ma bu training

[stonecrusher69]

I just wanted to ask the panel what they think about ma bu training for long periods of time in BSL.In souther styles it's common practice to train your horse for a long time,but I've read that in northern styles it is not advised to do this because it makes you to stiff and can slow down your foot work by over developing you laeg muscles...What is your opinion???

Mike

[GeneChing]

The more time spent in stance, the better. That goes for all styles. Some southern styles may emphasize deeper ma bu, but even the internal styles emphasize stancework, just different stances. In my BSL training, we did a lot of stancework. At Songshan Shaolin, we did a lot of stancework. Now, as I train xingyi, stancework is key.

If there's one thing I should do more of, I should do more stancework...;)

[stonecrusher69]

Thanks for your reply.Gene keep up the good work!!!

MIke

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by GeneChing
stancework is key.


Precisely!

GHD

[ninja]

Your hungar teacher tells you that because he took shotokan 5 years ago. He got his green belt then quit. He then took kempo at a strip mall location at which he learned the 5 animal kempo strikes and the plum blosson blocking system. Realizing after a southern styles tournament that he was actually only practicing hung gar he quit and opened his own school at which he makes you sit in horse for long periods of time hoping it will make up for not knowing much. He could actually teach you all he knows in one afternoon over a lunch special of chinese. When did Gene start learning Xingyo? and What does Decheng think of it?

Amitabha-'ya Ra 'ali baba Shi Wu bin

[Shaolinlueb]

instead of sitting at a table for lunch, sit in a mabu and eat like that. when your at home playing video games instead of sitting on the couch, sit in a mabu. hey it works ;)

[Tak]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
instead of sitting at a table for lunch, sit in a mabu and eat like that. when your at home playing video games instead of sitting on the couch, sit in a mabu. hey it works ;)
Sure, but then your horse stance is proportionally way better than all your other stances. You've gotta change it up...

[GeneChing]

I first started learning xingyi form my hung gar teacher. :eek: Actually, I only dabbled in Hung Gar, about as much as I dabbled in ninjitsu, so I really wouldn't have much to say about it. But as for Xingyi, a started a few months back after a shoulder injury. And I'll ask Decheng what he thinks of it when I see him again, which I expect in the next two months... :D

As for ma training, there are actually a lot of variations. That's understandable, since it's really pretty boring. Appropriately, I've heard the term 'ma training' to refer to any sort of general stance training. Many forms of qigong have built in stance training - I supposed you could extrapolate that even to forms practice. Certainly distractor tasks like watching TV and such are a good way to sneak more time on task, but there's something to be said for mindfulness. When you really focus on just the stance, there's a certain meditation to it.

One thing, the argument that it stiffens your legs and slows you down is just ridiculous. Look at the wushu people. They do a lot of stancework, super low stuff too, and they are definately not stiff or slow.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Tak

Sure, but then your horse stance is proportionally way better than all your other stances. You've gotta change it up...

if i hold my mabu for 10 minutes I will hold my gung bu for 20. if i fail to do that then i will hold my sanchibu for 20.

[norther practitioner]

And I'll ask Decheng what he thinks of it when I see him again, which I expect in the next two months...

He'll be here soon :D ...

[Tak]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb


if i hold my mabu for 10 minutes I will hold my gung bu for 20. if i fail to do that then i will hold my sanchibu for 20. Hmm, I think we do san chi bu as 6/4.

[Judge Pen]

Do a form and hold the stances in the form for a minute or two before moving in the next posture. Hey, when you have a lot of fomrs you have to learn to multi-task. ;)

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Tak
Hmm, I think we do san chi bu as 6/4.

sure thats not sie la bu?

sanchi bu is 3 /7 i thought. san = 3 chi = 7 in mandarin

yes and holding the stances when you train is good. i always train as low and as powerful i can even if i am out of breathe. but i am only human so i take breaks and do walk throughs to get the patterns down if im tired then go abck into it. i am by no means superhuman.

