Energy in SLT...

[Grond]

With what kind of energy do y'all play Siu Lim Tao? I know it is played in many different ways...so I'm wondering what different aspects are trained by the variations in the energy or amount of force used to perform the movements.

Also, would anyone care to comment on their method for the first section...any particular concentration techniques or visualizations? The reason I ask is that I know it is generally played very slowly, and I sometimes have a hard time keeping my mind on what I'm doing. Thanks alot!!

[foolinthedeck]

my 2 cents

no 'visualisations' you can stand in front of the mirror for 1/2 hour and do it looking at youself or you can watch MTV, or you can watch school girls out of your window - as long as it doesnt distract your structure and relaxation.

if u want then just count breaths

[anerlich]

At my academy we don't do the first part particularly slowly. "Slower is better" IMHO runs into the law of diminishing returns fairly quickly (or slowly depending on your POV). There is tension in the forearm as you push out, which is relaxed as you do the movements before bringing it back relaxed (than yang going out increases the yin coming back, if you like). Even while bringing it back, we try to incorporate "forward energy".

It CAN be hard keeping your mind on the job. That's part of the value of the very slow SLT (IMO, that's also where the value ends). Treat it as a challenge to stay in the present, focused on what you are doing.

I recommend Eckhardt Tolle's "The Power of Now" for a good discussion of this mindfullness, pretty much free of any religious baggage (other than sounding slightly too New Age for my taste, but still pretty good).

I've found it useful to concentrate on the breath, or to visualise water or electricity flowing out the arm, but that's just me.

AS for the rest, we work with three emphases: slow/precise; medium/relaxed and flowing; fast/speed. That way you can cover most bases and work most desirable qualities.

I would avoid doing it front of the TV by choice, but if you're going to watch Jerry Springer anyway, better do it in SLT stance rather than eating potato chips lying on the couch.

[namron]

two more cents worth.

when I first started my training our instructor ran the first part of the form very very slowly.

IMO the main benefits of this were probably stance and arm conditioning as well as the mental conditioning to see the form through without skimping on your focus, rising in your stance or becoming lazy with your energy. Quite a few circular puddles of sweat were built up this way but it did cut into the class time where other skills needed to be taught.

I still remember with a mixture of mirth and horror David Cheung pacing up an down the class growling at various intervals to students about their posture. He always reminded me a a drill sergeant.

These days the first part of SLT form in our club is run at a faster pace, this is probably a reflection of the times for good or for bad as class times are scheduled for 1hr slots rather than 1.5hr+ that used to be the norm.

My advice is to pick a point at eye level in the distance then focus on keeping your stance from slouching and focus on relaxing the arm while keeping the energy forward. Focus on the basics an try not to look 'around' the class or keep track of how many fook/wu repetitions you have left, relax your mind focus on the point you've picked and run the form.

[Keng Geng]

The energy incorporated while doing the SLT, or any form for that matter, is determined by the positioning of the hand/arm. There is no energy that is put into anything, and "slowly" does not equal energy.

There arent' various energies put into a tan sau for example. There are various tan sau's, and therefore various energies for the nature of the movement.

In many WC systems a tan sau is a tan sau. In others there are various forms of the tan sau, as well as different names to identify them.

[TansauNg]

Hi Guys,

U can see GGM IP Man (...and other wing chun clips) performing the siu nim tau set on my web site:

www.wtlombardia.it

[anerlich]

U can see GGM IP Man

When was Ip Man promoted to GGM? And who promoted him?

And really, if Leung Ting is now a GGM, shouldn't Ip Man now be a GGGM?

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I find these titular shenanigans a source of endless fascination.

[old jong]

Gee!...:D

[yuanfen]

To the best of my knowledge Ip Man did not call himself
GM- he was someone's sifu, si gung etc. The standard structure of gung fu relationships.

Not a matter of false humility- he did not need a fluffy title.
Even though folks in HK had heard a lot about CLF and Hung Ga,
word got around about IM Man, his abilities and the style that he taught.


BTW there is a nice little example of IM's kicking ability in Ip Ching's book about his father. When he was younger he kicked more but evn in later HK years he surprised folks. he and some students
had gone to eat at a restaurant. As was often the case, there wasa stack of newspapers on the floor for sale. IM had an expensive pen in his pocket. When IM bent over in the busy area to pick up a paper the pickpocket slipped his hand in and took IMs pen. Shazam- from nowhere came a kick sending the pickpocket flying about 6 feet away. IM then asked one his students
to retrieve the pen and return it to him.

[cha kuen]

Just to throw in the mix..

Tsui Seung Tin and his group nowadays concentrate A LOT ON VISUALIZATION. The entire form has specific visualizations for each movement, very unique to his lineage only.

After practicing SLT for a while, maybe a year or more, you will feel there's a unique energy thing and you'll feel it running up and down the body. Like something moviing inside of you, traveling, like a smal minnow.

Just throwing this in to let you all know there's other stuff out there.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by anerlich

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I find these titular shenanigans a source of endless fascination.
Andrew,

Titles are vewwy, vewwy impotent to sum pipple. :rolleyes:

Regards,

[Pika817]

Hello Everybody,

This is my first post on this site, so please be patient with me. In response to the original post of this thread, in the lineage that I study, it seems that the engeries in the SLT is created by the tension of the thumb. The tension of the thumb creates the foward intentions of the arm. For example, in the Tan Sau, the arm is relaxed, but the thumb is tensed as to create a "pull back" tension. This backwards tension creates a foward intention of the elbow, and in turn, the entire arm. It takes a very long time for the Tan Sau to extend through this motion (it usually can take anywhere from 20 to 30 minutes). This was explained to me as a type of qi-gong, or internal application to the SLT, and that the yin-yang is the backwards/forwards motion of the thumb/arm.

The same applies for the Wu Sau. In the case of the Fook Sau, it seems that this energy is created through the pull-back tension of the wrist.

The first part of the SLT, if done properly, according to what I was told, is supposed to take about an hour and a half to perform.

I believe that most schools do not teach this as it is extremely time consuming, and take a lot of practice. My sifu doesn't have us do the SLT this way as it would take up most of our class time. We where told to practise this while at home, or whenever we have free time.

For those of you that are curious, my Wing Chun style is Ip Ching. I would be interested to hear what family/lineage everybody is from, and what the differences are between them?

Cheers,

Pika817

[PaulH]

Terence Niehoff wrote an insightful article related to your question.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/why/articles/contemporary/niehoff_drives.html

Perhaps it may help you.

Regards,

PH

[cha kuen]

Pika,

Wow an hour and a half!? Do you practice it for over an hour at home?

[Pika817]

Cha Kuen,

Yes, 1.5 hours. I usually practice it when I'm watching tv. I just open up the stance, and watch 3 tv shows, (or an episode of star trek plus a sit com ;) )

But I must admit that I don't do it for 1.5 hours very often. Maybe once every 2 weeks. It's just not feasible for me to spend that much time on it. I usually cheat a little, (as in, I don't completely rely on the thumb tension to push my arm foward... I use a bit of the tricep) and it takes me about 30 mins. I usually go through it every 3 days at 30 mins, every day at least twice at 5 mins, and once every 2 weeks at 1.5 hours.

I have to say, it helps to make strong legs!

But in class, we only have 2 hours, so we do the forms in about 2 mins.

I haven't been doing Wing Chun for a very long time, but so far, I can't figure out how to use application of using the thumb tension as your forward intention.

The theory is that that thumb-tension foward intention is enough foward energy to detect the other person's intentions. This stops you from "pushing" when doing chi sau.

I have touched hands w/ Eric Li (one of Ip Ching's students), and amazingly, I can "feel" his intentions. I find that I lose contact with his arm without knowing.

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by Pika817
In the case of the Fook Sau, it seems that this energy is created through the pull-back tension of the wrist. The Fook Sau requires the thumb to go forward, closer to the index finger, allowing the movement of the hand inward. If you leave the thumb back, fook sau is very difficult. The thumb at the index finger, creates the proper tension. And of course let us not forget our back muscles, which supports these operations.

[Phenix]

Action based on idea is very superficial, is not true action at all, is only ideation, which is merely the thought process going on.


One must put all controll, concentration, narrow focus away only then there is freedom. Put those heaven earth... . Chan Dna.....emei..., Put those Lines..... all must go.

Otherwise, one is traping onself. the repetition of moves in order to reach some peculiar state of mastering which is really stagnation. one can understand intellectually that all relationship, alll action, takes place within the space created by object, lines, center, or by the.... in that space there is never freedom. its like a goat tied to a post, who can wander only the lenght of its tether.

