Official response to ShaolinDo challenge

[reemul]

Having emailed our school, The Willow Sword painted the picture of his wounded honor and sought the response of my instructor. For what reason I'm not sure. As far as I was concerned this was a personal matter, however after reading TWS's email, my instructor had this to say about TWS's challenge.

"I'm tired of Japanese and Korean systems as well as others, capitalizing off the Shaolin name. I spent the majority of my life dedicated to the survival of a shaolin system that would have otherwise gone extint and it is quite irritating when Kiddy Karate schools try to pass them selves off as kungfu let alone Shaolin kungfu. Your challenge is accepted."

He called me to inform the forum to bear witness to the following. We do not do Kiddy Karate point sparring, We generally do 2 minute rounds of full contact. Anything along those lines are acceptable. He would also like to add that after the sparring we will share some formwork just to show a spirit of friendship.

[Radhnoti]

He calls it "kiddy karate", then shows interest in "The Spirit of Friendship"?
In any case, I'm glad this thing's going to happen. Is HE going to spar TWS or you? And is it going to be on the neutral ground JWT mentioned, or somewhere else? Witnesses from the forum are still invited I hope? SOMEONE'S got to get JWT's cookies of honor. ;)
Um...someone else might want to repeat my questions as reemul has said he'd ignore my posts.
:D

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

[MonkeySlap Too]

Alrighty then.

May I recommend neutrual ground, and someone like JWT as the ref.

May I also suggest video tape?

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[shaolin_knight]

He calls it "kiddy karate", then shows interest in "The Spirit of Friendship"?
In any case, I'm glad this thing's going to happen. Is HE going to spar TWS or you? And is it going to be on the neutral ground JWT mentioned, or somewhere else? Witnesses from the forum are still invited I hope? SOMEONE'S got to get JWT's cookies of honor. :)

[Radhnoti]

Thanks S_K.
:)

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

[reemul]

It's gonna be me who is to fight TWS, however my instructor has also extended the challenge to Joe Shaefer as Well, Seeing as Willow has seen fit to make what I considered a personal matter, a school wide afair.

[jjr213]

I know exactly how all of you feel. I've been a TKD student for 15 years now and I always hated it when those who were ignorant referred to everything as karate. I'm making a transition into shaolin kung fu, and the first thing I saw was that while my long experience in TKD will help me with some of the smaller aspects of kung fu, on the whole they are completely different.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Actually, TKD was derived from Shotokan Karate.

All the original forms were right out of Karate Do Kyohan. Even the names were translated into Korean.

What's the big deal?

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[The Willow Sword]

OKay first of all the reason for attempting to e-mail master Finley(Reemuls' Teacher) was to assertain why Reemul was being so disresepctful of other martial systems And to inform him of the challege and the insult to me and my school on the forums. Well reemul caught the e-mail and responded by saying that i was "so full of crap". and as we have all seen with this "official response" to My challenge " it would seem to me that MAster finley is teaching his students and instructors to be disrespectfull to other disciplines,,namely ours the most ,it would seem. Well that is a shame,,For Master Shaefer does not teach this to us and i have certainly not taught this ideology to the students at SD.
2 minutes of full contact HUH? You got it,,thats fine with me. so what does FULL contact mean exactly? does it mean that i can fully contact your throat ,temple,,groin? or are there going to be rules to this "full contact" event before the forms are shown? like i said before,,,this will be on neutral ground and MY TEACHER WILL HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS. This is my crusade not his,,you want to challenge master shaefer,,go on ahead but he does not frequent this forum so you had better call him up and make the challenge yourself. and I have not made this a school wide thing, REEMUL has by printing out my email to his school and lollygagging aroud with excuses about coming to his school to issue the challenge and the conflicting statements that RAD has been tuned into.
SO the place: Zilker Park, by the theatre at barton springs pool(its nice and secluded enough)
when: November(to be determined when i know when exactly i will be getting there)[a week before thanksgiving]most likeley a saturday or sunday.
Time: lets make it 1:00pm. the yang energies will be at thier strongest then,,will make for a good spar.

Ill post when november arrives,,until then,,,,keep training Reemul. oh and by the way,,,I have never said anything bad about your school or your discipline,,,,thats the difference between you and i, SFB! i fight for honor,,and you fight to save face. that is also the difference between you and i.
Many respects,,,Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[Anarcho]

Mate, you e-mailed his Sifu. No offence, and I'm not taking sides in this exciting drama, but you did make it a school-wide matter by doing that. If it was just going to be between you and him, you should have kept it between you and him.

[diego]

between honor and face?

[The Willow Sword]

Honor: Good name or public esteem, a showing of merited respect. A keen sense of ethical conduct.
INTEGRITY(something Reemul does not have). To live up to or fufill the terms of.

FACE(as in to save face): The apparent Value or significance,(if reemuls remarks can be taken at face value,) To confront(Face up) to a situation being AVOIDED(face up to the situation).

SO you all got the differences now????

Many Respects,,Willow SWord

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[reemul]

First of all I am respectful of other systems. What you took as an insult was simply my personal opinion given my personal experience with your system on topic that was about SD. This is a forum of discussion and not everyone will see eye to eye and as people have pretty much figured out about me and a few others on the forum, some of us are not as PC about everything we say. You don't see me getting bent just cuz someone thinks our school is not lagit. As for my instructor teaching us to be "haters" don't think so. My teacher hasn't had anything to say about your school to us or anybody else until you emailed him. You keep trying to come off as the honorable
warrior, wounded by an evil jakal and you're the one who's been slinging insults more than anyone.
As for the "Kiddy Karate", No offense to the "true" Karate practioners, you know who you are. This comment was aimed at the "Belt machines".

[This message was edited by reemul on 08-18-01 at 08:34 AM.]

[Radhnoti]

Polite subjects:
To TWS and Radhnoti : You ignorant Fu$%*
To Dumb & Dumber aka TWS and Radhnoti
To Radhnoti, your a dumba$$
actually you dumba$$
Polite posts:
"The both of you need to get some serious reading comprehension skills. I'm starting to believe that you are both retarded."
"Ya know I'm starting think I should'nt accept the challenge. Don't know if I could live with myself
for beating up a retard."
"As far as SD putting out good fighters my opinion was formed from me shamelessly beating them so easily and from a friend who also recieved no comp from so called SD instructors. TWS challenged me, cuz I know how to push his buttons. I'm sure it's possible SD may have a few people who can fight, no thanks to SD (naturals). "
"As far as Nov. is concerned, when I'm done with Willow you guys can send Joe in, or maybe even GM Sin. If this is what offends you, too Fu#$#n bad."
"When we meet I will introduce my self as reemul, and when you get your ass beat, you can tell everyone you got your ass beat by reemul."

"I just hope Willow's defeat doesn't crush your spirit. Oh and don't worry I'll remove you nose from Willow's a$$ in the process."
"As for checking out the SD class of wussies forget about it. I've watched Shaolin do classes and have yet to be impressed."
"The History of the Shaolin Do system is far beyond questionable, its a straight up fable."
"The question before us is not whether the forms are impressive (even though I was not impressed)."
"One question
Can you fight? My experience in fighting You guys tells me the answer is no."
"Now as for your schools forms being martial then why is it a fellow classmate of mine goes up to the Shaolin do school here in town and beats up on their instructors. Now for all the effort you go into making it seem like Shaolin do trains for actual combat it amazes me how a whole school, larger than ours in members, cant deliver against one person."

"If you tired of smelling chicken and the flies are annoying, tell your Mom to pull up her pants."


"First of all I am respectful of other systems. What you took as an insult was simply my personal opinion given my personal experience with your system on topic that was about SD. "
-I have NO idea why TWS decided to challenge him, he's been so respectful and polite...it's a shame, really.

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

[cho]

TWS, YOU made this challenge by emailing reemul's teacher. YOU are the one trying to save face and "honor" for your "crusade".K

[reemul]

Why don't you pull your nose out of Willows ass and post some his posts.

[reemul]

If JWT is still willing to host the event I say we go with his location. Fighting in Zilker will just get us arrested.

[Losttrak]

Let me know if Austin doesnt work out. I know a few places up here that you guys could use. Just bear in mind this will be a challenge bout, not a deathmatch. I don't want anybody beating someone with a detached limb or anything. =p Lets leave that to clay-mation.

"If you and I agree all the time, then one of us is unnecessary."

[Radhnoti]

TWS doesn't claim he hasn't insulted you, just not your school. In fact, at one point he apologized for his personal insults. I'm only pointing out your most obvious untruths. Don't say silly or untrue things that can be contradicted by your own words.
Since the fight is on again, there's (again) really not much to say. Best of luck to both of you...especially to TWS, heh...and I hope something good comes of all this.

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

[Royal Dragon]

Come on guys, a challenge match set for NOVEMBER???

If you want to test one anothers systems, you need to fight NOW!! Before either party can go train under professional coaches.
Personally, I think Willow sword would have to be the one to do that, but either party training differently for the next few months negates the results of the challeng. If you want to truly test eachothers training, you need to fight NOW wile your systems are un corrupted. With a date SO FAR in the future, BOTH partys will be altering thier training methods for this fight(It's only natural), and neither will be accurate representations of thier school. If you fight now, you are fighting AS YOU WERE TRAINED by your respective Sifus.

If you guys aren't willing to fight now then your just scared, incompetent or insecure of your abilitys. That alone settles the argument for me.

