Korean TJMHPM demo clip

[mantis108]

Just browsed the NPM commnuity on the web and found this file:

http://www.mantismartialart.com/demofight-2.WMV

I like this clip. Let's hear your thoughts.

BTW, the site has a few update including articles on different PM styles, also there is a clip on Guangban Tanglang. I would like to congratulate whoever that is managing the site. It really is a wonderful resource for the Mantis community.

Mantis108

[B.Tunks]

Yep, I liked that clip. That is good Tanglang in my opinion. Particularly liked the rib kick followed up from outside. Everything there looked suitably vicious and sharp.

[MantisifuFW]

Mantis 108,

Thanks for letting us in on the site! A great clip. Reminds me of when I studied Tanglang there many years ago. The Koreans are fierce and passionate practitioners of the art!

Steve Cottrell

[yu shan]

Ditto the above comments. Thank you M108 for this information, you take good care of us.

Are my eyes deceiving me? After the Go Lo Tsai, was he doing an upper cut to the body? Sorry, eyesight showing the age.

[Oso]

not just your eyes, those dudes are fast.

are you talking about the first pass they make?

if so, then it does look like an uppercut to me.

thanks mantis108

[RAF]

Mantis108

I hope you don't mind, but I borrowed and posted the clip on the taiji forum asking if anyone believed that taiji fighting (not push hands) was distinguisable from thise clips.

I've seen the result of Zhang Wei Fu, TMPM, from Qingdao, Shandong move as fast as that with double the age.

Sun De Yao also is like that.

Sometimes one doesn't appreciate the beauty of good mantis and its effectiveness until you stop practicing and see it in others.

Great clips.

[mantis108]

I was very happy to have found this clip on the HK TJMHPM site. It is also wonderful to see that practitioners across the PM community enjoy it. Before I address my thoughts on the techniques involved, I would like to reply to some of the response and input by you.

Brendan,

I am very glad that you like it as well. The kick and follow up does look very impressive. I agree totally that everything looks sharp and vicious as good Tanglang should be. :)

Sifu Cottrell,

How lucky for you to have studied there. I hope to hear more of your experiences regarding that training phase. The Korean PM folks sure are remarkable.

Yu Shan and Oso,

You are most welcome, my friends. I believe it was an uppercut aiming at the solar plex after the double sealing hand . It would seem also that he was going for an arm drag as a follow up. It would seem the arm drag was somehow neutralized. He could have followed through with a Dengta takedown (or Panzhou elbow smash for that matter) if the arm drag was successful. If indeed both opponents were going for takedown we could see some very interest counters and reversals.

RAF,

I don't mind it at all. By all means share it with the greater Kung Fu community please. :) It would be interesting to hear about the comments. I will share my thoughts on the techniques in the following post. I hear you on the speed of the mantis players. It is most emphasised in my training experience with GM Chiu and my other PM mentors.

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)

[mantis108]

First and foremost, I think it is recognized that this clip has displayed some important mantis fighting characteristics.

1) Speed
2) fighting range
3) Use of combinations distinctive to Mantis

My understanding of Meihwalu (Plum Blossom Path) is rusty but I believe this clip has a few of the combinations from it especially the last rib kick with the follow up. IMHO, I believe that Meihwalu is about the 7 Longs of Mantis. Together with Bazhou (8 elbows) they would cover the 7 longs and 8 shorts of mantis nicely. It is interesting that some lineages prefer to teach Meihwalu in the place of Bengbu. Perhaps that's a reflection of the logic of it. It reminds me of the old adage, "Bengbu dao Bazhou, Shenxin ye nan tiu" (from Crash and Fill to Eight Elbows, even immortals are hard to escape). Surely if one can use the 7 longs and the 8 shorts at will, he would be a tough one to beat. Another technique of note is the "pheonix knobs its head 3 times" which is basically a one-two punch combo with back fist and door shutting kick. I think is in the middle of the clip. An interest thing is that this clip seems to have all the center attacks in the beginning and the inside outside gates attacks (revolving door) near the end.

