The bodies [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Phenix

08-06-2003, 12:59 AM

One of the old ways to tie these topics together is understanding the five elements model and its cycles of promotion and destruction as well as the imbedded theory of Yin/Yang. --- P

These all are great but it is too general. IMHO.

As in Taiji classic said " every place has its Yin/Yang". So, there is lots and lots of daily details needs to be examined.
As an example, people who is not great in using leg trying to close gap by attacking with rising knee or leg is going to get one into serious troube. See how many got sweap down by Mua Thai or Kyokushin or BJJ? IT doesn't mean closing the gap with leg doesn't work. it is just those details and .... has to be master and truely experience.

IMHO, SLT is design to experiment with all these different bodies. IF there is a core philosophy of WCK. Then, the SLT is the presentation of this philosophy. or simply ask so what is the philosophy of WCK? what is SLT trying to tell?
Though luck if one has 5 SLT/SNT/ASLT/AASLT/AAOSNT in one system.

PaulH

08-06-2003, 03:15 AM

Okay, Hendrik. The question intrigues me. Putting aside my personal beliefs in SLT's core fighting design and its corresponding fighting solutions, what does SLT tell us? And what is the core philosophy of WCK? Touching on the metaphysics, all are born to live their life with empty hands in the beginning and will go to their grave with no earthly gains in the end. Is this "it"? I personally find more comforts in this psalmist's song: "Thou shall show me the path of life. In thy presence, there is fullness of joy. At thy right hand, there are pleasures forevermore." This personal quest of mine for the Unknown has been most exciting and worthwhile to live and die for every single moment.

Regards,

Phenix

08-06-2003, 09:05 AM

what does SLT tell us? ---P

What kind of music one heard when one is doing SLT?
Thunder,
Raining,
Wave washing the beach,
Calm lake's lite tide,
Wind blowing,
Flute,
Saxaphone,
Drump,
running water,
Flowing Creek.
mid-night,
dawn

What do one heard? -HS

And what is the core philosophy of WCK? -P

What kind of scene one watches while practicing SLT?

Soap opera,
Lion King,
Grouching tiger and Hidden dragon,
rising sun,
Sea surf
Midnight moon,
Fist of Furry
Matrix
Spiderman
Hero
Little Buddha
terminator 2
Rambo
Rocky
Starwars
rainbow
silk in the wind
pressing at a elivating ballon

What do one see? -HS

Touching on the metaphysics, all are born to live their life with empty hands in the beginning and will go to their grave with no earthly gains in the end. --P

True but we all have character even all phenomenon is impermanent.

So, Lets carefully observe and figure out What does SLT's style close to if it is a human ? The way it moves; the way it dress; the way it shown; the way it behave;

Arnold Schwarzenegger,
Keanu Reeves,
Carrie-Anne Moss,
Cameron Diaz,
Lucy Liu,
Ziyi Zhang,
Chuck Noris,
Bruce Lee?

And why? There might not "An" answer, but via the thinking process one will "see". --HS

Is this "it"? I personally find more comforts in this psalmist's song: "Thou shall show me the path of life. In thy presence, there is fullness of joy. At thy right hand, there are pleasures forevermore." This personal quest of mine for the Unknown has been most exciting and worthwhile to live and die for every single moment. --P

Thus, as heard,
At the instant of Enlightenement, one "see" that "i" is actually just an indicator, the constant flowing positive stream is the "it". Thus, there after, one flows with this stream to learn, to comprehend, to experience full heart and full mind. Nothing fail but keep getting better, Nothing wrong but keep adjusting to wholesome. Every instant is a great instant, keep growing, keep moving forward, and keep influence in a positive way.

SLT -- The Buddha's immoveable wisdom, the water's No abiding body movement, the precision movement of Rolex. --- The rest, the awareness, the concentration, the Medirian, the breathing, the spine, the spiral with physical path, the linear traveling of Yee,,,,,,,and yet lots not explore yet....,, those are details to be learn, examine, understood, experience and master.

So what about the application? the question is when one with all "money" in the bank what do one wants to "get"? Sure, one has to learn how to write a check. Sign a credit card reciep, do a wire transfer.
do a website transfer. automatic monthly transfer. anything ... and can use any new invention of electronics way.. or any way.
make the "money" and after learning those 'way' to do payment. get whatever as one likes. and the way of payment never stop....new way keep comes up. But then, USD is not Piso not Yen not Euro not Gold not oil ... and it doesn't have to. USD is good in its way. The quetion remain is do one really really really wants to get Diaz as wife? it is a big responsibilites:D. With all those money doesn't mean one will get Diaz if one not make a decision. Thus, WCK is not a back up. it is a tool. One needs to make a decision of using it or not.

Who to say this is it? Who to say this is not it? What is yours?
That can be different to mine. Who said it has to be the same?
Spring is wide screen 70mm and sound surround it is not belong to any individual it is everyones' . everyone means everyone... from ants to bird to the jerk in the dark alley to the pricess in the tower.

