Sifus...what was your instructor test like?

[Andy Miles]

I'll start. We have two testings. One for your Sifu to become elligible for national testing and the other in front of a national testing comittee.

The former is the killer. I started carbo loading the night before and took an athletic herbal forumla. For breakfast an orange, internal body purifiers (chi pills) and ibuprofin. at 7:30AM stretching and testing began at 8:00. 30 grasshoppers for a warm up. 250 rocking push ups, 600 frog jumps, and 600 crunches in each direction to begin the physical training. Then came 10 minutes of horrid endurances. Many are also seen from shuai chiao, like rhino looks at the moon, others were holding your leg in the air or sticking it out in kicking positions for 10 minute blocks. stretching buddah, 8 immortals, swallow flying. then of course, low stances. After this I was crying pitifully as my legs seized up. I did bicycles in the air to get them moving again and everything became strangely blissfull and spiritual. I then did 30,000 punches in under an hour in a horse stance, 150 single leg squats, 25 handstand push ups. Wrist training, 2,500 kicks, the last few hours were spent on the brink of fainting, sending my chi to required body parts to stay moving and awake. Passing out would have been no escape. Vomiting wouldn't have spared me either. Time had no relevence. I transcended pain and pleasure. At around 8:00 pm after doing all of my material and apps after physical exhaustian, I was joyfull. I went home to take a hot bath, herbal tea, and relax. My greatest joy was the spiritual lessons I learned that day. To this day, I feel pain differently. I know its there, its just not bad anymore. Its pure experience. I'm not afraid of it. I feel that I have conquered pain. Time sped up and slowed with my mental state. I could stretch it out or shrink it depending on mental energy (shen). This has been a great asset in my life.

The national test was more stressfull. There was a hurricane in Florida, but we all went anyways. I had come too far to let something as minor as a huricane get in the way. We had trained hard and it showed. Afterwards we did the "traditional" buffet, which I am sure was not cost effective for the restaurant owners. I had well over 9 plates. This end was the begining of my training in the system. I became a beginner and have been learning ever since.
I know to some of you, this seems impossible. Believe me, when I first heard the requirements I was even more astonished. The IBP kept my blood clean and boosted my chi. At that time we only had access to these pills once every few years and they were only for our iron body training. http://www.8step.com/product/masterad.htm

I still take these daily. (Don't take if nursing,pregnant,following surgery or if you have a viral infection.)


Thats my story of testing...whats yours?

[BaldMonk]

Congratulations on your accomplishment. It sounds impressive. I've got a couple of questions. What are 'grasshoppers' and 'frog jumps'? I ask because they sound like something I might want to add to my workout. Also was there a sparring component to your testing? Who is your teachr/style?

[phil]

bald-headed monk, get your ass back to baji and stop playin' around!

:D

actually, i'm hoping to see this guy today! he's in boston.....

P

[TkdWarrior]

u r still alive?? :D
cool man...
-TkdWarrior-

[SaMantis]

Frog jumps I know too well ... if this is your version AM:

You squat all the way down with both feet flat on the floor, then place your hand behind your head, back straight. Then jump up and out so your legs straighten and then come back down in that squat. Rinse and repeat.

On a good day I can do like ... 3. :(

[Andy Miles]

the same, except I stay on the balls of my feet.

grasshoppers= updowns in football. Touch the floor with your hands, checks to the ground, feet back to hands and stand up. Try to come up as fast as you fall.

I did this years ago; I wasn't the first to do this and I am certainly not the last.

How about you other sifus? Was it more/less formal? Similarities,differences?

[Mr.Binx]

30,000 punches in under an hour? That's roughly 8 to 9 mantid hand strikes every second nonstop for 3,600 seconds... :confused: How was the count kept? It seems highly unlikely to me that one would be able to keep a solid count of such rapid punches without the use of electronics, much less perform a strike with proper form. If you don't mind my asking, which branch of Mantis was this testing for and what nation is this committee based in?

[BaldMonk]

'Sup Phil?

Jade Fox is not my teacher. You know I got mad love for Mantis. I'm teaching a Mantis class and I'm always looking for new ways to torture my students. Little off topic but in the other forum we were talking about how a new jack got pasted by some boxers. These types of exercises Andy's talking about are essential to being able to pull off techniques in a combat situation (IMHO). By the way Happy belated New Year. Danny and I did a two man routine that sorta evolved into a free spar when I threw a Chiao Twie (my chinese sucks you know the technique I'm talking about) when I wasn't supposed to. Makes a big difference when you throw it at the front of the leg instead of the back. He went down but the knot on my shin is just going away.

