Rough with women

[Liokault]

talking to my teacher last week, he told me that hes worked out that over the 14 or so years I have been training with him I have cost him about 25 thousand pounds in lost income from female class members.

The reason he says this is that after a woman drops out of the class and he randomly runs in to them and chats the reason they always state for stopping training is that they thought that I would breack their arm/left them with to many bruises!!

I didnt think I was being rough.

I'm not doing anything differant to the women than the men.

I have only ever been party to breacking 1 arm and it was 75 precent his 25 percent my fault.



Hes stopped me from working with women now.....im the second one in the class that hes had to do that to.....for totaly differant reasons.

[truewrestler]

I'm guessing those women would get their ass beat by a guy in real life too then. What do they expect? Practice how you play... train how you intend to fight. If they can't handle a guy in class how do they expect it to go in real life?

...must add though that if this isn't in sparring then something isn't right. Just drilling you should not be hurting anyone.

[yenhoi]

That sucks.

Unfortunatly, women are not equal to men.

You should have been easier, compromised their kung-fu, and made your teacher some cash.

:eek:

[count]

What did the other guy do?:eek:

Seriously, your teacher needs to bring them along better. Work them up to the level where they know what to expect.

[Liokault]

I think there are 2 main problems...none of them being cash.


1/ we used to have this really good looking european girl who trained for 3 months while I was off training....then she went home.

Her first lesson back and I'm there....she never came back....and gave the reason above.(she really was VERY good looking).

2/ People come to tai chi for lots of differant reasons, more so than any other martial art I can think of....not all are interested in the martial side. My teacher feels that I should be able to recoignise that and adapt.

[LeeCasebolt]

"...must add though that if this isn't in sparring then something isn't right. Just drilling you should not be hurting anyone."

No offense, but horse****. Blocking leg kicks and holding pads in drills cost me at least as much pain and bruising as actual sparring. There've been several times I was at least briefly afraid of breaking something, and at least one time when my drill partner insists I **** near KO'd him

(Personally, I think he made that up to make me feel better - my power's not that good...)

This ain't golf - if martial arts doesn't hurt, someone's not doing it right.

That said, you shouldn't be *injuring* anyone during drilling, or sparring for that matter. Bumps and bruises happen; breaks and tears mean someone's being careless.

Lee Casebolt

[truewrestler]

Originally posted by LeeCasebolt
"...must add though that if this isn't in sparring then something isn't right. Just drilling you should not be hurting anyone."

No offense, but horse****. Blocking leg kicks and holding pads in drills cost me at least as much pain and bruising as actual sparring. There've been several times I was at least briefly afraid of breaking something, and at least one time when my drill partner insists I **** near KO'd him

(Personally, I think he made that up to make me feel better - my power's not that good...)

This ain't golf - if martial arts doesn't hurt, someone's not doing it right.

That said, you shouldn't be *injuring* anyone during drilling, or sparring for that matter. Bumps and bruises happen; breaks and tears mean someone's being careless.

Lee Casebolt Well, I guess we just found out why these girls were getting hurt.

[Liokault]

Its not sparring or drilling (drilling is such a negative term).

Its mostly fixed step pushing hands.

[Laughing Cow]

Liokault.

Why would they get bruises from fixed step Push hands?

[The Willow Sword]

Physics gentlemen,,physics needs to be taken in account when training women in martial arts. A woman is not going to do much good going head to head against a man of greater weight and strength.
You train a women to be more evasive and in most cases teaching them to run away, Also, you teach women dirty tactics. stuff that a man is not going have the opportunity to do(unless they are h0m0sexual and they are in a position to do these tactics).
You guys really need to get in touch with your local (non-profit organization dealing with sexual assault ans battered womens center) talk to these people, have them give you thier handbook or training manual. LEARN about the law with regards to women and sexual assault, and learn about how women are really attacked out in the real world. I see all these guys out there trying to teach women self defense.(it is quite comical and sad all at the same time). they havent a clue.
we have one womens martial arts school that i know of in austin.
it is called "sun dragon martial arts for women". dont know too much about them but once i checked out a flyer. they seemed to have a good classes for women.

you cant give these girls a fals sense of security,,most of the time you will run up against the "barking factor" a woman with alot of rage in her will spout off that if a man touched her she would break his nads up in to his throat. but that is not so easily done and when truly confronted with a violent situation. woman will go "deer in headlights".
proper understanding of womens mentality and issues is a MUST. so as i stated before, hook up with your local N.P.O.(non profit org.) and get some insights.
TWS.

