New to Wing Chun... Got some questions

[Brithlor]

Hi, I started Tradition Wing Chun (Cheung lineage) about 8 months ago, but because of the distance between me and my sifu I can only train there about 2-3 times a month (I practice alot on my own though). Before I started (and still do) Kung Fu San Soo for almost 3 years, but I really enjoy Wing Chun and find it to be much more effective.

Anyway, I just had a few questions about Wing Chun:

1. I'm really confused about this lineage contraversy and what exactly sets the different lineages apart. It seems like every lineage besides TWC pivots on the balls of their feet when they shift stances... I'm sure there are people from both TWC and other lineages here so I'd just like to know why either way is done... I'd really like to know what are the main differences for those who have trained extensively in BOTH TWC and other WC lineages aswell...

2. Have you ever had to use Wing Chun in a real fighting situation ("on the street") and how well did it help you? Were you able to actually "block" (or guard/deflect) many punches, and did any moves not work very well, or not at all? I especially want to know if moves where you circle around outside of an attack (such as off of a roundhouse) using a heun sao or pak choon are effective in real combat. Also, has anyone ever used the TWC entry technique in self defense?

3. Whenever I practice a move such as a bong sao off of a round punch (moving the arm in a way so I'm on the outside instead of being in range of a second punch) or the bill sao/huen sao I can do those moves alright, but that's only because I'm working with a cooperating opponent. Whenever I spar with someone (who is defending AND attacking) it's nearly impossible for me to do any traps or move outside of a roundhouse punch (it gets pulled back to quickly), at what level should I be able to do moves like that effectively against a RESISTING partner?

4. Does anyone know where would be a good place to get a Wooden wing chun dummy from? I've searched all of the internet and found alot of dummies that LOOK like their made well, and at a decent price (600- 1200) but I'm just wondering if anyone knows of a better place than www.woodendummies.net. Also, if you got a dummy from that website above; is it good quality and worth the cost? Do WALL MOUNT Dummies have any disadvantages for training as opposed to the portable ones? (besides not being portable).

5. Anyone know of good exercises to develope speed or power in short range punches? I just punch (soft :p) objects repeatedly at short range, and do roll punches as quickly as possible holding 15 pound weights... Are there any other techniques that help with developing speed and short range power?

If anyone wants to answer any or all of these questions I'd really appreciate it. I'm really enjoying WC so far, and feel that what I have learned would definitely help me if I ever need to use it, but I still have some concerns about it.

Thanks :)

[EmptyCup]

1. The differences are hard to get into in this thread due to the number of other questions but do a search on it. There's one very very very long thread by ultimatewingchun that gets into all the details of this as well as the stories surrounding the issue. Key thing is to look at the VT side of things and not blindly accept the TWC version. Keep an open mind and avoid being brainwashed (by either side).

2. Wing chun usually works well in a real fight situation b/c of the fast hands and aggressive nature. The punches are direct and powerful. Most untrained fighters will not be able to deal with this. As for the trained ones, at the distance fights usually start, the wc person has an advantage to win as well. Sparring however, is a different story due to the difference in distance and env't as well. Ex is club or in a lineup at the cinema compared to a open mat floor. In real fights you cannot hope to always block everything. Main blocks you do is biu, tan, maybe pow if you up close. Then come gang, gum, pak. Not to many cases where you'd use other hands. Huen I doubt will be used often. For roundhouses I block low ones with legs and mid range ones with seung ha gang or a pak with a gang. If I can move to avoid it I will. Most don't kick in real fights that way only thing they do is raise the leg when you rush them or try half-a$sed front kicks. The TWC entry you mean jumping in? Yes I have done that. Works well against ppl who never seen it before but those who do can kick the knee down as you jump in.

3. Always try to biu a hook punch. If you're really close you can pow it. I do not what you mean by huen on a hook since that seems very strange. Don't worry so much about "trapping" Those traps you train hardly get opportunities to be used in real situations. Think more about effieciency. Block hit. Block, then hit. Trying to trap hooks is wasting time. Same for jab/cross. ARms get retracted so better to punch after the block.

4. I know TWC likes using teak for the dummies. I personally think teak is a weak wood to use and thin. Wall is better than others b/c most portables or doorway ones lack a good length and a good "leg". Also you want your dummy to be the right height and to be able to hit it with force and force in the stance. With non-wall ones that is compromised. Wall ones also allow the dummy to have nice resistance and be "alive" in bouncing back due to the supporting wood slats.

5. You can get really fast by doing air punching especially if you keep your hands open/or close them only upon completion of the punch. There are those who say that can hurt you as in hyp. extension but many have been fine so far. Your choice. The most important thing is bag punching anyways to develop power.


All fast replies done in 5 min so no editing. If i say sth that sounds stupid blame that :) Hope these quick replies helped since nobody took the time to answer you yet...


EC

[Brithlor]

Thank you VERY much for the great answers!

I ACCEPT Tradition Wing Chun... I don't see any problem with that... If I didn't I would be too critical of what I'm learning to really asborb what I need to know... HOWEVER, if a closer school of wing chun appeared that had a competent teacher I would most likely go to that one instead... Regardless of wheither or not its Tradition Wing Chun. I personally prefer the TWC movements, as they're more similiar to what I've done before... But by no means do I have any complaints with the other wing chun lineages as I have not ever really experianced it.

I'm alittle confused about some of the terminology you used though... what exactly is a "pow"? A "gang"? I don't think I do that in my wing chun... or else I just haven't gotten that far yet :).

Also, what I mean for a heun vs a round house is to first bock it with a bill sao, then circle around with the same hand (heun sao I believe :)) to pin their elbow for a second to get a quick punch to the head or get them off balance... My teacher seems like he'd be able to do it in a fight... But I'm only basing that off of how fast he can do it... Has anyone actually used that technique before? In a real fight that is.

The only traps I can do with some success are are vs multiple straight punches where you use a fook sao for the first and a lop sao for the second (with the other hand) while holding onto the lop-ed hand... Other than that I can't really pull off any other traps when sparring... Should I not even worry about traps at all then?

I noticed you didn't include either paks or bong saos in your list of blocks... is that your personal choice, or are they really not effective in combat? The most natural reactions for me are to pak right roundhouse punches when I have my right hand forward and to bill sao left round houses when my right hand is forward (obviously reversed when I have my left hand forward :)). I really like using pak saos for straight punches, but it seems like not many people attack with punches straight enough to be pak-ed...

The wooden dummy I was thinking about getting said it was made of red oak I believe... Is that a good wood in your opinion?

Thanks for the replies every, especially EmptyCup for the quick response :D.

[namron]

Dont worry about the politics it will only drag your training down. Concentrate on the skills, many families of WC have differences but this does not necessarily make them any more or less effective, a lot will depend on whether the style or lineage is right for you.

Phil Redmond may be able to help you more if your interested in the specific differences as he has trained more than one lineage of WC.

Dont have too many stories to tell you, although some years ago I used to moonlight with a mate doing security gigs for functions etc. The few encounters that happened ended quickly as the we watched each others back and were able to talk down, or break the guys balance and drag him out (rear choke). Best thing for that as empty cup said is be direct, have your hands in front of you (open gesture) and have a trigger rather than waiting to be hit. Like I said I'm a bit older and quieter now and dont have many war stories to share anyhow.

I'm not particulary fond of cross arm blocks (ie: right side block to opponents rh strike), this leaves a large hole in your guard that can be exploited. I prefer more simplistic same arm same side blocking and countering. The only use I see in the cross arm blocks (based on training not reality) are:

1. where your your opponent overcommits with a rear arm strike, to take balance from the outside.

2. to bridge to blind side after a stop kick when outside exchange range.

3. Where you've stuffed up and need an option.

The cross arm bong or huen move are not well suited to sparring IMO because they are indirect and the opponent in sparring is often not fully committed or as stated retracts quickly to continue sparing.

[Brithlor]

Thanks for the reply!

I won't get too caught up in the politics of wing chun... but its still something I'm confused about, especially how the differences occured...

So you also agree that traps aren't very effective?

you say the bill/huen and cross bong sao aren't suited for sparring... but are they for actual combat?

It seems like If I just step back slightly and face the punch slightly, without actually moving my hands too much, then immediatly either do a side palm strike or a bill sao to deflect the next punch that it works pretty well... But I haven't ever actually used it in real fighting so I can't really say how well it works... just in sparring.


I guess my two main questions now are:

1. Where is a good place to get a wooden dummy?

and

2. Do bong saos vs round house punches and bill/heun sao versus round house punches actually work?

3. IF anyone feels like giving an in depth answer I'd appreciate some information abou the differences between TWC and other WC systems... Especially in the footwork differences.

Thanks again everyone! These answers are very helpful and appreciated :).