Let me know how your visit with Andy goes. He seems authentic. Send him greetings from AK.

[carly]

This macho/masochistic instructor test stuff is silly.
Any real sifu knows how good or accomplished his student is or isn't, and has observed and tested him thousands of times during his training.

[Andy Miles]

www.8step.com South Dakota, USA

8-9 a second is no problem. You can ride a bike and have as many rotations. If the body is suble and the waist is a wheel, it is easilly done. They were sun punches. Like wing chun chain punching.

For counting, I count one side, so 5 per side, per second. Then you have people helping you count. Its a blur, but If you concentrate on one side, its easier. I had 2-3 people helping me count. You get into a rythm and watch the clock. Its not machismo, its letting go.

[MightyB]

At least 10 years of training.

A clear demonstration of understanding of all the forms (body expresses precision and jing in all movements) and a record of successfully teaching the forms to students.

A thorough understanding of Mantis theory and technique. The ability to use mantis theory and technique in an unrehearsed confrontation. The ability to teach Mantis theory and technique to students.

Gaining the respect of your Sifu and Sihing. Gaining respect from Sifu outside of your school.

Diligence, patience, and perseverance.

[SaMantis]

I've only heard rumors of what my system's sifu test is like ... they're always scary-sounding, like doing a bunch of tam tui's (one-legged squats) balanced on a coke can, etc. As to their being true, I don't know.

All I have is the general description, which is that the candidate's skill, strength and knowledge are tested. Those selected to test have demonstrated a good attitude, dedication, knowledge and ability already. So, not much help there, I guess.

[MightyB]

Andy,

I'm curious,

What is the time requirement-- number of years that you spend in the system-- that a student has before they are eligible for the 8 step Sifu test?

Is it a seperate program that what other students are teaching? Is it just something that somebody can walk in off the street and sign up for?


SaMantis
Your Sigung is a kung fu super master. Master Chan could and can still do things that make you say "wow". It wouldn't come as a suprise if he set extremely high standards for his apprentice Sifus.

[Mr.Binx]

From what I've witnessed firsthand from Wing Chun Kuen practioners I can definately see an individual performing 10 punches/second. I was under the impression that you were performing the fundamental from-hip-to-chest-line hand strike in rapid succession as opposed to a speedbag-stytle punch. :o

[TkdWarrior]

sun fist punches as in vertical punches or one of those secret methods of training??
-TkdWarrior-

[Andy Miles]

they can be speed bag type punches or chambered to chest.

Samantis- There are instructor students and regular students. Regular students go at their own pace. Instructor students go at Sifu's pace. It has about a 90 percent drop out rate because of the impossible demands. You can work your way all the way to being a Sifu at your own pace and this will take 10 years. Time depends on the person's intensity, intelligence and how much detail they can pick up on. If you are constantly practicing every waking/dreaming minute and are practicing and helping teach class for 5 hrs a day in the kwoon, you can do it in 3 years. This means that chi is moving small circle in math class while your in a horse stance to look like your actually sitting in class, while you take good notes. If your intensity is less, it will take you longer. I wrote my term papers with shaking legs. I didn't use a chair.

I could sign someone up for instructor training off the street, but I wont. Its better to let them develop their foundation first.

To learn how to do these impossible things, wait for my next article on the theories behind traditional 8 Step Training.

[SaMantis]

Thanks AM, your explanation helps me understand the tough requirements.

I could sign someone up for instructor training off the street, but I wont. Its better to let them develop their foundation first.

LOL, I had a friend who signed up and couldn't hack the first 3 months of regular classes. "Stance training, stance training, stance training, this is crap, I wanna fight!" But at first he couldn't stop talking about how he wanted to be an instructor someday and was angry that he couldn't sign up for an instructor-track (or black belt type) program.

MightyB, thanks. Yeah, it's hard to slack at the temple because at anytime sigung could walk up and just start doing tam tui's like mad, a person more than twice my age, without a problem. His instructors would need to "walk the walk," too.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by MightyB
At least 10 years of training.