Sweat dream.:D

PaulH

08-06-2003, 08:34 PM

Aye, it's a hard saying. Who can fathom the immovable wisdom of Buddha? This will take me some time to fully digest your stuffs especially the precision movement of the Rolex in SLT.
You remind me of Marcel Proust though. I will repost again one of his quotes.

"We do not succeed in changing things according to our desires, but gradually our desire changes. The situation that we hoped to change because it was intolerable becomes unimportant. We have not managed to surmount the obstacle, as we were absolutely determined to do, but life has taken us round it, led us past it, and then if we turn round to gaze at the remote past, we can barely catch sight of it, so imperceptible has it become. - Marcel Proust "

Regards,

Ernie

08-06-2003, 11:47 PM

to the jerk in the dark alley
hey keep me out of this:D

PaulH

08-07-2003, 12:08 AM

Sorry, bro! He is still trapped within his own internal dialogues and won't be able to boogie you for a while. You see there are such things as the Buddha's fingers and you, my Monkey King friend are imprisoned inside these powerful and unseen fingers of this thread. Ha! Ha!

Phenix

08-07-2003, 02:33 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
to the jerk in the dark alley
hey keep me out of this:D

OK you always with those great celebrities from Holywood. :D

Ernie

08-07-2003, 02:37 AM

if you ask real nice i can get you corey feldmans autograph , you know only the '' a list '' for me :D

Phenix

08-07-2003, 02:45 AM

. Who can fathom the immovable wisdom of Buddha? --P

OK let's say we brought up the Kuen Kuit.

" Lai Lau Hui Song, Lat Sau Jek Chong" or comes retain, goes send it away. dis attached going direct.

Let's investigate what does this Kuen kuit means in Heart (mind) domain, in breathing domain, in physical body domain.

Say in breathing domain, what is the breathing pattern while doing comes retain? Goes Send it away? Ok, say comes retain is inhale. Send it away is exhale.

Now, say in Medirian or qi flow domain, what is the pattern while doing comes retain? since the 3 ying hand medirians are travelling out by nature, so it must related to the 3 yang hand medirians.....

So.... similar with heart, body.....ect domain.

Ok, now, comes retain doesn't mean one always has to use hand , can one use leg? or elbow? or knee? or may be just use vision to track without using physical? ....

So ...similar with the above example... one can expand to all details.....

and now, there is a core, which is the no abiding or no stop mind... what is that? the unfettered Mind book actually give a real detail description... This certainly link up to spiritual level....

So, from vision, hearing, mind capturing.... breathing... to physical to spiritual.... all are a holistic system. ....
Every domain is tangible once one knows about it.

Have Fun!
:D

Phenix

08-07-2003, 02:48 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
if you ask real nice i can get you corey feldmans autograph , you know only the '' a list '' for me :D

Hey can you hook me up with Diaz:D

Ernie

08-07-2003, 02:56 AM

i think she is part cuban and i'm cuban maybe we are related i'll see what i can do :D

Phenix

08-07-2003, 03:13 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
i think she is part cuban and i'm cuban maybe we are related i'll see what i can do :D

If I am rich enough, I will get her as the model for SLT.

Or may be if I mix Wing Chun with BJJ and creat a new system.
I will called it Wing Babe instead of Wing Chun. Diaz should be great to model that also. :D

Rene,
You need to reserve a place in www.wingchunkuen.com
for Wing Babe !

After the MANY FAMILY ONE ART.
Then, ONE ART MANY BABE! :D

http://www.apple.com/trailers/columbia/charliesangelsfullthrottle/home_bosley.html
This is a great front page.....
NO MORE 6.5 pole. Let's do something new Rene. :D

Jim, did you develop this new weapon in Hawaii? Look like a pole with computer effect.

PaulH

08-07-2003, 03:27 AM

Okay, Hendrik! So that's what In N' Out Burger is all bout! Just in and out. Ha! Ha! Great connection of the Kuen Kuit to the bodies. I agree that much details on the various bodies are needed to flesh out this core frame of non abiding mind. Off to butt my head against Ernie. Thanks for the info on the eyesight or mind capture.

Regards,

Phenix

08-07-2003, 07:51 PM

Hi Pual,

one is for all, all is for one. Kuen kuit is mind. Mind is Kuen Kuit. Kuen kuit is body. Body is kuen kuit. Kuen kuit is breathing. Breathing is Kuen kuit.
hand is eye, eye is hand. ... haven't you see the ten thousand Hand eyes of Kwan Yin? hand can see and eye can Chi (as chi sau)....

IMHO,
As we grow older and older.... in life.
We seems to forget about what we want and program on what should we do.

To think I need to do Tan Sau this way with this shape. I need to do Wu sau....I need to use Bong Sau to solve this... otherwise it is not WCK.... these are all what we should not thinking. IMHO.

What do we want? if we can have everything as wishes provided not violating others and disturb others' life and wellfair.

Ok we want to pin him strong. Then, let's work on pin him strong. sure he is going to be fast, mean,...... don't worried of it is called Tan sau or TAHN Sau. If one trans long time in SLT. It is similar to get seasons into a perfume. We can go to opera house, We can go to Luis Vutton shop..... we carry the smell of perfume without thinking of it.

otherwise, today this guy comes with Muay Thai Kick; one is trying to neutralize the kick with Tan, and.... tomorrow that guy comes with BJJ .... there is no end of what others can and will come out.