[Brithlor]

So if traps, cross arm blocks and moves that circle around the opponents arm after contact aren't really effective would you reccomend not to practice them?

Just curious, because so far alot of what I've been taught wouldn't be able to ever be used in street fight if that's the case, and makes me wonder what exactlly makes wing chun different than other forms of combat if so many techniques can't be utilized (half of the forms probably have no purpose if thats true).

Please continue with the very helpful responses...

[Stevo]

I don't know the TWC curriculum, but some of those things are probably meant for emergencies, or when your strike doesn't get through.

It's best to have a mindset of aiming straight for the centre (from front, side or whatever angle) and strike straight through and only divert when you can't get through (i.e. main purpose of chi sau). If you go by this philosophy, you wouldn't use a bong sau against a roundhouse punch, except as a last resort (i.e. you didn't see it coming earlier, it's now in your inner gate and you instinctively throw your arm up and pivot).

All the forms have purpose, but as I understand it and have been taught, for basic fighting, the first form and some footwork are the most important and most of the time you only need SNT and CK. The other forms refine concepts/build on them and teach how to deal with emergencies.

Testing what you learn from the forms (eg. through chi sau) will give you confidence in them and you'll find out what works best for you in different situations.

Cheers
Stevo

[EmptyCup]

I apologize as I used the terms without remembering you are new to the art. A “pow” is the high block right by your ear with the outer forearm. A "gang" is usually meant as the low slicing block with the outer forearm. There is also what is called a high gang which is a higher block but from the outside-in. If you learned siu leem tao you would most likely have learned the gang as most versions now have that in it. It replaced the jum that was taught in that section before. It comes in the second section after the fast tan sau.

If your teacher can pull off the biu-to-pin then he must be really good. For the majority of us that is too much movement to pull off correctly and it’s inefficient. When you say “pin” you mean the arm that’s doing the pinning is a bong sau right? If you want to see if it works have someone throw a hook at you and try to do it. Or even start with a hook already blocked and try to change into a pin with them resisting. Seems hard since the hook is so high and easily disengaged.

You will find that traps work better in the chi sau environment. Just b/c you hardly use them in free sparring or fights doesn’t mean you should not worry bout them…they have their uses in training you to feel and in reflexes. Also in the event that a situation does come up you can use them. Just that normally in a fight or sparring situation opportunities to use them do not often come up if at all.

I did list pak as a secondary block. I prefer not to use them but I have to against boxers since it’s the fastest way to cancel the straights/jabs. Generally I prefer blocks using a wider contact area such as the forearm compared to just the heel of the palm. However you CAN use the pak without blocking with the heel of the palm by using the wrist instead. As for bong, you’ll hardly use it. Unless it’s a low bong. Try to catch a hook with one and you’ll see what I mean.

If you can pull off the pak sau to right hooks when your right hand is forward that is good. However it would be better if you used your left to biu. Since you can biu a left punch you can biu a right one too with your left hand. Why cross arms when you don’t need to? That makes it hard for you to hit at same time too. If you biu you open the guy up more and it’s a safer block in any case in this situation. If you get in the habit of doing a pak across like that you set yourself up for fakes and combos to your open side. An example would be two hooks, one right followed by an immediate left. If you use your right hand to pak the right hook the left hook will be hard to block in sucession.

Another thing is by watching tapes of William and from what others say, it seems as if he favours what your sifu does…the whole going to the outer gates thing. TWC ppl seem not to like staying inside but rather go through steps to go to the outside so I do not want to confuse you. Do what your teacher teaches you for now and decide on your own later if you feel it’s the best way for you or not. Always try things out to see what’s best for YOU. Nobody can decide that better than yourself what you can pull of or not.

As for what namron said Phil is a good guy to ask in a PM if he doesn’t’ reply to this thread. Also what namron said is right…I usually do paks when I get “stuffed” and the guy is very in my face and it’s a flurry. They are faster to execute than the other blocks.

Practicing huen sau is good b/c it trains you to follow the hand with contact. As for street use hardly used. You’ll find you train a lot for what you don’t use but it’s good to have more to use than you need rather than less of what you may need correct? :) On a realistic level you are right in saying in terms of actual fighting wing chun doesn’t seem much different than other styles. However that is more of a exterior view. The philosophy behind it all is different. Things like chasing the shadow, facing the center, etc…


EC


P.S.

I noticed you say you did san soo before. Is this jimmy woo san soo if I recall his name correctly? Could you elaborate on what you think wing chun does better? San soo is more of an eclectic system that is more "do whatever in the moment" rather than scientific and structured correct? Or is this just the erroneous Inside Kung Fu summary of it?
:D

[jesper]

About the differences in WT.
You need to understand that WT is based on principles more than specific technics. Thats why we dont do scenario based training (he does A you do B, etc)
So after you have learned the "relatively" few technics, your supposed to develope your own interpretation of WT. That happens automaticly when your doing your forms, chi sao etc. Moreover people are different so one practicioner may prefere to use his/her hands in a situation where another would use his feet.

As for the efficiency of WT
There is no doubt about the efficiency of the WT principles. But you need to develope the proper skills in order to execute them. So if you want to be able to use WT in a fight you need to cross train with practitioners of other styles. You also need to train your stamina and do full contact sparring.
The stamina training is because when your about to enter into a confrontation you will start to become scared or anxious, which makes your adrenaline pumping. You will then feel your muscles getting heavy and puls will start pumping faster. Field studies of soldiers during extreme stress has shown them to function at as little as 40% of maximum efficiency, so obviously if your out of shape to begin with you will be out of breath very quickly.
Full contact sparring is because no matter how good a technician you become, you will get hit in a fight, and if your not used to that, you will freeze up for that split second which can make the difference. besides with full contact sparring you learn that you can fight on after being kicked in the private parts, although you dont have that long to finish him of ;)

[Brithlor]

Thanks so much everyone! I really hadn't expected to get so many kind and informative replies :)

I think I did the gang move before... I believe we call it a gan, thats why I was confused... I still don't quite understand what makes a pow different than a bill sao though :).

Yes, I did and still do San Soo (brought over by Jimmy Woo)... Most of what you hear about it will just be the normal rehtoric lines... San Soo has tons of great throws, sweeps and leverages, which helps cover some areas in my Wing Chun that I haven't learned.

There are alot of things I think it lacks compared to WC... You never actually even spar with it (atleast you're taught NOT to)... mainly because its supposed to be "too deadly". Also, in my opinion the blocks are much too slow to be used against a fast puncher, and they expose your face too often.... Obviously these are my OWN conclusions, and some San Soo people work around those areas, but in my opinion it doesn't really set you up as well as other martial arts to survive a confrontation...

I'm pretty sure that my sifu can do the elbow pinning moves off of a roundhouse... I mean, I never actually just randomly attacked him to see what he'd do... :p So I don't know for sure though. And yes, the move that I'm talking about is a cross bong sao where the contact with the round house is absorbed in between the Wu hand and the Bong hand... Then the bonging hand circles around right above the elbow to turn your opponent and then you step forward back into punching range. I have tried it with resisting opponents... but I can never pull it off fast enough... it might just be because my sparring partners try to pull their punches back much faster and with less follow-through than in a real fight... Maybe I just have to develope my skill and speed ****her...

I can use the double bill sao block against a round house fairly effectively though... the one where you do a right bill sao for a left punch, then another bill sao underneath your last bill sao to raise thier arm and move to the opponent's side.. But I still wonder if I'd be able to do that when someone is REALLY trying to attack me...

Anyway, thanks so much for all the replies, I was hoping to get a TWC perspective aswell, but everyone has been MORE than helpful :).

Please continue with answers and suggestions though, thanks...

[Brithlor]

hmm, strange swear word filter this forum has :p.

[EmptyCup]

pow absorbs the attack and doesn't really have force behind it

biu is an aggressive block that movies out to meet the attack.


pow is used for when you are really really close into the opponent and he throws a high punch such as a hook and you may not have room to biu.

then again there is also a biu that doesn't move too but it's interchangeable with pow. haha confusing I know...but for the most part when I say biu I mean the block that snaps the wrist area out horizontally. The pow is a vertical block with the arm making sortof a 90degree angle by your ear.

as for the bong, it works better with a tan and we call that kwun sau. Good for blocking kicks and aggressive long-arm attacks.

[namron]

If your going to try the bong against the roundhouse try not to stop the punch so much as deflect as your arm moves up into tan and drives down the central line. This will capture the elbow, aid in exposing the blind side by turning the opponent and the tan will provide protection/quicker reaction to deal with the rear arm.

If you completely stop the roundhouse punch with the bong/wu then IMO you've negated any advantage of using your opponents momentum and might as we half step in and larp the inside of the arm with the wu sau hand.

Both of the above scenarios may be able to be used against an strong over committed punch, but I do not believe they are much use in the sparing situation (as previously stated).

