Shaolin Duan

[norther practitioner]

As many of the traditionalists have tended to shy away from ranking systems like belts and stuff... What are peoples thoughts on Shaolin adopting a duan system akin to the one that China itself has adopted?

[MasterKiller]

Pointless.

[GeneChing]

Actually, you'll find that most of the 9 duan masters in China are traditional. As you move down the ranks, you'll find more modern wushu, but on the top they are all traditional. Keep in mind that all the 9 duan people are older, so they are really too old to be doing modern wushu.

As for the Shaolin Duan system, I think it's really interesting, not so much about what it is but for what is symbolizes. This is the first PRC martial faction to break away from the national standard and set up their own. If you'll read carefully in the 2003 Shaolin Special (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/kf200119.html), you'll notice that many of the high ranking masters are already ranked in the regular Duan system - so why add an additional Shaolin Duan system? Good question. I'm not sure myself. One might think it's because the Abbot wants more control, however, the program is actually coming from another faction - the sport college. I'm not sure the Abbot has as much influence there. Unfortunately, in my research, I had discoverd the info on the Duan and compulsories after I had interviewed the Abbot, so I couldn't ask him about it in depth, privately or publicly. I'm not sure the monks would even participate in this - maybe the warrior monks would, but who knows? My guess is that it's because the schools are all on top of each other. Even if you go to Shaolin, you won't see how clustered they are unless you stay there for a while. There are so many schools, which means so many masters and coaches. They needed some way to sort it all out locally, but probably couldn't wait for the autorization from the national duan system. That's an ardous political process anyway, made more complicated because it is under communist rule.

I don't think the Shaolin Duan system has actually begun yet. To the best of my knowledge, it's still in proposal stage. I'll be very interested to see if it goes through and how it affects Shaolin.

[norther practitioner]

Thanks again Gene...:D

I was thinking along the same lines... to kind of rank whos there, 'cause it would take a long time for the national people to get to the coaches etc..

[David Jamieson]

I think it ryhmes well with Yuan. :D

[GeneChing]

On the lower levels, I'd agree, but it's the high level that we are interested in. I find all the national 9 duan to be extraordinary - there's only ten of them right now. The 8 duan are pretty interesting too, but there are a lot more. And we don't even want to get into how many 7 duan there are. So the Shaolin 9th duan will be very interesting indeed. As I put forth in the 2000 Shaolin Special, there are many high level ranks - 18 lohan, 18 diamonds, top ten Shaolin whatevers - if they distill this down to a mutual duan system, the masters who emerge on top will be very interesting (and the subjects of my future research).

[norther practitioner]

and the subjects of my future research

Cool, keep us posted.

Will this include the folk masters?

[Shaolinlueb]

werent there ranks already?
white for students, black for teacher. yellow for monk and red for like master? correct me if im wrong, i probably am.


as for incorporating a ranking system in shaolin. god no i hope not.

[MasterKiller]

white for students, black for teacher. yellow for monk and red for like master? correct me if im wrong, i probably am. You are wrong.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
You are wrong.

wheres the correct me part?

[MasterKiller]

Gene might correct me here, but Shaolin Temple has little use for colored sashes. Maybe the schools outside the temple have adopted this practice, but I don' think it occurs inside.

[GeneChing]

But there might be rankings at particular schools. Sometimes you'll see some differentiation in robe colors, mostly with the martial monks and mostly for style. Sometimes disciples (and nuns) will be distinguished by a grey robe (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/shaolstylwar.html) and monks by an orange robe (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/shaolstylwar1.html) but that's not a hard rule. I've seen plenty of students wear orange.

As for the folk masters, you'll see in the 2003 Shaolin Special, I listed the top ten at Shaolin, most of whom are folk masters. You'll also note that some of them have participated in the national duan ranking system and are ranked. I'm not sure how the Shaolin system will lay over this. That's the whole point of the duan system is that there has never been a standard specific to Shaolin yet that crosses all the schools. When the Shaolin duan system is initiated, certainly the old masters will be grandfathered into the program with senior ranks appropriate to their esteem, so it'll be a nice barometer for continued research.

Now I doubt I'll chase after all the top ten, just the active ones. The big three schools I find to be the most interesting now - Taguo, Epo and Xiaolong. I've been cultivating relationships with the head masters of these schools and hope to delve more into their theory next time - that's a little hard to get at because it requires more work than just an afternoon interview. I have to see what they have that's really outstanding and get them to show it to me for the mag.

I've done some work with some of the lesser folks schools which I'll publish soon, as well as the warrior monks schools. But 80 schools is just a bit to much and would make a boring read overall.

Shaolin Temple is a huge story. And everyone sees a different Shaolin. Take Antonio's ezine story (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=411) for example. He comes from a totally different perspective than I do, but his research is still quite interesting. My friend Dr. Meir Shahar, who's research I mentioned in the symposium article of the last issue, his take is entirely academic. He keeps telling me I got to write a book. Maybe someday. To be honest, I'm still trying to get the story myself. Shaolin is a huge Chinese box - open one box to find another. You'd expect no less from such a venerated treasure of China.

[Shaolinlueb]

man reading that article makes me want to go and train there now. :)

[GeneChing]

...that might change your mind. :eek:

[David Jamieson]

lol! :D

I like Antonios perspective. It is ...clear.
Gene, you guys get all the gems that's for sure.

cheers

[fredericsimon]

As long as remember and since i met them they are only 2 nine duans in China.
Duans ,expect for chen taiji self made duan, were made by the government as a standart point of reference.
It is pretty new and amongs shaolin monk the highest duan is 7...
duans depends pretty much on the numbers of student like 30 for 1, 100 or so for third.
passing fourth requires demonstration of skill
also you need to have attended some competition
sixth duans require you write some reference book and practice for 15 years..
ect etc
more books more student more years in the joint...
duans are not very important but they should also not be neglect

in shaolin people use tatoo some dots on their head showing the level of skill they had attain....
well, it is all about recognition....

[GeneChing]

You're a little behind the times.

There are now 10 masters recognized as 9th duan in China - we listed them on page 44 of our NOV DEC 2003 issue (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/kf200119.html). We covered the Duan system in a sidebar when we covered one of the 9 Duan grandmasters, Ma Xianda, in our NOV DEC 2002 issue (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/kf200213.html). Check out page 25 of that issue for the hierarchical breakdown. Last year, there were only five 9 duans, only 4 of whom were still alive. We listed them on p. 32 of that issue. Simply put, duan is a government-based recognition system where 1-3 duan means municipal recognition, 4-6 means provincial, and 7-9 means national.

Most of the Shaolin monks have not engaged the Duan system. Some of the warrior monks have. Right now, I think there are two 8 Duans at Shaolin, both folk masters - Liu Baoshan and Liang Yiquan. You'll find them both covered in our 2003 Shaolin special.

As for burning their heads, that is a practice of Chinese Buddhist monks, not a martial rank. Typically, it denotes how many monk vows they have taken. Only a few older monks burned their heads, since it was banned during the Cult Rev. A few of the younger monks have got them, but it's still pretty rare. Also when you see them, the marks are very faint, not like in the movies.

KL - Thanks for the props. Antonio has a refreshing voice, and a lot of more material, so if more people support his work, we'll publish more here.

[fredericsimon]

thanks for the update