Shaolin Do is a Sham. IT IS NOT Shaolin Kung fu and never will be.

I too get ****ed by all theses "Kidd'ie" schools prostituting the Shaolin name for comercial gain. True Shaolin training is a cut above the rest, and should be KNOWN for that. But, instead you have all these "imitators" trying to pass them selves off as the real thing, and consequently Shaolin is seen as "Flowery dance" and laughed at by those that have NEVER seen any thing more than "imitators" like Shaolin Do.

My system was taught at Shaolin, and "I" don't even promote the system as Shaolin, and I can legitimately do it. So why do "Kempo" schools claim to be Shaolin? and why do "bad" Japanese Karate schools like Shaolin Do "act" as if they were Shaolin???

If they are so good, why do they need to mislead every one to make thier buisness prosper?

I hate to say this, because of thier attitude towards us, but you'll never see a BJJ school saying they teach Shaolin, and then actually teach BJJ. Why, because they are GOOD at what they do. Only low skilled charlatans need to mislead people, and I think that after every thing I have seen, read and heard from Many, Many sources (including comparing "thier" Mantis form off thier web site to th real thing), that Shaolin Do IS a charlaten school.

Willow sword, you NEED to find a REAL Sifu. Once you get involved with the real thing, you'll look at SD like it is nothing more than a Saturday morning cartoon in comparisen to real life.

I Hate Frauds!!!!

Royal Dragon


Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

[Radhnoti]

November is when TWS is going to be where reemul lives. Had you protested earlier I might take your point more seriously, but shouting it now just sounds like you're setting up for a reemul loss.
"Oh, SURE he went and got a coach, no wonder he won!"
The November date has been set in stone from the beginning.
Unless that was all an attempt to troll for response, in which case...I guess I lose. Hope no one else falls for it. :rolleyes:

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

[reemul]

Our school trains in a cyclical manner and boxing season has just started. If TWS wants to wait till Nov. I don't care, our school will be at the apex of boxing season. I'm comfortable whenever.

[The Willow Sword]

HO Hum Ho Hum. YAWWWNNN!!!! :rolleyes:

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[Fu-Pow]

I think Royal Dragon's response is valid. It did not violate martial virtue because he is not insulting you personally he trying to get you to see something in a new light. Whatever you might think TWS, most people on this forum want you to quit Shaolin-do because they think it is a fraud, they don't think that you are a fraud. Always think for yourself, whatever system you do. Take a look a round. To dismiss something when you know nothing about it is the highest form of ignorance.

Peace and good luck

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[Royal Dragon]

Some how the geoagrphy involved here slipped me. I thought the two were close enough to get together easier (Ooppss!!)


Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

[The Willow Sword]

SNNNNOOORRRRREEEE!!!! YAWWWNNN. SNOOOORREEE!!! :rolleyes:

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[BeiKongHui]

if he were he could start his research by, oh say, comparing his "short katas" which Sin The claims to be Tan Tui to Kung Fu styles such as Wah Lum (Hope I spelled that right Chan Poi's school)that have proven legitimate lineages and do Tan Tui as well.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

[cho]

"TWS is not interested in the truth "

Some people like walking in circles,
some like to know where they're going.

Just look at the past threads, I know, they're long. TWS hasn't disproved anything about the "Shaolin" Tai Chi in his school.

[Silumkid]

I have been reading this string for a while now and I must say, it's pretty funny!

I think it is safe to say as well that there is no longer any point to trying to put blame on anyone...if this match is really going to happen, placing blame at this point is useless. Rad's postings of insults (without equal posting of their own) is just silly.

By the way, out of curiousity, what do either of you think this is going to prove? My personal feelings notwithstanding, is this another "my style is better than yours"? Seriously, no matter which one of you wins, I think we are all just going to laugh at the whole thing. UFC never made me switch styles, and I'm sure this won't either no matter which one of you wins.

Don't get me wrong, if this is more of a personal thing then go for it. I never claimed anything was wrong with fighting, I just wonder what the honest intentions are?

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[cho]

"out of curiousity, what do either of you think this is going to prove?"

Willow Sword is fighing this "crusade" for his "honor".

[Silumkid]

Cho,

Is this related to the "face vs. honor" question someone asked that was replied to somewhat rudely? :D

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[cho]

I believe so.

TWS was giving some of his Zen wisdom gained from Shaolin gongfu practice.

[Radhnoti]

Reemul insulted TWS' style, saying it was without merit...including personal tales of "shamelessly" beating fellow SD students. TWS, in my opinion rightly, felt insulted and decided to show reemul that he was mistaken.
It seems pretty straightforward to me. I only posted reemul's own words to show obvious mistruths...and probably out of spite, he did insult the style I've chosen as well. Silumkid, I never claimed to be an impartial observer. I don't think TWS is expecting anything REALLY to change after this bout...with the possible exception of reemul's mouth shutting when it comes to SD.
To be fair, Cho, no one has disproven SD's version of Tai Chi either. I invite you to go to the internal boards where TWS posted quite often...either everyone over there is WAY more polite than those on the shaolin forum, or he knows a bit about internal martial arts. Or...don't, make assumptions based on heresay and join the SD bashing bandwagon. That's certainly the easier course.

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

[Silumkid]

Now, now, Rad, don't jump on me because I asked a few questions which may deflate an ego or three.

First, I never accused you of being an impartial observer...as I said, I read quite a bit of this. I know exactly where you stand from your posts. All I did say was that it was useless to repeat things that he has said in the past, it lends nothing to the present.

Also, if I wanted to flame Shaolin-Do, I would have. I visited a school here locally once, decided it wasn't for me and that was that. I also know nothing about reemul's school or teacher, nor do I really care to, just as I am sure many could care less about mine.

My point is this: It is very easy for folks to puff up their chests and in classic Shaw Brothers form say "Your school insulted my school. We fight!" The hard part is honestly looking at why these 2 feel the need to fight over a difference of opinion. Again, I am not saying they should or shouldn't just as I would not want anyone to tell me what to do in my life. I do think, though, that we can all learn something from this.

And honestly, do you really believe either person will be "shut up" if they lose? It's a one time encounter...if we were talking about a series of meetings where one person clearly dominated the other every time, it would be a different story but again, proves nothing about "style".

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[Radhnoti]

Silumkid, sorry if it seemed I "jumped on you". I do tend to post in "defensive" mode, but no offense was meant. I respectfully disagree about the relevance of reposting old info. New forum members pop up all the time, and most don't review the old stuff as you say you have. So, reemul saying that's he's done nothing to provoke TWS and that he's never spoke poorly of SD might be believed by a newcomer.
Frankly, I don't think reemul can win. And I'm not speaking only of the physical. He and others like him have talked SD down so completely that some imagine an SD student is more inept than someone that's never had any sort of training. TWS beating him will, of course, give a SD supporter (such as myself) a point to bring up when he decides to attack.
Example:
Reemul - "SD is NOT a practical art of self defense. I know this to be fact."
Me - "It was good enough to beat you back in November. How has the quality decreased since?"

The REAL attacks will come from others who once wished reemul the best. If he was beaten by a SD guy, he must not be studying a "REAL CMA" guy. A perfect correlation to this can be seen on the main KFO boards when Shaolin_Tiger00 fought Rolls/Ralek. He won, but his lack of dominance led to MANY personal attacks by those who'd previously been his stronger supporters.
He might try coming back as a different user, but it's surprising how quickly and often stuff like that is revealed around here. I'm sure reemul is a fine fighter/artist, don't get me wrong, but to REALLY win he'd have to be considerably more skilled than TWS AND he'd have to SHOW it that day. It's all just a matter of perception. And, in my opinion, TWS challenging reemul can't decrease the kung-fu community's perception of SD...it can only be improved. It's sort of a nowhere to go but up situation. Again, this is all just my opinion. Life rarely works out as I imagine or expect, really, the only thing to do is wait for November and then the fallout from the fight.

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

[Silumkid]

Rad, no worries...it takes a lot to offend me and you were nowhere near that. It's all good. :)

I must admit I did not consider the "new forum members" when I commented, but on the same vein I would contend that a person who jumps on your guys case without knowing the background deserves nothing less than to be ignored. Of course, not speaking from your position, it's probably difficult at best to ignore constant attacks from bandwagoneers.

True, life rarely works out how we plan...but isn't that what makes it fun? :D

In any case, I wish both fighters well. Do what you can not to get arrested and also be wary of "tough guy" spectators who may think you are screwing around and try to get in on it.

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[joedoe]

This dicussion is pointless for two reasons:

1) No matter what happens in Nov. the SD detractors will still think SD sucks, and the SD supporters will still think it is wonderful.

2) There is no point in carrying on like this. Wait and see what happens in Nov. then we can do the post-fight analysis.

My personal view is that if you enjoy doing SD and it works for you, then fine. If someone doesn't think it is authentic Shaloin and that the school's name is fraudulent, then that is their opinion and they are entitled to it. Why get all worked up over it?

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

[Radhnoti]

Silumkid, you'd be surprised how many SD members peruse these boards. I've received plenty of e-mails from SD folks ignoring the bad and taking in the good. They're the smart ones. Nice to have you on the forum, by the way.
ABandit.
Point 1, I agree. The only persons who might change their viewpoint is the loser of the challenge.
Point 2, amen.

