Kung Fu is humiliated by Brazilian Jiujitsu!!!!!!!

Oh my G0D!!!! Did you see what Royce Gracie did to 4 Kung fu Masters!!!!! He destroyed them!!!!!

First Royce beat a kung fu master with over 15 years experience! He took down the master with a single leg takedown. He even had the kung fu master in a choke but let go and started toying with him. He wasn't even trying and he was just humiliating him. He even put the master in his guard and put on a triangle!!! Then rolled him over with the triagle still on and royce punched him out!!!

Then Royce fought a "modern" kung fu master. Royce took him down, did a rear naked choke. End of fight. Then the master wanted a rematch. Royce took him down, got the back and started elbowing the master in the back of the head. Master taps out. Big embarrasment to kung fu.

Then in UFC #2 Royce fought another Kung Fu guy. Royce put him in an arm bar and the kung fu guy couldn't stop tapping. Another big embarassment for kung fu.

Then in UFC#4 Royce fought a Kempo guy named Keith Hackney. Kempo comes from china and is considered kung fu. Royce pulled guard. Then Royce got Hackney's arm trapped around his own neck and elbowed hackney's head. Then Royce slapped on an arm bar. Poor performance by kung fu.

[Fu-Pow]

Troll, troll, troll your boat gently down the stream.......

Fu-Pow
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[apoweyn]

You know what I don't understand about you, Josh?

You know that this behavior is going to get you kicked off. As it has twice before. So why do you do it? You come here specifically to get thrown off again. Why?

It's not some altruistic need to enlighten the kung fu people. Someone who's genuinely trying to help someone else doesn't behave the way you do. It's just not constructive.

To get attention? Perhaps. But I don't understand why, if you want attention, you'd get yourself kicked off only to come back, pretend to be someone else, get found out, and then go through the whole process again.

Perhaps that's the point. You come back as someone else. Budokan figures out it's you. And that's some big ego stroke. That you're so important that we'd take the time to deduce that it's you again.

And then this reply of mine does precisely the same thing.

It's a shame.


Stuart

[Budokan]

What a singularly undistinguished life it must be to sit alone in the dark watching UFC tapes over and over and over and over....

Yeah, Rolls, we already know this guy is supposed to be good. But what about you? When are you going to fight? Or will you make a challenge and sneak away in shame like you did last time, after posting it for the world to read on another bulletin board?

No, we haven't forgotten your earlier dishonor to the art of wrestling. Nor have we heard a reasonable explanation as to why you didn't/haven't/won't go through with a challenge. Don't you want to test that awesome unbeatable white belt of yours?

No, you just want to watch videos of those who can, since you're one of those who CAN'T.

K. Mark Hoover

[Kune]

Those tournaments dont show jack. There is no true martial art represented in those tournies. Plus, its called "advertising". Of course gracie is gonna win no matter who he fights! Its all to promote gracie jiu jitsu. And ya know what, its working. Dont always believe what you see on TV. Plus..Who the hell cares what someone on TV can do. Its friggin TV

[chokeyouout]

Those tournaments dont show jack. There is no true martial art represented in those tournies. Plus, its called "advertising". Of course gracie is gonna win no matter who he fights! Its all to promote gracie jiu jitsu.

You obviously have no idea what your talking about.No clue whatsoever.

[Kong Jianshen]

*YAWN* Pay no attention to the adolecent, ignorant, and uninformed posts of a child. I think he just NOW got around to seeing those tapes.

Speaking from a perspective of a Mixed Martial Artist, and as a person who trains and competes with REAL competitors, please don't let this complete idiot think he can represent our group. At all the seminars, matches, events, gyms I train and compete at with my team I have never seen or heard of anyone calling himself Rolls from KFO. Should I ever get lucky enough by gods grace to see him I will make him cry like a girl and make sure to get a pic for all here to see.

A)He has shown no real knowledge of submission grappling, Muay Thai, jujitsu for that matter. If he has said anything useful, its been very elementary. Dont let him fool you, he has trained 5 times in his whole life, at MOST.

B)Talks mostly crap that really does sound like he is repeating what his older brother is saying.

