bong sau

[TjD]

It seems a few of the families out there have differing ideas on bong sau (at least at the visual level), so:

1. What is the "nature" of your bong sau?
2. What is your bong sau used for?
3. What does your bong sau look like?
4. How do you train your bong sau?

[Ernie]

hmmm.
o.k. first let me state i hate bong sau , since it is a passive action

1. What is the "nature" of your bong sau?
not sure what you mean by nature please give a example

2. What is your bong sau used for?
to bend or guide [ creates a new angle ], not to keep or apply force .it's an action on the way to another action never a static position

3. What does your bong sau look like?
if used correctly you shouldn't even see it , and it is adaptible so it's apperience my vary , is my opponent 6 feet tall or 4 feet tall

4. How do you train your bong sau?
i try not to since it is a passive action whick means if i have to bong i either got caught off gaurd , or i did something wrong

that's why i don't get the whole i can support 5oo pounds on my bong , yea so ? this accomplishes nothing but freezing you in a bad position .

[KingMonkey]

i try not to since it is a passive action whick means if i have to bong i either got caught off gaurd , or i did something wrong
For example here is a scenario in which I have to use bong:-

I train with a guy quite a bit bigger than me and we take turns throwing non-WC attacks.
1) I see him twitch with his right arm
2) I move straight forward with my hands in front of me
3) He tries to straight cross me in the face
4) My left arm which I am attempting to wedge with and still deliver a punch feels too much pressure.

I have to either small side step right and change my left arm wedge into a fook, changing my angle slightly

OR

Bong with my left and move to my left, his outside, or maybe behind.


I'm not clear why you would consider using the bong as always the result of a mistake. Maybe you're much faster than me and the failure you're referring to is one of visual perception and reaction rather than WC itself. I'd certainly agree the bong in most cases should be considered as a frustrated attack but that's not quite the same as saying it indicates that I did something wrong.

Can you explain a bit more about where you're coming from here.

[[Censored]]

I agree that bong sao is a potentially dangerous recovery technique and should be avoided where possible. I do not agree that it should be used to slip hands. My ideal bong sao is a disruptive counterattack towards the opponent's core.

[Ernie]

king m.

sure i'll explain but , yep i'm fast and sensitive so i don't ever really need to wedge , unless i'm purposely training something in chi sau.

if you don't mind i'll break down your example in my eyes but i'm in no way trying to be disrespectful...

[[[ 1) I see him twitch with his right arm
2) I move straight forward with my hands in front of me
----- if he try's to set up i intercept him , if he twiches 1. i let him get to close and in a position the he could set up a attack.
2. i never move striaght forward into a attack i take slight angles , i never meet force on force or go nose to nose and trade blows , i have no desire to find out how strong that person is nor do i have any desire to see how much of that force my structure can take , footwork elieviates all these problems .

3) He tries to straight cross me in the face
---- fine i either split the limb sectors inside and outside with a counter hit and control factor, while i slip to the outside . either way i should have shell shocked him with my first action if i didn't i should already be fireing my second action and in a new position '' again not nose to nose ''

4) My left arm which I am attempting to wedge with and still deliver a punch feels too much pressure.

---- i don't wedge so i can't comment on this feeling but if your wedgeing your being passive , if your being passive he can hit you , or your losing oppertunities and time

think of it this way everytime you latch on to some force and stick to it with your structure you are in turn trapping yourself . and everytime you commit a action that is not gaining you position ,or space or time , meaning you are following his action you are one step behind .
i want him reacting to me i don't want to be reacting to him .
so if something gets in my way i simply let it go . i don't try to capture and manipulate it .

i hope that i didn't confuse you more
:cool:

[KingMonkey]

Thx Ernie, you've given me some stuff to think about....
err without wishing to appear slow could you elaborate on
"split the limb sectors inside and outside with a counter hit and control factor" :-)

[Ernie]

king m.
no problem
there are 5 sectors you can work off when it comes to limbs not introducing high's and lows

-both hands on the out side of the incoming shot , [ both hands on top ]
-one hand on the outside one hand on the inside of the limb [ spliting the sectors ] for example the striaght right comes in your head slips to the outside of the right punch , you right hand fires at the same time down center right into his grill.
your rear hand [wu sau] moniters the out side of his right cross incase it changes into a elbow shot or what ever.
you need foot work and timing and feel to pull this off , you move in but at a slight angle you feel the angle from the wu sau that is monitering his attack hand . if you timing is good after you crack him you can drive his right hand your monitiering right back acoss his face slightly up so he can't bring his elbow down or reface you and just have a party on the exposed side of the body .