I agree that everyone is entitled to an opinion. My concern has always been that the nay sayers are the primary influence for most people's opinion of SD. I just try to offer my perspective to balance the negative in my small corner of the universe. After all, SD has changed my life for the better...how terrible it would be if someone passed up the opportunity to learn a CMA. And all because they read bad things about it on an internet message board. :(
I hope that anyone reading this right now goes and checks out ALL the martial arts available to them and picks what they like best. That's what I did.

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

[The Willow Sword]

All of these people who are coming on to this thread seem to be like all the others who create a "let's bash SD" thread. I wonder why it is that we constantly disresepct martial systems be they shaolin hybrids or schools that have Rare shaolin roots or other schools claiming shaolin lineage?
So far Reemul along with others here put down a school that has been here in this country since the late 60's. this is an old school in comparison to others that have started much later in this country. I know that it is difficult for some of you to comprehend the fact that there might be a school out there with a unique lineage to the temple. You constantly try to "compare" what you do to what i do and then you make a judgement based on wild conjecture and bullSh!t.
the bashing constantly has to do with the history of the school and the Man who started the school here in this country to begin with. But as of yet the solid hard proof is not there to substantiate any body's claims against the Shaolin-Do school. All i have been reading is the personal bickerings of students who have been there before and left due to some "awakening" or "realization" that the school was not for them or that they found out the "truth" from another school or instructor that SD is a fake and not legitamate CMA. All of you SD bashers seem to have this grandious view of what CMA is becuase either you watch toooo many movies or you look at the outward appearence of a Cma school and say"now thats CMA". you believe what your asian instructors tell you and you believe thier diatribe against Sd for they have some personal vendetta for they are not familiar with our history for THEY are the authorities on Chinese history, culture and martial arts? You guys are the best when it comes to mouth boxing in this forum. I on the other hand have answered the insults and bickering of one of you with a challenge. I have stuck to it letting everyone know who i am and what i do and how long i have been doing it. it took alot of chiding at reemul to finally let us know where he trains on this forum. i imagine that his Teacher boosted his ego on this matter probably saying that" this guy will be no problem for you,,he does kiddy karate charaltan CMA". I know that all of you who hate us and our school are trying to throw in a monkey wrench in the ideology here with regards to this challenge,,,,and i know that you all think that this will not change anything about what YOU all think about SD. What this Will change for you all is that there is a SD person willing to step up and answer to the insults being thrown out,,FOR THERE IS NOT ONE OF YOU NOT ONE, WHO HAS THE BALLS ,COURAGE OR INTEGRITY TO STAND UP IN FRONT OF ANY OF OUR FACES AND TALK YOUR SH!T. Instead you do it here where you are safe behind your computer talking trash and feeling good about yourself,,but i tell you ,,one of these days there is going to be a life humbling experience for you for you will talk your sh!t in front of the wrong person and get a beating that you never even thought was possible(now dont take this as a challenge from me ) this is a principle in the martail arts relm that states what comes around goes around. its funny though that the SD school has not had any of these "what comes around goes around experiences" if we were a fraudulant school or a CHarlatan school the karma would naturally have to work against us...but as you can see folks we have schools in a lot of places with alot of students,,and we prosper, and our successful and we do produce some good fighters and martial artists,,and guess what?.....ITS A SHAOLIN SCHOOL. not your shaolin school and certainly not the shaolin temple of today's shaolin school(communist wushu).now i know some of you have sparred Sd people before and "beaten" them, so you say.
The degree and level at which a student excells depends on thier resolve and dedication to what they are practicing in. whether they be a black belt or no that fact a stated above remains.
So now you are going to see, should any of you wish to witness, a SD disciple who is dedicated to his school and the art of SHaolin and who has been a martial artist for over 15 yrs and a teacher for 4 yrs and is not cowardly as so much as to be vague about WHO HE IS,,ANND WHO IS MAN ENOUGH TO STAND IN FRONT OF YOU AND SAY THAT "YOU ARE FULL OF SH1T WITH YOUR TRASH TALK AND INSULTS,REEMUL. NOW PLEASE, IF YOU WILL , take a rest from the SD bashing on this thread. i have stated what i need to state in this matter and NOW IM GOING TO REST,,,and let you all continue with all of YOUR nonsense.
Many Respects,,,,Willow Sword.

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[Silumkid]

Rad, thanks for your welcome. I appreciate it.

I agree that anyone who chooses a martial art based on what they read off a website is simply foolish. However, one thing the internet has managed to do is bring us all together, for good or bad. It's all perception. Unfortunately, there are never any easy answers either.

Willow, I kind of figured this might happen, but oh well....it seems you think that I started posting here to insult Shaolin-Do because I said it "wasn't for me". Somehow, it seems you find this offensive, yet, is that not what you did when you chose SD over others?

I hope I didn't set you off, but it seems to me that instead of wasting your energy making mass generalizations about what people here do and do not have the courage to do, it would be better spent either finding productive conversations here. You seem awfully defensive and I understand that this challenge thing may have you "ready to go" but in future I would appreciate it if you do not include me in mass generalizations. I have fought many a time, and for things that are happening in my world, I may have to do it again soon. It's not something I'm proud of...but sometimes you gotta do what ya gotta do.

Relax dude, it's only the internet.

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[MonkeySlap Too]

I don't think anyone has read this book yet. I really, really think that this is a good idea.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[joedoe]

"FOR THERE IS NOT ONE OF YOU NOT ONE, WHO HAS THE BALLS ,COURAGE OR INTEGRITY TO STAND UP IN FRONT OF ANY OF OUR FACES AND TALK YOUR SH!T"

I think that's a little unfair. Some people aren't in the good ole US of A :D

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

[reemul]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[BeiKongHui]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>To be fair, Cho, no one has disproven SD's version of Tai Chi either [/quote]

In 1956, the Physical Culture and Sports Commission of the People's Republic of China called together a group of nationally renowned martial artists to study ways to further popularize taijiquan among the people. As a result, a simplified set of exercise with 24 forms was created by removing the over- elaborate or repetitive movements from the old forms. Consequently, a fresh impetus was given to the spread of taijiquan throughout the country. Within a few years millions of copies of books and hanging charts introducing simplified taijiquan were published and circulated. During the '70s, over two hundred centers teaching the new set of taijiquan exercise were set up in Beijing alone. Subsequently, 24-Form Taijiquan was translated into Japanese, English, French and other foreign languages as it found its way to Japan, the United States, Canada, Britain, France, Sweden, Singapore, Malaysia and many other countries.

I've seen the SD form and it is the above.

Rad you can find the truth if you really want to. We can give you proof that the sky is blue only by pointing at the sky and saying "It's blue!" but if one refuses to open his eyes and see then he'll never see it for himself.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

[Radhnoti]

I still intend to order the video, but I need a point of comparison. Someone gave a website in an earlier thread, but I have terrible luck with online video.
Also, I'm not sure what an exact match would prove anymore. Have you seen GM Sin claim that the 24 form is ancient? If so, I'd appreciate it if you'd reference that statement for me. SD has several Tai Chi forms, and we know that GM Ie changed several things back in the 40s or 50s. He could have easily added the the new Tai Chi form with an eye toward competing and/or modernization. This may sound like a cop out...since this was something I had worried about myself, but I realized the only people I'd heard shouting that 24 form wasn't ancient and GM Sin claims to only teach ancient things was SD opponents. BKH, I thought you were going to send me a list of schools you'd suggest? Also, did you see my question to you about "Shorim Ryu" on the main board? I'd asked who was teaching it and who broke away...you know, just the political stuff, but also, do they teach the same thing? Please e-mail me or answer in this thread? Thanks.

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

[Radhnoti]

Whoops, just caught your reply but it was a bit vague. Is this a breakaway group? You've SEEN their material? Why wouldn't the club GM Sin founded have followed him over? Why'd they add Ryu to the name? Any info you could add is appreciated.

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Buddha Family Fist : 3 Months
A high level Internal system from the Choi Li Fut system, that allows for cultivation of the chi, and places a premium on balance, leg strength, flexibility, and fluidity.
Students will learn the form.
[/quote]

from the shaolincenter.com website.

Ah...I see SD is teaching Choy Lay Fut now as well. Coincidentally, my sifu's contemporary Liu Si Hung just came out with this form on video...
it is known as Fut Jeong Kuen or "Buddha Palm Fist"....hmmmmmmmmmmm......

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[NorthernMantis]

Man I hope they don't catch on to my Grandmasters video or I'll really get mad. :mad: :mad: :eek: :eek: :eek:

"Always be ready"

[Radhnoti]

LOL
Fu-Pow puts more effort into SD than some practicioners! I didn't even know that there WAS a shaolincenter.com . :D

Um...NorthernMantis, GM Sin's website says he's doing a Mantis book right now. Just thought I'd prepare you...

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

[BeiKongHui]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Um...NorthernMantis, GM Sin's website says he's doing a Mantis book right now. Just thought I'd prepare you... [/quote]

Is that coming out BEFORE or AFTER the movie they've been making about him since the 70's? ;)

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

[illusionfist]

Well i saw the Buddhist Fist form when i met with TWS and i can DEFINITELY say that it is not CLF oriented at all. The Shaolin Do clan says its of Chen style tai chi influence. It's done with an internal flavor and aside from the technique "jin gang dao dui' (often mistranslated as buddha grinds the mortar), there is no other chen influence.

