Wing Chun Fighting Events??

[Phil Redmond]

I was wondering what people thought about having WCK fighting competitions. They could be held in various locations with or without protective gear. The purpose of such events would be to better our fighting skills using WCK principles. I say this because we don't normally fair well in MMA competitions. The WCK people I personally have seen fight in MMA competitions were not good representatives of our art. Those who will say that competitions do not compare with fighting in real situations are correct but it's the closest way I know to improve your timing, focus, heart, etc. under pressure.
These events should be non political...if that's possible for us... and we could all learn how to apply our techniques under pressure. Any thoughts, comments, ideas?
Phil

[KenWingJitsu]

I think my thoughts on this should be well known by now lol.

Unless I am mistaken, our Sifu Emin is attempting to create a tournament with this very goal in mind & I'm all up for it.

If this became common in WC/WT, then this system will fast become one of @sskickers.

[t_niehoff]

Phil,

I think they are a great idea, and a necessity to develop real skill, as long as the participants focus on taking part with the idea of improving their WCK skills -- and not focus simply on winning or proving an agenda (which tends to promote bad WCK -- btw, bad WCK IME can be effective but for reasons other that WCK).

PR wrote: The WCK people I personally have seen fight in MMA competitions were not good representatives of our art.

We should IMO give them credit for putting their @sses on the line. It's easy to sit back and complain about their skills from behind our keyboards. In the end, they demonstrated to us all that it is not the alleged "superiority"of our fighting method but what we, as indviduals, bring to the table that matters. TN

Terence

[hunt1]

And this competition would prove what? My WC is better than your WC etc?

There are many san shao tournements all across the county all year round. Every Sifu or student that thinks we have or feels there is something to prove should be entering these events.

A WC Sifu beating Cung Le for example would say much more about WC than a student of WC Sifu A beating a student of WC Sifu B unless the agenda is to prove your version (general your not directed at anyone) of WC is the best version.

[t_niehoff]

hunt1 wrote:

And this competition would prove what? My WC is better than your WC etc? H1

This illustrates what I was getting at -- if you go about it as a "competition" then IMO you are missing the point. How do boxers learn to box? By boxing. Not by hitting the bag or focus mitts or shadow boxing or skipping rope (all good things to make one better at boxing). Same with wrestling -- you learn by getting out on the mat and wrestling against real resistance. We need that in WCK. Forms, drills, etc. are all necessary and good, but won't take you to funtionality. The point is to develop yourself and your skills. TN

There are many san shao tournements all across the county all year round. Every Sifu or student that thinks we have or feels there is something to prove should be entering these events. H1

IMHO I think we should all "feel they have something to prove". How do you know what your skills really are if you don't face skilled, resisting opponents? TN

Terence

[Phil Redmond]

Ok, How about WC training camps. We could help each other out with training methods and "friendly" matches under supervision of other WCK bros/sisters so that any ego flair ups would be not be allowed. I think we all could gain from this regardless of our past lineage problems. Some of us have full contact experience, some have grappling experience, etc. Everyone would have some input to better our WC. I think we all could use some grappling skills. I know I could. "Each one teach one"
Phil

[yuanfen]

I think Phil's second idea of training camps independent of lineage
and properly supervised is worth some thought.

The problem with "real" fighting in the US is that there are some good venues for such real fighting skill experiments in urban areas including Detroit, Phoenix, Watts and some bikers gatherings. Thats beyond bjj, san sou and other sporting events. You would need a good bail bondsman and a good lawyer among several other significant things. The rest are varying degrees of sports or simulation.

And lets face it- most of all this is useless against a tiny puny man or woman who knows how to use a gun or a knife- well.

Our "realism" discussions seem to get silly sometimes. Lets face it we cant prove our skills on an internet list.But we can engage in silly macho one up manship (leaving women out on purpose) Its far more fruitful
on the net to constructively compare and discuss what we do- in different situations under pressure, or in the applications or in chi sao or in the forms.