-- both hands inside - you have to be quck here your facing all his weapons .
-- and the other 2 secors are the same thing but on the other limb .

does that help

[PaulH]

Good posts, guys. Let come back to the origin of the Bong species in the Kuen Kuits.

In Bon Sau the forearm inclines, the wrist is on the center line, and the fingers droop

The three terrors of WC are Tan Sau, Bong Sau, and Fok Sau

Bong Sau must not remain.

Sticking to opponent while shifting hand position shows good control of situation. Being stuck to by opponent while attempting to shift your own hand position cannot produce the intended result.

Regards,

[russellsherry]

hi guys, i aggee with earnie,, don"t use bong sau , all the timme jut sau defeats , it and you could get trapped, use it when the time is right i also, like the jamming bong sau when you can use it peace russell sherry

[yuanfen]

o.k. first let me state i hate bong sau , since it is a passive action

( not quite- dynamic context makes a big difference))

In Bon Sau the forearm inclines, the wrist is on the center line, and the fingers droop

((droop? aint necessarily so))

I agree that bong sao is a potentially dangerous recovery technique and should be avoided where possible.

((not any more dangerous than fok or tan- depends on context)

[KingMonkey]

Ahh I see.
The terminology threw me for a sec.
Yeah nice to do that I also like it with the right doing a neck strike/cinch and takedown. :-)

[S.Teebas]

the striaght right comes in your head slips to the outside of the right punch , you right hand fires at the same time down center right into his grill.

I’ve found slipping exposes you to attacks that makes it difficult to recover from if struck. I agree that this is a pretty devastating move, and against a lot of people it does work. However when you try this on someone who knows how to expose it’s weakness…it can be devastating in a way that can finish the fight rather quickly.

[Ernie]

that's why you have to have good footwork timing and speed ,plus the the monitering hand pressures center and shuts down his counter action , but there is always a way to beat something :) still much more effecient the trying to use a bong sau

[PaulH]

Good that you also notice, Joy. It did bother me a bit on the fingers drooping. Mine are mostly pointing to his center. Since I don't like tampering the sacred kuen kuit to suit my subversive agenda, I just let it speak as it is without comments. Also it is correct when you do the low bong, and drooping could mean many things like relaxation or natural. So all well that ends well. Let not the bong lingers too long in your heart and mind. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

[fa_jing]

Generally I find the low bon sao to have more uses and be more useful than the high bon sao.

JMO

[old jong]

Bong sau is as essential to Wing Chun as tan or fook.
BTW, you don't decide to "try" a technique in Wing Chun. It should happen depending on too many variables to enumerate here.

[yuanfen]

Fajing-

you may be underestimating the full repertoire of bong sao.

[saulauchung]

Lets not forget that the bong sau is one of 'Eight Hands of Wing Chun'.

There is a reason for that to be and would be unwise of practitioners to discard / neglect it. The kuen kuit and things of like were thought up from very competent WC masters. There's a reason for it to be there. Do you neglect a certain mathematical theory or equation simply because you already know another that could solve a particular problem? If you do, then you're simply aiming to pass the exam and not excel in the subject.

It is human nature to keep to things that we're good at and dislike those that we are unfamiliar. How many footballers/sportsmen that are competent all-rounders?

[old jong]

Originally posted by saulauchung


If you do, then you're simply aiming to pass the exam and not excel in the subject.