Since i have now seen two versions of this form, i can say that TWS plays it with the flavor for which it was intended. Then again he's a nei jia enthusiast, so this pollutes everything he does ;)

Peace :D

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Well i saw the Buddhist Fist form when i met with TWS and i can DEFINITELY say that it is not CLF oriented at all. [/quote]

I'm not making this up. I pulled that quote directly from the website.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[Fish of Fury]

"ITS A SHAOLIN SCHOOL. not your shaolin school and certainly not the shaolin temple of today's shaolin school(communist wushu)." TWS

what is your (or shaolin do's ) opinion of other traditional shaolin arts/schools.
ie. i've seen other posters here claim that shaolin do considers all other traditional CMA/shaolin schools to be wushu or not as authentic as shaolin do, but i haven't seen a shaolin do guy make that claim directly.

so...what do you think of the authenticity of other styles as compared to SD?

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

[Radhnoti]

Shaolin-Do is a big style, with (some say) 150+ schools. I'd say there are 150+ opinions about other styles. MY instructor thinks that everything has something to add and that the main thing is just to LEARN no matter the source. However, I've met instructors high in the organization who've implied that they feel differently. I put it down to "professional pride" (just start a "Who's style is best" thread on the main forum and see what you get), but I guess it could be considered smug. Especially if you were coming from a different style.
So, to summarize, my instructor's opinion of other schools is high. But several high level SD black belts I've met have a low opinion of other styles.
Now, on to authenticity. By this I assume you mean, "the one most similar to that originally taught at the temple". Grandmaster Su was said to be at the temple. He passed our style on to Grandmaster Ie, who then passed it down to Grandmaster Sin. That's just three generations that SD is removed from the temple. Based on this short, direct lineage the SD student is told that what he is taught is the closest to "authentic" shaolin. Obviously, things have been added to the system. But, yes, I think high level SD students/teachers feel the core of our system (the forms) is THE shaolin system. I, personally, don't really care how authentic or un-authentic it is...as long as it works. I don't think I've heard ANYONE is SD claim that EVERYTHING else is wushu. In fact, an article carried by KFQ told of an older monk at the shaolin temple standing up during a demo and doing a "traditional", not wushu, form which received a standing ovation from the SD students.
Hope this helps. It's kind of difficult to quantify the attitude of numerous people, but I painted as clear a picture as I could...

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

[The Willow Sword]

I cannot speak for those in my organization who feel that Sd is the original shaolin art. that is a Naive statement and makes them look foolish. you are going to find in our school as well as other schools blind followers and you are going to find dedicated practitioners. i do not question the authenticity of other styles,,even shaolin styles. I KNOW that SD is not the only true martial art out there. What seems to nick everyones testicles in this matter is that alot of SD'ers claim that what they do IS THE TRUE ORIGINAL SHAOLIN ART.i will sy that i think that what we do is closer to the original and TRUE principles of what shaolin was originally about. You know with my studies in history and my years as a martial artist i look at what the content of a system is,, and then i cross reference that to what i know to be true about the origins of the system ,,i then make a decision based on this and i come up with my conclusion,,,,simple right? i have said this time and time again that our origins are from Shaolin. (a fighting system) not a dance or performance oriented system(communist wushu). everyone judges the SD school by what they have tseen or taken and they say now that does not look like what i do,i take shaolin and this school does not have the same principles,,,,well kids how many shaolin styles are out there? lots,,and as we have seen with the history of shaolin it is not one unique art or system,,it is a collaboration of many different systems,,,,your shaolin is not going to be the same as my shaolin for obvious reasons,,being the teacher the lineage and the style,and most of all how you intepret the system. i dont go around and say well that school is a fake or a fraud,,and when i compare styles or systems i look for the fighting principles contained with in,,,i have 15 yrs experience so i know what to look for,,,so far what i have seen of most of the northern systems and some south,,is that it is a performance and a dance which is what modern wushu is now,,you try to do any of that stiff in a real fight and you are gonna get plastered on the pavement,,,,these arts are FIGHTING ARTS,,Not fantasy video game or crouching tiger hidden dragon movie martial arts.
i come from a southern CMA background,,where fighting systems prevail,,,our school has roots at fukien temple... ill tell you this A true shaolin monk back in the day did not do a little mantis dance or monkey flip when his life was threatened by a brigand or a robber,,,think of how the dynamics of a fight unfolds itself. a fighting system comprises itself with the principles of clear DIRECT and simple techniques to get the job done,,the rest is just cardio aerobics. be patient kids,,november is not that far off :cool:
Many Respects,Willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[This message was edited by The Willow Sword on 08-22-01 at 08:01 AM.]

[BeiKongHui]

You know what though? Nobody's Shaolin looks like karate but yours now why is that? A unique interpretation of all those principals you think you know so much about? :rolleyes:

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

[Radhnoti]

Hmmm...the boards seem to be messing up for me. When I reposted my response I saw a response from TWS and BKH just after mine, so I deleted my second answer. Now I just see Fish's query again.
Hope the boards straighten up...

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If you operate a school affiliated with Grandmaster Sin Thé, and your school is not listed here, or you have information to add or correct, then please contact Herman Collins. Thanks!

The SDA has organized the country into 14 areas. Although these areas are designated by number, six are named after the original Shaolin temples: Honan, WuTang, Omei San, Kwang Tung, Fukien and Hua Mountain; the seventh will be named in honor of Grandmaster Sin Kwang The's birth place, Bandung.Each region has an Area Vice President appointed by the President.

Not all of the schools listed here are SDA affiliated; the ones that are have been marked with the "SDA hand".

[/quote]

You will be assimilated.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[Silumkid]

Just something to add re: the outward appearance of forms. I'll pick on Willow Sword a little bit here since he was very clear on his opinion.

Many times, what a lot of people fail to realize is that forms are simply another training exercise. Willow, you did mention "knowing what to look for" in other forms and then said you have seen others that resemble dances. One form I will use to argue that point is Tan Tui. From outward appearance, Tan Tui can indeed look like a "showy, non-useful" form. What many do not realize is that Tan Tui is a form that trains the basics...stances, stance transitions, stretch kicks, hand combinations. If you were to perform the form as is in a fight, you would probably lose. But the techniques were made that way in the form to train your attributes and are easily adaptable to "real" combat. In fact, Tan Tui is, from what I have heard, an entire martial system unto itself according to the Muslims who created it.

Judge not a book by it's cover, but rather it's contents.

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[joedoe]

When you say that SD is closer to Shaolin, closer than what?

I don't know about other arts, but I have found that in the art I study the application of the form is not obvious. What may look like a useless movement may actually be a very applicable fighting technique once you know how to unlock the form. I don't know how people can judge a style's effectiveness simply from its forms.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

[The Willow Sword]

BKH: :rolleyes:

Silum Kid: i know about the tan tui steps and you are right they are the BASICS of the stances kicks, stretches,hand combinations etc. And i know about all that showey stuff that "looks"like it is not useful. weve all heard the "story" the shaolin masters would hide the "REAL techniques within the form in order to protect the "REAL"techniques from being stolen from spies and hidden onlookers. you know i think that is a bunch of BS. why do movements that have no purpose in fighting whatso ever? you just proved my point about watching dance and performance wushu. and since i know how to spot the hidden techniques in forms that i have seen. there is a lot of brain transitioning to defilter what you have been taught and then get the "real" technique that the master did not show you. which is crap to me for it is useless to do routines that go nowhere and movements that have no purpose to them but to only entertain and look good to the eye....you know hsingi doesnt look good to watch at all,,in fact its boring,, but you get to see the direct fighting maneuvers and techniques. In a COMBAT FORM,,you are learning the combat applications for you are doing the form as a COMBAT technique,,not a prancy dance. you know how many people out there do dancey forms and think that it helps them in a fight and you see them get floored,,i have all too many times.....the true way that the fighting arts of shaolin present themselves is that of a SURVIVAL and COMBAT ORIENTED FORM. which YES it looks more like a karate form than a dancey prancey performance form....maybe that is why what you guys ,especially BKH,,sees is what you believe to be karate when in fact what tyou are seeing are COMBAT FORMS with the principles of FIGHTING in them,,,they dont look as pretty as your form but we are not interested in looks, robes ,,shaved heads,,grandious halls of incense and mantras,,whereas some of us retain zen buddhist and taoist philosophies,,we are still there to learn how to PROTECT OURSELVES and preserve an ANCIENT SYSTEM that has been tainted by communist
tyranny and made to be an amusement for grandious fantasy based individuals.....and you know,,even if our system was a karate system which it is not,,,i would rather have that than be subjected to flowery,,prancy dancey routines that look good on the movie screen and make the communists more money and that do you no good in real self defense and fighting.
when i saw illusionfist do his hung gar you know what i saw???? a FIGHTING FORM AND a FIGHTING SYSTEM<<< i wonder what REEMUL is going to show when he shows up. hopefully not a rare form of communist wushu that they threw out due to its ineffectiveness to impress the eye. rare northern shaolin kitty kat. hmm i wonder,,,is this form from the northern part of the eastern most corner of the west half of south china?????? :eek:

Many respects,,Willow sword.

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[reemul]

Actually our System left China during the PRC takeover. You would have caught that if you were paying attention. At that time the PRC was trying to destroy the Shaolin systems not preserve them or create a tourist trap capitalizing off the name.(<-read slowly maybe you will comprehend what was said). Any demo I do will be after the fight.

