Private Sessions…

[Suntzu]

what's the going fair market rate for a one-on-on session these days??

[David Jamieson]

It depends on what you're offering.

If the rate includes facilities and equipment, then a regular gym type membership personal trainer fee is not out of range.

IE: 60 - 120 an HR (cdn)

If you are "in the park", then charge what the student can afford.

Otherwise, charge what you feel the market will bear. :D

It's only money and it doesn't last as long as the lessons.

cheers

[Oso]

just a second to KL's commentary.

although, I do know a soke who charges $120/half hour to discourage privates, his words.

[carly]

were charging $65, $50, and $35 per hour, and all three were pretty much unqualified to teach in my opinion. I don't know how many takers/students they had

[PQS]

my instructor charges £15 an hour
if you catch him at his "drop in" sessions you can pay £20 for 2 hours
regards
Peter

[Waidan]

I pay $30/hr, either in the classroom or (weather permitting) in the park.

[SevenStar]

who on this wacked out planet charges that much?? As popular as Royce is, he only charges $20 an hour. Dr. Yang Jwing Ming, sifu francis fong and adjarn chai sirusute charge about the same. Brazilian Top Team member Adriano Lucio trained us for a month and he only charged $120 (Admittedly, he gave us a HUGE discount though, as he's pretty close to some of us) I don't think there is anyone I'd pay 65 an hour or more to see. A friend of mine sponsors workshops evey year, and Hop Gar grandmaster Ku Chi Wai, Wah Lun Syn, An Tien Rong and various other serious CMA guys hold workshops there, but they don't even charge that much.

[joedoe]

Royce Gracie only charges $20/hr? Wow

[SevenStar]

shocking, ain't it? but yeah, a two day seminar from him is $160, which is 4 hours of training per day. If you want him to, he'll do a third day also for the same price.

[David]

7*, seminars aren't usually private!

;)

-David

[David Jamieson]

I've actually been thinking about this question over the last couple of years.

How much do each of us value the arts we learn, be it martial or otherwise.

Granted, if you find a gifted student you will want to give that person a break according to what they can afford as an opportunity of passing the information.

But, why not put a higher value on martial arts training? Why not raise it up to a level where it has a dollar value associated with it in the general perception?

Is it so bad? I mean, here in the west, everything has a dollar value associated with it. people regularly pay 70$ a month plus extra fees to learn how to roll on a ball!

Or how to lift, or how to run, etc etc. Does not martial arts have as much value as these forms of training? If not more?

In my opinion, Martial arts training has far more value than these types of training which people are willing to pay a lot of money for.

cheers

[Budokan]

Wow, those are really expensive prices! But I'm not surprised about the $70 an hour charge for rolling on a ball. That exercise is marketed towards women and they'll usually pay almost anything for the ephemeral chance of restoring their lost youth or trying to capture that slim, fit look: tae bo, electric shocks to the face, Botox treatments, ball rolling, etc. :rolleyes:

What suckers. Not at all like men who might spend thousands of dollars on guns, camouflage, boots, knife, and other special equipment to sit in the freezing cold all morning in order to shoot a turkey and then feel like they've accomplished something important in the grand scheme of things.

Come to think of it, ball rolling and tae bo makes a heck of a lot more sense after all...

[Robinf]

I agree with Kung Lek. While I think everything is overpriced, really what value do you put on learning something like a martial art, one-on-one with a capable instructor? I believe martial arts is far more entailed in its instruction than weight training or running, and it's a bit more life-useful and therefore should take on a higher dollar value.

That said, we should be careful not to take advantage of the situation like gas prices right now in the U.S.. We shouldn't gouge (spelling?), but we should have a good asking price.

[Oso]

If the teacher/sifu/instructor is qualified then they should get something in the same range as any other professional. Plumbers, Electricians, HVAC guys will charge you 50-75 an hour. Graphic Design will run you 35-60 an hour.

I think that's good for one on one situations. Cost of living in different markets is always a factor in any situation.

Seminars are different. I've always thought that there was a % cut between the school owner and the guest sifu brought in for the seminar. Over the years I've seen seminar prices go through the roof. Personally, I saw GM Presas over double his asking price for seminars over a 5 year period.

If a seminar costs much more than about $10 an hour to attend then that person should be pretty durn special, imo.

[CD Lee]

Our Sifus charge 50/hr.

Guys, this is NOT expensive for privates. NO way is 50/hr expensive. I taught music lessons for years for 30/hr 15 years ago. Good tennis lessons cost 50/hr or more, and golf at least that much or more.

You are buying a persons undivided attention and TIME. This person takes an entire hour to look at you, condider YOUR strengths and weakness, and can TAILOR a response that is geared specifically to YOU. Then in addition, you are also buying thier expertise. If they are not good, get somebody else. But their time is well worth the money.

You are buying something that you get to keep for a lifetime. A good date costs 50.00 or more.

