Disgruntle Jeet Kune Do'er

[Ren Blade]

I posted that Praying Mantis clip of the guys demo'ing in Korea video up in a Jeet Kune Do messege board. I just wanted to share. And this one user on there is like knocking on Praying Mantis claiming Jeet Kune Do's superiority of the end all be all. I'm thinking jeez. I just wanted to share a video and I'm not knocking on Jeet Kune Do. Well, here's his comment.

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thread?forumid=99869&messageid=1067437648&lp=1067610209
cooljvc
(Login cooljvc)
praying mantis kung fu..? October 30 2003, 7:39 PM

hello everyone..

i saw one of ur clips on that praying mantis kung fu.. and i dont think its anything to brag about.. praying mantis kung fu are fixed positions and restricted movement.. it has limitations. its an art more for show rather then for fighting. like a dance. a jkd fighter can easily over power a praying mantis kung fu guy. we have more mobility and we have no limitations. no fixed positions and we think hit.. they think immobilize or they taunt the other guy. in bruce lee's way of the intercepting fist, we try and get the fight over as soon as possible. cause when we are forced to fight.. we fight to destroy. just thought i'd comment on that.. specially since this is a jeet kune do web site and not a praying mantis kung fu web site.

I like the site actually and like participating in it. But guys like these, the way he posts kinda reveals to me that he is insecure bout who he is, what he knows and does, that he feel he needs to defend JKD when I'm not attacking it to begin with. He doesn't seem to understand JKD all that much himself whether he does that or not by the way he's talking.

What do you think?

[BeiTangLang]

I think its a troll & not worthy of being discussed in this forum. Please don't cross post stuff like this again please.
~BTL

[Ren Blade]

Ok. Sorry.

[ursa major]

I think let it go. The internet is a public place -- you said your bit and he said his bit. Life is too short to waste on go-no-where-debates.

Go practice a couple of hundred ou-lou-choi's instead. Great stuff.

Best regards,
UM.

[mantis108]

First and foremost, Ren Blade, I am glad that you spread the "word" about PM kung fu. I think as PM stylists we all love to hear honest opinions of our art regardless. I think the comments was fair and merits a response. So I share my view with everyone here.

i saw one of ur clips on that praying mantis kung fu.. and i dont think its anything to brag about..

Personally, I agreed there is nothing to brag about kung fu at all. We are just sharing as other arts are sharing on the internet. I believe that anyone, who studies Kung Fu long enough, knows this well.

praying mantis kung fu are fixed positions and restricted movement.. it has limitations.

I am sorry to say this is a misguided statment. Anyone who has real practical knowledge about any fighting art knows this is superficial observation at best. I could take a boxer working on his jab "slowly" while checking for "correct form", a Thai boxer working on his shin kick, or BJJer working on his guard position and draw the same conclusion. That's just because I was making an observation at a given point of time. Argueable, the fine tuning period is unexplicably long in many CMA styles including Mantis.

As for limitations, any art including the JKD has limitations. For a lack of better analogy, check out the Matrix. As long as you are in this world and live as a human; therefore, thinking and behaving like one, you will have limitations. It is the law of physics. Now I am not sure which form of JKD this person does or refers to, I know there are JKD principles or theories that makes JKD into JKD. Otherwise any joe smack street brawler can claim to be JKDist. Is brawling (re: frailing the limbs) really an art? May be we have all been fooled by Bruce that he turned his brawling passion into an distinctive combative art by putting it down on papers - no more no less. If there is no limitations please explain to me why there are such principles as Hinge and Ball, Socket, etc... and how these are not limiting? How about the tools? If the tools (boxing, Trapping of Wing Chun, Savate, etc...) is not limiting why would JKD add and add stuff like BJJ, Kali and all? If by adding means more, then why Bruce Lee preached less is more? Confusion is only one of the limitations of JKD.

Mantis simply put its combat perspective with its own term. Now, my friend, that's being "original". You only have limitation if you are trying to imitate the original. If you work through it, you can be the original. Have anyone wonder why there are so many styles of PM in existance? Because each branch's progenitor becomes an original through work with the original. This shows the "aliveness" of the mantis art(s). This is progressive evolution not some cult creationism can compare to.

its an art more for show rather then for fighting. like a dance. a jkd fighter can easily over power a praying mantis kung fu guy.