On the subject of Contemporary Wushu, It is no secrete that contemporary Wushu is filled with unpractical maneuvers and acrobatics, but to say they are incapable of fighting is ignorant. Specifically Wuhsu athletes in China are in extreme physical condition and on average could put an ass whoopin on most SD students.

Classical Shaolin kungfu does not look anything like karate. In order to be a good fighter you must posses balance, coordination, flexibility, an understanding of body mechanics, combative application and the ability to improve technique. Shaolin forms consist of all these attributes, and some are simply symbolic.

As for what to expect from me, you claim you know what it is that I do. However if you had spent anytime at our school I would know it, our school is not that big, So it is clear to me that you don't know about our school.

My teacher also asked me to establish that there will be no judges at our meeting, "We are judged only by our peers, those that workout with us..".
also the match is to consist of 2 min rounds or one continuous round of full contact until someone is unable to continue or refuses to continue, as was done in the old day.

[BeiKongHui]

Note how the SD cultist can find a way to justify anything.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

[Radhnoti]

Note how people that don't like what an SD practicioner has to say refers to them as a "cultist".

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

[Fish of Fury]

thanks for the replies.
as i've said before, all i know about SD is what i read on these boards, so i'm not going to judge it.
i'm content that the style i practise now is excellent, and i hope everyone else is equally satisfied with what they do.
i personally spent several years in a dodgy taichi school, but i don't think that makes me a bad person, and i still got some benefit out of my time there...so even IF (i'm not assuming) SD leaves something to be desired, it doesn't mean you can't progress.

from your replies you both seem to be dedicated martial artists, so if you enjoy SD, good luck to you.

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

[Radhnoti]

Thanks Fish.

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

[Shaolindynasty]

note: For all you who don't like shaolin do and keep posting on it, you have succeeded in making it an extremely popular system. Just shut all this up your "fight" isn't for like two months right? So can we have at least one week where this crap isn't at the top? All this arguing isn't going to change anything and the fight isn't going to change anything give it up guys.
(**** I just bumped this to the top, Doh)

New classes New online Catalog
www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[BeiKongHui]

I have no problem with all the attention SD gets because of this thread. Expose the Golden ****roaches to the light long enough and they'll eventually scurry away. If this thread has stopped one person from wasting their time then it was worth it wasn't it?

Rad- I refer to you guys as cultists because like anyone who has based their existance on faith alone you all refuse to answer direct questions or accept evidence that might shatter what you believe is truth. SD people like to talk a good game but when you get right down to it none of you cares about the truth if you did you could find it quite easily. All anyone with an iota of common sense, knowledge of MA's and/or Chinese history has to do is read the hilarous book Sin The' put out. The lies and misinformation is so easy to spot I wonder how anyone that reads it could ever take it seriously. Also, being unfortunate enough to live in the place the whole SD mess came from, I have seen and heard time and time again the sad stories of former SD students. It's a pattern, one which TWS seems to be falling into: 1)Denial of problem 2)Anger (usually accompanied by a challenge or some such BS) 3)Realization 4)Disillusionment 5)Either drops out of MA completely or realizes the need to start all over.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

[Radhnoti]

BKH, I've done my best to answer every question anyone's put up about SD. I've not accepted anything on faith, I've just not accepted everything YOU say on faith and that's what seems to aggrevate you. I've lived in KY my whole life too and I know lots of old time GM Sin students, all of whom (that I've met) enjoyed SD and respect GM Sin.
Golden ****roaches exposed to the light? That was pretty clever, point to you. :)
I have noticed a pattern, one you seem to be falling into: 1) Hear about SD. 2) Learn about SD, think it's all lies. 3) Post all you can about how it's all lies. 4) Lose interest in fighting with SD students. 5) Decide you were wrong and become SD's greatest ally, singing the praises of GM Sin to all who'll listen.
Um...ok, so maybe it's not exactly a PATTERN...but it's as relevant and possible as BKH's "pattern".
:D

[BeiKongHui]

Rad-

Look around carefully.........
Do you see a small midget in a white suit calling out "the plane! the plane!"?

You must because you seem to be marooned on Fantasy Island.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Um...ok, so maybe it's not exactly a PATTERN...but it's as relevant and possible as BKH's "pattern". [/quote]

The only difference being that mine is based in reality where as yours is more of the "I know you are but what am I..." type arguments you seem to use.


I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>. In a COMBAT FORM,,you are learning the combat applications for you are doing the form as a COMBAT technique,,not a prancy dance. you know how many people out there do dancey forms and think that it helps them in a fight and you see them get floored,,i have all too many times.....the true way that the fighting arts of shaolin present themselves is that of a SURVIVAL and COMBAT ORIENTED FORM. which YES it looks more like a karate form than a dancey prancey performance form....maybe that is why what you guys ,especially BKH,,sees is what you believe to be karate when in fact what tyou are seeing are COMBAT FORMS with the principles of FIGHTING in them, [/quote]


In truth there are many CMA techniques who's application is not obvious and you must understand the subtleties of the movement before you can apply them. Karate and Hung Gar are two styles that intitially rely on muscular power. There application is more obvious than say something like Taiji which relies very little on muscular power. Simply because you can "see" the power generation. However, at the higher levels of development most "hard" arts become soft and evasive. And most "soft" arts show there external power. As Dr. Yang Jwing Ming stated in his article on Cyberkwoon : Hard arts are like a staff, Softhard arts are like rattan and soft arts are like a whip. The point is that there is no geniune art which is hard and inflexible.

To me a lot of the Shaolin-do techniques look like they are on the "Staff" end of the spectrum. Even a bit stiffer. This is more indicative of Japanese styles than Chinese styles which usually lie on the "Soft Hard" to "Soft" end of the spectrum. This makes me think that Shaolin-Do has little to do with CMA and a lot to do with JMA.

Peace

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[BeiKongHui]

Combat forms, huh? You just keep telling yourself that. Of course it makes you look like a total dolt to any CMA practioners who read what you have to say but that's your right.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

[Silumkid]

Hi Willow Sword (is that from Fearless Hyena by the way? Great movie!),

Glad we are in agreement somewhat, but I disagree about the movements of forms being "BS"...most schools that do forms that I know of claim the same thing. There is a saying that goes "Every movement has 1,000 uses". In my opinion, this is the first key to true mastery. If you can take one movement and think of even 10 ways to apply it, then you are on the right path. I don't think it is brain transitioning, it is creativity training. And in "live" combat, your ability to adapt can be the difference between a win and a loss.

There is another saying that goes "The basics are the top, the top are the basics". This is another example of correct forms training. If your basics aren't solid, then all the jump spin kicks and neat technique names won't do one any good. To say the practice of Tan Tui is "dancy, useless stuff" is odd to me....it's like saying "I won't do push-ups and pull-ups or weight training because those movements aren't combat related". Your weakest attribute is what often leads to defeat.

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[illusionfist]

I personally know tan tui, and i can honestly say that its not useless. Its a friggin kicking science, hehe :)

Peace :D

[The Willow Sword]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA yes it is in fact..... i didnt really conciously think about that movie when gave myself the name but i do have that movie in my collection,,,,,i now remember the scene where the willow sword challenges jacky" i am the willow sword" jacky;" what? the sh1t sword?"
willow sword"arrrghhhhh" and the fight begins.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
well i m afar from the character in that movie but i can laugh at myself in this instance,,,,,,check out another one of jackys greatest:" Snake and Crane arts of Shaolin" i have the platinum remastered version which elaborates on the fight at the end. scenes were put back in. any way YOU GOT ME heheheheheh.
Many respects to you Silumkid.
The sh... Willow Sword. :p

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[Radhnoti]

BKH, I gave my real life experience as you say you gave yours. I guess we're giving what a scientist might call "anecdotal evidece", and obviously my anecdotes are on the opposite end of the spectrum from yours. Sorry if you were upset by my lighthearted poke at your "sad pattern". Me and Hervé Villechaize thought it was at least a little funny, but he laughs about everything these days.
Fu Pow, I read that article...I assumed Dr. Yang Jwing Ming was only talking about CMA's...and that in his estimation it's alright for a CMA to be "hard as a staff". Note that a staff does bend a bit...and that SD doesn't just consist of hard, straight mostly unflexable motions, but even if it did MY understanding of what he was saying was that there are CMA's like that.
You said, "The point is that there is no geniune art which is hard and inflexible."
So, I suppose I'll disagree with you on that. I may have misread him or you, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Silumkid]

Willow,

Very good! I dig that movie....the training scenes are awesome!

I do have Snake and Crane....another great one! In fact, my Hong Kong DVD collection is what one might call close to outrageous. I had to get rid of a few because my rack can no longer contain them all! I have all of Jet's movies (so far)...the only one I can't find on DVD is Dragon Fight. So if anybody knows where I can find that, shoot me a line! Please?

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> and that in his estimation it's alright for a CMA to be "hard as a staff". [/quote]

I guess the staff I'm thinking of is flexible. I assume the one Dr.Yang is referring to is flexible also because he does CMA. Not the oak Bo staffs used by Karateka.


Let me put in context for you. We have 70 some odd years on this planet. The first 35 of them we have abundant muscular strength. We can tone and shape our muscles to do amazing things. We can make them extremely fast and explosive. For the last 35 our muscle strength deteriorates now matter how hard we train.