I think RAF brought up an important question is that how does the "Taiji"-esque that seems to be emphasised by the TJMHPM line being applied in their fighting? What type of training mechanism in their style brings about this type of attribute? Could it be found in their Gong (Qigong) methods? I have heard that they have Sanhui Jiuzhuan Luohan Gong, that is composed of Sanhui Jiuzhuan Huanyang Fa (soft Qigong) and 18 Roads 69 postures Luohan Gong (hard Qigong). This would remain to be investigated.

Hopefully, we will have Tainan's input on this as well.

Mantis108

[bamboo_ leaf]

Nice clips 108,


Reminds me very much of Sabunim Park when he was teaching in korea.

I don’t play this anymore and its been a very long while. One thing that I remember was that Sabunim Park really emphased a lot of what I would later learn though playing taiji was listing skills (tingjin).

One drill that we used to do was to walk a circle with our arms touching and begin all movements from there. Very much like a type of pushhands only with mantis grabbing and eventual throwing combined.

good memories


david

[Brad]

Quick slightly off topic question: Are taiji pm, mei hua pm, and taiji mei hua pm all names for the same system, or three seperate branches?

[Tieh]

Oufff. First of all these guys are definetely quick. Impressive how fast they come to a takedown.

@Brad
Although my knowledge is quiet limited taiji mei hua and mei hua pm taiji pm are different branches of pm. taiji mei hua has very soft and flexible taiji like movements but it is played fast though.

@mantis108
As far as I know taiji mhpm lines do not have qigong methods integrated in their system.

Regards

[mantis108]

Hi David,

Long time no chat. I hope all is well with you. :) Thanks for sharing the interesting drill. I can see why you have fond memories of it.

Hi Brad,

I think I will open a different thread for it since the question really merits it own thread.

Hi Teih,

Thank for the input. I think I will address that in a different thread.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Falcor]

Just, curious, could someone tell me who the tanglang teachers are in Korea? It's not often one hears of good kung fu taught in Korea, but perhaps I haven't been paying attention...

[B.Tunks]

Korea and Vietnam, both excellent!

[Tieh]

@ B.Tunks

Only TJMH respectively MH wise?
I know that the german Mei Hua MAster Gerhart Milbrat studies with a Korean Master. I heard he is good but I do not know Milbrat him nor have I seen him.

Regards

[Shaolinlueb]

i loved that man good job. and thank you

[Ren Blade]

Great clips. :cool:

I love Praying Mantis.

[ninjaboy]

those clips are way cool but i do have one comment...

as excellent as these players seem to be in most visible respects, the clips are still 'set up'. demo clips for entertainment and 'ooh aah' types of praise. each clip only represents one skilled fighter at a time not two that are both trying to win/survive in a skilled mantis player kind of way.

it would be a beautiful thing indeed if someone could dig up video clips with people of this caliber playing in a more 'sanda/free fighting' kind of way, wouldn't you guys agree?

i don't mean to take away from the video, i enjoyed immensely myself, but...just my $.02

sincerely,
neil

[MantisifuFW]

Originally posted by ninjaboy
as excellent as these players seem to be in most visible respects, the clips are still 'set up'. demo clips for entertainment and 'ooh aah' types of praise. each clip only represents one skilled fighter at a time not two that are both trying to win/survive in a skilled mantis player kind of way.

Sifu Armstrong,

Martial arts is a very individual path and our response to art, when we see it, is equally individual. Two people can see the same thing and have a different reaction to it depending mostly on our frame of reference. Some can see this and say, "I would like to see if they can really fight with those techniques". Others can look at the clips and that question would never occur to them. The reason for the difference is that for those who practice using those techniques themselves, the question of how it looks "in real life" is already answered.

Sure, it would be great to see them in combat and from all appearances when we did, win, lose or draw, it would be Tanglang.