Well said!..:cool:

[Ernie]

wow look at all the bong sau junkies ,
i thought the origin of this post was to describe you lines bong sau , and the uses of bong sau for all the bong sau junkies , that are out there killing the world with this passive action , i don't see any examples , were the bong is superior to any other action that i don't may actually hurt some one ......

to each there own but to me it sounds like a bunch of old teacher's that have vested all this time in this action and taught all these people this action and have to make it work and prove the time they spent ........

i guess if your really slow and have no foot work sensitivity or timing you might find yourself useing the bong sauin stead of actually hitting some one . but come on out side of chi sau , it should rarely come up . but then if chi sau is all you ever do then i can see your point .:D

[yuanfen]

Sorry Ernie- you just dont get it and sarcasm doesnt help you.
One doesnt have to use wing chun- many ways to skin a cat.
Bong sao has many uses in wing chun and only a dead bong sao is always "passive".

[Ernie]

just how i see things that's the beauty of oppinions , prove me wrong ,
and sacasim has many faces and sometimes is hidden in peoples remarks

put your bong sau were your mouth is and give a clear discription were you find that action is better then a non passive action , i don't sugar coat things with proverbs and dead guy quotes or sayings on a rock . give personal experiences that you have had against a skilled fighter were your bong sau was a better choice ..... until then i guess i just won't get it
and by the way i didn't name any names so if you felt insulted that's on you .

just looking for realism and fact ....

[yuanfen]

Ernie says-

until then i guess i just won't get it
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((That's fine with me Ernie.)))

[Ernie]

as usual when it's time to speak personal experience silence falls

[yylee]

>>1. What is the "nature" of your bong sau?

A circular motion. Bong is not the frozen Bong position, but the whole rolling movement from Tan to that Bong position.


>>2. What is your bong sau used for?

Jam, deflect, uproot, can also turn into a palm hit, a punch, or reach for the back of the neck once the attacking arm is cleared. Due to the circular and moving nature of the Bong, incoming force is not met head on. We don't face a punch with a static Bong position, always meet with some rolling.


>>3. What does your bong sau look like?

My Bong sau looks differently every other week, still working on it :D But the circular idea is always there.


>>4. How do you train your bong sau?

SNT, Chi Sau. Use no forearm muscle.... could take years.


Bong Sau is a wonderful Jaan Dai Lik training. Every where from Tan to Bong position (and from Bong pos. to Tan) shall have Jaan Dai Lik.

[Miles Teg]

Good post YYlee

Ernie
Completely disagree with you. Bong is very offensive. There are so many ways it can be used.

[yuanfen]

Good post YYlee. Right Miles. Not only can be used agressively
in addition to defensively but has other functional applications
including locking, throwing and breaking. Plus twohanded combinations with bong.

Ernie -lots of experiences with the bong. Each time its unique to the situation at hand.

[old jong]

If you hate Wing Chun as much as you seem to do,why don't you "try" something else.
You would fit right in the JKD mindset (IMO)

[Ernie]

i don't hate wing chun i just don't need to worship it or make it sound invincible. no smoke screens or bill of goods here

as for bong being agressive , i could beat you with a pillow and make it aggersive but there would be a better tool for the job
again the question is dodged .

in your personal experience were has the bong been a better tool , then a lan ,or punch, or elbow strike , the bong is transitional not a primairy strike , it's like trying to make a parry into a pimairy weapon not effecient sure you could do it but not smart .

that's my point , so if your running around trying to use the bong sau as a lead tool well then you mustr not be testing it against any one with any real skill.

infact aggressive bong sau is kind of silly now that i think about it , unless you are making space for a real weapon again that would mean you were behind a persons timing and trying to recover or change a position , so you made a mistake .

still no personal experiences to share eh,
just a lot of talk with no supportive facts , i'm not surprised

[KingMonkey]

I dont think he hates it, rather he is interested in cutting the wheat from the chaff in the context of realistic application and what he feels works best.
This, IMHO is what WC should be about.