If the focus is clear. "I" am going to Pin you down. it can be with tan sau, pak sau,.... anything. the body knows best how to adapt since one has it seasons with SLT. Thus, one is not abiding to a technics or stop the mind there. Thus, that is the reason I argue Tan cannot be the ulitmate technics of WCK such as in the tale of Tan Sau Ng. because it violates the no abiding and set one into the dead end of stoping one's mind in a Tahn. Some might disagree with me and that is great. In No way I claim I know it all and my idea is the perfect supreme ooommmm. No mean of put others down, I like to be toug but reasonable.

The same with life. why worried about if I am a little taller, a little stronger,,,,,,, we go through all what we needs to learn... certainly it is great to stay doing one thing for ten years, if that is the mission of one's life, or be an obidient student of a sifu. but for others it is impractical to think so. since we all have to walk our own life we all have to grow and grow mean alots of old believe has melt down.... like a phoenix burn into ashes clean and rebuild.
a phoenix dies once in every domain until no more domain to be explore......because one is familiar with every domain. Thus, that is mastery. Not the Champion of fighting, but understand what it is about.

To master WCK is no different than to master life. WCK is a mirror and we are the one in the mirror. wck is life. often one never fight even one train WCK for decade. so might as well using wck philosophy in everyday life. one has to live every instant. So, what do one wants? study Tan sau to perfection, that is great. Study Body structure? Be able to analyse every related domain? for entertainment? .... the question starts with what do one wants and not what should I do according to others. and the ultimate is what can one serve others to make others benifit and the world more happier and peace.

.

Just my two cents.

PaulH

08-07-2003, 09:07 PM

Beautiful and inspiring words, Hendrik! I like especially the followings:

the body knows best how to adapt since one has it seasons with SLT. Thus, one is not abiding to a technics or stop the mind there. Thus, that is the reason I argue Tan cannot be the ulitmate technics of WCK such as in the tale of Tan Sau Ng. because it violates the no abiding and set one into the dead end of stoping

a phoenix dies one in every domain until no more domain to be explore......because one is familiar with every domain. Thus, that is mastery. Not the Champion of fighting, but understand what it is about.

To master WCK is no different than to master life. WCK is a mirror and we are the one in the mirror.

All I have to do is to make my wish comes true. Watch out, Ernie! This grasshopper can bite! Ha! Ha!

Regards,

Phenix

08-08-2003, 12:43 AM

Pual,

Inspration is not good enough, See, how is the detail of training.

According to Surangama sutra-------

Sutra:
“Initially, I entered the flow through hearing and forgot
objective states. Since the sense-objects and sense-organs were
quiet, the two characteristics of movement and stillness
crystallized and did not arise. After that, gradually advancing,
the hearing and what was heard both disappeared. Once the
hearing was ended, there was nothing to rely on, and awareness
and the objects of awareness became empty. When the
emptiness of awareness reached an ultimate perfection,
emptiness and what was being emptied then also ceased to be.
Since production and extinction were gone, still extinction was
revealed.

Commentary:
“Initially, I entered the flow through hearing and forgot
objective states.” With the wisdom of hearing, one listens inside,
not outside. Not chasing after the objects of sound means not
following them out. Earlier, the text spoke of not following the six
sense-organs and not being turned by them. This is known as,
Returning the hearing to hear the self-nature.
Returning the hearing means not listening to external sounds but
turning back instead to hear your own self-nature. It means,
Gathering in your body and mind.
It means not seeking outside.
Turn the light around and shine it within.
Here the text says that Gwan Shr Yin Bodhisattva “entered the
flow,” which means he returned and listened to the self-nature.
Enter the flow of the Dharma-nature of a sage.
Volume One – Twenty-five Means to Enlightenment 138
He “forgot the objective states.” All the “dust” – the defiling
objects of the six-sense objects as perceived by the six sense-organs
– was forgotten.
“Since the sense-objects and sense-organs were quiet, the
two characteristics of movement and stillness crystallized and
did not arise.” The source of the six sense-organs and six senseobjects
ceased to be. It was severed. Here he entered the flow of his
own self-nature. When that happens, your self-nature is still and
quiet. When this quietude reaches an ultimate point, the appearance
of movement and stillness ceases as well. Basically, movement
appears as movement and stillness as stillness, but now, although
these two characteristics are as clear as crystal, they do not arise.
“After that, gradually advancing, the hearing and what was
heard both disappeared.” As this pure and clear state of quiet
increased, as day by day it became more full and complete, the
hearing that was capable of hearing the self-nature eventually
disappeared. It, too, was gone. The ability to hear and the objects of
hearing both vanished. The organ of the ear was capable of hearing,
and the self-nature was what was being heard, but now they, too,
were gone. “Once the hearing was ended, there was nothing to
rely on.” Since the hearing-nature was gone, there was no
attachment. At that time it was “producing the mind that does not
dwell anywhere.”
“Awareness and the objects of awareness became empty.”
Even the perception of awareness vanished – was emptied out.
“When the emptiness of awareness reached an ultimate
perfection, emptiness and what was being emptied then also
ceased to be.” The emptiness of the nature of awareness reached an
ultimate state of perfection. Then the mind capable of creating
vanished, as did the states that were made empty, so that then there
wasn’t even any emptiness! As long as emptiness remains, you’re
still attached to emptiness. But now, for Gwan Yin Bodhisattva
there wasn’t even any emptiness......

