Overkill on Wing Chun Forms Practice.

[Ng Mui]

I tend to dismiss the all arts that spend more than half of their instructional time on repetitive movement forms (prearranged dances and katas) in each class.
Wing Chun forms are a moving text book of principles. each class should spend only a small amount of time on them and then should spend the bulk of training on application.
I know guys that do SNT for two hours everyday.
To me thats like reading a recipe for two hours without ever cooking.

What are your thoughts.

[S.Teebas]

I think doing the forms is good, and you can gain lots of benifits from doing them.

What exactly do you mean by:

should spend the bulk of training on application.

Define some applications.

[kj]

Originally posted by Ng Mui
I tend to dismiss the all arts that spend more than half of their instructional time on repetitive movement forms (prearranged dances and katas) in each class.
Wing Chun forms are a moving text book of principles. each class should spend only a small amount of time on them and then should spend the bulk of training on application.
I know guys that do SNT for two hours everyday.
To me thats like reading a recipe for two hours without ever cooking.

What are your thoughts.

I tend to dismiss approaches that dismiss the forms as a superfluous component of training. ;)

I'm not much of a proponent for prearranged drills or dancing in context of training either. :rolleyes:

To understand the forms as training is to understand something important about both, IMHO.

I have never heard the likes of Yip Man, Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, Tsui Sheun Tin, or Wong Shun Leung as advocating to rush through the forms or minimize time on them. To the contrary, those who have developed high levels of skill - the ones I know and the ones I've heard tell much about from those who knew them - advocate spending as much time on slow, informed, and proper practice of the sets as possible. Good gung fu takes both gung and faat, with no shortchanging on the gung.

Besides that, forms and solo practice may be all that New York CMA'ists are legally permitted to engage in any more. :mad:

That's a quick and dirty summary of my thoughts, anyhoo.

Regards,
- kj

[anerlich]

Wing Chun without forms ain't Wing Chun.

There are other schools (or so I'm told) who spend more than half of a class on chi sao.

Training in an MA has many facets. You need to do a lot of different things, in balance. Not JUST forms, JUST chi sao, JUST predetermined or random drills or JUST sparring.

I tend to dismiss the all arts that spend more than half of their instructional time on repetitive movement forms (prearranged dances and katas) in each class.

You're talking about individual schools, not arts IMO, at least if you are referring to WC.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

"You're only as fast as you are slow." - Tiger Mr. Wallbridge

The Qigong aspect of the forms isn't something to be discounted, imo.

I sometimes run through each form at the speed of slt's first section. It's very rewarding, as it helps me give my root a bit of extra attention, feel every little detail, and find new refinements by feeling misalignments and lack of flow.

Speed is often a mask for lack of proper structure. If we can't manifest our principles accurately along a set path at the speed of a relaxed breath, who are we to expect to manifest our principles accurately, at speed, in an infinitely dynamic universe?



Xiao3 Meng4

[jesper]

Its not the time spend.
But how you choose to spend your time which is important.

[TjD]

at my school we dismiss excessive form training in class for a simple reason: you can do it at home.

class time is for 2+ man drills you can't practice at home.


but that being said, forms are extremely valuable to your wing chun training. if you can't do them perfectly - keep working

[reneritchie]

IMHO you need a balance of Kuen Tao (boxing sets), Chi Sao (Sticking Hands), and San Sao (Free Fighting).

And ideally, with in a given class, the section of Kuen To you work on should relate to the Chi Sao and San Sao, so you learn to deconstruct, examine, and reconstruct, making the skill your own.

[tparkerkfo]

To dismiss the importance of the forms is to show ignorance.

Don't get me wrong though, forms will not teach you to become a fighter. They won't teach you how to apply the techniques. For that you do need to look away from the forms in such activities as lop sau, chi sau, gor sau, and others.

What the forms teach is everything from the abstract to reality. They teach you simple and complex body mechanics. They ensure you do the techniques correct. They show us the important techniques through repitition. They teach us basic concpets. They teach us balance. They teach us to relax. The keep the art whole. The plant the seeds for conitued growth. There is soooo much they teach.