Great to hear from you and I wish you well on your trip to China.

Steve Cottrell

[ninjaboy]

Sifu Cottrell

Re: "Martial arts is a very individual path and our response to art, when we see it, is equally individual. Two people can see the same thing and have a different reaction to it depending mostly on our frame of reference. Some can see this and say, "I would like to see if they can really fight with those techniques". Others can look at the clips and that question would never occur to them. The reason for the difference is that for those who practice using those techniques themselves, the question of how it looks "in real life" is already answered. "


All very true. Well said sir.

And thank you kindly for your well-wishes on the China trip. I'm so excited. I fly to Shanghai on the 28th of November. YAY!!!

sorry...back to tanglang

sincerely,

neil

[Dachengdao]

Hi Robert,
You asked:
Could it be found in their Gong (Qigong) methods? I have heard that they have Sanhui Jiuzhuan Luohan Gong, that is composed of Sanhui Jiuzhuan Huanyang Fa (soft Qigong) and 18 Roads 69 postures Luohan Gong (hard Qigong). This would remain to be investigated.
My answer: yes, you are right! I enjoy reading your posts because I am learning how to translate a lot of Mantis terms into English...Thank you, my English teacher!

[mantis108]

You are too kind. I have much to learn from you. :)

I would love to have your input on the Gong training of the TJMHPM and how it relate to the other aspects within the system. This would definitely raise the awareness of the strength of TJMHPM. I am sure a lot of people would love to listen to your expertise on those matters and on the style. Please share your knowledge with us all. Thank you. :)

BTW, I must congratulate you on the well done job with your site. It is indeed an expertly done webpage. I particular enjoy the video clips. I find the 2 clips from the UK Plum Blossom PM quite interesting. May I ask who are they and which group/lineage do they belong? Also, would you have the name of the form that the lady, Andrea, does? I really appreciate your effort in the quality work. Thank you, my friend.

Warm regards

Robert

[Dachengdao]

Hi Robert!
Andrea's form is Wutan Chui (sorry if my pinyin is off, I never payed attention to my studies when I was in school...I only liked kungfu study and nothing more...now I'm trying to make up for this mistake). This is a basic form and only Hao-style has this. As for the Gong training, this is something you don't see regularly practiced now days. Only the indoor students get this training, if at all. GM Sun De Yao is the only person in my system that I know of that teaches this openly. He always mixes it in with his seminars, but since he barely speaks English people are not often aware of the names of what they learn with him. Sifu Cottrell had an opportunity to take his seminar at the Wutang Hall of Fame, but he didn't have time to teach the Gong at this time because the seminars were cut shorter than expected. Have you heard about the Iron Palm training? This is very rare today. Chinese name Tie Xa Zhang. My teacher's father's kung fu brother could make fire from his arm only using one strike to create great friction. There is also Di Gong Quan which is higher floor grappling. Most Mantis masters don't know of it. It is the 7th Zhai Yao and most masters only know of 6 Zhai Yao. Later when my English is better I will write a Mantis book because there are none from my system in English. I think Ilya is the only one that has translated some of the old teachings from Plum Blossom. I would like to see Mantis go higher in America (and the world). That's why I am very happy to participate online to share and learn.

[Dachengdao]

Oh, I almost forgot...you asked:
BTW, I must congratulate you on the well done job with your site. It is indeed an expertly done webpage. I particular enjoy the video clips. I find the 2 clips from the UK Plum Blossom PM quite interesting. May I ask who are they and which group/lineage do they belong?

I don't have UK PM on my site. Maybe you are refering to GM Sun De Yao? I'm not sure which ones you mean.
Wang

[mantis108]

<<<Andrea's form is Wutan Chui (sorry if my pinyin is off, I never payed attention to my studies when I was in school...I only liked kungfu study and nothing more...now I'm trying to make up for this mistake). >>>

You are too humble. I think you are doing more than fine with the English.

