Sothern Kung Fu in the Southern Kung Fu Forum.

[Ben Gash]

This forum has been sucking a bit lately, and as such the numbers of browsers and posters has dropped.
So how about some serious discussion of southern styles, techniques, history and tradition without resorting to name calling or, at the other extreme, excessive nerdyness ;)
I'll start.
My style is Choy Li Fut, as southern Shaolin style from Canton which was created in the 1830s by fusing Fut Gar, Li Gar, and the Northern Shaolin style taught by Choy Fook. Hence the name. Choy Li Fut is known for its torquing waist movements, swinging arm techniques and northern influenced footwork. I love the whipping, torquing power of CLF techniques, as they always feel fast and powerful. I've been fortunate enough to have studied several lineages of Choy Li Fut. I've experienced Chan Hung Sing, Jeong Hung Sing, Bak Sing Fut Gar, Lee Hin and even an obscure Malay lineage (my first CLF style).
The weapons I've studied in CLF are short staff, double ended staff, single ended staff, sword, broadsword,Pu Dao,Kwan Dao,Butterfly knives and sai (from the Malay lineage).
Training methods include wallbags, dummy's,drills, 2 man forms, sticky hands and sparring.

[Sho]

Good idea.

So what lineage are you studying now? I'm curious. :)

[Ben Gash]

Sorry, I was at work and I had to cut it short.
Chan Hung Sing is the line from the founder Chan Heung. It is probably the most balanced of the lineages (it has the most sets as well), offering a good mixture of long and short techniqes, all with the torqueing waist movement.
Jeong Hung Sing is the line form Jeong Yim, one of Chan Heung's top students. Jeong Hung Sing places heavy emphasis on the generation of longarm power. Huge gwa choys and sow choys are characterictic of Jeong Hung Sing .
Bak Sing Fut Gar is the result of a friendship between CLF master Tam Sam and Northern Shaolin master Kuo Yu Cheong. Bak Sing Fut Gar has a far more northern flavour (Imagine a Hung gar guy trying to do Hongquan and you'll have an idea of the flavour) than the other lines. There is a great deal of variation between lineages within the Bak Sing line, with greater and lesser degrees of northern influence. Some even teach Northern Shaolin beside it. Because of the northern influence, and Tam Sam's fighting theories, Bak Sing Fut Gar forms are more linear, with aggressive, penetrating combinations, often using the running horse stance to allow rapid footwork changes.
Lee Hin Choy Li Fut originates from Toisan County in Canton, where it was taught by the second Generation master Lee Hin. Lee Hin CLF is sometimes referred to as "shorthand" CLF, although this is misleading. The power generation is the same as in all CLF, but the expression is often shorter (especially when compared to Jeong Hung Sing).
I know very little about the Malay CLF that I know. The Teacher that my Sifu learned it from was one of these guys who'd only acknowledge the Sifu he was a disciple of, and rarely mentioned Sifu's he'd learned other styles (such as CLF) from. It has a much more southern shaolin feel than the other lineages, with a greater incidence of 5 animals techniques.
So anyaway, that's me and my style. Feel free to comment, ask questions or give your own perspective. I'd also love to hear about your styles.

[Ben Gash]

Mostly Chan Hung Sing at the moment.

[WanderingMonk]

In this spirit, allow me to contribute these clips of okinawan karate. Okinawan Karate is the fusion of Okinawan's "Te" (bare fist fighting) and Fujian Crane style.

http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/011/001/index.html

Video curtesy of Okinawan perfectural gov. The site isn't finish yet, but you'll see Goju ryu's Sanchin kata as done by real Goju masters.

wm

[jmd161]

My style is Shaolin Black Tiger it was created by Soo Hak Fu one of the "Ten Tigers of Canton".My sifu is C.Kuen Woo (Fred Woo) he learned directly from Grandmaster Wong Cheung the styles fourth Grandmaster.

Black Tiger is a family of Shaolin styles so we have a mixture of Northern and Southern styles within Black Tiger.Black Tiger is known for it's brutal conditioning drills and it's various different dummies.The most famous being the "9 Armed Grinder Dummy".Like it's sister style Hung Gar.Black Tiger also has the deep rooted stances and iron hard arms.We also have a Iron Wire or Iron Thread set in Black Tiger.The first three forms taught in Black Tiger are dummy forms although the first form does'nt use a dummy.You then learn a longrange form Night Tiger followed by the first of three Chin Na forms.Then comes the One Armed form.Once you learn the One armed form you can no longer spar using both arms.From that point on you must spar with that one arm.If the person you are sparring has not learned the form then they can use both arms and legs against you.