If they forms were not important, why did Yip Man teach them? Why does TST, arguably the best living wing chun person alive today, advocate them so much? But probably more important to some one who beleives the forms are useless, why do the fighters advocate them?

Do yourself a favor and see what they can offer. If they were useless, they would have been dropped a long time ago.

Tom

[Matrix]

Originally posted by TjD
at my school we dismiss excessive form training in class for a simple reason: you can do it at home. What is "excessive"? While I agree that you can, and definitely should, practice them at home, most students need correction and refinement under the eye of their sifu. Otherwise, you may just be practicing error. What is the point of that??? I'm sure that you've heard this before, but it's not practice that makes perfect, but rather perfect practice that makes perfect. That's an important distinction, in my opinion.

Having said this I totally agree that 2-person drills are vital to in-class training. It's something that solo training cannot replace.

I would also say that the earlier you are training, the more forms should be emphasized. For beginners, I don't think half of the class on SLT is excessive at all. One size does not fit all.

Cheers,
Matrix

P.S. insert your LOL here.

[45degree fist]

everyone knows that every motion in every form is expressing a practical fighting application. While repeating the form is helpful to ones training, many practitioners lack the knowledge of the application behind the forms. When this is in your mind it shows through in your hands and body. thus making forms take on a whole new meaning, my kwoon devotes one day a week focused on combat applications from forms. all questions are answered and tested through a two man drill. upon learning and reviewing an application I noticed that the energy expressed in certain parts of the form change not just to a harder energy but sometimes a softer one. Also the motions become more exact and realistic.

[S.Teebas]

certain parts of the form change not just to a harder energy but sometimes a softer one

Which parts are hard and which are soft?

[45degree fist]

Im not speaking about any particular motion. I was stating that the energy usually changes after the application of the motion has been trained and uderstood.

[45degree fist]

my exact quote was

"I noticed that the energy expressed in certain parts of the form change not just to a harder energy but sometimes a softer one."

not

"certain parts of the form change not just to a harder energy but sometimes a softer one."

[TjD]

Originally posted by Matrix
What is "excessive"? While I agree that you can, and definitely should, practice them at home, most students need correction and refinement under the eye of their sifu. Otherwise, you may just be practicing error. What is the point of that??? I'm sure that you've heard this before, but it's not practice that makes perfect, but rather perfect practice that makes perfect. That's an important distinction, in my opinion.

Having said this I totally agree that 2-person drills are vital to in-class training. It's something that solo training cannot replace.

I would also say that the earlier you are training, the more forms should be emphasized. For beginners, I don't think half of the class on SLT is excessive at all. One size does not fit all.

Cheers,
Matrix

P.S. insert your LOL here.

excessive is simple. if your sitting in a corner only doing forms, you've wasted gas by driving to the school. if you do your forms to warm up, thats fine. if you do your forms a few times to practice so you can get sifu to look at them, thats fine.


altho my school does seem to have a nasty habit of making beginners do siu lim tau and not much else for a month... sometimes shorter, sometimes longer - it depends how much they practice. a certain level of skill is required before beginners can get really into it

[desertwingchun2]

Forms practice is one more tool to train WC. Some WC families don't have the SLT/SNT - Chum Kiu - Bui Jee. What ever the training methodology you follow balance is the key.

I have heard it said that the forms are empty. I tend to keep that in mind when discussing the "importance" of forms.

-David

[45degree fist]

Totally agree with you Desert. I have noticed that many wing chun guys run through the form as if doing a dance. there is no emphasis on the actual purpose behind the motion performed.

But it sure looks pretty.

[KenWingJitsu]

"should spend the bulk of training on application."

i COULDN'T AGREE MORE

[Matrix]

KWJ,

At what point do you feel a student should start sparring? Do you think that there is a place for forms, or are they a mainly a waste of time? Are there basic skills that a student should learn before sparring, or is it more of a "throw them into the deep end of the pool, and see if they can swim" approach? Just curious.