[dbulmer]

And you could all invite Red5Angel - now that would be interesting!

Sorry, chaps couldn't resist !

[desertwingchun2]

Phil - These could be like the WC gatherings that happen from time to time with a different focus. Would the primary focus be on finding a few WC guys to send to NHB MMA type events? If so, I'm envisioning some kind of regional set up. After a few meetings there would definetly be some "candidates" to consider sending to NHB MMA type events. As far as politics go everyone is just a WC guy plain and simple. Im sure some would participate and others wouldn't. And as for who's WC is better it's simple - Those that are successful are and those that aren't aren't. No better and no worse, only win or lose.

There would be a lot of work to go into something like this. Coordination of events, logistics, legal issues, etc ... However, it's definetly an interesting topic to discuss.

-David

[Phil Redmond]

That's a good idea.
Terence was putting something together like that in St. Louis I think it was. But at the time I was a little suspicious as to the intent. After he explained it I could see the benefit of it.

Terence can you give a little input as to how or if it would work?
Phil

[anerlich]

WC-only competitions have limited value IMO. If you want fighting experience, be it striking only, MMA, grappling, whatever, most decent-sized cities have some sort of circuit.

And the idea of cross-organisation WC forming a united front against the others is laughable - I can think of at least ten other sifus, coaches or senseis my Sifu would amalgamate with before he'd buddy up to the friendliest other WC organisation - hell, we've already joined the Machado BJJ organisation. I could almost see Dubya and Saddam buddying up before WC harmony ever happened.

Just look at the threads on "WC techniques in MMA comps" and the latest HFY-against-the-world spewfest that Sandman rightly closed shortly before that and then ask yourself if that would ever happen. Too many people with vested interests that would evaporate were that ever to happen.

If the WC people that have gone in MMA comps are "not good representatives of our art", then why do not the (too) large number of self-proclaimed WC badasses enter and right that wrong? I've got more respect for them than for their critics.

KWJ at 3-0 in MMA is a reasonable WC/T rep, is he not? You are being a bit unkind.

Training camps are good. My first instructor, who does an eclectic style of KF, has run one annually since the early 1980's. I've been to most of them. He usually gets several KF styles, some karate guys, hapkido, etc. and everyone mixes, compares techniques, trains, has fun. He's always been about sharing and welcoming students of other styles. He taught me grappling and groundfighting in 1977.

IMHO he's always been about 25 years ahead of his time.

The problem with a WC only version of such a camp would be determining whose lineage was the most pure and who was the smaller number of inheritance steps from Leung Jan so that that person could be in charge and tell everyone else what to do. (I'm only half kidding, unfortunately).

[anerlich]

dbulmer,

actually, I miss red5angel. He was fun. I think he was a bit smarter than he let on, too.

[desertwingchun2]

Anerlich - Like I said its worth talking about. You have your opinions and others have theirs.

As for"KWJ at 3-0 in MMA is a reasonable WC/T rep, is he not?
I had no idea of his accomplishments. It sounds like in the MMA circle he's done good for himself and WC. By no means was I trying to slight him or anyone else.

Just look at the threads on "WC techniques in MMA comps" and the latest HFY-against-the-world spewfest ...

It wasn't HFY against the world by any means but lets not stray.

... then ask yourself if that would ever happen.

Like I said in my original post some would participate and others wouldn't. And besides we're just talking about it.

-David

[t_niehoff]

anerlich wrote:

WC-only competitions have limited value IMO. If you want fighting experience, be it striking only, MMA, grappling, whatever, most decent-sized cities have some sort of circuit. AN

I agree to a point. Obviously gaining the most varied experience is to one's advantage. However, there is also much value to fighting with folks in one's own method -- bjj'ers do it, wrestlers do it, etc. One advantage is that it is easier to examine, "critique"and adjust one's performance. TN

---------------

Phil Redmond wrote: Terence was putting something together like that in St. Louis I think it was. But at the time I was a little suspicious as to the intent. After he explained it I could see the benefit of it. . . Terence can you give a little input as to how or if it would work?