Action means doing, moving. but when one has idea, it is merely ideation going on, thought-process going on in relation to action. if there is no idea, what would happen? you are what you are. You are uncharitable, you are unforgiving, you are wrong......Can you remain with that? if you do, then see what happen?

if i see the necessity of being clean. it is very simply; i go wash. but if it is an ideal that i should be clean, then what happen? cleanliness is then postponed or superficial.

A narrow dogma minded repeating a set is sill petty dogma minded. it can repeated ten million times a day ; it is till a narrow, shallow, superficial, dogma minded.

some says, It is the silence between Sounds which makes the music... I will say that is still a goat tied to a post

Silence is everywhere but the dull mind never see it. Not to mention those who loves to fomulate things.

Why all these mind stuffs?

"everything has a begining and end" ---- Matrix revolution.

and Energy begining and end starts with understanding of mind not Shao Lin Chan Philosophy.

[yuanfen]

Hendrik- one has to begin somewhere. The correct idea under guidance helps make the wing chun motions clearer- and repeating the motions often is not necessarily dogma. Controlling ones muscles is an important element in freedom.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Hendrik- one has to begin somewhere. The correct idea under guidance helps make the wing chun motions clearer- and repeating the motions often is not necessarily dogma. Controlling ones muscles is an important element in freedom.


I agree with you.

Phenix burn itself to ashes now...... so long.....

[old jong]

Not to be forgotten is the fact that Wing Chun motions are ....Motions!
A tan sau or fook or bong are not the end of the motion but the whole process of doing them.The energy, mind focus or whatever must be maintained throughout the motion.

[PaulH]

I often smile at the melodramatic way of which the Phoenix once again consumed poor Hendrik in flame. I can't help the fellow if he likes being burned that much! Who knows perhaps one day he will achieve that enlightenment escaping for the last time all physical bondages and cravings of the human body.

Meanwhile this process of shedding the gross outer shells or impurities of self to get to the unbearable lightness of being or one's "freedom" need not be that painful in my presumptous opinion! I would like to share with you, learned doctors and teachers of many arts and of our distinguished and honorable forum, a true story of Dr. Kovach just to support my thesis on this historic Friday! If you fall asleep reading this excerp from "The mind" by R.M. Restak then you just made my night!

'Reasoning and communication underlie all human thought. The experience of Joseph Kovach, who was a 15th years old hungarian schoolboy when he was imprisoned in a Soviet gulag, is a powerful example of this. For 4 years, he lived in an isolated, frightening environment, each day an eternity. "When I look at the months, the years, they were empty," Kovach remembers. "There's nothing in terms of thinking, of planning, of remembering the past or planning for the future. It felt almost as though I was hibernating."
Then Kovach was transported to a camp that housed a small library. "it was an altogether new world for me. I suddenly discovered an escape out of the starkness of the prison world into the beautiful world of words and poetry. But it was more than that. It marked the opening up of a whole new sense of thinking and of intellectual activity. From then on, I had an immense preoccupation and interest in anything relating to ideas, to language, to anything I could learn about. Although I had no way of doing anything about my physical condition, I was free. I had access to the inner workings of my own mind, my thinking, and my ideas. I was completely free to think whatever I wanted and to combine my ideas in whatever way I wanted. And that gave me freedom."...
"Ultimately," says Kovach, "it is our mental apparatus, our capacity to think, our capacity to deal with ideas, our capacity to find unities, coherences in variations- that's what makes us free and that's what makes us human. We have a way of creating worlds for ourselves, in our heads, and sharing those worlds."

Regards,

PH

[anerlich]

everything has a begining and end

The mobius strip does not.

The "WCK Origin Theories" thread appears to have no end either.

Action based on idea is very superficial

Martin Luther King and Ghandhi (sp?) might have disagreed.

[yuanfen]

Amerlich sez:The "WCK Origin Theories" thread appears to have no end either.

((It does seem to have taken on a life and pathology of it's own))


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Action based on idea is very superficial
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Martin Luther King and Ghandhi (sp?) might have disagreed.

((I think-true. Spelling- Gandhi- my late Dad tended to him when he came to Calcutta-now Kolkatta in the 1940s.
There is the notion of karma yoga---liberation through right action.))

[Phenix]

silence will meltdown all idea and virtual reality... attain the silence which is alive............

[PaulH]

Interesting, Hendrik! How do you sharpen your mind to hear the silence?

Regards,

PH

[old jong]

Must be the same as seeing blackness!...;)

[PaulH]

Funny, Old Jong. There is a samurai sword practice of slicing the falling waterdrop into two. It seems related somewhat to Hendrik's whimsical remark.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Interesting, Hendrik! How do you sharpen your mind to hear the silence?

Regards,

PH

Silence is the base of simple.

fomulars, cleveness... all is a sign of complicated and have no idea about what is the simple.

Silence is every where....
you don't sharpen, you just don't get attach.

certainly those who advocate formulars and time and space.... will not understand this.. because real attainment is not a derivation of logic ........... what time? what space? what heaven? what human? what eart? after entering the flow?



Sutra:
¡§World Honored One, I remember when, as many kalpas
ago as there are sands in the Ganges, there was a Buddha in the
world named Contemplating the World¡¦s Sounds. It was under
that Buddha that I brought forth the Bodhi-resolve. That
Buddha taught me to enter samadhi through a process of
hearing and reflecting.

Initially, I entered the flow through hearing and forgot
objective states. Since the sense-objects and sense-organs were
quiet, the two characteristics of movement and stillness
crystallized and did not arise. After that, gradually advancing,
the hearing and what was heard both disappeared. Once the
hearing was ended, there was nothing to rely on, and awareness
and the objects of awareness became empty. When the
emptiness of awareness reached an ultimate perfection,
emptiness and what was being emptied then also ceased to be.
Since production and extinction were gone, still extinction was
revealed.

Suddenly I transcended the mundane and transcendental
worlds, and throughout the ten directions a perfect brightness
prevailed. I obtained two supreme states. ...." Surangama

[PaulH]

Thanks! What do you consider of simple action that is composed of several complex actions! Is this simple enough?

[Ernie]

simple is in the doing , not in all the details of how it's done

but then again that would be just to simple:)

[PaulH]

What does it mean especially the "did not arise" phrase?

"Initially, I entered the flow through hearing and forgot
objective states. Since the sense-objects and sense-organs were
quiet, the two characteristics of movement and stillness
crystallized and did not arise."

Regards,

PH

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Thanks! What do you consider of simple action that is composed of several complex actions! Is this simple enough?



relased the scrupture from the stone it was in is not an easy process or task but you only have to release it once.

that is different then carrying a baggage of rules and flowchart around all life long with label simple but only to create ROBOT clone :D

[EmptyCup]

virgins get to stand in YKM with parallel feet

non virgins get to stand in YKM with pigeon feet
I hear it prevents energy from leaking from the wu yum...

[PaulH]

Hendrik,

If one has silence as the base, why do the Buddhist texts refer often to the phrase: "Thus I have heard"

Regards,

PH

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

If one has silence as the base, why do the Buddhist texts refer often to the phrase: "Thus I have heard"

Regards,

PH


IF one is not silence then how can one listern? think about it.

[PaulH]

Thus I have heard! Got cha! Thanks!

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Thus I have heard! Got cha! Thanks!

only when there is silence and embracing. there is no fear.

placing all those lines, points, diamention, time, space..... as indication of space time energy.... that is a sign of fear. fill with fear. it is stuffy. can't be advance art with all those fear.

See, if when we listern. if we listern with embracing instead of put different sign and block.. we will understand we will learn the truth.

If we are fear. we put all the block and sign and sensor ship. so that we react as soon as they get to certain level. That is the sign of we are affraid we have no confident to even listern to what others will said. we affraid we cannot control.....


Similar with WCK's chi sau. it is different with other so called shao lin arts, because we have no fear to listern. thus WCK chi sau is not same catagory with those Kiu sau where the purpose is stick and tangel and trap..... as the kuen kuit said, come retain, goes send away, using silence to subdue action. using silence to subdue action. not those 12 or 108 kiu sau..... with Silence we have Kwan Yin's 10,000 arms .

Listerning itself is stick or Chi. no need to make another chi. embracing itself it the capacity of absorbing..... which is a character of silence. so no need those line and fomulars. listern and embracing the energy of others and there we can solve it naturally. isn't it beautiful?



SLT, small little training, :D, learn to listern while talking.... learn to listern while stretch your arm. always live within the silence.

advance art has no fear. thus, art is nature and response to reality as it is naturally. forget all those big idea and small idea. World doesn't work according to our idea. we have to listern and embrace with silence. silence is also non attachment.

it is not about control. it is about flow and chanelling with the energy.

The greatest energy in SLT is silence.


:D

Certainly, what I post here can be and expected will be used and copy but credit to other's ancestors in other coming book. see shurangama has it all with copy right. hahahaha

[PaulH]

Beautiful and deep sentiments indeed! You just remind me of Gilbran again.