Matrix

[KenWingJitsu]

At what point do you feel a student should start sparring? Do you think that there is a place for forms, or are they a mainly a waste of time? Are there basic skills that a student should learn before sparring, or is it more of a "throw them into the deep end of the pool, and see if they can swim" approach? Just curious.

If your inquriy is indeed serious, then here's my serious reply.
I feel a student should begin "application sparring" as soon as they begin studying wing chun. More on this later

Yes there is absolutely a place for forms and they are not a waste of time. They do teach you the body positons you need to perform techniques correctly. But......and this is the big but....if all your time is spent on forms and not on learning where they fit into real conflict, then it is a waste of time.

I would never advocate throwing a student in to spar without a ccareful progression. Which brings me to my first point on "aplication sparring". The greatest gift in Wing Tsun/Chun, is the gift of being shown EXACTLY how to use what you're learning in the forms, in Chi-sao, and in two man drills.

My ideal class would go like this:
Begin with forms practice, several times depending on what level the student/s are at. break the form into "sections" and show each students the applications in the movements of the forms. Applications to "real" attacks.
Then Students practice solo basics. Footwork, punches kicks hand positions etc.
Then Students, practice those applications and basics with a partner. then, the partner starts to give them "real" energy,.............so now the student is using those basic movements to "really" defend themselves form their partners attacks...in an isolated format.
Then Chi-sao........then the "applications" of the movements in chi-sao......students get to "see" how it applies for "real".

Then Lat-Sao. (I realize not all WC branches do Lat sao, but IMO its the greatest tool for bridging chi-sao into realistic applicaton).
After Lat Sao, then Students perfom "aggresive Lot sao". Commited attacks, with commited defenses.......using good form and structure. Level of intensity is based on student level. Isolate techniques used. Progressing carefully.

As students get more comfortable bringing the techniques from the forms at the beginign of class to "isolated sparring" [Lot Sao], then they IMMEDIATELY see the application of the forms and chi-sao and how they can apply it as soon as they learn it. The lot-sao can then progress into isolated sparring (Using one goal or one "tool" or one attack/defense, or a combination of a couple of attackes/response. Keeping it spontaneous, is what makes it isolated sparring. Adding more "tools" & responses as students progress.

The "aggresive Lat Sao" and the isolated sparring are....well,...."applicaition sparring". The goals can be flexible, but in the end it becomes spontaneous. This is how I'd end the class.
So in ONE class, you've done forms, solo work, partner drills, Chi-sao Lot sao and Isolated (or integrated) sparring.
I would recommend this for EVERY class.

[Matrix]

Yes, my questions were serious.

You say.."But......and this is the big but....if all your time is spent on forms and not on learning where they fit into real conflict, then it is a waste of time." I couldn't agree more. Forms are a means to an end, not an end in and of themselves, IMO. If your goal is to look good by posing in the mirror, then take up bodybuilding.

For the most part, I agree with everything you've said. I would probably start beginners off a little slower, nailing down the basics before moving on in the progression, but beyond that I don't see anything that we don't do.

Thanks for your time, and detailed response.

Matrix

[wingchunalex]

ng mui, i totally agree with your statement. forms help you learn techniques. they don't help you learn to apply them naturally. I would say the same thing about chi sau. there needs to be more than just chi sau and forms. wing chun is rich in drills.

[canglong]

It seems as if this thread were started indicting kwoons or individuals that spend all day training forms and nothing else. I have yet to witness such a kwoon or person. Most people on this forum readily admit to not having enough time to train do to other committments or priorities which is perfectly understandable. So to suggest that we as a whole are placing too much emphasis on the forms and not enough on application is somewhat misleading IMHO. SLT/SNT is the foundation in which your wing chun is based on when practicing your wing chun and starting at the beginning and working your way all the way through to wherever you are at in your particular stage of training could never be a bad thing. I believe if you are having problems with your forms you most likely are having trouble with your application. At the same time if you are having trouble with your application you are most likely having trouble with your forms. Solution keep practicing your forms.

[KenWingJitsu]

"At the same time if you are having trouble with your application you are most likely having trouble with your forms. Solution keep practicing your forms."

