Expression of Tam Tui?

[SmallAssassin]

Hi,

I have seen two translation of Tam Tui both seeming to have different expression: SPRING legs or SNAPPING legs.

SPRING legs seems to be more bouncy in its expression, while the other way is snappy, like sharp, twiting movements.

Is either way right or wrong, or are they both just different ways of doing it?

[ngokfei]

This set has many versions so does the translation of its name:

The term "Spring" has become a universal translation for the form
Really has to do with where the set comes from because the meaning can be interpreted to mean spring or snap depending on the level of the kick found in most of the roads/rows.

The Chin Woo version actually is called Lung Tan Tui or Dragon Pond Leg named after the temple of its origin.

Find the essence of your set and that will tell you which interpretation of the name best suits your set/routine

[rik]

There are basically three different interpretations for 'tan' as it is used in Tan Tui. Each connected to a version of the forms origin.

The first, as a noun, means pond and refers to the place of its origins - a monastery near Shaolin Si called Long Tan Si and connects the form to monk Hsuan Kung. The second as a verb meaning to snap, This version is advocated by Islamic practitioners and is connected to Kun Lun. Kun Lun was a character in a story written by Tuan Cheng Shih. A similar story was also written by Deng Yen Chi entitled Mo Kun Lun Chuan. In this story Kun Lun (Blackamoor) was a pork butcher. Hardly a Moslem in this case :-)))) The third version (supported by the Shaolin tradition I practice), Tan is a Chinese surname and the set was propagated by a Shaolin master named Tan Xing.

r.(shaolin)

[David Jamieson]

tan tui-

it means "springing (rebounding) leg"

tan also means "deep water" but more like a lake and less like a pond.

tan tui in terms of kungfu set, when searched in pin yin turned up the attached.

cheers

[rik]

I think you've got the wrong Chinese character
for the pinyin 'tan' when it is used in reference to the Ten Routine Spring Leg.
Although the correct character referes to springing, it does not suggest rebounding but flicking or shooting as with a catapult.

When the character 'tan', referring to beach or sand, is used the reference is to Lung Tan Si (monastery) located in Honan province. This monastery's name derives from the small lake or pond called Lung Tan that is in its vicinity.

r.

[David Jamieson]

rik,

i got the only one out of 7 versions of the character "tan" that made any sense.

it is the same tan as in

tanxing - flexibility
or tanhuang - rebounding

but i do understand the meaning in relation to water. however, it is not "pond".

I originally posted that I had though it was "seeking", but i was wrong and found out that it is literally "springing leg"

tantui is mandarin whereas the cantonese, is more sounding like "tomtoy". Anyway, it is difficult to find a good cantonese dictionary that is standardized, and so, pinyin will have to do and mandarin will have to suffice. :)

the rest of the iterations of "tan" make no sense in the dictionary and a lot have references to "hand" and "tank" as in battle tanks "tan ke" (nasty those phonetics again) and surprisingly enough, many of the other idoegram combos that use tan generally come out in the form of "greed and want" I hardly think those are related to the form in any of it's iterations.

anyway, there is a great resource online for finding pretty much any word or word combo from english to chinese.

Go to http://www.zhongwen.com

cheers

[rik]

Hi Kung Lek

Actually zhongwen.com has many errors.

kind regards,
r.

[David Jamieson]

Hi Rik.

Not being a native chinese speaker and quite admittedly being a beginner in both mandarin and cantonese, i wouldn't be aware that a site was with or without errors.

Zhongwen is a transliteration site more than a translation site, so I wouldn't say it was rife with error. But I also know enough that it would be unwise to say it was without error entirely.

Between that and my books and language tapes, I would still have to go with "springing leg" for the literal translation of Tan tui.

cheers

[rik]

Kung luk, my interest in this has more to do with form's history.
I would be interested in Northernshaolin’s thoughts on this and have him correct me on the Jingwu version.

From what I understand the Shanghai Jingwu’s Tantui was called Long Tan Tui Shi Er Lu. Their story/history of the the form goes goes something like this. A monk named Hsuan Kung who was a resident of Lung Tan Monastery located in Shantung province, formulated this 12 set exercise. According to this tradition, monk Hsuan Kung had studied the martial arts at Shaolin Monastery. This is why the Jingwu story connects the form to Shaolin. According to Dr. Hu, formerly of Standford University, no such monastery has been found in Shantung. He does says however, there is a Lung Tan Monastery in Honan province.

