shaolin and wushu?? need help

[lukeybaby]

i am going to start kung fu, the sifu i will be having is han jin -song, below are some achievments of his.

-Executive Member – Technical Committee of International WuShu Federation

-Vice President – Oceania WuShu Federation

-Secretary General – Australian Kungfu (WuShu) Federation

-Head Coach – Australian National WuShu/Tai Chi Team

-Former Senior Coach in WuShu/Tai Chi – Beijing University of Physical Education, China

-International WuShu/Tai Chi Judge – Accredited by International WuShu Federation

-WuShu 7th Duan – Awarded by Chinese WuShu Association

now my question is, how much different is wu shu to normal shaolin????? i want to be able to use wu shu for self defence aswell, is it possible??

luke z

[Brad]

As for if it can be used for self defence, it depends on who's teaching, and how good of a student you are :p There's also San Shou which is awesome for fighting...

Though, in a lot of cases in these qualifications that you listed, wushu just means Chinese martial arts, so he may very well know a Shaolin or some other traditional style(A lot of quality older contemporary wushu masters are also VERY good at traditional and draw most of their skill from there).

[lukeybaby]

thank you so much for that helpful reply!!! my head fills a lot clearer on the subject now. :-)

luke z

[SmallAssassin]

Hello,

Well Wu Shu can be looked at in one of two ways: a performance art, or an art that builds you up athletically for martial use.

Performance Wu Shu is long fist without its meaning. It is a folk dance from ye olde days that were much like the Apache Indian war dances. Wu Shu is a pretty way of expressing China's fighting history.

The other Wu Shu is the original meaning, which was martial art. Shaolin practised longfist for many years, not so much for its combat techniques, but more for their own athletic abilities. As kungfu is about refinement, longfist is used to teach the individual to learn his metaphorical and literal limitations (metaphorical: do they just give up because the training is too hard, or do they learn to control their emotions and keep going? literal: how far they can stretch, how high they can kick etc.), and over the years, once ready for it, the special monks would get to learn the shortfist styles that were made solely for fighting, nothing else (e.g. Pak Mei).

Assuming you want to learn kungfu as a practical art, one should practise longfist for about 10 years, then try to get on to the fighting shortfist styles, like Xing Yi or Pak Mei.

It is for this reason that most people do one of two things: stay with longfist because it's easiest, or just give up because kungfu progress takes a very, very very loing time and a huge and subtle learning curve.

[lukeybaby]

thanx alot for the helpful info, i am not a newbie to martial arts i do tai chi, and karate, but i also want to branch out into kung fu. do you think 'wu shu' is a good starter arts??? my 'future' master is very talented, and i think his wu shu dojo refers to chinese kung fu(or martial arts) in general, but i am not 100% sure, i will have to double check.

luke z

[SmallAssassin]

To me Wu Shu in whatever respect is a very high art, and I believe will do more for you than an other martial art simply because it teaches you to control yourself as a whole.

There is a saying that I like which says:

"A ballet dancer can easily do disco, yet a disco dancer cannot do ballet."

I would make the most of your future master, and then strive for more. Always searching, never be satisfied...

[Brad]

Performance Wu Shu is long fist without its meaning. It is a folk dance from ye olde days that were much like the Apache Indian war dances. Wu Shu is a pretty way of expressing China's fighting history.
I would dissagree. A lot of what it means has to do with which set of forms you're learning, when that person learned their wushu, etc.
BTW, here's a good article talking about the fighting aspect of contemporary wushu, and has a few pics showing how some longfist techniques are applied:
http://www.terra.es/personal/ealpan/articles/sanda.htm

[SmallAssassin]

I was making a point between learnging forms iwhout meaning, and forms with meaning, hence why I quoted "Performance" wu shu is that wihotu meaning.

Of course it is down to the teacher, forms etc. but it still does not exclude the fact that wu shu can be done as performance or as meaningful kungfu.

Tam Tui is a combat art, yet taught without meaning it is merely wu shu for performance sake.

It is also important to remember that longfist was and is the first stage of learning kungfu. It is the crysalid for development. The goal of longfist should be to build as strong a foundation as possible, so that you can be ready to build the higher arts upon it.

[Shaolinlueb]

if you read the new article in this months kung fu about shaolin. they are coming out with a shaolin wushu compulsirary(sp?) set. based off of old shaolin forms but without all the high jumping and such. so there is traditional shaolin and now a shaolin wushu set.

[Da_Moose]

Assuming you want to learn kungfu as a practical art, one should practise longfist for about 10 years, then try to get on to the fighting shortfist styles, like Xing Yi or Pak Mei.

Wow, 10 years to attain a practical self-defense system? That in itself does not seem practical. I understand that a good, solid foundation is needed, but ten years? No one today has that kind of time to devote to one form/style if they have practicality in mind. If its practical, shouldn't it then also be useful almost immediately? I would rather train in a practical art for 10 years as opposed to 10 years for the foundation and then have to go learn the practical, no nonsense stuff.

Lukey,
Please let us know if your future kwoon (dojo) is focused on Modern Wushu (performance, i.e., Jet Li) or Kung Fu as a whole, i.e., for health and self-defense/combat. This was we can better answer/opinionate about your question regarding Wushu as a good starter art for learning Kung Fu. Also, what do you want to focus on yourself? Self-defense/combat, Health, sport?