I'm thinking of having another one this summer -- some folks have expressed interest in coming. We had a smaller version this past year to feel out any problems. The most important part I found was keeping egos in check, and making certain everyone focused on getting experience (dealing with real intensity) and not winning (which is so easy to do). One thing that we thought would help was confidentiality: folks came for the experience, not to have videos of themselves appear on the net or folks talking about (how "good or bad") their performance (it's interesting I had many, many requests to come and watch but not participate!). TN

Terence

[anerlich]

"As for"KWJ at 3-0 in MMA is a reasonable WC/T rep, is he not?
I had no idea of his accomplishments. It sounds like in the MMA circle he's done good for himself and WC. By no means was I trying to slight him or anyone else. "

You didn't even say it, Phil Redmond did. Jeez, talk about paranoid :)

"One advantage is that it is easier to examine, "critique"and adjust one's performance."

Your comment is correct. However in WC, even boxing, there are still sgnificant differences, e.g. European defence, peekaboo, etc. etc. Hamed does boxing, but it's a lot different from just about everyone else's boxing.

[desertwingchun2]

Anerlich - My bad. :o now back to the discussion .... :)

[dbulmer]

Anerlich,
I miss R5A too.

Generally I think Anerlich is right but I think you'd need some filtering of people - (ie invitation only which I know in itself could be controversial). I also think it depends on the level of the participants - for example if I were up against the majority of the posters on this thread I'd learn little because I don't yet know the right questions to think about, never mind ask and put into practice.

Likewise, the skilled need to feel confident that ego is left out of it and that the skill level is being taxed equitably. I don't see lineage being a problem if politics is left outside the venue but you need to be sure that the participants are not die hard lineage advocates and this is why I think being selective about who takes part is vital.

If I was at the same skill level as some of you guys I'd be a whole lot more enthusiastic than I sound writing this post so forgive my cynicism.

[captain]

Another reason why this would be a good idea,is because
many people remain faceless entities on the net.you put
a face to the post-name,or even phone call,and you are more
likely to be civil and treat the person as an actual human.

wing chun really does need something.this board is really
about questioning.what was wck like in the begining,how
should wck answer certain grey areas now?it seems,as a
style,almost rudderless.there are other arts where the
unity and organization is vastly superior to wck.perhaps not
the art,per se,but for sure the ground roots.wck needs a
huge get together,discuss,swap stories/techniques/passion.

and then,from there,the energy [70's sounding,but true] will
drip through back into the community [kwoons] at large.there
may even come a day when i meet terrybaby the lawyer,and buy
him a beer.[light brew].

we have all this talent on this board.rene,terry,herr hoffmann,
redmond,roselando [clarissian],and many others,it is a great
shame and pity not to get something up and running.such
resources,and now is the time to do it.

[Merryprankster]

Jeesh,

So much "but this and this and this," and WAY too much concern over "how do we ensure egos aren't involved?" You don't, if it's a competition. You DEAL with it. The ones with big egos won't come back if they don't win, for the most part, anyway. But who CARES?!

Here's what you do: You get a promoter (just somebody who can get a place and the mats or floor tape or rings or whatever). You set some rules and advertise it in the WC/WT/VT community. This ensures circulation in the community that YOU want to show up. Heck, advertise it everywhere if you want, but emphasize your target market--I don't see grappler's quest pushing their flyers on TKD schools...

Then you hold the tournament, and you don't worry about who gets hurt feelings or what egos are bruised or anything else, you just go do it. Don't hold it in BFE--hold it somewhere there's a bunch of WC/WT/VT because MOST of your competitors are going to be local. You can call it whatever the heck you want, "The Grand Poobah Intergalactic Wing Chun Memorial Classic," or something. Offer medals. Trophies look cheap.