The association I am apart of operated in Shanghai during the same time period as the Jingwu (early 1900’s) also practiced a 12 section Tan Tui. Their history of the set goes something like this:
A 10 section set was developed sometime during the 1700’s (Qing Dynasty) by a lay student who at one time had studied at Shaolin monastery. Eventually this form was reintroduced to Shaolin and the monks there made certain changes to the form, added two sections and named the set after the person that originally developed it.
r.

[David Jamieson]

Hey Rik.

I have been of the understanding that Tan Tui is a Chinese muslim Kungfu set.

Not sure if it is related to Cha, but it certainly fits the look and feel of both Cha and BSL.

I had not heard of it being from either a taoist or buddhist temple but rather that it was a Hui muslim military kungfu set.

I was also of the understanding that it was Ku yu-cheong who brought the ten road tan tui into the prelim sets of North Shaolin Kungfu.

I had not been aware of the other stories you have here.

Interesting. Thanks.

Cheers

[NorthernShaolin]

Kung Lek,

It is unfortunately that the most popular belief is the Chinese Muslims developed Tan T'ui and really it is a mis-conception in the western world.

r. is correct in his version of Tan T'ui's history. This is what I've read in the old Chinese martial arts documents and was told by the many 'Old Dragons' who have since passed away.

Chinese Muslim like to take credit for it but they only were only care-takers of the style in the 1700's until its popularity grew again and became intergrated into many Northern styles as part of their curriculum.

It was not Kuo Yu Chang who brought Tan Tui to BSL's curriculum. His father first taught it to him but failed to finish teaching more BSL because of his untimely death. KYC's second teacher taught Tan T'ui to him again before teaching him BSL. So Tan T'ui was already part of the BSL's curriculum in the late 1800's.

Tan T'ui is not related to Ch'a style at all. However, like many Northern styles, Ch'a style intergrated not only Tan T'ui, but also some of sets from Pao Chuan and Hua Chuan into their curriculum in the late 1700's.

[rik]

...........................................
Kung Lek wrote:
I have been of the understanding that Tan Tui is a Chinese muslim Kungfu set.Not sure if it is related to Cha, but it certainly fits the look and feel of both Cha and BSL.I had not heard of it being from either a taoist or buddhist temple but rather that it was a Hui muslim military kungfu set..
...........................................
As per my earlier post, the 10 section Tan Tui with the character for springing/snap/project is associated with Cha Quan and Islamic Chinese practitioners in Northwestern China where it was populular. The story of this version centers on a
Hui native who came from Xinjiang.

...........................................
Kung Lek wrote:
I was also of the understanding that it was Ku yu-cheong who brought the ten road tan tui
into the prelim sets of North Shaolin Kungfu.
.............................................
Again I would be interested in Northernshaolin's
take on this, but I understand that it was Chao Lien-ho and his younger brother Chao Lien-cheng that were the main advocates for this set in Jingwu. In fact it was Chao Lien-ho wrote the first book on the 12 section version. This version is connected to Long Tan Si
r.

[NorthernShaolin]

r.

Your right again on Chao Lin Ho and his brother about Tan T'ui.. In fact they are credited as to be the first ones to bring Tan T'ui to the open public with the publishing of the 12 row Tan T'ui book.

Another word about Ch'a and Muslims, is that Chinese Muslims are a regarded as a minority in China and as part of their identity and contribution to the society, they encouraged the belief that they contributed something to the country's history.

[NorthernShaolin]

Kung Lek,

I just open your attachment on the characters for Tan T'ui and r. is correct in say you do have the wrong Chinese characters.

[David Jamieson]

Interesting stuff guys thanks. :)

Northernshaolin, after rik referred to you, i went to your site to see what you had there regarding tan tui.
It is mentioned as part of curriculum (12 road) but there isn't the history of it there. Is there?

I am interested in what you say about how the Muslim kungfu was caretaker of the set for a period. i madethe reference to cha purely from external look and similarity in cha style motion and that which we find in tan tui (10 road). I am looking at Cha book now and I still see many of the motions from tan tui in the style throughout many of it's sets.