[truewrestler]

you cant give these girls a fals sense of security,,most of the time you will run up against the "barking factor" a woman with alot of rage in her will spout off that if a man touched her she would break his nads up in to his throat. but that is not so easily done and when truly confronted with a violent situation. woman will go "deer in headlights". Let me think.... anti-rape techniques = grappling.... but of course no one wants to hear about that. "Deer in headlights"? Well, not if they train to fight through full contact sparring.... striking and grappling.

Train how you intend to fight!

[Jook Lum]

It sound`s as if you need to have more control when working with these women,they should not be leaving with bruises when practicing Tai chi.Especially the way most Tai Chi movement`s are performed.Instead of wondering if these women are tough enough? You should be questioning if you are skilled enough to work with someone who softer and more gentle(but in no way less powerful).Toughness is in the heart and mind not on the outside of the body.Women are different,not better or worse just different which means so is their training.

[ShifuBinks]

Well, without getting into the philosophy of this whole debate, I would like to tackle it from a logistical standpoint...to say that you have cost him money by scaring away female students raises a few questions in my mind:
For example, if you had become a Wuss Sensei would you have retained the female students but lost some male students? Could you have catered to the students i.e. being rough with some and gentler with others? Have your "rough" tactics helped to retain other students?
What I am getting at is lets say your classes intimidated 8 girls who would have paid X amount of dollars per month. However, these same tactics attracted 12 other people who pay X dollars per month...you have made your teacher 12X-8X = $4X

One more thing, most people that I have seen quit martial arts give some reason that sounds like BS...oh I was so scared I was going to get hurt, oh I didnt like being around all those sweaty guys, oh my teacher use to pat me on the @$$ too much...hey person who quit: How about "I was too freakin' lazy and I wanted to stay at home on saturday mornings watching Heathcliffe?
Ya see what Im gettin at?

[kj]

When training with a partner of any gender (versus "fighting" someone), it is appropriate to consider and scale to their current level of skill and physical abilities.

Our ability to dominate a partner (or assault them, as the case may be) is not the only measure of skill. Skill is also reflected in the ability to control. That is, to control one's partner, the engagement, and first and foremost, oneself.

There's a fine line between testing one's skill and working to improve it. We learn best when we understand the distinction. Finding the balance between training and contest also helps us to serve better as training partners.

It's highly unlikely that the women are the only one's offended by excessive roughness; rather they are far more likely, in general, to be honest about their concerns. If numerous people are pointing to you specifically, there likely is a legitimate issue appropriate of some self-reflection.

If your question is as sincere and open minded as it came across, it's a great beginning toward resolving the dilemma already. Best wishes in your continued training and growth.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Chang Style Novice]

I never hit a woman. Unless, y'know, that's what they're into.

More seriously, I think KJ makes an excellent point. As a senior student, you HAVE to take responsibility for the newer students having a good experience learning and not pushing their limits beyond what they're ready for. Women are generally less used to the idea that playing rough can be fun and valuable and rewarding in and of itself, and it will almost always be a longer time and tougher sell to get them to hardish or genuinely hard sparring. I mean, I LIKE getting bruised and sore from a class, even a taiji class. But not everyone is built the same.

[JusticeZero]

I honestly despair as far as working with women goes. In my experience, it takes 6 to 18 months of hard work before they accept that they might be capable of actually generating something vaguely resembling aggression. After those months, they basically finally reach the point that a male of the same build and physical capacity had the first day of class. Then after that they will go to amazing effort to avoid anything that might bear even a passing resemblance to self defense or practical application, constantly trying to modify their techniques in order to take the power out and make them more likely to injure themself than their target.

[Liokault]

Why would they get bruises from fixed step Push hands?

Well how do you do your free style fixed step?


We stand facing each other with our front feet over lapping and aim to controle each othetrs hands with an aim to making them move their feet or totch the ground.

Now this can be gentle and carring or it can be a very rough experiance. If you lose controle of your oponents hands you will get a palm strick to the chest, if you over extend an arm with out cpntroling your oponents arms you will go down with an arm lock.

If I am much more skilled than my oponent I can easly "win" with little or no force being used, but if my unskilled oponent lets me stand that close to them with out controling my arms should I not strick them?.....what are they learning if im gentel with them?