Therefore, as far as CMA's go, it is practical to teach younger students techniques which utilize their own musculature to their advantage (this is a bit oversimplified but stay with me)

However, this doesn't work once the practitioner is past a certain age. Therefore, the older practitioner must rely on technique and other non-muscular ways of power generation and speed. Hence, Neijia ie Taiji, Bagua, Hsing-Yi. Neijia is essentially a shortcut to these non-muscular techniques.

Now it is not that other arts don't contain these internal aspects, only that they are not emphasized from day one. In fact, I would venture to say that the ****her you get from the root of CMA the less they are emphasized from day one. So for example, although Choy Lay Fut is not Taiji we rely less on muscular effort than an art like Tae Kwon Do or Karate (aikido excluded of course). At the higher levels of our art we have the Crane Form (Hok Ying Kuen). This form relies very little on muscular effort and more on balance, technique and precision. Once you learn Hok Ying then you can go back thru your forms and "internalize" the rest of your forms, even the ones that intially relied on muscle. (BTW, before I get flamed, Hok Ying is not internal in the same sense that an art like Taiji is, it is simply another way to deal with deteriorating muscle. Also, Hok Ying is even less "internal" than some higher level forms like Sup Ying which I don't know that much about. )

In my opinion Shaolin-Do looks like it uses lots of muscular effort, even in its "internal" forms.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[Radhnoti]

Fu-Pow, great post. I've yet to learn a real "internal" form, so (this time ;) ) I'll not argue a point I have no personal experience with. However, I'd ask this one question...are you basing your opinion on internet video? They had internet video of aikido's founder linked on the main forum the other day...and folks were attacking his form, etc. In my opinion, he'd have been far more impressive in person...and I suspect the same can be said of SD forms.

[reemul]

People have seen SD in person and if anything its
less impressive.

[Radhnoti]

I've met folks that've seen it and been impressed, myself included. I know BKH has seen it in person and is unimpressed, as are you. I won't be surprised if you are slightly more impressed come November...at least with it's combative value. I know that not everyone agrees with me, I hope that you have the wisdom to see that not everyone agrees with you either.

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> However, I'd ask this one question...are you basing your opinion on internet video? They had internet video of aikido's founder linked on the main forum the other day...and folks were attacking his form, etc. In my opinion, he'd have been far more impressive in person...and I suspect the same can be said of SD forms.
[/quote]

Yes, I'm basing my opinion on internet video. As for people attacking the aikido videos I'd say they don't know what they are talking about.

In reality I'm not really attacking Shaolin-Do's martial technique. Because in reality it is Karate. Karate has gotten a bad rap over the years by kung fu guys for various reasons. But the truth is, well done Karate is effective and at higher levels becomes more "internal" ie relies less on muscular strenght more on precision, technique and non-muscular modes of power generation. It can be like the "staff" in terms of the Dr. yang article.

But let's be honest here. The real core of Shaolin-Do technique is Kempo karate. There is nothing wrong with that, very effective. You can reach a high level of martial proficiency in this system. But Shaolin-Do makes outrageous claims about what it is teaching. I study a CMA but I would never make a claim that I was master of 40-50 of the 300 Chinese MAs out there. Yet Shaolin-Do people teach everything from Chen Taiji to Monkey Kung Fu. At most, a person is capable of mastering one, maybe two, styles of kung fu in a life time.
Sin The is probably really great at Kempo. Is he so insecure in his Karate ability that he has to concoct these wild stories? Just call it what it is there is no shame in that.........but the truth is he has created "Shaolin-Do" to make more money. Because that is what is popular now.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[cho]

I got past my parents' divorce. I'm sure all of you can get past your martial art being fake.

[The Willow Sword]

thankyou for the info on your school. i also read the note attached. since i now know your name i will not reveal it to keep your annonymity.
sounds good and i accept the terms.
my challenge still stands but i must apologize to you for my anger and mouth boxing,,i will NOT confront you with anger or spite. i will confront you as an antagonist and a martial artist who wishes to prove to you that my system and school are not what you opinionate it to be.
with that in mind i will see you in november.
Many Respects, Willow Sword.

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[Radhnoti]

Nicely done TWS, and cho I'm sorry about your parents. It's a tough thing, nearly destroyed my cousin when he was 12 years old.
Fu-Pow, to be honest, I wouldn't care if GM Sin came out tomorrow and called SD kempo. You think he lies and have never met him. TWS thinks he's telling the truth and has had tea with him. BKH is certain he's lying...and has been there through a lot of the history. My instructor thinks he's telling the truth and has been there through a lot of the history. Your protestations I take far less seriously than BKH's. Why? You've (as far as I know) never seen a SD form, you've never met a SD instructor. I hope you can understand why I think your critique is silly. You can't judge forms via the internet...well, you can, but not fairly. GM Sin teaches a lot of forms, but people usually concentrate their efforts on one specific system. The Tigers. Tai Chi. Hsing-Yi (sp?). Crane and so on. No students of Sin The' that I've met have claimed mastery of every form.

[HuangKaiVun]

The Willow Sword, what style does reemul practice?

I asked him in the other thread and he directed me here, but I didn't see anything other than the fact that he studies "Shaolin".

[reemul]

:)

[HuangKaiVun]

Thanks, reemul.

Is it related to the style featured in the book that's out in bookstores?

[Fu-Pow]

In your last post you imply that I am somehow unqualified to post on this thread. Sorry, I didn't know there were prerequisites. What style do you do again?

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[Radhnoti]

Shaolin-Do. Gee, thought you knew that.
I stated my opinion that anyone judging a style via realplayer is silly. Is that what you're doing? Or have you actually seen an SD practicioner go through a form? :confused:

[Fu-Pow]

So your saying that in order for me to make comments about Shaolin-Do I have to have seen the forms in person? Gheeesh...

Ok....first of all. Even if I wanted to see Shaolin-Do in person that would be impossible because there is no Shaolin-Do in my area (Pacific Northwest). Secondly, from what I understand Shaolin-Doers never compete in any tournaments with other schools, so I would never see it there.

My comments are based on the following things....

1) Internet Video Clips from Shaolin Center

2) The history, theory, curriculum of Shaolin-Do off the Shaolin-Do website

3) Other posters comments

So I've seen the clips, read the history, read the newsletters, etc.

I think I've seen enough to know that this stuff is ridiculous. Especially when the Chen Taiji form (which I practice) looks nothing like Taiji of any kind.

It seems you are trying to set some sort of prerequisite here in order for me to discuss this topic or discredit my opinion because I have never "experienced" Shaolin-Do. Ok fine...but I still think my comments are valid whether you think so or not. So you can either address my questions and opinions or you can continue to adress the validity of those opinions. Regardless, I will continue to post on Shaolin-Do because I think it is a fraudulent organization.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[Radhnoti]

Look, Fu Pow, obviously it IS my intent to discredit you, as I disagree with you. Just as your intent is to discredit shaolin-do. Don't take it so personally. You're basing your entire opinion of SD on what you've been able to piece together via the internet, I'm just pointing that out.
Obviously, I intend to respond to your comments, informed in my opinion or no.
Like you were worried I was gonna quit posting...ha! ;)

[MonkeySlap Too]

Just saw the old pictures of Sin The' on the Austin SD website.

Tell me that isn't Karate.

You see, THAT is what Fu Pow comes to and questions. Combative CMA does NOT look like Karate. Really.

Just stating my opinion - although no-one really cares....

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Just as your intent is to discredit shaolin-do. [/quote]

My intent is to discredit Shaolin-Do as a SHAOLIN martial art. There may PEOPLE within the Shaolin-Do organization that are very good at karate and for all I know could kick my ass. Karate can be a very effective martial art depending on the practitioner. But my point is that I do a real Shaolin martial art as well as a real Wudang martial art. And Shaolin-Do is "c" none of the above.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[HuangKaiVun]

As long as the SD disciples are HAPPY with their Chen form, it doesn't matter how hard Fu-Pow tries to discredit their style.

If he manages to drive people away from SD, good for him.

He'll have accomplished his goal, and SD won't be infested by those who spend more time worrying about what others think as opposed to TRYING first and COMPLAINING LATER.

[Radhnoti]

If you are saying that Fu-Pow would only discourage those who'd be discouraged later anyway, I think you have a good point Huang...
Fu-Pow, I'll tell you why I disagree with your belief that your definition of "shaolin" is the only valid one.
No one can define shaolin anymore. No one will LET someone else define shaolin, if they have the slightest link to the temple then they feel theirs has the "true" lineage or spirit or ...whatever. Try telling folks that study styles passed down from those fleeing the temple that they can't call their style shaolin anymore. You're getting worked up over a word that has no definition that anyone can agree on.
There exists shaolin kempo karate, shaolin martial arts academy (teaching karate), the international Shaolin Kenpo Assoc. , and I'm sure a million more. You imagine someday you'll be able to "reign in" everyone claiming shaolin lineage and "reclaim" the name for your style? You have as much chance of doing this as GM Sin had to unite all shaolin schools under his banner (if this happened, which I have no reason to doubt). Shaolin had such a HUGE impact on the Eastern world, it's hard to find a style NOT influenced in some way by the temple. If you're ACTUAL problem with SD is the word shaolin, you'll never be satisfied. If SD fell apart tomorrow, you'd still have thousands of schools with the name shaolin and all of them would be doing "shaolin" different than you.
Honest question, what is your definition of shaolin Fu-Pow? You say your shaolin is "real", would everyone on the forum agree with you? I ask these questions respectfully, please don't take offense...I never intentionally attack someone's style or school reputation.