<<<This is a basic form and only Hao-style has this.>>>

Thank you for the information. I really appreciate it. Is the Wutan Chui be the first form for novice in the Hao-style?

<<<As for the Gong training, this is something you don't see regularly practiced now days. Only the indoor students get this training, if at all. GM Sun De Yao is the only person in my system that I know of that teaches this openly. He always mixes it in with his seminars, but since he barely speaks English people are not often aware of the names of what they learn with him.>>>

I agreed the Gong training is getting lost. I am glad that GM Sun is teaching it openly. I think it is important nowadays to spread the Gong training so that they won't be lost forever. Hopefully, I will have the oppotunity to come to meet GM Sun and you.

<<<Sifu Cottrell had an opportunity to take his seminar at the Wutang Hall of Fame, but he didn't have time to teach the Gong at this time because the seminars were cut shorter than expected.>>>

Ah, that's unfortunate. I hope there will be more seminar in the future and hope that the gong training with be covered as well.

<<<Have you heard about the Iron Palm training? This is very rare today. >>>

Yes, I have some basic training on the Iron Palm. In HK, this part of training is important. Would you mind sharing some insights on the Iron Palm training so that we can benefit from it.

<<<Chinese name Tie Xa Zhang. My teacher's father's kung fu brother could make fire from his arm only using one strike to create great friction. >>>

Awesome.

<<<There is also Di Gong Quan which is higher floor grappling. Most Mantis masters don't know of it. It is the 7th Zhai Yao and most masters only know of 6 Zhai Yao.>>>

Great, we have a Ditanglang (ground mantis) form. I think someone asked about the 7th Zhaiyao. As you pointed out many don't know this form. I wonder if you care to share more info about this? I am sure a lot of people will be interested in listening.

<<<Later when my English is better I will write a Mantis book because there are none from my system in English.>>>

I certainly will be interested. Please let us know when will it be available.

<<<I think Ilya is the only one that has translated some of the old teachings from Plum Blossom. >>>

Yes, he has put a lot of effort in promoting traditional Tanglang. I have lots of respect for his knowledge and skill. Unfortunately, he is rather quiet lately. I hope he will come back on-line soon.

<<<I would like to see Mantis go higher in America (and the world). That's why I am very happy to participate online to share and learn.>>>

same here, my friend. It is wonderful to have great company like you on the Mantis path.

Warm regards

Robert

PS I must have misread something. Are Sung and Andrea from your school?

[Dachengdao]

PS I must have misread something. Are Sung and Andrea from your school?

WANG- yes they are my students. Andrea is my longest time female student in the US. That is indeed the first form. Andrea has a lot of power and did very well at GM Huang's tournament (her first one). She also races dragon boats and bicycles which are great cross-trainers. Sung (along with his brother) is my webmaster as well as student. The brothers are black belts in TKD, and this comes out in their Mantis forms. To be honest, I don't care for this style but they did win the gold and silver in Mantis forms at Master Tony Yang's tournament, so now I get off their case. I guess I'm too much of a purist, but I am very proud of them...all my students are very good people! I am very lucky.

BTW- this thread caught my eye at first because my teacher's kung fu brother is the one who took our style to Korea. These must be his students in the clip. They are very good!

[B.Tunks]

Sorry Tieh, overlooked this...

Originally posted by Tieh
@ B.Tunks

Only TJMH respectively MH wise?
I know that the german Mei Hua MAster Gerhart Milbrat studies with a Korean Master. I heard he is good but I do not know Milbrat him nor have I seen him.

Regards

There are all forms of Tanglang in both countries but Taijimeihua/ Meihua dominates in Korea and Taiji Tanglang is most likely the all-time most dominant in Vietnam Though there is a bit of H.K descended Qixing). There are also some Koreans who live permanently in Shandong who are very good in Tanglang all round (especially Qingdao). I dont personally know Mr Milbrat either so I cant comment on his ability.
B.T