Sutra:
“World Honored One, because I served and made offerings
to the Thus Come One, Gwan Yin, I received from that Thus
Come One a transmission of the Vajra Samadhi of all being like
an illusion, as one becomes permeated with hearing and
cultivates hearing. Because I gained a power of compassion
identical with that of all Buddhas, the Thus Come Ones, I
became accomplished in thirty-two response-bodies and
entered all lands....

http://online.sfsu.edu/%7Erone/Buddhism/Shurangama/ps.ss.02.v5.020526.screen.pdf

-Twenty five means to enlightenment.
- the ear organ

have fun. This is Hendrix Poter --- the order of the phenix :D
Ernie, how fast is fast when there is weight less? :D

PaulH

08-08-2003, 02:17 AM

Hendrik,

Thanks! The devil is in the details allright. I can't see the "meaning" because of the "words". When I have the Matrix universal translator, I'll decipher the rest of your buddhist codes. Ha! Ha!

It's not that I don't get it at all, but rather how do I know that I really know or understand what I just read. It could be a mind trick where my mind thinks it understands, but is this what it is? For example, on the stillness and movement how do you know that you are done away with the hearing. It could be your mind tricking you into thinking that you are empty when you are not.

Regards,

Phenix

08-08-2003, 04:07 AM

Pual,

Ok. lets then look at something simple.

Say, from the great article of Chen Xiao-Wang.

it written:

------------------

"Yundong Guilu"
Chen Xiaowang calls this the "Yundong Guilu" (the Principle of Movements) and expresses it as:

Yi dantien wei hai xin.
Yi dong quan shen bi dong.
Jie jie guan chuan.
Yi qi guan tong.

Dantien is at the heart of the body's motion
Once a part moves, the whole body moves
Joint by joint energy threads through
Thus the force transmits unimpeded in one action

----------------------

let for fun of it see how many "bodies" or domains involved and what is the details there.

Now, IMHO, the translation has a slight distortion one of the "body" was surely missing. "I " see There are five bodies in the Chinese
writting but only 3 in the English translation.
With one "domain" missing the process cannot be completely synthesis.

I might be wrong. So look at it and see what do you see. IMHO, SLT is a good training for analise the heck out of things... that is the characteristic of the Precision of Rolex Movement. If one can precisely analyze, one can simulate, one can synthesis. one can clone. one can break the gong.......
The key of Siu Lien Tau, the training of the small.

PaulH

08-08-2003, 04:16 AM

I see mind, physical body, and internal body energy. Although Dan tien is associated with breathing. So breathing body is implied indirectly to make sense of the text.

Phenix

08-08-2003, 04:27 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
I see mind body, physical body, and internal body energy.

Actually there is mind body , physical body, breathing body, qi flow body, the Jing body.

Somehow the translater miss the breathing body. IMHO.
Why am "I" so sure? read the example about the breathing.....

Breathing body and Qi flow body can be group as one in general if not get to very detail... Thus, the translater mis atleast one.

why am I so sure not to use Internal body energy? because Chen family is famous with its rolling silk Jing. That jing body. and certainly, the Breathing body and qi flow body have to go with it hand by hand. otherwise it will not work. with the example about the breathing.... "I" am even more sure.

But then there are to much details to write..... dont get me wrong as critics the translator or the author of the article. he did a great job. and I can learn alots from him. Just an exercise and having some fun.

Someone can check with Chen Xiao Wang to see if I am full of it. hahaha. "I" can be miss leading. :D

Well, now you can "listern" to your SLT for its "tango" and see the "Diaz".:cool:

PaulH

08-08-2003, 04:34 AM

Aha! I beat you to it on the breathing body! Still what all these mean?

Regards,

Phenix

08-08-2003, 04:40 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
Aha! I beat you to it on the breathing body! Still what all these mean?

Regards,

Ok you can beat me. No problem.

What is it means?
why is people taking x ray or infared pictures?
Why there needs a circuit diagram of mechanical blue print.

Who are you going to call?
Well, Called Chen Xiao-Wang! :D

Joy, "I" want to get out of this body to get into that body. :D

where is YY and Joy and KJ and John and......

PaulH

08-08-2003, 04:47 AM

Okay, that 's origin point. Where are you going with this? The point of no return? Are you saying that it's an introduction to the 5 or 6 bodies - somethings like Siu Lim Tao 101? What is its design purpose? You can tell me clearly as you are a designer yourself.

Regards,

yuanfen

08-08-2003, 04:51 AM

Where? Busy breathing!!!

prana vayu.