I don't think presumptions is going to help anyone. But I would love for him to meet some serious practioners of PM. May be when he meet up with those Korean PM fighters, he could have a better graspe of PM fighting is about. Of course, there are others on this board that I can easily name that could help change his mind. But what's the point? *sigh* :(

we have more mobility and we have no limitations. no fixed positions and we think hit.. they think immobilize or they taunt the other guy.

Here's the limitaions thing again. What exactly is that - eye gouging, bite, eblows, throws, or ground fighting? Which of this can PM not do? I am intrigue by this no limitations comment. Does this mean if I don't look like I kickbox with whatever add ons (ground grappling and what not) I am having limitations? Think hit, IMHO, that's trading blows. Pardon me, that's good old western cowboy mentality and I got news for him - boxing rules are designed based on that for the "show". Immobilize - ah, another great volcaburary from Bruce. Clearly this is a result of numerous failed trapping exercises. But has he checked out the conditions of the failure to trap? This is sounds like throwing the bady out with the water to me.

in bruce lee's way of the intercepting fist, we try and get the fight over as soon as possible.

I just felt the ground shooked when someone hammer down with the JKD bible. :D ;) :p I believe when it comes to fighting anyone would want to finish it as quick as possible. I have not met any Sifu in Mantis or otherwise that told me to prolong the fight. The problem is you are dealing with a live and resistive opponent(s). How to control the sitution to your favor that's where the arts differ. In other words, turning chaos into control at all levels by your own means (hopefully with original insights).

cause when we are forced to fight.. we fight to destroy.

No arguement from here since we strive for the samething.

just thought i'd comment on that.. specially since this is a jeet kune do web site and not a praying mantis kung fu web site.

I welcome the comment. The only thing that I don't understand is whether this final statement is from the point of view of a Jun Fan Kung Fu/JKD purist or that of a JKD concept camp. But no matter, I think the only limitation is that we see only what we wish to see. That is no difference from being blind.

Mantis108

[Skarbromantis]

Its a Praying Mantis, board, why cant he post it here?

Dont say sorry, its Pm related, so post away.

BTL, trying to scare awy new PM brothers, with your attitude, isnt cool.

Take a chill pill.

Skard1

[CaptinPickAxe]

There are always those guys who belive their style is superior no matter what. They tend to be rather thick headed, and even if they had their asses handed to them, they would still find excuses. The best thing to do is to blow those people off.

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by Skarbromantis
Its a Praying Mantis, board, why cant he post it here?

Dont say sorry, its Pm related, so post away.

BTL, trying to scare awy new PM brothers, with your attitude, isnt cool.

Take a chill pill.

Skard1

I'll tell you why. He posted mantis videos on a jkd thread; basicly trolling himself. Then when he received a hostile reply, he cross posted it back into this forum. Trolling to the max....
If someone posted a jkd video here would it have been appropriate? No.
I do not wish to scare off honest pm practitioners; but trolls, yes,...yes I do.

But for those that do it accidently (as I believe the case was here) I just mention it & go on unless someone calls me on it (like you did,...with your attitude attached).
Since its on the board, wasn't deleted or modified, lets discuss!

[Ren Blade]

I didn't think I did anything wrong cause at the top of that forum under it's Jeet Kune Do title it says: "An on-line forum to discuss Jeet Kune Do and other martial arts."

So seeing it says other martial arts, I thought it's ok. If Jeet Kune Do was to adapt and absorb useful techniques of other styles, then I saw nothing wrong with the exposure of Praying Mantis. Plus sometimes they talk about Muay Thai or Jujutsu and those are other martial arts as well. Some even posted a Hung Gar clip in there too.

But I don't want to break any rules here. So I'll try to watch my step here and not to step on any toes because I really love Praying Mantis and love this forum.

[BeiTangLang]

Tis not a rule bro,...just trying to keep trolling down. My bad.
Cross post away. As long as it has to do with mantis, who cares! :D
With appologies to skar1

[Albino_Mantis]

Here is what I posted on that site (please note the story I have in the post below about Lai Sifu is something he relayed to me years ago when I first started my training):

Quote
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hello everyone..

i saw one of ur clips on that praying mantis kung fu.. and i dont think its anything to brag about.. praying mantis kung fu are fixed positions and restricted movement.. it has limitations. its an art more for show rather then for fighting. like a dance. a jkd fighter can easily over power a praying mantis kung fu guy. we have more mobility and we have no limitations. no fixed positions and we think hit.. they think immobilize or they taunt the other guy. in bruce lee's way of the intercepting fist, we try and get the fight over as soon as possible. cause when we are forced to fight.. we fight to destroy. just thought i'd comment on that.. specially since this is a jeet kune do web site and not a praying mantis kung fu web site.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JKD isn’t a style but Bruce Lee’s personal training philosophy. If you doubt me, re-read the first page of the Toa of Jeet Kune Do. If you haven’t read that book or if after you have read it you still disagree, then you need to have an operation that will remove your head from your colon.