[old jong]

Ernie.
You seem to project your own flaws in everybody else.
Bong sau is one of the three main motions of the system and it has it's many uses. If you feel like throwing it overboard,fell free to do so.

BTW, who talked about using bong sau as a lead tool....You did ! ....Nobody else.

[yuanfen]

There are many ways to fight....besides wing chun. But if one is going to use wing chun- one has to learn it. Modifying it without learning it is no improvement.

And Ernie's and several other comments on the bong seems to be speaking from mma and jkd perspectives already. I fyou dont have the full repertoire of bong- one needs to go back to the drawing board and learn it.
Ernie's straw man:
so if your running around trying to use the bong sau as a lead tool well ..

Who advocated using bong asa lead tool? You simply dont understand the bong. It is a difficult motion to learn well.

Ernie- once again- you dont have a monopoly on "experience".
Yes- I have used bong motions against resisting opponents.
No chest beating needed, thank you.

Paul H-- Bong fingers dont point into the line...take a good look at a good picture of Ip man's bong.

[Ernie]

you guys are funny if it dosen't fit you personal scope then it must be mma or jkd that's classic :)

bong sau being a lead tool , hmmm if you read what i said instead of getting all huffy , i said originaly i hate bong sau because it is a transitional or recovery tool , that means i'm behind a persons timing and that is not a good place to be .

so i try to avoid being in a bad place , i guess that's not wing chun right ?

there is always a better way , research and test , apply pressure and test , don't get lazy and just play with wing chun people or you develop a false sense of what a tool can do.

the bong is a week position and can be used against you ,your low line is open , or it can be used as a handle to manipulate you structure if you have to much intent on it .

Ernie- once again- you dont have a monopoly on "experience".
still waiting for you to add anything in this catagory . dude get over yourself if you haven't or can nolongert fight just be honest stop hidding behind ''chest beating '' it doesn't mean your not a good teacher it just means you are human and haven't got all the answers and lack experience in some area's .
beware the teacher that has a answer for everything he is lieing . there is no way one person has all the answers .

as for my weakness got tons of them and i embrace them and grow from them , but it would seem you do not well god bless you superman.........

old jong.
i just gave a alternitive to the use of bong in a situation and on came the bong junkies .
should we not look for better more effecient ways to solve a problem.

[PaulH]

Joy,

Do you have a picture of Yip for me to view the bong? With regard to the Bong controversy, Ernie is thinking more of not giving up the 1st gate (tan, punch, chop, etc.). If the tan is the 1st action then Bong would be the 2nd action in theory. Opting for more proactive action rather than the seemingly "passive" or low key 2nd action of the bong, It makes more sense then to seek to strike the opponent from your nearest and closest weapons and Bong is just a "gate" too far to reach the target.

Regards,

[old jong]

Ernie.
Again, you should not decide when to use a motion or worse not to use it. In a real fight ,you will have only a split second to deal with and attack or a defense,change a line or whatever. You need the complete arsenal to have a chance of succes.
Wing Chun is not a "technique vs technique" thing and there is no ultimate or final use of any of its motions.

[Ernie]

old jong
your right , you should mold to the situation not try and make it into somehting .
but this was a discussion on one shape and it's use . and of couse it will at some be needed in a exchange since we are not perfect and have to recover a line or position , but in the example i was commenting on that started this hole thing , it was being used forcefully in a forward wedge and i just offed a different answer for the problem ,
and things got silly from there ,
but between me in you i like when people get all silly:)

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ernie
between me in you i like when people get all silly:)

Noooo!...You don't tell me!...:D
But seriously,you will never find a high level Wing Chun'er who will use anything forcefully. A beginner could do this because he still thinks "this technique vs this attack" but good and intelligent training will take him beyong this stage at times. (unless he is a complete idiot!) ;) ....(or his teacher is!) ...or...;) )

[Ernie]

So go work on your bong sao!
why when i have better options :o
old jong
But seriously,you will never find a high level Wing Chun'er who will use anything forcefully
which is why you don't want to become to crispy working only of high level wing chun people , need to play with the sloppy folks this is more true to how things happen .

i know were your coming from once you have feel the technique is just a after thought a bi product of the confrontation , at this point is were position and timing and skill are more prominent .
this is exactly way i don't like bong sau and '' immovable bong sau'' it teaches people to become fixed in a shape , instead of the flow .
people try and capture the moment with a bong and wedge or attack center and try and manipulate the other persons structure . bong can do it but it's not a smart tool for these applications , how many shoulder injuries have you seen due to this , even guys with great bong saus and smooth springy intent get a little off angle or to much wieght at the wrong place and they get hurt .