"Your hearts know in silence the secrets of the days and the nights.

But your ears thirst for the sound of your heart's knowledge.

You would know in words that which you have always know in thought.

You would touch with your fingers the naked body of your dreams.

And it is well you should.

The hidden well-spring of your soul must needs rise and run murmuring to the sea;

And the treasure of your infinite depths would be revealed to your eyes.

But let there be no scales to weigh your unknown treasure;

And seek not the depths of your knowledge with staff or sounding line.

For self is a sea boundless and measureless.

Say not, "I have found the truth," but rather, "I have found a truth."

Say not, "I have found the path of the soul." Say rather, "I have met the soul walking upon my path."

For the soul walks upon all paths. "

Regards,

PH

[Ernie]

hendrik
very well put , that silence you speak of , is found through experience as well spending time in a moment of chaos , letting go and accepting it , then being natural with it ,
instead of trying to quantify in and crystalize the possibilities , how does one make a formula about unexpectidly slipping on a banana peal during a fight :D
you just flow with out resistance or ego or a care in the world .
let the enemy show you the way , how could we do this if we are to busy trying to impose our will

p.s.
i will be making a copy so send me the bill
:D

[Phenix]

Ernie,

That is not mine. That was the key passed down from our Red Boat ancetors such as Yik Kam. it belongs to everyone who is the decendent from Red Boat.

We all use the kuen kuit. and
Kuen Kuit said, come retain, goes send away, using silence to subdue action.

There is no secret teaching. and the theory is from the silence of Shurangama. Thus, it is not personal intepretation but it is accord to the teaching of Buddha. it never been lost thus it never have to be found. it is there all the time, thus it is nothing to be the original or the olderst. we can trace every bit of it instead of making claim and making up new term with heretic non realistic idea.


If you want to send the money.
In this thanks giving season, Send it to the orphanage or elderly home in the name of our Opera Ancestors. they are a part of silence a part we all have to aware of. The elderly is not different to our ancestors or our parents. The kids are not different to those who lost thier parents in the war. and just a little care from our heart, thier world will be warm in this cold winter. just a small little training, but it makes the world warm like spring time --- with hope. It is not about Winning. It is about caring. To win only one feel happy. to care atleast two feel the warm. Who said WCK is to kill? I say WCK is to build a better future with very advance art and high standard of humanistic caring.


have a peace, warm, and Happy thanks giving to all.

[Ernie]

and to all a good night :)
i have had it explained by gary as use your calm to stop his ruff
and by hawkins as greet his symphony with your silence .
by paul vunak as making a priliminary analysis ,cultivate your awarness.
by my boxing coach learn to read your opponent , project your senses , feel with your eyes .

all of them strees a calm empty yet alert mind
i guess some things are universal in combat , no matter were it comes from .

but i will tip my hat to you for your rendition and your source . be well my friend and thank you for sharing

[PaulH]

Indeed, I could not quite get what Gary says about using your calmness to beat his roughness until today. Silence is wise! Good night!

[Phenix]

Ok,
after knowing about silence, and
after one uses pillow to experience silence and embracing.... instead of fear, regid, and reject.....

we need to know how to issue power when we need it and we want it.

First, let's get a Fountain Pen. The type like parker 51, so Rene can trace it is such pen as parker 51 in the history. not a making up. :D

http://www.rickconner.net/penoply/park.04.html

lets start with examine the filling system and how the ink flow out while writing.

ok, so it involve 1, vacumatic 2, gravitation 3, the person who target the pen's nip to write naturally...

[PaulH]

Hendrik,

The ink flow in your pen. How do you make it squirt like jet spray when it flows naturally into the target? I thought the pen is mightier than the bone!

Also what does gravity have to do with the flow?

Regards,

PH

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

The ink flow in your pen. How do you make it squirt like jet spray when it flows naturally into the target? I thought the pen is mightier than the bone!

Also what does gravity have to do with the flow?

Regards,

PH


Pual,

Jet Spray? HAHAHAHA



Ok So the Kuen Kuit said,

ÈçÈç²»¶¯. ÊÇÕæêŽê–. ±¦Ë¹²»„Ó, °lÓÃÄ˳£.

or

Thus Thus not moving,
that is the real Ying yang.
The jewel not moving.
application is natural.

So,

"Thus Thus not moving means Silence.
"That is real Yin Yang" means Silence is the source of Yin and Yang.
"The jewel not moving " means one always is within the silence.
"Application is natural " means one doesn't have to plan and control and ..... it comes natural.

In another word, silence is the source of every transformation. Stay "within" the silence, and the application is naturally adapt to all condition.



And, the kuen kuit continous:

²»„Ó„ÓÉú, Òâ„ÓÉñµ½. é_ºÏÉý½µ

or
Not moving give birth to moving.
Yee move and Shen is there.
Expand, Gather, Raise, Drop.


"not moving give birth to moving" means response arise from silence.
"Yee move and shen is there" means The intention activate and the energy is there.
"expand, Gather, Raise, Drop" means in order to bring the jing into the physical world there are 4 types of activity.

in another words,

Response arise from silence, when one set the intention the energy will be there in the same instant. however, one needs to utilize the expand, gather, raise, Drop 4 methods to operate and brought the energy to the physical world in a very general speaking.




See, I don't mind to post and share and explain the Kuen Kuit the best I know and I am not perfect. as above, it is about the source and creation. But with a condition that we all have to give credit to the ancestors from the red boat and the white crane....Emei Mt..... ect. Respect ALL GMs and not screw them and calling our GMs from different lineages Bast**D who don't know who is thier ancestors. IMHO.

Now you probably see, there is a system. from the surangama to the above E12P kuen kuit on how to create. from top to bottom from big picture to details..... and then later the five elements manuval on transformation, neutralization, mutual grow..... then how SunTzu will fit into the stratergy part....... Nothing lost thus nothing found. Nothing change with time thus there is no ORIGINAL but Silence.
Silence is the original. he who doesn't understand silence but operate in the Heaven and Earth and Human post silence state or Yin Yang realm doesn't know the source of creation thus becomes mechanical.

It is about creation. and Creation is the twin brothers of Destruction.

it is thanks giving time. so don't forgot to be caring. otherwise we will wipe ourself out because we want to win. if you find these kuen kuit is usefull. just remember great power comes with great responsibilies. great martial art system comes with caring for others. hero is about helping others not about killing others. be compassionate like Kwan Yin. That 10,000 arms raise from the compassionate heart.


Now, back to Pen. :D
So, let's look at the Filling system first.
we Gather and raise or Fill the Inkwell. We Expand or drop or Discharge the Ink.....
Think about it. and that parkert 51 is your body.

and how is Gather, Expand.... turn into physical form? Ngoi Lin, Noi Lien, Fok Tan..........? that is your job while practicing SLT and teach us later. or . you can ask Jim from LJ village and Diaz for help . :D


I guess phenix has to truly vanished form this earth now all of it has turn into ashes nothing left to be burn................ so long forever. :D



-------------------------

Everything has a begining and an end ------------ Matrix Revolution
and often Ending is Begining because Ending bring one back to the source --------- silence.

[PaulH]

I understand now why stillness and motion are crystallized and did not arise. Here Ging to the Kuen Kuits! Without your timely explanations I doub that I will ever get it thought. So my hearty thanks on your giving on the Kuit's meanings!

I take it that my jet spray comment successfully win a few laughs from you at least! Ha! Ha!

A parting salute shot from my Gilbran to you just now for the moment:

"Then said a rich man, "Speak to us of Giving."
And he answered:

You give but little when you give of your possessions.

It is when you give of yourself that you truly give.

For what are your possessions but things you keep and guard for fear you may need them tomorrow?

And tomorrow, what shall tomorrow bring to the overprudent dog burying bones in the trackless sand as he follows the pilgrims to the holy city?

And what is fear of need but need itself?

Is not dread of thirst when your well is full, thirst that is unquenchable?

There are those who give little of the much which they have - and they give it for recognition and their hidden desire makes their gifts unwholesome.

And there are those who have little and give it all.

These are the believers in life and the bounty of life, and their coffer is never empty.

There are those who give with joy, and that joy is their reward.

And there are those who give with pain, and that pain is their baptism.

And there are those who give and know not pain in giving, nor do they seek joy, nor give with mindfulness of virtue;

They give as in yonder valley the myrtle breathes its fragrance into space.

Through the hands of such as these God speaks, and from behind their eyes He smiles upon the earth.

It is well to give when asked, but it is better to give unasked, through understanding;

And to the open-handed the search for one who shall receive is joy greater than giving

And is there aught you would withhold?