Rik-
When you say Honan province, do you mean hunan or henan? some people call one or the other honan. Specifically I am asking if it is same province as Shaolin si is located? Or is it the other?

It is difficult to discern which temples existed and didn't exist even today. What with the Chinese civilization being the oldest continuous unbroken civilization on earth, there is quite a lot of revisionism going on with some of teh deatils in regards to historical facts. I think that will always be a bump in trying to figure out the facts about a great deal of things.

NS-

How did the muslim peoples of north western china become caretakers of Tan tui and become associated with its development so strongly?


Thanks to both
cheers
also thanks for clearing up about KYC's teachers of the set.

[rik]

.................................
Kung Lek wrote:
When you say Honan province, do you mean hunan or henan? some people call one or the other honan. Specifically I am asking if it is same province as Shaolin si is located? Or is it the other?
.................................

Yes I am referring to Henan the province were
Shaolin Si stands.
r.

[NorthernShaolin]

Kung Lek,

Similar moves will be found between Tan T'ui and Ch'a as well as the other northern styles like Hua and Wah. They share the same principles except are expressed differently which gives them their unique flavor.

Well there are many stories of how Tan T'ui originated but they all share a common theme that the style was not developed by Muslims nor was it created at Shaolin. However Tan T'ui made its way to Shaolin Si and then left the Shaolin Si some years later. As we all know Shaolin Si was a depository of various styles through time and different styles came and some left their footprint at the Shaolin while other styles came and left nothing.

Tan T'ui was one of those styles that was introduced at one time and then disappeared. (No specific dates are given) We know that monks specialized in certain styles and as they left the Shaolin Si to the countryside they took their particular speciality with them. Monks actually taught their skills to the common people in exchange for food and shelter and hence this is how Muslums in the Northwestern part of China ended up as caretakers of Tan T'ui.

Ch'a style has a similar story of how soldiers of General Huo Zong Qi in the Tang Dynasty who were station in the far northern borders of China, exchanged martial knowledge with the locals (Chinese Muslims) who fell in love with this style.

[MasterKiller]

Similar moves will be found between Tan T'ui and Ch'a as well as the other northern styles like Hua and Wah. What style are you calling "Wah"?

[NorthernShaolin]

Wah is one of the five mother northern styles;i.e., Ch'a, Hua, Pao , Hung and Wah. Some dictionaries use Hua. I use Wah (based on Wade dictionary system) to separate the two Hua.

[MasterKiller]

So when you say "Hua," you mean flower boxing, and when you say "Wah," you mean the style founded by Hua Zongqi? Or did you mean the other way around?

[NorthernShaolin]

NP,

Yes, Hua for Flower which Huo Zong Qi is credited but he originally taught a style called Large Frame Fist. This style split into two styles: Hua and Ch'a. His partner, Cha Yuan I, taught the second part of the split called Ch'a while Huo and his disciples continued to teach Hua.

Wah style was founded by Ts'ai Mao, unrelated to Hua and Ch'a and the Ts'ai family have been the caretakers of this style. At one time this style had 48 hand sets but currently only 12 hand sets exit today.

All three styles developed during the Tang Dynasty.

[David Jamieson]

Thanks NS! :)

cheers

[MasterKiller]

NS,

Hua (Flower) boxing was founded by Gan Fengchi in the Qing Dynasty.

I was under the impression that the Hua style attributed to Hua Zong Qi is sometimes referred to as "China-Style" boxing or "Hua Family" boxing; at any rate, I do not believe it is the same as Flower Boxing.

Any ideas?

[NorthernShaolin]

MK,

Well when I look at the Chinese Characters: Wah style is sometimes refer to China Style. Hua Zong Qi's style is refered to Flower Style and uses the Chinese character for Flower.

As for Keng Feng Chih (Gan Feng Chi) wrote several books about his style, Hua (Flower). Some credit him as being the creator of Flower fist or Hua Chuan. But that is not the case because he had two Monk teachers, Pa Zhou and Chao Yuan Ho who taught him Pao and Hua Chuan.