[old jong]

Bong sau is not "immovable"....It's a motion!...;)
It is also a lot...I mean a lot more difficult not to get hit by a high level Wing Chun man than by a sloppy folk (Unless you are sloppy yourself!...;) )

[old jong]

Got to go Ernie!...We'll talk again later. :cool:

[joy chaudhuri]

Ernie sez:
funny if it dosen't fit you personal scope
--------------------------------------------------------------
I wasnt peddling my personal scope. Wing chun does have principles of structure timing and usage.Joy
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul H:

I am techincally challenged when it comes to storing net things and scanning. But aelward(John Kang) who has been quiete ofr a while--- I think he or someone else posteda picture if Master Ip
and his bong--- taken several years before his final video just before his death. The fingers are pointing forward and down at an angle pat the center line. The bridge is at the line. The palm is facing forward.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ernie-sez
that means i'm behind a persons timing and that is not a good place to be .
------------------------------------
Got it wrong. One plays ones game and uses right timing. A good bong sao can cotrol.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ernie sez:
if you haven't or can nolongert fight just be honest --
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ha ha Ernie-you and your illusions!! False too!!
But you know what dude- I dont have to impress you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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[Ernie]

sloppy ,
sometimes but i try to keep things tidy :)

it alot more difficult to not get hit by a high level anything , especialy if your not familier with the lines of attack , at least with a wing chun person you have a idea how he or she is coming .

later jong i'm off to work myself .

[Ernie]

Ha ha Ernie-you and your illusions!! False too!! But you know what dude- I dont have to impress you

o.k. illusions delusions what ever
since when does sharing experiences mean you are trying to impress .
I wasnt peddling my personal scope. Wing chun does have principles of structure timing and usage.Joy
you know you keep saying , but neglect to express it . it's real easy to say you can fly . but when you jump off the buliding things change .

Got it wrong. One plays ones game and uses right timing. A good bong sao can cotrol.
no i know your nuts , being behind a persons timing means you are late '' chasing '' we don't chase hands and we don't chase timing . yes a bong can control fro a second on the way to something better , but that makes 2 actions or 3 , should we not eliminate actions if it at all possible .

[[Censored]]

as usual when it's time to speak personal experience silence falls

Here is just one example where I think bong sao is useful. Yes, it is artificial, but all static examples must be. From their fook sao position, the opponent attempts to drop your inside hands and punch your stomach...you kwan sao them off balance and your tan arm has an open line to their body.

[PaulH]

Thanks, Joy. Now I recalled seeing the picture before. And I do it too in the lop sau drill. The direction of the Bong fingers just point away to where your energy along the forearm flows to. It could be very soft mostly to detect "mindful' intention of the opponent's energy on the bridges.

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Paul H- true and more.

Joy

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by [Censored]
as usual when it's time to speak personal experience silence falls

Here is just one example where I think bong sao is useful. Yes, it is artificial, but all static examples must be. From their fook sao position, the opponent attempts to drop your inside hands and punch your stomach...you kwan sao them off balance and your tan arm has an open line to their body.
Ordinarily I don't like cookbook formulas, but what [Censored] has described here is very basic and important to my Chi Sao.

Regards,

[Phil Redmond]

I use bong sao in kwan sao lots when full contact fighting against strong round kicks. Especially when there's no where to go except laterally like when against the ropes. It's also good against a wide round, (not hook) punch. Bong/kwan has saved my grill many times. I'm not giving it up.