The point is, stop worrying about the egos, the lineages, and people who get into ****ing contests. There's no way to ensure this doesn't happen. Bad sports are bad sports and if somebody packs their team up because they don't like a call, there's nothing anybody can do about it. If somebody gets in a ****ing contest over Sifu says or a Lineage War, who gives a swut? An ******* is an ******* is an *******. The ones who lose won't come back. The ones who win, you tolerate, because it's a TOURNAMENT, not a dinner party, and as the tournament grows in time, they usually wind up getting stomped anyway.

[Phil Redmond]

This is what I said;
"The WCK people I personally have seen fight in MMA competitions were not good representatives of our art." Which is a true statement from what I personally have seen.
I based that on the "few" MMA fights I have seen with reps from WCK. Of course I give them credit for trying. I know the feelin as I also fought in full contact events and in basements in Chinatown NYC. I would just like to see WC techniques used in all out matches. I have no problem with associating with people from other lineages/schools. When I was younger yeah maybe, but not now. I have good friends in other lineages. Training with WC only and other MAs both have advantages. Let's get "our" s**t together first, then go out to the world to show what can do.
Phil

[desertwingchun2]

I nominate MP for any vacant position on the organisation commitee for "The Grand Poobah Intergalactic Wing Chun Memorial Classic".

Anybody second the motion? :D

-David

[old jong]

I second the motion!

[anerlich]

Let's get "our" s**t together first, then go out to the world to show what can do.

Idon't see why this will help or should be necessary. Most of the better MMA fighters come from reasonably small, very focused organisations and gyms - Carlson Gracie, BTT, Takada Dojo, Lions' Den, Miletich, Hammer House come to mind.

With all the Grandmasters (and recently, Great Grandmasters) we have around, and all that experience claimed in hundreds and thousands of rooftop challenges and streetfights, it shouldn't be hard for a small school to start producing good fighters if it focused on the objective. If one beleives the advertising material of most WC schools, they know more about fighting than every MMA gym in the world put together.

Here in Australia, most of the good MT and Kyokushin fighters come from a small number of academies who focus on competition. The others don't do as well because they are not as committed - or (more to the point) don't have competition as a primary goal. Same with BJJ. It's a nonsense to assume that vast conglomerations will lead to better fighters. The aims get diffused, concentration on them lapses and success is elusive.

There's no point trying to draw the Wing Chun world together (as if) to share knowledge and produce an elite group of fighters. Elite groups are produced in small concentrated environments. not from the sort of thing being discussed here.

If you are worried about WC's image in the MMA fraternity (and basically why bother if you don't feel inadequate - do you?), it's turned around by a small group competing and succeeding, not through some vast interstyle conglomeration and insular intra style tournaments.

Either accept whaqt you do as it is or get out there and change it yourself. Either way, there's no point in whining about what you don't have.

[t_niehoff]

anerlich wrote:

There's no point trying to draw the Wing Chun world together (as if) to share knowledge and produce an elite group of fighters. Elite groups are produced in small concentrated environments. not from the sort of thing being discussed here. . . .If you are worried about WC's image in the MMA fraternity (and basically why bother if you don't feel inadequate - do you?), it's turned around by a small group competing and succeeding, not through some vast interstyle conglomeration and insular intra style tournaments. AN

A splendid observation. TN

Terence

[Phil Redmond]

Maybe I'm mis-interpreting what you wrote, but I have never felt inadequate. I wasn't attacking anyone with my idea.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by anerlich


KWJ at 3-0 in MMA is a reasonable WC/T rep, is he not? You are being a bit unkind. AN

I never knew about KWJ's record until now. I wasn't being unkind. that's not my nature. I wish there were more like him. I am presently training people for "full contact" fighting like San Shou. They will be using WC principles and techinques. Sorry to read that you don't think my proposal would work with WC people. We will compete in other events.

.

[hunt1]

Phil you should not be surprised by the responses. Almost a year ago on the forum I asked the members if there was any interest in participating in an event that was being put together here, Florida. The organizers were 2 WC schools 2 SPM schools and a CLF school. The response form all the great WC fighters and teachers on this forum was so overwhelming ( zero ). It was very sad that many more SPM people were interested in participating than WC people there being far fewer SPM players overall.