[Laughing Cow]

Liokault.

Don't know what Tui shou you guys are practicing.

For us it is a co-operative exercise to develop sensitivity.
There should be no striking involved, NEITHER should there be an attitude of winning or loosing as that goes counter to what I as taught Tui Shou is all about.

This is true for the TJQ styles I touched as well as for all the other guys I talked to.

Yes, you are supposed to unbalance or uproot your opponent if possible, but you should not strike or injure them.

We are taught a progression as follows Tui Shou:
1.) no-step
2.) 1-step
3.) 3 step
4.) Free-form.

From there on you progress into
San Shou(Sparring hands)
which again goes from arranged drills into free-form.

Like I said this goes counter to whet I know about TJQ and what, IMO is written in the classics too.

I was taught that Tui Shou is NOT a form of sparring or competition.

Seeya round.

[kj]

Originally posted by Liokault
<snip>If I am much more skilled than my oponent I can easly "win" with little or no force being used, but if my unskilled oponent lets me stand that close to them with out controling my arms should I not strick them?.....what are they learning if im gentel with them?

Well, when you put it that way, maybe they will learn even better if you hit them even harder. Heck, if you knock them down or out, training to perfection should take no time at all! :rolleyes:

Again, it isn't a gender issue. You just don't know how many of the guys you've PO'd.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[TigerJaw]

Originally posted by kj


Well, when you put it that way, maybe they will learn even better if you hit them even harder. Heck, if you knock them down or out, training to perfection should take no time at all! :rolleyes:

Again, it isn't a gender issue. You just don't know how many of the guys you've PO'd.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

*TigerJaw raises hand*

Seriously, those boys are too rough for me. I went expecting to be taught how to root and sence my opponants movements without the use of strength. Instead I got bruise ligaments in my elbow and some nasty bruises on my upper arm. Mind you I am a girly wuss student type.

I think Liokault that your class IS rough but it's horses for courses and there are many ways to reach martial proficiency. Lots of people are put off by the roughness but then again, lots of people are attracted to it. I know Mark loved it and wouldn't have been happy doing 'never more than 6 pounds' Cheng Man-Ching type push hands.

BTW Please don't take any of this as a slight. I have the greatest respect for your Sifu.

[SaMantis]

OK, here's a solution for you: Why don't you ask your training partner what level they are comfortable with? And then respect their response?

Communication works wonders.

Solution #2 is: if you're not willing to ask that question, and you're not willing to reduce the strength/power you bring to the exercise, then be honest and don't work with that person.

Yeah, it means your sifu will probably be unhappy with you, and yeah, it limits the number of training partners significantly. But you'll also be able to train at the pain/power level you want, and you'll have more fun, and the junior students won't be huddling in the corner whenever your sifu announces it's time for push hands.

If my response sounds a little harsh, no disrespect intended, but if you attend a school that teaches full-contact tui shou and the sifu tells you to back off a bit, you probably hit hella-hard.

[Liokault]

Well thanks for the replys every body.....apart from berserker who sounds like a real fukwit.

[Mr Punch]

To be fair, it's really difficult to guage what power to go at with whom correctly each time.

1) Had this woman join once, with a friend of hers to 'minder' her; and understandably: she'd been in an RTA and wound up with some serious lower back problems, some facial disfigurement, and also had serious self-confidence issues... started her same as everyone else: soft on technique, frim on basic posture, movement etc, with allowances for a lesser range of movement. She came to two lessons.

Reason for quitting: I'd taught her a wider kneeling posture than most to compensate for back pain, and to provide her with more stability in relation to the weakness her injury caused. Turns out she was miffy about spreading her ****ing legs too wide cause it made her feel vulnerable as a woman! And this is someone who said she wanted to learn self-defence!!!

2) Threw this other woman a few times. She was a two grades lower than me, but more to the point she was about 5'0". She gave me a bollocking and got me a further one from one of my sempai for throwing her too lightly.

3) Big geezer, mebbe 6'3" and 200lbs (I'm 6'1" and 155 or so) comes along. Go easy on him as a beginner. Bumped into him after he'd left after three classes, asked how he was doing, if he was coming back and what he was looking for in MA. He said he was looking for a non-macho BS MA, and I said that I liked aiki for that reason, and that in some places people just like hurting you excessively with no god reason or explanation... and he looks at me and says that's what I'd done to him!!! I really couldn't believe that one: the guy had arms like ****ing tree trunks!