In sparing try to covering the lines of attack using simple same arm same side counters (pak, bil, larp). Quicker and much more direct.

[Brithlor]

Thanks again for the replies...

I think my problem with the bong/tan (or wu) combonation followed by the movement to to the outside is that I WAIT there to recieve to blow THEN move it...

I think my teacher does it more like what you are suggesting... I'll have to try it that way... Thanks for the suggestion there :).

Has anyone replied yet that uses Tradition Wing Chun? Although I really appreciate the other WC lineage replies alot of things are different from lineage to lineage obviously, so some things that work in one lineage for whatever reason may not work in another for whatever reason and vice versa...

I guess I'll PM Phil Redmond some questions if he doesn't reply here :).

Thanks again for the replies, and please continue with suggestions and answers...

[Stevo]

And yes, the move that I'm talking about is a cross bong sao where the contact with the round house is absorbed in between the Wu hand and the Bong hand... Then the bonging hand circles around right above the elbow to turn your opponent and then you step forward back into punching range. I have tried it with resisting opponents... but I can never pull it off fast enough...

That's 3 moves...maybe that's why you can't do it fast enough. Also, what about the opponent's other hand while you're doing this?


I can use the double bill sao block against a round house fairly effectively though... the one where you do a right bill sao for a left punch, then another bill sao underneath your last bill sao to raise thier arm and move to the opponent's side.. But I still wonder if I'd be able to do that when someone is REALLY trying to attack me...

Probably not...how do you cover yourself from a hit from their right hand while you're using both your arms on their left hand?

[Brithlor]

"That's 3 moves...maybe that's why you can't do it fast enough. Also, what about the opponent's other hand while you're doing this?"


I think the idea is to step back toward the punch and somewhat backwards so that the second punch misses...

I tried doing the bong sao the way someone mentioned above... It works a WHOLE lot better against a resisting opponent... It's a slight arm change, but it seems to make the opponent think hes going to get through your defense, instead of pulling back, which sets them up to be pinned at the elbow. I think I'd still get hit by the second punch but the movement seems to weaken the second punch alot as they're turning away from your body... I guess I'll just have to practice it more... it seems like it would work pretty good if done with proper stepping and speed.


"Probably not...how do you cover yourself from a hit from their right hand while you're using both your arms on their left hand?"

Well, this is one move I can do in sparring most of the time... The second bil sao also blocks the second punch. The second bil sao just kind of comes under neath the first punch, but ends where a normal left bil sao would be, except you're on their outside at the end of the movement.

I'd really like to hear some stories from people who had to use wing chun in a life threatening situation... and say how well or how poorly their techniques worked. I'd also like to hear some Traditional wing chun opinions about some of the things I asked; especially about the rotation hand blocks and the pak choons.

Thanks for the replies everyone, they have been very helpful :D.

[EmptyCup]

do a search on the whole real fight thing you're so keen on. You'll find that this subject has come up many times. I myself have started and participated in a few similar threads. In one of them I recount in detail when and how I used bong saus in real situations. If i recall correctly I started that one b/c I thought the high bong was not a very good block. The times I've used bong were medium and low height. Once (not in a real fight) I asked a friend to put all his force behind a high punch and really try to nail me. I attempted to bong it. The results were not too good :D

Also keep in mind that real fights don't mean much. You can win if you are decent sized and chain punch like hell the majority of the time. It's the full contact sparring or fighting against other well trained martial artists that tell you more about the style.

[Brithlor]

It's not that I'm "so keen on real fighting" but personal examples of "real fighting" would be very helpful to me...

I mean, if a master of wing chun (for example) can't pull off a fairly simple move on a drunk guy, then chances are I'm not going to have much better luck.

I don't plan on ever getting in the situation to use WC or other martial arts... And I suppose the real skill is AVOIDING those kind of confrontations in the first place.

But besides fun and exercise the only reason I take TWC is so that I can defend myself if need be. It doesn't have to be the end all be all martial art, or even the "best" one. I enjoy the movements of wing chun more than any other martial art I've tried or seen, so that simple fact will allow me to progress much faster and ****her than in a martial art that I did not like, even if it was a "superior" style.

But I would still like to know what I can really pull off, and what others have tried and succeeded in doing, and what didn't work. Not every situation is the same, but I'm just looking for an idea of what to expect when using wing chun in what it was designed for.

I don't particularly care about the sport aspect of martial arts, so the results in full contact fighting don't really help me as much as examples of what actually happened when a WC guy was trying to fight someone who was out to seriously hurt them, rob them, or worse... I'd just like examples of things like:

1. The most basic question: what level are you in WC and did the moves work?

2. What if anything were your opponent(s) armed with? What kind of attacks did they use?

3. Were there any place for moves like pak choons, double bil sao, heun sao, and cross bong sao that move to the opponent's blind side in that situation?

Thanks for the replies everyone... I guess I'm probably not going to get many answers in this thread either because I'm too new or ask too many questions... I'll do a search on the topics I want more detail one, but the searches always result in too wide of a range of unrelated topics.

[EmptyCup]

during your 3 years doing san soo did you ever get into a fight?

if you are looking for a good self defense system for everyday use I would think this is a good system to stick with. Like I said you may not use everything you train for but you can definitely use some. Many lean towards boxing, muay thai, ju jitsu. Those all have merits but if you are talking about (not cross training) one system for your needs then I think this would be it.


don't let the crappy martial arts clips or NHB losses deter you
:) wing chun has been used by many successfully as well

[Brithlor]

Thanks :).

I guess that is really just the bottom line, which is what I was looking for in this thread to begin with.

If WC largely works then I suppose I can slowly work to further my WC without worrying about it...

Some crappy WC clips did leave me a bit concerned though :).

I haven't gotten in ANY real fights where I would even begin to use any kung fu knowledge...

Thanks for all the replies people, I think I got all my questions answered now... except for the one about heun sao and other blocks that circle around a roundhouse punch. I'll send a PM to Phil Redmond about that as I'm pretty sure he's been in some real fights... And may have used those before.

[EmptyCup]

William Cheung fought many times in his day. Most ppl know this during the HK times. I also hear that he also helped take territory for triads due to his skills. Also in Australia he fought often. This information comes from a friend of his that I know. I do not know or have ever met him personally.

Since he teaches what he teaches, and based on is experience, theoretically you shouldn't worry about the street value of his TWC system. Leavin politics aside, although many don't always agree with his techniques, some do have value even if not initially apparent.

I do not remember if it was Phil who said this or somebody else. Regardless TWC often blocks first then counters. Many VT sylists say that should be done simultaneously. The explanation of whoever said on this forum sometime back is true...in real fights it's often the case where you block before attacking. Firstly b/c it's all you can do sometimes and secondly b/c it can be safer in some way.

Yes try to catch Phil if you can. Thanks for the link btw I will look at it when I have the time.

If you want to learn to fight the fastest way spar hard with full equipment. However make sure you and your opponent hold back for head blows. Getting a concussion is nasty business as it has lasting effects not to mention cutting training while you heal. Use hanging and wallbags often.

However the best way will always be to wait until you have the basics with chi sau and the forms and all. As well as the sparring drills. Free sparring too early will make you have a bad foundation, develop bad habits, and might bring back that old san soo you're more accustomed to.

[Brithlor]

I forgot all about William Cheung's fights... I guess that means atleast SOMETHING of his works, and if its true that he changed a few things then most likely alot of the system would be different if it didn't work.

So far I've only began chi sao, but have been doing alot of "cross arm drills" where the aim is to counter opponents movements and generally trap them while they're trying to counter your counter (if you know what I mean :o). Is it too early to begin real sparring (although I have been doing it already)? Will this make my application of techniques too sloppy if I get into sparring before getting the basics in chi sao down?

Thanks everyone for all the replies.

[EmptyCup]

...then again in those days martial artists were not as exposed to other arts and training regiments....

too early to free spar yes.

not too early to do drills, chi sau, anything on a opponent who's not all out totally resisting you. as in if he stands there using his hand or hands is ok. If he tries to attack you and evade with all his ability then no not good :D

[Brithlor]

Well, I don't have anything against cross training so that doesn't bother me :).

So I should spar with someone who is trying to do both attack AND defense? Just stick random strikes and having my partner use basic defense?

[EmptyCup]

just do what your teacher tells you to do!

[1renox]

Originally posted by Brithlor
....

Anyway, I just had a few questions about Wing Chun:

1. I'm really confused about this lineage contraversy and what exactly sets the different lineages apart...

2. Have you ever had to use Wing Chun in a real fighting situation ("on the street") and how well did it help you? Were you able to actually "block" (or guard/deflect)....