The one armed form is done using your weak arm.Meaning that if you are right handed then you'd use your left arm to learn the form.It was created that if you lost your strong arm in battle.Then you could still be able to defeat your opponent with your other arm.


jeff:)

[chen zhen]

Am not a southern-style artist, although I wish I was.
Always had love for da south side;)

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by jmd161
Then comes the One Armed form.Once you learn the One armed form you can no longer spar using both arms.From that point on you must spar with that one arm.If the person you are sparring has not learned the form then they can use both arms and legs against you.

The one armed form is done using your weak arm.Meaning that if you are right handed then you'd use your left arm to learn the form.It was created that if you lost your strong arm in battle.Then you could still be able to defeat your opponent with your other arm.


jeff:)
Hey Jmd,

When you do this one-arm training, do you stop training the stronger arm?

thanks

wm

[dutch]

Hi,

I study Chan Family Choy Lee Fut under Master Ng Fu Hang, the great-great-grandson of the founder, Chan Heung Gung. Mr. Ben Gash has already described the art nicely.

Sincerely,

[tnwingtsun]

My roots are in the White Eyebrow system,my lineage comes from
Dr.YQ Wong's branch.

Chang Beng Fat,Ng Nam King And Chen Dor were his teachers respectfully.

I have dabbled in Wing Chun under Duncan Leung and
Leung Ting/Emin Boztepe.
Also BJJ and Arnis.

I for one have seen this forum gone to hell from bickering between different schools of Bai Mei/Pak Mei/Bak Mei where people(not all) just don't want to share conversation and fellowship because of politics,many are turned off and just don't want to discuss these and other systems because of some belligerent members on this forum,when some try to inquire about the different applications they are shut down by the high and mighty that only show their a$$ buy claiming to hold the keys to the doors of the only way,by doing this they not only show their lack of understanding of the base art and system but show their weakness,if they in fact hold the real key to this system(and others) and boast on the secrets only that they know a certain amount of maturity should go hand in hand with this knowledge.
There has over the years been some good exchange between
schools on this forum,only to be shut down by the so called keepers of the flame,if they really belive that they hold the secrets
of this system and they are the only ones privy to this information
they are sadly mistaken,for anyone that has devoted blood ,sweat and tears to this long and honorable life long endeavor should know that a sharing of knowledge between brothers will do no harm,for we know that in order to keep our system pure and not see our treasure be watered down we must keep a quality control but by the same token we know that the sharing of knowledge between members of this forum will and CANNOT water down our art,I no longer worry about others knowing about certian aspects of my system,although I do not claim to be any expert in my system there should ALWAYS be those keepers of the flame that make sure that people that make a habit of bad judgement should never be allowed to have a part in the higher learning,call it whatever your God's will people of that nature nine times out of ten will never make it past the lower levels,so it goes to show that these systems are no longer the atom bombs that they once were and those that cling
to that illusion only show their lack of understanding.

I am no longer worried about sharing information with my brother schools,I have no fear that certain secrets of my system will be stolen by other systems and schools because I know for a fact that they cannot comprehend the full scope,even if they did my only wish is they would give credit where credit is due for the elders that have passed these treasures down to us.

My system is indeed a treasure as others and I am proud to have been a part of it as others here have been of theirs,but I cannot just sit back and see the bickering as progress,we know who we are,with the pride that comes from lineage from our founders it must be our duty to make sure that our art is not lost in time but at the same time our honor,our knowedge and our brotherhood
and those that came before us gives us a firm heart knowing that
those that earn it will be the true keepers of the flame.

I feel it is time to break the bonds of this silence
that has gripped this forum,I have seen many members(rant again) who are sorely missed by myself for one that put in positive input here only to leave or keep silent.

MMA have far surpassed us in some ways because of these simple
drawbacks,IMHO.

I applaude Ben Gash for bringing this to the front of the Southern forum and others that have given positive input into this very important thread,it has been long over due,I salute you Ben and others that will join in this nobel cause and hope that the ones who have left or no longer post will return.

Blue hair and Gday

[jmd161]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk

Hey Jmd,

When you do this one-arm training, do you stop training the stronger arm?

thanks

wm

wm,

No we don't stop training the stronger arm.We just are not allowed to spar with the arm anymore.It helps to make you more balanced with arm strength.It really help because you're forced to put more work in with the weaker arm.



jeff:)

[Fu-Pau]

Ummm jeff… if you never spar again with your stronger arm, wouldn't that in time create an imbalance and also limit your sparring?