C)Mixed Martial Artist's see the strengths of all styles. I myself think Kung Fu of all kinds are great, effective arts which a great deal can be learned from.

D)Is apparently very uninformed on the MMA. Perhaps he never thought that Frank Shamrok used Chi Sao to improve his ground sensitivity, a drill very common in Wing Chun of all styles, Southern Mantis, list goes on. He even used the Chi Sao drill to help a revolutionary new group that is called Grappling for the Blind. Ofcourse, Rolls wouldnt know this. His big bro dosnt talk about that sorta stuff.

Pay no attention to this raving moron. He thinks MMA need someone to promote them, we dont need anything, especially from him. He is totally wrong, and nothing but confused.

Don't think Mixed Martial Arts gives a **** about Rolls. Just like Gracie dosnt give a **** how much Rolls wants to be his girlfriend.

Always seeking to learn,
Kong Jianshen
Humble disciple of the Warrior Arts

[chokeyouout]

kodukan whatever your name is, do you even train?I give you a b- for trolling.You run your mouth like a dirtbike, do you actually train B.J.J.?You are making a bad name for BJJ.I'll be fighting in the Copa Pacifica soon.Have you ever fought?

[Stranger]

Let's consider this Rolls.

Jason Delucia was the UFC kung fu guy. He was hardly a master in anybody's eyes with the exception of Art Davie (early UFC promoter, who billed all UFC fighters as masters and champions) The reason why he kept on tapping was because Royce wasn't letting go of the arm bar after the first few taps and then they fell into the arm bar. I have been to BJJ class and know that even BJJ guys get frantic when somebody is not honoring their tap and their elbow is hyperextending. Look at the tape, Delucia's arm pops beyond 180 degrees.

Keith Hackney was an air conditioning or window installation guy who practiced kempo a couple nights a week, and by Royce's admission struck harder than Kimo, Shamrock, or Severn.

If either one of these guys had fifteen years of experience, it was nothing next to the 20+ years that Royce had training and living his art in his days prior to UFC I. What you are seeing Rolls, is a guy who trained from the age of five every day beat some tough guys who do martial arts as a hobby or side profession. Consider the level of sparring partner that ROyce had in Rickson and Relson. I doubt either of these guys had anybody in their McDojo classes to push them that hard. Royce was primed for those early UFC's, but not many other competitors were prepared for the competition level. Now that Royce's sparring partners are no longer on the cutting edge, we see his success taper off.

Calling Delucia and Hackney kung fu masters would not be accurate.

[Kong Jianshen]

Rock on chokeyouout. Do you compete? Drop me a email man, at beserker966@yahoo.com
Talk to me! What events you fighting in? Those of US that actually DO this stuff.

Always seeking to learn,
Kong Jianshen
Humble disciple of the Warrior Arts

[chokeyouout]

Now that Royce's sparring partners are no longer on the cutting edge, we see his success taper off.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

was also the only one who managed to get away from gracie during that ufc. he managed to roll out toward the cage and gracie kept ahold of his arm and was hanging upside down off of it. this is if my memory serves me correctly . . that was the last one i watched. not to dicredit the athelets who participate, but i thought it was boring and hardly a representation of the worlds best martial artists. i think it would be better put as the worlds most decent fighters with the hugest balls. this is just my opinion.

where's my beer?

[Tigerstyle]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>i think it would be better put as the worlds most decent fighters with the hugest balls[/quote]LOL. Those were the early ones. The skill and technique does improve overall with the more recent events. I highly recommend checking out some of the newer MMA events.

Stranger. I know that Royce wasn't letting go of the armbar. He was humiliating the guy. You see, Jason had fought Royce before in a challenge match. And Royce destroyed him. Then Jason shows up again and trys to fight Royce a second time in UFC #2. Royce was mad becuase they already fought and Royce tried to injure Jasons arm.

Kong!!!! You would make me cry????? Yeah right. You say Frank Shamrock uses Chi ****!!!! Shamrock is the last person on earth who would ever eat that chi ****. Your trying to use a top fighter to make you feel like you didn't waste all your time while you were in kung fu. Frank does ordinary cross training. He doesn't do any mystical tai chi power training.