Who else is going to take an hour for the sole purpose of making you as good as you can possibly be, given your mental and physical abilities. Who cares that much about you, except you? That is why we pay for it. And it is worth it. You are worth it.

Remember, you are not really trading money for private lessons, you are trading whatever it is you did to get that money, for the lessons. Time for time. Think of it that way.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by SevenStar
shocking, ain't it? but yeah, a two day seminar from him is $160, which is 4 hours of training per day. If you want him to, he'll do a third day also for the same price.

Dude, that's not a private class. How much would Royce charge for a private session, just you and him, for an hour? The way the Gracies market and merchandise, I reckon it would be way more than anything else mentioned yet in this thread.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by David
7*, seminars aren't usually private!

;)

-David

I was reading like serpent yesterday - that explains my confusion. :D Even still though, Adriano did private sessions for 25. I can't remember how much Royce's was, as I didn't set up one.

[fa_jing]

My sifu charges 35 an hour for private or semi-private lessons (1 other student say 50% of the time), and if you do a long-term deal it goes down to $220 for 8 hours in a month. I found it a great way to train and learn, without a big time commitment for going to class and no ranks, belts, seniors, class discipline and other bullcrap that has nothing to do with MA. He spars you too. Half of that money goes to the kwoon owner. You get some of your training sessions on video or CD for only 15 bucks. This is for one of the best MA teachers in Chicago - he does it for the love more so than the dough.

[apoweyn]

Hell, you buy me a jar of marmite and some crackers, I'll teach you anything I know.


Stuart B.

[Oso]

ok, finally assuaged, my curiosity about Marmite.

not really sure what to think but if it's a beer byproduct it has to be ok.



http://www.gty.org/~phil/marmite.htm

[apoweyn]

if by 'okay' you mean 'my friends might eat it on a dare', then yes, it's okay.

:)

i love the stuff personally. everyone else thinks it's awful. which means i don't have to share it.

yay marmite.


stuart b.

[Oso]

I'm gonna have to try and find some. I think I've seen it in the local health food store but just figured it was some kind of hippie cr ap. I like wierd stuff. My fav sandwhich is PB/mayo/onion, a big thick slice of onion between two thick layers of PB and mayo.

mmmm,mmmmm.

besides, marmite sounds perfect for camping trips if it doesn't spoil but I'd hate to see the sodium content.

[apoweyn]

Wow. Just wow.

Don't worry. Bacteria is afraid of Marmite.

[Oso]

i love the stuff personally. everyone else thinks it's awful. which means i don't have to share it.

yay marmite.


your mom must have been the one to put it on her nipples:D

(see website posted above)

other fun marmite sites

http://www.marmite.com/marmite/marmite.html

(it was fun to play with the toaster)

http://www.ilovemarmite.co.uk/

http://www.ihatemarmite.co.uk/


I think it's some sort of British conspiracy;)

[apoweyn]

your mom must have been the one to put it on her nipples

There's a thought that will haunt my sleeping hours for years to come.

[Oso]

of, course, leave it to the british to find a use for the scum left after brewing:)


don't knock that sandwhich till you try it. A large, sweet Vidalia onion is best.

[apoweyn]

of, course, leave it to the british to find a use for the scum left after brewing

trust the british to be the scum left after brewing. :)

[Oso]

sorry dude. that first website talked about some british mothers doing that:confused: :confused:

[apoweyn]

Sorry?! Never apologize for a good laugh. :)

(Monthly contributions to my therapy bills will suffice.)


Stuart B.

[KC Elbows]

I am totally opposed to the concept of associating drive with how much a student will pay for lessons.

I've seen that method at work, all it ensures is that rich driven people will learn more than poor driven people.

I've got a gifted classmate who helps support his family(not wife and kids, but parents and siblings). He could never afford privates. Never. But he's got amazing potential. Under our system, he learns at his level and the art flourishes. Under the 'this teaching is worth this', he doesn't learn at his level of capability and the art becomes a haven for the mediocre but affluent.

If the merit of the learning is so high, then the responsibility to teach it is even higher.

[Oso]

HEY ! We're talking about a vegetarian food supplement here !!

:D

[Oso]

KC, I think any sifu of merit will always forego the money for a good student who wants to learn. I don't even want to think about the months I couldn't pay my sifu.

Still, you have to set some system of fees up, if only to break them when you need to.

I don't think you can say "All my time is yours, free" to every student. Set up a reasonable fee and break your own rule when needed.

[KC Elbows]

See, we just teach everyone free, so I don't even have to deal with this. However, at schools I went to that dealt with pay, the stable ones had reasonable fees for privates, and only so many openings.

[Oso]

where do I sign up???

I just got sticker shock at the jujutsu school I just started going to. $75/month. I haven't paid for lessons since I recieved my black sash in 95. Course, I was teaching 6-8 hours of classes for my sifu.

But, this school is huge, 2 training decks, weight room, showers, jacuzzi. Verrry nice. The cost was about what I expected and the training is good.