4) Sometimes you get it right in the give'n'take of things. Third time I broke my nose, I had been teaching 15 year-old a bit about accuracy, sharpening up his movements, and training up his power generation in the execution of tenchinage. couple times later, he spins me round and WHAM, snout's gone again, real dizzy, tears, blood, head spinning, weak knees...! He apologized and I just laughed and congratulated him (making a mental note to sharpen up my own guard!). Of course, it then took a few weeks to tone his newly-clicked power generation and accuracy down a bit!!!

oops, sorry, that was long...

[red5angel]

I just try to gauge my control and force with each individual opponent. With women they sometimes aren't into going harder or faster so I cool it off. The best way to find out is to ask them though. Make sure you aren't doing something they don't like.

[shaolinboxer]

By being too forcefull you alienate people from training, and cause injury to another person who trusted you with their body. Excessive force is a sign of weakness and lack of skill.

Self defense is very personal. How can I know what problems are affecting my training partner? Martial art should be taught in a way that allows people to find their own way of practicing, while preserving the core of techniques and principals.

[Black Jack]

Like Red said just gauge your power to the individual. Just don't let your partner male of female waste to much of your training time if they are just not getting it.

Some people are just mouth breathers no matter how much help you give them. It becomes irksome after a certain degree of time. As a paying student you are their to train. Not to be the constant partner for some nitwit who sometime in the distant past had the unfortunate experiance of Darwin taking a leak in her gene pool.

I have a individual in a class of mine that is like that now. It sucks and I hope she quits soon. I tend to get cranky when people don't listen and when they think you are going to sweep them they giggle/yell and jump onto you with their legs and claws.

Nobody really wants her there. Even the other girl.

Plus ladies take off the jewelry when grappling. Christ.

[red5angel]

I tend to get cranky when people don't listen and when they think you are going to sweep them they giggle/yell and jump onto you with their legs and claws.

LOL! That's when your supposed to lay the smack down BJ!!!

[SaMantis]

Plus ladies take off the jewelry when grappling. Christ.

Word on that. Nothing like practicing a blocking/conditioning drill and shredding your knuckles or shin on someone's engagement ring. (not grappling, but same problem)

[Black Jack]

Lets add to that two more items which are bonafide tarded.

1.) Long Nails- i have gotten cut on long fake nails more than anything else.

2.) Perfume- If I wanted to train with a fruit I would of went to the grocery store and knuckled up with a mellon. Plus the crap burns your eyes. Training with someone who takes a french wh@re shower is not a good way to start your day.

[shaolinboxer]

My hands are all cut up right now from a lady's finger nails.

[Shaolin-Do]

Havent had that problem :)
I just go real gentle with wimmins until I see what they are comfortable with. Generally just give them the exact same level they give me.

[red5angel]

it figures a guy like you would use the word "wimmins" in place of women shaolin-do. Why don't you take a sensitivity training course. I bet your part of the reason women don't train at your kwoon.:rolleyes:

[patriot]

http://www.wushuweb.com/forum/Announce/Announce.asp?BoardID=92&ID=212726

This lady in China likes it rough - she is looking for a husband (as reported in the newspaper). Qualification - one who can beat her. So far she had eliminated all 3 guys in the first round.

[fa_jing]

I prefer to train privately or semi-privately for a number of reasons. Not sparring with women and beginners is one of them. If the women was proficient enough and not easily damaged I would gladly work with her, however after having participated in 3 different MA schools only 1 woman fit that bill, a 3rd degree TKD Blackbelt who could break 6 boards with a back kick.

[Shaolin-Do]

"Why don't you take a sensitivity training course"

Ever seen the family guy when Peter goes to one?

:D

hehehe
I say wimmins cause Im trying to refrain from saying "b!tches"
or "broads". Wimmins when spoken translates to women, (not literally, when I say it)
Just more or less trying to break a bad habit that tends to get me in trouble.
With broads.
:D :D :D

[SanShou Guru]

No offense, but if you regularly bruise anyone in moving push hands you are not very good and likely fall under the category of “what you lack in skill you make up in effort”. With that said, are you teaching self defense push hands, i.e. for street, or for competition? I have trained with two of the best coaches in the US for years and have almost never had bruise or any injury from them, and they hand me my a$$ when they want to. But in tournaments I have pushed with many competitors that have bruised me or scratched me. I refer to those opponents as the easy first round opponents because they did not make it much further.

