, on any given level, is designed to do just that so that when you finally know yourself, all your attention can be undividedly given to the enemy. But experience, will tell you if you are on the right path. So you need both guidance and experience. Savvy?

I have been in only a few uncontrolled fights. Several before I began my gung fu training, and one after. Since then, all of my other 'all out fighting' has been under friendly atmosphere. In all my uncontrolled fights I never cared nor realized what I was doing so long as I was hitting the guy back. Experience has taught me that emotions cannot be the source of combative skill and prowess. Preparation for combat may do absolutely nothing for your ability to endure combat. Uncertainty is a reality, but should not be at the center of your awareness. Knowing yourself (Certainty, in other words) at all times should be. To me, that is the strength of my survival.

As I said in my first two posts on this thread: "...find the way to harmonize with the here and now (reality), which is in reference to this moment in time, this space, and the right energy for this time and space without losing our own nature." That means yes, combat flows and is always changing. Yes we flow with it. We don't, however, lose or forget ourselves in the process. Most definitely the everchanging elements of combat are as uncertain as telling the future, but that does not mean that I must be just as uncertain (within myself) as that everchanging environment.

I also completely agree that you cannot crystalize a fight - I have never been in contradiction with that statement. You, however, seem to already have a preconceived notion that concepts and theories do just that; crystalize a fight. In truth, they do not. They exist to guide us in knowing ourselves and strengthening our skill and knowledgebase; merely methods of tuning the human machine. Strategy and tactics exist to aide in destroying the opponent. Strategy and tactics exist in the military and in warfare. Are you saying that those same things have no place in civilian combat? Do you think strategy and tactic crystalize fights? If so, how's that? If not, do you agree with what I'm saying?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Anerlich, Ernie :

I've been following the recent posts and interchanges on this thread between yourselves and Savi and I don't envy the frustration you must be going through...ANYMORE...

I, for one, have given up trying to have any serious discussion with any of these HFY guys about techniques, training methods, fighting scenarios, etc.

Too much hype and "you just can't understand us because we've got the formula and you don't" NONSENSE being bandied about.

[yuanfen]

Victor- I do not think that either Anerlich or Ernie are
"frustrated". They can speak for themselves, but in their posts
I dont see frustration- normally defined.

BTW as the HFY folks say-they have a great chat line of their own.
Possibly a good place for folks to ask and answer HFY questions?

BTW- Victor- I dont know the whole NYC area- are you in Manhattan?

[Phil Redmond]

Ultimatewingchun
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2003
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posts: 429

Joy, I just had to post this.....smile.
He's in the Park Slope area of Brooklyn, not too far from the Manhattan Bridge.

[Ernie]

savi

as i often find myself saying to my partners , when we first think of learning to fight , we are only intersted in controlling the other person , but this desire to control some one else , only serves to control you ,
you become dictated by his actions or emotions .
an echo with no purpose or direction

as we gain experience , and self awarness we realize the goal is to control ourselves , not to be so concerned with what the other person is doing , be aware of you speed timing position power , and ability to adapt and read ,

buy developing our tools and attributes , mental and physical and emotional , we develop a way to maintain a relationship with a opponent

but buy accepting our individual natures , strengths and weakness , we develop a honesty of self

when i hear concepts and theories ,Strategy and tactics
i agree with the initial usefulness but i have seen them become traps as people try desperatly to adhere to the doctirine and lose honesty of self ,
often the doctrine creates a cookie cutter system were every one is excpected to do exactly the same thing at the same time , regardless of body type , natural attributes and emotional make up ,
this would deny the human factor and thus lose true honesty .

as for the banner thing , you took the wrong way , i was trying to alieviate un wanted negitve energy , so that a positive conversation could evolve ,

i'm sure you don't care what system i train under and i don't care what system you train under , systems are just things , not living or breathing , i have no emotional connection to training methods . it's the individual journey and development that interest me

savi[[You and I certainly have two different ways of looking at the same things.]]

and this is a beautiful thing , there are many roads to the same place , we can't experience them all but we can share them with othres along the way,

thanks for your reply as allways , and you are right this thread is about your linage so i will wait for another ''time place and space '':D
to continue our conversation .

on a side note i ran into some one that recently spent time at your frisco school , he hung out with benny and garret trained a bit and gave me a break down on his impression of things .