CXW is really talking about nature though he is at the Chen gate.

AS has been mentioned before (including you) nature is nature-
some mother. You know the kubdalini also coils!!

Very difficult to break through mechanical paradigms.

PaulH

08-08-2003, 05:09 AM

You know, Joy, you could say a few more words...Okay, how do I get mind and body unified in this context. I like to use this special knowledge to beat Ernie at least in chi sau if not sparring.

Regards,

yuanfen

08-08-2003, 05:23 AM

Paul- begin by doing everything mindfully- including walking.

The problem is that most folks will blow this off as mumbo jumbo-
but it isnt.

Many are trying to learn wing chun and other arts without paying attention to the roots. The siu lim tau among other things when done right helps develop intent.

Even in the slt- when something moves- everything moves.

On the short run speed can beat you in chi sao- but the long run is quite different.
Lots of folks are faster and stronger than me.... but the chi sao or the actual situation is quite different. Work on the long run- the short run situation will also improve.
It did and does for me- honest injun. You are not go throw some Ogden Nash verse now are you? I will laugh ahead of time!!

PaulH

08-08-2003, 05:30 AM

Nah! Your preemptive strike caught me speechless. Slow and steady just like Kathy sez...Oh well, can't say that I'm not disappointed. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

Phenix

08-08-2003, 07:11 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
You know, Joy, you could say a few more words...Okay, how do I get mind and body unified in this context. I like to use this special knowledge to beat Ernie at least in chi sau if not sparring.

Regards,

ummm This is not Joy, how to get mind and body unified?

Place the physical body transparency on the most bottom.
lay the breathing body transparency on the top of it.
Then, lay the qi flow body transparency on top of that.
Then, lay the JIng body transparency on top of that
then, lay the mind body transparency on top of that
then, staple all transparency together in the dan dian location.

wala. you have just unified everything. and since the stapple is at the dandian location when one transparency moves all moves together. Hey, this is Yik Kam's patent of transparency organizing. :D

As for Ernie, what the heck. Dope him with cuban cigar. Get him drunk. Take his hat away and black mail him if he don't let you win you will kill his CAP or based ball hat. That will work. don't need body mind.... too long and to expensive. Dope him dope him. Or evey easier, get Gary Lam to beat him. then, you don't even have to waiste a single breath. :D

PaulH

08-08-2003, 07:52 AM

Brilliant, Hendrik! My fuzzy brain gears are clicking now, but I don't know if my Dan tien can hold on these transparencies. How do you define Jing body? I need your precision of the Rolex on this time hand, or else all will be for naught.

Ernie, on the other hand, must pay for all his fun and laughs at my clumsy as well as idiotic chisau with him. You're my chosen one to lead the way. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

Phenix

08-08-2003, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
How do you define Jing body?
Regards,

The street map of LA. how the trafic suppose to flow and transport.

PaulH

08-08-2003, 06:16 PM

Hendrik,

Here is my confusion. I don't know much about these bodies except through reading books dealing with internal body aspects. When I do fa jing, it is like a mind trigger thing to me. I don't think of Jing routes or Qi flow at all. So do I need to know about this Jing body or its routes at all in order to issue Jing? Does anybody need to know in details of these 5 bodies in order to have their mind and body unified for that matter?

Regards,

Phenix

08-08-2003, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

Here is my confusion. I don't know much about these bodies except through reading books dealing with internal body aspects. When I do fa jing, it is like a mind trigger thing to me. I don't think of Jing routes or Qi flow at all. So do I need to know about this Jing body or its routes at all in order to issue Jing? Does anybody need to know in details of these 5 bodies in order to have their mind and body unified for that matter?

Regards,

What is Fa Jing for you?
how do you Fa?
what is a mind triggle?
what is the different between a lik and a jing?
What type of jing? sustain? repel? penetrating? vibrating?.......
How powerfull can it be?
How far can it penetrate?.... more questions... :D

To make a magnect from iron what shoult one align?:D
I have the question you have the answer ----Radioshack

Go buy a Chen Ching's Chen TaiJi book and see why he has to draw all those sili :D diagrams.....

PaulH

08-08-2003, 06:40 PM

It is like what happens when you do the dragon pole punching; or like when you split the atom, then comes this release burst of energy in two direction. I guess it is to me more explosive and a little penetrating due to the propel of the initial force explosion. Mind you, I'm very new at this so I'm at a loss of words to relate this precisely.

Regards,

Phenix

08-08-2003, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
It is like what happens when you do the dragon pole punching; or like when you split the atom, then comes this release burst of energy in two direction. I guess it is to me more explosive and a little penetrating due to the propel of the initial force explosion. Mind you, I'm very new at this so I'm at a loss of words to relate this precisely.

Regards,

Thus, "i" have heard,
Fajing is Yee is there Jing is there.
as it said
Bring back and issuing is at will.

