View Full Version : Could shaolin style boxing beat Muy Thai?
02-22-2001, 09:33 AM
If a shaolin student were to go against a muy thai boxer, and both of them has about the same level of experience, who do you think would win? Why?
Fish of Fury
02-22-2001, 11:22 AM
a 60 year old shaolin guy may very well beat a 60 y/o muay thai person, and that means a lot to me.
i've also heard (unconfirmed...anybody know?) that muay thai is virtually undefeated IN thailand, but when invited to other countries eg. malaysia a few years back the local kung fu guys beat them.
02-23-2001, 12:10 AM
What about a muy thai boxer training in the U.S? Who do you think would personally win, if they had just about the same experience?
Fish of death
Yeah, I heard of an unconfirmed generalization that Mui Tai fighters are undefeated ONLY in the country in which they train in.
Accordingly, Shaolin Temple, to respond of you post, this infers that Mui Thai fighers who trains in US may be defeated by local KF guys in Malaysia and ANY other part of the world that is not US. Makes sense doesn't it?
Fish of Fury
02-23-2001, 09:18 AM
thanks ego.good to see you are still adept at totally missing the point
02-23-2001, 04:24 PM
May be im jus biased but i persoanlly think that someone who has trained in shaolin kungfu with a top class sifu can beat other martial artists, no matter what style they practice!!!There is no other martial arts in the worls which such variety of techniques and methods of trainingQ!!!shaolin fighters can grapple, use chin na ,iron body etc in kung fu we have many ranges of fighting and we shld be trained well enough to beat most opponents.
bhudda bless you
WRONG..WRONG...AGAIN. 7STARSTEPNORTHERN PRAYING MANTIS is not a shaolin kungfu,but because a junior mantis practitioner beat a shaolin ABBOT ,then did the monks realise the superiority of this style and they adopted this style as one of its own,and changed its stance using the monkey stance .Did you all know that GRAndmaster mas oyama took a group of his best students to THAILAND to test them out ,only to have 80% of them losing the fights to muay thai .It was then that he introduced no weights division and full contact sparring in its schools and tournaments
Fish of death,
Noooo. actually I'm right on target. if the reports can be confirmed, then it is a case of proof by induction. If it is true for i=1, i=2 and i=3.... then if it is true for i=N, it is proofed to be true for i=N+1. (It's along these lines anyway, its way way way too late at nite in NY to go into the mathemathical details).
Apply the same logic to the mui tai case and you've got it!!!
02-27-2001, 02:47 AM
I feel Muy Thai training can develop a strong, effective fighter faster than most traditional CMA.
It probably takes a year to two years of consistent training and conditioning to turn out an effective MT kickboxer.
While a shaolin student may be a reasonably capable fighter after two years of study, I think most would agree they've still got a ways to go before they could be considered indicative of their art.
2 First year students: Muy Thai wins
2 Fith year students: Pretty darn even
2 Tenth year students: CMA wins
2 Twenty year students: CMA wins, no contest.
Muy Thai is tough and effective. It's easy to comprehend, and to apply. Kung Fu may take longer to develop, but it's for life.
Yes, this take has been blatently general, and may not be popular with some. Like the title states, it's just an opinion.:)
03-02-2001, 12:11 AM
I think overall, muy thai could beat most of the Chinese Boxing style. For example, some praying mantis styles focus more on speed and use several actions to take down his opponent. While doing all of this, a muy thai boxer would just execute on strong roundhouse kick and it would all be over. That's why I think muy thai boxing would work the most.
03-02-2001, 02:17 PM
...Muay Thai boxers also deal in some stand up grappling. When they get in close, there are repeated elbow strikes and they will lock up your arms and head to continue hitting with their legs. Right, much faster to learn and apply. The advantage they will have is the ability to take a hit. Anyone not trained in thai boxing tends to crumble at the first leg kick they recieve. You can see this if you watch espn2 kickboxing, and one fighter comes from karate or something else where they don't train for pain. But I still agree with you on the long term. I wouldn't (or couldn't) want to train that hardcore into my old age!
03-25-2001, 09:08 AM
i say Muay Thai ahve the advantage 'cuz they have very BASIC moves and they practice 'em over and over and over again ... :)
So, if we get Shaolin guys who fight/spar as much as the Muay Thai ppl, then we might have a slight advantage 'cuz we got more tools to use ..
BUT, in the end, it is the fighter, not the art .. that determines who wins .. :)
i have to agree with wutangstyle to an extent the shaolin systems are very powerfull espcailly the animal systems.. taking the attitude of the animal makes the systems very powerfull.. drunken is a next powerfull system because its very unpredictable.. but i think the most powerfull kungfu is natural style or some call it nature fist Tzu Jan Men this type if kungfu is funny because some people believe that some animal systems are natural styles.. or they can be taught to be natural styles.. i believe this.. the natural styles i speak of that i know are natural are eg. rolling stone, razor grass, water,
again what makes these styles powerfull is the attitude.. the attitude of a stone rolling down a hill the attitude of grass swaying.. and lets not forget water.. if you cross a river you must get wet.. if a stone gets thrown in a pond there will be ripples.. and one of the most important thing about learning natural styles is for them to become just that natural.. as natural as walking..
And i think another thing which makes kungfu a great art is the varity of systems.. systems like 5 animal pattern 5 differnet attitudes and 5 differnt styles makes it very unpredictable as well and very hard to defeat.. muay thai is a good art but it also focuses on alot of power and many kungfu systems use that to there advantage...