3. Whenever I practice a move such as a bong sao off of a round punch (moving the arm in a way so I'm on the outside instead of being in range of a second punch) or the bill sao/huen sao I can do those moves alright, but that's only because I'm working with a cooperating opponent. Whenever I spar with someone (who is defending AND attacking) ....

4. Does anyone know where would be a good place to get a Wooden wing chun dummy from? ....

5. Anyone know of good exercises to develope speed or power in short range punches? I just punch (soft :p) objects repeatedly at short range, and do roll punches as quickly as possible holding 15 pound weights...



My tuppence:

1. As mentioned, don't worry about lineage, it will just mess with your head. It's an interesting subject, but people get caught up in it and it just distracts from the training.

2. I've used WC in self defense. So have my sihings. You will get one or two techniques off and it will be over in the length of a deep breath. If it goes much longer than that, I would run.

3. The bong does work, but it requires timing. Even if the opponent withdraws, you will have already touched him and executed before the withdrawal. He moves--you move. It's only a slight deflection and you immediatly move. Also, at your stage, foot work is the most important aspect. W/O correct footwork the techniques are not nearly as effective. For an average student I'd surmise it will be about 2 years they are proficient enough to pull off.

4. Make sure you get a dummy with the correct arm placement. WC dummies are slightly different that JKD dummies.

5. DON"T USE WEIGHTS for punching horzontially. They will mess you up in the long run. Just punch in air, against bag and when sparring. You want to build on tricep endurance, less on strength and more importantly work on accuracy.

[EmptyCup]

Just going to add something about the bag punching...

It's good to start off will wallbag before proceeding to hanging b/c it allows you to get proper placement and technique first. Hanging bags move around and have a tendency to rotate before you become good enough to hit it center instead of glancing.

Make sure you are correct distance to punch and don't need to lean forward or reach to make contact. Best distance is with elbow tucked in with a fist's distance away from your body, see if you can make contact by just punching out and not leaning or reaching.

[Brithlor]

Yeah, I do what my sifu instructs me to do... :) I just want multiple opinions about this kind of stuff... And I'm taking 2 martial arts, and both teachers have conflicting views on alot of things, so I have to decide some things for myself... but obviously I just do what I'm instructed while I'm in class.


"3. The bong does work, but it requires timing. Even if the opponent withdraws, you will have already touched him and executed before the withdrawal. He moves--you move. It's only a slight deflection and you immediatly move. Also, at your stage, foot work is the most important aspect. W/O correct footwork the techniques are not nearly as effective. For an average student I'd surmise it will be about 2 years they are proficient enough to pull off."

I'm not sure if you know which kind of bong I mean. Are you talking about a bong off of a straight punch? The movement I'm talking about is off of a round house punch, and you do a RIGHT bong sao for a RIGHT punch, but you bring your left hand up towards your face, and if your opponent was aiming at your head the blow should land in between both of your wrists. After that the bong sao hand slips underneath your opponents arm and either pins the elbow, or pulls the opponents arm down. At the end of the technique you should fine yourself on the outside of your opponents RIGHT arm (if he through a right punch) with the left arm out of reach. Obviously this move has to be done with proper stepping aswell, especially since the second punch may be right around the corner, and you have to step in a way as to evade that punch and move the first punch in a way as to not slam it right into your face...

Anyway, my original question regarding that move was: I can do that fine in class where my partner is cooperating, but as soon as I try it in sparring (which I'm reading now is something that I should not do yet) the technique kind of falls apart...

Is that the technique you thought I ment? Or did you think it was off of a straight punch?

I'm not even sure if they do that move in every lineage, so that might be confusing some people when I ask about it...

Thanks for the replies everyone... :)

[anerlich]

I'm not sure if you know which kind of bong I mean. Are you talking about a bong off of a straight punch? The movement I'm talking about is off of a round house punch, and you do a RIGHT bong sao for a RIGHT punch, but you bring your left hand up towards your face, and if your opponent was aiming at your head the blow should land in between both of your wrists. After that the bong sao hand slips underneath your opponents arm and either pins the elbow, or pulls the opponents arm down. At the end of the technique you should fine yourself on the outside of your opponents RIGHT arm (if he through a right punch) with the left arm out of reach. Obviously this move has to be done with proper stepping aswell, especially since the second punch may be right around the corner, and you have to step in a way as to evade that punch and move the first punch in a way as to not slam it right into your face...

I've been doing TWC since 1989 with Rick Spain. I got gold sash in 1995 while we were still aligned with the WWCKFA.

Moving from inside to outside after blocking a round swinging punch in the way you describe is pretty impractical. There is a weak spot moving from the bon through tan as you move the punch past, during which you can get nailed. Also with bon you are usually too close to allow the punch to go past anyway. If you want to "pass" the swinging punch from inside to outside, the bil sao/tseun sao is a better option, though you will probably still need to step backward to do it. The problem with both of these techniques is they require you to stay in a place far enough away for the punch to pass by, but close enough to retaliate. You are still too close to the impact zone, generally the safest place to be with a haymaker or hook punch (other than in another suburb) is well inside the arc.

I also doubt the efficacy of these movements against a nice tight boxer's hook, which I'd try to weave under or take on the forearms/elbows with a "brush the hair" block, rather than seek a longer bridge.

There APPEARS to be a move in the TWC dummy sets 1&2 that has the application that you describe, but in my Sifu's and my opinion the application you describe of it is not viable. A better application is using the bon to stop one strike, and then the tan off it to block a second strike, NOT move around the same arm. Or backhand him in the face or poke him in the elye with the tan from the inside.

Against the sort of punch you describe, I might use a bon, but stay inside - after all I may not have the luxury of choice. You can still zone away from the other hand on the inside while you hit him in the face with a side palm, elbow forearm or whatever. You have to deal with his other arm, but from here you have a reasonable amount of contact with his initial punching arm and can control it, so you are still really only dealing with one arm. Then just beat the crap out of him from this position.

We normally start people sparring in a light, controlled fashion at around the same time we start teaching 'em chi sao. Opinions vary, do what your instructor recommends. I haven't noticed it causing anyone a technical problem.

Martial skill is the least important aspect of self defense. Read "Strong on Defense" by Sanford Strong if you want to understand the more important aspects, or check out the link on "surviving violent crime" in my .sig.

I take multiple MA's too ... can be confusing, but it's fun.

[Brithlor]

Thanks for the reply.

So you're pretty much saying simply that moves that go outside the opponents roundhouse arm DO NOT work?

What about the bill/choon sao (which just so happens is the only kind of move like that, that I can actually pull off). I know you said it would be a "better" option, but would it still be too impractical? I generally do a bill/punch, then a choon (which basically works to me like a second bill sao...) then lop the elbow and begin roll punching...

Anyway, thanks for the replies everyone, so far practically every one has agreed that moves that move outside the opponents arm are basically worthless, which makes me think of what point training them would be.

Also, if so many things like traps, bong saos, tan saos, etc have little to no function in actual combat what is the point of even knowing Wing Chun? I mean, most people throw roundish punches anyway (atleast to my knowledge) so why not just learn how to punch really hard and know one or two blocks?

[EmptyCup]

that's b/c the hook is NOT the only punch out there

don't look down on the tan sau. That gets used more than biu sometimes and as a block at the least would be the 2nd most important block you'll use. 3rd is pushing it but definitely no lower than that.

bong has other uses. Even if you have to use it once in the rare occasion at least it was there for you. Better than not knowing what to do in a situation and having no tools to draw from

we went over this point before in the same thread about why it's better to train some things. these blocks aren't useless. what can be deemed useless is the context in which they are used. bong doesn't work the way you are using it or the way other ppl might try to use it. but that does not mean bong itself is useless. there are times when it's a real life saver.

the forms has so many bong saus. especially chum kiu. there is a reason for that :) it's a very versitile hand...you'll learn later it has other variations

chook kiu bong, low bong, medium bong, collapsing bong, kwun sau...

[EmptyCup]

what is "choon" sau?

[Brithlor]

Choon sao can be done either off of a CROSS pok sao (defending against a round house or off a bill sao.

The bill sao version is very simple, where you basically do 2 bill saos, the first inside the punch, the second outside the punch in order to move the hand.

For the pok sao.... The opponent throws a right hook punch, you do a right cross pak sao, and immediatly swing the othwer hand up with the palm facing AWAY from their arm. That arm moves over the top of the opponents arm and moves into a position where you're almost touching your right shoulder (this is with your left hand). At the same time the pak sao hand (right hand) shoots straight up to grab the opponents elbow and move him so that the next punch can't reach you. The left hand now is in a good position to do a back hand or hammer blow to the opponents nose or neck.

It's faster than it sounds :-P. Just a few days ago I made a few discoveries with this move and I can actually pull it off reliably against two hook punches (chooning the first one, and quickly turning the opponents body before the second one can hit).