Also history shows that Keng Feng Chih was quickly identified as a rebel by the Ching government and he, along with his followers and his son, were executed. It is record that he had no disciples to pass his knowledge because all of his followers were eliminated. It is a good thing that he was not the only student of Hua Chuan. It is record that there was one non monk disciple and classmate of KFC who escaped Shaolin shortly after Keng Feng Chih was excuted. I cannot remember his name right now but he continued to teach Hua CHuan to others, even though he did not complete his studies in Hua Chuan.

[MasterKiller]

NS,
You surely know more about the history than I do, but Flower Boxing only has 5 forms still being practiced (4 open-hand and 1 weapon).

The other Hua, to my knowledge, has 10 sets still being practiced.

If this is correct, they cannot be the same style.

[NorthernShaolin]

Mk,

Sure sound like they are not. I'm aware of the Hua Chuan four sets not sure about the other one, Hua 10 set. Is the Chinese character the same as Flower?

[MasterKiller]

I don't read Chinese, which is partially why all this is so confusing to me sometimes. To my knowledge, these are the surviving forms from Flower Fist:

24 Posture Fist
36 Posture Fist
Stretching Fist
Running Tiger Fist
Ox Heart Spade (weapon form)

Hua Zongqi's style was originally called Jiazi Quan, and was at one time blended with Cha style, then separated out again later, correct? Are you saying that this is the same as Flower boxing, as taught by Gan Fengchi? If so, that is very interesting.

[NorthernShaolin]

MK,

Yes that is what my research has indicated.

However, you mentioning the Hua style with 10 sets has caught my interest. (a light clicks on here). So I dug up some old documents and this is what I found. I should have suspected this but really did not give it any thought until you mention Hua style with 10 sets.

What I found is that Hua (Flower) style actually has three branches like Ch'a style. Unlike Ch'a style which specifically names their branches, i.e., Yang, Chang and Li, Hua's branches does not have specific names.

Hua style's history really parallels Ch'a style in that both started during the Tang Dynasty, share the same regional area origin and was one of the most popular styles that was at one time widely taught to the masses. Given that both styles were very popular and the length of the development period time of the style, there is no doubt that Hua style developed branches of it own style.

Although I have not observe sets from two of the branches of Hua, I have observed all three branches of Ch'a sets. Even though the three branches of Ch'a share the same names for their sets, there were some differences between Yang and Chang branches. One can tell that the two branches were related because they still shared the some of the same sequences of moves and same direction while still having slight deviations and variations. However, comparing the Li branch to the other two branches, this branch was like a complete overhaul.

I know at this point it is speculation, but it would seem logical tha Hua would follow the same path in branching subsets as Ch'a in its development.

Exactly which branch of Hua style that Gan Feng Chi knew is a good question but what ever it was, it appears it does go back to Hua Zong Qi.

Anyway, thanks for clicking on the light for me.

[MasterKiller]

Wow. That's some good information. Thanks!

[Scythefall]

We're taugt Tan Tui as "Springing Legs" at my school, which makes the most sense given the way the set moves. I was amazed at the effectiveness these had in lowering my stances.

The first 3 roads where you do series of blocking the lead knee and then shifting into a side punch really did wonders for adding crispness to Lohan Fist and Shaolin 6 when I was first learning them. Even though your feet never leave the ground, the constant shifting from a bow stance to a horse stance and the waist twisting just somehow made me lighter on my feet.

Yet as helpful as they are, I can't for the life of me remember to do them at home when I practice.

[kai men]

Thanks a lot to all who have made contributions to this discussion, I have indeed learnt a lot from this.
I would make a question, abussing from your patience:
What about the version that states that there were 24 roads originally? I have seen in a video, some people from Shaolin Temple performing what seems to be a very primitive version of Shaolin Tam Tui with 24 lines.
Kindest Regards
horacio

[rik]

This is the story that has been passed on for many generations by our ancestors. Briefly it goes like this. Venerable Zhi Shan of Shaolin Monastery created the fighting style called Hua Quan at Shaolin. At the time the fighting methods of Hua Quan were seen as an advancement in combat techniques. Among Zhi Shan’s students there were ‘lay’ Buddhists who learned the art. During the later part of the Ming period Hua Quan art fell into disrepute because of scandal and was no longer practiced at Shaolin. During the Ching period Shaolin monks brought back this art formulating two sets: Hua Quan and Hua Quan Shuang Quan. At that time however, the name was changed from Hua (flower) Quan to Hua (transformed) Quan. Both Chinese characters sound the same and look very close to each other but have different meanings. Later in the Ching period the name Hua Quan was changed back to Hua meaning ‘flower.’