I'll still argue that a sifu's time is worth at least the same as a plumber/electrician/hvac technicians time. And most Sifu's will have put more time into learning what they know vs. either one of those tradesmen.

but, I see your point and in a perfect world would agree.

the old school way of feeding and taking care of your sifu, up to building and maintaining his house/school is a very nice idea.

[KC Elbows]

Your average sifu has nowhere near the hands on experience of a plumber, but is rarer, unless they do wing chun.:D

[Serpent]

If you want your sifu to be available and motivated to teach you his art, then he shouldn't have to fit his time around working a 60 hour week just to pay his mortgage. If he can concentrate on teaching and his bills are paid, you'll get a lot more from him.

Of course, if he's driving a solid gold merc and living in a mansion then he's probably abusing that situation.

[jon]

I know of a few sifus who make a *very* good living off teaching.
Sadly they all have to teach in a somewhat similar fashion to make ends meet however. This is not to say that you wont get the goods if you hang around but you are *bound* to spend a couple of years learning some *very* made for the masses type of stuff.

Here is how one sifu i know of manages to make a solid living.

For a start he has good creditials, student of a good sifu and easily traceable linage.

Secondly he runs a gym in a *prime* location right in Sydneys Chinatown. Its well equiped with various training apparatus and has been nicely decorated to represent what go's on there.

Thirdly he teachs full time courses with a govt accreditation thanks to mixing his curriculum with a buisness course. Hence you learn to teach kung fu and manage your buisness at the end you come out of this with both teaching accredition and also govt accredition in small buisness.
The students in this course can also apply for Austudy (Australias student benifit system) to help with finacial needs during there study.

Now heres the catch, when you graduate you can of course teach under his name and pay him a percentage of your profits. Hence he is quite litteraly franchising his opperation.

The students who do this course also teach many of the classes at the regular gym to gain experience (read you will probarly be training under a student if you study at there major gym).

The course is also structured in a very clear cut and concise mannor so that you can clearly see what you will be learning when. Its also obviously mind blowingly expensive and a good percentage of the time is actualy spent in regular classes with only the odd few under the 'supervision' of the actual master.

All in all the system works well and the guy manages a popular school making great money.
I will however say you can also clearly see that this is basicaly using his art as a buisness tool. This doesnt mean he cant teach a few close students well but it does tend to insure that the overall level of quality between various schools and students is uniformly fairly low.


lol the trick is to be enterprising, my sifu has good contacts with the local govt and we make most of our money as a school by doing performances of kung fu and lion dance for various functions.

[dezhen2001]

think i know who u mean dude :D

dawood

[Serpent]

And for anyone that's still wondering:

Jim Fung.

Right?

[joedoe]

Sounds about right.

I heard William Cheung runs a similar operation though. I could be wrong.

[jon]

Darn i went to such effort to not name names, how on earth did you ever guess.

Seriously though, ever been down there? Its kinda funny and scary at the same time.

[Serpent]

It's one of the places I first checked out when I moved to Sydney. To be honest, I have to say that I was disgusted. I spoke to Fung and all I was doing was enquiring about classes. As soon as he heard my accent he went on and on about how he could get me a student visa to extend my stay, get me Austudy (which was BS, cos overseas students can't get it) and how he'd have me trained up as an instructor in two years and I could have my own school right after that.

Imagine if I'd never had any previous experience?! A school that's a belt factory is bad enough, but an instructor factory!? It's all about the $$$'s with him and the level of students and instructors is terrible.

I hate to bad mouth any school really, but I was horrified by that place. I've swung by numerous times since (I often check out other schools, just to see what's what) and if anything, his place is getting worse instead of better.

A real shame.

[joedoe]

If you wanna hear a funny story relating to Fung, PM me :)

[Serpent]

Joe, your pm box is full.

[Oso]

cuz everyone wants to hear the funny story.

[joedoe]

Should be right now.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
Your average sifu has nowhere near the hands on experience of a plumber, but is rarer, unless they do wing chun.:D

And then they just argue about politics.

[KC Elbows]

My teacher teaches three to five 3 1/2 hour classes a week(officially they're 3 hour, but they never go that short), to the same group of us, and does not make a dime off of it. Hell, we drop by his home all the time just for mini sparring sessions and stuff. And the classes are going up to 4 hours this spring.

Money is not what prevents good instruction.

As for the instructor factories, they're sickening. Not because they make a distintion between more serious students and hobbyists, but because, more often than not, they make no such distinction. Students with a serious interest have their time wasted for the same training they can get elsewhere, and by the time they get okay training, their time is wasted helping teach others the way they were taught.

I'm not against the business end of it, but having once had a regular sparring partner who was a brick layer, I think other jobs are underrated. Brick layer fist is not to be underrated.

I'd also like to point out that many of the great practitioners who came over to the west in recent decades are engineers, doctors, and other professional trades. Yet they managed to teach well, despite their jobs.