[yuanfen]

Thanks Phil.

[yuanfen]

Phil or Victor-Thomas who was with Moy Yat- he is in manhattan- right in Times square?
He is pretty good if memory serves.

[black and blue]

on a side note i ran into some one that recently spent time at your frisco school , he hung out with benny and garret trained a bit and gave me a break down on his impression of things .

And what were those impressions?

[Ernie]

impresions ,
i'm not one to pass on rumors or interpetaions on a open forum since i wasn't there , that would be disrespectful , to the school and to the person that spoke to me ,
but he helped me to understand the mentality , and that inturn helps me to understand the reasoning behind the wording ,

[Savi]

Concerning Traps...

In my opinion, things that become traps can be things people blindly follow - and things they do not fully understand. A system, in and of itself, can become a trap. That is, until you discover the nature of that system and your own identity; when you finally understand that particular 'thing' and if it reinforces what you understand about yourself. Swimming can be a trap if you've never swam before. Once you actually learn the different methods of swimming, is it really a trap anymore? Or do you do what is necessary to swim?

Could the same be said about the various methods within martial arts? If certain methods are in contradiction with what is practical (direct, simple and efficient) then maybe that method does not belong. But if it does, and it's something you have never learned before, is it worth learning? I think, in the end, things that become understood are things one knows how to let go of. In that sense, things (like concepts and theories) are no longer "traps" (because they are understood).

Ernie, I agree with nearly everything you said - aside from your beliefs about concepts and theories. I think if we had some examples of a concept or theory from both sides, we might find a common ground.

That: "You have to experience it" Nonsense...

Is that type of quote above really nonsense to people? I wonder why that would be so. Being that we are talking about martial arts, and martial arts require the physical experience to understand it.... I thought that would be a given! I can tell you about the taste of an apple if you've never tasted one yourself, but you won't truly understand it until you taste one. Why get frustrated about that reality? (Personally I am doing what I can (for my part) to help people out the best I can regarding the welcomed interest in HFY. I enjoy these discussions, so long as they remain non-hostile.)

All of us here know that words and talk can only get anybody so far in their understanding. The act of doing those things will bring our understandings far deeper than words can convey. I understand that the people here feel all this "HFY TALK" is nonsense. And to them, it is true because they haven't experienced HFY gung fu to give those words any meaning! It is Experience that gives our (general 'our') words meaning. I don't see anything wrong or offensive about that. The same could be said about me trying to understand TWC, YKS WC or LTWT etc... via the internet or articles. I wouldn't truly understand those systems unless I had the first hand experience. So why not give HFY the same treatment/assessment?

Regarding the HFY family within the WC Comm. I am quite sure that the more seminars the HFY & VTM have in the future, the more we all can relate to each other. Even this forum could benefit greatly from it, as it would (hopefully) nullify much of the hostility and aggression around here.

Sifu Parlati, thanks for your input. I think I understand you better.

"BTW as the HFY folks say-they have a great chat line of their own. Possibly a good place for folks to ask and answer HFY questions?"

Sifu Chaudhuri's persistence about his quote above is both flattering and revealing. I appreciate his help in "marketing" the existence of www.hfy108.com :) but I also think that he would love to get rid of the HFY discussions here. So to me, it's his way of saying "Why don't you guys go back to your newfound home!" without really saying it.

Yes, it is a great place to ask questions. It's a great place to post your own photos too. We get new members more frequently now, but the discussions are still "here and there" in comparison to KFO. HFY108 is still a very young place, but that's OK. Besides, I am a member here, and there are a few people here who like to talk about HFY. Just because a few people don't like HFY doesn't mean HFY should go away from this forum. I couldn't be so selfish! So, unfortunately for some people, I'm going to stay. *shrug*

[PaulH]

Savi,

Seeing that you are a fan of the Roads epic, I thought this line is kind of ironic and humorous in view of your previous post to Joy.


Sam:
KFO. The one place in Middle Road we don't want to see any closer. It's the one place we are trying to get to. It's just where we can't get. Let's face it Mr. Frodo. We're lost. I don't think Savvy meant for us to come this way.
Frodo:
He didn't mean for a lot of things to happen, Sam. But they did.