As how one align all the bodies at the instance of Yee changes.
that is the art and kung fu.

more explosion mean uncontrol force. seems that is muscular localize . Two or multi- directions means less align with physical body structure and Yee..... ...pointing to be Lik not Jing......
means the Legs and waist handling crapping.... means in Chi Sau Ernie can force you with his body muscle and speed but you can't sustain.

just some guess can be dead wrong and don't know what I am talking about. "I" might change my job to fortune telling if these guesses goes on and on and on.... don't take it serious. :D

PaulH

08-08-2003, 06:52 PM

Okay, maybe you can show me the fine differences between the two later. All I know that it is very fun watching people got shocked when you apply this to their bridges. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

Ernie

08-08-2003, 06:58 PM

explosiveness comes from the mind when it is free
power comes from the ground when the body is relaxed .
when mind and body are unified and focused there is intent .
to have and release this power you must have control of your balance position and point .
only when one gets emotional , and ''want's '' it too much do things get sloppy .

just thought i would screw around with you guys a bit hahahaha

p.s. i havent really been following all you have been talking about you know once you get into jing and fing and bing and all that other stuff i tune out :)
but it seems like your having fun:D

KingMonkey

08-08-2003, 07:13 PM

You missed out ping.

Ernie

08-08-2003, 07:20 PM

hendik
something else just popped into my mind '' and it was very lonly in there:) ''
for all the fa and jing and walking on water stuff:) to work you need to have a clear mind .
but once pain is inflicted or the nervous system is shocked some how all that stuff goes out the window or needs time to reset . sonce the mind ,body spirit whatever you want to call it has to deal with this new set of signals that are comiing in . concentration levels drop and he is just a regular guy screaming and cussing after he stubbed his toe on the end table .

when you shell shock some one you create this enviroment and thus a door opens .
gary told me a story once about the time he played with the chinese tai chi champ and for all gary tried he couldn't hurt the guy he was like water and just absorbed and rolled with every punch , so gary being the sneaky person he is kicked the guy in the thigh , the tai chi guy tensed up from the pain and gary socked him in the face and down he went later the guy complained that gary shouldn't of kicked him .
in the end no matter how much of all these body mind spirit things we get down we are still just flesh and blood and human . and a stubbed toe still hurts like hell:)

Ernie

08-08-2003, 07:22 PM

You missed out ping.

and bada bing bada boom:)

PaulH

08-08-2003, 07:43 PM

Ernie,

That's it. You're going down, bro! Thanks for the tips! Ha! Ha!

Phenix

08-08-2003, 07:43 PM

Ernie.

You are right. human is flesh and blood and ego also. otherwise don't know what is hurting. :D

Next time while I do push hand with a taiji guy . I will kick him snikily to make him pain.
but what if he bounce me off root with the first touch? then can I complain it is not fair that he uses reel silk Jing? :D

Ernie

08-08-2003, 07:50 PM

hendrik
it's not shocking if he see's it coming
'' the hand you don't see will hurt you ''
no silk jing when you don't see the knee in the nuts followed by the head butt and elbow to the temple all in a split second the body will over load it's a natural reation .

next time your tai chi teacher is doing push hands toss him a hot bowl of soup and while he's dealing with that sock him in the face :D

Phenix

08-08-2003, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by Ernie

'' the hand you don't see will hurt you ''

next time your tai chi teacher is doing push hands toss him a hot bowl of soup and while he's dealing with that sock him in the face :D

Ernie,

The Diaz, one very close to will break you heart. :D

Pual,

dope Ernie with booze. :D
Don't have to train, it is not about art but about nasty. :D

Ernie

08-08-2003, 08:11 PM

dope Ernie with booze.
hey i rarely drink
so good luck on that one :) better to stuff me on good food:D

Don't have to train, it is not about art but about nasty

now you got it

anything and everything can and will be countered , there is no perfect no immovable
just another person no different then yourself , perhaps it will be his or perhaps it will be yours
the only thing to be certain of is uncertanty
i think that was on a fortune cookie ;)
off to work gentlemen have a great day and may you unlook all the secrets of what ever secret your trying to unlock......

p.s. try picking the lock and if that doesn't work bolt cutters are handy

PaulH

08-08-2003, 08:41 PM

Hendrik,

All is quiet on the nasty front for now. Earlier you mention that I can't sustain Ernie's speed and body muscles. One time I rolled hands with Gary and he said basically the same thing, i.e., I am empty and can't sustain his power. How do I sustain his power from the stuffs that we just discuss so far?

Regards,

reneritchie

08-08-2003, 09:38 PM

What about the 'common sense' body? It seems to me that during times of trouble, generations of passed down knowledge could realize certain common sense realities for their needs. You know, things like straight arms doing shake as much during stress situations as bent arms. Planting the legs in a pyramid and turning about the waist holds up better than fancy footwork. Remembering 9 things to do during an instant of combat is impossible while 3 just might be possible, etc. etc.

I think TCM, rainbows, jing patterns, etc. are interesting for scholars to studdy and lifetime addicts to play with (like books on a shelf or ships in a bottle) but for the average idiot like myself, its just a complication.

Common sense might not tweek the nose, fill the ego, or sell the video/certification scheme as well as secrets and complexities, but it has its own certain satisfaction and simple beauty.