Good luck in training your students.It is very rewarding when a student wins a tourney or comes out on top in a fight. I am sure you will produce excellent results.

[anerlich]

Phil,

I didn't mean to be insulting or question your motives or competence. My question was directed generally. I'm glad you are jumping into a competitive arena, very best of luck with it.

What ticks me off is a sentiment (not saying you have it) that Wing Chun is somehow under attack from grapplers and MMA people. Anyone who feels that the style they do or they as a practitioner is deficient should take psotive steps to rectify this.

But most of it IMO is "sticks and stones may break my bones".

I also think respect begins at home. The notion that we should all go off to some remote location to train in secret, pool our knowledge, and then burst onto and lay waste to the next Pride or UFC won't go. More like get a couple of young turks at your place willing to have a go in a small local promotion, then move on to bigger and better things. Word spreads and your peers see that you are serious and competent.

All the stylistic purity and "fighting to restore the honour of the style" is IMO best left for the plots of Hong Kong cinema.

[Phil Redmond]

All the stylistic purity and "fighting to restore the honour of the style" is IMO best left for the plots of Hong Kong cinema. AN

Anerlich,
Maybe I was thinking that when I made the post. Thanks for the dose of reality.

Hunt1,
Please let me know by email if and when there would be another such event.

[AndrewS]

A line from a BJJ buddy of mine on why a bunch of BJJ players have gotten their *sses handed to them in MMA competetion ('cos BJJ has taken flak for 'losing the aura of invincibility')-

'They went to prove the validity of BJJ. They should have gone to fight.'

If you wanna play a game, learn the game.

Andrew

[yuanfen]

I saw a brief shot of Royce doing some boxing routines including speedbag. In the second Shamrock fight- Shamrock who had adjusted to bjj busted Royce's face with a single quite crude punch and Royce wasnt the same for the rest of the fight.

Does anyone know what Helio's current health is - as far as neck and spine?

[kj]

Originally posted by AndrewS
A line from a BJJ buddy of mine on why a bunch of BJJ players have gotten their *sses handed to them in MMA competetion ('cos BJJ has taken flak for 'losing the aura of invincibility')-

'They went to prove the validity of BJJ. They should have gone to fight.'

If you wanna play a game, learn the game.

Well put (by you and by your BJJ buddy).
- kj

[Merryprankster]

yuan,

It's my understanding that Helio still rolls regularly, and is still instructing. I suspect that he's more or less as fine as can be expected for somebody of his advanced age. He's in his late eighties I believe.

[anerlich]

[deleted, double post]

[anerlich]

Merry,

he actually turned 90 earlier this year. There was a big celebration in Brazil, attended by his family, celebrity students like Tommy Lee and Ed O'neill / Al Bundy, and many others. Helio gave a demonstration of BJJ, apparently.

[anerlich]

AndrewS,

Your bud's comment is indeed pertinent.

My favorite and certainly one of the more interesting MMA fighters, Sakuraba, comes from a lineage of Pro wrestling, "which everyone knows is crap". The guy's had some great fights, inlcuding the defeat of four Gracies and Vitor Belfort. He'll do anything, grapple, roundhouse to the head, leg kicks in the guard, cartwheel and aerial passes, you name it. He even put Vitor on the floor with a spinning back back kick.

Yeah, learn the game. Sakuraba more than anyone else learns from his less successful fights. After Alan Goes fought him to a draw fighting with kicks from his back and effectively nullified Saku's attack, Vitor tried the same tactics in his fight and got destroyed because Saku had found a way to nullify those tactics. He could have stuck to stylistically pure tactics that didn't work, but instead changed his game completely.

Sorry for the rant, but I loved those fights.

[S.Teebas]

Hey anerlich,


What tactics did Sakuraba use to overcome Victor Belfort? I saw that Allan Goes fight...Sakuraba looked pretty frustrated when Allan used that tactic.

