Visual Perception drills and tips

[KingMonkey]

Lets just imagine for a second that chi-sao isnt the answer to everything and that you may need to respond to visual cues before contact is made.

Anybody have any useful drills or tips for working on this aspect of a confrontation ?

[old jong]

man sau and san sau drills or if you want to fight,walk to the guy and engage.He will throw something or you will and "bingo" contact is made!...;) But if you feel like dancing around,rubbing your nose like Bruce Lee,feel free to do it. ;) (It looks so tough!...And you can brag about sparring!) ):rolleyes:

[Ernie]

best for reflex and awarness ,
stick and knife spar ,
the stick move much faster then the hand so once your eyes and body dial in the action , a regular person looks like there in slow motion.

best for recognition , if you want to learn how to read people there balance body position intent , you need to get infront of as many different people as possible and work off them , same reason you chi sau with all types and sizes just get experience .
in reality your just learning about yourself and how you react and how you percieve .

as for specific drills , break it down in a progression , pick a toll and work off that tool '' a jab for example '' have different people fire away at you work nyour counters pak sau , just cutting what ever , then add the rear hand eleveation changes , broken rythem ,

just play and have fun with it , the more time you spend adapting to new and different people the better your ability to read is .

[Phil Redmond]

TWC advocates watching the elbow. It travels 2 times slower the the fist in a straight punch and about 4 times slower than the fist in a circular punch. It has always worked for me and my students.
It's really hard to punch or kick without moving your elbow slightly.

[joy chaudhuri]

So Phil- what do you do in the dark or in rain and mist about watching the elbow.

[Phenix]

Joy,

OMMMMM :D

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix
OMMMMM :D


and then listen to the sonar echo from the OMMMM? :D

[KingMonkey]

A useful tip Phil, I have tried this but I guess I also want to develop skills in reading cues in body language, movement that pre-empt the movement of the arm or leg. The problem also with the elbow watching is when someone is already being fairly mobile with their arms.

Joy, how would you perform chi-sao if your arms fell off ?
For the purposes of this thread lets assume you arent fighting someone in pitch darkness, torrential driving rain or 19th century Dic-kensian London.

[canglong]

So Phil- what do you do in the dark or in rain and mist about watching the elbow.

Actually this just rephrases the question of can a blind person learn WCK. The answer of course is yes. Proplerly placed Jong hands will always allow you to make contact on your own terms or to adjust to contact from either side that is its purpose. First if you are unable to sweep your gates and establish contact on your own terms the situation becomes the same as any blind side attack to which the response is always the same clear your gates away from the incoming attack establish your root to recover and then seek a position of advantage.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by KingMonkey


For the purposes of this thread lets assume you arent fighting someone in pitch darkness, torrential driving rain or 19th century Dic-kensian London.

I will go low as close as ground and rush out..... minimize area I can be targeted, low CG, avoid sliding from rain.... uses the Kneeling horse.....

It was said in the kuit of Emei 12 zhuang: reverse the medirian and using the ground rolling techincs.......

[Phil Redmond]

Joy, How would you block/parry a strike in the dark? If you can't see a punch you can't see an elbow or anything else. If you can't see you just can't see. Ideally we train the 6 eye muscles to see the elbow. It's part of our daily training. With diligent pratice many things are attainable. Hopefully your contact reflexes will come into play if you miss or can't see the elbow. But the question was regarding before contact. If someone has a better way to gauge the intent or angle of attack of an opponent please post it.

[old jong]

Some like to watch the sternum area.I like to stare the guy in the eyes . I can see his feet with adverted vision this way. TWC watch the elbows.
I think,the important thing is to be able to see the whole picture without looking at a particular hand or feet .this could render us easy prey for feints. Good positional skills will also force the opponent to go around making his attack even easier to see and deflect.

[joy chaudhuri]

Phil-sez-Joy, How would you block/parry a strike in the dark? If you can't see a punch you can't see an elbow or anything else. If you can't see you just can't see. Ideally we train the 6 eye muscles to see the elbow.
--------------------------------------------
Phil- there is a study (reported in the book which involves studies of time-Winston Churchill's Afternoon Nap) which shows at a top level- Ali etc. Ali engaged in "play ful" sparring rather than Foreman's hard sparring and Ali hada better radar.Boxers dont see the good punches. The development of "radar" equivalent is the key. Intense and frequent good chi sao creates that sense even without seeing the details. Even when one sees a vague shape or a blurr- you develop skills of measuring distance and timing. Watching elbows is too slow- besides a sharp guy can fake a person out with a slight elbow move.Even in the dark one can sense contrasts.

Lots of good chi sao and/or experience matters.

Hopefully there isnt a gun or knife. Run if you can. But there must be that instant decision- fight or flight. The mind is an important key.

[Phenix]

Joy,

The thousand hand eyes of avalokitesvara boddhisatva.

Hand is eye. and eye is hand....