Are you saying that, once you reach a certain level in Black Tiger you only ever spar one handed?

[jmd161]

Are you saying that, once you reach a certain level in Black Tiger you only ever spar one handed?

Well Fu-Pau,

You can spar on your own with someone using both arms,but if you spar in the school against another Black Tiger brother it's done with one arm.Meaning when it's being judged by sifu it's done with one arm,but we spar on our own using both arms and legs.

It's supposed to be one arm from then on out though.

I don't know if it creates an imbalance ,but you learn to adjust to do just about everything with the one arm.But sifu always fights us with one arm,and believe me he has no problem or limit to his attacks.


jeff:)

[Serpent]

I would think that eventually the weak arm woul become stronger (ti use your terminology) but, just as much, the originally strong arm would become the weak one. Do you swap back at some point or what?

This is a truly bizarre practice, I must say.

[Fu-Pau]

Originally posted by jmd161

It's supposed to be one arm from then on out though.


Jeff,
That's interesting. what is the long term rationale or principle behind that?
I can understand the concept of sparring one handed to sharpen your awareness and sensitivity. I do it often for practice.
But surely once you forgo sparring with both hands, rather than 'strengthening your weaker arm' (for a time when your stronger arm may be neutralised), you are simply putting yourself at that disadvantage for no reason, and thereby neglecting training with both hands which takes different skill and co-ordination.

cheers Fu-Pau
:)

[Ben Gash]

What happens with 2 handed techniques?

[jmd161]

Originally posted by Fu-Pau


Jeff,
That's interesting. what is the long term rationale or principle behind that?
I can understand the concept of sparring one handed to sharpen your awareness and sensitivity. I do it often for practice.
But surely once you forgo sparring with both hands, rather than 'strengthening your weaker arm' (for a time when your stronger arm may be neutralised), you are simply putting yourself at that disadvantage for no reason, and thereby neglecting training with both hands which takes different skill and co-ordination.

cheers Fu-Pau
:)


Well i think people are getting the wrong idea about the one armed fighting.It works for making you more balanced with your attacks.You spend your whole life using one arm/hand more than the other so i doubt using your weaker arm to spar is going to make your strong arm weak.It helps alot with you being able to use (in my case my left arm) your weak arm better.Many ppl never develope the use of their weak arm because they will only use the arm that they are comfortable with in practice.

Well i have'nt been doing black tiger long enough to notice a problem with this train of thought.My sifu on the other hand has spent 43 yrs in black tiger and he fights very well with one or two arms.What i notice is my sifu seems to not have a weak arm.Infact i can't really tell if he's right or left handed.When we spar we don't wear gloves or pads ,and my sifu 95% of the time fights against even full out attacks with only one arm.

It's funny because it reminds me of those old school kung fu movies where you see the guy using one arm to play with and defeat their opponent.I've gone after my sifu with major combos only to have him block and strike me with only one arm with ease.Most of the time my sifu places one arm at his side or behind his back and he's able to defeat us all with ease.But then again my sifu was the best fighter in the Black Tiger Clan.He only lost once to his sihing when he was like 14 or 16 yrs old.After that he never lost another fight he even defeated three at one time i recently found out from a Sidai of his in Hong Kong.

The idea is if you can defeat an opponent with one arm then two makes it that much easier.Grandmaster Wong Cheung created this form himself mainly because he had a student with one arm that he taught.


jeff :)

[jmd161]

Originally posted by Serpent
I would think that eventually the weak arm woul become stronger (ti use your terminology) but, just as much, the originally strong arm would become the weak one. Do you swap back at some point or what?

This is a truly bizarre practice, I must say.

Well i know that Hung Fut also has a one armed form so it's not unique to Black Tiger.Infact we also share Hung Fut"s Wind Demon staff so maybe there was a swap of knowledge there?

To my knowledge we don't swap back it's one armed sparring from then on out,but like i said we do spar on our own with two hands when we're sparring on our own.it makes you a better fighter in my mind because you have to think more and a hell of alot quicker.There is no room for mistakes or wasted moves when you're fighting with one arm and the other person is using both arms.


What happens with 2 handed techniques?