A clear demonstration of understanding of all the forms (body expresses precision and jing in all movements) and a record of successfully teaching the forms to students.

A thorough understanding of Mantis theory and technique. The ability to use mantis theory and technique in an unrehearsed confrontation. The ability to teach Mantis theory and technique to students.

Gaining the respect of your Sifu and Sihing. Gaining respect from Sifu outside of your school.

Diligence, patience, and perseverance.

Well Said.

Regards,
UM.

[Mr.Binx]

I don't know if I would be able to put my faith in a trainer that made Sifu within three years (the individuals persona not withstanding). Trust in the school that provided the instructorship to that individual would be just as suspect to me. There are certain martial lessons that reflection time provides which physical/social training time cannot compensate for. No offense is intended or implied. Just honest thoughts from my personal perspective.

[Edit: typos and punctuation]

[BeiTangLang]

I have to agree with you Binx. There is such a thing as putting in time no matter how good you are or how much you train. There is a quality that only over time one will obtain (previous experience in MA are not).
Best Wishes to all,
BTL

[Andy Miles]

so putting 2 hours in a week for 10 years is better than putting 5 plus a day for three years? After 3 years of training I was taking out "sifu's" if 10 years. This doesn't even count the plethera of TKD blackbelts.

It really doesn't matter. I'm willing to bet that you have never trained that hard and I promise you will lose to anyone who has. In order to do that their are certain things you must understand. You can't do that without perfect body movement and combining the 6 harmonies and 7 stars.

Chan Dong San, Wei Hsiao Tang...two things seperated them from their peers and those who trained longer. Knowlege and intensity. ACMAF sifus have both.

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by Andy Miles
so putting 2 hours in a week for 10 years is better than putting 5 plus a day for three years? After 3 years of training I was taking out "sifu's" if 10 years. This doesn't even count the plethera of TKD blackbelts.
****
Um,...no,..I didn't say that.@ hours per week is just wasting everyones time. I would however rather train under someone that took good solid instruction for 2 hours per day & worked on the material another 2 hours or so per day for ten years than putting 5 plus a day for three years...
****

It really doesn't matter. I'm willing to bet that you have never trained that hard and I promise you will lose to anyone who has.
****
I did not say anything derogotory, but in my opinion, the instructor I mentioned above would most likely wipe the floor of the 3 year sifu. I did not say it was me LOL! Chill a bit!
****

In order to do that their are certain things you must understand. You can't do that without perfect body movement and combining the 6 harmonies and 7 stars.

Chan Dong San, Wei Hsiao Tang...two things seperated them from their peers and those who trained longer. Knowlege and intensity. ACMAF sifus have both.
*****
What is an ACMAF sifu? I think I missed that part......

[MightyB]

so putting 2 hours in a week for 10 years is better than putting 5 plus a day for three years? After 3 years of training I was taking out "sifu's" if 10 years. This doesn't even count the plethera of TKD blackbelts.

This comment shows a lack of discipline and humility. That's the main difference between 10 and 3 year sifus.

Besides, less than 1 year of San Shou and MMA training students could easily wipe the floor with most 3 year 5 day a week "sifus". You are right about the intensity/training part.

I'm willing to bet that you have never trained that hard and I promise you will lose to anyone who has.

I do train that hard, and I did lose to someone who trained that hard. Fighters fight. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. All fighters age. That's life.

You can't do that without perfect body movement and combining the 6 harmonies and 7 stars.

And no 3 yr student can do this. It's reflection over time that gives you this kind of understanding no matter how intensive your training program. That's why masters train for their entire lives. Imagine the insights that you gain at 20 or 30 years. 10 is nothing, 3 is less.

two things seperated them from their peers and those who trained longer. Knowlege and intensity.

Agreed.

----

Nothing personal, but you did start this thread with an advertisement, and a question. Don't get mad when you get answers that conflict with your personal views.

[Andy Miles]

Any Sifus here want to comment.

Mighty B and the rest of you begginers, I don't really care what your opions are. I was asking the other Sifus on the board what their test was like. Unless you have done this, please post on another thread.

I'd also like to add, that 3 years is the beggining, not the end. Their are 20 more years of cirriculum. I continue my training in medecine and martial arts every 6 months. Our fighting reputation stands on its own. Whether you agree or not in theory is irrelevant. The results stand by themselves.

