Southern Spear?

[Lohan Fury]

Don't chew me out on this one, I really just want to know:

Why is Southern Kung Fu's spearplay so different? It doesn't seem to have the same essence as Northern spear. Choy Lay Fut's Spinning Spear comes to mind here. I mean, the weapons can be used differently according to the style, but the principles remain the same, right?

"Spearplay like an undulating dragon", That's what my Sifu always tells me. Southern spear seemed to lack this quality IMO.
The only thing I can think of is that, due to it being primarily a Northern weapon, Southern spear forms are mainly to familiarize the practitioner with the method of attack.

It's almost like it's a completely different weapon depending on if you're a Southern or Northern practitioner. I was hoping someone could give me some history on Southern spear so that I could better understand the difference. Is there a different spearplay theory in Southern Kung Fu? Please educate me! :)

[Lohan Fury]

BTW,

Spinning Spear is still cool. As is Southern Kung Fu.:D

[Fu-Pau]

Well, if you begin with the premise that in kung fu, weapons are an extension of the body, then just as southern kung fu hand forms appear different to northern hand forms, southern weapon forms are going to be as different in appearance to northern weapon forms.
I trust that makes sense.

[CLFNole]

You should also be aware that southern spear is more similar to southern staff (single head staff). Typically southern spear is done with the right hand leading like staff, whereas in northern spear the left hand leads. The Spinning Spear form that you are referring to is known as Jau Chueng or left side spear and is a bit more northern in flavor than some of the other spear forms in our lineage but still southern in style.

Another form that some know in the Lee Koon Hung lineage is Wun Hop Cheung and this is a true northern spear form that was passed on to sifu from Shek Kin. When I learned this form i began tp understand the difference between northern and southern spear.

It is the same with staff southern staff is different from northern staff.

As the saying goes Lam Kwun Buk Cheung - Southern Staff Northern Spear.

Peace.

[Lohan Fury]

Also, do any Southern styles use the different types of spear heads, like the "bodyguard" head sold at MartialArtsMart?:confused:

[Fu-Pau]

I have only ever seen the standard 'elongated diamond shaped' spear head (with red tassel) used. That is not to say however that some schools or styles don't use something different?

By the way, I don't think that the Chinese spear (as described above) is a "northern" weapon. I think it is just as common in the south as it is in the north.

[Lohan Fury]

I agree that Southern styles use it just as much. What I was getting at is that it was more widely used in the north because of the amount of space they had, where as weapons like Butterfly Knives, to me, are primarily Southern because they are more commonly used in Southern styles where close range combat is prevalent.

I guess you're right though, you can't really call spear primarily anything due to the fact that it's used in nearly all styles of Kung Fu. Sorry if I offended anyone!!:)

And thank you for such an open response! I feel like I learned a lot!!!!!!!:D :D :cool:

[dutch]

Hi guys,

Chan Family Choy Lee Fut also has a Snake's Head Spear form. It is the Spear tip that looks like a snake (or a windy road).

Sincerely,

[Shaolinlueb]

i saw an interesting jow ga spear form, by the daughter of the master that has his school in virginia beach. she was good and the form was nice.

[alecM]

One of the reasons spears or lances are probably seen more in Northern kung fu than in the Southern systems is that the spear was originally a cavalry weapon, a good weapon to use on horseback because of it’s long reach much longer than a sword also for the same reason for foot soldiers to use against someone sitting high on horse back.
The length of spears used in the North differ 6, 9, to 12 feet.
The long spears were used to protect archers from attacking horseman much the way a pike was used to protect musketeers in European armies, I think Xingi still use this kind of spear in their practice.
Also In the Song dynasty because of trouble China was having with the constant invasions by the Mongols and the other nomadic horsemen it was compulsory in some of the northern provinces for every man to practice the spear.

[tomcat]

Hi all.
Maybe part of the difference is the differance in terrain, in Hung-gar"s plum flower spear many of the techniques could be used in a tight alley or on a boat.

[Fu-Pau]

Guys!
The whole of Southern China is not 'urban alley ways and harbours'! They do have some open spaces you know… and Northern China does have the odd building, settlement and city too, it is not all open plains either… ;)

Whatever the militaristic origins of the spear in China it has been around in Northern and Southern kung fu styles long enough to be well established as a traditional weapon in kung fu. I think the differences in usages stem mainly from the different philosophies and principles that exist between Northern and Southern kung fu styles generally.

[mono68]

As CLF Nole mentioned the Southern Spear does have similarities to the Southern Staff.(IMHO alot of similarities) In movement and power. But when playing the spear you must play it with that Dragon flowing spirit. Southern styles tend to play there weapons more rooted as opposed to Northern Styles. That is why you do not see many slap downs or arial moves as in the Southern Spear as opposed to the Northern Spaer.
Also you can not be bais for how practitioners play it. Because I have seen many Southern Spear players perform their spears as Northerners and vice versa.
That is why in the North the Spear is King of long weapons vs. the mighty Staff which is the long weapon of choice for the South.

[Lohan Fury]

I've got a whole new respect for Southern Kung Fu!!!