No, i don't compete in NHB. And i don't compete in sport jiujitsu either. But there are lots of people that don't compete. That dosn't mean i'm totally defensless just becuase i don't compete. I'm sure there are lots of kung fu people here who don't compete either. But i DO train.

I represent the unspoken opinions of all mixed martial artists. Exept for Kong who is obsessed with convincing himself that he didn't waste his time in kung fu.

Hey Kong. What grappling tournament will you be at on the east coast next? If it is close i will come. Maybe. I might not be able to come. I will wear a white T-shirt with "I AM ROLLS/GAIDEN/KODUKAN" written on it in black magic marker.

What styles do you know? I'm assuming kung fu and BJJ.

[ansgenius1]

True kung fu sifus have nothing to prove and would never get involved with UFC. Those who do get involved miss the entire point of kung fu, self defense and training the body and mind and spirit. Kodukan, why don't you take the time to learn about kung fu, rather than make fun of it?

[tnwingtsun]

I found your school!!!!
Your secret is now revealed for all
to see!!!
http://www.count-dante.com/isw223.html

Now the question is, which one are you??

The Snack Master??
Chupa Suave??
Ku Klux Klown ??
Man from M.O.N.K???
Twonky the Lovable Neo-Nazi ??
The Sheik of Physique ???
I think that you are the Sheik of Physique
and Poontangler's Love child their bouncing baby Rasputin!!!
Baby Rasputin looked more like a withered old man than a newborn -- no doubt from the amount of booze and drugs that Tangler ingested during her pregnancy.
So that explains everything.
Man,Kung-Fu's got its share of friut Bats
but your take the cake!!
To the real Sub/grapplers,you guys train hard
and I have friends that ground fight,you have my respect.
But this guy is a Nutbag!!


:D :D

[Anarcho]

Because of all the people here who take him seriously. That's what trolls do. They say stupid/annoying things and sit back laughing at all the people who take them seriously and bother replying...Maybe ignoring him would be a good idea.

[Kong Jianshen]

Please come! Its not a grappling tournament, its NHB Amateur. It is in Orlando, Mid April 20th or very close. It will not be hard to find, being the only event there at the time. If you need the exact address email me at beserker966@yahoo.com and I will gladly find it! Remember to wear that shirt, I can't wait to stick it down your throat.

"I represent the unspoken opinions of all mixed martial artists."

NO, you represent the opinions of one complete moron who is anything but a MMA. More like a MUI Mixed Up Idiot.

By the way, Shamrock DID use Chi Sao for many purposes, its widely known and its been in magazines. You just don't have a **** clue.

I currently train Muay Thai/Submission Wrestling/Bjj. With weight training, Cardio, sparring I work out 6 days a week. My past arts are Western Boxing, Free Style Wrestling, and I know you love this one.. Wing Chun. I am training hard because id like to get sponsored to train in a Japanese Gym, and do Shooto or Pancrase in Japan and climb from there. Would you like to know anything else about me? It makes no difference. Just show up and lets settle this in person. Lets see how many seconds you last.

Always seeking to learn,
Kong Jianshen
Humble disciple of the Warrior Arts

[Juggler]

LOL! Kodukan, you're even more ignorant than I thought!

Chi Sao is not mystical crap! It's about sensitivity in the hands. Very important in grappling. That's why many close range fighting styles (eg. Wing Chun, Southern Mantis, etc.) practise them.

You have no clue. At least look up some decent MA books before posting another reply.

"What styles do you know?"

It's, "what styles do you practise?" or "what styles do you train in?". The very clumsy wording of your question is a give-away sign that you're not a genuine martial artist.

Kong. Florida is too far away. Way too far away.

I don't want to fight you anyway becuase you are NHB fighter. I already know that brazilian jiujitsu and muy thai are good. I already know those styles are good. Those are the styles I support. I'm just saying that kung fu is horrible.