Or better yet, if you are having problems with applicaitons, keep practicing your applications against a resisting partner...

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Or better yet, if you are having problems with applicaitons, keep practicing your applications against a resisting partner...

Solely training against someone resisting wont necessarily reinforce good wing chun habits though. Perfect practice makes perfect, need to know what to train.

[KenWingJitsu]

Solely training against someone resisting wont necessarily reinforce good wing chun habits though.
Uh,...yes it will. It will force you to develop good habits against someone who's resisting. The more you practice, the better you get. There's no such thing as "perfect practice"......unless your partner is giving you no resistance then you can be as 'perfect' as you want.

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Uh,...yes it will. It will force you to develop good habits against someone who's resisting. The more you practice, the better you get. There's no such thing as "perfect practice"......unless your partner is giving you no resistance then you can be as 'perfect' as you want.

We want to train good wing chun habits however. You need more than just "this worked against someone who's resisting" to develop those. Perfect practice isn't about being perfect, it's about making the practice perfect. Asking questions and making choices to improve your wing chun, learning is a progression. Resistance is very important, I'm not disagreeing. But it's only half of the equation, and not always appropriate.

[t_niehoff]

burnsypoo wrote:

Solely training against someone resisting wont necessarily reinforce good wing chun habits though. Perfect practice makes perfect, need to know what to train. EB

KenWingJitsu wrote:

Uh,...yes it will. It will force you to develop good habits against someone who's resisting. The more you practice, the better you get. K

------------

I think you're both correct. From my perspective, the "forms" are more than a catalogue of techniques and they do more than "teach you the body positons you need to perform techniques correctly." They permit us to focus on and develop the various component parts of our method, and then to progressively combine, link or, mix these with other component parts of our method. For example, in the SNT/SLT the YJKYM is -- and should teach one -- the fundamental body mechanics for receiving and generating WCK-type of power. This is combined with various bridge-hands that rely on this body-structure and power, which are then used in concert with the four body-methods, and certain specific bridge-mechanics for an overall effect. The idea is not to just learn the forms, but use the forms to learn. TN

Yet forms alone won't give us the *feedback* we need to develop these things and make them functional. Application does. Application begins with drills (san sao, chi sao, lop sao, etc.), and the drills should get progressively more and more alive (adding more resistance, more variables, etc.). And then we need to take these things and apply them in a fighting situtation. Each step of our application education will inform our form practice, and our form practice will, in turn, inform our application. TN

IME it is not possible for someone to pick up all of this via strict application, as application involves a great many other variables which makes it difficult to isolate certain aspects (to train them) and difficult to reproduce consistently (repetition is the key). TN

Terence

[reneritchie]

Sparring in and of itself, like drills, forms, chi sao, etc. won't make you any better or worse. It could re-enforce bad habits as your struggle to "win" rather than improve, or it could force you to make better habits.

What makes the difference, IMHO, is correction, both self and sifu. Whether it be sparring, drills, forms, or chi sao, you need to *conciously* work to make every movement better than the one before, and when you make a mistake, you need to stop, review, correct, train into reflex, and then implement the training (and return to step 1 if you can't). In the beginning, you'll need a lot of expert guidence to do this properly (pride can be the enemy), but as time goes on, the WCK system can auto-correct if you invest in it.

[desertwingchun2]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Uh,...yes it will. It will force you to develop good habits against someone who's resisting. The more you practice, the better you get. There's no such thing as "perfect practice"......unless your partner is giving you no resistance then you can be as 'perfect' as you want.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Burnsypoo Wrote:
We want to train good wing chun habits however. You need more than just "this worked against someone who's resisting" to develop those. Perfect practice isn't about being perfect, it's about making the practice perfect. Asking questions and making choices to improve your wing chun, learning is a progression. Resistance is very important, I'm not disagreeing. But it's only half of the equation, and not always appropriate.

Originally posted by reneritchie
Sparring in and of itself, like drills, forms, chi sao, etc. won't make you any better or worse. It could re-enforce bad habits as your struggle to "win" rather than improve ...