[PaulH]

Phil,

Don't let Ernie fool you. The guy uses Kwun Sau a lot to smother my chain attacks on him. He prefers not to use bong, but he uses bong often to save his skin when he needs to. His bong is actually very good, you rarely see his bong but the transitional move from the bong position.

Regards,

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Fajing-

you may be underestimating the full repertoire of bong sao.

Sort of. Actually I am not in possession of the knowledge of the full repertoire of Bong Sao, nor the expertise in applying the same. Perhaps I should have qualified my statement more explicity. Personally I find the low bong sao actually physically easier to perform. Also, as others have said, as part of kwan sao which is a great motion. To be honest, I have only used the high bon sao once during sparring, and I was suprised, amazed, and self-congratulatory. :) But the principle/Jing of twisting the arm from the shoulder to the wrist while extending, I have definitely used, if not the specific shape and postion of the classic high bon sao. So in that sense the training of the bon sao has helped me.

Looking at it theoretically, it seems to be a quite favorable motion to perform when someone is exerting pressure from the outside on an extended bridge, such as your punch to the head or your Tan Sao. You can dissipate the pressure economically and come around into a whipping punch, or else fire off a shot with the rear hand.

I think the caveats commonly brought up are valid - you are at the end of your joints' range-of-motion, so Bong sao should not "stay," allowing the opponent to take advantage. Also, beginners in Wing Chun seem to be over-reliant on this motion, playing with it like it's a new toy. I sure did.

[Ernie]

sssshhhh paul can't you tell when i'm playing devils advocate

:)
phil
no need to dump the kwan , or the bong it has it's place in recovering position and correcting a situation , but it's not a place you want to be in [ protecting your grill ] you would rather have him protecting his .

which brings me back full circle when you are bonging you are not attacking you are responding to a attack , your timing is behind the person , you are reacting not acting . thus not a favorable position , so you must get out of that position as quickly as posible , while you are bonging you mid line is exposed and yes you could drop a gan if it were a stright line shot but that is a chi sau game not a anything goes game were it could be a looping hook with and elevation change and anglular footwork that' setting up your gan from the bong so they can get back to your face [[ high low high ]] many arts have this . knee or close quarter shin kick to the low line or ribls as the bong is being formed . there's tons of bad things that can happen on the exposed line .

and of course there is a counter for everything so i won't drag that out . it's just a matter of being honest about vulnerable spots and applications , instead of pretending there bullet proof .

hey and to all you guys that were giving personal situations that was awsome , thanks

[S.Teebas]

Bong-sau is a circular tool. If the perimeter of bongs trajectory traces A) contact from the opponents strike and B) your target…then that’s one efficient motion in my eyes! One movement and you’re able to hit the opponent. WC is about concepts, not a literal translation, as you seem to conveying it as (devils advocate to get info??).

Chi-sau can teach you to generate force from any angle. Do some sparing with the correct structure, intent and focus and you will see that it’s actually quite useful and possible to pull off (not sure you practice the same structure that I’m practicing though, because what you said before about slipping is a big no-no if you’re planning on using this same WC structure IMHO).

And yes I have made this work against non-WC people in a sparing context. I cant say exactly what it was used against technique wise…because I’m not sure. All I do is match his angle, then redirect on my way to striking.

it teaches people to become fixed in a shape , instead of the flow .

Flow within the contex of the shapes. Restriction may, however, be pertinent to imagination on how to use WHAT and WHEN to use it. Look to the forms for some ideas, experimenting and experience in chi-sau can teach alot too if you're constantly analysing results to varying input. Shapes are used for using structure as part of your fighting engine. They arent the only effective way as you have mentioned... but it's one possible method. The WC method! ;)

[Ernie]

hey S.Teebas
cool post man ,
and i do know what yout talking about once you have feel [[ sensitivity ]] you can catch a persons center on any point of your body and send ''power '' in and destabilize there balance . shapes are no longer fixed at this point .

problem is people often get cauht up searching for that cohiesive point and miss oppertunities , or fall behind in the timing game .

i know what works i just like to ruffle peoples feathers and make them spit out personal experience instead of hide behind sayings like some moses reciting the ten commandments .

no one is perfect , we all make mistake but in those mistakes mine yours and others are the true gems that guide us and if we don't share they get lost , so as allways thanks for sharing

as for the slip , it's not a boxers slip were you drop elevation and roll the shoulders . think of chi sau position were you can step in with your tan to the face and your fook controls the bong arm kind of driving it into his center and twiting him at the same time that's closer to the slip and sector thing i was talking about .