[reemul]

No

[qy]

I just love these threads.

Ok Ok Illusionfist, Sin The says the Buddha fist form you saw is EXTERNAL. It was made a point to me cus the advertisement that was created to promote the class in 1993 or so incorrectly listed this as an internal form, so unless the rules changed again (which they very well may have) this is an external form. As Sin The explaned Internal /External have nothing to do with hard or soft. iternal flavor? By the way how the flip can you learn anything well in 5 hours? (this is a rhetorical question)

Have we addressed that SLD claims the Tiger Crane form as it's OWN? I quess thats OK if they are nice guys doing it?

SLD is going to continue to grow and profit. People are going to keep up the tradition for their own reasons. (for the most part $$) Yes most of the, can we say "original material" is Kenpo like. Yes they have assimilated some other systems, Chen Tai Chi, Hung Ga, Mantis, so on. If you look at the SLD history, the old stuff Sin and his Bro Demo KARATE like stuff. As time went on they got more material from several sources. Now we even have buddhafist forms with internal flavor??

SLD peeps please do not give the regular standard preprogrammed responses.......I know all about it. :rolleyes:

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> No one can define shaolin anymore. No one will LET someone else define shaolin, if they have the slightest link to the temple then they feel theirs has the "true" lineage or spirit or ...whatever. Try telling folks that study styles passed down from those fleeing the temple that they can't call their style shaolin anymore. [/quote]


So , in your opinion, if no one can agree what it is then why do people insist on putting it in front of their school's name?

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[Crimson Phoenix]

Fu pow, it's just because if you cannot see far, you have to climb on the shoulders of someone bigger than you...if you see what I mean...many arts in China tried to trace back their lineage to shaolin in a way or the other, because it was a prestigious name and symbol...nowadays, Shaolin is a name that sells even better...
And if you want my opinion, ANY school claiming they have the original form of any art is dreaming (or trying to make YOU dream, for that matter)...I had a discussion with Shaolindynasty lately (or Shaolintiger, maybe), who had compared just ONE form passed from a single source to different students, and its evolution in these lineages...well, in the end NO ONE had the same exact form...so forget about peeps who say they have an original style, or at least the ones who say their style was practiced exactly like this back in the days...
As for the Chen taiji form, it's quite easy to verify: you go to Chen family village, Chenjia gou in China and you look at the peeps here...if the Chen might not be exactly the same as back the days, you'll get at least the idea of what Chen should be like...
Just some thoughts
Just some thoughts...

[Radhnoti]

qy. Semi-annual? Where've you been hangin' out? It's 24/7 around here. :D Your questions seem to center around specific forms, which I have no experience with...so (for once) I'll keep my mouth shut.
Fu-Pow, I agree with Crimson Phoenix that some do so for the money. However, I also believe some truly believe (and perhaps are) carrying on a sacred trust given them by their sifu. You're assuming that most choose to name their own style, I think most simply carry on a name already chosen by someone else. If you're teaching something your sifu called Shaolin Golden Monkey wouldn't it be disrespectful to rename it? At least that's my take on the situation...

[HuangKaiVun]

To me, it ain't "Shaolin" without the Ch'an.

[Fu-Pow]

Crimson Phoenix

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And if you want my opinion, ANY school claiming they have the original form of any art is dreaming (or trying to make YOU dream, for that matter)...I had a discussion with Shaolindynasty lately (or Shaolintiger, maybe), who had compared just ONE form passed from a single source to different students, and its evolution in these lineages...well, in the end NO ONE had the same exact form.. [/quote]

Well, duh. I see this king of thing in my own style. No one does the forms EXACTLY the same. However, they are MOSTLY the same. The essence of the form remains the same. Furthermore, across southern shaolin styles there are lots of similarities eg Hung Gar, Lau Gar, Choy Lay Fut, Bak Mei, etc, etc. They are all derivatives of Shaolin and you can readily tell this. They are just different interpretations of the original art.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As for the Chen taiji form, it's quite easy to verify: you go to Chen family village, Chenjia gou in China and you look at the peeps here...if the Chen might not be exactly the same as back the days, you'll get at least the idea of what Chen should be like...
[/quote]

Without naming names here. My lineage of Chen Taiji is from one of Chen Fake's students. After the communist revolution had passed he had to go back and reteach the Chen village Taiji because it had been eradicated there. Therefore, I pretty sure I have a source to the "real" Chen Taiji. Where did Sin The learn his Taiji? Although Neijia arts are derivative of Shaolin they developed separately from the temple. So how can he make any claim that it is part of the "original" curriculum?


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You're assuming that most choose to name their own style, I think most simply carry on a name already chosen by someone else. If you're teaching something your sifu called Shaolin Golden Monkey wouldn't it be disrespectful to rename it? At least that's my take on the situation... [/quote]

First of all, are you saying that this "art" has always been know as Shaolin-Do? Are saying this is the original name? Secondly, technically my style of kung fu is Shaolin Hung-Sing Choy Lay Fut Gung Fu. But we rarely include the Shaolin in front of the name. It is not one of major "selling points."

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[Silumkid]

I was looking at some web sites the other day and I found a few different Shaolin-Do sites. Someone had been commenting before about a "Golden ****roach" form...I thought it was a joke, but the particular site I found DID have a "Golden Roaches - 6 forms" listed...??? Does anyone know about this form and what it entails, for my own edification?

Also, a different site had Buddha Fist as "a form related to Tai Chi" which does lead me to believe it is internal. BUT, qy posted that Sin The says it is external....so now I am confused again.

Any clarification would be appreciated.

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Also, a different site had Buddha Fist as "a form related to Tai Chi" which does lead me to believe it is internal. BUT, qy posted that Sin The says it is external....so now I am confused again.

[/quote]

If you look further up the thread I posted a quote of the website. It states that the form is Fut Gar Kuen or Buddha Fist. It also states that it is Choy Lay Fut. As a Shaolin derivative Choy Lay Fut is an "external art" any Chi Gung associated w/ Choy Lay Fut is probably some sort of Iron Shirt chi gung which has Shaolin roots. Fut Gar definitely has nothing to do with Taiji.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[Radhnoti]

Fu-Pow, I'm saying that in his book GM Sin says GM Ie named our system and I've gathered that's the reason we've kept the name and the gis and whatever else.
GM Sin claims to teach basically as shown by GM Ie.

In the pictures of the SD group's last trip to China there's a whole series of the Chen village.
Here's a link to the page:

http://www.shaolincenter.com/ChinaFotos/zhengzhou.htm

Also...there's a monument in the Chen village to Grandmaster Sin (bought by SD students) in front of what is termed "the old training facility". Don't know what that means, or who trained there...but here's the pic:

http://www.shaolincenter.com/ChinaFotos/Chen3_mr.jpg

You say you can always tell a shaolin derived system. What about the ones I mentioned? They claim the name shaolin but don't claim to be CMAs. Where's this gonna lead you Fu-Pow? And what happens when someone...let's say those currently IN the shaolin temple...comes to your school and says, "You don't have the right to the name shaolin. WE are shaolin, stop using our name." :eek:
Would your school surrender the name to the group most (not using the name shaolin) would consider most deserving of the name? I'd hope not, I'm sure you're school feels QUITE qualified to use the name. As does mine.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Fu Pow, I feel you took my post as an attack...I wasn't attacking your chen taiji, I wasnt attacking anything anyway, just stating some criterions you can use to judge wether or not something could be said "legitimate"...I always get warry when a school says "we have the original form" hence my comment...the YOU in my "make YOU dream" part wasn't...you...but I was referring to people in general...anyway, just some clarifications

[Fu-Pow]

Ok...Sin The's been to Chen Village. His students put this monument up, so what? I could go there and do the same thing.

As for the other pictures....they just look like your average tourist pictures. Where are the training pictures? Someone as highly recognized as Sin The would have a banquet of honor and some training while he was there? Not even any pictures of any other masters?....again...where did he learn his Taiji?


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You say you can always tell a shaolin derived system. What about the ones I mentioned? They claim the name shaolin but don't claim to be CMAs. Where's this gonna lead you Fu-Pow? And what happens when someone...let's say those currently IN the shaolin temple...comes to your school and says, "You don't have the right to the name shaolin. WE are shaolin, stop using our name." [/quote]


Your trying to get me to make a statement against kempo or against those other schools. I won't because I don't know that much about them. And secondly, the kempo school at least acknowledges that it is karate ie everyone knows kempo is karate.

Also, these schools also probably don't teach other people forms. I'll bet they don't claim to know Taiji, Hsing Yi, Choy Lay Fut, Hua Quan, etc etc etc.

For your info, and for Sin The's info. "The people that inhabit Shaolin temple" as I am currently calling them aren't "really" Shaolin monks. They are Wushu athletes who are trying to reclaim some of their Chinese heritage. Wushu is Shaolin derived of course, but they just took the flashiest moves and put them together. Nothing wrong with that, but don't think that because Sin The went and got his picture taken with some Wushu athlete that that makes him Shaolin.

True Shaolin exists today because Shaolin monks fled the temples at various times teaching their arts to lay people. These arts grew and changed and developed into the true Shaolin arts we know today these include CLF, Jow Ga, Hung Ga, Bak Mei, Dragon, Wing Chun, Tai Shing Pek Kwar, Hsing-Yi, Taiji Chuan, etc etc etc. Unfortunately for you, Shaolin-Do is not included in that list.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[MonkeySlap Too]

Just look at all the other pictures. I'm particularly fond of the 'mantis' guy.