Well they are still there we don't disregard anything in order to be one handed.I think it's great for making you use your weaker hand more and thus not being one sided in combat.


jeff:)

[brothernumber9]

though another style may have a "wind devil staff" or "mad devil staff" form, it is not the same as in hung fut. The hung fut mad devil staff form is taught only to one individual of each generation excluding the 6th generation. The form has been performed in public but is always modified when performed in public. Although it is not entirely impossible that someone outside the hung fut lineage could have learned/stole/secretly watched the form it is not likely in the least. however, since it had been performed a number of times publicly by both Sijo Hung Jiu Shing and Sigung Hung Yu Chung, if someone did learn it by watching, then the techniques would still be actual techniques from the form as they learned it.

[brothernumber9]

in addition to my previous post, after thinking, there is one avenue that could have resulted in an exchange between black tiger and hung fut. A monk named loy yen who was believed to reside in a temple called the "purple bamboo" temple was the one who taught or helped developed the form to/with the 6th generation master Hung Jiu Shing. Outside of this encounter, little or nothing is known of Loy Yen. So a possibility exists at least conceivably that he could have taught another or even learned black tiger and included it.

[jmd161]

brothernumber9,


I'm glad you joined this thread because i've wanted to find out now for sometime what Hung Fut and Black Tiger share in common.I was told by my Sisuk that the form did infact come from Hung Fut.How it came from Hung Fut to Black Tiger i need to ask him the next time we speak.He is in Hong Kong so i usually speak to him once or twice a week.

My sifu shared a school with a Hung Fut sifu in New York when he came to the US from Hong Kong.I can't remember the name now but i've spoken with Devilstaff and his sifu and sigung both remember my sifu from his time there.

But Black Tiger is a family of Shaolin styles so it could've been one of the styles added to Black Tiger?


jeff:)

[brothernumber9]

was your Sifu's friend/benefactor Sifu Leung Kai? I only know of him by name as well and a few pictures I have seen. I haven't seen black tiger that I can remember so I can't comment on the similarities. There are also several branches of hung fut. For example students of Sifu Hung Gum Pui and Sifu Hung Shiu Sum forms are different than the ones that students of Sifu Tai Yim learn, and both of those sets of students have forms that are different from the other branches. The techniques are by and large the same or similar, mainly the forms and flavors are a little different. Sifu Hung Gum Pui was also in NY for a little while I believe, one of his students Sifu Jai has been operating a club there for a while. I have not learned many forms, and my knowledge is limited. Some of what we are learning concerning history and the likes is still being refined as my Sifu continues to travel and research them. I'll try to keep my eyes and ears open if I learn of any crossing with black tiger style, by the way, how old or what generation is black tiger style now?

[jmd161]

brothernumber9,

The names Leung Kai and Jai are the two names i remember hearing my sifu talk about.He also knows your sifu too though.

I'd be lying if i said i knew the exact time ,but Black Tiger was taught at the Shaolin temple.My Sigung Grandmaster Wong Cheung learned it from Fung Ping-Wai a Shaolin Monk that had returned to a worldly life and was living in Hong Kong.I know Black Tiger is much older than Hung Fut. Black Tiger and Hung Gar are sister styles.Also like i said Black Tiger is a family of Shaolin styles so much could've been added at anytime.I know Grandmaster Wong Cheung added forms to Black Tiger ,but the forms he added were forms that he himself created.


jeff:)

[brothernumber9]

In Hung Fut I see natural similarities and techniques from Hung Ga since it is part of the Hung Fut style. However I also see a strong similarity to Choy Lay Fut. The Hung Fut salutation and the Choy Lay Fut salutation are nearly identical other then spreading/non spreading the fingers at the end of the overhead connecting block or "eagle wings" as I call it. In addition the flavors seem very similar, at least from Hung Sing branch. I wonder if anyone else notices strong similarities in other southern styles that have more or less developed independent of each other.

[jmd161]

Originally posted by brothernumber9
In Hung Fut I see natural similarities and techniques from Hung Ga since it is part of the Hung Fut style. However I also see a strong similarity to Choy Lay Fut. The Hung Fut salutation and the Choy Lay Fut salutation are nearly identical other then spreading/non spreading the fingers at the end of the overhead connecting block or "eagle wings" as I call it. In addition the flavors seem very similar, at least from Hung Sing branch. I wonder if anyone else notices strong similarities in other southern styles that have more or less developed independent of each other.