I want to fight a Kung Fu Only fighter. Someone who does ONLY kung fu. If a BJJ/Muy Thai guy beats me up, it doesn't prove kung fu to be effective

[Ironpig]

Kung fu means "hard work", I am sure that you meant to say that "traditional chinese style martial artists" were humiliated.

My response to your trolling thread would be:

There is no dishonor in losing to an honorable oponent.

If the gracies have ANY honor, how could it be humiliating to lose to them?

HMMMMM?

HAHA! You are very entertaining!

just a few pennies from a pig.....

IronPig

[NorthernMantis]

I think rolls loves kung fu in reality.That's why he's in here so much instead of practicing!

Rolls,what kung fu masters are you talking about?Never heard of them.What style did they train?

Calm down.What do you have to prove?If you think bjj is the best then good for you and quit bothering us about it,by the way haven't the gracies been losing thir past matches like it says on the other thread.

On last thing kenpo is not kung fu.It's a martial hybrid so you can't claim that.

Calm down and train hard..

"Always be ready"

[Ryu]

Roll/Kudokan,

You sure do talk a lot for someone who doesn't compete. I'm a BJJer and judo player as well who doesn't compete much, but I don't run my mouth off LOL. Hope you don't do that in real life. :)

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimura1.gif

judo legend, Masahiko Kimura

Ryu!!!! Of course i don't talk like that in real life.

[Ryu]

Ah good. Just making sure LOL.
Carry on then. ;)

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimura1.gif

judo legend, Masahiko Kimura

[apoweyn]

Josh,

Why don't you talk like that in real life?

[Dragon Warrior]

If one fighter beats another it does not mean that a style is better than another. For example, one of my kung fu bro's fought in a sport jujitsu tournement and beat a bjj stylist. Next match he lost to a bjj stylist.

Does the first match mean that kung fu is better than bjj, or course not.

Does the second match mean that bjj is better than kung fu, again no

Also, these fights do not mean that a fighter will always beat another, he might lose to the person he beat before, and might beat the person who beat him if they fought again.

The more you fight different styles, the more you start to realize that no style is superior to another.

In my opinion the best fighters are the most mentally prepared for the fights. When you watch Royce Gracie fight, ecspecially in the earlier ufc's, you can see that he is very prepared mentally. This holds for all great fighters, look at Roy Jones and Mosley. Not only are they physically prepared, but in their minds they are ready for war.

Unless you are experience in fighting, you probably dont know what i am talking about, but if you have fought in a lot of tournements you know about that butterfly feeling that will cause you to fight horribly (no matter how physically prepared you are) if you are not mentally prepared for it.

I dont give a God ****,
on the fights you did,
how many moves you got,
or who knows you kid,
cause i don't know you therefore show me what you know,
i come sharp as a blade and i'll cut you slow (GZA Wu-Tang Clan)
Chris V.

[Ford Prefect]

>>>Keith Hackney was an air conditioning or window installation guy who practiced kempo a couple nights a week, and by Royce's admission struck harder than Kimo, Shamrock, or Severn.<<<

You forgot to mention he was a former Navy SEAL. Just the intensity and mind-set those guys have would make 'em a worthy opponent for most people.

"Who's house?"
"I said RUN's house."

[Stranger]

Intensity would be about the only attribute that would carry over from his SEAL days. SEALS are not highly trained H2H experts. Conditioning fades quickly, and by his own admission he was only training part time. I am sure he was in killer shape in BUDS and through his time with the SEALS, but he doesn't have perma-conditioning. The benefit of commando intensity/psyche however, is a valid point. As was mentioned, Royce was pretty intense also after me mauled by Rickson in his training. (PS Rickson taught US Seals when he was 18! You can buy the footage on the internet. Fabio Santos has also worked with the SEALs). SEALS spend like one billionth of their training time worrying about H2H.

The Tao is an uncarved block of wood in which all shapes are possible.

[Ford Prefect]

Yeah, everybody knows the SEALS barely train H2H. However, IMHO anybody that can make it through BUDS and then operate on a SEAL team is nobody I want to mess with regardless of technical skill.

"Who's house?"
"I said RUN's house."