They called it eyes then now radar then? datacollector.... :D


Who said Ali might or might not a Sangha or a Yogic in the past life. when he dances in the stage after he shout "I am number one" show business, he gets back to his nature. No abiding...... "



Hopefully there isnt a gun or knife. Run if you can. But there must be that instant decision- fight or flight. The mind is an important key.---joy

when it is the time to live, live. when it is the time to die, die.
when it is a gun, it is a gun. easy say then do yup. but ultimately do we have a choice? probarbly not. following the flow might be the best bet. who knows. :D

[Phenix]

Try the six enterance chapter:

http://online.sfsu.edu/%7Erone/Buddhism/Shurangama/ps.ss.02.v3.020526.screen.pdf

[Phil Redmond]

Watching the elbow may be too slow for you. But not for me. And of course we take the 'fake' move into account. Everyone has different abilities. I've made money betting that I can read an elbow. And the guys I know will really try to hit you if money's involved. Also, I'd never write about this if I personally couldn't pull it off. We all have our preferences. I'd never say what you could or couldn't pull off without first and knowledge. I smiled when you said it was too slow. You still didn't answer my question. How would 'you' fight in the dark. Dark to me means dark. Can you see in the dark? If so, that's amazing.
Phil

[yuanfen]

Joy,

The thousand hand eyes of avalokitesvara boddhisatva.
((or Kuan Yin))

((BTW P. Zarilli has a nice book on the South Indian very old art of kalaripayyatu..the title is something like- the body hasa thousand eyes. Some people are making extravagant claims or kalaripayyatu- I am skeptical about much of it. But there is the universal sino-Indian concepts of nadis and meridians of accupuncture points and marmas of chi and prana vayu. I very much prefer wing chun- far more subtle))

Who said Ali might or might not a Sangha or a Yogic in the past life. when he dances in the stage after he shout "I am number one" show business, he gets back to his nature. No abiding...... "

((Apart from his showmanship- quite a person- met him twice briefly- once when he came to train in Northern Arizona for one of his fights and once in Calcutta outside of Mother Teresa's. The game was mostly mental for him- as Foreman painfully learned.
He comes to the Valley here sometimes- raises money for Barrow's neurological institute))))))





when it is the time to live, live. when it is the time to die, die.
when it is a gun, it is a gun. easy say then do yup. but ultimately do we have a choice? probarbly not. following the flow might be the best bet. who knows.

((When its time to go----never worry but I will get that dam wabbit in my next life))))

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
((BTW P. Zarilli has a nice book on the South Indian very old art of kalaripayyatu..the title is something like- the body hasa thousand eyes. Some people are making extravagant claims or kalaripayyatu- I am skeptical about much of it. But there is the universal sino-Indian concepts of nadis and meridians of accupuncture points and marmas of chi and prana vayu. I very much prefer wing chun- far more subtle))




Watch out your attachment to Wing Chun. That will cost you to become Chinese and or married a Chinese next life. Don't you know it is a chinese trap? or Kwan Yin's trap? oh no Avalokitesvara is sanskrit also....:D

[yuanfen]

Watching the elbow may be too slow for you. But not for me.

((I wasnt talking about you or me. See the reference to the study
I mentioned. The human hand is indeed faster than the eye.))

You still didn't answer my question. How would 'you' fight in the dark. Dark to me means dark. Can you see in the dark? If so, that's amazing.

((See my posts again. I dont depend on eyesight alone. Well honed sense of timing and sensual integration and training results in a heightened sensitivity to the environment and changes in the environment .Of course the dark is less than optimum conditions for anyone or any empty hand system...
without tech.
You have already made my point- there are times when you cant see in the dark- so all the other senses and ways of knowing
have to compensate. Still may not work- sniper's bullet or a machete...life. BUT looking at the elbow wont work for sure in the dark. I know that William Cheung urges looking at the elbow.
I dont- so we have different perspectives Phil... which is ok with me. Part of the diversities in wing chun)))

[Phil Redmond]

Joy/yuanfen,
I have friend that studied kalaripayyatu. I have seen demos of their 'coiled' swords. What varna, (caste) are they from? I've heard much about the caste system that is unlawful on the books but still widely practiced in India. The Brahmans won't have anything to do with the Achutas or even Ghandi who was a Vaisya.

[yuanfen]

Phil-
For many reasons including the snobbery in the caste based code of Manu- I shifted my personal compass towards Buddhism, though other beautiful things I retained.
Kalaripayyatu folks have their snobbish history. In practice different kinds of people are practising kalaripayyatu these days.
But in its origins the Kerala Brahmins usually were the gurus.
They symbolically traced their ancestry to the classic Brahmin hero Parasuram who carried an axe for chopping down Khatriyas.
You know they have animal forms.

But things change. Now there is a Muslim group in Kerala who also have their own kalari.

India once was major reservoir of martial arts. Many have died out-
partly due to the British but also due to urbanization and other social changes. Some arts were exported to southeast asia. That is why you have terms like guro and pandekar in Phillipines and Indonesia. Even Hari Mau a groundfighting "tiger" art is Indian in
origin.