Yeah, I still feel that its good to know a variety of techniques as you said, empty cup... I was just curious as to what Anerlich's opinion was on that matter :).

Also, the "scooping" bong that someone reccomended earlier (forgot who) actually works surprisingly well... I found I just need to be alittle more agressive with both my hands and my footwork when executing it.

I sent a PM to Phil Redmond BTW, I really hope he has a chance to respond.

Thanks everyone, especially emptycup for all the replies... I pretty much have everything answered that I was looking for


BTW, I checked through EVERY Wooden dummy/mook jong thread and didn't find ONE that discussed places to buy dummies from :( .

[Stevo]

What about your right side - how do you cover it while you're doing this? Does your opponent just hang his left arm by his side while you're playing with his right arm with both of your arms?

[Phil Redmond]

Emptycup, wrote:
>>I know TWC likes using teak for the dummies.<<

Where did you get that idea from? All TWC people have different preferences for what type of wood they like. I even have a PVC Warrior dummy.

[Phil Redmond]

Over the past 33 years I have trained in different WC sifus in the Yip Man line and 2 that weren't. I was a sifu in one lineage until I started TWC in 1983. If you would like to email me at; sifu@wingchunkwoon.com I would be happy to answer any question that I'm able to based my experiences in other versions of WCK.

[Brithlor]

Thanks so much Phil! I really appreciate that! The Private messaging service here isn't really good enough as it only allows 1000 characters...

Stevo, I think the idea is to step far enough so that the second punch won't hit you... I found that if I do the cross arm bong sao that if they throw a straight punch immediatly afterwards that it is deflected at the same time. If they throw a round house then hopefully the move will be fast enough so that the punch never has time to land...

Basically I believe you either step in a way so that the punches don't hit you or move in a way so it automatically blocks or guards from a second punch.... also speed obviously helps...

I can't do most of those kinds of moves reliably yet but I think I'm getting SOMEWHERE...

[Brithlor]

Phil, I just sent you an email, please post if you don't receive it. (The first 5 letters of the email address should be ulmo BTW :)).

[Phil Redmond]

Hey Andrew,
TWC tries to stay out of the boxer's "tight" range. That's why Sifu says to keep your arms extended so that the boxer has to reach to hit you. But if he does get into the tight hook range treating his hook as an elbow strike is "one" way to deal with it.

[EmptyCup]

I got that impresson from Omar and William's various articles on the wooden dummy. They said they preferred teak because traditional dummies were supposedly made from teak. The dummies in the articles were also made from teak...

[Brithlor]

Just curious, but how different is the weight difference between Teak and another popular kind of wood... lets say red oak?

Does it FEEL any different..?

Just wondering, since teak seems to be much more expensive than everything else, and if its just for the name then there is no point...

[EmptyCup]

depends on how it's finished. teak is used in furniture, hence the high cost. Based on the finishes of those that I'ves seen, it's a very smooth dry feel to it

[Brithlor]

What is generally heavier, teak or red oak?

Does weigth even matter when comparing wooden dummies?

[anerlich]

What about the bill/choon sao (which just so happens is the only kind of move like that, that I can actually pull off). I know you said it would be a "better" option, but would it still be too impractical? I generally do a bill/punch, then a choon (which basically works to me like a second bill sao...) then lop the elbow and begin roll punching...

I didn't mean to sound that black and white ... my position is that this is a technique that requires ome pretty good timing and judgement of what's coming in. Misjudge it, best case you're too far away to capitalise on the move, worst case .. BLOOEY!

IMO there are less sophisticated but higher percentage defenses. We still teach these combinations, and I get 'em in sparring now and then, but IMO they are a more advance technique. Don't let me put you off them, though.

If there was a main point ot my post it was to try to move to the outside, but only if it's an option from where you are. And that you have options on the inside as well.

Why learn multiple blocks and not just stick with say bil sao? Because each block has strengths and weaknesses. Bil sao works great if the guy is right in front of you and throws a haymaker, but if you're standing at the bar and the guy on your left taps you on the shoulder and throws a sucker left hook, bil sao wont work. Here is where that bon to the inside (with a left wing arm, right wu sao) works beautifully. Jam that hook with the bon, larp his right wrist, and jerk it out to your right while you introduce his face to your left elbow. Turn to face him, larp his neck with your left and knee him in the face.

[EmptyCup]

I don't know for sure but I'm guessing red oak is heavier. In the old days for jongs Yip Man would prefer himself and choose for his valued students a special wood I don't know the name of. It was so dense that it would sink when placed in water (supposedly :))

[Brithlor]

Thanks for the clarification there Anerlich. So you DO believe there are practical applications to moves like that, but not for everything, otherwise what would be the point of things like tan/ bill saos etc.

Does the weight of the dummy really matter? I mean, if I made a HOLLOW dummy would my wing chun skill suffer because of that..?

[Stevo]

PVC dummies are HOLLOW. They are OK for training ANGLE and POSTIONING.

[anerlich]

I've often been surprised at how certain techniques that I thought would have no practical application have worked for me or other people when the right situation presented itself.

At the end of a very tough grading when I was a shuffling punching bag after sparring about ten fresh guys nonstop, the last guy just happend to step a certain way and I got him with the take down out of the seventh dummy set - it just worked perfectly.

A friend of mine used to practice jumping splits kicks - we kept telling him "that'll never work" then one day we had a pretend brawl in a park for training, In the middle of a melee two guys just were in cretain positions and he managed to nail both of them with that kick. It might never work again in 100 years, but it worked that time.

If neither of us had had the faith to practice those techniques though, we wouldn't have got them to work.

There's a wrestling and jiu jitsu move called the guillotine by some, and the "twister" by others. It is insanely complex, takes 8 moves to set up, and requires you to relinqush some of the normal jiu jitsu positional controls during those moves to achieve it. Eddie Bravo submits BJJ black belt competitors with it regularly in competition.

[Brithlor]

Aren't PVC dummies filled with concrete?

That makes sense what you're saying Anerlich, however, if the friend of yours ONLY practiced that jumping kick, and it only worked 1/100 times then I would still rather forget all about that move and work on something that would be best for the other 99% of the time.

[Phil Redmond]

The PVC dummies I sell are hollow. The Warrior Dummies http://www.thewarrior.com/ are also hollow.

[Brithlor]

Do you sell wooden dummies also? On the web?

[Phil Redmond]

Yes, I have someone making PVC dummies with wooden arms and a wooden leg. They are made to the exact measurement of the Koo Sang dummies only the arm spacing has been corrected. Yip Man gave the plans for the first dummies made in HK to one of William Cheung's brothers. When it was done Yip Man noticed a flaw in the arm spacing but he just left it like that. I have made the corrections on my dummies. I can email you a photo of one if you'd like. The guy that is making does it in his spare time. We are not mass producing them. So far he has made 3.

[EmptyCup]

when you say flaw in arm spacing do you mean the arms should be level, or do you mean the actualy space between them were wrong in the original plans?

if it's the latter could you please explain more specifically? thanks.

[Phil Redmond]

The arms were supposed to be level. It is the spacing between the arms that I was talking about.

[EmptyCup]

what's the correct spacing supposed to be then?

[Phil Redmond]

The measurements are on a drawing that I don't have with me at the present.

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
The arms were supposed to be level. Bologna...

For someone who is considered an icon of a martial art dating 300 years, Yip Man made a lot of mistakes.... Or that's what you'd have us believe...

[EmptyCup]

you mean to tell me he taught everybody different knife sets and footwork on PURPOSE?!?!?! get outta here!!!! :D

[Phil Redmond]

It's amazing what people out of the loop will say without really knowing the truth. The plans for the FIRST dummy made in HK were given to William Cheung's brother, who also was a student of Yip Man. I have learned WC from other student's of Yip Man besides William Cheung. They ALL say the arms should be level. Think about it. Do you do the bong in SLT/SNT, CK, or Biu Jee at a different height on either side? Is the tan on the left lower that the tan on the right? No, you train both sides evenly. /this way you cover the left and right gates on the same level. The plans that Yip Man gave William Cheung's brother had the arms level. Period. You train your way I'll continue to train my way as I have for 33 years. I'll post a link to a site unrelated to my lineage where the Sifu mentions that William Cheung's brother got the paln for the first dummy in HK. No one was using a dummy in HK until then.

[Phil Redmond]

>>For someone who is considered an icon of a martial art dating 300 years, Yip Man made a lot of mistakes.... Or that's what you'd have us believe...<<

You obviously know little about Yip Man. He was known for telling people, "Yeah, that's right" regardless of what they were doing.