All you have shall some day be given;

Therefore give now, that the season of giving may be yours and not your inheritors'. "


Regards,

PH

[passing_through]

Hendrik:

Overall an interesting set of posts. Thanks for putting up some of your opinions. That typed, I think you need to be more careful about the opinions and assumptions you make - and how you base your comments on them.

While I like the imagry you’re trying to paint – at the same time, there is no silence if there is no ear to hear it. When there is no ear, there is no silence. Silence is a concept, an idea. Even silence is an attachment. Human beings need attachments to help them out of Samsara but in Nirvana there is no silence and no not-silence.

Trapped by your ideas of others, you live in a world of not-noise.

What are lines? What are angles? What are dimensions? Before you can be free of suffering you must realize that you suffer. Before you can be free of the realization that you suffer, you must have a path… If this were not the case, babies would be the Buddha. Yet babies don’t have compassion, they are the ultimate in selfishness.

You really ought to watch your fingers – they betray your mind. Rather than seek to understand what others share, you snip at it like a gluttonous, angry, stupid child. And of course, IMHO.

One must put all controll, concentration, narrow focus away only then there is freedom. Put those heaven earth... . Chan Dna.....emei..., Put those Lines..... all must go.

Otherwise, one is traping onself. the repetition of moves in order to reach some peculiar state of mastering which is really stagnation. one can understand intellectually that all relationship, alll action, takes place within the space created by object, lines, center, or by the.... in that space there is never freedom. its like a goat tied to a post, who can wander only the lenght of its tether.

The territory is not the map. You have to have something in order to be free of it. If you never had it, you’ll never be free of it. If you never try it, you’ll never know what you’re missing. People are born free but that’s not right now, is it? Maybe tomorrow.

fomulars, cleveness... all is a sign of complicated and have no idea about what is the simple.

You really don’t understand the formula. Too bad there isn’t any space left to enlighten you – you’re cup is full. Before you can be simple, you get complex – before a mountain is just a mountain, then a mountain is no longer a mountain, then it is. Why go through no longer a mountain? Just go from is … to is… but that’s not how things work, it is?

certainly those who advocate formulars and time and space.... will not understand this.. because real attainment is not a derivation of logic ........... what time? what space? what heaven? what human? what eart? after entering the flow?

When talking to a child, use language to reach the child – don’t discuss physics with a baby. There is no logic, no time, no space – but there is a conventional reality of mutual-interdependence – to get past it, it has to recognized for what it is.

Remember, there is a sky above the sky. Time and space, the formula… just fingers. Stop picking your nose and look there they originally pointed before your ideas of them distracted you.

that is different then carrying a baggage of rules and flowchart around all life long with label simple but only to create ROBOT clone

Do you really have no identity of your own but instead exist like a leech, sucking the life out of others?

placing all those lines, points, diamention, time, space..... as indication of space time energy.... that is a sign of fear. fill with fear. it is stuffy. can't be advance art with all those fear.

For you, maybe fear – for me, nothing like it. I don’t tell you how it feels to eat the food in your house, stop trying to tell me about the food in mine.

Similar with WCK's chi sau. it is different with other so called shao lin arts, because we have no fear to listern. thus WCK chi sau is not same catagory with those Kiu sau where the purpose is stick and tangel and trap..... as the kuen kuit said, come retain, goes send away, using silence to subdue action. using silence to subdue action. not those 12 or 108 kiu sau.....

Listerning itself is stick or Chi. no need to make another chi. embracing itself it the capacity of absorbing..... which is a character of silence. so no need those line and fomulars. listern and embracing the energy of others and there we can solve it naturally.


If your lineage doesn’t make use of Kiu Sau I would tend to put it in the category of latter development than other lineages – more likely the Red Boat timeframe. However, until more work is done on all lineages, this remains to be seen. However, you don’t understand the function of Kiu Sau and Chi Sau in HFY so you’re assumptions are pretty much meaningless – and when you share your empty assumptions and attack your empty assumptions – making a straw man again – you spread more confusion, not clarity.

advance art has no fear. thus, art is nature and response to reality as it is naturally. forget all those big idea and small idea. World doesn't work according to our idea. we have to listern and embrace with silence. silence is also non attachment.

Am I to assume that your art is an advanced art? Interesting that you suggest that we should forget big ideas and small ideas and then elsewhere brag about how your lineage has both big pictures and small details… but I guess pictures and details aren’t ideas… also interesting that the Shurangama Sutra contains ideas. If someone doesn’t read it, has he reached an advanced stage? That would seem to be the logic you are suggesting. The formula and it’s relationship to SNT in the HFY lineage is very much like the act of reading a sutra. You have to understand the ideas so that you can use them and not be bound by them. In learning how to live you are free. Odd that we agree in intent but not on the road to get there.

We all use the kuen kuit. and
Kuen Kuit said, come retain, goes send away, using silence to subdue action

That ain’t how I heard it in the Ip Man lineage….

There is no secret teaching. and the theory is from the silence of Shurangama

um… yeah… so then there’s no first moon and no second moon right? A secret is only something you don’t know…. there’s outside knowledge and inside knowledge. You know what goes on in your home at night. Should I ask your neighbors to tell me what you watched last night or ask you? You claim to know Shaolin… every piece of information was taught to all students at day one? Information wasn’t taught to people when they had the foundation to understand it? Of course there are no secrets – but can you only say that if you stay the course to get to the top of the mountain. If you don’t know something, it’s a secret. As for secret’s in the martial arts… try to learn Hakka styles about 50 years ago as a white guy.

Respect ALL GMs and not screw them and calling our GMs from different lineages Bast**D who don't know who is thier ancestors. IMHO.

IMHO? Do you have one of those?

In the sake of clarity, I did a search of VTM and HFY writings... odd that I don't see the word Bast**d used anywhere. However, when I look through your writings I see enough innuendo to cut it with a knife – and your suggest that learning martial arts is all about KILL KILL KILL (something with which I completely disagree). I see you putting words in others' mouths. I don't see other's putting words in your mouth. Even when I tried to look at your words you said I was making fun of your grammer. You're the one with the anger in his heart, not me. You write of silence? You talk more than a parrot in his cage.

Respect? What do you show of respect? You spew your anger like vitriol on all that disagree with you or don't answer your vague questions in the manner you expect so long as you can come off superior to them. When someone goes toe-to-toe with you like I have on numerous occasions, you run away and pop up on another thread talking about me vaguely and never address the questions I've asked of you.

Silence is the original. he who doesn't understand silence but operate in the Heaven and Earth and Human post silence state or Yin Yang realm doesn't know the source of creation thus becomes mechanical

Careful what you say about other people, boy. That other people walk a different path doesn’t make you right and them wrong. Heading in different directions we can still arrive at the same place – or have you not read the Platform Sutra?

Jeremy R.

[passing_through]

Ernie:

silence… is found through experience as well spending time in a moment of chaos , letting go and accepting it , then being natural with it , instead of trying to quantify in and crystalize the possibilities , how does one make a formula about unexpectidly slipping on a banana peal during a fight you just flow with out resistance or ego or a care in the world. let the enemy show you the way , how could we do this if we are to busy trying to impose our will

Interesting comment and one with which I agree both intellectually and from bodily experience. Odd that your ego came through in dismissing an idea you don’t understand. You’re dismissing your understanding of the formula rather than the formula itself (which is a straw man argument). Guess you need more time on the training floor – or on the meditation pillow.

all of them strees a calm empty yet alert mind
i guess some things are universal in combat , no matter were it comes from

*psst* (whisper voice) that “calm empty yet alert mind”… is Chan… but there’s no connection between learning to fight and learning Chan according to Hendrik. Your own experience contradicts him. Funny how life does that to ideas.

Jeremy R.

[passing_through]

As for my answer about “With what kind of energy do y'all play Siu Lim Tao?”, initially asked by Grond:

In my experience of training SNT, there should be a progression in awareness/intent – and the energy used will match your intent. Initially there is structural energy – you have to know your identity. From there you start to progress into awareness of yourself and energy – how it flows and connects throughout your body and to the environment (while your structure maintains its integrity).

Getting into visualization, HFY makes use of visualizations based on color – but that a very basic/general explanation and I’m not going into details online. I’m not ready to train the visualization stage so I’m still training structural energy. There are portions that are completely relaxed and portions that use dynamic tension – and again, this is basic/fundamental training.

In the Ip Man lineage, some suggest being totally relaxed and playing the 1st section for as long as possible which others (mainly Sifu Chris Chan) play with a lot of dynamic tension and a relatively fast speed. I’ve only seen it once or twice and I don’t understand the reasoning for the tension but his students, in my experience, have a lot of power – even the really small ones. Grand Master Ip Ching focuses on the thumb as written elsewhere on this thread. Grand Master Chu Shong Tin uses the shape of the circle in his teaching but my last contact with that was a few years ago. Another model I’ve experienced is to imagine a beam of light or water flowing out of your arm from the elbow in the 1st section… and finally, I’ve heard that you imagine your elbow low and sinking as if energy was collecting in your elbow like water seeking the lowest point. As the fullness develops, your arm will move of it’s own accord. There are all strategies to help develop your energy – try ‘em and see what works for you. You’ve got to start somewhere, after all.