[Tak]

Yes, I know san chi means 3/7, but we don't use a 3/7 stance, unless you count san ti.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Tak
Yes, I know san chi means 3/7, but we don't use a 3/7 stance, unless you count san ti.

okay. didnt know :D

[herb ox]

Not to mention the amount of time spent in the West in ma bu is probably FAR BELOW what is trained in China. So it seems you'd have to hold a ma bu for days on end to be truly "excessive"... 5 minutes a day is not really enough :D

BTW, who is Ninja and whose teacher is he/she referring to in that scandalous Shotokan/strip mall greenbelt statement???

peace

herb ox

[Scythefall]

We spend the first 15 minutes of class doing temple exercises, alot of horse stance and bow and arrow stance with twisting exercises. Just generally warming up. My Sifu talks about the hours long bouts that he had to do in horse stances when he started back in the 60's and I just cringe. Because he doesn't take up a whole class working on just stances, he tells us to do little things like put our backs against the wall and sit down into a horse stance while commercials are on if we are watching TV or something. It's a small thing but the benefits add up quickly. I haven't really tested *how long* I can sit in a horse stance, but I can go through 3 hours of classes and never have to question myself about my stances. I don't think that they would necessarily be any better if I dedicated extra time or not.

I find my battle is really more with the cardio end of things. I'm a fairly big guy at 200 lbs and it takes alot of energy and strength to practice Shaolin forms and where a weight-lifter might say lift weights to build that explosive power, or a martial artist might say, spend time in each of the stances to build the strength and muscle memory, I've found that cardio gives me the better bloodflow for extended periods of working out and also to summon those explosive movements when needed. I dunno..if I get myself on a really good set schedule, I'd love to spend some time just exploring the stances meditatively, but that annoying thing called a job is taking time away from my kung fu. Heh!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by stonecrusher69
but I've read that in northern styles it is not advised to do this because it makes you to stiff and can slow down your foot work by over developing you laeg muscles...

That is not true.

First, stance training only builds a limited amount of muscle. After being able to hold a stance for so long, it stops being a strength exercise and becomes a muscular endurance exercise. When this happens, you won't build muscle. For example, take myself and one of my training partners. I can do about 50 nonstop pushups... he can do about 75. By your reasoning, he should be stronger than me. But, I can bench press 280, and he can't even break 200. By being able to do more pushups, he has more musular endurance than me, but I have more raw strength.

second, it's a well known myth that being bigger makes you stiff. Unless you are absolutely HUGE and don't stretch at all, having size will not stiffen you.

[herb ox]

seems like a modified (deep and wide) mabu would be ideal for stretching the groin and pelvic muscles - ever seen Tom Kurz (sp?) and his "amazing splits" program? Mabu has the right elements - tension, stretch, strengthening, etc.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by herb ox
seems like a modified (deep and wide) mabu would be ideal for stretching the groin and pelvic muscles - ever seen Tom Kurz (sp?) and his "amazing splits" program? Mabu has the right elements - tension, stretch, strengthening, etc.

you can stretch using the mabu. go into mabu then bend over and grab your toes,m make sure you keep your elbows on the inside.

[dimmakseminar]

BTW, who is Ninja and whose teacher is he/she referring to in that scandalous Shotokan/strip mall greenbelt statement???

Dear Mr. Herb Ox:

ninja was a Monk at the Shao-lin Temple...once...for about a month. If this is this case (and I have no reason not to believe him), then his credentials are indubitable!

Sincerely,

dimmakseminar

[MasterKiller]

Actually, I think he studied with one of the US monks, maybe Shi Yan Ming IF he's done anything at all.

[mortal]

You will all find out who he is soon enough at a special event that has yet to be announced. He is no monk but he is as good as some of them.

[ninja]

HE PROBABLY JUST WORKS OUT AT CRUNCH GYM AND TAKES THE YOGA CLASS ONCE IN A WHILE. NOTHING STEADY BUT JUST ENOUGH TO MEET GIRLS. WHO DOES THIS KID THINK HE IS?

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by ninja
HE PROBABLY JUST WORKS OUT AT CRUNCH GYM AND TAKES THE YOGA CLASS ONCE IN A WHILE. NOTHING STEADY BUT JUST ENOUGH TO MEET GIRLS. WHO DOES THIS KID THINK HE IS?

hey watch the mouth. i go to the gym to look at girls. they're so fit :D :o :cool:

[dimmakseminar]

Dear Mr. Shaolinleub:

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
you can stretch using the mabu. go into mabu then bend over and grab your toes,m make sure you keep your elbows on the inside.

This sounds like a pose that is available in one of those videos that are available only in the back of the video store. One of the videos containing double top secret techniques of ecstacy that drain you of your Qi.

Sincerely,

dimmakseminar

[norther practitioner]

They drain you of your jing.. but anywho...


you pushing out on your legs there lueb?