Steve

[Brad]

Of course it is down to the teacher, forms etc. but it still does not exclude the fact that wu shu can be done as performance or as meaningful kungfu.

Tam Tui is a combat art, yet taught without meaning it is merely wu shu for performance sake.
Agree 100% :)

[Brad]

Many longfist style can be a very practical wushu style on it's own, and can be practiced as a complete martial arts system without relying on some other "shorthand" sytle to complete it.

A lot of school did adopt some kind of longfist curriculum to teach beginers and younger folks, because of the strength and flexability that can be gained from it.

Assuming you want to learn kungfu as a practical art, one should practise longfist for about 10 years, then try to get on to the fighting shortfist styles, like Xing Yi or Pak Mei.
Now, are you talking about longfist styles in general, modern longfist, or another specific longfist system? Could you clarify this statement? I think longfist(of any style) can become very practical within a couple years if trained for fighting.

[norther practitioner]

I think longfist(of any style) can become very practical within a couple years if trained for fighting.

I'd have to concur

[lukeybaby]

da mouse-------- i have had one lesson so far and it seemed like it was for show, i learnt 5 stance(not all), but the thing is my sifu wasn't actually there (he is currently with the australian Wushu team in a world competition or something, because he is the coach.), so a higher ranking student taught the class and we were doing forms.

i want to be able to learn self defence(through wushu), flexibility, forms(for show), stances, etc. i am a karateka and we learn stances punches etc, so when we do our kata we know what type of punch or stance we are doing. but i really have to talk to my sifu(han jin song) to see what we are EXACTLY doing.

what exactly did jet li do?modern?, and would he be able to protect himself in self defence?

luke z

[MasterKiller]

Jet Li has always maintained that he is not a self-defense specialists. He studied modern wushu and won a few national titles in the process, but he never claimed to be a fighter.

[norther practitioner]

If you are going to learn more than just compulsories and stuff like that (just forms, for show) than you should seek something else for "self defense." Is there sparring in the school, two man drills (not two man forms), etc...

[Brad]

what exactly did jet li do?modern?, and would he be able to protect himself in self defence?
Jet Li and his old team were taught what each technique was for(and traditional wushu too) but with the cultural revolution(martial aplication banned), and them being pro athletes(enough risk of injurey just doing forms), they wouldn't have been allowed to do any serious application work beyond understanding enough to put proper intent into the forms performance. Anything real fighting they'd learned would have had to have been done after the cultural revolution on their own time. But they all had their specialties(Jet's was Fanziquan), thus different teachers at some points and different experiences. Wu Bin(head coach) basically called in the top traditional masters he could get his hands on to teach the Beijing Wushu Team members. They were representing the capital city and being taken on international tours, so had to be better than everyone else. They seemed to learn pretty much everything the traditionalists did except maybe full on sparring.

Just thought I'd add that Jet Li is a pacifist to an extreme, lol. Wouldn't defend himself if he could(acording to a fan mail response). He could really care less about fighting.

There's an article/interview about his Fanziquan teacher, Ma Xian Da, on the kungfumagazine.com website that you might find interesting.


i am a karateka and we learn stances punches etc, so when we do our kata we know what type of punch or stance we are doing. but i really have to talk to my sifu(han jin song) to see what we are EXACTLY doing.
If it's a quality wushu school, you can possibly expect to do a LOT of line drills and stationary drills. stretch kicks, punches, the three hand positions, stance work(five stances form!), ditang, stationary punches, etc. If you're seriously interested in application ask how/if it's trained and all that. The athleticism you gain through modern wushu even if learned purely as a performance art can be pretty valuable though.

[Da_Moose]

Luke,

Jet Li practices modern Wushu for the most part. He is a highly skilled athlete and has expressed many different aspects of Kung Fu in his movies. As for his capabilities for street self defense, i cannot say. I have seen him speak about this once on TV, but his example was more for show than anything else. It was one of his signature moves that entailed him kicking someone behind him with an axe kick that reached behind his head, kicking the opponent with the toes, much like in Kiss of the Dragon when he kicked the door control panel near the end of the movie. I would have simply introduced my elbow to the attacjer to defend myself, more practical and direct. I think he would fare well in a real situation due to the fact he is a highly trained martial artis and could probably make his body work how he needed it to to defend himself well enough.

Someone hit on this a little too. Modern Wushu is a result of the communist takeover of China. Many martial arts masters either fled China or were killed during this time. The new government did not want a nation full of potential revolutionaries, yet it could not eradicate a way of Chinese culture that is thousands of years old. Wushu was developed to help keep the people happy with their traditions, but many real applications have been removed entirely from the art. The Chinese Government is now realizing what it has lost with the 'change' of the kung fu and is seeking to restore it to some of its former ability and richness.

Steve

[Scythefall]

Originally posted by Brad

If you're seriously interested in application ask how/if it's trained and all that. The athleticism you gain through modern wushu even if learned purely as a performance art can be pretty valuable though.

I agree with that 100%. I take from a traditional school and even then I always ask when learning a new form and I see a move that is awkward(at first) I'll ask how it is used in a fight. Learning the fighting application really sets how your mind interprets the move.

Even if a move doesn't seem like a practical move, remember that it may have chi gung roots, but hopefully, your Sifu can explain to you what the moves are and what they represent.