Finally – have you spoke with your Sifu about ways to keep your mind focused? Knowing how he wants to develop your skills he’s the best person to ask – online people can only give you generalizations but he should know you best and, seeing you, he can help guide you.

Good luck with your development.

Jeremy R.

[Phenix]

While I like the imagry you’re trying to paint ?at the same time, there is no silence if there is no ear to hear it.

When there is no ear, there is no silence. Silence is a concept, an idea. Even silence is an attachment.

Human beings need attachments to help them out of Samsara but in Nirvana there is no silence and no not-silence. -----------------J




The silence you think is silence might not be the buddha's "silence."

Let see how the buddha or Kwan Yin Boddhisatva said and how they teaches one to practice ....


Sutra:
¡°Initially, I entered the flow through hearing and forgot
objective states.

Since the sense-objects and sense-organs were
quiet, the two characteristics of movement and stillness
crystallized and did not arise.

After that, gradually advancing,
the hearing and what was heard both disappeared. Once the
hearing was ended, there was nothing to rely on, and awareness
and the objects of awareness became empty.

When the
emptiness of awareness reached an ultimate perfection,
emptiness and what was being emptied then also ceased to be.
Since production and extinction were gone, still extinction was
revealed...............

¡°In the absence of sound, the nature is not gone.
Nor does it arise in the presence of sound.
Entirely beyond production and extinction.
It is, then, truly everlasting. ..

Ananda, you should listen attentively:
I rely upon the Buddha¡¯s awesome power,
In describing to you the Vajra King,
A samadhi inconceivable of likeness to illusions.
It is the true mother of all Buddhas.
¡°You concentrate on learning
to uphold the Buddha¡¯s Dharma.
Why don¡¯t you listen to your own hearing?
¡°Hearing does not spontaneously arise;
Because of sound it gets its name.
But when hearing returns and is free of sound,
What does one call that which is set free?.............----Shurangama Sutra.



Like a person who attach to the un color area of a pice of drawing and called that sky. Is that true sky?

Actually seen the sky is very different then viewing a picture and thinking what is sky. That sky in the picture is not the real sky no matter how you keep think and keep imagining. Thus, one needs Real Patriach to teach one and verify one's attainment.

So do Prajna wisdom is not that dull space.....
Somedays you will know.




I can be right. I can be wrong. certainly I am not the buddha. But
Surangama sutra, Patriachs' mind seal transmission , and Emei 12 Post kuit were there hundreds and hundreds of years and traceable...... earlier them Ming much earlier......





I might be the worst evil demon in your view and reasoning.

so, think it over. may be Don't want to take my words and don't want to even against it, so it doesn't constantly in your mind which expose you to run into a danger of get infected by my devilist thought.

you might not want to dig into it also because even if you prof me wrong you might not be able to use your old thinking patern as before anymore. the old world melt down and the old ways of thinking has to go. Sometimes, know more is not a good thing.

Best Wishes why waste your time with this old dead devils phenix ghost. I might be the old vampire living in the red boat due to I saw all those ancestors Rene trying to track me down. Hahahaha



When there is no ear, there is still hearing. When there is no eyes, there is still seeing. doesn't hear the sound doesnt means doesnt heard the sound of silence................. when you dream do you hear?

[Phenix]

Finally ?have you spoke with your Sifu about ways to keep your mind focused? Knowing how he wants to develop your skills he’s the best person to ask ?online people can only give you generalizations but he should know you best and, seeing you, he can help guide you. ---J



There is a different with making an effort to focus and alert aware attentive effortlessly. Focus with effort will drain energy and become rigid, tensing,.......

Thus, imho, while doing SLT don't knock yourself rigid with total concentration or focusing with great effort. similar to when you are driving a car you don't do total concentration or focus with great effort. otherwise, you will be drain and your eyes and shoulder will be tense and in pain.

------------------

Matrix revolution --------


Mind what is mind may be just a serious of automatic triggle running programs? hahahhaaha.

The agent will love Neo to always running the program and become a program. Too bad, Neo is human. Thus, somedays when one has a chance to have a peek of what is it beyond the running program....... the first thing Neo see is the running program are rest within the silence.

Samsara because one always control by the programs, round and round and round.... loop and loop and loop. never ending.
thinking that is real.

but five minutes after that anger the mad and the explode. the desire.... neo regret. neo repent but neo always not in control..... why? because one dont know that is program. the angry program is not the repent program.....different equal potential programs....

. when Neo saw the silence he knows he is free to chose to follow the programs or not. thus, he will be free after some training of not blindly lock into the program loop.

Thus, when Neo focus and desire emotionally into a certain things. he knows that is lock into the program rigidly and he is free to chose to know about it but not following it and not figthing it.

A great movie. By the way Neo uses Sun Punch to fight the agent.

[Phenix]

Pual,

Ok, since we go through Surangama sutra, E12P kuits. The next logically is the SLT kuen Kuit of Yik Kam.

so, those silence..... are a neccesary to clarify.... and to show evidents where it from. hope that sandman understood. the discussion of the "platform " is a must.

it is like start from transcendental and see how things created and comes to the physical world....



The ancestors of the Red Boat has it. So, IMHO, they know and they are great.

It is beyond those uprising and leader and antiqing... it is real vast and deep wisdom and technology.

Hahahaha. may be I should go join writing of Matrix 4.

[anerlich]

Hahahaha. may be I should go join writing of Matrix 4.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Please don't.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by anerlich


:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Please don't.


I heard Matrix 3 was make in Aus?

[anerlich]

The optimum mental states for practising forms and fighting are not identical.

A fine MA teacher of my acquaintance had it:

An internal focus with narrow concentration is useful for personal practice.

An internal focus with broad concentration is useful for mental rehearsal.

An external focus with narrow concentration is useful for activities such a target shooting or taking free throws in basketball.

An external focus with broad concentration is useful for activities which involve external random events, such as extreme sports, sparring or fighting.

With forms, you need an internal concentration, with either narrow or broad focus, depending on what you are trying to do.

For sparring or fighting, self-evaluation or self-talk takes the concentration internally, and you are on the downward spiral. "Think only of striking the enemy" and "forget yourself" when fighting" are not just metaphysical discourse, they are sound practical advice. Fighting has more in common with driving or surfing than it does with practising forms where the mind is concerned.

Anyone like to guess who said this?
:D

[anerlich]

I heard Matrix 3 was make in Aus?

FWIW you heard correctly.

IMO they got stupider as they went along.

[yuanfen]

I fess up- even Matrix 1... passed me by.
The Arjuna-Krishna dialogue on the eve of the great battle of the epic Mahabharata made more sense.

[Phenix]

Fighting has more in common with driving or surfing than it does with practising forms where the mind is concerned.--A


Sure.

As soon as it is not dull focusing.... IMO.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
I fess up- even Matrix 1... passed me by.
The Arjuna-Krishna dialogue on the eve of the great battle of the epic Mahabharata made more sense.



Prof. Joy.

I think if we use the Program world in Matrix to analogy the seeds of conciousness of the 5 skandha is pretty good. we all trap in the skandha of conciousness hahahaha.

See, now a day, some electronics signal processing design has given up the true physical components but using Digital Signal processing method which one can write any kind of function one like. similar to play god. I oftern told the engineer work for me that if they want to go DSP they need to play god all the way. because nature is not going to take care of thier design while it is operating in the digital realm if they don't take care of it. it is a blank reaction. similar to Neo stuck in between program world and human world.