[MightyB]

Hence the commercial on KFO.
Boston SanShou will wipe the floor with ya.

--------
Beginner? I guess I can accept that. 10 years with the best Sifu in America--- yes, I do feel like a beginner.

In my school, 0f 8 people that were named to be future Sifu (I am one of them), only 4 remain. 2 will probably make it -- they are better than most Sifu, and I'm not one of them. Oh well, I can accept that. It's better to live in reality and it is for the good of the system.

------

Tainan does real 8step. I wonder what he thinks of all this...

[SaMantis]

Hmm, AM, you're right, most sifus DON'T care what my opinions are. They're usually less touchy about it ... I guess that's the difference between a 3-year and a 10-year sifu.

I've just crossed the 3-year mark. Some of the students I started with practice 6 days a week, 3-8 hours a day. In the summer they take the full-time training course (12 hrs/6 days). While they're more advanced and more skillful than I am, they are many years away from becoming sifus. 10 years is the norm in my system.

There's more to becoming a sifu than knowing how to fight or memorizing forms. If a student hasn't figured that out by his/her 2nd year, well ... they're probably doing taekwondo.

[BeiTangLang]

LOL,...Cr@p in,Cr@p out. Sorry more "real sifu" didn't answer; but then the good ones don't usualy discuss their tests with the world....maybe you are acception, but I do not know you so I will not even care to guess. I will say that id you did 30,000 perfect technique punches in an hour, you have supreme-ultimate ablilites over any sifu I have witnesed anywhere in the world either live or on tape ever. My hats off to you.
Best wishes to all,...but this thread is too much. I will just mod from the shadows hereafter.
~BTL

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Andy Miles
so putting 2 hours in a week for 10 years is better than putting 5 plus a day for three years? ...


Reminds of the Tortoise and the Hare story.

May I ask Mr. Miles, what is your interest in becoming a 'Sifu' ?

Kind regards,
UM.

[spiralstair]

Andy,

The real sifu test is the one taken by time...there is no way to 'pass' it in 3 years, 5 years, 10 years... it's a 'life test', and you get the grade at the end.

This is not to belittle your reported accomplishment, it sounds like they really 'turned up the heat' to create some instructors. Some things just 'cook' better at a lower temperature, it gives the flavors more time to mix... a chance to be more than just the sum of its parts. That which is cooked rapidly at a high temperature usually looks done on the outside, but remains raw in the middle.

[Mr.Binx]

Hehe... Spiralstair, I like that. Pretty nifty analogy. I want lasagna all of a sudden...

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Andy,
I don't know you and I'm sure you meant well in your post so don't take this as a personal attack. Judging by your other posts you seem to have a good deal of knowledge but 30,000 punches does not make a good Sifu. It makes you good at doing a lot of punches. I don't mean to put down the test you took but it doesn't seem to address martial knowledge or the ability to pass it on to others.

When I first started reading this forum there was a post similar to this (from another 8 Step Sifu) that seemed to me to be mostly bragging. It's great that you shared your testing experience with others but in doing so you've shown yourself to be a 'young' (as in training time) Sifu. Whether you meant it or not your post sounds like 'I can do 30,000 punches, how many can you do?' which is probably why no other Sifus have responded. They have no interest in comparing themselves to others.

The Wah Lum Sifu test requires you to be conditioned, profecient and knowledgeable in the system, and able teach others. The ability to teach others being more important than how good you look. Yes, we actually have to pretend Master Chan is a student and teach him something. Talk about a weird feeling.

Which brings up something I've been wondering about. Why is it that the best sports coaches (boxing, football, figure skating etc.) are not required to be the best at what they coach yet Martial Arts teachers are expected to have a room full of awards and trophies?

[Shen Zhou]

I have to agree with SS on his post that it takes a life time just to become a sifu. I remember reading an old article by Sifu Brenden Lai which he says that (not quoted) every one wants to be better then a sifu, but to be a sifu takes like Spiralstar stated a life time. Fist you must be the head of your own school, second you much have the respect of your students, third you much have the respect of the martial arts community, next you must be up age and elder short of speak, lastly be able to express if not all technics within your system a great, great portion of them. I have to agree with Lai Sifu on this and the others that have said that three years is not enough time to become a sifu but I am sure that you are a good instructor. A sifu if like a father figure, a role model, someone who leads by example in life and in martial arts. I am not saying that you are not moral but its also takes a life time to figure life out the older you are the more you "should" know. but anyway man what a hell of a TEST...