[yylee]

Hey Phil

Here is a picture of Yip Man's own dummy (or they say it was his) in Yip Man Tong of FatShan.


http://www.hchwingchun.com.au/p07-imt.jpg

[old jong]

I can understand what you mean but,like 98.37562% of Wing Chun people,I have a dummy...(Two actually;one at home and one at my kwoon) with slightly uneven arms.I don't see that as a so much serious problem to have to adjust for maybe 3/4 of an inch on one side.

[Phil Redmond]

I'm still looking for more sources about the dummy.


http://www.springtimesong.com/wcforms4woodendummy.htm

"The wooden dummy is a training device that acts as a substitute for a live training partner. The movements on the dummy have been organized by Yip man into two versions. The earliest had 108 movements and the later version has 116 movements. The original dummy was just planted into the ground. The later indoor dummy was the suspended kind shown in the photo. There is also a two people version of the dummy which is known as "the live dummy." Some people also use this term to distinguish the suspended dummy from the dummy that was like a stake planted into the ground. Yip Man taught the two people version when there wasn't a wooden dummy yet. The Cheung brothers built the first wooden dummy for Yip man. For more information on dummy construction and dummy use click here: more about the wooden dummy".

[Phil Redmond]

I've seen Yip Man demonstrate on dummies with uneven arms before. I just go by the plans he made originally. What more can I say?

[Phil Redmond]

I knew this would cause a controversy. But when Keng Meng posted like he knew the real deal I had to clear things up.
I have an original Koo Sang dummy. You can insert the arms so that they are level or not. It all depends on how you insert them into the trunk. One of my Sifus, Duncan Leung, took private lessons with Yip Man. His dummies have even arms. People can put them in any way they choose. I choose level. I want my bong, tan pak, etc. on the on the left to be the same as the right. We are learning how to cover upper, middle, and lower gates right?
I train, I fight, I win. That's the bottom line. I do what works for me and my students.
Peace

[Phil Redmond]

Well, it looks like Yip Man's personal dummy in Fatshan had even arms eh?
http://www.hchwingchun.com.au/p07-imt.jpg

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Well, it looks like Yip Man's personal dummy in Fatshan had even arms eh?
http://www.hchwingchun.com.au/p07-imt.jpg

It looks uneven to me? The right-arm socket on the trunk seems to be a small step higher then the left-arm. :)

Actually I don't really care if it is not level or not. We adapt to different people of different sizes all the time. Bong/Tan/Folk angles are not always rigidly fixed (well, at lease I am not taught to fix them anyways).

[Phil Redmond]

It looks more even than this.

[Phil Redmond]

Bong/Tan/Folk angles are not always rigidly fixed (well, at lease I am not taught to fix them anyways).
I understand your point. I look at it like this. To us a Tan covers the upper gate. A gan covers the middle gate. Therefore I "spread" out and upwards and I "plough" down and out. I learned the way you probably do now. I do things differently now.
If your way works for you it's all good. After looking closer I still say those arms look more like this.

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
It looks more even than this.

well, may be....

http://www.wengchun.net/Galerie/Master/SifuHoffmann_ChengKwong_WaiYan1_klein.jpg

http://www.wengchun.net/Galerie/Freunde/PangNam_klein.jpg


let's leave it at that, I accept and respect our differences ;)

[Phil Redmond]

That's not Wing Chun. That's Weng Chun. They are written differently in Chinese and they are different in concept, (though some Wing Chun has dummies like that). I agree. We'll just leave it like that.

[curtis]

Hello gentelmen

If you will let me perhaps I can help clear things up a little ,

First off the dummy arms thing. I say "To each his own", but what Mr Redmond is talking about realy isnt the arms (the holes drilled in the body, but how the arms are made then self.) in the koo sang the mook jong, the arms themselfs are made offset so one can be placed up and the other placed down, bringing then closer to the center.


There is an interveiw with Yip Man at http://wingtsunwelt.vipex.net/engli..._interview.html

he trys to explain the differance between wing chung and weng chun.

Injoy the debate. Ill step out now. have a good day.
sincererly. C.A.G.

[RTR]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
>>For someone who is considered an icon of a martial art dating 300 years, Yip Man made a lot of mistakes.... Or that's what you'd have us believe...<<

You obviously know little about Yip Man. He was known for telling people, "Yeah, that's right" regardless of what they were doing.

As I too have heard this about Ip Man, it is known that a lot of people say this or that about his WC, the truth of the matter is that pror to the HK period, "Futshan" ive never heard from my Sigung or other Sifu from that period about a dummy with level arms, or is that level holes? Perhaps you are referring to Sifu Ho Luens new design. At the end of the day its only "a training device" now being made in plastic as well.....:D, 50 to 100 yrs from now someone will say this this too was blueprinted by the Immortal Ip Man.

[RTR]

Hmmmm, much to debate here, love these threads, now are we talking about the holes that are drilled in the trunk or are we talking about just the level of the arms? I would be totally interested to see blueprints on this dummy as I too have seen blueprints, would be nice to compare :D

[yuanfen]

Phil R. is correct IMO.

Wing chun is a balanced art on both left and right sides. How you stick the arms into the dummy can make a difference,
a particular carpenter's error can be multiplied if mechanically interpreted.

A little off centering of the holes can make a difference.

And one can "adjust" to a badly made dummy.... if one has to.
But if you have a choice- why not do it "right"?:-

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Curtis,
I think this link will work for the Yip Man interview. Also, thanks for bringing that dummy with the breakable leg and spring arms by the kwoon. You should post pictures of the devices you make here. I know I'm sold. Maybe others will be too.
http://wingtsunwelt.vipex.net/english/weltverband/yipman/ym_interview.html

[yuanfen]

Thanks for the posting of the pic of the dummy at the Ip man Tong. Much appreciated.

[EmptyCup]

if such a minor difference makes SUCH a difference in your wing chun being improper do not do the dummy period then. the dummy by nature forces you to "fix" your hands into certain positions that are artificial.

using a live partner will allow you to do your wing chun better then. skip chi sau too as that is again artificial training.

example on dummy of error ---> second section after paks and wang juts is gum da. the arms in a dummy don't move. the arms of a real person would. therefore we should make arms that move vertically? :)

left and right sides should be equal? so a tan has to be so and so degrees perfectly all the time and the tan of the opposite hand must match the first tan all the time too? I'm guessing all medium-level punches are always on the same level and angle too....that was one could use that ever-flexible dummy tan sau to block them all :)


I think having even arms is good. But to say that uneven ones make any difference is a load of manure. There are far too many other factors that make more of a difference in dummy training...

[yuanfen]

Read carefully- what I said- one can adjust.
Dont step on the unfortunate manure! Possibly could give fungus in the nails:-
BTW you apparently miss an important point about dummy work-
the main idea is not about "fixed"positions...per your choice of words.

[Phil Redmond]

We understand that a form can't equal actual combat. Real combat is dynamic. Forms help you learn structure, balance coordination, etc. When you perform SNT you do the hand positions the same way every time equally on both sides. The same goes for the other forms. The dummy cannot replace a real partner but it's better than nothing. The arms on the dummy will not move as a real person. You have to use some imagery. You said that there is a error in the dummy form. Can you tell us how to correct it?

[Vash]

1. Bruce Lee was a *******!

2. Bruce Lee was a genius!

[yuanfen]

Empty Cup is insightful.
So is Vash.
Happy days are here again.

[EmptyCup]

phil

I did not mean that literally

yuanfen

sometimes your posts make as much sense as whippys. i speak english not cryptic.

if I want metaphors or philosophy I'd read Bruce's book one more time...

[yuanfen]

Empty Cup-sez-

i speak english not cryptic.

(( me thinks-I hear the rattle of a distant cup))

if I want metaphors or philosophy I'd read Bruce's book one more time...

((That is great-take your time in reading. Practice makes perfect.A collection of lifted quotes is great
philosophy! Finger(s) pointing at the moon in a zenish way.Too bad Ip Man didnt see the error of his ways
in dealing with the jong specially the gum sao--he could have used an empty cup! BTW I think the gum section is fine as is.))

[KPM]

Hi Phil! Can I jump into the dummy discussion?

You wrote:
The plans for the FIRST dummy made in HK were given to William Cheung's brother, who also was a student of Yip Man. I have learned WC from other student's of Yip Man besides William Cheung. They ALL say the arms should be level.

---The dummies used in Pin SUN WCK, Sum Nung WCK, Chi Sim WCK and Chan Yiu Min WCK all have uneven arms. Every picture of mainland China WCK people doing the dummy in Leung Ting's "Roots" book features a dummy with uneven arms.

Think about it. Do you do the bong in SLT/SNT, CK, or Biu Jee at a different height on either side? Is the tan on the left lower that the tan on the right? No, you train both sides evenly. /this way you cover the left and right gates on the same level.

---Point taken, but I don't think the differences in the height of the techniques on a dummy with uneven arms are all that significant.