Soon, I think we might forget about what is real weather if we live in a huge tower with everything inside. never see the real sun..... don't know about silence because we think silence is no sound..... all control by digital system.... hahahaha. just some wild thinking

[Ernie]

jeremy
Odd that your ego came through in dismissing an idea you don’t understand.
there is that good old hfy arrogance we all no and love
dude my ego is not in the way your attitude and need for some sort of all encompassing fulfillment and deep rooted need for acceptance is what constantly gets in the way of anyone taking you serious .
I only speak from my first hand experience , I don't hide behind tired old sayings , and other peoples accomplishments . if you need to worship Chan , Buddha , wing chun a rock a tree a trigonometry book to make you feel like a whole person then god bless you but don't put that crap on me . I'm not that insecure
if you ever want to have a real martial art discussion I'm all for it on the friendliest of terms . but if you keep trying to sell my that battle star galactical Charlie Chan stuff , sorry me no speak bull$hit .
it's very simple angles of attack and developing a living relationship with your opponent and there position , read there intent and intercept there action , not rocket science Einstein
just spend time in the moment , eliminate internal dialogue and relate . so put away the protractor and get little gully

jeremypsst* (whisper voice) that “calm empty yet alert mind”… is Chan… but there’s no connection between learning to fight and learning Chan according to Hendrik. Your own experience contradicts him. Funny how life does that to ideas.

get over yourself and try looking outside of you little chan filter , this state of mind can be in any athelete , artist , anyone with a calm clear focus , nothing to do with chan , everything to to do with being a human , you seem to be very narrow minded , i say seem to be as i don't really know and would be egotistical enough to make such a assumption , like how much time i need on the training room floor you are more then welcome to come down to the dec 6 friendship gathering and see how much time i have already put in first hand . i would welcome the chance to express our idea's to one and other .

straw man

[John Weiland]

Phenix,
Reading KFO, I often yearn for digital silence. Too much noise at most times.

Andrew has an interesting posting about where one's mind should focus doing different things. Ok, I'll guess William Cheung said it. :D

Where should I focus while reading KFO? :confused:

Regards,

[Phenix]

this state of mind can be in any athelete , artist , anyone with a calm clear focus , nothing to do with chan , everything to to do with being a human.-----------E



Ernie,

This is what the Buddha said:


"¡°You concentrate on learning
to uphold the Buddha¡¯s Dharma (teaching)
Why don¡¯t you listen to your own hearing?"



So, even the buddha said be a human and work up from there instead of trying to be something is not, and with the mind keep spin but go no where.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by John Weiland


Where should I focus while reading KFO? :confused:

Regards,


aware of the silence which read the post, which embrace the KFO post, and make up the post.

and if one aware of those silence. where is not silence? hahahaha

[Ernie]

hendrik
So, even the buddha said be a human and work up from there instead of trying to be something is not, and with the mind keep spin but go no where.

but there were humans before the words of buddha we ever written so this state of mind has always been nothing some one just wrote about it .

but enough with the religious not my thing , i'll tune back in when we get to eye jabs and head butts :D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Ernie
hendrik

but there were humans before the words of buddha we ever written so this state of mind has always been nothing some one just wrote about it .



sure before you know Gary there is this silence but you don't know that silence.

so after Gary kick your but you know that silence and this silence. :D

so well, that silence is always there but you need Gary to show you that silence. it is allllllll about silence. :D

Buddha means the enlighten one. So Gary is your buddha. and there always buddha around even you will become one. OMMM.

how long since you watching a mountain or a sea side without any thought but just watching?

[Ernie]

hendrik
so after Gary kick your but you know that silence and this silence.
actualy ,
the silence has always been there since i was a child , and when i used to fight , it was oddly peaceful like watching a movie . but i didn't know what the '' silence was called ''

i did a stress overload drill a few years ago were 6 people with gloves surround you and kick punch ,stomp , push and through you down and keep kicking you .
now the goal here is to accept and become one with a no win situation . it was an amazing growth experience because at first you try desperatly to rationalize and control the siuation, but you quickly realize you can't your emotions go through the roof your heart is racing , your in pain and disorented ,
then some were along the way you just kind of vanish '' accept death'' and a calm quite surrounds you .
after you let go of all your predetermined scenrios and just become one with the moment suddenly a funny thing happens you sar to see and feel oppertunities , a leg a arm a gap all become clear .
the fog of war lifts alittle .
now your still getting a gold old fashion passionate a$$ whoppin.
and there is no way out , thats the purpose of this drill . but you gain an experience and a sense of calmness .
trial by fire i guess , now this is a controoled drill you get banged up and alittle bloody but nothing broken .
now i have been in a one against a gang in real life and i got cut and kicked in the face and punched at full power , hell i even got pistol whipped '' that's a whole nother high school story ''
but the emotions between the drill and the real were very similar .
if you can find silence in a multiple attack situation when things are not going your way,
think about how easy one person in front of you is

[Phenix]

¦æ¤ª¬y¤ô¤¼
¥Î¤ßµL¦h
¨D¤j¹D¥H«Ú§L¤¼
_âÉEª«¦Ó¶W²æ
³Vª¾_µ©TÃø±o¤¼
°ß¤Ñ¦aÉO§@¦X

Watching the moving cloud and flowing water.
doesn't use that much of energy
searching for Dao to disolve fighting
beyond million of things and surpase
Looking for those who knows the sound, but difficult to find.
then be friend with nature.



Ernie,

A good song.

since the silence is always there. win is there. lost is there. anger is there, happy is there,..awake is there, dreaming is there. nothing changes, nothing lost, nothing get taken away why fight?

Time to go watching the ocean suft without thinking and use much energy.

Watching the moving cloud and flowing water.
doesn't use that much of energy.......


Jeremy,

You have a royal heart and want to protect the truth.
I understand you your path.... Perhaps I was there a quater of century before.

you keep swimming and swim very deligently but you have no direction of where is the other side of the river. may be here now is the otherside of the river. you can't be there
if you can't recognized it.

May I make a suggestion?
you need to let every ideas or truth others tell you go. and examine what is your nature, accepting who are you. don't try to make yourself become something according to others idea, you need to listern what is the silence which exist everytime..awake or dream or happy or sad...... then may be nothing happen. may be something happen.

you need to cultivate your awareness, alertness, sensitivity or capability to accept similar to an ocean will accept everything, and then attain for yourself to know what is there.
Save all the energy, because to enter silence with awareness and alertness one needs every bits of energy but not forcing it.

You don't have to believe me. I might con you or trick you. I migh telling you the truth equally to i tell every one. I might be right I might be wrong. Just a suggestion.

But, I belive. Somedays, somedays you will replay what I post here in your mind when you have search all the ways..... It is similar to the Oracle telling Neo. I don't know what will happen. But I belive. Someday.... you are a good person so you shall found.
Best luck.

[anerlich]

Nice guess John, but no cigar.

Where should I focus while reading KFO?

On the screen in front of you, I guess :D

[russellsherry]

hi guys the longerst time , i did sil lim tao was for three hours at a camp, it was a very hard expereince for me but after it my centerline , came out and my hands were very quick in sparring in fact i gave a black belt a bloody nose in sparring,, that day my first sifu could not belive it , i do not recomend , this type of training though you should keep the blood flowing and relexed at all times correct hand postion is important, power comes from the center and should be explosive peace russellsherry

[passing_through]

The silence you think is silence might not be the buddha's "silence."

The silence you think I think might not be the silence you think is the Buddha’s “silence”. Do you know what I think? Are you me?

That sky in the picture is not the real sky no matter how you keep think and keep imagining. Thus, one needs Real Patriach to teach one and verify one's attainment.

Real Patriarch? Signed and sealed? Why do I need someone to tell me what I see for myself? Can your eyes see for me?

Playing with quotes as you are so fond, I give you this:

Q:- My teacher has the authority to teach Zen. I have seen his credentials. What is your authority and where is your proof?

A:- Buddhism only recognizes one authority. That is Mind which is also the Buddha. If you have seen Mind's nature then you have the authority, given to you by the Buddha, to do has you please. If not, then you should guard both yours words and your actions. Those who claim to have the authority to teach Zen, showing off their robes and certificates, have no authority since these things are not Mind. Over the years, I have seen that anyone, with enough money, can become a Zen master almost over night. So it proves nothing to brag about your teacher's credentials. In the past good students could recognize good teachers just by listening to a word or two. In their heart, they were searching for the one true source of all, having recognized that Mara's shadow was upon them. And because they were searching in this manner, their hearts resonated with the ideal teacher who had safely crossed to the other shore. Today, inferior students can only recognize inferior teachers judging them by looking at their wares like merchants. This implies that they only resonate with materialism and not Mind. As for proof, if you only want mouse sh~t, rather than gold, there is nothing I can do to convince you otherwise. Evidently, you are attached to the trappings of conventional Zen.

I might be the worst evil demon in your view and reasoning.

Funny that you’re the only one worried about demons. Put demons out of your mind – why do you continually mention them? You’re not a demon to me, you’re nothing more than words on a page and a memory of shrieking laughter at your own jokes. You really need to get over yourself. You don't scare me and you're words are even less.

you might not want to dig into it also because even if you prof me wrong you might not be able to use your old thinking patern as before anymore. the old world melt down and the old ways of thinking has to go. Sometimes, know more is not a good thing.

What is old? What is new? I think today, I’ll think tomorrow. Thinking and feeling comes and goes – energy comes, energy plays, energy goes. *shrug* I think, I don’t think – sometimes I sleep, sometimes I eat. Right or wrong don’t mean much to me – which way are you going? That’s all for today.

when you dream do you hear?

yes. you?