[Phil Redmond]

Hey Ernie,
"....when you are bonging you are not attacking you are responding to a attack...."

Sometimes we attack with a bong / wu

"....your timing is behind the person...."

I hear you. You mean like when someone sucker punches? I guess in that instance you start out behind. ;)

[Ernie]

que pasa phil
if you don't mind let me ask you a question and in turn might show what i'm talking about
Sometimes we attack with a bong / wu

since niether bong or wu are primary striking weapons , what is it your attacking , or are you responding to a attack that was already launched ,
if that is the case then in respect to time you are behind the intial attack and are reacting to the attack , so in this situation you are behind , and need to recover time and turn the tables in your favor so the person is responding to you .

that's what i mean by time , it's always better to have him dealing with you then you dealing with him .

is that a little clearer :D

now from here we can talk about useing your foot work to move in and split the time of his initial attack and stealing your time back '' intecepting ''
which wing chun is very good at .
another way to look at it is you are intransition you arn't being active your on your way to being active so the idea of bong being a transitional motion would for the time it is being used make you to some degree passive .

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Ernie,
I mean like exploding into you opponent with a bong/wu/lop using a parallel leg front leg attack to his blind side restricting his weapons. You of course must be prepared to counter any attack he 'might' retaliate with but that's where your contact reflexes come into play.You have to catch him between "thought/mind" like...BANG.
Phil

[russellsherry]

hi guys, again i am sideing with earnie , wing chun is a sriking, art ,, i would never use bong sau , except with a footwork or pivort , or jamming movement, phil, with respect , if i worry to much,useing 4 or 5 movements before i hit, someone i would get, my head knocked off also as speaking from a disabled person , i need less movement not more use the technique at the right time, but don"t think it"s the be all to end all, and i also would never use , kwan sau to bloack kicks jamming the frount , leg as is chi gerk , teaches us to take care of that , peace russellsherry

[Phil Redmond]

Russell,
I appreciate your opinion but the bong/wu JAM I'm refering to IS 'one' move. I've used it as a bouncer over the years in clubs at close quarters and in other encounters many times. Trust me. It works for me. Maybe it's hard to imagine unless you see it used.
Phil

[Ernie]

phil
i get it your closing of a line on entry , and if and when he try's to change you zap him
in this your timing is ahead he is reactive , good place to be .
as long as you have good timing the tooling is interchangable ,basicly a door is open the exact way you chose to go through that door is up to you,


russell,
you like to fight and test your stuff , so i hear you loud and clear , certain realities come to light when the heat is applied , and if things are not tested in a open enviroment , well .......i guess anything is possible :D

thanks for chiming in gentlemen always good to hear from people with experince that are willing to share .

[Phil Redmond]

phil i get it your closing of a line on entry , and if and when he try's to change you zap him in this your timing is ahead he is reactive , good place to be. as long as you have good timing the tooling is interchangable ,basicly a door is open the exact way you chose to go through that door is up to you,
That's it Ernie. See, I knew you'd get it. Of course it depends on how the guy holds his guard. Some boxers guard is closed. Some Thai boxers have a wider guard. If the guard is wide/open it's hard to do this, at least for me. But if he has a tight boxer type guard it's easier to explode and restrict the lead arm. If you time it just right once you make contact you clock him. If he steps back you follow and smother him or even kick to close the gap. Remember this works when you are parallel leg/arm, (left to right or right to left). I have a different one for cross leg/arm, (right to right or left to left), situations. Sometimes I fake to see his reaction. Will he punch if he thinks I'm coming in? Will he just stand there sleeping? Will he step back or to the side? Will he "try" to kick as I close in on him?
I base my explosion/jam on that if I can. I don't want to blindly charge in you know....smile.