Today I learned a Tiger Fork form!!!! The stance and strength training is AWESOME!! I got a 13 pound Tiger Fork from martialartsmart... It's my new best friend!!!!!!!:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :D :cool:

[Fu-Pau]

You learned the tiger fork form in one day?:confused:

[mysteri]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
i saw an interesting jow ga spear form, by the daughter of the master that has his school in virginia beach. she was good and the form was nice.

shaolinlueb, thanx for the kind words for my(technichally) sijie. her and her brother both have excellent forms( i guess i prolly would too if my father were sifu!). the particular spear that u saw was called "moi fa churn" or "plum blossom spear". the jow ga spear emphasis speed and continuity when bein performed, as that's what makes it seem so "spectular" to watch. durin performance, the mark of someone w/ proficient skill in the spear is to notice that the tassle continues to flow and is never still. also, when rotated w/ power, the tassle will "flower" out(like durin the 'cheung ping churn' technique). since i like to specilaize in combat and practicality over performance, i practice the spear a lil slower but w/ root and power(and speed where necessary). this "king of long weapons"(as opposed to "grandfather of long weapons"-staff) is my favortive weapon as it requires focusin power on the spear tip, as well as accuracy and strong foundation to support the techniques. all of the staff techniques(that i have learnt thus far) can be implemented usin the spear, but there are, of course, also techniques that r particular to the spear. overall, i compare the two as spear stressin speed and staff emphasizin power. i don't really know any northern spears to compare it to, but i have noticed similarities(w/ slight differences) btwn our spear and the CLF spinnin spear form. that's enough for one day(sorry, u got on my fav. weapon bro!).

[mysteri]

Originally posted by Fu-Pau
Guys!
The whole of Southern China is not 'urban alley ways and harbours'! They do have some open spaces you know… and Northern China does have the odd building, settlement and city too, it is not all open plains either… ;)

Whatever the militaristic origins of the spear in China it has been around in Northern and Southern kung fu styles long enough to be well established as a traditional weapon in kung fu. I think the differences in usages stem mainly from the different philosophies and principles that exist between Northern and Southern kung fu styles generally.

LOL!:p i wonder what they're gonna say about us 100 years from now?"well, chow ga was bought to australia b/c of its unique mix in northern and southern chinese boxing styles. the northern style worked particularly well against the wild kangaroo's!"(btw- r there any stereotypical assumptions about the US that i don't know about? would sure be funny to find out) sorry guys, i couldn't resist :)

btw- what spear form(s) r in ur chow ga? does any of what i said hold true in ur lineage? nice for discussion...

[Eddie]

"!"(btw- r there any stereotypical assumptions about the US that i don't know about? would sure be funny to find out) sorry guys, i couldn't resist "

maybe something like this... 'northern shaolin worked well in us specially NYC because of the hip hop culture. the moves could easily be addapted to suit their break dance routines. :)

[Fu-Pau]

LOL both of you :)

Mysteri,

One way of looking at the difference between spear and staff in chow gar, is that;

When you first learn the staff you are endeavouring to make something that appears at first lifeless, come to life. Whereas when you first learn spear, you are struggling to keep control of a weapon that seems to have a life of its own.

If you have studied the chow gar staff and spear forms you should get what I mean.

cheers
Fu-Pau

[David Jamieson]

I have been taught 2 spear forms both of Northern Origin. one set is a two man set spear vs double broadswords and the other is a solo spear form.

Although I remember the sets, I can't remember the names in chinese :), but, not being a chinese speaker, that's not uncommon. It's my Gwai Lo shining through lol.

Anyway, the Teacher who taught myself and one other the sets was a classical chinese painter who happened to hang onto the forms from his youth. His name is Yan Kit, great painter and not a bad teacher of kungfu although he never said he was a sifu or anything like that. Humble too I guess :-)

I found them (the sets) to be a mix of northern and southern in flavour. Southern stances and northern hand work, jumps, rotations and attacks. Hard to explain, you'd have to see the forms to understand. I did find that one particular move in the end of the set seemed a little frivolous, I think this may just be because Mr. Yan was not 100% on the finish.

Spear is considered the "king of weapons" in TCMA and is not inherent to either north or south, both place emphasis on correct use of the weapon as a long range piece.

cheers

I should digitize the vs set and throw it up for comments, it's a pretty cool form. Stay tuned.

[mysteri]

eddie, thanx for the post :) i really don't know how most people view americans, other than we're ALL spoiled and arrogant people who don't appreciate what we have. well, i won't deny that a lot of people i know do seem to fit that bill. its jus nice to get an honest, general view of america from the outside.

fu-pau, yes, i understand exactly what u mean. good analogy.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
I have been taught 2 spear forms both of Northern Origin. one set is a two man set spear vs double broadswords and the other is a solo spear form.

Although I remember the sets, I can't remember the names in chinese :), but, not being a chinese speaker, that's not uncommon. It's my Gwai Lo shining through lol.

Anyway, the Teacher who taught myself and one other the sets was a classical chinese painter who happened to hang onto the forms from his youth. His name is Yan Kit, great painter and not a bad teacher of kungfu although he never said he was a sifu or anything like that. Humble too I guess :-)

I found them (the sets) to be a mix of northern and southern in flavour. Southern stances and northern hand work, jumps, rotations and attacks. Hard to explain, you'd have to see the forms to understand. I did find that one particular move in the end of the set seemed a little frivolous, I think this may just be because Mr. Yan was not 100% on the finish.

Spear is considered the "king of weapons" in TCMA and is not inherent to either north or south, both place emphasis on correct use of the weapon as a long range piece.

cheers

I should digitize the vs set and throw it up for comments, it's a pretty cool form. Stay tuned.

Gwai lo!...you just called yourself a racist term (directed at non-chinese) in cantonese.

The spear form was not a single set, but the one used in the spear vs broadsword...same set, not two different forms (unless you speak of a form you later learned from someone else). Yan Kit learned the set from a friend and shortened it so he could teach it to someone. This is the only set he knows of any kung fu. Humbleness has not to do with it...he did not say he was a Sifu because he is not...he is a painter/caligrapher who had learned a set from his friend. Through my Lo-Si he asked for permission to show/teach it to Lo-Si's son whom I was teaching kung-fu (but of course you know that). I said yes as long as he showed/taught it to another student of my choice. I selected you at the time.

GHD