Self-ranked Style founders.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

I know this is something more commonly found in JMA or KMA than in CMA.
Now many people start their own style and are rightly listed as style founder (soke or chinese quivalent).

What I don't get is that a lot of them seem to be 10th Dan/Degree or higher.
I am not even talking about titles like "great founder" or similar.

Before I continue a quick look at the Dan ranking system:
1.) Invented by Kano-Sensei.
2.) Open-ended ranks.
3.) Ranks above 5th Dan awarded for contribution to the arts or achievements.
(hence seagal jumped from 3rd Dan to 6th Dan) ;)
4.) Kano-Sensei was not ranked and was awarded a 10th Dan after his death.
5.) Rank can only be awarded by either the founder or a higher ranked person, 6th Dan and above is usually awarde by a committee of elders.

By definition the founder of a style cannot be ranked as there is nobody higher skilled that can test & rank him.

NOTE:
I am not passing judgement on the skill & knowledge of said People, it's just that the practice puzzles me.

What's your take.

[rogue]

Leave me alone.

[David Jamieson]

Here's what I think.

If you get all caught up in the superfluous, such as rank and lineage and everything else along those lines, then you are missing out on the goodness that is martial arts practice.

Skill is in the hands and it's not in some piece of paper or cloth.

Not important at all in the grander scheme of things.

cheers

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
Here's what I think.

If you get all caught up in the superfluous, such as rank and lineage and everything else along those lines, then you are missing out on the goodness that is martial arts practice.

Skill is in the hands and it's not in some piece of paper or cloth.

Not important at all in the grander scheme of things.

cheers

I couldn't agree more.

[old jong]

Kano did not invent the dan ranking system.It is an old Japanese tradition to give ranks in almost everything.You can have a rank in flower arrangement of paper modeling of in tea ceremony...etc...The colored belts:yellow,green etc,were created by a japanese judo sensei who was teaching in France in 1935. Sensei Kawaishi had this idea because he felt that the westeners needed more signs of rewards for their progress.So he created the colored belt system that was adopted by karate after.
In Japan the belts had only the white brown and black.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

old jong.

Not saying you are wrong.

My sources differ a bit, Kano-sensei is listed as the founder of the I-Dan system:
1.) White Belt
2.) Black belt 1st~5th Dan
3.) White and red striped belt 6th Dan ~
4.) It is based on swimming teams of the time when advanced swimmers tied a black string around their waist.
He is also listed as the inventor/creator of the Keiko-gi or Do-gi.

Atleast that is what I got from my JMA sources, since I wasn't there I can only repeat what I heard of others research.

[Brad]

NOTE:
I am not passing judgement on the skill & knowledge of said People, it's just that the practice puzzles me.

What's your take.
My take is that people don't know anything about how the dan ranking system was intended to be implimented(I never have) and just make up their own way :P

[joedoe]

I had also heard that Kano had invented the belt ranking system.

[Vyvial]

There is an instructor in my town that pretty much reinvents himself everytime he makes new flyers. New claims, new lineage and even new styles. Last batch he put together mixed his wing tsun and his karate, it's pretty cool. He's a 10th dan black sash Sijo teaching his own style of wing tsun. Before that was his Mexican stick fighting that he came up with. He had a Krav Maga flyer saying that he taught the original jewish martial art and that he was a rabbi. He also changed his name. Then there was the time that he made VT flyers with my school name on them and his phone number saying that he is the only senior instructor of this system in TX. I have a collection of his flyers, they're gonna be worth something someday.

yeah so, what ever argument you guys can come up with.... it won't shock me. And you guys wonder why I think Shaolin Do is a positive thing here in Austin.;)

[Xdr4g0nx]

I invented the Internet. It was originally called the wazzawhozit but they changed it behind my back :mad:

[old jong]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey
old jong.

Not saying you are wrong.

My sources differa bit, Kano-sensei is listed as the founder of the i-Dan system:
1.) White Belt
2.) Black belt 1st~5th Dan
3.) White and red striped belt 6th Dan ~
4.) It is based on swimming teams of the time when advanced swimmer tied a black string around their waist.
He is also listed as the inventor/creator of the Keiko-go or Do-gi.

Atleast that is what I got from my JMA sources, since I wasn't there I can only repeat what I heard of others research.

I agree about the judogi creation but you should not mix the belts with the dan ranks.As I said ,there are dan ranks in many areas of activity in Japan.This system as existed for a very long times Long before judo existed.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by rogue
Leave me alone.

LOL

:D

[old jong]

Remember this "tenth degree black belt" who was beaten by Royce Gracie in some early UFC?....Ron Van Clief?...
He is the founder of the "chinese goju karate" and I wonder who gave him his tenth dan belt.
Even with that false belt rank business,he was a good karateka in his young times and it is said that he once was victorious in a fight against maybe six attackers on the street. (Something no Gracie will ever be able to do)

[Vash]

Well, the only reason I can see for a system head to be 10th or whatever degree would be for all the peeps under him to be able to get to 9th (or even tenth, voted by students, peers!).

At this point, Pretty much every'thing over 5th seems a tiny bit contrived. And pointless.

It's a sad but true fact that rank isn't always indicitive of skill.

Keep in mind, this is coming from a Sho Dan Ho. Ho. That's right, I said it. Frikkin HO. Not that I'm bitter.

:p

[shaolinarab]

tai ji is leading all the intellectual threads on the MA now. better watch out Kung Lek, the admins may make him a mod :D

it is an interesting topic, though. in some arts the founder is 5th and as people reach that rank he gets bumped up the ladder himself. i really like the curricula of kuk sool won (www.kuksoolwon.com) and hapkido (http://khf_hapkido.tripod.com/id21.htm)

in both your learn acupuncture and archery, while in the latter, u have to learn horseback riding in order to reach the higher ranks! :cool:

[Water Dragon]

A belt covers 4 inches of your a$$. The rest, you must cover yourself - Royce Gracie

[old jong]

No!...The rest is covered by the pants!...

[norther practitioner]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
A belt covers 4 inches of your a$$. The rest, you must cover yourself - Royce Gracie

:rolleyes:

It is unfortunate....

[Tak]

in both your learn acupuncture and archery, while in the latter, u have to learn horseback riding in order to reach the higher ranks!
To be said to have attained the highest skill, you must shoot acupuncture needles into the correct points from a bow while riding bareback.

[Dark Knight]

How to become a 10th Degree Black belt Soke


1) Go here http://www.bushido.org/~whfsc/
2) Pay your fees
3) your certificate shows an expiration date, make sure you pay your yearly fees.

BTW go to the member page and see how many 10th Degrees he is pushing out.


Or go to Unified Martial Arts Association International http://www.umaai.org And they will promote you to Soke

Requirements..........

1) Complete written philosophy of the new style
2) Complete written curriculum for all ranks
3) Complete written paper on why the style is unique
4) Tape demonstration of all requirements up to 3rd Dan Black-Belt
5) Personal statement on tape of personal Goals within the Martial Arts
6) Complete written history of martial arts experience
7) Must be willing to submit to and pass a background check
8) Must submit contact information for yourself and at least 3 Martial
Arts references
9) Must hold Black-Belt Status in at least two martial arts
10) Must submit to an interview conducted by the Director of the Sokeship
Board ShoDai Soke Richard Baker or anyone he may appoint to this task.

Whenever a member of the U.M.A.A.I. dies, they will immediately be promoted to 10th Dan Black-Belt GrandMaster.

The founder started TKD in 1989 and is now a Soke

[Dark Knight]

Or go to Phil Porters site, he will also promote you for a fee. www.mararts.org