You have a royal heart and want to protect the truth.
I understand you your path.... Perhaps I was there a quater of century before.

Ah, old man,
quick
teach me your wisdom
that I might know
where not to go
and what not to do
I walk the middle
You walk to the left
A compliment as a slap,
save your breath.

you keep swimming and swim very deligently but you have no direction of where is the other side of the river. may be here now is the otherside of the river. you can't be there
if you can't recognized it.

Oh, but there are no secrets - you said so yourself. I'll call the Mat Jung Buddhists (all of 'em) and let 'em know they're stuff is just common knowledge.

May I make a suggestion?

You may do whatever you wish, only you limit yourself.

you need to let every ideas or truth others tell you go. and examine what is your nature, accepting who are you. don't try to make yourself become something according to others idea, you need to listern what is the silence which exist everytime..awake or dream or happy or sad...... then may be nothing happen. may be something happen.

Funny words for a guy that throws out quotes like it was going out of style.

Do you walk with my feet?
That would be a treat.
No, just a real feat.
Let me know when you find some heat.
I’m tired of hearing you bleat.

to enter silence with awareness and alertness one needs every bits of energy but not forcing it.

I’ll breath in when I need to breath in and exhale when I exhale. Or do I need you to suggest that to me, too?

You don't have to believe me. I might con you or trick you. I migh telling you the truth equally to i tell every one. I might be right I might be wrong. Just a suggestion.

Don’t you know what you are? Or do you need someone to remind you? I don't believe you and I don't not-believe you. *shrug* Your words are like wind, blowing through the air. You tell "the truth" that is only conventional truth. It's not what is said - it's what is left unsaid that has all the more import.

you are a good person so you shall found.

Ah, see.. there’s your mistake. As you’ve posted 3x before, I’m a demon, remember? For the record, I’m not a good person... I’m just a person. There’s no lost so there’s no found. I am where I am and not somewhere else. Kinda simply really. Or haven’t you figured that out yet?

As for my comment about focus - I didn't quantify the level of focus I just said focus. But what did I mean with that word? You're the one that when looking for forced effort. Who's forcing what? On whom?

Jeremy R.

[passing_through]

there is that good old hfy arrogance we all no and love

No arrogance – just a guy stating what he sees. You miss the point of the Formula. You’re talking from a different timeframe in your post. You wrote about not factoring in stepping on a banana peel. The Formula deals with understanding structure first and foremost, before even getting into discussing how/when/where to move. You’re jumping the gun in your assumptions and dismissing something you don’t understand that may or may not be of benefit to you. If you decide ahead of time that it is no use for you, you’re right. Hence, my comment about ego. You decided that the formula is worthless. It may or may not – you won’t know if you don’t investigate for yourself.

I don’t need acceptance – however, if I see you talking trash out of ignorance, I’ll say something. I’m not hiding behind tired old sayings or other people’s accomplishments - just stating what I see.

if you need to worship Chan , Buddha , wing chun a rock a tree a trigonometry book to make you feel like a whole person then god bless you but don't put that crap on me . I'm not that insecure

You can see, based on your experience – but what do you really see? I’ll accept that you’re effective – but how efficient are you? Good enough? Is it possible to get better? Does what you do cause you to miss efficiency by doing too much or too little – how do you measure efficiency? In HFY this is part of the function of the formula. It provides a frame of reference to understand the time and space in front of you – and by understanding your own structure, you understand your opponent’s structure.

it's very simple angles of attack and developing a living relationship with your opponent and there position , read there intent and intercept there action , not rocket science Einstein

just spend time in the moment , eliminate internal dialogue and relate . so put away the protractor and get little gully

Angles of attack based on what?
Intercept there action at what moment? Again, based on what?
Do you see the point I’m trying to make?

get over yourself and try looking outside of you little chan filter

Actually, if you take the time to investigate things, you’ll find that I’ve related lots of things to Chan and Chan to a lot of things… and a lot of things to each other w/o Chan being involved. The narrow mind is Hendrik, trying to argue that Chan can only be explained/understood/taught *his* way based on *his* understanding and *his* experience of the sutras. As for me being narrow, you don’t know my background. Interesting how all I said was your ego was getting involved and now you’re calling me arrogant, accuse me of speaking bull$hit, hiding behind others, etc.. I submit that you’re calling me names due to your ego, still involved. I haven’t called you names, have it? Insulted your experience or understanding? Dismissed you or your experience for no reason? I suggested you need more time on the training floor or the meditation pillow – who doesn’t (and I include myself in that statement)? In my opinion, you’re ego still isn’t in check based on your reaction to my comments.

Jeremy R.

[Ernie]

jeremy
hahahaha dude your my new hero
i thought all you spiritual cats were very centered human beings ,
guess your just as gully as the rest of us,
i love it:D

as for the whole formula thing of couse i don't know your specific formula , and if it creates points of reference for your training and concepts , thenit serves it's purpose ,
but guess what everybody has a formula , wing chun, kali boxing . football basket ball and so on any time humans line up in confrontation , nothing new and everone thinks there's is the best ,

but the best laid plans fail , and human adaptability keeps you flowing and this is my point , every formula is flawed because we are flawed , i just hate to see people trapped by the process , and the impression i got is your formula was being put out like the answer for everything ,
now that may not be your intention but that is the feeling i pick up from the book and the post , and i have been around long enough to know that is impossible .


[[You can see, based on your experience – but what do you really see? I’ll accept that you’re effective – but how efficient are you? Good enough? Is it possible to get better? Does what you do cause you to miss efficiency by doing too much or too little ]]

simple answer i will never be good enough since i can never calculate who or where or when i might fight, all i can do is remove the internal barriers that keep me from flowing and accepting a sitauation ,
ego being one of them , i really have no ego there is nothing for me to gain or lose in these word interactions , it's a game
i see a kink in the armour of a idea , or over confidence and i poke fun at it , like in a fight a feeler to cause a reaction ,
if a person is centered and confident in themselves they don't react , if there a little insecure then they react , the more emotional the reaction the higher level of ego or insecurity . thus my statement about filling voids .


[[Angles of attack based on what?
Intercept there action at what moment? Again, based on what?
Do you see the point I’m trying to make?]]

nope to me this is obvious , just move around with different people and you will quickly realize what works and what doesn't you understand the realtionship between you and the opponent , but this is to easy i guess , so people avoid swimming and come up with all these concepts and fromulas to tray and crystalize a living changing enviroment , never understood that logic
it's like i can sit hear and teach some one about all the mechnics in catching a ball have them practice all the possible positions come up with drill and formulas to try and cover all the variable s
or i can just toss them a ball and let nature take over , then fine tune them after the have developed a person experience to the activity.
guess that's just to simple and wouldn't see books magazines or videos

as for the chan thing if thats your thing and keeps you from going postal , well good for you



[[As for me being narrow, you don’t know my background. Interesting how all I said was your ego was getting involved and now you’re calling me arrogant, accuse me of speaking bull$hit, hiding behind others, etc.. I submit that you’re calling me names due to your ego, still involved. I haven’t called you names, have it? Insulted your experience or understanding? Dismissed you or your experience for no reason? I suggested you need more time on the training floor or the meditation pillow – who doesn’t (and I include myself in that statement)? In my opinion, you’re ego still isn’t in check based on your reaction to my comments. ]]

when and if you can speak on personal experience with out waving a linage banner , reciting some one elses saying , or useing some proverb ,
i will admit i am wrong until then it's all a smoke screen to me , and i don't mean that in a mean or egotistal way i use that filter on everything
that's just me ,
thanks for the entertainment and good luck with your training

[Savi]

1. Regarding your comments to Jeremy:
originally posted by ernie
"Jeremy, hahahaha dude your my new hero i thought all you spiritual cats were very centered human beings , guess your just as gully as the rest of us, i love it " Ummm... what the flock? Even leaving aside the question of what word you actually meant by "gully", I don't understand what (in Jeremy's post) he's reacting to here. What is there that indicates to him that Jeremy is not centered? originally posted by ernie
"i really have no ego there is nothing for me to gain or lose in these word interactions , it's a game" Ok, so you had no emotional investment in the discussion whatsoever when you wrote: originally posted by ernie
"there is that good old hfy arrogance we all no and love"

"don't put that crap on me . I'm not that insecure"

"not rocket science Einstein"

"get over yourself and try looking outside of you little chan filter" Compare that with Jeremy's post and tell me who more closely fits this description of ego and insecurity: originally posted by ernie
"if a person is centered and confident in themselves they don't react, if there a little insecure then they react , the more emotional the reaction the higher level of ego or insecurity" Maybe you're referring to "emotional" reactions like: originally posted by passing through
"You're dismissing your understanding of the formula rather than the formula itself"

"Guess you need more time on the training floor - or on the meditation pillow."