The plans that Yip Man gave William Cheung's brother had the arms level. Period. You train your way I'll continue to train my way as I have for 33 years.

---Leung Ting states in his "Roots" book that Yip Man sent Cheng Pak to "borrow" a dummy from the Weng Chun people to take to a carpenter as an example for construction of dummies for his own students. When the Weng Chun people were unwilling to send out a dummy on "loan", the carpenter himself was sent to take measurements from the dummy. The "Weng Chun" people noted were the Chi Sim WCK clan that trained at the Dai Duk Lan in HK. A picture of one of their dummies has already been posted earlier in this thread. It has uneven arms.

I'll post a link to a site unrelated to my lineage where the Sifu mentions that William Cheung's brother got the paln for the first dummy in HK. No one was using a dummy in HK until then.

---I have seen it stated from more than one source that the Chi Sim WCK guys training at the Dai Duk Lan had the first dummy in HK. It has also been suggested that they may have been the first to suspend the dummy rather than having it sunk into the ground.

---While I agree with you that "too each his own" and that you should train what works for you...and I see nothing wrong with a dummy with EVEN arms, my conclusion is that the UNEVEN arm design is the older version and the EVEN arm design likely a later innovation. If Yip Man himself had made the innovation, it certainly would seem to me that he would have ensured that all his students were using dummies designed this way. It would have been a simple thing to correct an early mistake in a blueprint design.

Keith

[kj]

The impracticality of constructing both arm holes on the same horizontal plane results in differing solutions and tradeoffs:

[list=1]
The arm holes are typically drilled or chiseled on different planes within the dummy body. A disadvantage of this solution is that symmetrically constructed arms are then utilized at different vertical heights.
The first problem can be resolved by construction methods applied to the arms themselves (rather than the arm hole). The solution is to offset the square insert shaft from the round applied arm area. Thus, by orienting the arms correctly in the offset holes, the resulting work area is now or nearly vertically even. The disadvantage with this solution is that the offset in the arm shafts interferes somewhat with even and symmetrical play in the arms.
[/list=1]

Some folks are more concerned about the first disadvantage of uneven arms. Other folks are more concerned about the second problem, where the nature and evenness of play in the dummy (sometimes spoken of in terms of the dummy's "energy") is affected. One's priorities dictate the appropriate solution.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yuanfen]

Hi KJ-

I am no carpenter..and the carpentry can make for good and bad dummies.
In both my koosang and my custom made dummy and my first dummy made by my sifu--the arms end up being evn and balanced at the bridges and ends.
While the holes are horizontally at differnt levels-they criss cross exactly at the center of the dummy.
As Phil was saying then there is the placement of the arms.
The square part of each arm fits into the holes with the right "give". But the front part of the arms are tapered. But the broadest part of the tapered arms are (the circle) is larger than the square pieces that go into the square holes-again there is "give" of the arms up/down, sideways, front/back. But the positioning of the arms are reversed- when done right it compensates for the holes being on two horizontal levels,,,
so that the arms themselves are even and balanced allowing for the "give". When I do the tok soa motion- both elbows have the same energy and feel.
I havent been to the Ip man tong- but in the posted pics the arms appear
to be balanced. I was also interested in the spacing of the arms.

But carpenters vary and one can adjust. Ip man himself worked on different dummies from what I understand- not only one. Once one internalizes the principles some differences in shapes matters less imo.
Gotta go do wing chun.

[kj]

Hi Joy.

My own dummy is built as you describe, and typical construction.

The original pair of upper arms that came with my dummy have offset shanks, as you and I both described and which, when turned correctly, can be aligned almost level with each other.

I have a second pair of arms with shanks that are centered and symmetrical, whereupon one arm is higher than the other when inserted in the dummy.

Only when it was brought to my attention, did I notice a slight difference in play to the different arm types on my dummy; and even then, only when forces are applied at certain angles and in certain ways.

Originally posted by yuanfen
But carpenters vary and one can adjust. Ip man himself worked on different dummies from what I understand- not only one. Once one internalizes the principles some differences in shapes matters less imo.

I agree completely. While anyone may choose to optimize or "tune" their dummy for such training aspects and preferences, any such variations are nits in comparison to the preponderance of other factors contributing to the quality (or lack thereof) in one's Wing Chun skills.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Phil Redmond]

Keith,
Unless I'm wrong Weng Chun and Wing Chun are not the same thing. At least that's what I hear from the Chinese MA community. Yip Man even said that they are different. So I wouldn't base the Wing Chun dummy arms on how Weng Chun has theirs. Also, I should have written, the first dummy in HK from Yip Man's school. There may have been dummies in other systems. I wouldn't know.

[EmptyCup]

you thought wrong....that rattle is coming from Arizona ;)

btw I too do not think anything is wrong with the gum section...I was trying to point out that somethings in the dummy are used for training purposes and are not as perfect as you have to make do with what you have yet it can still do the job without much difference. i.e having the arms move down when you do the gum or not. Just like having perfectly even arms or not...

btw no matter how many times I ask you to stop with the name-calling you still have to revert to grade school antics. Oh yeah you must teach grade 1 :)

[yuanfen]

Really Empty Cup?


Review your own choice of words early in this thread.See below.
Obviously I am a failure as a grade 1 teacher- I have failed to
get you present your ideas well or with much subtlety.

--------------------------------------------------------
yuanfen



I think having even arms is good. But to say that uneven ones make any difference is a load of manure.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[yuanfen]

Really Empty Cup?


Review your own choice of words early in this thread.See below.
Obviously I am a failure as a grade 1 teacher as you have tried to label me- I have failed to
get you to present your ideas well or with much subtlety.

--------------------------------------------------------
yuanfen



I think having even arms is good. But to say that uneven ones make any difference is a load of manure.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[EmptyCup]

I never attack you. You always do that to me under thinly disguised attempts ar pseudo-philosophy. You name call constantly. Always about the cup jokes.

You are a professor. Learn to refrain from getting personal when somebody criticizes something you might have said.

btw, thank you for your concern but it's very presumptuous and condescending to say you failed to "teach" me. I don't need to be taught by the likes of you thankyouverymuch.

btw to the rest of the posters here they might not catch certain things you like to allude to in your posts sometimes. You know what I am talking about. PM me if you wish to say something. There is no need for games.

[yuanfen]

empty cup sez;

I never attack you.

((Aw come on---disagreeing is ok and is one thing. But saying that an opinion is a load of manure is not the most civil way of expressinga different opinion.))

You always do that to me under thinly disguised attempts ar pseudo-philosophy.

((pseudo philosophy whatever that is- is not my bag))



You are a professor.

((I primarily wear a wing chun hat on this forum---whatever else I am is not relevant here))

Learn to refrain from getting personal when somebody criticizes something you might have said.

((You cant help but be crude- can you??))

I don't need to be taught by the likes of you thankyouverymuch.

((More of the same-poor sarcasm-not much class there))

btw to the rest of the posters here they might not catch certain things you like to allude to in your posts sometimes.

((A theatrical aside?))

You know what I am talking about.

((Not really- what are you talking about??))

PM me if you wish to say something.

((No pm-s thank you))

There is no need for games.

((No games))

[EmptyCup]

...now that we have an understanding....


P.S.

whatever my handle...it is not relevant here either. Agreed?

[yuanfen]

keep the manure level phrasing out in agreements or disagreements-and it will be fine.

[KPM]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Keith,
Unless I'm wrong Weng Chun and Wing Chun are not the same thing. At least that's what I hear from the Chinese MA community. Yip Man even said that they are different. So I wouldn't base the Wing Chun dummy arms on how Weng Chun has theirs. Also, I should have written, the first dummy in HK from Yip Man's school. There may have been dummies in other systems. I wouldn't know.


Hi Phil!

Wing Chun or Weng Chun is irrelevant in this case. The dummies are all the same. Not all of the pics I referred to in LT's book were of Weng Chun people, and as I pointed out, both Pin Sun WCK and Sum Nun WCK use a dummy with uneven arms. I still maintain that making an offset between the shaft and main portion of the arm so that they are level when inserted into the dummy trunk is a more recent innovation. There are lots of pics of Yip Man working the dummy. All seem to have uneven arms. I would think that if Yip Man thought it was a significantly important point, he would have ensured that the dummies his people were using had been made in the "even arm" fashion. Beware of "revisionist" history. The whole idea of "I have the correctly made dummy and everyone elses has been modified by improper construction" has a familiar ring to it. Don't you think so? :-)

Keith

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Keith,
Don't worry. I wasn't going there and I won't. There's enough division as it is. My point is that I've learned level arms from Sifus not involved with TWC. They all had the same resoning. Then years later I met William Cheung. He gave the exact same reason for level arms as they did. I have seen pics of Yip Man on a dummy with level arms also. The dummy that is supposed to be at his house in Fatshan had level arms.
" I would think that if Yip Man thought it was a significantly important point, he would have ensured that the dummies his people were using had been made in the "even arm" fashion. "
That arguement doesn't work for people who knew how Yip Man taught. Of course I wasn't there but I've talked to at least 6 people who were close to Yip Man and they ALL told stories of how he would let many things go telling people what they were doing is "good" even if it wasn't.