[yuanfen]

Thanks MP. helio himself says that he was 4 years old in 1914
in an interview. From what I recall Royce once challenged
Gene Labelle and Labelle laughed it off saying it would be more
appropriate to line up with Helio.

Labelle is something else in his own right. I am sure you know the "story" of a well known actor and martial artist who challenged Labelle - but got choked out by Labelle.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I completely agree with Anerlich's remarks about Sakuraba's amazing ability to think (and act) outside the box, learn from past fighting mistakes...and defeat some of MMA's best fighters...his "pro" wrestling background is Catch wrestling for the most part....but the important thing (for Wing Chun folks like us) to learn from watching someone like him is that REAL fighting ability is not just about close-combat striking and kicking...you need many weapons in your arsenal if you're going to keep up with today's world (and I'm not talking about becoming a jack-of-all-trades, but rather a master of "several")....Too many wing chun practioners believe that WC by itself is enough ...IT'S NOT TRUE!

[reneritchie]

It's my understanding that Helio still rolls regularly

I had a chance to watch some of the outtakes from Choke and part of that was Helio rolling with the late Rockson Gracie. Rickson Gracie got in there as well. Rockson looked merciless (but he was still very young), and Rickson considerate. Very cool to see.

The Gracies have always fought to prove their art, and in a way they did- they changed the way much of the world thought about MA. They forced the world to change, and now they are being forced to change by the world in return, incorporating wrestling and Muay Thai, etc. (be interesting to see Rhyron and Rener when they debut).

I love Sakuraba as well (though I think Bustamate is my current overall favorite), though he needs to rest. They were talking about putting him right back in with Vanderlais, which would be crazy, IMHO (but they'd probably put him in with Sapp...) Should be a cool fight with Nino Shembri.

Pride on Sunday should be a great show all around.

[AndrewS]

Sakuraba is beyond technique or style. The other Japanese pro wrestlers gone MMA may have some of the moves but Sakuraba is true 'formlessness'. He thinks, creates, attacks, utterly comfortable in the ring, so calm he can exhibit slapstick humour in the midst of a MMA fight. Trying to claim him for a style is silly; the guy has gone beyond.

Andy- the Goes fight- Goes has a much better guard than Belfort. While I agree he learned a lot from that fight, I don't know if I'd say he learns from past mistakes so much as present situations. Watching Sakuraba fight, you can almost see him think and solve problems in the ring- I take the Goes fight as a good example of this. Sakuraba is one of those people for whom it is most clear his mind and heart are his best attributes.

Andrew

[reneritchie]

AndrewS just mongolian chopped correctness. Sakuraba will win by high kick 8P

[anerlich]

The principal technique used which made the difference IMHO was Saku grabbing Vitor's foot, extending and moving the leg, than chopping it with a vicious leg kick. you could hear each smack of shin on thigh on the audio . This went on for ages and Vitor's left outer thigh became just one big bruise.

Vitor tried to KO him off the bell with a big punching blitz, but Saku weathered the attack, took him down. Then Vitor tried to emulate Goes, but Saku was too classy to take the lumps he took from Goes a second time.

After the start of round two Vitor could hardly stand up. Saku was basically hitting him at will with roundhouse kicks to the head and body and punches, and a beautiful spinnig back kick to the gut that didn't put him down immediately but his legs gave out about a second later, and two more later in the round. The rest of it was Vitor falling to ****roach position and Saku kicking his legs mercilessly, the ref standing them up and then Vitor falling down again. Saku was starting to look annoyed and tried cartwheel passes, a jumping sidekick to the supine Vitor and a jumping stomp which Vitor blocked, fortunately for him, his foot just missing Saku's groin, fortunately for Saku.

A crystal clear win on points to Saku.

Not that exciting a fight in itself, but fascinating to watch how Sakuraba comprehensively defeated a tactic which he had had great difficulty with in a previous match.