I was getting ready to post, but then I read these and found no need to. But I did anyway. Good points Rene and Burnsy!

-David

[Marky]

Hi all,

In my opinion, self-criticism is the most important attribute for a wing chun practitioner. With it, you won't develop "bad habits".

[KenWingJitsu]

Just to clarify, I'm NOT advocating "just sparring". This should be clear in my second post.
"Just" sparring only teaches you how to get your @ss whooped.

"Just" forms teaches you how to get your @ss whooped.

Technique practice, (forms/solo drills, partner work/drills) that PROGRESS into sparring (resisting partner), lead you to being able to use your techniques under pressure, and the more you do it, the better you become. Hope that clears it up.

[t_niehoff]

KenWingJitsu, I'm with you.

Terence

[old jong]

A good technique/application should not allow the opponent the opportunity to "resist"...If he can, the technique needs some work on.

You should also be able to defend without "resisting" or struggling.If you have to,you need to work on it too.

This comes from precision and relaxation,not some "Rocky Balboa" type of training.The forms are a big part of our training but they must be complemented by a lot of two men drills if they want to be understood as foundations of our system.

Vigourous chi sau when you only throw good strong shots with good lines and forget about the futile slaps is a must too.
Just my two poor canadian cents! :rolleyes:

[AndrewS]

KWJ makes an interesting point about an ideal class-

I use a similar teaching progression (unsurprising as we have several of the same teachers), but would mention a pretty important bridge that requires particular attention- isolation of body mechanics. In moving from form to free application, I think a period of discrete non-competetive work and instruction on the mechanics to be used, and their relation to the core mechanics of Wing Chun is pretty much necessary. The strategies of this art work very well- one can easily see the 'Wing Chun' the Belfort victory over Silva a few years back- but it is first the mechanics and then the sensitivity derived from those mechanics which truely make our art special. While pressure is very good and will teach you to apply, I am of the opinion that if you work at a speed/pressure level such that you are unable to feel your own mechanics or the other person's force, all you're doing is flailing, and the practice will build little skill.

After free application, particularily with people who are still trying to grasp the basic body usage of Wing Chun, I think it's useful to return to more cooperative practice, to clean up the mistakes uncovered within free application.

FWIW,

Andrew

[Matrix]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
"Just" sparring only teaches you how to get your @ss whooped."Just" forms teaches you how to get your @ss whooped. ...............Hope that clears it up.
It does for me. Thanks.
Matrix

[Ultimatewingchun]

In my opinion, if you're spending more than about 15 minutes per class on form practice you're "swimming on dry land". There are too many other things to be done , skills to be refined, various drills , chi sao, sparring , etc. to be engaged in if you truly want to prepare yourself for what an actual confrontation might entail.

Similarly, I believe that more than about 20 minutes or so of chi sao in any one class presents the same drawbacks as I mentioned about forms; and to take it a step further, taking the various moves that come from the forms and chi sao OUT and working on the APPLICATIONS of those moves in an actual combat situation is something that gets sacrificed when too much time is actually spent on the forms or the chi sao itself.

[kj]

From my perspective, the forms or chi sau can never be practiced too much, and I would distinctly not advocate minimizing time or emphasis on these. However, I agree that it is entirely possible and generally the case that too little time will be spent on anything or even everything ... forms, chi sau, application analysis and practice, gor sau, sparring/fighting*, etc..

*[Terms applied loosely and dangerously.]

Time is the single most important and constraining resource for all of us. Therefore, and I think most of us will agree, appropriate balance is of highest consideration. However, "splitting the time evenly" or in some fixed proportions may not provide the optimum balance, and immediate needs do not remain constant. IMHO, without minimally "enough" time in the sets and chi sau on an ongoing basis, the remainder of work will never fulfill its potential and may even supplant the essence of Wing Chun with something unnecessarily superficial. I also believe that the optimal proportion of time on forms vs. chi sau vs. other activities will vary throughout the stages of a given practitioner's development.