Respect
Shen Zhou

[Tainan Mantis]

We don't have any specific "become a shrfu" test, but there are many little tests.
Some are short term, like homework.
While some are long term projects.

It seems to me that my shrfu's "tests" are just another way of teaching since I learned so much from them.

The first one I was given was the week I started training.
Master Shr gave me a notebook for writing Chinese characters.

That day I had performed the form Chi Shou 5 times.
So in the notebook he wrote the character Zheng and the date.
This character has 5 strokes so it signified that I had done the form 5 times.

Then he said every morning after practice I should write down the "zheng" character in my notebook.
"But you have to actually do the form 5 times!" He stated.

Every couple of years he would take a look at the book.

I got a lot out of this lesson/test(?). But it is hard to put it into words.


A short term test.
He would teach a 2 man drill.
Then we have to write the manuscript for the drill and show him the next day.
He would look and make corrections.

I feel that this test was mostly to train us in being able to preserve the art for future generations. It gave a deeper understanding of the concepts by knowing the specific names of each block, grab and strike.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

If you want to called Sifu, you probably aren't ready.. If your focus is in helping others learn the Art you have dedicated your life to, you are probably on the right track..

ALL the tests fall short of the real test, the test you give yourself.. it's the test of a life well lived, a system you've adopted as a way of living.. the knowledge that you have honed yourself to a fine edge and are capable of helping others realize their same potential.. You know you've passed when others address you as Sifu, and mean it.. not just because you passed a test, but because of the person you have become.. it's the journey you have made and the price you have paid that makes the test valid.. The invitation to test signifies your Master's faith in you.. passing it, shows your faith in yourself..

Hua Lin Laoshi (Wah Lum Teacher) has passed his Sifu's test with G'Master Chan Pui, more importantly (IMO) he passed it with his peers, with his students.. I don't know how many trophies he has, but i don't care.. what matters is that he is gifted at passing on the knowledge, at helping others find out who they really are.. I am honored to call him my friend, and respect his perspective on this issue.. When you look at the history and lineage of any respected traditional system, 3 years will likely get you past the basics.. SpiralStair has a very appropriate analogy.. do you want fast-food or a well-prepared meal? Hua Lin Laoshi is how he see's himself, "Wah Lum Teacher", Sifu is how the rest of us respect him..

I am not a Sifu, i spent 12 years at the Temple (Wah Lum) learning what Master Chan was willing teach me of his internal systems (the previous 20 or so years in external systems led me inward).. i watched as so many came and went, some gifted and with much potential, some not.. but, it was only those willing to struggle through the adversities (there were many) that made it to Sifu.. it is a signature of character as well as strength and knowledge.. The first time MC told me to lead the advanced Tai Chi class while he sat and watched nearly killed me.. not because it was difficult, but because i realized he had put faith in me (and surprised me, too), and i would do anything to make that faith justified.. (it seemed there simply wasn't enough air in that room to support my pounding heart and heaving lungs that morning) :) Was it a test? I don't know, but.. i was certainly testing myself..

So, now that i have rambled.. what i believe is that the journey IS more important than the destination.. the invitation to test signifies a journey well made.. Don't get hung-up in the words, be humble and gracious for the respect you have earned..

Be well..

[Skarbromantis]

ALL the tests fall short of the real test, the test you give yourself.. it's the test of a life well lived, a system you've adopted as a way of living.. the knowledge that you have honed yourself to a fine edge and are capable of helping others realize their same potential.. You know you've passed when others address you as Sifu, and mean it.. not just because you passed a test, but because of the person you have become.. it's the journey you have made and the price you have paid that makes the test valid.. The invitation to test signifies your Master's faith in you.. passing it, shows your faith in yourself..

Thats the best post I have read on this forum, TaiChiBob, thanks!!

[SaMantis]

Anyone who gets the chance to spend a bit of time talking with TaiChiBob would agree with you, SkarbroMantis.

TCB was one of my first instructors at Wah Lum, back when I was only studying tai chi, and the observations he made about what I was learning I've carried with me. He was the first to tell me not to just "do," but think, compare, ask. A very knowledgable and skilled practitioner who "walks his talk" and sets an example for everyone else.

:)