[Phil Redmond]

Hi again Keith,
I'm not sure if I mentioned this earlier on in this thread, but the plans that Yip Man gave the Cheung brothers in HK had level arms. This I know for sure and have seen the proof. Those who practice with un-even arms more power to them. I won't, unless I'm doing CLF.

[foolinthedeck]

brithlor,
i wont bother to read the other 98 replies, let me give my opinions to your questions.

1.
find a closer teacher, or if not, find someone local to train with even if they are from another 'lineage' wing chun is wing chun, lineage is illusory.
2.
pivot as natural, this relates to point 1. above, if you only train with people who do it one way you wont learn the answers, train with as many people as possible.

3.
forget about the street until you know the answers yourself, byb which time you wont need them anymore.

4.
when you are at the same level.

5.
only get a dummy when you have completed first 3 forms or spent about 8 years... basicly when you get to the end of wing chun u will realise that siu lim tao was the most important thing all along.

6.
practise, chi sao, dont use weights.

[Brithlor]

Thanks for the answers foolinthedeck...

1.
find a closer teacher, or if not, find someone local to train with even if they are from another 'lineage' wing chun is wing chun, lineage is illusory.

Thanks for the imput here, but I think I'm just going to stick with my first teacher despite the distance... I still practice and train with others quite a bit. For me TWC seems to fit what I'm looking for more than the other lineages, but that is just my own personal preferance.

2.
pivot as natural, this relates to point 1. above, if you only train with people who do it one way you wont learn the answers, train with as many people as possible.

You mean pivot as natural for me? Or are you implying one way is more natural than the other? It does make sense to train with as many opposing views as possible though... I've found that when I practice outside with shoes on that picking up my feet is slightly quicker. Also, most of the time there doesn't seem to be any reason to pivot at all when stationary... in that case most of the time I change stance would be in movement anyway (where I'd HAVE to pick up my feet)

3.
forget about the street until you know the answers yourself, byb which time you wont need them anymore.

Well, I'm only asking so that I can learn from people who do things differently, so I can decide the answers myself. Even if one way works there could be a better way... When I posted these questions I already had a pretty clear idea of what I was training, and the purposes for it. But I still feel it is necessary to hear other points of view, and especially the point of view of people who actually used techniques from this martial art outside of the classroom.

4.
when you are at the same level.

I'm not sure which question this one is being responded to, since the numbers you listed do not match with my original questions.... but I assume you're talking about the moves that go from the "inside" to the "outside"? Also, do you mean that by the time I know how to fight with a martial art that there is no need for it any more, or do you mean that when I can use a martial art effectively that I will know THEN, so there is no point in asking these kind of questions?

5.
only get a dummy when you have completed first 3 forms or spent about 8 years... basicly when you get to the end of wing chun u will realise that siu lim tao was the most important thing all along.

Well, I guess I'll come back here in another 7 and a half years :). I do practice the Siu Lim Tao quite a bit though, but I feel that anything that helps with my practice is a good thing, regardless of any rules saying that I can't use a certian training aid until I reach a specific point... I practice doing movements in the air most of the time, which definitely improves my wing chun... As long as I don't neglect other training I don't see how using a wooden dummy (basically practicing in the air with more resistance) would do anything but improve my wing chun.

6.
practise, chi sao, dont use weights.

I wish more people with respond on this question.... I've seen so many statements made by wing chun people... some saying that weight training is GOOD for wing chun, others saying it will make you slower (I don't really understand that one), others saying it will mess me up in the long run... I guess I'll just do what seems most natural to me, which would be doing wing chun movements slowly with weights, and roll punching. I don't see why I can't do Chi Sao AND wieghts though.

Thanks once again for all the questions everyone. My main question here was mostly about where to get a wooden dummy, and the movements used to get outside of round punches (such as cross arm bong sao into tan sao), which I got answered very well.

[EmptyCup]

give me a break that's the first time I said something like that. All those times you did the cup thing was when you were being an a$s

go check the history of your past posts.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by yylee
It looks uneven to me? The right-arm socket on the trunk seems to be a small step higher then the left-arm. :)

This is what our line emulates. The dummy's right arm is slightly higher just as Yip Man's dummy shows.

The picture that Phil shows next is too extreme a difference I think. But your comments (YYLEE) are valid. We (all of us who do Wing Chun) adapt to different size opponents/partners. Bong, Tan, Fook are adaptable.

This is an old debate. Seems some people like the arms level. That's fine. But the uneven arms forces harder work from the left side which because most folks are right-handed, gives a balance to the body when developed.

Regards,

[anerlich]

Brithlor,

By all means get a dummy now if you're keen. It ain't gonna hurt. The millimeter spacing of the arms, their heights, etc. really arn't vitally important. My dummy is not the ideal measurements, and the arms are uneven, but I'm sure as he11 it's a lot better than not training.

While it's not essential, there's no sensible reason you can't do weights and WC. My Sifu has done weights for as long as he's done WC, coming up to 30 years, and he has no problems with either speed nor sensitivity. The fastest humans on the planet use weights extensively, so any notions of them slowing you down is a nonsense. Just make sure you don't spent all your time in the gym and none doing WC. Train like an athlete, not a bodybuilder.

WC is designed to avoid reliance on strength - that doesn't mean being stronger than the other guy is bad. IMO there are three main aspects of combat ability - skill, strength, and endurance. If your attributes in two of these areas exceed that of your opponent, you will usually prevail ("usually" because Murphy's law always applies).

Some will disagree, but the argument usually degenerates into a religious war with little reference to fact.

Do what feels right for you in your training - there's nothing wrong with experimenting or trying something a bit unusual either. Seek other's advice, but make your own evaluations and check it out for yourself, that's the way to learn.

[Phil Redmond]

John, opinions vary. What is "too" for you may be the norm for me."By all means get a dummy now if you're keen. It ain't gonna hurt. The millimeter spacing of the arms, their heights, etc. really arn't vitally important. My dummy is not the ideal measurements, and the arms are uneven, but I'm sure as he11 it's a lot better than not training". AN
Andrew is right. You can practice with a dummy now and get good results with even or uneven arms. Constant training is more important than quibbling over arm height. You can practice routines that you learn in class on the dummy even if you don't know the complete form.

[yuanfen]

empty cup sez;

when you were being an a$s
----------------------------------------------

!!!!

[Brithlor]

Thanks for the answers Anerlich :).

The whole idea that weights made one slower makes no sense to me...

I'm going to go ahead and get that dummy despite the 8 year rule :-P.

I mean, I trained on a dummy in class so I don't see the big deal.

[anerlich]

I mean, I trained on a dummy in class so I don't see the big deal.

Me neither, I think I started doing basic stuff on it in my second or third lesson at the academy.

[Brithlor]

I think I started it on the 4th day at class :P.

To me, it seems like practicing on a dummy is just a more refined way of practicing in the air (you should do BOTH obviously... some things can't be done on the dummy...). When working on the dummy it helps improve some of the stepping problems beginners (like myself) might have. For example, when I was showed a certian move (defense against a straight and round house puch, using a cross arm bong sao), after practicing it in the air for awhile I executed the move poorly on my fellow students... but then my instructor had me practice on the move on the dummy... after 10 minutes of doing the technique over and over again I was able to improve it slightly so I could use the foot work in conjuction with the hands effectively (well, atleast MORE effectively).

I mean, if you shouldn't practice on the dummy for 8 years does that mean you shouldn't practice in the air (shadow boxing) for 8 years aswell? Because if anything practicing in the air would lead to more bad habits then the dummy....

(I obviously still plan on doing a lot of "in the air" practice even after I get a dummy ofcourse.)

[Phil Redmond]

>>I mean, if you shouldn't practice on the dummy for 8 years does that mean you shouldn't practice in the air (shadow boxing) for 8 years aswell? Because if anything practicing in the air would lead to more bad habits then the dummy....<<

Every WC person should know that WC was developed to be learned in a short amount of time as opposed to other Shaolin styles. You can complete the whole system in 8 years, depending on how hard and often you train. I don't mean to say that you will have mastered every aspect of the art or that the learning curve stops, but to wait 8 years to use a dummy is way too long.
Someone who doesn't have too much to teach or someone that wants to keep your monthly dues coming in might wait 8 years to teach the dummy.

[Brithlor]

So you agree that I should start training in the dummy whenever I get the chance?

I'm glad my teacher doesn't have me wait 8 years :-P...