Yip Yu Ting/Yeh Yu Teng

[ngokfei]

Thanks to Buddhapalm my curiosity into the Mi Zong Lohan style has surfaced. I've researched quite a few sites and books but there exist much conflicting info, so here are a couple of questions.

1. The Lohan style in MiZongLoHan is from Sun Yu Feng/Fung?

2. What was Yip Yu Ting's family art (Lohan or MiZong)?

3. Some have it as being Mi Zong from the same source as the Huo Yun Jia Clan from Sun Tong (?)

4. Others have it as being Lohan from Yip's Uncle who was a classmate of Sun Yu Feng (?)

5. I presume there is no main Lohan style since I have seen mentioned many different individuals who this style who have nothing to do with each other. Is there a main Lohan Style in the main stream today.

6. Who represents Sun Yu Feng's Lohan today? Where are these schools?

7. What about Ma Liang's Lohan? Is it around today, where?

well again thanks to buddhapalm I've spent some time researching this.

Should be spending more time on the Fan Tzi schools found in Ying Zhao but have hit a dead end on available info/resources and availability of teachers to as questions from.

thanks for the info

eric

[NorthernShaolin]

ngok fei,

1. Yes it is. Of course some of the current Mi Tsung Lo Han sifus do not believe this. Somehow this part of their history was not transmitted to them. However, the older gewneration believe it though.

2. His family art is Mi Tsung Lo Han.

3. Yes this is true. Yip Yu Ting studied Mi Tsung under Chao Lien Ho at the Jing Mo Association. However, from what I understand, his family knew a different version of Mi Tsung already. Confusion here is that some say Yip combined the two styles (Mi Tsung and Lo Han) together while others say Mi Tsung Lo Han was already combined (by his Uncles) and Yip went to Jing Mo to learn a differeent version of Mi Tsung.

4. It is said that they were classmates however they did not learn together. More like brothers, learning the same style but at differnt times.

5. Lo han style is so old and has many variations that branched off of the original Lo Han and time has destroyed all records such that there is no way to trace the original Lo Han. Today, the main stream Lo Han would be the one that would be the most popular one practiced but it certainly would not the original. China is pushing their version of Lo Han as the original but time will tell if that becomes the main reconizable Lo Han.

6. Sun Yu Fung's Lo Han official name is Northern Shaolin Yan Lo Han where Yan means 'third' for third generation of NSL Lo Han. Sun's Lo han can be found in China (Kwangchou and Hong Kong); Canada (Vancouver and Calgary) and USA (San Francisco Bay Area). (If you want specific names or web sites I can give some of them to you.)

7. Ma Liang joined China's Army in the early 1900's and taught in the Army and in High Schools. No official Martial Arts schools per say. He lived his whole life in Shangtung provence as a Military Officer. He had a master plan to spread CMA throughtout China but from the looks of it, his particular plan failed because of military politics. He wrote a famous CMA book in 1901 and was revised in 1915 that outlined his ideas, plan and his knowledge on CMA but I have not been able to secure a copy of it.

[ngokfei]

Thax Northernshaolin just what I was looking for and expected. Hard to get resources and clarifications or even confirmations to suspicions and theories.

PS: I'll do a buddhapalm on you.

From reading past posting you have shown to have quite an indepth knowledge of various Northern Shaolin plus styles.

So do you hve any info on Fan Tzi?? Resources are limited and have to wait on a couple of translations.

again thanx

eric:D

[buddhapalm]

Hi Guys,
Northern Shaolin, regarding questions:

1. This is interesting. If the Lohan is from the same branch of Lohan of Sun Yu Fung, then there should be many similarities, particularly, there should be some forms that correlate. Do you know of any MZLH forms that are similar to LH of SYF ?

If they are connected, do you know where the connection lies, would Yip Yeh Tings family have learned from Monk Yuan Tong ? Or another in the same martial family.
I would love to know more about this possible connection if possible.

7. I wonder if there are any remnants of Ma Liangs Lohan in Shandong. If he spent so much time teaching it may be possible. I do not think it would have been eradicated in Shandong, because I found out that much of Meihuazhang system passed through the cultural revolution without being destroyed in Shandong. There were secret training classes and the villagers kept the system preserved through the village clan structure. Therefore it is my belief that Shandong may be a place where the real Kung Fu may be preserved still. Check out the Meihuazhuang Association site, they show photos of village martial festivals yearly in the villages. Thousands of people with spears, kwan daos and all. By the way Ngok Fey, isnt your style from Shandong, perhaps you may want to go there to investigate.

I saw on a MZLH site that it included 8 Lohan forms in the system.

Look forward to more discussion on this.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[NorthernShaolin]

ngokfei,

Let me check. As I remember I do not recall reading anything just on Fan Tzu style alone

buddhapalm,

I'll get back to you on this..have some thought on this but no time to really express it now. Got to sleep. zzzzzzzz

[NorthernShaolin]

buddhapalm,

Besides the standard Jing Mo sets that are the same, I really do not see any similar or shared sets between Mi Tsung Lo Han and NSL Lo Han. Some sets have shared names such as Practice set, etc., but I have not seen enough to come to any conclusion.

As to the connection to Monk Yuan Tung, my information has only been verbal by many of the older generation sisuks connected to Jing Mo schools. They always told me that it is really the same style to SYF's Lo Han and the really difference is the added Mi Tsung to it. Even my sifu says it is the same but he cannot explain why Yip's Mi Tsung Lo Han does not share similar series of techniques. I guess they were at a higher level where they were able to see that it is the same.

I have yet to see any written documentation that can point a direct link. People in Mi Tsung Lo han are completely in the dark and like to give full credit to the Yip family. This is okay but they forget that in order to combine two styles together, there has to be a connection. Othewise why use the combine names? Why not just call it something else? I figure the elders who knew better felt it not their style so if the people who practice it want to claim whatever, so what. It's their style and they can do whatever they want to do with it.

Now it was well known fact that Yip Yee Ting was very creative and talented in his family style and had the ability to create sets. Good or bad about what he did when he was alive, he may have changed his own family style as he taught it and that the old timers aware of this but out of respect, choose not to say anything.

As for Ma Liang, I really think this guy may have gotten the raw deal by the government. He joined the Army in the late 1890's and became an officer, thinking that he could use the military as a vehicle to promote his style and his way of teaching. I do not believe his footprint was left in any form or fashion in Shangtung. He taught military soldiers and at High School programs. Reality is that when teaching the military, applications are stress and not the complete style so as an educated guess, he taught applications to the mass of soldiers. As for the high schools the program took the shape of Physical education classes. One hour a day...what can he really teach? Basic martial arts with maybe one easy set to 14 to 17 year old youths. I do not think anyone of these youths would take it seriously enough to continue to study.

Anyway around 1916, the government pulled the plug on his program and made the decision to go with another martial arts program. He was politically out and his program and dreams thrown out the window.

That's why I believe his book, written in 1901 and revised in 1915, is so important in securing. It would answer many of my questions about his martail arts program, his style and his dream.

[buddhapalm]

Dear NorthernShaolin,
Thank you for your extensive answers, they cover a lot of ground.

I look forward to seeing some choice demonstrations of Mizong Lohan, particularly the Lohan aspects. I shall look around as it sounds like an interesting system, especially if it relates to Sun Yu Fung's Lohan.

Did you have an opportunity to learn some of this MZLH system ?

Warmest Regards

Buddhapalm

[NorthernShaolin]

buddhapalm,

Only three sets from SIfu Raymond Wong.

Saber and two sparring sets. (hand to hand and saber vs spear)