[Shaolinlueb]

i dont know yeah you push your elbows out. i used to do it a year or so ago, and i didnt like it, but did it. hurt in the hips so i havent done it since. you can do it. but i dont recommend it now that i think about it.

[norther practitioner]

Hurt like the same as doing the butterfly stretch... thats sort of how I felt it when I tried it.. seems like there are better ways to do that stretch....

[Ironwind]

I believe that yes, the ma bu trainning can help,but if you get accustomed to being in that low postition (espcially for taller artist like myself) you will become slower in your offense. Though it does shape your glutes, strengthen your joints, and give you a sense of being lighter. You are not going to engage in battle holding a horse stance, therefore if you are going to train in the horse stance I believe the horse should move. When I started training in the Ma bu my instructor/cousin changed the horse into a crab, then into a dolphin. You have to move in the stance for it to worth anything in battle instead of just a workout or exercise.

[Chief Fox]

ma bu trainning is a good way to strengthen your legs and hips. But I believe the real benefit from holding a stance for a long time is mental not physical. It helps you to focus, the longer you hold a horse stance the tougher mentaly you will be. Just my opinion. Any thoughts?

[Ironwind]

Valid observation Chief, but in the end it still only helps you as a non-combatant way of training. Now in all you may know or have learned can you truly say that you were in a ma bu for most of a confrontation. I see the fundamental posistion of it all and wanting to be mentally tough, but what you want to be is mentally sharp so you can cut to the chase. I believe that if you are in this horse stance it'll be hard for your opponent to lose track of you.

[Doug]

I believe that yes, the ma bu trainning can help,but if you get accustomed to being in that low postition (espcially for taller artist like myself) you will become slower in your offense. Though it does shape your glutes, strengthen your joints, and give you a sense of being lighter. You are not going to engage in battle holding a horse stance, therefore if you are going to train in the horse stance I believe the horse should move. When I started training in the Ma bu my instructor/cousin changed the horse into a crab, then into a dolphin. You have to move in the stance for it to worth anything in battle instead of just a workout or exercise.

I disagree. Training while in low stances and stretching every day will allow you to move at any level--low, middle, or high range--very quickly. The horse stance is very versatile if you make it so. This is the case, at least, with me. I am also tall, so I can relate to the difficulty in this case.

Doug M

[denali]

Maybe you shouldn't do pushups because you won't fight from the pushup position.
Maybe you shouldn't train qigong, unless it's mobile qigong.. because you won't fight like that.
Maybe you shouldn't train forms because you won't fight like that either.

Now that I think about it, running and sparring are the only practical training according to the above logic.

There sometimes is a necessary difference between training and fighting, dangit!

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Chief Fox
But I believe the real benefit from holding a stance for a long time is mental not physical. It helps you to focus, the longer you hold a horse stance the tougher mentaly you will be. .

that goes for most dedicated training. Once you reach a level where it becomes endurance and strength, and you get right into your body it's all mental conditioning...zoning out the pain or removing the feeling mind, and putting jus a lil more in in increasing increments...at least thats how I get the best out of my self...that way if you're always aiming for a lil more and you'll never stagnate...which is probably why 75 straight pushups just aint so impressive....

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by denali
Maybe you shouldn't do pushups because you won't fight from the pushup position.
Maybe you shouldn't train qigong, unless it's mobile qigong.. because you won't fight like that.
Maybe you shouldn't train forms because you won't fight like that either.

Now that I think about it, running and sparring are the only practical training according to the above logic.

There sometimes is a necessary difference between training and fighting, dangit!

nothing wrong with doing if it's for the right reason. leg strength isn't the right reason. sparring in low stances isn't the right reason. That can indeed build bad habits.

[Shaolinlueb]

someone mentioned the 8 stance training drill? horse, bow, cat, crane, open, sitting, cross, and sneeking stances? then just turn around and go back the other way? I have been doing this a lot. it lets you switch you stances and keeps it more solid when doing forms.

[DeathTouch]

Ma Bu , Shamu ha
My stance work outdoes all the stance drills you guys mentioned i sit in my moo goo gai pan for 20 minutes then step into a egg foo young for 15 minutes which shall then rotate into a ha gao for another 20 minutes. now that is stance training.

[blooming lotus]

I do a good eggfuyong ( spelling difference must change with province) myself but I did a great lengthy mabu today and I really don't recommend the eggfuyong until 1-2 hrs after that :D