PaulH

08-08-2003, 09:56 PM

Rene,

Common sense is what we have always. I love to fool with Hendrik and others for what they said often cause me to reflect on the nature of knowing and learning. You are being too far modest. I find what you said often has ironclad logic behind them that is very systematic and thorough.

"You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation. —Plato"

Regards,

yylee

08-08-2003, 10:42 PM

what's common sense?

the sky is round and the earth is square?

every thing, sun, moon, stars go around the earth?

or the earth spins around the sun?

or Bong Sau is passive? avoid at all costs?

a good stance should make one glue to the ground (so Gary can kick it anytime :D)?

PaulH

08-08-2003, 10:50 PM

Can I amen to that? I threw all my common sense out of my mind when he kicked playfully against my very stable stance. It's a frightful thing to fall victim to his kicks! Ha! Ha!

Regards,

reneritchie

08-08-2003, 10:50 PM

what's common sense?

Not very common.

See, it doesn't matter if the earth is round or the planets circle the stars, because I'm only walking down the street, and as long as the sun comes up in the morning and sets at night, I can get a few hours training in.

And Bong Sao is just Bong Sao, like any Sao. If I hit someone in the ribs with it, and they smash into the ground, you can call it as passive as you like.

yylee

08-08-2003, 11:34 PM

Paul, so is the mind abide by the stable stance? or by watching the kick comes? :)

Rene, how come some masters can Bong and throw people across the room, but many students can't? What's the trick? Is the master's Bong the same as the student's Bong?

reneritchie

08-08-2003, 11:49 PM

David, with Hendrik on this thread, I feel I must answer 'yes, as the seed is the same as the beautiful flower', but the moron in me just figures the difference lies in experience - knowing when and where, not just how.

PaulH

08-08-2003, 11:59 PM

It can't be in the stance or watching the kick coming. I would put my mind into attacking him regardless of what he will do to me. The problem is when pain comes to your senses, the mind quivers rather violently. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

yylee

08-09-2003, 12:31 AM

Originally posted by reneritchie
David, with Hendrik on this thread, I feel I must answer 'yes, as the seed is the same as the beautiful flower', but the moron in me just figures the difference lies in experience - knowing when and where, not just how.

with Hendrik on this thread, he would probably say the student's 3 Ying meridians aren't flowing according to the breathing, the proper timing and the intent direction; the joints aren't threading enough..... so the Shen does not come out ;)

Paul, from the looks of Gary's pictures, he seems to have a good control on the student's upper body structure before he throws his kicks.....

PaulH

08-09-2003, 12:37 AM

Sometimes he just kicks relying on superior timing, or he happily trades kicks with you if he feels your kick will do little damages while his would finish you. All of these can be done without prior body control.

Regards,

Ernie

08-09-2003, 01:30 AM

yylee

common sense [ be as simple as you need to be and as complicated as you have to be ]

as for gary's and or kicks in general ,
if you have great attributes [ timing ,distance ,speed , power , and adaptability] you canhit any one [ of lesser attributes ] with any tool at any given time .
there is no undefeatable technique or position just people and oppertunuties and luck.

as for bong sure you can send a person across the room with hell even i can hold people as they try and hang on and move it with all there force but so what , that accomplishes nothing , i should just hit them and stop screwing around .

reneAnd Bong Sao is just Bong Sao, like any Sao. If I hit someone in the ribs with it, and they smash into the ground, you can call it as passive as you like.

if a bong is a transitional motion to freeze it and strike with it , would change it's character would it not to a elbow strike or lan perhaps ?:D

or Bong Sau is passive? avoid at all costs
for the record , bong has it's place and time as all things but of the three hands tan concept ,fook concept and bong concept it is the most passive in respect to how often it comes up and how it is supposed to be used .

but i'm all for droppin elbows on people , i just consider that a bong:cool:

paul ,

give it time and you will be wipeing the floor with me and they day you do i will be more excited and happy then you :D

yylee

08-09-2003, 01:31 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
Sometimes he just kicks relying on superior timing, or he happily trades kicks with you if he feels your kick will do little damages while his would finish you. All of these can be done without prior body control.

Regards,

then u shall ask Hendrik about how to use the leg's 3 Ying meridians.... :)

PaulH

08-09-2003, 01:44 AM

YYlee,

Can you give me a sneak preview of the 3 Ying kick?

Ernie,

You know I love to play with ya!

Regards,

yylee

08-09-2003, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
if a bong is a transitional motion to freeze it and strike with it , would change it's character would it not to a elbow strike or lan perhaps ?:D

or Bong Sau is passive? avoid at all costs
for the record , bong has it's place and time as all things but of the three hands tan concept ,fook concept and bong concept it is the most passive in respect to how often it comes up and how it is supposed to be used .

but i'm all for droppin elbows on people , i just consider that a bong:cool:

for the record, I think all these times people are talking about two different aspects of the Bong, the technique aspect and the energy aspect. My common sense tells me you are more on the technique aspect, which is fine and admirable. For me, I am more interested in the energy aspect of it. Say how to blend the bong energy into the punch. Of course we don't post a good looking Bong Sau just for the camera when sparring. As for hanging on the Bong against someone, that depends on the other person's attributes too (can he really push/press?). So really no big deal, one can use lots of muscle to do such an immovable trick also.