Oh and WutangStyle some people think that alot of the natural systems come from wutang monks :) no joke..
and if you interested in getting more info on the natural styles goto http://www.dokungfu.com/Natural.html
[This message was edited by ope on 03-27-01 at 09:03 PM.]
the style is irrelevant,the best fighter would win.""it's not the dog in the fight ,it's the fight in the dog""--in response to the comment about karateka not being used to pain???????-------my kempo master is japanese who also trained in goju ryu karate. he placed a strong emphasis on developing the mind through "pain training", pain was common in our training,he hit us often--with his feet,hands and a shinai(bamboo kendo sword),but he never damaged us --such was his level of skill and control.his philosophy was that you learn through feeling,not through some psuedo intellectual-shallow-false understanding.you feel and you know,you think and you think you know. this argument is common on these threads--what style would win??? blah,blah fu--en blah.--if a guy with no martial arts training fought a guy with a black belt in????? who would win?????------i've seen a guy with no training deal to a guy with a black belt in ????-he won because he was better--he was meaner,quicker, tougher and just loved to fight.the black belt lost because he was seduced by the illusion that his style and level had given him attributes that he did not possess and was unable to assess the formidability of the guy that stomped him. some guys/girls are natural fighters,growing up in new zealand i came into contact with many maori and polynesian people who are proud and warrior like,and many love to fight.other thigs must be taken into account when assessing a fighter ,style is just one of them.oossuu!!!
I agree, alot of people have the natural ability to fight.. and thats a great thing about kungfu and the natural style you develope your natural ability to defend your self i mean weather your taken a Martial art or not if a person swings a stick at your head you would put up your hands to protect your face this is natural.. now buy studying kungfu you learn to Master your bodies natural ability to defend itself so in essence you master your body and your mind... now unstead of just putting up your hands when some one swings a stick you can get out of the way and work a technique etc.. i dont mean to insult any arts here but i have found that karate is more forced inside you.. but kungfu is more natural and instead of being forced inside you it becomes a part of you naturaly.. that way you can react more natural in a fight...
inyo i agree with you in the pain part.. we trane traditionaly and there is alot of pain invovled..it helps to condition your mind as well as your bodie..
message to "OPE'---hi from western australia-- in regard to your point about karate being "forced inside you'',and not teaching naturalness.my experience in karate training is mixed and up until i trained under a japanese master i had a similar view to you.all my instructors were european and they pretty much taught by rote,everyone was stiff and rigid,and there was a lack of understanding of the importance of 'ibuki'(breathing)the most natural thing that we do.overall their understanding was shallow and their primary focus was on sport karate which is useless on the street where there are no rules.i love karate ,and all martial arts.their prmary function is to develop one's character not win a tournament.any way thats my rave---if you can ,try reading "THIS IS KARATE" by MAS OYAMA the founder of KYOKUSHINKAI KARATE--HE MAKES SOME EXCELLENT POINTS ABOUT THE CONNECTION BETWEEN CHINESE KEMPO AND OKINAWAN TE,the combination of both became Karate.unfortunately a lot of the circular movements of kempo were removed when karate was introduced to mainland japan (for many 100's of years okinawa was part of china.)and this is why it seems to be linnear and rigid.(depending on the style)another good book is "THE ZEN WAY TO THE MARTIAL ARTS''by TAISEN DESHIMARU a zen and kyudo(archery) master he dicusses at length the inner meaning of the martial arts. respects--inyo .--oossuu!!!
03-28-2001, 08:10 AM
I have a question for all of you:
If two thai boxers with the same experience fought, who would win? One of them would have to win, right? So..what does this question prove about the style?
Well, it says that the boxer lost and it says that the other boxer won. You can't compare two different sytems this way either...unless one is that much more superior and undefeatable. It still comes down to the person..
How's that for nonsense?
03-28-2001, 06:43 PM
to answer the original post.
any and all things are quite possible.
It is just as possible for a Muay Thai fighter to defeat a sil lum fighter as it is for the opposite.
it simply comes down to the individual and how much of themselves they have put into their art, how well they know their art, and how well they can apply their art in combat.
I studed karate in the states maybe thats why maybe the instructors suck.. but lemme say this and i think i have said this all ready under another topic, That you must remmeber there is no superior systems or styles, only superior principals. so it is true that you could take most MA and teach them to be natural.. but at the same time the techiques are important as well, if a system has better techniques then karate or vice versa then the art with the better techniques would have the advantage...
And we also have to look at this the style of kungfu i practice is over 4000 years old, now if the style wasnt any good i dont think it would of lasted this long.. The Natural first (the style i do) has the highest and best reputation in china and central asia, for fighting skills and ability. most natural fist style practioners were never defeated. i dunno if you have heard of them but the 5 northern tigers were living proof of this... i am fortunate enough to learn this style because its so rare and not only rare but in jeorpardy of extinction this is because these styles were always secret and secretly passed down, there are very few schools which teach it and they dont just teach it to anyone you must be studying with the instructor for a very long time before he even considers it..
[This message was edited by ope on 03-30-01 at 09:39 AM.]
03-29-2001, 10:43 PM
Finally some people realize that styles don't win fights people win fights. All this, would drunken shaolin beat mantis or can kung fu beat Muay Tai crap is getting old.
Talking isn't going to answer anything. If someone wants to test his or her style against other styles that is great. However, whether they win or lose has little to do with their style or the other persons style it generally comes down to who is a better fighter and has more fighting experience.
03-31-2001, 09:29 PM
my brother studies muy thai under some thai intructor and he's been with him for about ten years i have four years over him in kung fu but every time we spar i whip him out but thats not to say muy thai is bad his teacher is very good i seen him whip out a few kung fu guys but he was beaten by a xing yi guy but that doesn't count cause soft can always over come hard
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