But going back to equality- caste is illegal in public life- but like
remnants of segregation here lurks elsewhere. But balanced with it are great strides in equality. The last President(Narayan) of India came froma low caste. India has hada strong woman(Indira) as primeminister. The first ambassador from any country to the US who was a woman was the Indian, Vijay Lakhsmi Pandit. India is the world's largest democracy... among other things they love elections. There is always one going on somewhere.
In my early years there was top level classic grappling(kusthi),
fistwork(mushti), stick work(lathi) and knife work(chora, bhojali/kukhri) and sword work (talwar). the Sikhs in the villages have their "Gatkha"- weapons dances. And then there are the Gurkhas in Nepal and India. Archery in Ladakh and manipur. I have also seen fighting on tall stilts.... asa sport. Sharpened coins, throwing chakras- small and big(Xena), garroting and choking arts, the thugees, various steel hand weapons--- quite
a smorgasbord that is fast fading and partly gone.
One park near my house used to have top notch arts- now some stupid folks wear gis on somedays- kiya and do tae kwan do-
pass the bucket please.

[sihing]

I know this is an old one, but I find this subject of visual perception to be very important in the arena of combat. Watching the elbow, IMO, is the best way to perceive any type of attack. You can still zone in on the attackers body language, intentions by watching the elbow. If the elbow is not in proper visual range ( therefore not in front of your opponents body) then that means one thing, ATTACK. I wouldn't be watching his/her elbow if the arms were by their sides, only when they are in a good defensive position, as most good boxers would be.

When watching the elbow, the rest of the lower extremities can be observed also. When a kick is performed the eyes would turn to the knee to give a clue as to the kick being performed. Also when one wants to move the knee must move also. There is also the clue of which type of attack will be performed, especially punching and kicking type of attacks. The way the body sets itself up to perform one or the other is quiet different, and can also help in reaction time.

Although I believe visual perception is vital to combat, without the proper training in other areas of WC, then it is almost useless, but if you put a blindfold on and try to fight from a non-contact position, then most every other fighting attribute will be out the window. Just an opinion.



Sihing

[Ultimatewingchun]

KingMonkey:

Let me add a few things to what Phil has been saying...all of which is correct, IMO. But let me try a different angle, so to speak.

Elbows move 2x slower than the fist when the blow is straight...4x slower when it is round. (The same for knees and feet - as regards kicks).

In other words...if the elbow travels the same amount of distance as the fist - but takes TWICE as much time to do it...then it is moving MUCH slower...and is therefore EASIER to see - which means you can react in time to deal with the blow successfully.

Now...as regards your concern with reacting to body movement, you wrote the following:

"I have tried this (watching elbows) but I guess I also want to develop skills in reading cues in body language, movement that pre-empt the movement of the arm or leg."

Elbows/knees are VERY close to the body...so peripheral vision should allow you to see the torso movement as well. And notice I'm emphasizing looking at both elbows AND knees...pretty much simultaneously.

Your eyes are constantly scanning the AREA...(ie.- nearest elbow and the opposite knee...for example - his left elbow and his right knee...Now the whole body image is being observed (scanned) simultaneously.

I hope this helps to explain things a little.

You also wrote:

"The problem also with the elbow watching is when someone is already being fairly mobile with their arms."

In addition to what I've already said about this...I don't know what attack/defense strategy you use...but in TWC we are constantly trying to come in and engage the arms (and the nearer to his elbow the better)....and/or just looking for lines to come in on and throw strikes on... so as to strike the body or the face/head area.

In other words...we try to control his movement by jamming up his ability to constantly disengage us and throw another strike, kick, whatever. And oftentimes this is done by controlling (ie.- lop sao, gum sao, jut sao, etc.)...the very elbow we were just watching.

So in other words, at this distance, the chi sao tactile (contact) reflexes start to kick in as well....in terms of being able to "read" his intentions.

[KingMonkey]

What a difference a year makes :-)

Thanks for your suggestions guys. I must admit the elbow thing didnt work too well for me and I've settled on aiming my vision at approximately the centre of the torso and relying on peripheral vision.

One change that has helped me is attitude and range control.
My initial training told me that I should always go forward and deal with the opponents attack on the way in. My old WC instructor would use the logic that you should only give the other guy one chance to hit you and that moving back as opposed to in would be giving him multiple chances to hit.
This seems reasonable but I am now beginning to understand range and movement much better.
The most important thing is making initial contact with the opponent on your terms.
I'm currently working more on controlling the range and hanging back slightly and riding the attack back in. See some of the suggestions from 'Bridging Against Boxers' for example.
I have found that this has helped a lot. I use range control, head movement and my hands to deal with the opponents limb then transition into an entry rather than attempting to enter immediately and deal with the limb on the way in. This slight difference in how much time I have to detect, track and react has made a big difference for me.

Incidentally apologies for the double entendre. :-)