Re: Tan Tui
In our school Tan Tui and Hua Quan are not connected nor does Tui Tui have a two-man version.
We do however have a set, past on from the old generations, that is considered Tui Tui’s advanced set called Liu Lu Ying Quan (Six Methods of Hard Punching).

r.

[MasterKiller]

Does anyone know what relationship Hua (transformed) boxing has to Hua (essence) boxing?

[GeneChing]

We just got a new video in - Hua Men Kung Fu (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/prdz002.html). The Chinese characters are on the box. ;)

[rik]

Gene wrote:
We just got a new video in - Hua Men Kung Fu. The Chinese characters are on the box.
....................................

Interesting. The chinese character on the box is the Hua that means 'transform/change'Quan. Shaolin Hua Quan incorporated five elements and eight tetragram stepping as does most higher level Shaolin marital arts (something Tan Tui does not). From the promo on the box it sounds like there is is some similaities.
r.

[Scythefall]

I don't quite understand what is meant by "higher level Shaolin martial arts." Can you explain what that means? We learn Bagua (Eight Trigram), Yang and Chen Tai Chi, Northern Shaolin, and 5 animals all side by side at my school, it's just a matter of what direction you want to take your training. What's a consideration for calling something a "high" art?

[rik]

......................
We learn Bagua (Eight Trigram), Yang and Chen Tai Chi, Northern Shaolin, and 5 animals all side by side
...............................

wow! I'm impressed.
...............................
Re: foundational training.
Tan Tui is not an art unto itself, it is a form/set and is generally considered foundational training exercise. This has nothing to do with superiority of an art. Actually you can develop in to a superior fighter knowing just Tan Tui.
r.

[Scythefall]

yeah, i wasn't trying to argue or anything, I was just curious what was meant by a higher art. I tore my hamstring (doing a basic pancake stretch of all things) and I focused on Yang and Chen Tai Chi for the two months I had to heal up from the tear. I learned alot about just tying all movements together, but when it came time to start up Shaolin again it was like I'd been sitting home and watching TV on the couch. I was doing some exercises with the Bagua guys as well, because they overlap into the Chen and Yang classes and I was just curious because I know that Bagua is a bit more combative. It was very intense concentration-wise but because I only had the limited exposure, I didn't quite get a sense of power from it. It seemed more internal. I certainly understand the importance of Chi and tying movements together but for those that don't do the internal arts, we also practice our forms traditionally. It goes something like :

1. Perform the form paying particular attention to your breathing.
2. Perform the form with as much power as you can muster, so much that you lose control of the form.
3. Then practice the form to correct the movements.

Even doing this with Tan Tui has been extremely useful, because I'm one of those people that tends to hold his breath for large portions of forms so opening up with a slow breathing version of the form gives me a chance to concentrate on that issue.

[David Jamieson]

Well, fwiw, my personal view is that "higher art" can be the simplest form from any style, but with absolute correct expression on all levels.

Higher art transcends and goes beyond mere techniques and sequences. In fact, to get to the point of really high art, it often means leaving behind all you have learned and creating something entirely new.

Afterall, the artist is the one who creates. The ones who show that artists work are students and curators of "an" art, but to make "art" is entirely different.

cheers

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by Scythefall
I don't quite understand what is meant by "higher level Shaolin martial arts." Can you explain what that means? We learn Bagua (Eight Trigram), Yang and Chen Tai Chi, Northern Shaolin, and 5 animals all side by side at my school, it's just a matter of what direction you want to take your training. What's a consideration for calling something a "high" art?

'High Art' means taking everything you have learned from your Sifu and making sure you understand it inside, outside, backward, foreward, up, down...and then take that and make it work for yourself self-defense wise, mentally wise and spiritually wise.
An 'art' becomes high level when the person who has learned it from his Sifu, retains it, and thoroughly understands it, practises it and makes it part of himself.