Ernie

08-09-2003, 02:02 AM

yylee
i hear you
i'm just not big on freezing any motion or crystalizing a position , things get sketchy when that happens . or worse when people [try ]and make something work just because it's a wing chun hand and they have to prove it

to me it's all motion if it's 1/3 bong and 2/3 punch great , something hawkins told me a few years ago , and even though i usualy don't quote people on this case i'll make a exception
he said ' i won't beat you with tan bong or fook , but with what lies inbetween the actions ''

it took me along time to figure that out but now i see

yylee

08-09-2003, 02:09 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
YYlee,

Can you give me a sneak preview of the 3 Ying kick?

ha, ha, can't say I know Hendrik's kicking methods....

if memory serves, I think the 3 Yings on the legs are activated when breathing in, say from K1 and up via the in-side of the legs. The 3 leg Yangs get activated while breathing out, that go from body and down via the out-side of legs.

anyway, got to go swimming with my kids....

Phenix

08-09-2003, 02:51 AM

Originally posted by yylee

ha, ha, can't say I know Hendrik's kicking methods....

anyway, got to go swimming with my kids....

shhh.

My Kyokushin and Mua Thai friends don't know I do WCK type of hands.
My WCK friends don't know I do Muay Thai type of kicks.
My Yik Kam doesn't know I did Emei 12 Zhuang.
And 12 Zhuang friends doesn't know I do White CRane.
And White Crane friends doesn't know I do SLT.
And WCK friends don't know I do Muay Thai...... confuse, and since I don't know who the heck am I. I have no self. :D

I don't know what to call a Kyokushi ax kick with emei 12 Zhuang tiger step engine.... :D

Hey Rene, I am going to create Wing Babe with Diaz. Wing Chun + BJJ. :D

See, life get so complicated now..... better keep quit. shhhh

PaulH

08-09-2003, 03:31 AM

Hendrik,

Try this when life gets too complicated for you.

"As Time Goes By"
music and words by Herman Hupfeld
Hear Dooley Wilson sing "As Time Goes By" (a .WAV file).

You must remember this
A kiss is just a kiss, a sigh is just a sigh.
The fundamental things apply
As time goes by.

And when two lovers woo
They still say, "I love you."
On that you can rely
No matter what the future brings
As time goes by.

Moonlight and love songs
Never out of date.
Hearts full of passion
Jealousy and hate.
Woman needs man
And man must have his mate
That no one can deny.

It's still the same old story
A fight for love and glory
A case of do or die.
The world will always welcome lovers
As time goes by.

Oh yes, the world will always welcome lovers
As time goes by.

Okay , what were you saying about the tiger ax kicks? Ha! Ha!

Regards,

Phenix

08-09-2003, 03:48 AM

Don't know much about history
Don't know much biology
Don't know much about a science book
Don't know much about the French I took

But I do know how to BS you
And I know that if you BS me too
What a wonderful world this would be

Don't know much about WCK
Don't know much trinity
Don't know much about carpola
Don't know what a TaiJI rule is for.

But I do know that one and one is two,
And if this punch could be for you,
What a wonderful world this would be.

Now i don't claim to be an "A" student,
But I'm trying to be.
For maybe by being an "A" student baby
I can win your love for me. Sifu........

Don't know much about .....

:D

reneritchie

08-09-2003, 03:50 AM

if a bong is a transitional motion

All movements (sao) are initial, transitional, and terminal, otherwise they aren't economical and should be replaced with something better. IME, bong sao is very economical all three ways and the only thing that can freeze it is forcing it to be only one way.

But my family has been intercepting, changing, and finishing with Bong Sao for generations. YMMV

Ernie

08-09-2003, 06:45 AM

hendrik , paul
this whole dedicating songs to each other thing
it's got me a lttle un easy about us all getting together for dinner ,
if you two start touchy feely and start playing with each others chan/jing/fa/ meridians what ever
be warned i'm turning over tables ,swinging chairs and stabbbing with silverware :D :D :D :D

PaulH

08-09-2003, 07:26 AM

My sincere apology for the oversight, this is for you, bro! Dinner still on?

We Don't Need Another Hero

Out of the ruins
Out from the wreckage
Can't make the same mistake this time
We are the children
The last generation
We are the ones they left behind
And I wonder when we are ever gonna change
Living under the fear, till nothing else remains

We don't need another hero
We don't need to know the way home
All we want is life beyond
Wingchundome

Looking for something
We can rely on
There's gotta be something better out there
Love and compassion
Their day is coming
All else are castles built in the air
And I wonder when we are ever gonna change
Living under the fear till nothing else remains

All the children say
We don't need another hero
We don't need to know the way home
All we want is life beyond
Wingchundome

So what do we do with our lifes
We leave only a mark
Will our story shine like a light
Or end in the dark
Give it all or nothing

We don't need another hero
We don't need to know the way home
All we want is life beyond
Wingchundome