From my own personal experience, application work continuously informs me where my errors are, where my skills are weakest, and why I need much, much more time in the forms and chi sau work. It is an iterative and integrated process. Forms training and chi sau are my primary training vehicles, not merely "reference dictionaries,” supplemental exercises, or time wasted going through some motions. They are the meat and potatoes of my Wing Chun. These are where my Wing Chun capabilities are built; to forgo or foreshorten time spent in forms and chi sau is for me to be pennywise and pound foolish, and ultimately cheats me of excellence in the application realm.

If we look at those who excelled before us, and also at those who failed to meet their potential, what patterns can we observe? Our data sets and perspectives on this will of course differ. My own teacher has been an avid Wing Chun practitioner for over 40 years, and even he still learns and improves through daily practice of the sets and chi sau. I think it is fair to say that most who touch his hands would agree he does okay.

Of course my perspective is colored by the view of Wing Chun as a lifetime process of deep development rather than a quick fix.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Ultimatewingchun]

TRAIN LIKE YOU FIGHT...FIGHT LIKE YOU TRAIN.

I believe this should be one of the most important guiding principles for any martial art school, not just wing chun; but as regards overkill on something like chi sao or form practice - how often are you going to see a fight begin after the two opponents have first stood directly facing each other square on with their hands/arms touching exactly as you see it done in two-arm chi sao?
NEVER!

So how much time do you want to devote training in this position?

ANSWER: Only as much time as it takes to "get the techniques down" and not one second longer...because you have to devote a MUCH LONGER PERIOD OF TIME translating those techniques (from the forms, chi sao. the wooden dummy,etc.) into a more realistic application in terms of what could happen in a real fight.

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Victor,

Here are my opinions for what they're worth...

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
So how much time do you want to devote training in this position?

ANSWER: Only as much time as it takes to "get the techniques down" and not one second longer...

For some of us, I know for me at least, it takes quite a bit of time and bitter gung-fu to even get one technique down. I don't even dare say that I have any technique "down". So the fact that I still try to spend time on my forms (still not nearly enough though) shouldn't be so out of the ordinary.


because you have to devote a MUCH LONGER PERIOD OF TIME translating those techniques (from the forms, chi sao. the wooden dummy,etc.) into a more realistic application in terms of what could happen in a real fight.

I think there is more than one way to look at this. If my technique doesn't readily work from my set, one way to look at it is that I have to translate it to a more "realistic" application of it. Another way to look at it is that I haven't trained my technique good enough to the point where I can use it effectively. I'm a fairly lazy person, so I would love to attribute the fact that my techniques don't work to the form's unrealistic applicability. Then there's less reason for me to do the forms and I can do sparring and chi sao all day long, which happens to be a lot more fun.

Unfortunately, my instructor is able to use techniques and principles straight from the forms. And the funny thing is, the more his application mirrors the forms, the more effective they are. There's no mistaking his Wing Chun for kickboxing. So I am faced with the fact that my forms are not up to snuff after all and I have to spend more time and hard work workinging on them.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[kj]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
TRAIN LIKE YOU FIGHT...FIGHT LIKE YOU TRAIN.


This is general enough for me to agree with.


So how much time do you want to devote training in this position?

ANSWER: Only as much time as it takes to "get the techniques down" and not one second longer...

[Red text enhancement is mine.] "Technique" is one of the least important elements of the Wing Chun I am working to develop. And to the degree that I do need to rely on and resort to "techniques," successful implementation is dependent on other critical elements of personal development. This may be at the crux of our respective experiences and POVs.

One size doesn't fit all.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
how often are you going to see a fight begin after the two opponents have first stood directly facing each other square on with their hands/arms touching exactly as you see it done in two-arm chi sao? NEVER!

Inside/Outside, Inside/Inside, Outside/Inside, Outside/Outside.... can't really picture many other possibilities.

You not fighting humans or something?