[GinSueDog]

Anyone can claim to train the SEALs, there isn't any universal SEAL training program after all. It is all up to the commander of the team and what he thinks his guys need, the Navy high ups for the most part stays out of it. Some SEAL teams are not designed for H2H combat and are unlikely to be put in such a situation (like the boat teams and UDT teams), others like SEAL Team 6 have a very strong chance of being put into a H2H situation. The only force in the United States that trains all there soldiers in H2H combat is the US Army's Rangers which incorporates BJJ into it. Anyways my only point is, it isn't that big a deal that Rickson was training SEALs, a lot of people can make the same claim and have, how do you think SCARS makes it's money?-ED

[Watchman]

GinSueDog, you may have gotten your info about the "Rangers doing BJJ" from an A&E show about fighting arts. The show interviewed some Ranger Captain that "just happend to be" a personal student of Rickson Gracie. While that portion of the show may have gave the impression that every Ranger studies BJJ as part of his training, that is in fact not the case. Just like the SEALs, each Ranger company has a lot of latitude about what they incorporate into their regular training, and individual Ranger Captains can set specific training requirements for the guys under their individual commands.

You know if I was a Ranger Captain, you'd be for **** sure that every person under my command would be training in Wing Chun -- and there would not be a **** thing they could do about it. :D

BTW, the captain they interviewed also said that, "this training has no place on the battlefield, and we would never try it in combat" but said the reason he had his men practice BJJ was to learn "discipline".

You may have gotten your info from somewhere else, and if so I apologize.

Anyway, I've got a student cycling into Ranger training soon, so I'll have to ask him if they make him do BJJ if he manages to make it through the training and get himself into a Ranger company.

"Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous." -- Confucious

[GinSueDog]

Watchman,
From what I have heard and read, a program of twelve basics developed by the Torrance Academy for the Army is being taught as part of the ranger training. Any new rangers will have to learn those twelve basics as part of there hand to hand training inorder to become rangers. The rangers are the only US military force that requires all members to go through an extensive H2H training program as part of there ranger training (btw, that training program also includes Judo throws, karate style reverse punches, and muay thai kicks, an interesting mix). Most of my family has served or is currently serving in the military in one aspect or another, one of my Uncles was a ranger during Desert Storm and Panama. He got out just before Somalia.-ED

P.S.-I don't know what all the twelve moves are, but from what I read most of it involves positioning. Maybe someone here may have more information, I know Knifefighter trains with Royce he may have more info on the program.

[This message was edited by GinSueDog on 03-29-01 at 03:46 PM.]

[Watchman]

I respectfully stand corrected. Thanks for the additional information GinSueDog.

[GinSueDog]

Watchman,
No problem, my only point was that people making claims to training military units really isn't that big of a deal. I am curious as to what exactly is taught to various units as alot of it does involve whatever the CO thinks they need. I was surprized to see rangers reverse punching each other in the chest at there ranger school. Most hand to hand training from what I have heard is pretty basic and varies depending on the needs and wants of the CO. Let us know how it goes with your student, I am really curious. BTW, I did see a show on discovery about the rangers that had an interview with one of the drill instructors teaching the BJJ and he seemed kinda bias or inexperienced anyways. I think there were a lot of posts on it sometime ago.-ED

[Stranger]

I understand that just getting through BUDS makes you a badass, but it doesn't qualify you to step into a highly controlled enviornment like the octagon and fight somebody who trains 8+ hours a day for that particular scenario.

I also understand that it was no huge accomplishment as a MA to give one seminar to the SEAL teams. My point was that the SEALs don't train H2H much, and they consider Rickson to be their senior in H2H knowledge even though he has never been to BUDS or acquired the diverse combat skills a SEAL has. It is a matter of Rickson and ROyce being specialists and SEALs have to operate in many more possible combat scenarios.

The Tao is an uncarved block of wood in which all shapes are possible.

[Watchman]

Stranger, a perfect case in point was one of the UFC 2 fighters named David Levicki. He actually served in SEAL Team 6 for five years during the whole Iran/Iraq fracas, but didn't make it through the preliminaries of the Octagon.