GHD

[GeneChing]

To me, high art is the 'fu' in Kung Fu. It's the trancendence, when the moment of expression becomes something greater, something divine. It's the art part, really. I guess that echos KL a bit. But it can be very simplistic too - and subjective. If you just study Tantui, as rik suggests, that can not only make you a good fighter, it can attain 'fu'. For example, many painters in China just specialize on one subject - flowers, tigers, fish, horses, landscapes, whatever - but that's all they do, just the one. Compare that to someone like Dali, who paints melted watches, flaming giraffes, cruxifictions and Gala's butt. Both attain fu. And who was Dali's sifu? No one really. Fu is really intangible in that sense - very subjective - but he who feels it, knows it. ;)

As for the new Hua Men video, I haven't seen it yet. I'll have to take a look (once I get through all the rest of the stuff on my desk).

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by GeneChing
To me, high art is the 'fu' in Kung Fu. It's the trancendence, when the moment of expression becomes something greater, something divine. And who was Dali's sifu? No one really. Fu is really intangible in that sense - very subjective - but he who feels it, knows it. ;)

Hi Gene,

Thats true...it is when you have mastered the knowledge and techniques of whatever art you have chosen and then transcend that to go beyond mere technique and knowledge...I would compare the process similar to Chan. But if you forsake what you have been taught when you are only a quarter to half way down the road and expect to reach the mountain top...you probably will not make it...without the guidence and instruction of your Sifu.
As for Dali...he had to learn the basics and I would say advanced techniques from someone!...that person would be his Sifu.

My Sifu would always ask me if I 'Have it yet'...I would say "have what Sifu?" He would reply "You will know it when you have it"...He was right!

GHD

[David Jamieson]

With a nod to Alexander Levintov -
To understand the nature of mastery...

One could observe these three crucial educational processes: enlightenment (transferal of knowledge as the basis of thought), upbringing (values and cultural mores as the basis for behavior) and training (acquisition of skills for practical activities).

Naturally, the results of the aforementioned processes will remain:
-art as a product of enlightenment,
-will as a product of upbringing
-technical skills as a product of training,

while the most important combination of these results will be mastery in art and art in mastery, expertise (a combinination of skill and will) and virtuosity (the combination of will and art).

The critical change in the educational process will be the exchange of educational functions and the deconstruction of knowledge down to its “informational essence,” where knowledge is indistinguishable from facts and as easily accessible.

The aforementioned fundamental changes will lead to the following consequences:

Education will be transformed from a weapon and object of power into power itself.

It is the masters and virtuosos who make the connections and exchanges within the construct of what they have learned intellectually and what they have learned through applying that knowledge.

These connections can only come from within the individual, hence GHD's "do you have it yet? you will know when you have it"

One thing I'm sure of is that you cannot acquire ALL of the knowledge of any of the processes and can only internalize that which you can internalize. You cannot be the most socially moral person, you cannot be the most skilled person and you cannot be the most knowledgable person, but you can with what you have attain a form of mastery of self through the combination of your cumulative art, will and technical skills.

You can learn a form in and out, back and forth and even have expression correct in terms of the shape and the essence as you have learned. So, it is a cumulative process followed by an exchange of the results of several processes that are seemingly unrelated which bring personal mastery into the equation.

When that happens, new expression becomes the result and this can be regarded as mastery.

cheers

[Fen]

Originally posted by GeneChing
To me, high art is the 'fu' in Kung Fu. It's the trancendence, when the moment of expression becomes something greater, something divine.

I Feel that Gene put it very well.
" Fu (http://www.team-fu.com) " meaning very skilled.

" Something divine " Ragz (http://www.team-fu.com) meaning old or aged with time.

" Moment of expression becomes something greater " Thats what is meant by Martial Artitst with Attitude™ (http://www.team-fu.com)

[GeneChing]

Did Tao of Wushu just use one of my posts to plug his site? Oh man, Jason, you're lifting my moves...

[Fen]

Na!! Ummmmmmmmmm ok you got me! But I get it from the king of plugs!! But it's not like TC will not be get some profit for it soon any how...

~Jason :D

[GeneChing]

...better you than the Weekly World News (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=26756&highlight=weekly+world+news)