Well we have alot of forms that have Choy Lay Fut flavor.Infact i always say that Black Tiger looks more like Choy Lay Fut to me than it does Hung Gar.But then again that's only in a few forms.We have alot of techniques similar to Wing Chun,Eagle Claw and even Bak Mei.I guess that comes from the different styles that make up Black Tiger.


jeff:)

[brothernumber9]

how far back can you trace your black tiger lineage? Is the black tiger you study the same as the Shaolin West school?, I've only seen thier web site and they mention they teach black tiger within the curriculum. Are there any black tiger sites in english that you can recommend with info or pics and such? Its seems the origins of Hung Fut and Black Tiger could potentially cross paths somewhere. Although you said you believe black tiger is much older, I think the two systems may be relatively close in age. The founder of Hung fut was named Lee Jo Fun who at some time in his life was a monk named Wun Lei also from Fukien temple. I am really interested to see what Black Tiger forms look like, and to gauge the similarities and differences from what I have learned. I 'll ask my sifu what he knows of Bak Fu Pai and relations to Hung Fut.

[custom156]

tn : "I feel it is time to break the bonds of this silence"

:-) (sound of two hands clapping) Agreed.
Lets talk Pak Mei, you first!

[jmd161]

brothernumber9,

You could be right about the two being close to the same age.I'll have to ask my sifu to be 100% sure,but here's some info i got from someone else.Soo Hak Fu was a Tiger Claw Master and one of the "Ten Tigers Of Canton" he created Black Tiger Style (Hak Fu Moon) He lived during the latter part of the Qing Dynasty.The Qing Dynasty lasted from (1644 - 1911).

No my lineage is not the same as Shaolin West,Shantung Black Tiger or Fu Jow Pai's.Shaolin West and Fu Jow Pai trace their Black Tiger back to an Unkown Monk ,and that's as far as they go that i know of. Although we do have an Unknown monk in our lineage. We are still able to trace it back directly to the founder Soo (Su) Hak Fu.It's not that the monk was really unkown his name has been lost over time.Our Black Tiger also looks nothing like the other Black Tiger styles.I know that our Black Tiger has turned up in alot of Hung Gar lineages though. And like i stated before Wong Fei Hung learned our lineage of Black Tiger,but i can not give you a time frame until i speak with my sifu or sisuk and find out.

Right now there is no english website i 'm working on one ,but i've been very busy with my new job.The Black Tiger website in my signature is going to have an english link very soon.We are also in the process of putting up video that can be downloaded off that website also.I'm just trying to decide what forms and training drills we are going to put up on the site. That is the Hong Kong school of my sigung Grandmaster Wong Cheung.


jeff:)

[brothernumber9]

thanks for the info, you may have already seen our schools site at kunfu1.com, I'm the white guy at the top of the asstistant instructor page doing a crane pose. We don't have any videos on our site, the only video I have on any computer is of a lion dance several years ago, a small clip in real audio, poor sound and quality because it was when real audio first came out. You won't see me in any of the gallery pics cuz i'm usually in a lion head and I haven't been to any tournaments since 2001. I'll see my Sifu tonight so I'll ask him if he has ever seen or experienced bak fu pai from your lineage. I'll post back if I learn anything. by the way, where is your Sifu from, is he from HK? perhaps your Sifu and my Sifu know some of the same people.

[tnwingtsun]

custom156


Hell no,you first!:D

[tnwingtsun]

Ok,have you started Nine-Step-Push yet?

[R]

At the risk of sounding silly I would like to know which version :D .

No seriouslly. LIke the confusion with jik bo I have also seen more than one way of doing 9 step.

Probably a progression of sorts but the moves are not only added to in the 2nd version but there are definiely replacement moves in the 2nd version for moves that appearred in the 1st version.

Now you know why we never talk about our sets in public heh heh...no one can understand which sets we are talking about....funnily enough this workss the same for CLF and LY as well LOL.

Cheers, R.

[Rolling_Hand]

<<I study Chan Family Choy Lee Fut under Master Ng Fu Hang, the great-great-grandson of the founder, Chan Heung Gung. Mr. Ben Gash has already described the art nicely.>>dutch


Hi dutch,

I met your master Ng Fu Hang and his mother in LA many years ago. Does he still teach CLF in LA?

Roger

[dutch]

Hi Rolling_Hand,

Yes, he still teaches, but not at his home in China Town - L.A.. He now has a school in Arcadia, Ca.. At www.choyleefut.us you can find a map to the school (just follow the links). I personal wished he still taught at his home...I enjoyed my time there.

Sincerely,