I knew the guy personally and was there in Denver to see it all go down. Dave survived extended combat action in "the desert", but got squelched in a NHB tournament. Go figure.

[Archangel]

He also fought in the Japanese Vale Tudo. He was a Wing Chun fighter and a big strong guy, unfortunately he met Rickson Gracie in the Semi finals and got squashed. Rickson was kind of a **** in that fight getting full mount and smashing David in the face well after he tapped out.

[KnightSabre]

Yeah I remmember that Rickson,Levicki fight.David is massive,I'm sure he's close to 6'8 300.Anywayz Rickson gave him a pretty bad beating,at one stage he was kind of sitting on him and driving knees into his back.

[Watchman]

Actually, applying the term "Wing Chun fighter" to him is a misnomer. Levicki's entire Wing Chun training consisted of spotty attendance to a bi-weekly two hour class over the course of little more than a year.

After he washed out of UFC 2 he hooked up with Gerard Gerdeu's Kamakura organization and shipped off to Holland to study Savate and Sambo before he got spanked by Rickson. If you want to know why Rickson was a little "mean", it's because Levicki had apparently made some "choice" remarks about/to Rickson before the fight. At least that's what Levicki told my brother.

Anyway, the fact that Art Davie ever let him into UFC 2 is beyond me. I still have the program (and my security pass) from the event, and every single piece of information on Levicki that was published in the promotional material was a complete fabrication by Art Davie, including Levicki's actual real experience and his "fight record".

It makes you wonder about the other fighters as well. It has been good to see the talent pool and skill level of the UFC grow since it was sold off by the Gracies.

[reemul]

15 years does not a master make, at least from our perspective, so let me clarify.

Shaolin systems (old school that is) regard mastery as "life devotion". It was unheard of acknowledgement of mastery to occur under the age of about 35 to 40 years old. I have 12 years experience and I'm only regarded as an advanced student. I may become an instructor soon, however that is still not a master.

[Archangel]

And still no Kung fu guys entering. I know there were a few in the early UFC's, but since then hasn't anybody in the Kung Fu community wanted to become a professional fighter.

[Watchman]

True, and point taken.

[Dragon Warrior]

just give it some time. Kung fu guys will start to participate in more nhb events. Right now it is just not very popular with kung fu stylist.

I dont give a God ****,
on the fights you did,
how many moves you got,
or who knows you kid,
cause i don't know you therefore show me what you know,
i come sharp as a blade and i'll cut you slow (GZA Wu-Tang Clan)
Chris V.

[chongnoi]

As a former US Army Ranger and Special Forces veteran, here is the truth about h2h in training. In Ranger training (both RIP and Ranger School) h2h was part of the curriculum-which consisted of throwing, puching, palm stiking, and just all out fighting in a saw dust pit. It was bacically a combination of judo, bjj, karate and just learning to be aggressive. We also did quite a bit of bayonet training and ran bayonet obstacle courses. In ranger school the h2h training probably was bout 5 three-four hours sessions if i remember right. as for Special forces (the green berets) there was no official h2h training during the "Q" course (the basic 6 month qualification course), but once on a team, many teams had there own programs from time to time and many special forces soldiers practiced some martial arts in their free time. As far as spending time training h2h, well there are more important things for a special operations soldier to train at such as patrolling, reaction drills, shooting, communciation, fire support, medical emergencies, teaching methods (special forces are primarily advisors overseas)-If in a military combat situation you have to use h2h then you have already lost and are up the creek without a paddle!

[reemul]

For the most part most styles of Kung fu, especially those with ties to the monastary, promote a different mindset. It is not our goal to show the world "I am the greatest fighter ever". That "high school" mentality seems to fit in well with the grapplers though. I'm not say a "real" kungfu practioner will never show, just commenting on why we're not lining up for the "****ing contest".

[Watchman]

Thank you very much for your perspective.

[rogue]

chongnoi, where'd you work?

[chongnoi]

HHC, 2/75 RGR '86-'89, Ranger School Class 2-88, ODA 173 (A Co, 3d Bn, 1st SFG(A) )'92-'93