Also I was taught to “Invest in Losing” that means if you have a technique you know works use something else when practicing. Also there are 2 reasons you could be bruising and/or injuring people; you are stronger and better and you always push to win or they give you a run for you money and you have to cross into competition mode to beat them.

If I had a student or coach under me injuring students they would get the same lecture you did. We have had San shou students that were too aggressive top fight beginners so they were only allowed to spar the coaches. They either lightened up or got lit up. In Push hands class I was put with the aggressive guys for safety sake, I could take it. I would let then push me around for a while or just defend. Then I would soften and hand them there a$$ for the rest of the round. Aggression in push hands is the EASIEST thing to counter. It’s like bringing an axe to a gun fight. I’ll just kill you at range or let you crash in and shoot you in the chest point blank-.

The last think to remember is if it was just one maybe two people that made the comment it could be a fluke. If it was 3 or more then it is likely right.

San Shou Guru
3x US San Shou Champion
1x US Push Hands Champion

[red5angel]

****** shaolin do, here I was bored and trying to troll you and you practically made me shoot soda out of my nose!!!!!

[fa_jing]

Please do not talk about WOMYNS this way.

[Shaolin-Do]

Can you do that on a regular basis?
Kinda like a Chi blast?
That would be impressive....
"made me shoot soda out of my nose!!!!!"

And very unexpected...
:D

[red5angel]

LOL! Alright, your alright brother, no matter what the rest of these guys say ;)

[Shaolin-Do]

hehehe...
The old guy I work with tells me that 2 or 3 times a day.
:)
hehehehe


I can read minds....

and red5 thinks "hey! are you calling me old?!?"

The answer? We may never know....
:D

[kj]

Originally posted by SanShou Guru
[Good stuff was here ...]

Excellent post, SanShou Guru.

========================

As for complaints about trimmed nails and removal of jewelry ... where's the ubiquitous cry for of realism in that? I have yet to hear tell of villains pausing to take off rings and trim their nails before all heck breaks loose. ;)

Seriously, regarding removal of jewelry, short and neatly trimmed nails, and other issues of safety and personal hygiene - these should be clearly identified not only as courtesies, but as mandatory requirements for everyone in a partner training environment.

Again, it is not just a gender issue. I remember a friend of mine being severely and repeatedly scratched in the face because of his own sifu's refusal to remove a ring during an "impressive" public demonstration. Guys are just so vain! :p ;)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Mr Punch]

I agree with kj about the mandatory reqs in a training place to ban jewellery and long nails, but...

I do like to get practise with people wearing watches, heavy rings etc, for precisely those 'reality' reasons. However, 'reality days' are mostly impossible to insure properly for, so I usually just go to the park with friends...

two things on nails:

1) Warn them. if they don't comply, nine times out of ten, if they are training with any degree of intensity, their nails will get damaged and will cause them pain very soon. They will not need to be warned again.
2) I have a scar on my arm fom where I blocked a guy and his (long) nail cut me, and several from guys grabbing me (with short nails). The length of the nail doesn't really matter in my experience. Nails hurt. Get used to it!

[anton]

Valkyrite? Spearchucker? Maroon? Critisisi?

Welcome to earth dude...

[SaMantis]

Sanshou Guru,

Aggression in push hands is the EASIEST thing to counter. It’s like bringing an axe to a gun fight.

:D LOL true. Best example I've seen of that is at a push hands tournament a couple years back. One competitor was this huge black guy, very muscular ("muscles on muscles"). Almost everyone he faced was absolutely intimidated by his stature, and when the ref said "go" would try to shove him off balance. He just shifted slightly left or right and let their own momentum send them tumbling. No visible power used, except he sometimes lifted their elbow slightly as they shot past him, and when he did this their back foot would leave the ground. Couple of times his competitors went completely ass over elbows. He won 3-4 matches this way before meeting someone who wasn't intimidated by him. (Won that match too, but it looked more like push hands and less like aikido.)

[fidon]

Just go softer on them, they generally will tell you if the want it harder or not, anyway as chicks progress through they seem to be aggressive as in not holding back when they hit, i have seen some hit way harder than most guys in class.