[Ernie]

my man phil got some tining and awareness ,
you go with your badself
:)

i know exactly what your talking about i use a similar idea but slightly different tooling , i like cause a little shock so what ever lead hand is offered or is starting to fire i pak it , but the trick is as i'k doing that i'm on my way to cutting off the rear hand befor it fires with my second hand , and finally the original hand i started with fires into his grill [ 3 actions on one beat as i move through him ] they usually just freez like i stuck them with a cattle prodd ,
the coll thing is it's universal , matched or unmatched leads works the same :D
i have smacked boxers from one side of the ring to the toher it just drives them nuts there not used to having the center pressured like that and hands immoblized .
i can send you a clip of gary doing this stuff he has all the routes broken down is training drills if you want ,
peace

[KingMonkey]

Ernie I would really love to see a clip of that.......

[Ernie]

hit me on the side and when i cut it down i'll put it on my server and you can down load it , did i ever send you the pak sau stuff, and i will be gone for over a week i will be whitwater rafting so if i don't die i'll hook you up

[russellsherry]

hi earnie, i hope you have a good time , on holiday if you are hearing , anything , about me olny belive , half of it. brother, oh on the lead hand , try jamming the frount hand with, wing chun fround hand jab. peace russell sherry and phill if it work"s for you that"s fine, but i don"t like being not able to use, my hand freely i like to hit the sucker,

[Phil Redmond]

phill if it work"s for you that"s fine, but i don"t like being not able to use, my hand freely i like to hit the sucker
Hi Russell, I don't see where I can't hit using the jam I described. I
the person will be hit before they know what hit them. I have to make a video for some to see. Maybe I can do it with someone wearing headgear.

[S.Teebas]

Id like to see that as well Phill. I cant visualise it :confused:

[Phil Redmond]

S.Teebas
I see that I can't email you an example so you'll have to wait until it's put up on the site.

Ernie
I'll be emailing you a video clip example.
¿Cómo estaba su viaje?

[fa_jing]

< SpanishPolice > Como estuvo (or) Como fue </endSpanishPolice>
:D

[Phil Redmond]

Eso fue slang compi. Pero gracias.

[yuanfen]

achha dhonyabad!

mvto!

[russellsherry]

hi guy"s sorry about the type over i have been trying, to be more careful. phil the way i would , counter a boxer"s jab, is a jabing movement, of my own but as our mate earnie say"s
go off his line, use the jab, jam his arm , with your own and follow, up as quickl"y as possiable. this is where you use wu sau , phil make his counter useless with it , phil as i said before what work"s for you is fine , and what work"s for me is ok too , peace russell sherry

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Russell,
I wasn't refering to countering a jab. I was talking about explosively 'charging' in and jamming then trapping/hitting. There is another thread on the jab. Also, don't worry about your typing. You're getting your point across very well.

yuanfen
Hindi?

[yuanfen]

Phil- first one- ok thank you- hindi
changing pronounciation could make it bengali-
my mother tongue. 2nd- is thank you in Muscogee (Creek)-(Oklahoma tribe)
my late wife's language. Its deceptive because it seems to use English letters but the sounds are different- more like maahdoh

[russellsherry]

hi guy"s phil sorry about , talking about the wrong, subjet. mis read it ok. as far, as charging at you and using that , i am going to disagrree with you again sorry about that but as a disabled person someone coming, at me fast makes me nervous i would counter this as our mate earnie , say"S get of his line maybe use tan da follow up with as many punches as possiable, try to turn him around, use his force against him, and try to get , him it the worst possiable postion, and take him down , remember if he is chargeing at you, he may have a blade, or needle, you can not discount, this sometimes, double bloack"S such as the one you discribe, are dangerous, but if it work"s for you its ok what work"S for me is fine to peace russellsherry