[Ernie]

savi i was going to bow out of thread but you said some really great things here
[[A system, in and of itself, can become a trap]]

every system is a trap , in the sense of do you work for the system , then yes it's a trap

does the system work for you , if so then it's just atool you use when you need to


. [[That is, until you discover the nature of that system and your own identity; when you finally understand that particular 'thing' and if it reinforces what you understand about yourself. Swimming can be a trap if you've never swam before. Once you actually learn the different methods of swimming,]]

how do you understand the methods of swiming , with out swiming , and what if one leg is shorter then the other or one has trouble moving in the normal fashion ,
'' i am reminded of a particular student at school who is mentally challanged , so he has trouble understanding complicated phrases but trains harder then anyone i know ,non stop from begining to end , i have to teach him through feel and experience , i have to adapt to his ability to learn , the amazing thing is , he is rapidly improveing , he makes things work for him ,in his mind ''
he inspires me and reminds me to not get to lost in the details , but to live the experience

[[is it really a trap anymore? Or do you do what is necessary to swim?]]]

that my friend is the million dollar question, and when do you really know the answer


savi
[[Ernie, I agree with nearly everything you said - aside from your beliefs about concepts and theories. I think if we had some examples of a concept or theory from both sides, we might find a common ground.]]

we are walking the ground now

:)

[Savi]

Though I hardly see myself at the level of a wizard, that does make me laugh! Have you seen the extended version of the Two Towers? The theater version pales in comparison.

Legolas:
"HFY? Shall I describe it to you, or would you prefer a box?"

Gimli:
"Hehehehe...."

[Savi]

Originally posted by Ernie
[[is it really a trap anymore? Or do you do what is necessary to swim?]]]

that my friend is the million dollar question, and when do you really know the answer Like your story. Though I would like to venture a guess as to the answer to the million dollar question... money can also ruin your life! J/K!

You know when you get thrown in the water. "Sink or swim."

I see martial art styles like lakes. If you can swim to the other side and make it, you'll know and appreciate it much greater. If you can't, stay in the shallow end until you have enough curiosity to find out more about yourself and swim deeper.

Could be right or wrong, but that's my final answer.

[Ernie]

savi
[[Could be right or wrong, but that's my final answer]]

survey says --- long tensioned filled pause ---- ding ding
if the answer is right for you then it is right !
just like martial arts :)

[anerlich]

I'd ask if you could leave those type of comments off this thread at least... please

Well, I'm getting sick of this too, so OK. I did find your last remark rather patronising, however. I used to jump down Hendrik's throat with both feet whenever he tried to pull his Zen Master script on me too, so don't feel singled out.

Some of my friends and I were mixed up with people that used to pull all that stuff on us for their own evil ends in my youth, so I have a VERY short fuse for that sort of thing. Read my "False Prophet" article on wingchunkuen.com and you'll see where I'm coming from.

Peace. Have fun and learn in Arizona. I hope HFY and you prosper.

None of this matters a schmick anyway in the larger scheme of things.

I've read LOTR, but seen none of the movies. Jeez, I haven't even seen the second Matrix yet. Has the fift Star Wars been released? I only just got around to watching the fourth on DVD the other day.

[Savi]

Originally posted by PaulH
One question. What are the ten bright points? Hopefully you can help my light bulb burn a little brighter here? You know Paul, even though this question was posed in the first page, and answered very briefly by a few (myself included)... I asked myself if the answers provided really answered the question. Just the phrase "Wing Chun Formula" didn't really answer what those 10 points are.

To make it kinda simple (for a basic understanding of course) using addition,

3 Centers (heighth) + 5 Lines (width) + 2 Line Jong Sau (Depth) = 10 points which describe the appropriate amount of space (all three dimensions) in relation to your body frame.

3 Centers (heighth)
1. the high ref pt in the HFY system is the nose region.
2. the mid ref pt in the HFY system is the solar plexus.
3. the low ref pt in the HFY system is three finger widths below the navel. These 3 centers are fixed along the body's C/L only.