Oh, and now Sin The' is teaching Shantung Black Tiger too. Good thing there is a book on it!

Fu Pow, there is no point in arguing. The lies will continue until the numbers who beleive them as the truth outnumber everyone else.

I'd love to have been around to ask the 'monks' what they thought. They may do a lot of modern Wushu, but hey, Wushu isn't Karate. It still resembles the things it came out of.

RADHNOTI: Are there are students of ie chang still teaching in Indonesia? Where are they? What do they practice? Do they recognize Sin The'?

I'd like to have some friends over there investigate this, so your help would be appreciated!

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[qy]

Yes Sin The has peers in Indonesia teaching. They don't always have nice things to say though. I have seen vids from the 1992 China Trip put on by the Soards (by the way this was Sin The's first trip to China ever). When they stopped in Indonesia his peers put on a demo. A few of the forms were from Sin The's curriculum, i.e. connecting fist, and another called Lin U Chuan. These forms- Buddha Fist and a "Tai Chi Fan Form", appeared in the US after the demo. By the way none of the folks were waring a Gi, Belt, Patches, or moved in a kenpo like manner. Their movements were fluid, well practiced, and skillful.
Sorry as for these folks names, I don't have a clue. Sin The's brother also teaches, last I heard he is in the US.

[Wongsifu]

can i join in too
shaolin do really sux man xhaolin do is pathetic . man they are so fake they go so low as to but dog boy the cirvus dude as their grandmaster.
Tehy are so pathetic their curriculum involves 400 forms with no application.
OH wait a minute shaolin do is ahead of their time. modern wushu involves more forms with no application
hmmmmmm :D :D :D

I wongsifu shall strike fear into the hearts of trolls and mma guys who **** me off on these forums oh and in real life.

[The Willow Sword]

:rolleyes:

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

[Radhnoti]

Fu-Pow, I never claimed Chen village was where GM Sin learned Tai Chi...he says it was from GM Ie. I put the Chen village picture up for Crimson Phoenix, who mentioned that SD should go to Chen village. I pointed out that the monument was put up by students, so (I think obviously) I wasn't trying to mislead. Either you're misunderstanding my point or changing the subject to avoid my point Fu-Pow. You said that the thing you had against SD, primarily, was that we use the name shaolin. Next you say I'm trying to make you badmouth other systems. No, I'm pointing out that the word shaolin is MANY things to MANY people and not everyone that uses it does what you do. I'm surprised that you feel you have the right to define shaolin, and I'm sure that the schools I pointed out agree with me.
As for the SD attitude about those occupying the Shaolin Temple, if you think they admire the style taught now then you've not been paying attention. TWS and the few SD magazine articles I've read have more than hinted at the disdain the higher SD belts have for the wushu practiced there now. (I have no problem with it...but I'm a nobody. heh) Our history is one of a monk fleeing the temple as well. And, finally, I'm sure that all the systems you've named are glad they're on your "real shaolin" list. Does that mean that when you take over the world, they can use the word shaolin in their title oh supreme ruler? :)
MonkeySlap Too, I have no idea. But I'd love to find out a bit about it.
That's interesting qy. GM Sin's brother has been referenced here several time before, if you search the threads there's even a website. The material taught at his school is almost identical in the lower belts...and they wear a gi and use japanese terms as SD often does...which had made me think that it was something learned from GM Ie. The main difference is that GM Sin's brother's group GREATLY dislikes GM Sin and the false statements they feel he's made. I'd love more info on GM Sin's "peer group" if you can dig it up, you say it was on a video you saw?
Um...thanks for joining in Wongsifu. :cool:

[Crimson Phoenix]

English isn't my mother language...I admire it for its precision...Rad, thanks for the picture, but WHERE in my post did I mention that Shaolin Do should go to Chen village? The term Shaolin-do didn't appear once in my whole post...I was just stating a way to know what "legitimate" (note the brackets, you get the idea) ressembles to...nothing more, nothing less...
Thanks for the pic anyway, I have nothing against Shaolin-do, in fact guys I never heard of it before arriving on this forum, so I have no pre-conceived opinions on that...all I know is that many here (except SD practicionners) seem to be implicating that some aspects of it are fake...I'm just following the arguments trying to stay as neutral as I can, all that I have posted before can apply to every school on general, not SD in particular...some might feel they have a crusade to lead against SD, I don't...
All that I can say is that I could go to Chen village or Shaolin, and get a nice pic with guys from there...if I pull out enough money, I could even get my name or some certificates in there...but that wouldn't make me an expert, just a liar...it has happened before, peeps paid enough to appear on one of Dong Hai Chuan's tombstones (he had several during along the years, and each time they'd renovate or change one, new names would pop out)...all of this to say that to me pictures prove nothing, or very little...

[Ground Dragon]

I'm a student of one of Master Hiang's (Sin's brother) senior students as well as Master Hiang. I think most stuff has been covered in previous threads, so it's best to do searches for that info. If anyone has any questions about my teachers, what we do or the history I'd be glad to answer them via email to the best of my ability.
I would be interested in hearing more about this group still practicing in Indonesia. I had heard the group had splintered over the years due to the head instructors passing away, but I'm sure some of the same material still exists over there. The school was there long enough there should be some high level practitioners around. I might do some checking on this myself

[Radhnoti]

Grr? Crimson Phoenix, sorry if I misunderstood you...or if you misunderstood me. I didn't put the pictures up to "prove" anything, you mentioned the Chen village and I put up the link thinking you'd appreciate it. End of story.
Ground Dragon, if you come up with anything would you mind sharing it with the forum? Thanks.

[KC Elbows]

Rad, your timing for posting that pic of the stone in chen village, perhaps inadvertantly, put it in a context of validating sin the's legitemacy in chen style tai chi. You seem to be putting out evidence, then, when that evidence is inadequate, saying that you didn't intend for that evidence to be part of your argument, but instad saying you put it out for "those who are interested".

You need to either:
1) Choose evidence that is less refuttable,

OR

2) Admit when you have no info to work with.

Painting techniques are worldwide, but only an idiot calls a Dali a Pollock.

No offense to either Dali or Pollock, who I'm sure had no affiliation with SD, though having had the same time at the temple as Sin The, both painters undoubtedly had their own sects of shaolin.

Oh ****. Did I flame?

[Radhnoti]

I indicated that the monument was puchased by GM Sin's students in the post, I can't change that so feel free to double check me. If I'd meant the monument to be misconstrued as "proof" I don't imagine I'd have mentioned that.
1. I didn't submit any "evidence", sometimes I throw things out on the board that interest me. Usually I do so on the main forum...I did research for about an hour the other day on dao's and posted the results. This time Crimson Phoenix's post reminded me of the pictures posted by the SD students on their visit to Chen village.
Sorry for the confusion. If I ever present "evidence" I'll label it as such, but don't hold your breath as I've not run across anything other than opinion so far.
2. I admit that I have no info beyond my own experiences (or what others say) to work with. But it seems that neither does anyone else. K C Elbows, did you MEAN to imply that the only way to learn a shaolin system would be to go to the Shaolin Temple? Many on this forum seem to disagree, but thanks for your input.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Okie...thanks Rad...the pic is quite huge though...

[bratok304]

So, when is this... CHALLENGE? I want to hear what happens... and btw, november approches....

your "honorable" warrior.... :rolleyes:

[Braden]

Seriously guys... I didn't read through this whole ridiculous thread, so I'm sure I missed something.

But is this still gonna happen?

If so, anyone taking bets? ;)

[Sharky]

if you don't film it, you are all really stupid.

reemul, he has 15 years experience, how much do you have?

I agree with everything fu pow has said.

================================================== ==========================

"What you wan' cry fo? You know that my hammer is heavy and it got kick like tae kwon do, now you gwarn die slow... I'ma show you how to stretch a m0ther****er if you wanna watch tae bo"

[reemul]

The main writer/director of an inde film we were involved with has agreed to film it.

[KC Elbows]

Would it really be interesting to watch? I just don't see it. I checked out Lexington's SD school when I was out there, and I wasn't impressed. I've seen worse, hell, I've even practiced with worse(years ago), but still, not a group that should take on temple monks. Even if the monks know modern wushu, that's not all they know, and anyone who deludes themselves into thinking that the temple would challenge using anything but a fighting monk is only setting themselves up for a beating.

PRC says "Destroy the SD fighter or else!"

Sin The says "Destroy the monk with your traditional Tae Kwon Do...er...traditional shaolin kung fu! No really! You can do it! Iron head, schmiron Head! Remember, we've got a plaque, over there! Does HE have a plaque over there, NO! I'll bet he doesn't have half as many schools as me."

4 seconds entertainment tops. Seems like a waste of time really. The Shaolin temple should leave lame American schools to the good American schools. Aren't there any mcdojos in China?

[mortal]

I have to admit the monks(any of them) are so fast and powerful. It really is foolish to think any of us mere mortals could defeat them.lol Any one who thinks that has never seen them do anything in real life. If they did, and they still thought that they would have a chance, humbling themselves is in order. It would just be more of a question of how many micro seconds it would take to beat any of us. These guys can kick and punch for hours with tons of energy. How can any of us match that unless we trained hard for twenty years. Oh and started when we were 6. :D