"You miss the point of the Formula."

"I don't need acceptance - however, if I see you talking trash out of ignorance, I'll say something."

"I'll accept that you're effective - but how efficient are you? Good enough? Is it possible to get better?"

"I submit that you're calling me names due to your ego, still involved. I haven't called you names, have it? Insulted your experience or understanding? Dismissed you or your experience for no reason?" Gosh, what a raving bundle of ego and insecurity Jeremy must be, to lash out in this manner! Ernie… OK, to be fair, these statements come close to emotionally lashing out. Just not at you... originally posted by passing through
"there's no connection between learning to fight and learning Chan according to Hendrik. Your own experience contradicts him. Funny how life does that to ideas."

"The narrow mind is Hendrik" Jeremy is no pinch hitter Ernie, he is one sophisticated "cat" when it comes to fighting (Schwarzeneggar Classics/Battle of Columbus grand champion; one of the largest martial arts competitions in the world), as well as head knowledge.

2. Regarding your other comments about HFY:
originally posted by ernie
as for the whole formula thing of couse i don't know your specific formula , and if it creates points of reference for your training and concepts , thenit serves it's purpose ,
but guess what everybody has a formula , wing chun, kali boxing . football basket ball and so on any time humans line up in confrontation , nothing new and everone thinks there's is the best ,

but the best laid plans fail , and human adaptability keeps you flowing and this is my point , every formula is flawed because we are flawed , i just hate to see people trapped by the process , and the impression i got is your formula was being put out like the answer for everything ,
now that may not be your intention but that is the feeling i pick up from the book and the post , and i have been around long enough to know that is impossible . You don’t know our specific formula, yet you already assume it is no different (in nature or purpose) than any other method of any other activity. First of all, your understanding of the HFY formula is not THE formula. As Jeremy pointed out, your only dismissing your understanding of the formula – not the formula itself.

Though this may be over many people’s understanding, the nature of the HFYWCK formula is to reinforce what IS natural for us as humans (in static postures and movements). You cannot relate to the formula because you have to experience it to understand its purpose. Once you understand the formula, you should see it as no different as the existence of Time Space and Energy. TS&E are always in flux within us and between our opponents, but they are always there. The formula is always there, it’s just a matter of being able to recognize the varying degrees of your expression of it. BTW, it is those varying degrees that are the flaws we create as humans (nobody is perfect) – and only someone who knows those specific details will be able to recognize them, and with precision. originally posted by ernie
just move around with different people and you will quickly realize what works and what doesn't you understand the realtionship between you and the opponent , but this is to easy i guess , so people avoid swimming and come up with all these concepts and fromulas to tray and crystalize a living changing enviroment , never understood that logic
it's like i can sit hear and teach some one about all the mechnics in catching a ball have them practice all the possible positions come up with drill and formulas to try and cover all the variable s or i can just toss them a ball and let nature take over , then fine tune them after the have developed a person experience to the activity.
guess that's just to simple and wouldn't see books magazines or videos The swimming you are talking about is precisely the only way people can identify with those strategies and tactics Ernie. I agree that robbing someone of the ‘swimming’ (experience) is IMO unethical. This we do not do, we don’t even teach those things (the deeper concepts and theories) until they are well into their training and development. The basic concepts and theories are used to guide the beginner on their chosen path. The deeper concepts and theories, strategy and tactics are revealed long after they begin their training and combat experience. As you said: “let nature take over , then fine tune them” This is the process we use as well; do what’s natural.

You have the right ideas in your quote above, but you seem to think HFY is the opposite of your beliefs. In truth, we can never see past the things we don’t understand. Hopefully the “smoke screen” you have will eventually fade.

[[Censored]]

Though this may be over many people’s understanding, the nature of the HFYWCK formula is to reinforce what IS natural for us as humans (in static postures and movements). You cannot relate to the formula because you have to experience it to understand its purpose.

Nobody here can relate to your HFY formula, even though we all live in the natural world, and yet you claim the formula is natural? Can you explain this?

Is there anyone who has experienced this formula and didn't understand it, or didn't agree with it? Was it because they were flawed and the formula is perfect, or because the formula is flawed?

[taltos]

The only problems I have had with the formula is my own tendency to get "sloppy" and sacrifice structure for speed. But these speak more to my personality than they do to the value of the formula itself.

The formula has been invaluable to me as a tool of self-correction and a yard-stick to ensure precise and strong structures and positions throughout any motions and exercises I engage in. After having been exposed to the formula, having the formula explained, and having trained and drilled it, I cannot engage in my Wing Chun training without being mindful of it at all times.

Of course, I still make mistakes (as we all do), but the formula has helped me recognize, minimize, and correct those errors.

Just my 2 cents.

-Levi

[PaulH]

I found a lost kuit of the people of the Middle Road! Enjoy!

The Road goes ever on and on
Out from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
Let others follow it who can!
Let them a journey new begin,
But I at last with weary feet
Will turn towards the lighted inn,
My evening-rest and sleep to meet.

Savvy the Gray

[yuanfen]

Paul H- Thx for the lost kuit.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz%#@oopszzzzzzzzzz

[old jong]

Hey Joy!...Wake up!,It is not nap times!...;) :D

[yuanfen]

Huh? Old Jong? i was almost moved by Paul H's kuit which pointed to slumberland... but not to worry-I forget the French--but in any case-they shall not pass!

[Ernie]

savi
just when i thought i was getting somewhere with one of you cats ,,,,,
gully , gutter , dirty , street ask jermery he seems to like to find spiritual truth in rap lyrics ,

[[[Jeremy is no pinch hitter Ernie, he is one sophisticated "cat" when it comes to fighting (Schwarzeneggar Classics/Battle of Columbus grand champion; one of the largest martial arts competitions in the world), as well as head knowledge.]]]

whoopy , south central l.a. gang fights guns , knives , work with professional boxers and thai fighters , does it make me a star nope ....i have dropped more '' resume undefeated blah blah dudes then i care to mention, it was a pastime for a while , and i have been dropped by no body's time and time again ,
apples and oranges .

you don't see your own ego , do you , everytime you respond to a post that opposes your position , you are feeding your ego , everytime you '' and you meaning anyone includeing myself ''
you come out with that

as for my ego , well first i love to shake things up and see how people react , it's fun so that may be my ego , but emotional commiment , no
i sit back and laugh at all the time and thought people put into there responses , hell i don't even bother to spell check or re read what i throw out there:D

also , even if i trip it's cool since i am not held to the '' higher standerd '' i am free from the thoughts of the collective borg :cool:
so i can do what ever i chose nothing lost noghting gained just me

now back to that same old you don't get my formula krap ,
once and for all as i said before of course i don't get it and yes i dismiss all types of formulas . there traps but they can be useful training aids in the begining , reference points and guides ,
and as i said before until you chose to have a real discussion with out flying your banner ,
i can't take any of these conversations to seriously , you might have great stuff and you , jeremy and the rest could be the coolest most down to earth people in the world but the energy i get off the post and the constant bringing up of the ''system ''
gives me the scientolgy , freaky zealot thing and up come all the red flags .
so when your willing to talk man to man as individuals cool , until then things will keep going down this spiral to no where .

all i can do is wish you the best , and a little advice , if something is good it will shine on it's own just let it go through it's natural process , if you rush it there will be reisitance , if it's lacking it will stay stagnate .

peace

[PaulH]

Joy,

Always glad to light up some humor as things get kind of dark on the road. You're welcome!

Regards,

PH

[Ernie]

hey paul
your right , humor is the best path at times , i will refrain from kicking sand in the face of the geeky kids in the play ground :D
and to the rest of you and the originater of this thread sorry for letting myself get sucked in the never ending vortex of trying to converse with this guys ,
:D

insert last words and comments to make you feel better here:cool:

[PaulH]

Hey Ernie,

Your prodigal acts won't work with me! Ha! Ha! You're a riot!
Keep on being street honest as you are as we need a good jolt every once in a while!

Regards,

PH

[yuanfen]

Hey Paul H. Ernie is no prodigal-just warrior two?
BTW- I enjoyed the IKF article on your sifu's pole work.

[Ernie]

joy at least i'm not '' decsendents of wing chun '' that movie sucked , thank god i get all my kung fu movies for free:D

i'm glad you enjoyed the article gary is real big on pole for structure and power ,

have you noticed the change in your students once the get the mechanics of the pole ,
they seem to get heavier and more unified .

[PaulH]

I got to see this Warrior 2 movie! Ahem... Ernie you were speaking of free...?

[Ernie]

dude i got over 500 old school kung fu flix , some guys rip them from dvd and let me down load them you name it i got it but i will have to encode it as a vcd or svcd , talk to me via email