All martial arts start out fixed by “forms” even “JKD”, its how you learn. The “form” may be something as short as hitting a bag or practicing rolls, or a form can be a long series of movements that help the practitioner train the body to move. Now, Bruce Lee was correct when he talked about different schools and styles being too rooted in keeping to the form, but if you re-watch and read his old interview he does not say ALL styles fall into this category.

Bruce Lee was a strong supporter of research. People forget that to create JKD, Bruce read over two thousand books, study multiple styles of Martial Arts ranging from the standard Eastern styles (i.e. Wang Chun, Tae Kwon Do, Judo, etc.) to the non-standard (wrestling styles from India), in addition to studying Western styles of combat (Boxing, Wresting, Fencing, Savate, etc). He then rounded out his theory by watching different sports, such as American Football, Basket Ball, Baseball, Soccer, Gymnastics, etc. From watching and participating in all of these activities, combat bases and non-combat based, he developed his theories on power, economy of motion, strategy, and combat endurance. From these activities, he realized the need for repetition to create muscle memory, thus allowing the body to express itself as needed and freeing the mind to be in the aliveness of the situation.

JKD was effective for Bruce Lee because it was comprised of the moves and strategies he researched and found worked him. But it’s important to note what work for him doesn’t mean “the easiest to execute,” it means that those moves and strategies fit the form of expression that Bruce Lee felt fit his personality and thought process. If you look at Bruce’s notes, he new vastly more then he used on a regular basis. He was a strong supporter of training the move or strategy until you thoroughly understand it and can use it on command easily and decisively. Then and only then, from a place of understanding, is the martial artist to decide whether to keep or discard the action from their list of self expression choices.

Lastly, Bruce Lee held any Martial Artist, who trained hard, in high regard. He felt there was a difference between those who trained to perform sets and those who trained to really fight. That being said, there was a time when Bruce Lee met the late Lai Sifu. Lai Sifu was a great Praying Mantis practitioner. One day he was staying in Oakland and needed a place to train (and he didn’t feel like crossing the bridge to train in San Francisco’s Chinatown), so he went to Bruce Lee’s school. He paid a floor fee and worked out in the corner for a couple of hours. While Lai Sifu was training, Bruce Lee had his classes go on like normal. When Lai Sifu was done with his workout and was leaving, Bruce Lee stopped his class and said, “You see that man, he is the real thing. He has trained his body to be able to express itself with fluidity and power. That is what I am trying to teach you.” Lai Sifu and Bruce Lee were never friends, and their lives never really crossed paths after that day. What that event does show is, to Bruce Lee the style didn’t matter; it was the practitioner that matter. How much do you understand what you know, can you use it for real, can you use it in a way that will accomplish your desired goal, and can you use it without having to engage the Mind. Those things are what mattered to Bruce Lee. To say otherwise would demonstrate that you missed the point on what he was trying to teach.

Here endith the lesson. (gotta love Sean Connery) ;)

[l@zylee]

Ren Blade, I am familiar with the board you talk about and I must say its one of the worst martial arts forums on the web.

I study Foshan Wing Chun and I came across one of Bruce Lee's books which got me intrigued about Jeet Kune Do, through this I found my way to the mentioned forum. Since then I have been an observer not a participater of the board for a few months and I must say that I think that if that board is anything to go by the world of Jeet Kune do severley sucks and is full of people that talk absolute garbage! . Most of them don't realise that they have completely missed Bruce Lee's whole point (inc. So called "Sifus"), Unfortunately because of some comments BL doodled 30 odd years ago about CMA they hate our styles with a passion more so I think than Japanese or Korean styles. The odd few actually recognise Wing Chun's association with JKD but most of them point towards Western Boxing as the only other MA worth talking about. I think that some of BL's concepts should be tried and tested by all martial artists, but as far as I am concerned there is no such thing as JEET KUNE DO.

Sorry, I had to get that off my chest.

Cheers

Lee:p

[Nick8stepPM]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
There are always those guys who belive their style is superior no matter what.

Well any style is effective only if and only then if the student of the style knows how to apply what they have learned. So no style is superior over the other in any way.