[Taomonkey]

"anti-rape techniques = grappling"

Really, I would think the guard would be the last place a woman would want to find herself in a sexual assault.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Taomonkey
Really, I would think the guard would be the last place a woman would want to find herself in a sexual assault. Sorry about this, but that has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever seen on this board... and boy does that have to beat some ****.

The last place a woman wants to be is anywhere near a sexual assault... but the last place she will be before the actual perpetration is on the ground, whether she wants to be there or not!. Haven't seen any stats, but I doubt many rapes are committed standing up.

Of course, anyone worried about this kind of thing should train standing techniques too (or more importantly, should train running), but if they can't run, the chances of them boxing a stranger without just ****ing him off will be precious few and a precious waste of time.

IMO.

[truewrestler]

Mat is correct. Why some people can't understand this, I'm not sure....especially martial artists of all people.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by truewrestler
Mat is correct. Why some people can't understand this, I'm not sure....especially martial artists of all people. :D Thank you truewrestler, of course I'm correct. Why some people can't understand this, I'm not sure....especially martial artists of all people.:D

[truewrestler]

****, I meant romo...not correct :p

[TjD]

my biggest problem with women isn't going about going light - i have no problem with that. it's just that their freakin breasts get in the way, and if i accidentally hit them i can't help but feel like they think im a perv.

whenever i do a 2 person drill with a woman, i usually start it with a disclaimer that if i hit anything, i didn't mean to. but still :D

[kj]

Originally posted by TjD
my biggest problem with women isn't going about going light - i have no problem with that. it's just that their freakin breasts get in the way, and if i accidentally hit them i can't help but feel like they think im a perv.

whenever i do a 2 person drill with a woman, i usually start it with a disclaimer that if i hit anything, i didn't mean to. but still :D

I know what you mean. I feel the same way every time I hit a guy in the testicles.

Well, okay, maybe not, but I thought saying so might make you guys feel better. :D

As practitioners and as partners helping each other in training, we all need to "get over it." Communication is distinctly the key. Growing in trust also helps over time. "Maturity" on everyone's part is an obvious asset.

FWIW, it is incredibly easy to ID the "real" pervs; they know who they are, they reveal themselves easily, and they deserve no mercy. I'm not talking about regular guys with a helpless and guilt-ridden thought every 10 seconds. Or is it 6? :D I'm talking "pervert." :mad: There are indeed a few out there, though rarely encountered in training. Most women know the difference very easily.

I pray there aren't many women pervs out there, but there are no doubt a few. Teases may be more of a problem on occasion. That type of behavior has no place in a mature training environment either.

It's unfortunate that today's emphasis on P.C.'ness has most of operating in a state of semi-paranoia much of the time. Again, talking can help alleviate everyone's concerns, and ensure that partners operate in mutual comfort zones.

TjD's disclaimer is a great illustration - an excellent way to broach the subject, and resolve the dilemma.

Regards,
- kj

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Mat
Sorry about this, but that has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever seen on this board... and boy does that have to beat some ****.

The last place a woman wants to be is anywhere near a sexual assault... but the last place she will be before the actual perpetration is on the ground, whether she wants to be there or not!. Haven't seen any stats, but I doubt many rapes are committed standing up.

Of course, anyone worried about this kind of thing should train standing techniques too (or more importantly, should train running), but if they can't run, the chances of them boxing a stranger without just ****ing him off will be precious few and a precious waste of time.

IMO.

Mat has caught the correct and brutalized it the way Liokault brutalizes women.

I helped a friend of mine with a women's self defense seminar at a local women's gym. It consisted mainly of grappling for the very reason that he stated.

[Ming Yue]

Regarding women and grappling, In an assault situation, I'm almost sure to be overpowered even though I may have the training experience edge. I'm not going to try to pin and KO a violent guy. But, knowledge of ground techniques can buy me time, to make noise or cause pain and ideally get the heck up and out of there.

Regarding "bad touch": In my old school in CA, there was a guy we referred to as "boob toucher". Boob toucher was obviously not just bad at aiming his gut punches. He was creepy and pretty much just wrong, on many levels. He didn't last long.

Most girls who've trained for a while are way less concerned with getting touched than the guys who touch them, especially if the guy is young. I'll usually just try to head the situation off if I see that my training partner is uncomfortable and just say "do what you gotta do, let's just practice the technique."