[Ultimatewingchun]

As long as it takes can mean a lot of things to different people...here's an example of what I mean: let's say during double arm chi sao practice you train your larp (lop) sao grabbing hand technique each time you see or feel your partners arm(s) have crossed over the centerline...he doesn't try to resist or counter you when you do this enough times so that you get it down FAIRLY WELL....then from a sparring stance and distance you come in and perform the larp sao on his lead hand (now you're getting just a little closer to REALITY since the starting position is more like what an actual confrontation might entail).
Then your partner practices the same thing. Then you go back to the original chi sao drill and now each time the larp sao is attempted the response is to defend with tan sao...enough times so that each of you gets the tan sao defense down FAIRLY WELL... then go back to the "sparring" type drill from apart I described and this time the emphasis is on the tan sao defense...after this the two of you can take it even one more step closer to reality by agreeing that the larp will be done with such speed and force so as to make it difficult to counter...etc.

Step by step you bring it closer to reality without EXPECTING TO BE ABSOLUTELY PERFECT FIRST...in terms of your execution of the wing chun techniques...you can always go back time and again to try to make your larp and tan (in this example) better by doing chi sao; but at least you're getting in a closer to reality type training pretty much right from the get-go!

[kj]

Hi Ultimatewingchun, and thanks for your clarification. Yes, that does sound like a drill and technique oriented approach. In fact used to practice that way myself. It seems much more common than how I train now.

I realize the way I have chosen to practice is not for everyone. There are lots of reasons, otherwise everyone would be rushing to do it, LOL. For me, the changes in my practice have dramatically improved my Wing Chun and performance. Of course improvement is such a relative thing ... I really stank before, now I stink less. And as Joy referenced elsewhere, still "... miles to go before I sleep."

Vive le difference, and may we all find the way to become the best we can be.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yuanfen]

Kenwingjutsu sez:
Just to clarify, I'm NOT advocating "just sparring". This should be clear in my second post.
"Just" sparring only teaches you how to get your @ss whooped.

"Just" forms teaches you how to get your @ss whooped.

Technique practice, (forms/solo drills, partner work/drills) that PROGRESS into sparring (resisting partner), lead you to being able to use your techniques under pressure, and the more you do it, the better you become. Hope that clears it up.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Depending on meaning of sparring- much that I can agree with)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
KWJ also sez:(snipped)
TRAIN LIKE YOU FIGHT...FIGHT LIKE YOU TRAIN.

(a generality- insufficiency asa principle))

I believe this should be one of the most important guiding principles for any martial art school, not just wing chun; but as regards overkill on something like chi sao or form practice - how often are you going to see a fight begin after the two opponents have first stood directly facing each other square on with their hands/arms touching exactly as you see it done in two-arm chi sao?
NEVER!

(You apparently misunderstand the nature and purpose of chi sao-IMO anyway. How often do you see someone hanging from a chain- coming after you- never- but the heavy bag can have it's uses to a boxer. How often do you see a boxers head upside down like a speed bag- bit a speed bag has its uses. How often do you see anyone witha head guard and 16 oz gloves- coming at you on the street. Never- but it has its uses.
GOOD chi sao- not sloppy swimming around or just hitting- is an integral part of wing chun. If you by pass doing lots of it- you are alraedy ina hybrid activity.
again- effectiveness varies with the individuals involved. You can have a bad mmaist, bjjist or a wing chunner))

[Sam]

Hi Liang, I totally agree with you. My Sifu James cama not only takes his fighting applications but the whole system (internal chi movement for explosive power)out of form practice. Cama Sifu is able to take a sequence of techniques or concepts and translate them into a multitude of applications for fighting. He is also able to explain every movement on many different levels i.e. internal/external. Cama Sifu also teaches live two man forms based on each form as well as two man exercises. Chi Sao is also done on Moi Fa poles, with chi gerk, San Sao push hands, blind folded, and free form with body armor. The forms evolve to transmit the loose chi hand which elevates your fighting techniques for live pointing and Fa Ging.

[KenWingJitsu]

lol I didn't say "TRAIN LIKE YOU FIGHT...FIGHT LIKE YOU TRAIN."...but I absolutely agree with it.

And as far as one cannot do 'too much' chi-sao or forms???? Nonsense.