5 Lines (width)
1. The C/L of the body, the axis of symmetry, is 1 of the 5 lines.
2. Each shoulder joint constitutes 2 of the 5 lines.
3. The last 2 lines of the 5 Line Concept are centered between the other 3 lines in #1 & 2. This gives you the complete width of the 6 gates of HFY.

2 Line Jong Sau (depth)
1. The lead arm is at near full extention from the body on the C/L, save for an inch or two left for flex.
2. The inside hand position is one forearm length behind the lead wrist on the C/L also. These two together, coupled with the positioning of both elbows on the Yin Lines, provides optimized usage of the inner and outer doors for stability and (because of the symmetrical distribution of the joints according to the 5 Line Concept) balanced functionality.

The following diagram, which uses figures also illustrated in the Mastering Kung Fu book, is listed below for a visual Paul H. Hope this helps you?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Savi:

Congratulatons...You're most recent post giving lots of detail about the 3 centers, 5 lines, and 2 line jong sau - along with the diagram from the book -

is the first time that I've seen anything on this forum that serves to TRULY explain (in a way that doesn't degenerate into zen master esoterica)...what the HFY formula is about.

Keep up the good work !

[[Censored]]

IF HFY implementations must flow from the HFY formula, and
IF the low reference point is adjacent to the navel,
THEN how do you defend the important areas off your map? ;)

P.S. A little bit of trivia--to those in the know, the area three fingers under the navel is referred to as the _false_ dantien...at least if you are standing up. :)

[PaulH]

Okay, I got it! Thanks, Savi! You're right in that I do think visually. I maybe herbal but definitely not very verbal-oriented thinking person.

Regards,

PH

[Phil Redmond]

Thanks for the post. It was another example of how HFY and TWC are similar. We also have the 8 gate theory, though there may be others that have it also.

[Savi]

Originally posted by [Censored]
IF HFY implementations must flow from the HFY formula, and
IF the low reference point is adjacent to the navel,
THEN how do you defend the important areas off your map? ;) What off-map areas are you referring to? Based on your last post, I can only guess of two possible areas you might be talking about, 3 possible scenarios:

1. Outside the box (from the diagram)...
If you can see from the diagram in my last post, the HFY six gates are directly in front of the body. So how does one deal with attacks from outside (left and/or right side) the gates? To me, this is an issue of Facing, and in HFY there are two concepts that aide in identifying the moment of facing. When your opponent is positioned to the side of you, whether it be the dead/blindside or live/inside, but not in front of you... it could be referred to as "shadow facing". In other words, they are only visible from your peripheral field of vision, and the attacks come from that same area. HFY refers to this moment in time as Mo Ying Da Yeng (no shape, hit shadow).

When an attack is delivered from any side (laterally) of the six gates, you must address the need to gain your facing in order to deal with the opponent. Some of the methods used to accomplish this are in HFY's Kiu Sau development. In the MKF book, this is illustrated (photos) in chapter 7 on page 135, beginning the discussion with Chi Kiu training. What it basically entails, is that when you do not have proper six gate facing, you must sweep the high, middle, and/or low areas while engaging the opponent (kind of like "fishing" for the attack), aiming for a better position to deal with him/her. Once you have identified the position of the opponent, you can more accurately employ your strategy and tactics.

2. Lower Gate attacks...
If you are referring to the area below the low reference point, any attack (non-grappling) in that area is dealt with by the legs - whether it be by footwork for manuvering or kicking/delfecting with the legs.

3. Opponent is head on, delivers an outside attack...
If your opponent is still out of trapping range (where you are not close enough to trap his/her elbow to their body), you must be mindful of curved attacks. Since you are at this distance, anything is still dangerous. So positioning is still important to address. In HFY footwork, I am being trained (currently) to stay aligned to the outside position of his/her leading side whist remaining targeted on the centerline position with the hands (generally speaking). By taking such an alignment, this forces the opponent to use greater space to launch an assault, hence making the movements telegraphed. (As an example, look at the cover photo of the MKF book) This also requires him/her to have greater recovery time from the attack. When executing the counter offensive, you should penetrate the closest side and into trapping range. this should cause him/her to lose the forward initiative, thus putting them on mere defense.