I agree with AndrewS and Rene. The guy pulls off things he just thought up on the spot, will try anything and gives a great show. One of the most interesting fighters in the sport.

[captain]

in all honesty [and i mean that],it's not the fighting in the nhb/mma events that i object to,but the attire.those little
swimming pant [ettes],i man surely a grown man can find
something better to fight in.i like the bouts,but i faintly
embarrased at the sight of such a near camp spectacle,its's
so mid 1960's batman.

now i made a splendid comment about organizing a wing chun
camp [camp as in school] and i meant this.it should be done,a
summit.

[Ultimatewingchun]

AndrewS: I was saying that Sakuraba's original pro wrestling background was primarily catch-as-catch-can....but you're right..at this point in his career he really is "formless', and it is a beautiful thing to watch. You don't know what to expect next from him. Maybe in his next fight he'll be throwing vertical fist punches with his elbows close in towards the center of his body?!

Wouldn't that be a ......blast?....Sorry, poor choice of words!

[AndrewS]

Hey Victor,

Sakuraba with a vertical fist would be a sweet sight. Somehow, I think that if it ever happens, he'll do it in a way to shock us all- maybe go pure Matrix and backflip off the ropes while chain punching.

While technically Sakuraba must have had some good exposure to the catch and shoot traditions of pro wrestling, I think it was the pro wrestling itself which probably taught him a lot. While some pro matches are called during the match (i.e. the ref calling instructions), others choreographed to various degrees, there's a lot of room for improvisation and some good pro wrestlers make up much of the match as they go. This implies a good bit of creativity, ability to read, and lots of control. Add to that some athletic conditioning that regular combat sports often don't get near (serious tumbling, hard-core falling), and the expectation that one be able to complete a match on a fairly serious injury, and you have a very dangerous package should it get aimed in a fighting direction. Moreover, those guys aren't afraid to lose (its part of the gig) so perhaps both in training and the ring they have less ego.

Just some thoughts. Sakuraba is someone I've spent a lot of time wondering about.

Andrew

[Ultimatewingchun]

AndrewS: Liked your last post..the points you made about having to improvise, be creative, have an ability to read situations in a heartbeat's time and react..tremendous conditioning and hard core falling are right on the money...but the point about NOT BEING AFRAID TO LOSE should be explored further...perhaps even a whole new thread!

Pro wrestlers like Sakuraba and so many of the great ones before him really understand the importance of acknowledging it when a great move his been performed against them...chi sao is supposed to serve that purpose much more than it's meant to be competitive...always thought chi sao competitions at tournaments were a total joke for that reason, but I digress...

It's only THROUGH THE ACT OF ACCEPTING DEFEAT when a superior move has been put upon you do you develop the ability to react quickly and improvise...because you're no longer struggling to"push back", so to speak; and can now IMMEDIATELY try to find another route to deal with the situation....or perhaps..just recognize and accept the fact that you've been defeated...A person begins to change (for the better) only after he accepts what he is...or where he is..RIGHT NOW.

[anerlich]

in all honesty [and i mean that],it's not the fighting in the nhb/mma events that i object to,but the attire.those little
swimming pant [ettes],i man surely a grown man can find
something better to fight in.i like the bouts,but i faintly
embarrased at the sight of such a near camp spectacle,its's
so mid 1960's batman.

Some gender role confusion, perhaps? Say that to Ken S, Igor V or Vanderlei's face.

Wrestlers have been in speedos and tights for decades. It's sensible to wear clothing that can't be gripped or bind you.

I think it's far more ridiculous watching a buch of gwailos poncing about in pantaloons bound at the ankles, Chinese jackets with frog buttons, sashes and "kung fu" slippers (the least functional footwear for training that exists IMO, with the possible exception of stilettos and inline skates).

Some MMA guys do make a joke of it though. Elivis Sinosic used to wear purple nail polish on his toes, a tongue stud, and do weird things with his hair. He's pretty cool though and definitely not gay - a couple of my buds train BJJ with him.